Called AT&T and Samsung about Carrier IQ - Android General

I called AT&T and tried to get technical support for my phone (Samsung Captivate) regarding the Carrier IQ. The tech support person I was talking to had never heard of it and insisted that I contact Samsung instead. When I insisted that she transfer me to someone in tech support who Had heard of it, she transferred me to Samsung herself...
I was the "second person" who had called about Carrier IQ, at least in regards to the guy I was talking to. He said he was researching it himself, but after going and talking to his supervisor, that the official line was that it was part of Android. In other words, Google put it there. Needless to say, I decided to talk to his supervisor...
After talking to the supervisor and, hopefully, convincing them that it would be really bad to accuse Google of doing this, when it's obvious that this is being installed on a carrier by carrier basis, and that it can be installed on non-google phones (like iOS), he basically said they don't even have a list of the software, in his technical services dept, that goes on the phones installed at the root level. He was initially convinced that if it were running that it would be in the list of running applications. I tried to explain that no, it would not be, that's why you can only get to it as root!
In other words, the tech support dept's at both AT&T and Samsung seem to know squat.
I'll be calling Samsung back in a week or so once they've had their oh sh*t moment and realized, that yeah, this is a big news story that's not going to go away and that maybe they should know what they're talking about and do something about it.

...that the official line was that it was part of Android. In other words, Google put it there.
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No, no, no. Google wouldn't put it there. It hasn't been found in Nexus devices and wasn't found in Android's source.

This found in the source code but on the phone, that this somewhat strange... not think...: p

Seems like both IT departments need a little "reorganizing". In my opinion they know it exists but if anyone acknowledges it, then they could be in for a class action lawsuit. Loose lips sink ships.

I have a captivate running a gingerbread leak, have run trevs ciq finder and the voodoo ciq finder trevs ciq finder found nothing but voodoo found a ciq class but said it was inactive, nothing seems to show up in logcat except for a class named com.carrieriq.iqagent.service.receivers, but when I do a search, I can't find anything, unless they have it super hidden.

Related

--- The all Carrier IQ related topics thread---

Wasn't sure if anyone would find this interesting or even if this is where it needs to be posted... I think it's a good step for consumers!
http://www.cfoworld.com/technology/26143/carrier-iq-drops-legal-threat-against-security-researcher
Might want to check this out too
http://androidsecuritytest.com/features/logs-and-services/loggers/carrieriq/
ALL OTHER THREADS WITH SAME TOPIC WILL BE CLOSED, THANKS FOR YOUR COOPERATION
I read that CIQ is just a subcontractor and that Google is behind this? Anyone have a source on that or more information?
http://www.mydroidworld.com/forums/android-news-rumors/10232-verizon-no-carrieriq-our-phones.html
Senate Step In
It's about time
http://gizmodo.com/5864218/carrieriq-gets-hit-with-senate-investigation
I hope this company goes down the pan. Unbelievable they got away with it for so long.
Sent from my Nexus S on CM9, Morfic's SEUV Kernel and some help from Tapatalk!
do our rooted/CFW phones have this?
Its messed up i agree that why has this company is still around. the government or someone is letting this go on. and yes a very good question does our rooted phones have this?
Pretty scary stuff tbh. Hope people get to the bottom of this soon
East2West said:
I'm honestly not that surprised. With all the bloatware that carriers are putting on our phones these days, I had been wondering if they had software like this in the background at their disposal. Yet another reason to switch to an AOSP rom.
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Yep, I normally only use a stock ROM for a few days anyway. Feel bad for the people who don't root and don't have a clue about it. Call me a conspiracy nut but I believe we are spyed on all the time anyway. I feel even more sorry for our kids because when they grow up, I believe surveillance will be everywhere.
Sent from my Nexus S on CM9, Morfic's SEUV Kernel and some help from Tapatalk!
benrees21 said:
Yep, I normally only use a stock ROM for a few days anyway. Feel bad for the people who don't root and don't have a clue about it. Call me a conspiracy nut but I believe we are spyed on all the time anyway. I feel even more sorry for our kids because when they grow up, I believe surveillance will be everywhere.
Sent from my Nexus S on CM9, Morfic's SEUV Kernel and some help from Tapatalk!
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+ 1 I believe it too
Sent from my SGH-I897 using XDA App
Just learned of this today. The story was featured on the local news, of all things! http://www.newschannel6now.com/stor...lions-of-phones-secretly-records-all-activity
I just bought a Samsung Captivate Glide, and this really does not help my comfort factor after reading through all of the terms and conditions agreements I had to go through just to get to use some programs. (yes, I did read them)
Phone seems to be too new to get rooted yet...maybe I'll go back to a dumb phone.
Yeah I think this company is f'd I've done a little bit of research and apparantly they are inviolation of some international treaties. Far as I know AOSP Roms don't have any of the carrierIQ crap because I asked that same question on another thread.
Sent from my Incredibly awesome Droid Incredible.
Well here is my experience with Sprint. I called customer support to find out how to remove this and the first woman I spoke to was incredibly rude and did not help at all. She would not even send me a printed copy of my contract, but instead referred me to a generic copy of the contract on the website - not even found in my account but under the plan. When she asked if she resolved my issues, I obviously said absolutely NOT. I was then forwarded to customer relations to find out why she didn't help me - this women was no better. She told me there is no way to opt-out unless I root my phone which would indeed void my manufactors warranty as well as my Insurance which I pay $8 x 2 ($16) a month for.
She did however tell me that there is an application on the market to remove CIQ called "Logging Test" which costs $1. It requires root access however, so we were back to square one. She told me that if I root my phone and anything happened I could accidently drop it in the toilet and they would still replace it since it wouldn't power on, they wouldn't know I rooted it. Little does she know, that application is for HTC Devices ONLY and not the Epic 4G Touch, in fact, if you attempt to use it on the Epic 4G Touch it will indeed (soft) BRICK your phone. WOW! Thanks Sprint, instead of giving me a simple opt-out to illegal wiretapping, you'd prefer that I root my phone, void my warranty, pay for an application to remove CIQ which will indeed (soft) BRICK my phone. What. The. Hell.
She then transferred me to another person, this time a technical support guy higher up I'm assuming. He gave me the same statement that Sprint released a few weeks ago about how they do not collect personal information and that "I need to do my research". The conversation with him went from bad to pretty decent actually when I explained to him what CIQ is, that they can log information on phones that are deactivated or on Wi-Fi networks, that it logs every single keystroak made and that is basically a rootkit. That the U.S. Senate has already sent them a letter demanding to know what information they collect, that a class action lawsuit is coming, which specific carriers have it on their phones and which don't and video proof of the CIQ App logging every bit of information on the phone (including hitting the home key, back key, dialing a number, sending a text and displaying https (secure) logins in PLAIN TEXT.
By the end of the conversation I had woken him up to what CIQ was and proven that I had done my research. He ended up being very nice and interested once he realised that the e-mail he got from Sprint HQ to tell customers was utter bull****. However, the fact of the matter is, they have no way at customer or technical support to help you opt-out - the only way to get it off your phones at the moment is to root your phone and install a custom version (ROM) of Android that does not have CIQ pre-packaged. Any other methods to remove it will be unsucessful and could brick your phone. If you root your phone or install a custom version of Android you have voided your warranty and if you pay insurance, too bad, it voids that too.
Best of luck to everyone who is stuck in a contract with Sprint. I just signed up 4-5 days ago so I still have a chance to cancel my contract and head on over to Verizon who does not install CIQ on their phones (see their statements in the news today).
Well your wrong about Verizon too. They do have CIQ apps. Recently I flashed a sense Rom to my Incredible to give it a whirl and I did log test app on it and it found them so I went back to CM7.
Sent from my Incredibly awesome Droid Incredible.
dirtsky said:
Well your wrong about Verizon too. They do have CIQ apps. Recently I flashed a sense Rom to my Incredible to give it a whirl and I did log test app on it and it found them so I went back to CM7.
Sent from my Incredibly awesome Droid Incredible.
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Are you sure this was a stock ROM from Verizon?
I can't say for sure if they do or don't, I'm just going off the statement that they released today stating that they are sympathetic to consumers who have it installed on their phones and that they do "not have Carrier iQ installed on ANY Verizon phones".
To Gigaom, a Verizon Wireless spokesperson denied any connection with Carrier IQ: “Any report that Verizon Wireless uses Carrier IQ is patently false.”
dbaybay said:
Are you sure this was a stock ROM from Verizon?
I can't say for sure if they do or don't, I'm just going off the statement that they released today stating that they are sympathetic to consumers who have it installed on their phones and that they do "not have Carrier iQ installed on ANY Verizon phones".
To Gigaom, a Verizon Wireless spokesperson denied any connection with Carrier IQ: “Any report that Verizon Wireless uses Carrier IQ is patently false.”
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My Dad has the Rezound on Verizon and I checked it front to back....NO CIQ installed (He's stock)
Pipsqueak approved this message
Privacy and security issues aside, who told the carriers they could use the airtime we purchased for their utilities?
I'm new to this and I bought the 200mb plan. I've got a data monitor and don't need more than 200mb by using wifi. However for every 15mb or so I used I'd be about 4mb off what the AT&T website posted.
Could this application be using that much of MY paid bandwidth without my permission?
Just an FYI... Carrier IQ just published a new press release.
dbaybay said:
Are you sure this was a stock ROM from Verizon?
I can't say for sure if they do or don't, I'm just going off the statement that they released today stating that they are sympathetic to consumers who have it installed on their phones and that they do "not have Carrier iQ installed on ANY Verizon phones".
To Gigaom, a Verizon Wireless spokesperson denied any connection with Carrier IQ: “Any report that Verizon Wireless uses Carrier IQ is patently false.”
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At the time I checked I was trying out Ice Cream Sense 1.2 for Droid Incredible. I asked the Rom developer about the CIQ apps but he said it shouldn't.
Sent from my Incredibly awesome Droid Incredible.
users won’t have to worry about keystroke recording– the only data used is not private data.
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And how do they sort between your data and private data? lies... my usage phone stats alone is a attack of privacy.
One question left unaddressed belongs to AT&T and Sprint. Both companies admitted that the software was present on their devices, but neither clarified whether or not users were charged for the data used when Carrier iQ software uploads analytical information to their servers. Users shouldn’t be forced to pay for data that was not used by themselves.
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Still busted.. and it still does it anonymously without your consent.
Carrier IQ = Busted
AT&T = Deep ****e
Sprint = now be Crawl
Seriously.. 14 DEC is Drop the Carrier IQ day.

Verizon / Samsung Corporate Contact Log

Updated 09/6/12 http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=31190482&postcount=81
This is a combined log of my attempt to get answers from Verizon and Samsung regarding the encrypted bootloader. I currently have a ticket with level III tech support at Samsung. It took a huge dog and pony show to get this far and I have had several forum members contact me asking to pass along info and ask questions when I finally get a hold of the right people.
I posted most of this in another thread, but it not where it should have been so I am moving it for a mod so we can keep that other development thread clean. Its 8am EST and Samsung Level III should be open in three hours as they are not staffed 24/7 like Level II/I.
For the record Samsungs Tech Support phone number is 800-726-7864
Just remember the rep you talk to regardless of what their position in the company is had no say in the encrypting of the bootloader. Its not their fault Verizon screwed us, please keep that in mind if you call. Using 5c technical words will get you past Level I but level II seemed to be on point. It took some manipulative games to get the guy to admit there was even a level III department; at first he told me level II was the highest I could go in tech support. Will update with more info when I have something.
I am also considering contacting the firm that handled the Motorola V710 lawsuit against Verizon years ago. We won that one and anyone who wanted got to trade in their phone and accessories for a full refund, no ETF, and if they wanted could also get a new device w/o extending their contract. I hate lawyers and would rather cut off my pinky finger then deal with them but it may be the only option in the end. Its like Verizon delivered us cake, then shot our dog and walked away. So mentally exhausted dealing with this crap.
Lastly, I was able to get a hold of Verizon corporate and had a low level executive call me back. This was before the device was released and we knew the bootloader was encrypted. She told me to save her number, and I am glad I did because once we found out about the lockdown I called her back and left VM. Should hear back from her Monday.
Verizon's Corporate Contact Info.
Verizon Corporate Office Headquarters:
140 West Street
New York, NY 10007
Corporate Phone Number: 1-212-395-1000
Corporate Fax Number: 1-212-571-1897
Original Post:
Ok, just an update. Level III Samsung tech support is not 24/7 like Level II/I. I have a ticket in the system regarding the issue and its been forwarded to Level III.
They will be in tomorrow (Saturday) from 8am (PST) to 7pm (PST) and I have to call back to get a hold of someone in the Level III department. I will keep dragging this up the chain of command till I can get some answers. Level II once again confirmed what we already know, Verizon did mess with the phone. Level II said don't bother with Fastboot because were not getting in that way. I don't know if he was lying but he seemed to know exactly what I was talking about when I mentioned the odin/fastboot switch.
One more thing to note, I am not sure I believe him but he said that they sent the phones to Verizon, and its Verizon that did the messing around not Samsung. I find it hard to believe Verizon was able to do this without Samsung support.
I don't have high hopes of getting anything that will be able to help us out of Level III but I will try. They have also lodged a my customer complaint and supposedly I am going to be getting a call back from someone from their corporate office in consumer relations.
I wish I could help more on the technical side but my experience only takes me to the point where everyone else has gotten with fastboot. I am however quite the people person when it comes to making noise with corporations and will keep up the good fight with Verizon / Samsung Corporate.
If there is anything specific you want me to ask Level III send me a PM by tomorrow morning and I will address it with them when I call. I know enough that I should be able to at least hold a conversation with them on the subject but more ammo would be great. I would also be willing to conference call with a repeatable dev/mod when I call them so that you don't have to jump through the two hours of crap I just did to get this escalated.
Post 2: (A reply to a forum member asking for an update)
I asked them if there is a reason I can't get into fastboot and the guy said because Verizon has locked down the device. I asked him "how" and "why" but he was unable to provide me with an answer to both questions. He then referred me to Level III as he said they were the ones who could discuss how it was done. I asked him if there was a way around it through odin using .ops he went silent for a while and said he had no information to provide on the subject and just reiterated that Verizon has made changes to the device software and I would have to refer to them regarding those changes.
With regard to the "why" question he simply said that Samsung could not comment on carrier practices only that Verizon requested the lockdown and that the phones were sent to them first to have it applied. He made it sound like Samsung told them to go take a flying leap and Verizon went ahead and did it anyway. Again, were talking about a rep here so take it with a grain of salt.
I talked about the FCC's Block C agreement regarding carriers not locking devices but the rep said he did not have a comment on the subject as he was just tech support. Block C is probably the only legal course of action we have but despite the FCC saying they were going to enforce the rule, we all know how the FCC could give a crap.
I am going to flat out ask Level III to do the right thing and leak a file for us to fix the issue. I may be nuts but I am not delusional and have no real expectoration they will help. I am however going to do my best to get them to slip something that may help a dev find a solution. If I can get at least a small puzzle piece out of Level III it might be the crack in the dam we need to blow open the floodgates.
07/11/12 Samsung Level III blew me off yesterday as well saying they were still looking into the matter. I called again today and finally received an official reply. Samsung says they have no information exactly what Verizon has done to the phone, they do not know exactly what is and is not signed/encrypted, and they have no further information. I have submitted a complaint to the president of Samsung USA but thats as far as I could go with Samsung. They have closed my case and can not provide further information. I asked if they had an original system image before Verizon gimped the phone and they said "yes but we can not provide that to our customers per carrier agreement."
Lastly I was told that there is going to be a Verizon "Developer Edition" that you can buy directly from Samsung in the coming weeks. This is in "direct response to complaints filed by customers" according to Samsung and will be distributed and supported by Samsung directly. It will cost $600+ and basically be the same phone but w/o an signed/encrypted bootloader.
Off the record information from an unnamed outside source: Verizon is releasing a OTA update to patch the root exploit in the coming days. This OTA will break and prevent re-root as well as try and stop people from using the image off of the "Developer Edition" to mess with the "normal" Verizon Galaxy S3. I don't have specific details; sorry. Do not OTA unless you want to loose root and probably not get it back. Verizon is fk'ing pissed; I mean really pissed that we have root.
From what I am hearing, Verizon's "top %5 data abusers" are all typically rooted/romed. The whole point of locking this phone down was to mess with these unlimited data customers. Verizon started this war; let us end it and make them loath the day they decided to fk with the dev community.
Again, my case Support case has been closed with Samsung. We will get nothing further from them nor any direct help. My case with Verizon corporate is also closed; they said Samsung will offer a Developer model directly and if I wanted that kind of access I needed to talk to them not Verizon.
The lawyers still have not called me back. No shock.
Up until this point I have been angry; now I am pissed. This isn't over; not by a long shot.
Will update when I have more information.
07/17/12
Samsung "Office of the President" -
Phone 877-268-2121
eMail [email protected]
FYI Samsung records phone conversations between the 4th minute and the 18th minute. Anything you say after minute 4 and before minute 18 "MAY" be recorded. I know that sounds like a strange window of recording, but its straight out of the mouth of a sympathetic to the cause tech support rep. Just had a great conversation with a guy, nothing is fixed of course but needless to say, there are people in Samsung that have been hearing rumors that the company is tired of carrier's crap and with in the next few years will be offering all Samsung headsets for a subsidized price, directly through Samsung. There will probably be trade-in specials, loyalty discounts, etc. I can't wait not to buy my devices directly through Verizon! Secondly, as of now (Verizon lies again) anything software related with this phone is coming from, programmed by, and completely influenced by Verizon. Samsung manufacturing does not touch the device or support updates after its in the hands of Verizon. The developer model is not Verizon approved, nor is Verizon happy its going to be sold [from what I am told] however per FCC open network regulations Verizon has to allow the device on the network. Updates for the developer model will be directly from Samsung.
I was able to get the Samsung Apps (store) sideloaded on my device BTW. Verizon requested it be removed which is why its not on the device pre-installed. S-Suggest is NOT the same thing as Samsung Apps. Will Write something up here on XDA later when I get a chance.
07/24/12
The Electronic Frontier Foundation called me back and said they need more info on Block C. I am out of town until next Monday and let them know I would get back to them in a few days. They also are finding a lawyer who will do it pro bono. Looks like this may actually make it to court.
So we have root but we are still locked down unlike all other carriers. Basically this is going to turn into a Droid X situation and for those who know what I am talking about you know how bad this still sucks.
I am tired of this crap guys, and think with the amount of SG3 phones sold in the US and specifically Verizon, this is the time to strike back against all encrypted devices not just the GS3. We have dealt with this garbage long enough and now its time to end nonsense.
Kirtland and Packard, (310) 536-1000, 2361 Rosecrans Ave Ste 450, El Segundo, CA 90245
That's the law firm that won the huge case against Verizon over the Motorola v710 BT lockdown. I have left them a message asking if they will take this case too. In reality this one is going to vastly larger then the Moto case because of the number of users that have this device.
Please call them and let them know on the main VM that you too have been effected by this lockdown, or any lockdown in the US on any carrier. The more people who call the more likely they will take the case. Lots of people calling is how the guys over at Howard Forums were able to get the ball rolling on the v710, so let history repeat itself for the sake of every dev, phone enthusiast, and civil rights advocate.
ROM developers usually work off of donations and by encrypting this and other devices Verizon is stealing from these developers who's livelihood is phone software development. Software developers who want an open platform also have to deal with the hassle that Verizon and other carriers have put them through by locking down devices. If the personal computer was locked down like this when it was first created and sold to people we would never be where we were today technology wise. The crippling of our mobile devices needs to stop, and it needs to stop now.
Its time to take the fight to Verizon and hopefully end the lockdowns once and for all. If the lawfirm takes the case this is going to be winner takes all. This may be our best shot to end device lockdowns in the US once and for all.
I think the push we will make is going to be Block C. Normally Verizon could argue that they locked the device [against the FCC Block C mandate] because of network security. This is going to be hard for them to argue though when every other carrier in the US and internationally has not encrypted the device. It's a long shot, and its going to be up hill, but as far as I see it this is our best chance and the time to strike on this issue is now.
Samsung Level III opens in 30 min. Will update again soon.
Level III is not in on the weekends, so I was just told by the automated message I got when the guy transferred me to that department. ok... Not what they told me yesterday but ok.
So Monday at 8am PST it is, and that's also when Verizon corporate will be calling me back too as the past two calls they have made to me have been the ass crack of dawn. If I time it right I can conference the two in and let them try and point the finger at the other one, to each others faces. No more "That's what the manufacture wanted, go talk to them" vs "That's what the carrier wanted, talk to them" runaround bull****.
Anyway, no updates till Monday then. That gives me time to root.
i'll be the first to say it but thank you
going above and beyond especially considering nobody asked you to do this. great work and i hope it leads to some results
chill145 said:
i'll be the first to say it but thank you
going above and beyond especially considering nobody asked you to do this. great work and i hope it leads to some results
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Yes thank you 100%, we are all in this together.
Also please file FCC Consumer Complaints against Verizon for potentially violating the openness requirements of the Block C spectrum purchasing agreement.
https://esupport.fcc.gov/ccmsforms/form2000.action?form_type=2000F
http://www.xda-developers.com/android/it-is-illegal-for-verizon-to-lock-some-bootloaders/
It's a long shot, but maybe worth it.
Have filed complaint with FCC and BBB, posted poor review on both Blue and White versons on VZW website, wall post ripping them apart on VZW facebook, poor reviews on every device site that will let me do so that I know of, personal contact with VZW reps filing complaints.
Any other avenues we can take?
Here's what I wrote in my FCC complaint:
The new Samsung Galaxy SIII on Verizon Wireless has a locked and encrypted bootloader, which appears to violate the openness requirements that Verizon agreed to when it purchased Block C, pursuant to § 27.16 (b) of 47 CFR Ch. I (10–1–10 Edition) available here-- http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2010-title47-vol2/pdf/CFR-2010-title47-vol2-sec27-16.pdf
§ 27.16 (e) clearly states "Handset locking prohibited" except under certain circumstances previously delineated. The anti-consumer actions taken by Verizon impinge upon the free of use of devices by consumers, and potentially harms the livelihoods of developers, who may not be able to do their work on the device of their choice.
I would appreciate the FCC investigating and clarifying this situation.
Thank you,
Thinking further about it, with how prominent devices are in today's world, would various news providers not want to run this story as well?
I recommend tipping off any local newspaper and news station you have access to. Lets get this story out there~!
Thalinor said:
So we have root but we are still locked down unlike all other carriers. Basically this is going to turn into a Droid X situation and for those who know what I am talking about you know how bad this still sucks.
I am tired of this crap guys, and think with the amount of SG3 phones sold in the US and specifically Verizon, this is the time to strike back against all encrypted devices not just the GS3. We have dealt with this garbage long enough and now its time to end nonsense.
Kirtland and Packard, (310) 536-1000, 2361 Rosecrans Ave Ste 450, El Segundo, CA 90245
That's the law firm that won the huge case against Verizon over the Motorola v710 BT lockdown. I have left them a message asking if they will take this case too. In reality this one is going to vastly larger then the Moto case because of the number of users that have this device.
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Click to collapse
I know that the dev's are working there rear ends off, and I appreciate all their efforts. I am truly pulling for them and hope that they can get the bootloader figured out. I'm not an expert, but in my opinion the ROMs on the DX didn't compare to a fully unlocked device and I'd prefer not to have to suffer through 2+ years of touchwiz.
Thalinor,
I agree that this maybe turning into the Droid X. As a droid x owner, waiting and watching for 18 months to see VZW and Motorola dump on us, I don't think we'll get anywhere with them. There was a huge effort on the DX with petitions, phone calls, emails, twitter, and FB posts.
Just a thought, but what about petitioning the law firm to take up this case. We are not going to get anywhere from VZW's or Samsung's pity for us. If this bootloader is truly encrypted, and if it is anything like the DX, the only way we will get this device completely unlocked is through a legal obligation on VZW's part. I think our energy would be better spent with the Attorneys who stand to profit from this case rather than burning our energy on VZW and Samsung who probably don't give a crap. I would think that the law-firm would have some interest in this (maybe?):
File with the FCC:
http://www.fcc.gov/complaints/
Talk about the Block C complaints. Don't attack them.
Post on VZW's Facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/verizon
Talk about how dissatisfied you are and how you're looking to switch. Don't attack them.
Post on Samsung Mobile's Facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/SamsungMobile
Don't attack them. Talk about how you will reconsider purchasing their devices in the future. They don't want to have to lock bootloaders, Verizon is almost certainly making them do it.
File with the BBB:
http://www.bbb.org/us/verizon-wireless/
Talk about how anti-competitive their practices are and how dissatisfied you are as a customer. Require an answer.
Complain to Verizon Wireless' Site:
https://www.verizonwireless.com/b2c/contact/email.jsp
Don't attack them. Keep in mind you're talking to an employee, they didn't choose to lock down the bootloader. Be respectful but make your concern noted.
The problem lies with Verizon Wireless. They believe that there are not enough people concerned about this to affect their profit margin. You need to show that you will vote with your dollar and move somewhere else if this complaint is not answered. Also, bring up the Block C agreement. There are potential legal repercussions-- meaning that the FCC may be the best place to direct your complaints. Be respectful, I know we're upset, but being pissed off won't get you anywhere.
I just filled out a complaint with the FCC basically asking them to enforce the Block C agreement from Verizon.
I'll phone the lawyers posted on the first page when I get a chance at work tomorrow.
amt897 said:
File with the FCC:
http://www.fcc.gov/complaints/
Talk about the Block C complaints. Don't attack them.
Post on VZW's Facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/verizon
Talk about how dissatisfied you are and how you're looking to switch. Don't attack them.
Post on Samsung Mobile's Facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/SamsungMobile
Don't attack them. Talk about how you will reconsider purchasing their devices in the future. They don't want to have to lock bootloaders, Verizon is almost certainly making them do it.
File with the BBB:
http://www.bbb.org/us/verizon-wireless/
Talk about how anti-competitive their practices are and how dissatisfied you are as a customer. Require an answer.
Complain to Verizon Wireless' Site:
https://www.verizonwireless.com/b2c/contact/email.jsp
Don't attack them. Keep in mind you're talking to an employee, they didn't choose to lock down the bootloader. Be respectful but make your concern noted.
The problem lies with Verizon Wireless. They believe that there are not enough people concerned about this to affect their profit margin. You need to show that you will vote with your dollar and move somewhere else if this complaint is not answered. Also, bring up the Block C agreement. There are potential legal repercussions-- meaning that the FCC may be the best place to direct your complaints. Be respectful, I know we're upset, but being pissed off won't get you anywhere.
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I don't even own an S3, nor am I on Verizon, but damn't...I'm doing every one of things and calling just out of principle. I'm glad I left Verizon a long time ago, but they still tried to get more for money for almost 2 years. Damn near ruined my credit...assholes are going down.
Sent from my SGH-I727 using xda premium
I'd love to see this in major media:
"The Samsung S3 is a excellent smartphone, but Verizon's software modifications have made it unlikely to be upgraded and supported long term. If that's important to you, we recommend you consider another carrier."
My girlfriend used to work for the local news, I'll talk to her about contacting her friends at the station and see if I can get a face to face, or at least an email contact. I'll have to dig up all the info I can on the block C stuff and locked/encrypted bootloaders to take to them first.
Sent from my Droid X until I get my SGS3
block c
The Block C issue relates more toward unlocked devices like the nexus on the play store than unlocked bootloaders. You may be able to press the unlocked bootloader issue under the 'open applications' provision, but obviously that did a ton of good for Google Wallet. Of course, I can't find a single device you can use on Verizon's network that isn't held in verizon's death grip, so even the open device provision seems to be being ignored. The worst part is that verizon filed suits against these provisions and LOST. But true to form, if you have enough money and pull, and are willing to screw your customers as every turn (share everything plans are such a great deal right?) you can break the law over and over in broad daylight, and no one with power will bat an eye. Also, I'm not sure why the 'open application' provision was never really used as a battering ram when in came to things like tethering applications.
I think this type of work is very important. Thanks so much. Very much looking forward to hearing more from the companies themselves about why they make these types of decisions. Can't wait for an update here.
Sent from my Incredible 2 using xda app-developers app
Complained with the FCC, here is my complaint for anyone looking for somewhat of a template.
Recently, after preordering a Samsung Galaxy s3 handset from Verizon, I learned that they have violated the openness requirements of the Block C spectrum purchasing agreement by encrypting my device. This directly impacts my ability to enjoy my phone, and take advantage of the spectrum which Verizon owns. While I understand that the purchasing agreement gives Verizon leeway in regards to "reasonable" protection of the network, no other carrier in the United States (or the world), has done this, leading me to believe that this action is indeed unreasonable. It is unfair and anti-competitive for a company to misuse frequencies they own in this way.
I appreciate your time, and would appreciate a response in this matter.
Thank you,
With Verizon Twitter claiming it was Samsung, I'm curious what both companies said.
skennelly said:
I know that the dev's are working there rear ends off, and I appreciate all their efforts. I am truly pulling for them and hope that they can get the bootloader figured out. I'm not an expert, but in my opinion the ROMs on the DX didn't compare to a fully unlocked device and I'd prefer not to have to suffer through 2+ years of touchwiz.
Thalinor,
Just a thought, but what about petitioning the law firm to take up this case. We are not going to get anywhere from VZW's or Samsung's pity for us. If this bootloader is truly encrypted, and if it is anything like the DX, the only way we will get this device completely unlocked is through a legal obligation on VZW's part. I think our energy would be better spent with the Attorneys who stand to profit from this case rather than burning our energy on VZW and Samsung who probably don't give a crap. I would think that the law-firm would have some interest in this (maybe?):
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That's the whole point! I certainly don't have the money to go up against Verizon and do not want to make a dime out of this; that's not the point at all. I want Verizon to once and for all agree to stop ****ing with our phones. Phones should be sold locked not signed/encrypted.
Locked protects Verizon or the manufacture from having to eat the costs of a new phone when an end user breaks their device doing something irresponsible. I don't want Verizon paying for people's screwed up devices because eventually it will lead to MY bill going up. Its not my fault if someone screw's up their device. On the other hand by encrypting the bootloader Verizon is forcing people to do things that may lead to breaking your phone. If the manufacture offered a phone number for unlocking, where you would agree that unless it was something hardware defective, if you unlock and your device breaks, its not under warranty. Problem solved for everyone; no encrypted bootloader needed.
I am going after Verizon but this is really about every carrier who gimps cell phones. Smartphones have become pocket computers. They are no longer PDA's, or "like" pocket computers, they ARE pocket computers. Hell, my SG3 is got better hardware specs than the **** netbooks people waited in line for last black Friday at Walmart. If we consider netbooks in that they come giving the buyer full administrative access over the device and yet still give the end user the option to hook it up to Wi-Fi. One way or another my devices are hooking up to a company who I pay for data and/or voice service. My rights should be universal and now that the device in my pocket has evolved into a full blown computer, my access rights should evolve as well. Whether its a computer in your pocket or a computer on your desk, it can be used in accordance with your providers service agreement, or it can be abused.
Prejudging your entire customer base to abuse your network and handing down sentence as judge, jury, and executioner like Verizon has done, before people have even had the chance to make the decision to do right or wrong; to me that just violates every ideal set forth in this countries constitution. I am ****ing sick of corporate america ****ting on this countries citizens, and the whole god damn world for that matter. It needs to stop. While I despise lawyers to the core, I sincerely hope they take on this case and prove there are still people in the field who remember why their profession exists (Hint: Its NOT to make money) and that there is some justice left in this country.
/end rant
Update: Talked to Verizon Exec, they have passed info on to the lawyers to look over and may or may not get back to me; at this point its out of her hands.
Update: I have not heard back from the lawyers above, but another user here on XDA PM'd me and said they were able to talk to someone today who told them that the legal team was looking into the case and make a decision after getting more information. They have my number, if they want to call me they can; if not I could care less who spear heads this as long as the battle is fought and won.
Update: I called Samsung, talked to Level I, they tried to transfer me to level III, I was put on told and Level I came back and said they would call me back later. The call never came. I will try them again more vigorously tomorrow.
MichaelVash7886 said:
With Verizon Twitter claiming it was Samsung, I'm curious what both companies said.
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LMFAO @ Verizon's blatant bull**** lies. Why would Samsung decide, at their own free will and expense, to sign-encrypt ONLY Verizon's Galaxy S3, and not one other carrier in the world? Verizon is full of **** and the fact they think the line "Its the other guys fault" is actually going to work, is flat out ****ing insulting.
Screenshot that and post it here please. I do not use social networking; if they really need to spy on me they have my smartphone information, and know where to find me.

AT&T rep: "Your GS4 is slow because you did not activate it properly."

Returned my GS4 today (that's not the purpose of this thread, so don't bash me), and when the guy asked why I was returning it, I said it's kind of laggy and not enough of an upgrade over my GS3 to warrant keeping. A few minutes later he asked if I ever "activated" the phone, and I said, "I just stuck my SIM card in and it worked." He responded, "Well that is why your GS4 was slow--you did not activate it properly."
I proceeded to explain to him that I did not mean that data was slow, but that the phone itself was laggy, i.e., opening dialer, taking pictures, etc--stuff that has nothing to do with the SIM card or activation. He nevertheless argued with me and insisted that if I had properly activated it instead of just inserting my SIM card, then it would have functioned better. We argued for a minute or two and then I just gave up and said "fine, I would like to return it anyways, thanks."
Anyways, just thought I'd share. The guy clearly has no idea what he's talking about, but it was worth a laugh.
It's like when I told the att rep that I might not be purchasing tha s4 because of the locked boot loader. She proceeded to explain that you could take the back of the phone off and that it was not locked.
MrGriffdude said:
It's like when I told the att rep that I might not be purchasing tha s4 because of the locked boot loader. She proceeded to explain that you could take the back of the phone off and that it was not locked.
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Lol do these people get ZERO training?
Sent from my HTC One
MrGriffdude said:
It's like when I told the att rep that I might not be purchasing tha s4 because of the locked boot loader. She proceeded to explain that you could take the back of the phone off and that it was not locked.
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Ha. Funniest post so far today...
Ugh, this makes me so angry. These AT&T reps remind me of Best Buy employees that sell computers or phones. They are so used to being the "person that knows everything" that they can't deal with being proved wrong or won't see it any other way. For example, I wanted a Macbook Pro and I knew the onboard video card could run my favorite games at a full 60 fps.. So I asked for a sales person to get me the laptop in the cage. Instead, I was given a lecture by the sales person on why "Macs can't play games" and I should get this HP "gaming" laptop (17 inches, neon lights, etc). I tried to educate him on things like bootcamp, nVidia series numbers, and even the games themselves, but nothing got through. He was told at some point in his life that "Macs can't play games" and that's that.
It's gotten to the point where if I want to cancel a service or return a product and they ask "what was wrong?" I simply say "it wasn't the right fit for me" or "I just want to try something else". It's not worth getting in an argument about because there are no winners and you aren't going to educate anyone that gets paid to sell, sell, sell. Educate yourself ahead of time of the store's policies and if the rep tries to give you sh*t, just ask for a manager and be sure you are able to quote policy if need be.
I work for AT&T. I'm not a tech support slave, I'd like to keep my title confidential, but I will say that these people don't deserve this kind of trashtalk.
Do remember that over 90% of AT&T's subscriber base is not the type of individual that's going to browse these forums or know what a locked bootloader even is. The % of the Android community that is into modding is way smaller than you think. Why would AT&T train their tech support slaves on locked bootloaders and rooting? 99% of the time, they deal with billing issues and irate customers who are complaining about service drops.
The tech support slaves also don't have training on the internal workings of the tiered system of Android. They didn't make the phone, they can't tell you why it's slow. The only material they have to go off of, is the same material that's available to us from within the box, and the information they catch up on when people call and complain to them. They aren't programmers, they aren't Samsung. They aren't Google. They are a provider of service. I'm sure almost everyone here would agree that it's dumb to call Comcast and ask them why your computer is slow(Not your internet, but your computer). This is the exact same thing. What do you expect them to say when you say "I'm not going to get the S4 because it has a locked bootloader"? Do you expect the response to be "Well sir I can assist you with that. Please dial this 24 digit number and the pound key and your bootloader will be unlocked.", how do you expect them to fix it for you? Locked bootloaders happen for a LEGAL reason, and the bootloader has already been unlocked. Everyone on XDA is so impatient and rude anymore, it makes me not want to be a part of the degrading community.
In my opinion, the person calling AT&T to complain about their phone being slow and laggy shows less common sense than the AT&T rep who can't help them. Just because they're "Tech Support" doesn't mean they can magically give you explenations out of the nether or fix any problem you might have with the hardware that they did not manufacture. Android is an operating system. If you bought your computer from Walmart and it came with Windows installed, would you call Walmart and ask them questions about why your system isn't performing the way it's supposed to, or would you call Microsoft; the people responsible for the software on the device?
Cut these people a break. It's impossible to police the entire bug list of Android across every handset on the market. 90% of the Android user-base wouldn't even notice that the phone was performing slowly when it shouldn't. Us here at XDA are a huge minority.
When I saw this thread, I laughed, not because of what the AT&T rep said, but because the OP was expecting them to give them some detailed analysis on why their phone is lagging. Maybe AT&T should start hiring their tech support slaves directly from Google Interns, then these wambulance threads wouldn't happen.
If you had any idea how much "training" is required to work in any kind of support department for AT&T, you would think twice before crying on forums about how they didn't rifle off a fix for every little problem you have.
As to the comment above me, I will recite the same. Sales people aren't scholars of technology. He's correct that gaming on a Mac is very uncommon, considering almost every computer game in existence runs on DirectX, which is owned by Microsoft, thus not able to be efficiently included in OS X. Do you really damn the salesman for telling you that Windows has 3498230948230948x more gaming capabilities than a Mac? Because I hate to tell you this, but he's right. If I were the salesman, I would try to prevent you from grossly overpaying by 200-300% for a device that you're going to have to jump through hoops for to play an insanely large library of games. What makes it even more hilarious is that now you can install OS X on a Windows based machine, so you're literally overpaying 200-300% for a shiny white Mac because you are a sheeple. Show me any Mac, and I'll build you a Windows computer with Mac OS-X on it for a third of the price. But seriously, If you want to buy a Mac for gaming and you want them to talk to you about strictly Macs, go to an apple store. If you go to a computer store, they're going to try to talk you into Windows, because it's what 85% of the world uses. This is also not a random statistic, although the study is a few years old.
geokhentix said:
I work for AT&T. I'm not a tech support slave, I'd like to keep my title confidential, but I will say that these people don't deserve this kind of trashtalk.
Do remember that over 90% of AT&T's subscriber base is not the type of individual that's going to browse these forums or know what a locked bootloader even is. The % of the Android community that is into modding is way smaller than you think. Why would AT&T train their tech support slaves on locked bootloaders and rooting? 99% of the time, they deal with billing issues and irate customers who are complaining about service drops.
The tech support slaves also don't have training on the internal workings of the tiered system of Android. They didn't make the phone, they can't tell you why it's slow. The only material they have to go off of, is the same material that's available to us from within the box, and the information they catch up on when people call and complain to them. They aren't programmers, they aren't Samsung. They aren't Google. They are a provider of service. I'm sure almost everyone here would agree that it's dumb to call Comcast and ask them why your computer is slow(Not your internet, but your computer). This is the exact same thing. What do you expect them to say when you say "I'm not going to get the S4 because it has a locked bootloader"? Do you expect the response to be "Well sir I can assist you with that. Please dial this 24 digit number and the pound key and your bootloader will be unlocked.", how do you expect them to fix it for you? Locked bootloaders happen for a LEGAL reason, and the bootloader has already been unlocked. Everyone on XDA is so impatient and rude anymore, it makes me not want to be a part of the degrading community.
In my opinion, the person calling AT&T to complain about their phone being slow and laggy shows less common sense than the AT&T rep who can't help them. Just because they're "Tech Support" doesn't mean they can magically give you explenations out of the nether or fix any problem you might have with the hardware that they did not manufacture. Android is an operating system. If you bought your computer from Walmart and it came with Windows installed, would you call Walmart and ask them questions about why your system isn't performing the way it's supposed to, or would you call Microsoft; the people responsible for the software on the device?
Cut these people a break. It's impossible to police the entire bug list of Android across every handset on the market. 90% of the Android user-base wouldn't even notice that the phone was performing slowly when it shouldn't. Us here at XDA are a huge minority.
When I saw this thread, I laughed, not because of what the AT&T rep said, but because the OP was expecting them to give them some detailed analysis on why their phone is lagging. Maybe AT&T should start hiring their tech support slaves directly from Google Interns, then these wambulance threads wouldn't happen.
If you had any idea how much "training" is required to work in any kind of support department for AT&T, you would think twice before crying on forums about how they didn't rifle off a fix for every little problem you have.
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Agree!
It's like people expect that store (best buy, cellular ect) employees all have a BAS or MBA in computer science..
Could have read it wrong,but looks like he was returning his phone and the att rep asked him why. So he told them. what was wrong with that? He didn't take his phone to att thinking some kind of magic was going to take place and it wouldn't lag anymore. That was the att rep saying if he actavatied it he wouldn't have that problem. Again maybe I read the op wrong.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using xda premium
I'm fine with people not knowing if its that important i will usually know about it anyways. I just dislike it when I get a bull crap response in return. If I do receive one I don't make a scene and argue with them. I just thought that response was worth a chuckle or two.
atsim said:
Could have read it wrong,but looks like he was returning his phone and the att rep asked him why. So he told them. what was wrong with that? He didn't take his phone to att thinking some kind of magic was going to take place and it wouldn't lag anymore. That was the att rep saying if he actavatied it he wouldn't have that problem. Again maybe I read the op wrong.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using xda premium
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Considering the title of the thread is meant to find humor in the reps response, it doesn't really matter how it came about. If he wanted to return his phone, do it without picking fun at people who are literally paid to be treated like dirt. I have to talk to support every single day in my job, and trust me, it can be a huge headache, but I don't hold it against them because I know that when I hang up with them, 9 times out of 10, the next person that picks up the phone is going to scream at them.
Perhaps I was a little rude, I meant no offense to any of you.
geokhentix said:
I work for AT&T. I'm not a tech support slave, I'd like to keep my title confidential, but I will say that these people don't deserve this kind of trashtalk.
Do remember that over 90% of AT&T's subscriber base is not the type of individual that's going to browse these forums or know what a locked bootloader even is. The % of the Android community that is into modding is way smaller than you think. Why would AT&T train their tech support slaves on locked bootloaders and rooting? 99% of the time, they deal with billing issues and irate customers who are complaining about service drops.
The tech support slaves also don't have training on the internal workings of the tiered system of Android. They didn't make the phone, they can't tell you why it's slow. The only material they have to go off of, is the same material that's available to us from within the box, and the information they catch up on when people call and complain to them. They aren't programmers, they aren't Samsung. They aren't Google. They are a provider of service. I'm sure almost everyone here would agree that it's dumb to call Comcast and ask them why your computer is slow(Not your internet, but your computer). This is the exact same thing. What do you expect them to say when you say "I'm not going to get the S4 because it has a locked bootloader"? Do you expect the response to be "Well sir I can assist you with that. Please dial this 24 digit number and the pound key and your bootloader will be unlocked.", how do you expect them to fix it for you? Locked bootloaders happen for a LEGAL reason, and the bootloader has already been unlocked. Everyone on XDA is so impatient and rude anymore, it makes me not want to be a part of the degrading community.
In my opinion, the person calling AT&T to complain about their phone being slow and laggy shows less common sense than the AT&T rep who can't help them. Just because they're "Tech Support" doesn't mean they can magically give you explenations out of the nether or fix any problem you might have with the hardware that they did not manufacture. Android is an operating system. If you bought your computer from Walmart and it came with Windows installed, would you call Walmart and ask them questions about why your system isn't performing the way it's supposed to, or would you call Microsoft; the people responsible for the software on the device?
Cut these people a break. It's impossible to police the entire bug list of Android across every handset on the market. 90% of the Android user-base wouldn't even notice that the phone was performing slowly when it shouldn't. Us here at XDA are a huge minority.
When I saw this thread, I laughed, not because of what the AT&T rep said, but because the OP was expecting them to give them some detailed analysis on why their phone is lagging. Maybe AT&T should start hiring their tech support slaves directly from Google Interns, then these wambulance threads wouldn't happen.
If you had any idea how much "training" is required to work in any kind of support department for AT&T, you would think twice before crying on forums about how they didn't rifle off a fix for every little problem you have.
As to the comment above me, I will recite the same. Sales people aren't scholars of technology. He's correct that gaming on a Mac is very uncommon, considering almost every computer game in existence runs on DirectX, which is owned by Microsoft, thus not able to be efficiently included in OS X. Do you really damn the salesman for telling you that Windows has 3498230948230948x more gaming capabilities than a Mac? Because I hate to tell you this, but he's right. If I were the salesman, I would try to prevent you from grossly overpaying by 200-300% for a device that you're going to have to jump through hoops for to play an insanely large library of games. What makes it even more hilarious is that now you can install OS X on a Windows based machine, so you're literally overpaying 200-300% for a shiny white Mac because you are a sheeple. Show me any Mac, and I'll build you a Windows computer with Mac OS-X on it for a third of the price. But seriously, If you want to buy a Mac for gaming and you want them to talk to you about strictly Macs, go to an apple store. If you go to a computer store, they're going to try to talk you into Windows, because it's what 85% of the world uses. This is also not a random statistic, although the study is a few years old.
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I tend to disagree. While sure, the reps may not be "informed" they still shouldn't try to talk out of their asses about something they don't understand. If anything this would shy me away from a product than entice me to get it. Imagine if you go to a restaurant and you ask the waiter/waitress about ingredients in a dish, they don't make stuff up if they don't know, they go ask.
As for this being a "degrading community" please get off this forum, as it's clearly not for you.
raqball said:
Agree!
It's like people expect that store (best buy, cellular ect) employees all have a BAS or MBA in computer science..
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My only gripe is when the person you are talking to (best buy, AT&T, etc) claims that they KNOW they are right because they've had some Saturday afternoon training.
See my example above. All I did was ask for a Macbook Pro from the Best Buy rep and I was questioned on my purchase. A more recent example was the AT&T rep asking me why I cared about the release date of the Galaxy S4 because "it's not like this is an iPhone". It shouldn't matter if it's the S4, iPhone or even a dumb phone. Just answer my question and I'll be on my way.
Even when I went to the store to pick up the S4, the AT&T rep started the phone, and logged in as his own Gmail account and installed a "task killer". He had the phone behind the desk where I couldn't see and by the time I had gotten it in my hands, he had logged out of his account. I asked simply "why did you install this?" and he said "well that's so your phone doesn't run slow. Just run that every couple days and your good". I just factory reset as soon as I got in the car and went on my way.
mcmb03 said:
I tend to disagree. While sure, the reps may not be "informed" they still shouldn't try to talk out of their asses about something they don't understand. If anything this would shy me away from a product than entice me to get it. Imagine if you go to a restaurant and you ask the waiter/waitress about ingredients in a dish, they don't make stuff up if they don't know, they go ask.
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They are paid to handle your questions. That is their job. They are not allowed to say "I don't know.", or they will lose their job. If I were at a restaurant and asked a waiter about the ingredients in a dish, I would know that the restaurant obviously made this dish themselves. AT&T did not manufacture the S4. It is not their hardware. It is not their software..well, a small portion of it is. But either way, they shouldn't be held responsible for the physical malfunctions of a device that they didn't themselves produce.
"Degrading community"; go look at the bootloader unlock thread and see how many people are crying and being impatient and just downright rude because djrbliss decided not to release HIS WORK until he sees necessary, and then tell me this community isn't degrading, and if things keep going in this direction, I will find my way off this forum...Because you are right, it's not for me, because I am not an impatient troll that bites the hand that feeds me just because I don't want to wait a few weeks. I do know that this is irrelevant to this thread, but I thought I'd post it anyway. It bothers me so much. I want to punch everyone being jerks in that thread......right in the face.
No I didn't think it was rude. This is xda though people get crazy over the smallest thing. How many lag threads do we have now? Ahaha things get outta hand fast.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using xda premium
geokhentix said:
They are paid to handle your questions. That is their job. They are not allowed to say "I don't know.", or they will lose their job. If I were at a restaurant and asked a waiter about the ingredients in a dish, I would know that the restaurant obviously made this dish themselves. AT&T did not manufacture the S4. It is not their hardware. It is not their software..well, a small portion of it is. But either way, they shouldn't be held responsible for the physical malfunctions of a device that they didn't themselves produce.
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I didn't say they should say they don't know, they should go find a more well-informed rep at the store and find out, unless you condone of AT&T reps to lie to their customers.
Also I don't mean to sound harsh, it's just something that really pisses me off, and I'm not trying to flame you or anything
mcmb03 said:
I didn't say they should say they don't know, they should go find a more well-informed rep at the store and find out, unless you condone of AT&T reps to lie to their customers.
Also I don't mean to sound harsh, it's just something that really pisses me off, and I'm not trying to flame you or anything
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Hey, no worries, all in good fun right? I don't condone lying, but they aren't allowed to tell you they don't know, they'll lose their jobs if that happens too often...they're basically forced to lie if they can't give you a definite answer. Damn, if I get one bad survey, my director breathes down my neck like a dragon and threatens to send me to gitmo.
geokhentix said:
Considering the title of the thread is meant to find humor in the reps response, it doesn't really matter how it came about. If he wanted to return his phone, do it without picking fun at people who are literally paid to be treated like dirt. I have to talk to support every single day in my job, and trust me, it can be a huge headache, but I don't hold it against them because I know that when I hang up with them, 9 times out of 10, the next person that picks up the phone is going to scream at them.
Perhaps I was a little rude, I meant no offense to any of you.
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As a retail sales leader for one of the major 4 in the US I find the OP to have every right to post what he did and use the Thread title he did. The sales rep that helped him in an effing dolt. Along the same lines as the reps that tell customers that they need to condition a Lithium Ion/Lithium Polymer battery. You need to calm down bro.
mcmb03 said:
I didn't say they should say they don't know, they should go find a more well-informed rep at the store and find out, unless you condone of AT&T reps to lie to their customers.
Also I don't mean to sound harsh, it's just something that really pisses me off, and I'm not trying to flame you or anything
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Exactly making something up is worse then not knowing just tell me you don't know and be done with it. don't make something up and misinform people
MrGriffdude said:
Exactly making something up is worse then not knowing just tell me you don't know and be done with it. don't make something up and misinform people
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When my job is on the line and I have a family to feed and I have no information in front of me about the problem you're having, I'll tell you that your phone is slow because there's a small civilization of gnomes inside your device that are getting a little too sexual and overbreeding
geokhentix said:
When my job is on the line and I have a family to feed and I have no information in front of me about the problem you're having, I'll tell you that your phone is slow because there's a small civilization of gnomes inside your device that are getting a little too sexual and overbreeding
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Now that people would definitely believe!

[Q] (not) Unique Situation - Have 2 Galaxy S3 Verizon and Need Guidance

Hi:
I started writing a thread the other day but stopped as it was full of drama and detail not important. This is what happened (when there is drama I will insert [D] with no detail so the context is maintained a bit.
I was minding my own business when one day last week my Samsung Galaxy G3 (I535) suddenly lost the ability to make/receive calls. I was on 4.1.2 and rooted, bootloader unlocked via ODIN. I thought I had loaded software that caused the problem. Couldn't resolve. Called Verizon [D] [D] to level 2, no problem, let me check a few things, OK, cool, do you have 2nd SIM? Yes! OK, it must be the phone, let's get you a replacement.. (Saturday, Phone arrives Tues).
New phone, powers up, no updates, authentication nightmare. Will not auth. Call Verizon...just wait a while?...OK.
Some hours later, authenticated. Very odd problems: charge isn't indicated on several chargers, then it is, then it isn't, charger independent? Keyboard exhibits over 1000 ms delay on press; unusable. Several other odd problems. Confused, I look online: Verizon Galaxy G3 4.4.2 update slow. First two hits happen to be Verizon's own "self-support" boards. All my symptoms and more. Lot's of Verizon's taking customers through the swamp looking for snipe. Reboot, Sim pull/insert, Factory Reset. Called Verizon back, hold times 4x previous call. Getting to Level 2 very difficult, CS rep actually states: "I know most of our phones and I haven't heard this set of problems". I refered him to Verizon's web site, grudingly sends me to Level 2. Extremely long hold time, and upon answer that group is not busy at all but relaxing talking together. Guy is grumpy, "Let me check something", back without hold in about 10 mins. "What ROM did you flash on the phone!?" first thing he said to me.
I've never flashed a ROM on any phone, for the record. I told him I knew what was and didn't do that. He insisted that he "couldn't read the software on the phone" [D] [D]!
I maintained polite, and focused on a solution, but he would not hear of that. I also offered to do a Factory Reset at least twice. "The Custom ROM will still be there after Factory Reset!" Perhaps, but then that would prove what I did and didn't do, maybe? Finally, I told him that I was very tired, and we weren't solving anything. Could I have an problem ticket number or incident number for reference. "We don't use those anymore". "You can have my employee ID and my phone number." Sorry if this is not PC, but it felt like a rapist giving his victim his contact information, should victim want to be in touch. I said, no, I'll just call back.
Immediately upon termination the new phone (replacement) displayed "Safe Mode" no apps, and the inabilty to unselect "screen mirroring" a new feature to me, but now turned on. I pull the SIM and factory reset, even though I had loaded many apps back (Inclulding Towelroot, which I had found and implemented). Although no idication of root before, the phone showed rooted and customer or modified, I don't remember the fields. Next day called back, long holds, CS OK, everyone had read Level 2 notes. Sent me up to Level 2. Long hold time, over 30 minutes. Cold response. I asked why the replacement of a non-functioning device had branched into, after receiving said device, two separate issues, to me it was one, getting my service back. Cold, "what do you want us to do?" Not knowing, I said, "I don't know, I just want the phone to work". Finally he went to talk to the boss, came back at 0 deg. Kelvin, through clenched teeth: You can take your phone to Best Buy, they will flash it back (I presumed to 4.1.2), after factory reboot and confirm no....[D] Thanks, I terminated.
At this point I had no working phone for several days, and I felt very upset about the entire situation, especially how I'd been treated by the last two guys. The first after the replacement was so out of line he should have been sanctioned, and an appology directed at me by manager, unless....
This is what they intended to happen. Because the OTA updates hadn't taken, perhaps, they disabled the G3 connection on the device (and it was unprovisioned on their server), knew this would lead to the likely steps above, and were so intent on getting me under their control with 4.4.2 (which I knew nothing about, in terms of root, etc), they had manipulated me to 4.4.2? I am a long time customer with unlimited data, a withdrawn discount, and paying over $200 for two lines with shared limited minutes and txt. No contract.
Whatever the case I still have my 4.1.2 G3 (no voice) and the 4.4.2 replacement. Obviously, I cannot consider staying at Verizon (likely what they want, apparently). Which do I keep? How do I prep the other for return to them? Know any good class action attorney? Obviously, Verizon is too big to care about me and, like so many huge corporations, no one dares attempt to regulate them.
Thanks for any advice. For infomormation on any technical steps to support the above paragraph, please simply refer me to the thread or post and I'll take it from there. I am not super technical, and had to re-do the original ODIN process about 3 times before it took, so any existing process instructions targeted at the Stupid User level would be appropriate and very much appreciated.
Sorry this is so long, I honestly left out a few calls because it just dawned on me, after I called V back today to figure out next steps, the guy listened (read the notes), said I was very poorly handled, I deserved better, would go talk to manager, be right back, 20 minutes later, manager still busy, can he call me back? Sure, gave info. Not a single call or attempt. That was the "It's not us, it's you response" but made to sound the other way round. Apparently they want me to walk away with a useless device, and since it's old and I'm not under contract, but love the phone, I can't understand why they would destroy my property and tell me to f-off, other than they feel like it.
If this sounds like paranoia, you might be surprised what big companies will do to you if they can. And so far, I'm the only one harmed, since they probably expected me to stop days ago. In any event, I have to send back a phone to them and hopefully keep one that works somewhere else. Please help me with the steps I need to take.
If you like history, or want to see how the big guys got a stranglehold on the US after the Civil War, then were forced back into decency by Teddy Roosevelt, W. Wilson, and FDR check out the Roosevelt 7 part documentrary recently appearing on PBS. I'm up to Episode 4, and already knew much of the story, but the detailed focus on their private and public lives and how they matured and developed is moving, enlightening, and awe-inspiring.
Thank You in Advance,
Mark
I really should say I'm surprised but in reality I'm not. Your right when you say they don't care because I've experienced it for myself and with my gf over the phone and my mom for that matter. The sad part is they are getting way too big for even themselves and like most companies don't have very good customer service. I'm unlocked as well and have never had issues with voice calls on this phone, only my first phone with a weird rom. It's not there business to ask you if you've installed a custom rom or not. I wouldn't even of answered the question myself.
Personally i would dump verizon if they treated me like that. I was in the store yesterday with my gf and she is a looooong time VZW customer. I'm taking 14 plus years and she went to best buy to get a phone because VZW doesn't know how to take care of customers at all.
It's a sad trend but the bigger the company the worse the customer service is
From my Wicked S3 on SOKP
mrbonine said:
Hi:
I started writing a thread the other day but stopped as it was full of drama and detail not important. This is what happened (when there is drama I will insert [D] with no detail so the context is maintained a bit.
I was minding my own business when one day last week my Samsung Galaxy G3 (I535) suddenly lost the ability to make/receive calls. I was on 4.1.2 and rooted, bootloader unlocked via ODIN. I thought I had loaded software that caused the problem. Couldn't resolve. Called Verizon [D] [D] to level 2, no problem, let me check a few things, OK, cool, do you have 2nd SIM? Yes! OK, it must be the phone, let's get you a replacement.. (Saturday, Phone arrives Tues).
New phone, powers up, no updates, authentication nightmare. Will not auth. Call Verizon...just wait a while?...OK.
Some hours later, authenticated. Very odd problems: charge isn't indicated on several chargers, then it is, then it isn't, charger independent? Keyboard exhibits over 1000 ms delay on press; unusable. Several other odd problems. Confused, I look online: Verizon Galaxy G3 4.4.2 update slow. First two hits happen to be Verizon's own "self-support" boards. All my symptoms and more. Lot's of Verizon's taking customers through the swamp looking for snipe. Reboot, Sim pull/insert, Factory Reset. Called Verizon back, hold times 4x previous call. Getting to Level 2 very difficult, CS rep actually states: "I know most of our phones and I haven't heard this set of problems". I refered him to Verizon's web site, grudingly sends me to Level 2. Extremely long hold time, and upon answer that group is not busy at all but relaxing talking together. Guy is grumpy, "Let me check something", back without hold in about 10 mins. "What ROM did you flash on the phone!?" first thing he said to me.
I've never flashed a ROM on any phone, for the record. I told him I knew what was and didn't do that. He insisted that he "couldn't read the software on the phone" [D] [D]!
I maintained polite, and focused on a solution, but he would not hear of that. I also offered to do a Factory Reset at least twice. "The Custom ROM will still be there after Factory Reset!" Perhaps, but then that would prove what I did and didn't do, maybe? Finally, I told him that I was very tired, and we weren't solving anything. Could I have an problem ticket number or incident number for reference. "We don't use those anymore". "You can have my employee ID and my phone number." Sorry if this is not PC, but it felt like a rapist giving his victim his contact information, should victim want to be in touch. I said, no, I'll just call back.
Immediately upon termination the new phone (replacement) displayed "Safe Mode" no apps, and the inabilty to unselect "screen mirroring" a new feature to me, but now turned on. I pull the SIM and factory reset, even though I had loaded many apps back (Inclulding Towelroot, which I had found and implemented). Although no idication of root before, the phone showed rooted and customer or modified, I don't remember the fields. Next day called back, long holds, CS OK, everyone had read Level 2 notes. Sent me up to Level 2. Long hold time, over 30 minutes. Cold response. I asked why the replacement of a non-functioning device had branched into, after receiving said device, two separate issues, to me it was one, getting my service back. Cold, "what do you want us to do?" Not knowing, I said, "I don't know, I just want the phone to work". Finally he went to talk to the boss, came back at 0 deg. Kelvin, through clenched teeth: You can take your phone to Best Buy, they will flash it back (I presumed to 4.1.2), after factory reboot and confirm no....[D] Thanks, I terminated.
At this point I had no working phone for several days, and I felt very upset about the entire situation, especially how I'd been treated by the last two guys. The first after the replacement was so out of line he should have been sanctioned, and an appology directed at me by manager, unless....
This is what they intended to happen. Because the OTA updates hadn't taken, perhaps, they disabled the G3 connection on the device (and it was unprovisioned on their server), knew this would lead to the likely steps above, and were so intent on getting me under their control with 4.4.2 (which I knew nothing about, in terms of root, etc), they had manipulated me to 4.4.2? I am a long time customer with unlimited data, a withdrawn discount, and paying over $200 for two lines with shared limited minutes and txt. No contract.
Whatever the case I still have my 4.1.2 G3 (no voice) and the 4.4.2 replacement. Obviously, I cannot consider staying at Verizon (likely what they want, apparently). Which do I keep? How do I prep the other for return to them? Know any good class action attorney? Obviously, Verizon is too big to care about me and, like so many huge corporations, no one dares attempt to regulate them.
Thanks for any advice. For infomormation on any technical steps to support the above paragraph, please simply refer me to the thread or post and I'll take it from there. I am not super technical, and had to re-do the original ODIN process about 3 times before it took, so any existing process instructions targeted at the Stupid User level would be appropriate and very much appreciated.
Sorry this is so long, I honestly left out a few calls because it just dawned on me, after I called V back today to figure out next steps, the guy listened (read the notes), said I was very poorly handled, I deserved better, would go talk to manager, be right back, 20 minutes later, manager still busy, can he call me back? Sure, gave info. Not a single call or attempt. That was the "It's not us, it's you response" but made to sound the other way round. Apparently they want me to walk away with a useless device, and since it's old and I'm not under contract, but love the phone, I can't understand why they would destroy my property and tell me to f-off, other than they feel like it.
If this sounds like paranoia, you might be surprised what big companies will do to you if they can. And so far, I'm the only one harmed, since they probably expected me to stop days ago. In any event, I have to send back a phone to them and hopefully keep one that works somewhere else. Please help me with the steps I need to take.
If you like history, or want to see how the big guys got a stranglehold on the US after the Civil War, then were forced back into decency by Teddy Roosevelt, W. Wilson, and FDR check out the Roosevelt 7 part documentrary recently appearing on PBS. I'm up to Episode 4, and already knew much of the story, but the detailed focus on their private and public lives and how they matured and developed is moving, enlightening, and awe-inspiring.
Thank You in Advance,
Mark
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't really have any info to help you, so I apologize for that.
But out of curiosity, do you have the MyVerizon app (or whatever the name is) installed?
At one point the app requested root permission, which is EXTREMELY sketchy in my opinion. I wonder if you grant it, or even deny it (if they can detect the denial) if they ASSUMED that you installed a custom ROM, because a lot of those that root also install custom ROMs.
Maybe just try at a different time of day to maybe get a call center in a different state or country?
That is extremely unprofessional on their part though...
Sent from my SCH-I535 using XDA Free mobile app
XdrummerXboy said:
I don't really have any info to help you, so I apologize for that.
But out of curiosity, do you have the MyVerizon app (or whatever the name is) installed?
At one point the app requested root permission, which is EXTREMELY sketchy in my opinion. I wonder if you grant it, or even deny it (if they can detect the denial) if they ASSUMED that you installed a custom ROM, because a lot of those that root also install custom ROMs.
Maybe just try at a different time of day to maybe get a call center in a different state or country?
That is extremely unprofessional on their part though...
Sent from my SCH-I535 using XDA Free mobile app
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Speaking of verizon and apps. My gf when she was on the phone was told by a rep that she had updated an app the previous day through Google play. Talk about sketchy! Yea I remember when the verizon app requested root permissions on my phone, that was it for verizon apps for me
From my Wicked S3 on SOKP
ShapesBlue said:
Speaking of verizon and apps. My gf when she was on the phone was told by a rep that she had updated an app the previous day through Google play. Talk about sketchy! Yea I remember when the verizon app requested root permissions on my phone, that was it for verizon apps for me
From my Wicked S3 on SOKP
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Wow, that takes things to a whole new level....
Sent from my SCH-I535 using XDA Free mobile app
XdrummerXboy said:
Wow, that takes things to a whole new level....
Sent from my SCH-I535 using XDA Free mobile app
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Your telling me. She's not rooted or unlocked though but that's still messed up. She got her shiny new S5 yesterday, looks nice
From my Wicked S3 on SOKP
ShapesBlue said:
Your telling me. She's not rooted or unlocked though but that's still messed up. She got her shiny new S5 yesterday, looks nice
From my Wicked S3 on SOKP
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hmm.. I wonder how they knew that then
Nice! I wanted the S5 or Note4, but I'll be hanging onto the S3 for another year. I can't justify buying one when I have a baby on the way
Sent from my SCH-I535 using XDA Free mobile app
XdrummerXboy said:
Hmm.. I wonder how they knew that then
Nice! I wanted the S5 or Note4, but I'll be hanging onto the S3 for another year. I can't justify buying one when I have a baby on the way
Sent from my SCH-I535 using XDA Free mobile app
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I hear that. I have mine until June next year. Not quite sure what I'm doing just yet. The Super power saving mode is quite a nice feature. It basically disables all apps but the essential ones. The battery life then goes way over a day plus on the S5
From my Wicked S3 on SOKP
Et tu Verizon
Thanks for the info. I did have the MyVerizon app installed, I believe. I don't remember it requesting root, but I sometimes click through those things without paying too much attention (since I'm fairly careful about what goes on the phone); the reason I install software requiring root is to access it (circular, I know) so, they are doing what they must to run. I appreciate the suggestions about other call centers, etc. I do have the contact information from the single most helpful and polite (funny how that goes together) person I talked to through this debacle. I'll drop him a quick note, but really, since they never even bothered to call back, it's clear to me that they want me to leave. Paying over $200 per month to be treated like crap is not something I could ever do. They are big, very profitable, and don't care about anything but extracting cash from people under contract, or too complacent to leave (I'm in the 2nd category until now). Being in a codependent relationship with Verizon is not only self-defeating, but irrational. Until we have some politicians owned by the people instead of corporations we have no chance of reigning these folks in. Sure, they employ lot's of people, but an army of good people working against the best interest of everyone is not good, it's an uncontrollable menace: just look at the banks that gambled with people's homes, lost their bets, then collateralized them when the bottom fell out of their own septic tank of greed. The entire world economy hit an air pocket, but we're still letting the same greed intoxicated pilots fly. My only regret is believing their lies as long as I did. I deserve better, and it's won't be particularly hard to find it. Since the 4.4.3 G3 (nor the 4.1.2 for that matter) are particularly compatible with the GSM carriers, and Samsung is the lookout for the felonious Verizon, I'll probably get a Nexus 5. I think the G5 is better for several reasons, but that's too bad. All of the tech and marketing in the world will not make me "grateful" to manufacturers or carriers that somehow feel controlling how you use the equipment you buy from them is somehow acceptable. The money Verizon cares about is the corporate contracts, since they can manage that process much better, the revenue is less volatile, and they don't have to take calls from subscribers, wasting the money that could be spent on acquisitions, and expanding their market oligarchy. Public utilities create natural monopolies. There are not 2 sets of power lines, or water lines, or sewers running into your home. And the idea that competition from fiber will for improvements from Comcast is false, prices may move, but service will not get better. Only when barriers of entry are low can new competitors help drive down the price of entrenched utilities. We could all create our own mobile system on meshes of unlicensed 5.0 Gig or other spectrum, but it would be very costly to do that and linking this metropolitan radio webs would be tricky. But probably, someone is already working on that. Ask a HAM radio enthusiast about how they handle phone calls over shortwave. They have licenses, yes, but the technology to connect 2-way voice wireless signals to PSTN phone calls has been around for many years. Big corporations exact huge profits and drag down anyone that needs the services, the trick is to find creative ways around them, most importantly by thinking outside of the feature/function cage they've placed around us. Soon, you'll be able to buy just the cable channels you want, perhaps. I have hundreds and I generally watch less than 10.
The accusation flung at me by the enraged employee is little more that hot air. It reflects a corporate culture of mendacity and blame. My fault was to allow him to take control of the conversation, for a millisecond. Whatever I've done to the software on the phone (which, as you noted, was not a ROM change) it's still my phone and not theirs. They don't even provide the "insurance" to replace the failed device, a third party does. I didn't stop my phone from working to get a new phone. Had the replacement worked as well or better as the one it replaced I would have been happy. Now, I'm going over a week with no phone and they will never get paid for that week. The longer it takes to resolve, the less on my final bill, which will be coming up soon. When folks have experiences like this it's best to communicate the problem to the FCC (as if they cared) and their state PUC. Not that they will do anything about it, but it's important to remember they have a duty to regulate whether this group of appointees cares or not. The only thing that affects Verizon is withdrawing my monthly gratuity and when that happens because of abuse, manipulation, and possible fraud, the regulators need to be informed, if only so they can't say they didn't know.
Thanks for the reminder that they have no business asking questions about rooted phones or ROMS. That lingering guilt that one may have done something Daddy Verizon doesn't approve of is there, for sure, but since what I was accused of I didn't do, it was easier to just say, no, I didn't do that.....when I offered to factory reset TWICE during the call and he pretended not to hear me I realized it was all just a manipulative game played by a bully. No, no lunch money for you today, dude. I think they actually hire volatile people and use them as scarecrows. If Verizon didn't want their customers to be exposed to abuse, they'd fire these guys. The second guy was so cold, trying to do the right thing, but hating it. If you've ever been to a time-share presentation and not purchased one, you are familiar with this game. It's not only wrong, but it reflects how truly manipulative and immoral the employers are, they are paying the guy to be insulting, intimidating, and thuggish. So many large companies act this way, it's amazing we let them get away with it. The only way to stop it is to stop paying them and tell them why. I worked in a small hardware store in a small town 30+ years ago. Even when customers were trying some trick, like returning something they didn't buy from us, or a more elaborate ruse (I'll bring the old stuff back tomorrow......), I just explained how it worked and enforced the process; I never shouted, "You are so busted...." These were customers, some making honest errors, some trying to take advantage, but there were none I didn't want to come back again, because it would be bad for business and likely make an enemy. After I leave Verizon I will never give them another dime ever, and I think they honestly don't believe that.
XdrummerXboy said:
I don't really have any info to help you, so I apologize for that.
But out of curiosity, do you have the MyVerizon app (or whatever the name is) installed?
At one point the app requested root permission, which is EXTREMELY sketchy in my opinion. I wonder if you grant it, or even deny it (if they can detect the denial) if they ASSUMED that you installed a custom ROM, because a lot of those that root also install custom ROMs.
Maybe just try at a different time of day to maybe get a call center in a different state or country?
That is extremely unprofessional on their part though...
Sent from my SCH-I535 using XDA Free mobile app
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

Verizon Refuses Telephone Support Based on Installed Apps

I don't know if this is general knowledge here, but I figured I'd relate my experience here in case it's informative for others. I've been having a ton of trouble with dropped calls on Verizon at my home. It's always been a marginal signal, but the last couple of months it's been impossible to use my phone at all. So I finally called Verizon and quickly was transferred to Level 2 support. The Level 2 support immediately jumped down my throat about having a rooted phone. When I asked them how they determine that I have a rooted phone the agent proceeded to list every app installed on my phone and explained that some of them only work on rooted phones. He was adamant that the reason for dropped calls was having a rooted phone and refused to provide any support.
It was news to me that our Verizon phones phone home and keep them informed as to what apps are installed on our phones, and that now Verizon is refusing to provide support to people that even have apps that require root privileges.
Depends on the state that you live in. The warranty is to protect against hardware defects and in some states Verizon will have to show that rooting or one of your installed apps is the cause of your issues.
You can always flash back to full stock and see if you still have drops. If so, call them up again...
I *am* full stock. I have literally changed nothing except to root the phone. Everything is pure stock ... even the Verizon apps and recovery are all still there.
GNRDuncan said:
I *am* full stock. I have literally changed nothing except to root the phone. Everything is pure stock ... even the Verizon apps and recovery are all still there.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It is not uncommon for carriers to refuse to support anything other then fully stock devices. You have to remember that root is a security risk as well and most will not support this.
Thanks. I get that. What surprised me wasn't that they wouldn't support a rooted phone, but that Verizon had a list of apps I'd installed (even apps installed directly by ADB). I wasn't aware that they had spyware on my phone that was monitoring what I do on the phone.
GNRDuncan said:
Thanks. I get that. What surprised me wasn't that they wouldn't support a rooted phone, but that Verizon had a list of apps I'd installed (even apps installed directly by ADB). I wasn't aware that they had spyware on my phone that was monitoring what I do on the phone.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That is part of the info that is sent to all carriers when they collect info for troubleshooting and stats. Some of that info is they grab a list of apps in the system and data/app partitions.
I wasn't aware they could read anything on my phone without my permission. I wonder what other information they can grab at will without me knowing?
It's legal in the US for providers to look at what their customers are using and installing on their phone?
Bloody hell... Over here a provider isn't even allowed to see which apps use up your data, all they can report is how much you used in total. The very idea that they'd be allowed to look inside your phone is... inconceivable in Europe.
GNRDuncan said:
I wasn't aware they could read anything on my phone without my permission. I wonder what other information they can grab at will without me knowing?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thats the thing is you give them permission. No one ever reads it but it is in the TOS. You even agree to it when you first sign in to an android device about it collecting data from your device. As for other info they can get. Pretty much any and every website you go to, and things like that. Your contacts and stuff are pretty safe. If you consider storing them on google safe.
ShadowLea said:
It's legal in the US for providers to look at what their customers are using and installing on their phone?
Bloody hell... Over here a provider isn't even allowed to see which apps use up your data, all they can report is how much you used in total. The very idea that they'd be allowed to look inside your phone is... inconceivable in Europe.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You might not have noticed but you agree to it on every android device. ITs all part of troubleshooting system issues. Heck Google can even remotely remove apps from your device. Carriers in the US have far more control over the device because you dont tech own the device until you pay off your contract or unless you buy the device at full retail price.
An agreement that says "we may collect data about your phone" is not the same thing as "You give us permission to enter your phone at any time for any reason and collect whatever we want from your phone."
What app allows this one the phone? I will happily remove it.
GNRDuncan said:
An agreement that says "we may collect data about your phone" is not the same thing as "You give us permission to enter your phone at any time for any reason and collect whatever we want from your phone."
What app allows this one the phone? I will happily remove it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thats the thing. It does. Collecting data about the device, pretty much says that you give them the right to collect data about the device. This does include apps installed. IT is not as simple as an app. IT is built into the OS.
zelendel said:
You might not have noticed but you agree to it on every android device. ITs all part of troubleshooting system issues. Heck Google can even remotely remove apps from your device. Carriers in the US have far more control over the device because you dont tech own the device until you pay off your contract or unless you buy the device at full retail price.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Google is not the same thing as a Telecom provider.
Google makes your OS, a Telco just provides you with access to the network. There's a very large difference.
It's like the Ministry of Infrastructure being able to see your car's logs. The manufacturer can read out the car's system for troubleshooting, as they should, but the government branch that pours asphalt on roads has no business seeing what kind on music I listen to in my car!
Who am I kidding, the US Ministry of Infrastructure probably has recordings from how awful people sing in their cars synced to the exact GPS coordinate for every word.
Maybe I should explain that European devices are not truly Branded? The only branding they have are logos, tunes and a few apps that you can freely remove or add through the online appstores as well.
A lot of users have a SIMonly contract (just a SIM) and buy their devices, without any connection to their provider, in an independent store.
The whole system US providers have with their own privately locked devices that don't even allow eachother's 4G network, that's illegal here.
zelendel said:
Thats the thing. It does. Collecting data about the device, pretty much says that you give them the right to collect data about the device. This does include apps installed. IT is not as simple as an app. IT is built into the OS.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Your laws are very, very terrifying. No wonder the USA is such a bloody mess....
I thought the spying on citizens for money, corruption and dirty business practises wasn't that bad, but it seems I've had a very naive view of the USA. I'm utterly grateful I never followed my childhood dream of emigrating to the USA. They're one step away from a totalitarian corporate government... I'm starting to see why so many people keep referencing Skynet... The plot in Continuum (the TV show) is far more present-day and far less futuristic, it seems...
Over here "we may collect data about your phone" does not mean "We have the complete legal right to read everything you do, watch, install and write on your phone".
They must specify exactly what data, how they collect it and what they use it for, and any deviation from those specifications results in a hefty fine or even a suspension of business rights.
They're only allowed to look at your phone, not in it. They can't even connect your dialed numbers to your in-phone contacts on the bill. Even in their own app, you have to give explicit permission for that link.
zelendel said:
Thats the thing. It does. Collecting data about the device, pretty much says that you give them the right to collect data about the device. This does include apps installed. IT is not as simple as an app. IT is built into the OS.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Your interpretation of the term differs radically from my own.
Luckily we have AOSP, so if we know where the code that allows this is located we can remove it. Any ideas where to start looking? I'm new to all of this, but it would be worth getting into it if we really have to waste our time protecting ourselves from the businesses we have to patronize in order to function in a modern society.
ShadowLea said:
Google is not the same thing as a Telecom provider.
Google makes your OS, a Telco just provides you with access to the network. There's a very large difference.
It's like the Ministry of Infrastructure being able to see your car's logs. The manufacturer can read out the car's system for troubleshooting, as they should, but the government branch that pours asphalt on roads has no business seeing what kind on music I listen to in my car!
Who am I kidding, the US Ministry of Infrastructure probably has recordings from how awful people sing in their cars synced to the exact GPS coordinate for every word.
Maybe I should explain that European devices are not truly Branded? The only branding they have are logos, tunes and a few apps that you can freely remove or add through the online appstores as well.
A lot of users have a SIMonly contract (just a SIM) and buy their devices, without any connection to their provider, in an independent store.
The whole system US providers have with their own privately locked devices that don't even allow eachother's 4G network, that's illegal here.
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Oh I know. I generally dont buy US based devices even though I live here. Also our carriers here put their own version of the OS on the device. Loaded down with bloat ware and added code.
GNRDuncan said:
Your interpretation of the term differs radically from my own.
Luckily we have AOSP, so if we know where the code that allows this is located we can remove it. Any ideas where to start looking? I'm new to all of this, but it would be worth getting into it if we really have to waste our time protecting ourselves from the businesses we have to patronize in order to function in a modern society.
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Not that simple. AOSP is alot different then what comes on carrier devices. Carrier roms are closed sourced just like OEM roms like touchwiz, HTC sense and all the others.
Why do you think Verizon goes through such great pains to lock the bootloader. There is no way that I am aware of as they would just get the info from google as they collect the same info.
zelendel said:
Not that simple. AOSP is alot different then what comes on carrier devices. Carrier roms are closed sourced just like OEM roms like touchwiz, HTC sense and all the others.
Why do you think Verizon goes through such great pains to lock the bootloader. There is no way that I am aware of as they would just get the info from google as they collect the same info.
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Google can't collect the data if the code that collects the data is removed.
GNRDuncan said:
Google can't collect the data if the code that collects the data is removed.
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You could try but buy doing so you would lose all access to Google Apps. There is one project that I know of that is working to remove all Google stuff from Android. CM has the same plan but like I said you would lose all access to Google Apps in doing so. It's all part of just about every OS on the planet.
zelendel said:
Oh I know. I generally dont buy US based devices even though I live here. Also our carriers here put their own version of the OS on the device. Loaded down with bloat ware and added code.
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Wise move!
They do add bloatware here, but all of it is just pre-installed apps that you can add and remove at your leisure. They're all apps that you can find on the Play Store (or Windows Marketplace, or Apple Store) and can install as a customer from another provider as well. The only code they're allowed to add is network optimisations.
They can't alter any of the system functions. Take the TNL firmware (T-Mobile NL), all it has is the My T-Mobile app and the T-Mobile logo+tune at boot. That's the entire branding. It's hardly worth the word 'Branding', all they did was slap a sticker on it and insert a businesscard, so to speak.
And you're free to just flash any other firmware, as flashing, rooting and using CustomROMS can't void the warranty due to the EU laws. Even KNOX 0x1 doesn't matter.
I do Samsung-based tech support for T-Mobile NL (which is why I know what they can and can't do here), and half my day consists of helping users flash the Unbranded firmware over the Branded one, through the official contact channels. Samsung will even do it for you if you take the device to a Service Center. Managed to wipe your IMEI? Take it to a Service Center with proof of purchase and they'll fix it for you in minutes. Sending in a device with a broken screen that has Cyanogenmod on it gets a new screen and returned to the customer under warranty.
The other half of my day is sometimes spend explaining to users why, due to privacy laws, a provider can't block an app or service from using up your data, and can't block malicious sms subscription services.
The EU council is filled with idiots, but they do have their moments. :laugh:
ShadowLea said:
Wise move!
They do add bloatware here, but all of it is just pre-installed apps that you can add and remove at your leisure. They're all apps that you can find on the Play Store (or Windows Marketplace, or Apple Store) and can install as a customer from another provider as well. The only code they're allowed to add is network optimisations.
They can't alter any of the system functions. Take the TNL firmware (T-Mobile NL), all it has is the My T-Mobile app and the T-Mobile logo+tune at boot. That's the entire branding. It's hardly worth the word 'Branding', all they did was slap a sticker on it and insert a businesscard, so to speak.
And you're free to just flash any other firmware, as flashing, rooting and using CustomROMS can't void the warranty due to the EU laws. Even KNOX 0x1 doesn't matter.
I do Samsung-based tech support for T-Mobile NL (which is why I know what they can and can't do here), and half my day consists of helping users flash the Unbranded firmware over the Branded one, through the official contact channels. Samsung will even do it for you if you take the device to a Service Center. Managed to wipe your IMEI? Take it to a Service Center with proof of purchase and they'll fix it for you in minutes. Sending in a device with a broken screen that has Cyanogenmod on it gets a new screen and returned to the customer under warranty.
The other half of my day is sometimes spend explaining to users why, due to privacy laws, a provider can't block an app or service from using up your data, and can't block malicious sms subscription services.
The EU council is filled with idiots, but they do have their moments. :laugh:
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Yeah here that is not even close to being an option, I spent years working for Verizon Tech support. They try to void your warranty anyway possible. That is mostly due to the fact of the subsidized pricing for phones. Here you dont even really own the phone completely for almost 2 years after you get the device.
Service centers here are few and far between. All warranties go through the carrier. Carriers here love blocking apps. But then Like I said they have too much control over the devices.
zelendel said:
Yeah here that is not even close to being an option, I spent years working for Verizon Tech support. They try to void your warranty anyway possible. That is mostly due to the fact of the subsidized pricing for phones. Here you dont even really own the phone completely for almost 2 years after you get the device.
Service centers here are few and far between. All warranties go through the carrier. Carriers here love blocking apps. But then Like I said they have too much control over the devices.
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The law changed here recently, nowadays the phone you buy with a subscription has to be charged separately. You basically buy the phone and split the payments over 2 years. You own it straight away, you can even sell it if you want, but you have to continue paying for it, even if you sell it, until you've paid it off. If you end the contract prematurely, you have to pay the remaining sum of the phone.
Warranty-based repairs here go through the shop you purchased it from. If you bought it directly from the provider, they handle the warranty. If you bought it from an independent shop or online store, (both of which also sell subscriptions with phones for the providers) they send it to Samsung. Even if you buy it with a subscription.
There are 12 Service Centers in the Amsterdam area alone. (They're not Samsung stores, we only have 2 of those (which is probably still quite a lot compared to the US, considering we only have 17 million inhabitants), but they're service points inside another store, often the stores of various providers. You can go there regardless of who you pay each months.)
(Sorry for the walls of text, I find these things very interesting xD)

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