Related
Hi all, I did a thorough analysis and posted it in reddit so the Essential staff can see it. Here it is... Please post your replies and comments here along with your comparisons and settings listed please. Thank you!
https://www.reddit.com/r/essential/comments/7gjxcm/comparisons_of_new_essential_camera_update/
xterminater07 said:
Hi all, I did a thorough analysis and posted it in reddit so the Essential staff can see it. Here it is... Please post your replies and comments here along with your comparisons and settings listed please. Thank you!
https://www.reddit.com/r/essential/comments/7gjxcm/comparisons_of_new_essential_camera_update/
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have read your post. I did see the update that Essential released and although the file size is about 1 MB bigger than before the update, still the image quality didn't change. I am using this version: MGC_5.1.016_7.0+C2API_v.1.3a_AllinOne. How is it different from your version of Google Camera app?
why do you think the portrait mode does not use the second camera?
hs911 said:
why do you think the portrait mode does not use the second camera?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well two reasons, they never really mention what focal length the second camera is, most flagship say its a 2x optical which is a typical 52mm lens. Second, you can see the stapphy's pic, the bokeh is way off.
well i can not fully agree with you. i admit that i have no technical details for constructing pictures with two cameras but i made a simple test: i put my finger on the mono cam:
monochrome cam covered:
both cams free:
hs911 said:
well i can not fully agree with you. i admit that i have no technical details for constructing pictures with two cameras but i made a simple test: i put my finger on the mono cam:
monochrome cam covered:
both cams free:
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Interesting, I was only saying that because most true portrait set up needs a telephoto lens bc of the focal length 52mm used. The latest OP5 removed their telephoto lens and created portrait solely by upscaling pixels taken by the second lens. There is a article on gsmarena that explains this, so maybe essential is doing the same?!? But to me, anything not using a 52mm setup for portrait is all software emulated.
Essential had mentioned that both cameras are the same focal length (or at least appear to be, they didn't give specs). The difference is color vs mono. And if you look into stereo photography, which has existed since almost the dawn of photography, it's composed of 2 lenses at the same focal length slightly offset from one another similar to the dual camera setup on this phone. It produces 3d images. This is because each image is slightly offset from the other, producing a slightly different perspective. This is also how we see depth with our own eyes.
If you can produce 3d/stereo images with 2 lenses next to each other, then you could calculate how far the images are offset from one another by overlapping them. Where the offset is further, you might assume the object is further and thus produce a shallower depth of field there.
Where I'm unsure is how the expected to combine the 2 images because they won't match identically. Either they're so close that stereo imagery as I described has little to no offset, making my point above completely irrelevant and allowing them to be combined as originally planned, or there's enough offset that they're having difficulty in combining the images which is why there has been very little confirming it's actively doing this.
gk1984 said:
Essential had mentioned that both cameras are the same focal length (or at least appear to be, they didn't give specs). The difference is color vs mono. And if you look into stereo photography, which has existed since almost the dawn of photography, it's composed of 2 lenses at the same focal length slightly offset from one another similar to the dual camera setup on this phone. It produces 3d images. This is because each image is slightly offset from the other, producing a slightly different perspective. This is also how we see depth with our own eyes.
If you can produce 3d/stereo images with 2 lenses next to each other, then you could calculate how far the images are offset from one another by overlapping them. Where the offset is further, you might assume the object is further and thus produce a shallower depth of field there.
Where I'm unsure is how the expected to combine the 2 images because they won't match identically. Either they're so close that stereo imagery as I described has little to no offset, making my point above completely irrelevant and allowing them to be combined as originally planned, or there's enough offset that they're having difficulty in combining the images which is why there has been very little confirming it's actively doing this.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Excellent analysis! The prior 2 lens system that existed was used for 3D purposes only. However, now there's softwares involved that pretty much said to ignore anything that is behind the main focus point regardless of how minimal the depth differences are. The 7 Plus didn't even make use of the telephoto until it detects an X amount of lighting present. There was a video just surfaced to show how the iPhone X turns on it's telephoto at a lower lighting than the 7 Plus or 8 Plus, I forgot which one. Most dual camera phones without telephoto lens is pretty much just like you said color and mono, and the mono allows for better color. The camera system would merge the two together to enhance color, not needing a larger aperture for low lighting since the mono takes care of that.
xterminater07 said:
Excellent analysis! The prior 2 lens system that existed was used for 3D purposes only. However, now there's softwares involved that pretty much said to ignore anything that is behind the main focus point regardless of how minimal the depth differences are. The 7 Plus didn't even make use of the telephoto until it detects an X amount of lighting present. There was a video just surfaced to show how the iPhone X turns on it's telephoto at a lower lighting than the 7 Plus or 8 Plus, I forgot which one. Most dual camera phones without telephoto lens is pretty much just like you said color and mono, and the mono allows for better color. The camera system would merge the two together to enhance color, not needing a larger aperture for low lighting since the mono takes care of that.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't think you're accurate on one aspect, but otherwise yes. The mono camera doesn't do anything for color. It is physically impossible to capture color data on the monochrome sensor. Rather, that sensor is missing the layers/components that filter light into red, green, and blue. The benefits are less objects on the sensor blocking light passing through and possibly (depending on design) more surface area to capture light. So the mono sensor captures more light and more detail. Combining the 2 images is supposed to offer more detailed images and help with exposure. Anything to do with color is from the color sensor and post-processing. Quality lenses can also help the color accuracy, but it's unclear if the lens on the camera is as good as it can be or not.
gk1984 said:
I don't think you're accurate on one aspect, but otherwise yes. The mono camera doesn't do anything for color. It is physically impossible to capture color data on the monochrome sensor. Rather, that sensor is missing the layers/components that filter light into red, green, and blue. The benefits are less objects on the sensor blocking light passing through and possibly (depending on design) more surface area to capture light. So the mono sensor captures more light and more detail. Combining the 2 images is supposed to offer more detailed images and help with exposure. Anything to do with color is from the color sensor and post-processing. Quality lenses can also help the color accuracy, but it's unclear if the lens on the camera is as good as it can be or not.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Oops, I don't mean enhance color as in Saturation and color itself. What I mean is like making the pictures more details with color and contrasts that sort, shadows and lighting. However, it is interesting the guy above cover the second lens and bokeh went away.
Don't know about you but what we have "selective focus" or whatever they call it is a complete trash 99% of the time. We have 2 cameras and they can make great photos. They are perfect for Portrait mode but there is no one to add it I guess.
They added Live photos - Another thing half baked. Can't be used outside of your phone... At least Huawei phones are feature rich, they could make some way to export them as a GIFs or ot export the video so we can share it on another places.
Now they are adding 3D Panorama Camera Mode (there is XDA article about it) another thing NOT SO needed.
Why not invest some time and do a Portrait Mode so we can make great photos?
If you agree with me, send your feedback to Huawei from HiCare app.
Tweet to @huaweiMobile and @huawei on Twitter.
Write on Facebook: @huaweiMobile .
Who knows maybe they will add it later if we give enough feedback.
MartinDimchev said:
Don't know about you but what we have "selective focus" or whatever they call it is a complete trash 99% of the time. We have 2 cameras and they can make great photos. They are perfect for Portrait mode but there is no one to add it I guess.
They added Live photos - Another thing half baked. Can't be used outside of your phone... At least Huawei phones are feature rich, they could make some way to export them as a GIFs or ot export the video so we can share it on another places.
Now they are adding 3D Panorama Camera Mode (there is XDA article about it) another thing NOT SO needed.
Why not invest some time and do a Portrait Mode so we can make great photos?
If you agree with me, send your feedback to Huawei from HiCare app.
Tweet to @huaweiMobile and @huawei on Twitter.
Write on Facebook: @huaweiMobile .
Who knows maybe they will add it later if we give enough feedback.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Wide aperture mode and potrait mode are similar. I think the only difference is you can alter the blur in wide aperture...
Trick with two cameras in P9 is that they are not used at the same time even to create bokeh effect. It was tested many times with covered lens or even when putting some bright thing to fool camera not to show info "dont cover lenses".
So sadly we talk here only about one sensor that still is damn nice, so at least for me its not big deal.
As for portrait mode... It would be nice to have but what we really expect from it?
Most of portrait modes on phones are actually the same as "beautification mode" where camera just slightly blur skin color and do some really small blur on background.
Its not really much and I actually found out that "beautification mode" in our device at level 3-4 do the trick just fine. Also "Food Mode" is pretty nice for portrait, it bump colors and(not sure if its me or that function) focus more on close objects so background have that light blur.
Other thing is that if you really want to make nice portrait mode... Expert mode is best to do it. Yes it need that few seconds to get set it up depending on lighting condition, but for most of time its a matter of selecting aperture mode, AF to manual(its tricky on phone but you can get used to it) and correction of exposition.
Also people should not be afraid of post processing. This is something that actually distinguishes professional photography from amateur. Whole magic of nice image is correcting it after taking picture. Not some heavy photoshoping, but "correcting image".
People today want everything automated and expect professional results. They take 100000 pictures and want them all to be nice.
Yes, photography is about taking lots of pictures, but what matter is to choose that one best, and polish it as much as possible.
Taking portrait is not different, you take few pictures, choose best one and polish it a bit after that.
You will never get perfect result with automatic mode in first try, this need some luck or proper preparation of scene, that no one really do when take pictures using camera.
The wide aperature (not called selective focus) is actually the portrait mode, similar to the one on iPhones(also on Note8).
It does use both cameras to percieve depth and create a bokeh/blur effect.
And if you are talking about P10's portrait mode, it is just the wide aperture mode along with beauty mode combined, and is inferior.
I think P9 does a decent job with it's potraits. It's not the best when compared to Pixel, iPhone and Note 8. But a little bit of tweaking and manually taking the photo at a good distance from subject. You can get great results. Plus you can't expect everything to be in the phone, as there are certain. limitations hardware wise. Best you can do is to see tutorials or find ways to manually tweak camera settings. Or you could get Autofocus, terrific free app that allows you to make potriats out of normal photos and it's very good.
Personally I don't find it the same as Portrait Mode on other phones. Especially with objects it's ridiculosly bad. About the two cameras I guess there is a way to make them work together and give great results. But even if they add it only for the one camera I would be really happy. It's not necessary but would be nice to have it. We see they are adding new things this one will be wellcome.
It's simple. Instead of using a button named "Portrait Mode", use the manual Settings to create portraits and bokeh effect on your own.
Because everyone knows how to use manual settings to achieve it right? Not so simple. Mode is better.
If you managed to ride a bike, create google account, register on xda forum and use phone it self at all, manual mode will be peace of cake.
Its a matter of just remembering what option do what, and you have really just 6 options where 2 of them are really clear to understand and not used too much(White Balance and Focus Mode that is just manual and auto).
Separated modes are handy, but they often "try to hard to be inteligent" and mess thing up. Its especially frustrating when you transfer images to PC and realize that image on phone look totally different than on PC, especially in terms of contrast and details...
Akinaro said:
Trick with two cameras in P9 is that they are not used at the same time even to create bokeh effect. It was tested many times with covered lens or even when putting some bright thing to fool camera not to show info "dont cover lenses".
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Are You sure? I tested it on my P9 and covering one lens (mono) has an effect... Just look at the file size and histogram. I can clearly see the diference (with covered lens there're less highlights).
Of course in PRO mode without RAW. RAW is taking photo from ONE lens.
galakty said:
Are You sure? I tested it on my P9 and covering one lens (mono) has an effect... Just look at the file size and histogram. I can clearly see the diference (with covered lens there're less highlights).
Of course in PRO mode without RAW. RAW is taking photo from ONE lens.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
There was few comparisons topic even here on XDA, but here have another one. Taken in a bit dark room near the window with just natural sun light. I used small tripod on table.
Normally I would use big one and take pic outside, but I dont have big one with me and its windy as hell and Im not in the mood for going outside
Beside here we focus on details of image, not on bokeh effect, so such close up is enough.
I used both method to cover BW lens. Simple thick tape, and second one that prevent phone from showing warning about covering lens: Bright single small LED diode facing straight in to the BW lens(its really tricky to set it in way that it dont reflect in to the other lense...) It not cover image but give big bright white blurred blob in the middle of image.
Image is saved in PNG format so it should not have additional compression artifacts.
https://goo.gl/DK1rjR
(of course download it for 100% size)
As you see... all images have almost the same amount of details. Of course BW look best especially with help of lower ISO.
Overall only auto mode lost some details but you need to stick your face to the screen and literally look for them, so I call it draw for both auto and manual.
Of course we need to remember that scene it self have lots to say, so with different lighting and scene you will get different image size and auto mode settings, but overall you will get the same results: There is no difference in image quality if you cover BW lense, even with bokeh effect.
Akinaro said:
There was few comparisons topic even here on XDA, but here have another one. Taken in a bit dark room near the window with just natural sun light. I used small tripod on table.
Normally I would use big one and take pic outside, but I dont have big one with me and its windy as hell and Im not in the mood for going outside
Beside here we focus on details of image, not on bokeh effect, so such close up is enough.
I used both method to cover BW lens. Simple thick tape, and second one that prevent phone from showing warning about covering lens: Bright single small LED diode facing straight in to the BW lens(its really tricky to set it in way that it dont reflect in to the other lense...) It not cover image but give big bright white blurred blob in the middle of image.
Image is saved in PNG format so it should not have additional compression artifacts.
https://goo.gl/DK1rjR
(of course download it for 100% size)
As you see... all images have almost the same amount of details. Of course BW look best especially with help of lower ISO.
Overall only auto mode lost some details but you need to stick your face to the screen and literally look for them, so I call it draw for both auto and manual.
Of course we need to remember that scene it self have lots to say, so with different lighting and scene you will get different image size and auto mode settings, but overall you will get the same results: There is no difference in image quality if you cover BW lense, even with bokeh effect.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hmmmm... Im not talking about human eyes
The difference is too small to catch it, but if You look into file sizes and at histogram there IS a difference. Not huge, but there is.
The problem is... Huawei told us, they're using two sensors to produce one image. And its true, but its not like as twice as much light unfortunately. Difference is too little to catch it and say that. Covering the second lens is cutting some highlights, thats all... (right side of histogram).
I would love to, that camera is taking light with monochrome sensor and then putting colors on it... It would be AMAZING! Just take color and monochrome photos with same scenery. The monochrome photo is almost twice as fast as color (or has twice less ISO).
Why is that? I dont know, its a shame. Anyway its super camera still.
EDIT: Maybe for different ROMs its different?
Honestly I dont really care if it use both sensors to take pic or not. Its nice camera and that what matter. Many people including me tested it many time, and difference is non existing if you compare them, for most of time difference in size or histogram is a matter of just different settings and small changes in scene lighting, even small tilt or movement of camera can change it. Even if you just focus on different part of scene, there will be change in light expo(it will bright or darken some part and you will get totally different histogram and size). I can ensure you that if you put your phone in tripod and take proper test images without changing scene lighting too much you will never find a real difference, even with slightly different histogram(I actually dont get focusing on it that much... its like rating music relying on its spectrogram)
As for using two sensors and blend both images to create one... Today cameras and hardware is fast enough to take even 3 pictures instantly with different settings(exp, focus), so even with just one sensor you can get nice images that have nice dynamic range, bokeh effect and details.
So dual camera with both the same sensors are really just marketing gimmick and some people get that bait and spread false info about "superiority of dual cameras". Its a matter of creating ONE good sensor with good image algorithms to get perfect image(like proper cameras doing for past decades?). And I dont afraid to say that P9 have really nice camera and monochrome sensor is just additional feature, cool to use but not needed at all.
Yeah mulit-lenses have their pros, but we talk here about phone... you can stick on it additional wide angle lens, but beside that playing with blending images from few senors is overkill.
Jan Philipp said:
It's simple. Instead of using a button named "Portrait Mode", use the manual Settings to create portraits and bokeh effect on your own.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You can't reproduce wide aperture effect with pro settings. You can't adjust focal length or aperture.
Akinaro said:
Honestly I dont really care if it use both sensors to take pic or not. Its nice camera and that what matter. Many people including me tested it many time, and difference is non existing if you compare them, for most of time difference in size or histogram is a matter of just different settings and small changes in scene lighting, even small tilt or movement of camera can change it. Even if you just focus on different part of scene, there will be change in light expo(it will bright or darken some part and you will get totally different histogram and size). I can ensure you that if you put your phone in tripod and take proper test images without changing scene lighting too much you will never find a real difference, even with slightly different histogram(I actually dont get focusing on it that much... its like rating music relying on its spectrogram)
As for using two sensors and blend both images to create one... Today cameras and hardware is fast enough to take even 3 pictures instantly with different settings(exp, focus), so even with just one sensor you can get nice images that have nice dynamic range, bokeh effect and details.
So dual camera with both the same sensors are really just marketing gimmick and some people get that bait and spread false info about "superiority of dual cameras". Its a matter of creating ONE good sensor with good image algorithms to get perfect image(like proper cameras doing for past decades?). And I dont afraid to say that P9 have really nice camera and monochrome sensor is just additional feature, cool to use but not needed at all.
Yeah mulit-lenses have their pros, but we talk here about phone... you can stick on it additional wide angle lens, but beside that playing with blending images from few senors is overkill.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I happen to disagree, multiple sensors can be useful for zoom without losing detail (that's no gimmick), monochrome let you take pics with less noise in darker scenes (I really like that) , the bokeh effect normally use both lenses to create the image. In other phones, LG's for example, the wide angle lens may come handy in numerous situations. Sure, you can have one great camera and be satisfied but I don't think that multiple sensors are just pure marketing.
joser0913 said:
I happen to disagree, multiple sensors can be useful for zoom without losing detail (that's no gimmick), monochrome let you take pics with less noise in darker scenes (I really like that) , the bokeh effect normally use both lenses to create the image. In other phones, LG's for example, the wide angle lens may come handy in numerous situations. Sure, you can have one great camera and be satisfied but I don't think that multiple sensors are just pure marketing.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
eh... I said that, quote: ""So dual camera with both the same sensors are really just marketing gimmick"". I was referring all the time to two identical sensors. Read whole topic...
I mentioned that having telephoto is different story, quote: ""(...) you can stick on it additional wide angle lens, but beside that playing with blending images from few senors is overkill.""
But still as I said al whats matter is quality of that sensor and software side of it(algorithms), there is lots of phones and camera with just one senor but because of quality of optic and optimized software it give you better end results when you compare it to any dual cam in 1:1 comparison
Hi everyone,
As the name of the thread, can someone explain the difference between the two types of Lens group?
8p are only on pro version
7p on normale mi note 10
Reading some info in the web, there s a lot of confusion about this:
some say that 8p can capture more light than 7p, but it is something that I don't think because the sensitivity to light is determined by the sensor itself and by the aperture (f1.7 on both), not by the lenses.
some others say that the images are sharper on the 8p, and it's another thing I don't believe in, unless the quality of the lenses themselves, regardless of their number, is lower on the 7p. And i don t think so
I think instead that this famous extra lens on the pro version has been inserted to correct the strong distortion at the edges of the image that is encountered on the standard version.
below I insert a link (the only comparison I have found) where both models are compared. even the result of the mi note 10 standard is described as sharper!?
but it is difficult to evaluate because none of the photos in this video are enlarged enough to find out if it is true.
Maybe with a link of full res images....
https://youtu.be/ncnnFrdw50M
I'd be happy to know what you think, and if anyone here is an expert in these techniques (I'm sure that's the case) they can also provide some further explanation regarding this difference.
thank you all,
merry christmas and happy day
As i explained in other thread,
Lens element is used mostly for correction, whether its distortion or abberation, it can be color abberation, fringing, and elses,
Some people won't believe it though (i guess most of them were never used and know about how lens elements work and used in all those other lenses in other camera system, named it medium format, 35, dslr, mirorless, etc), and keep saying that it can bring more light. But again, how can you bring more light when you put an extra glass/plastic in front of your sensor, right ? ;b. The correct term is not "more light" but, "better light", since the lens element filter out/correct out flaw from the light. Example would be how "achromatic" or "apochromatic" lens used to minimise the color fringe effect (caused by lens dispersion) - read here if you want to read details : https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromatic_aberration
Btw, the light is indeed determined by the lens apperture and the sensitivity of the sensor itself. But lenses also play parts in how they transmit the light to the sensor, the better the lens is, the better the light quality (notice i say quality, not simply quantity) is, which means, the better the data captured by the sensor. Better data normally would mean better image as well.
Being that case, more lens element not always translate to better image. Since its the quality of the lens, not amount that actually affecting the result most.
I have both and the difference is very little, only the pro manages better backlight and in dark areas a little more light
oooooh a competent person that provides reliable and scientific information. it is always a satisfaction to receive this type of feedback!
so how, using logic, I thought ... the improvement from 7p to 8p is not on the sharpness, contrast or brightness of the photo, but on the various chromatic imperfections that can be found in the saved shot.
moreover, things that can be easily corrected with lrm, i think.
thank you!
carlosml1 said:
I have both and the difference is very little, only the pro manages better backlight and in dark areas a little more light
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thank you! Can you upload some samples of both devices please?
otonieru said:
As i explained in other thread,
Lens element is used mostly for correction, whether its distortion or abberation, it can be color abberation, fringing, and elses,
Some people won't believe it though (i guess most of them were never used and know about how lens elements work and used in all those other lenses in other camera system, named it medium format, 35, dslr, mirorless, etc), and keep saying that it can bring more light. But again, how can you bring more light when you put an extra glass/plastic in front of your sensor, right ? ;b. The correct term is not "more light" but, "better light", since the lens element filter out/correct out flaw from the light. Example would be how "achromatic" or "apochromatic" lens used to minimise the color fringe effect (caused by lens dispersion) - read here if you want to read details : https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromatic_aberration
Btw, the light is indeed determined by the lens apperture and the sensitivity of the sensor itself. But lenses also play parts in how they transmit the light to the sensor, the better the lens is, the better the light quality (notice i say quality, not simply quantity) is, which means, the better the data captured by the sensor. Better data normally would mean better image as well.
Being that case, more lens element not always translate to better image. Since its the quality of the lens, not amount that actually affecting the result most.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
so do you think that the 8p pro version has more sharpness in the shots against the 7p version? I m quite thinking ti sell mine and buy the pro but i don t understand if the img quality in terms of sharpness exists.
left my note 10 right my note 10 pro
carlosml1 said:
left my note 10 right my note 10 pro
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
very interesting, Thank you
The First thing i see Is a different White balance.
In terms of contrast and sharpness i see the same result, but near the external limits of the image, there s some distorsion and lack of sharpness on the mi note 10 standard. Pro has a Better result: look at the leaves at the left limite of the images! There s a difference.
instead in the rest of the image I see the exact same quality of detail, definition and sharpness.
Am i wrong?
mezza8512 said:
very interesting, Thank you
The First thing i see Is a different White balance.
In terms of contrast and sharpness i see the same result, but near the external limits of the image, there s some distorsion and lack of sharpness on the mi note 10 standard. Pro has a Better result: look at the leaves at the left limite of the images! There s a difference.
instead in the rest of the image I see the exact same quality of detail, definition and sharpness.
Am i wrong?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes, it's true, I also see the note 10 pro better, today is a cloudy and foggy day here
carlosml1 said:
Yes, it's true, I also see the note 10 pro better, today is a cloudy and foggy day here
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
sharpness at the center of the image Better on pro, or Is the same in the two versions?
carlosml1 said:
Yes, it's true, I also see the note 10 pro better, today is a cloudy and foggy day here
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
please can you post a link with full res images of both devices in some conditions? Daylight, interior and low light of both devices ... Thank you
Ok now i have both versions and i can directly compare the difference.
first, I notice a larger area of focus, it seems that this additional lens gives a better direction to the light and to the ability to focus. this is also noticeable when taking a photo at night, in a street with public lighting, and the rings around the light are much more concentrated and less widespread than on the standard version.
there is also a better dynamic range, with more details in the dark areas, especially in the low light shots.
another interesting thing is the software, because it is not the same as the standard version. the differences are minimal, but I notice a different white balance, a higher jpg compression, greater contrast and oversharpening.
the images are less "soft" and more processed by the sw.
different speech in the photos of the interior and on the photos to people, where the pro version works better getting better details and faster and more precise focus.
ultimately, the differences are not in favor of one version rather than the other, but in a different way of interpreting the scene.
0.6 x, macro, 2 x, 5x are the same, while from 10x up there is a better detail because the interpolation of the main sensor intervenes, which thanks to better optics, guarantees better details.
verdict:
Is 8p better than 7p?
yes, but only if you want to take photos at "pedal to the metal" of the search for detail and the final result after post production.
but this is such a small difference that 99% of users will have no real benefits in this upgrade, unless they want more ram and more rom.
regards!
mezza8512 said:
...
but this is such a small difference that 99% of users will have no real benefits in this upgrade, unless they want more ram and more rom.
regards!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Can you post the original file from both on pro mode (108mp and raw format enable) in the same condition? Maybe we can see more clearly when heavy editing their photos (raw file) in the lr ?
A Minh said:
Can you post the original file from both on pro mode (108mp and raw format enable) in the same condition? Maybe we can see more clearly when heavy editing their photos (raw file) in the lr ?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sorry my friend but i sold both mi note 10 long time ago
mezza8512 said:
I notice a different white balance, a higher jpg compression, greater contrast and oversharpening.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hi, sorry for bringing this so late, but I'm interesting in this phones. It's not clear to me which version above has higher JPEG compression? I assume it's the Mi Note 10 (not Pro)? It wouldn't make much sense the other way around. Also, which one has higher contrast and over-sharpening - Pro or non-Pro?
I know you probably don't remember it now, but it's worth a shot to ask.
Hi folks,
I am presently playing around with my P40 Pro, especially the camera as this is of special interest for me.
I am comparing with a Oneplus 8 Pro.
What I noticed is that the P40 Pro camera is giving a lot more blurred images at medium to lower lighting, in fact it's surprisingly diffcult for me to get a sharp indoor shot.
This is on .122 Firmware and I am bit at a loss on how to tackle this, in fact it's a bit disappointing for such a hyped camera.
Isn't the P40 pro camera supposed to have OIS?
And this is with very comparable aperture and shutter speed between OP8P and P40P...
Am I the only one? Any suggestions?
Thanks,
Axel
Are you using Google services?
Noexcusses said:
Are you using Google services?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes... Why?... Is there a known influence?
What do you exactly mean by blurred photos. Motion blur or out of focus blur? Motion blur is caused by slower shutter speed. Focus blur by focus failure. There is also blur(bokeh) caused by much bigger camera sensor used in P40 PRO. So depending what your subject is you may experience different results. Longer shutter speed and lower ISO is preferred for best image quality as long as you have static scene. But in scene with moving object, object in motion can be blurred. Personally I am on .121 and I rarely get blured photo due to any phenomena described above.
D1G1TE said:
What do you exactly mean by blurred photos. Motion blur or out of focus blur?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
To me it seems like motion blur from camera shake... But images at around 1/30s with OIS should normally be fine - at least they are on the other handsets I tried...
This is why I am asking, maybe OIS is not working... Anybody got an idea to test this with some tool?
Have you contacted Huawei customer support? Could be faulty, it also may be worth checking out the huawei community page to see if that is the case
TomFordGoesForth said:
Have you contacted Huawei customer support? Could be faulty, it also may be worth checking out the huawei community page to see if that is the case
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yep, that's my fear.... Well, I am still within the return period, maybe it makes sense to go back to the dealer instead...
EDIT: seems a factory reset fixed it, now I need to discuss with myself whether I try to go without Google for the time being....
s3axel said:
Yes... Why?... Is there a known influence?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes some Google services effecting camera... I have tested many ways..
Noexcusses said:
Yes some Google services effecting camera... I have tested many ways..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is very interesting, would you mind sharing your findings/theory ?
Noexcusses said:
Yes some Google services effecting camera... I have tested many ways..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, it fits to my experience, as written above. Sadly that nails the coffin then, the P40 Pro is going back Thanks for sharing, though
Yeah, firlando code method creates on my night shots some effect lines and on a1234567 method i have good night shots but blurry fotos on daylight... Today i will try to use my phone without Googleplay services...
This installing method on Google services witch you need to go on apps and delete playstore etc i think is the keys for the problem... We need a clean installation without deletations..
s3axel said:
Well, it fits to my experience, as written above. Sadly that nails the coffin then, the P40 Pro is going back Thanks for sharing, though
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Wrong
Observation about the lines in the foto. Lines are reflections from lights. I realised it today. Im testing camera without Google services. Tomorrow i will test on daylight.. I think 121 update is bad update.. is there any way to roal back to 112?
Here its a foto without Google services... Still no sharp almost blur... I think is Just the 121 update is worst than out of the box 112 version
We just w8 the 127 update
Noexcusses said:
Here its a foto without Google services... Still no sharp almost blur... I think is Just the 121 update is worst than out of the box 112 version
We just w8 the 127 update
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks for checking this out, then I am a bit reassured
Hopefully this is fixed with a near term update because this really sucks!
Don't know I rolling back is possible,will need to investigate a bit more....
Noexcusses said:
Here its a foto without Google services... Still no sharp almost blur... I think is Just the 121 update is worst than out of the box 112 version
We just w8 the 127 update
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I am also disappointed with this update (121) pics quality is average but video quality is lower than on p20 pro.
Zoom doesn't seem to work properly either - it's digital up to 8,5 -10 x then periscope kicks in.
Noexcusses said:
Here its a foto without Google services... Still no sharp almost blur... I think is Just the 121 update is worst than out of the box 112 version
We just w8 the 127 update
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Erm ... I don't see anything wrong with that picture.
You focused on the closed petal at the left side, it's perfectly sharp, rest blurred as it should be. Not the prettiest bokeh, but okay.
Do I overlook something?
---------- Post added at 07:30 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:24 AM ----------
Noexcusses said:
Yeah, firlando code method creates on my night shots some effect lines and on a1234567 method i have good night shots but blurry fotos on daylight... Today i will try to use my phone without Googleplay services....
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Again, I don't see what's wrong with that picture. Maybe you could point out the problem a bit more in detail?
It would also be quite helpful for sorting out culprits if you (and anyone else) accompany your pictures with some EXIF data, like shooting mode, AI on/off, ISO, exposure, aperture and zoom factor. Unfortunately, XDA seems to remove that data from posted pictures.
---------- Post added at 07:24 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:21 AM ----------
forever_lol said:
Zoom doesn't seem to work properly either - it's digital up to 8,5 -10 x then periscope kicks in.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's indeed the case with firmware .121. And it's far worse in the "Pro" mode, rendering "Pro" mode almost useless.
Let's hope the next updates home in on that fault.
Look the sharpness on 112 version
Noexcusses said:
Look the sharpness on 112 version
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
EXIF data? Answers to me previous questions?
These are important information, e. g. telling me about the aperture of the lens used, making a difference regarding depth of field, possibly explaining why you *perceive* a picture as not okay.
Besides that:
Similar quality, similar sharpness - if not identical.
This time, there was more distance to the subject, widening the depth of field, the "sharpness range."
Let's assume the picture was taken with the main 50 MP camera, having an aperture of f/1.9 - a big difference to the aperture of the telephoto lens with f/3.4.
The smaller the f-number, the larger the physical lens opening. And the larger the physical lens opening, the shallower, smaller the depth of field.
Meaning: With a shallow depth of field, a few millimeters more or less distance to the subject can make the difference between razorsharp and blurry. Result: Only objects exactly within the depth of field are rendered sharp.
With a wide depth of field and a larger distance, like with the telephoto lens, it's less crucial, every part of the flower will be sharp.
I would show you example pictures if I was allowed to use external links - but my post count is still too low.
Just try taking pictures of the same flower with different lenses, one with the 50 MP main camera, one with the telephoto lens. With the latter, increase the distance till the flower roughly occupies the same space in the viewfinder as with the main camera.
Important: Use a zoom factor of 10, not 5 - this makes sure your really switch to the telephoto lens. At present, there's a software bug causing the camera to often use horrible digital zoom for 5 x instead of the real telephoto lens (seems to be connected with the metered subject's distance). You can check this by covering the rectangular telephoto lens with a finger. If the picture vanishes, the lens is doing it's job.
You'll find out that the photo taken with the main camera has sharp and blurry areas, while the photo taken with the telephoto lens is rendered sharp everywhere.
That's the results of aperture and distance.
And that's why I don't see anything wrong with your first flower picture: Wide open aperture, small distance = tiny depth of field = tiny area of sharpness.
The way it should be because we all like that bokeh effect (blurry background, making the subject stand out) more than typical "flat" smartphone pictures.
But this benefit is paid with a drawback, the small depth of field, rendering everything outside that "sweet spot" blurry.
Perfectly normal, nothing to write home about.
Oh wait, I'll dare to post a link anyway - hope the moderators won't kill me for that impertinence.
Just took two quick photos right outside my house, clearly showing the effects I explained above.
http://waagerecht.com/kram/Flower_comparison.jpg
Picture is quite large, so be warned.
Telephoto: ISO 50, f/3.4, 1/196 s. Main lens: ISO 50, f/1.9, 1/846 s. Both shot in Photo auto mode, no AI.
About that numbers: ISO 50 tells me there should be no grain in the picture; the higher the ISO, the more grain in the picture.
f/3.4 tells me there's a wide depth of field, so there should be no greater blur. Also tells me the telephoto lens was used. f/1.9 tells me to expect blur everywhere outside the "sweet spot", main lens used.
1/196 and 1/846 tell me about very short exposure, so in-motion unsharpness (camera shake, moving subject) is very unlikely.
And because the telephoto lens has a smaller aperture of f/3.4 (and lenses with a higher curvature), less light reaches the sensor, thus exposure time is greatly increased, 1/196 s versus 1/846 s.
See why I asked for that data?
You'll see that the telephoto shot is all sharp (until you zoom in; lower sensor resolution plus digital zoom, today's modern pestilence), you can even see the structure of the green leaves, while the main camera shot has everything blurred except the flower's pistils.
That's just the way cameras work.
So enjoy your fine camera, it does a great work and does it right.
Klosterbruder said:
EXIF data? Answers to me previous questions?
These are important information, e. g. telling me about the aperture of the lens used, making a difference regarding depth of field, possibly explaining why you *perceive* a picture as not okay.
Besides that:
Similar quality, similar sharpness - if not identical.
This time, there was more distance to the subject, widening the depth of field, the "sharpness range."
Let's assume the picture was taken with the main 50 MP camera, having an aperture of f/1.9 - a big difference to the aperture of the telephoto lens with f/3.4.
The smaller the f-number, the larger the physical lens opening. And the larger the physical lens opening, the shallower, smaller the depth of field.
Meaning: With a shallow depth of field, a few millimeters more or less distance to the subject can make the difference between razorsharp and blurry. Result: Only objects exactly within the depth of field are rendered sharp.
With a wide depth of field and a larger distance, like with the telephoto lens, it's less crucial, every part of the flower will be sharp.
I would show you example pictures if I was allowed to use external links - but my post count is still too low.
Just try taking pictures of the same flower with different lenses, one with the 50 MP main camera, one with the telephoto lens. With the latter, increase the distance till the flower roughly occupies the same space in the viewfinder as with the main camera.
Important: Use a zoom factor of 10, not 5 - this makes sure your really switch to the telephoto lens. At present, there's a software bug causing the camera to often use horrible digital zoom for 5 x instead of the real telephoto lens (seems to be connected with the metered subject's distance). You can check this by covering the rectangular telephoto lens with a finger. If the picture vanishes, the lens is doing it's job.
You'll find out that the photo taken with the main camera has sharp and blurry areas, while the photo taken with the telephoto lens is rendered sharp everywhere.
That's the results of aperture and distance.
And that's why I don't see anything wrong with your first flower picture: Wide open aperture, small distance = tiny depth of field = tiny area of sharpness.
The way it should be because we all like that bokeh effect (blurry background, making the subject stand out) more than typical "flat" smartphone pictures.
But this benefit is paid with a drawback, the small depth of field, rendering everything outside that "sweet spot" blurry.
Perfectly normal, nothing to write home about.
Oh wait, I'll dare to post a link anyway - hope the moderators won't kill me for that impertinence.
Just took two quick photos right outside my house, clearly showing the effects I explained above.
http://waagerecht.com/kram/Flower_comparison.jpg
Picture is quite large, so be warned.
Telephoto: ISO 50, f/3.4, 1/196 s. Main lens: ISO 50, f/1.9, 1/846 s. Both shot in Photo auto mode, no AI.
About that numbers: ISO 50 tells me there should be no grain in the picture; the higher the ISO, the more grain in the picture.
f/3.4 tells me there's a wide depth of field, so there should be no greater blur. Also tells me the telephoto lens was used. f/1.9 tells me to expect blur everywhere outside the "sweet spot", main lens used.
1/196 and 1/846 tell me about very short exposure, so in-motion unsharpness (camera shake, moving subject) is very unlikely.
And because the telephoto lens has a smaller aperture of f/3.4 (and lenses with a higher curvature), less light reaches the sensor, thus exposure time is greatly increased, 1/196 s versus 1/846 s.
See why I asked for that data?
You'll see that the telephoto shot is all sharp (until you zoom in; lower sensor resolution plus digital zoom, today's modern pestilence), you can even see the structure of the green leaves, while the main camera shot has everything blurred except the flower's pistils.
That's just the way cameras work.
So enjoy your fine camera, it does a great work and does it right.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Jeasus Christ i never used 50 mp sesnor i use the normal sensor for the red flower and also same sensor with pink flower... im changing so many phones every year and i can clearly understand what a foto needs! P40 pro with 122 version is less detailed on normal shots than with 112 , i need t use night mode on day light fotos to get some sharpness..
Also the foto you have posted there is no detailed at all i can taje same photo with my xiaomi mia 3 Stock camera apk... and i can get also much better shots withy GCAM on mia 3!
So I got my S22 ultra yesterday and overall I am very satisfied with it except the sharpness of the corners from the main camera, my old oneplus 8 pro is so much better at that.
It is very noticeable when shooting RAW photos or 108mp.
Is there anyone else with this kind of issue or maybe I got a defective unit?
Left is oneplus right is the s22.
It's the lense. If more than other copies, it's a bad copy. This happens.
Some corner blurring is typical and acceptable. Blurring near the center especially and as it you go outward are far less acceptable.
Every lense has a blur chart that varies by degrees throughout it's image. Even the best primes have blur; this is an exception lense that goes for over $5G! It's blur chart is near perfect.
blackhawk said:
It's the lense. If more than other copies, it's a bad copy. This happens.
Some corner blurring is typical and acceptable. Blurring near the center especially and as it you go outward are far less acceptable.
Every lense has a blur chart that varies by degrees throughout it's image. Even the best primes have blur; this is an exception lense that goes for over $5G! It's blur chart is near perfect.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I know its the lens, I want to know if everyone has it to this level or maybe its just my phone.
Look at the difference with the oneplus, I don't think its acceptable.
TheNewLegend said:
I know its the lens, I want to know if everyone has it to this level or maybe its just my phone.
Look at the difference with the oneplus, I don't think its acceptable.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You need to compare the same lense/cam model. Go to a store and try a demo or two.
Return it if not satisfied.
blackhawk said:
You need to compare the same lense/cam model. Go to a store and try a demo or two.
Return it if not satisfied.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Okay maybe I'll try that. A friend of mine has a s21 ultra, they share the same sensor, maybe I should compare with his phone?
BTW is that the quote of Joey from friends ?
TheNewLegend said:
Okay maybe I'll try that. A friend of mine has a s21 ultra, they share the same sensor, maybe I should compare with his phone?
BTW is that the quote of Joey from friends ?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Remember there's more than one cam... Friends? Never watched it.
TheNewLegend said:
Okay maybe I'll try that. A friend of mine has a s21 ultra, they share the same sensor, maybe I should compare with his phone?
BTW is that the quote of Joey from friends ?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
They might be the same sensor but the S22U has a wider main lens than the S21U. Wide lenses are much more prone to distortion and softer corners. Definitely hoping future models go back to being less wide.
beserker15 said:
They might be the same sensor but the S22U has a wider main lens than the S21U. Wide lenses are much more prone to distortion and softer corners. Definitely hoping future models go back to being less wide.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
For wide angle use the save option to automatically apply correction. This is for primarily image distortion though.
Interesting. My camera app does not have the ultra wide correction option. The other two options are under "picture format". My old Note 20 did have that option.
brachiopod said:
Interesting. My camera app does not have the ultra wide correction option. The other two options are under "picture format". My old Note 20 did have that option.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Wonder if it just automatically does it now?
That screenshot is from my N10+ running on Pie... meh, I don't like rude surprises
Both photos (on the link on the end) are in 108 mode, 2nd taken seconds after the first, so conditions are the same.
On the 1st photo I have just pressed shutter button and that's it.
On the 2nd button I have taped with finger onto the TV tower on the right to lock focus/exposure and then pressed shutter button.
Results are interesting. As you can see on the 1st photo, trees are detailed and sharp, in focus, while the TV tower is blurry, without details.
But on the 2nd picture, you can see the TV tower (or windows on the buildings) has details, even it is in the corner where sharpness is lower then in the center.
I don't understand this behavior, since there shouldn't be any difference in focus because of the distance from the subjects. In normal 12Mp mode everything is sharp and in focus across the image.
I don't have explanation for this behavior, since the size of the sensor, focal length and distance from the subject shouldn't have any impact on that. It looks something is broken in the image processing pipeline.
Samsung issues - Google Drive
drive.google.com
ssglackey said:
Both photos (on the link on the end) are in 108 mode, 2nd taken seconds after the first, so conditions are the same.
On the 1st photo I have just pressed shutter button and that's it.
On the 2nd button I have taped with finger onto the TV tower on the right to lock focus/exposure and then pressed shutter button.
Results are interesting. As you can see on the 1st photo, trees are detailed and sharp, in focus, while the TV tower is blurry, without details.
But on the 2nd picture, you can see the TV tower (or windows on the buildings) has details, even it is in the corner where sharpness is lower then in the center.
I don't understand this behavior, since there shouldn't be any difference in focus because of the distance from the subjects. In normal 12Mp mode everything is sharp and in focus across the image.
I don't have explanation for this behavior, since the size of the sensor, focal length and distance from the subject shouldn't have any impact on that. It looks something is broken in the image processing pipeline.
Samsung issues - Google Drive
drive.google.com
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks for the samples, I tried to focus on the corners too and some how it got sharper however the center of the image got worse even though everything should be in focus.
In 12mp mode it just boost the sharpness with processing. that's why everything is sharp.
TheNewLegend said:
Thanks for the samples, I tried to focus on the corners too and some how it got sharper however the center of the image got worse even though everything should be in focus.
In 12mp mode it just boost the sharpness with processing. that's why everything is sharp.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes, you can have sharp center or the corners, but not both. But why?
I don't think in 12mp mode it is just boosting the sharpness, if it is out of focus, it can't be fixed by sharpening.
It may help if you submit a bug report directly from the phone via the member app as I did (still waiting for reply from Samsung) - more reports, more attention.
ssglackey said:
Yes, you can have sharp center or the corners, but not both. But why?
I don't think in 12mp mode it is just boosting the sharpness, if it is out of focus, it can't be fixed by sharpening.
It may help if you submit a bug report directly from the phone via the member app as I did (still waiting for reply from Samsung) - more reports, more attention.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I already did that too
TheNewLegend said:
I already did that too
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have the Exynos version, wondering if it is also affecting SD...
ssglackey said:
I have the Exynos version, wondering if it is also affecting SD...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Mine is sd so it is..
ssglackey said:
Yes, you can have sharp center or the corners, but not both. But why?
I don't think in 12mp mode it is just boosting the sharpness, if it is out of focus, it can't be fixed by sharpening.
It may help if you submit a bug report directly from the phone via the member app as I did (still waiting for reply from Samsung) - more reports, more attention.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Because of the blur pattern and dof.
All lens have it and you can't have all points in focus at once especially with a fast lense. They always have a shallow depth of field. Even stopped down only objects at the same distance can be perfectly focus and there's always some blur even than.
You can't stop down these smartphone cams, one of their limitations; you're stuck with a wide open lense.
Multi element (typically 7 elements or greater) lens can correct for it to a greater extent but you see the blur chart example I posted. That's one of the best primes available, all $6G's of that beast.
It's not just the blur pattern that the optic engineers need to address. Different colors have different wavelengths so they want to focus at different lengths. There are many tradeoffs. With only a small number of elements in a very small space the options are limited. Price is another consideration.
blackhawk said:
Because of the blur pattern and dof.
All lens have it and you can't have all points in focus at once especially with a fast lense. They always have a shallow depth of field. Even stopped down only objects at the same distance can be perfectly focus and there's always some blur even than.
You can't stop down these smartphone cams, one of their limitations; you're stuck with a wide open lense.
Multi element (typically 7 elements or greater) lens can correct for it to a greater extent but you see the blur chart example I posted. That's one of the best primes available, all $6G's of that beast.
It's not just the blur pattern that the optic engineers need to address. Different colors have different wavelengths so they want to focus at different lengths. There are many tradeoffs. With only a small number of elements in a very small space the options are limited. Price is another consideration.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
But in the standard 12Mpix mode everything far enough is sharp and in focus, using the same lens, only in 108Mpix mode you see this issue. Your statement is valid, but with tiny sensors in smartphones all distant object must be equally in focus. I can't achieve such blur for distant object with Full frame mirrorless (35mm f1.8) and that is another league.
TheNewLegend said:
So I got my S22 ultra yesterday and overall I am very satisfied with it except the sharpness of the corners from the main camera, my old oneplus 8 pro is so much better at that.
It is very noticeable when shooting RAW photos or 108mp.
Is there anyone else with this kind of issue or maybe I got a defective unit?
Left is oneplus right is the s22.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The shaky shot in S22 and steady shot in Oneplus, clean the lens and try without shaking the device, or maybe as you said it could be a defective phone!
After a comparison with s21 ultra there was a slight difference in sharpness, however I don't know why but the colors were much better with the s21.
I'll compare them again later.
blackhawk said:
Because of the blur pattern and dof.
All lens have it and you can't have all points in focus at once especially with a fast lense. They always have a shallow depth of field. Even stopped down only objects at the same distance can be perfectly focus and there's always some blur even than.
You can't stop down these smartphone cams, one of their limitations; you're stuck with a wide open lense.
Multi element (typically 7 elements or greater) lens can correct for it to a greater extent but you see the blur chart example I posted. That's one of the best primes available, all $6G's of that beast.
It's not just the blur pattern that the optic engineers need to address. Different colors have different wavelengths so they want to focus at different lengths. There are many tradeoffs. With only a small number of elements in a very small space the options are limited. Price is another consideration.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Just like glackey said, even with my FF camera both of the subjects will be in focus, I don't think that DOF is the issue here.
steveroysston said:
The shaky shot in S22 and steady shot in Oneplus, clean the lens and try without shaking the device, or maybe as you said it could be a defective phone!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Both of the phones were steady and the lens was clean.