Database Info

Gingerbread 'in next few days' (for N1)

Im sure most of you have seen this buy now, but I figured, no harm in posting it. Lucky nexus users......
http://www.engadget.com/2010/11/08/open-handset-alliance-member-confirms-android-2-3-is-gingerbread/

Yup.
Saw it here too
http://www.informationweek.com/news/smb/mobile/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=228200423&itc=ref-true
This makes Samsung look lazy..

mymansionisabox said:
This makes Samsung look lazy..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Gingerbread landing on Google's own developer phone prior to every other handset makes Samsung look lazy?

hawkeyefan said:
Gingerbread landing on Google's own developer phone prior to every other handset makes Samsung look lazy?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Because Samsung has yet to launch 2.2 on their own "premiere" Galaxy S line of phones.
Of course, this is my opinion.
2.2 has been released officially since May 2010.
Droid X was released July 15th, with Android 2.1
Android 2.2 was pushed OTA to Droid X on September 22, 2010
Samsung Captivate was released July 18th with Android 2.1... still no Froyo
I'm not complaining. I'm stating my opinion...
And now.. 2.3 is coming out and I think most of us would agree. If the N1 can handle 2.3, so can the Captivate, the whole Galaxy S line.
So yes.. lazy.. because now they will have to start working on a release for 2.3 and they haven't even finished a 2.2 release. You and I already know Motorola is on top of this.
Maybe lazy isn't the best choice of words.. but.. whatever. I think you get my point.

Ah, in relation to Froyo, gotcha. I agree to a certain extent.

I highly doubt we will see an official 2.3 release...
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using Tapatalk

hawkeyefan said:
Ah, in relation to Froyo, gotcha. I agree to a certain extent.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah haha. I mean I'm not bashing Samsung. I'm just in fear that they might be a bit over their heads now.
They basically are going to have to stay in constant development with this.. They haven't finished 2.2 yet and now 2.3 is about to be released.
I fear that our phones will be left behind FAR before they really should be.
Idk.. I'm a pessimist a guess.

mymansionisabox said:
Yeah haha. I mean I'm not bashing Samsung. I'm just in fear that they might be a bit over their heads now.
They basically are going to have to stay in constant development with this.. They haven't finished 2.2 yet and now 2.3 is about to be released.
I fear that our phones will be left behind FAR before they really should be.
Idk.. I'm a pessimist a guess.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's strange...last few time I talked with the Galaxy people at Samsung..it was told to me that 2.2 has been finished at all of the Carriers for some time..This makes this very confusing for me to say the least. Is it really Samsung at fault...or the carriers that are at fault with all of the delays of releasing the 2.2 update stateside ? Is it the us based carriers that are adding to it to be able lock the phones down and change things around on it..or Samsung ?
I can understand where folks are saying Android is fragmented if the carriers are causing this, but I don't understand why there can't be unified coding across all manufacturers lines when it comes to the os of Android.After all isn't it based off of ASOP and Linux and isn't that supposed to be all open source..? I do understand the differences in the various hardware requirements between all of the Android phones..but the core os should be the same shouldn't it ? So...who is at fault..the carriers..or Samsung..or both ? Who is really causing the delays..? Who is going to make the determination if any future development happens..the carriers or Samsung ?
Mac

mymansionisabox said:
Motorola is on top of this.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
ROFL. Motorola is on top of nothing. Bottom maybe with VZW on top. If not for VZW, I don't know that Motorola would EVER push out updates. Just look at what they did with the cliq/backflip/dext/cliqxt/devour... it took FOREVER, and most parts of the world aren't even officially getting it (2.1).

Probably buying HTC from now on. They get cyanogen and sense, and somewhat timely updates
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using Tapatalk

Flash one of the great leaked 2.2 ROMs......problem solved. A Gingerbread based custom ROM will likely follow at some point.

Personally I do not even believe we will see a official release of 2.2 much less 2.3. Unlikely that we will ever see a GPS fix either at&t has their handsfull with the new windows phone. I also think that at&t is to blame.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using XDA App

larmor19 said:
Personally I do not even believe we will see a official release of 2.2 much less 2.3.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
And why don't you believe 2.2 will be released? Do you know that the Android developers for AT&T aren't the same ones that work on the Windows phone?

tbong777 said:
Flash one of the great leaked 2.2 ROMs......problem solved. A Gingerbread based custom ROM will likely follow at some point.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It will be difficult without source from SAMSUNG
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using Tapatalk

larmor19 said:
Personally I do not even believe we will see a official release of 2.2 much less 2.3. Unlikely that we will ever see a GPS fix either at&t has their handsfull with the new windows phone. I also think that at&t is to blame.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hmmm... obviously, Samsung is working on a 2.2 release. We have already gotten two leaked builds. The official release will be coming. Now with regards to 2.3. I don't think it's going to happen. It seems as though Samsung is focusing their efforts to push new products rather than support old ones.

"Old Ones?" this phone isnt even 6 months old yet and it'll be obsolete soon. if not for the geniuses here at XDA it would already be obsolete. i love my captivate but i think its getting ready to get left in the dust. hope i get proven wrong though.

Left in the dust? How so? 2.3. Is not even out yet. At least we have leaked versions of froyo...which will still be better then an official one. All we need is the source. The devs can handle the rest from there otherwise the devs spend there time unlocking all the crap that Samsung and att locked down
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using XDA App

This is what I don't like about Android (well not Android itself, but the Android market)...while N1 owners will be playing with 2.3 I will be stuck with 2.1.
F Samsung/Motorola whoever and their heavily modified ROMS. I don't need your Touchwiz/MotoBLUR/etc...just give me the stock ROM so that you save yourself the headache of upgrading and us too.

Samsung originally released their 2.2 back in late September/October to Europe - then was promptly pulled due to it being complete junk.
Now they are re-distributing it this month with a probably still junk release of 2.2. They screwed up so bad due to all the crap they half-assed into these phones (touchwiz, rfs file system etc...)
Samsung really needs to re-evaluate their development team and decide if they are going to be serious about the software side or farm it out to a third party that can program. Because.... their development department is probably the worst out there when it comes to android development.
I mean... there are probably Kirf teams in China that can code better!
Lazy.. no, greedy and not caring about the consumer and not taking pride the end result? Sure I can go with that.

PixelPerfect3 said:
This is what I don't like about Android (well not Android itself, but the Android market)...while N1 owners will be playing with 2.3 I will be stuck with 2.1.
F Samsung/Motorola whoever and their heavily modified ROMS. I don't need your Touchwiz/MotoBLUR/etc...just give me the stock ROM so that you save yourself the headache of upgrading and us too.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This exactly.
Android is supposed to be this huge open source project, and while we can root and mod and flash all we like, we should also have the option of just being able to go to google and get the newest version ourselves.
The fact that not only the carriers (which is to be expected) but the manufacturers feel the need to bloat up the software is frustrating and annoying!

[Q] will a ICS be released to our phone

the release of ICS is very soon, do we have sandwich also, or we will be left hungry
no really, how to know if we will have an official update with ICS

What is it????
N what does it do????
Sent from my GT-I5800 using XDA App

synos_x said:
the release of ICS is very soon, do we have sandwich also, or we will be left hungry
no really, how to know if we will have an official update with ICS
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The answer should be No......
ICS is supported by the smartphones which can handle Gingerbread...
because it is said that both have same requirements...
According to samsung ...our G3 is not designed for GB update....
So how can they update it to ICS ????
Even i would be too happy if i get wrong in the future.....but sadly we think that there will be no GB as well as No ICS update for G3
---------- Post added at 11:53 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:32 AM ----------
Fakso said:
What is it????
N what does it do????
Sent from my GT-I5800 using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ics stands for Ice Cream sandwitch...
its the next update from Google...After gingerbread(GB)...
Froyo>>>GB>>>ICS

100% sure we are not going to get it officialy. we didn't get GB, how do we expect to get ICS? I doubt that samsung galaxy S will get updated to 4.0 by greedy samsuck. they will make the new nexus, it will have 4.0 exclusively for like 6 months, and then they will update SGSII after 6 months of their customers crying for an update... Samsung has no love for their customers, especially for those with less money. We can only hope that our devs can make a port of ICS. GO DEVS!

bro..,,who said we dont get ICS...
samsung galaxy mini which is lower config than galaxy 3... got gingerbread update...
what the hell....why we dont get any gingerbread or ICS...update...
very disappointed with...SAMSUNG...very poor support...

answer is no , we will not get ICS
ICS is supported by the smartphones which can handle Gingerbread...

too bad that we will not have a sandwich, but also too good that we have wonderful Devs to port it

Maybe we can port a cyanogenmod ics if ready...?

well, i read that gingerbread has the same system requirements as froyo, so it could handle ics as well. but i bet we'll never see an official update from our dearest company, samsung, so... maybe somebody will port it.
hope dies last...

Our phone can handle gingerbread (we have cm7 that is 2.3.5, remember?), if it can handle gingerbread it can handle ICS. Problem is samsung want's you to buy a new phone witch has ICS preloaded. Most of the current smartphones that have gingerbread won't get ICS just because the manufacturers want you to buy a new phone every half year.

i really like samsung phones, but the back-up and service from samsung after you have parted with your money is pretty dire, almost as bad as their wonderful kies program!

i think that the company like most companies aim to profit, so they make cheap phones so we buy it, and provide little support so we buy another cheap phone with the latest updates and so on, but thank god we are talking about android here, so we have devs that we support to port the newest updates
go devs yeaaah

v definetly wont be getting ICS at all
---------- Post added at 06:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:16 PM ----------
synos_x said:
i think that the company like most companies aim to profit, so they make cheap phones so we buy it, and provide little support so we buy another cheap phone with the latest updates and so on, but thank god we are talking about android here, so we have devs that we support to port the newest updates
go devs yeaaah
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
well said....

raja4sure said:
The answer should be No......
ICS is supported by the smartphones which can handle Gingerbread...
because it is said that both have same requirements...
According to samsung ...our G3 is not designed for GB update....
So how can they update it to ICS ????
Even i would be too happy if i get wrong in the future.....but sadly we think that there will be no GB as well as No ICS update for G3
---------- Post added at 11:53 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:32 AM ----------
Ics stands for Ice Cream sandwitch...
its the next update from Google...After gingerbread(GB)...
Froyo>>>GB>>>ICS
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
do you know that many phones having much lower specs than galaxy 3 are running gingerbread as smooth as Froyo eg. Wildfire
& in the official launch of gingerbread it was started that if your phone can run Froyo it can run gingerbread smoother than it.
"Galaxy 3 us not upgradeable"that's what the Samsung is selling us,N'djamena those *****es care only for the the pre profit they can generate, which acc. To them would be affected as consumers wouldn't buy new launches.
I tell you G3 can run gingerbread & may be ICS also.. You want proof? Its already running 2.3.5 CM7..
BUT, if you expect it will official it is no neuter than a day-dream..
So, better request our AWESOME DEVELOPERS TO PORT IT & SUPPORT THEM IN ANY WAYS WHEN YOU CAN IN THIS ENDEAVOUR!
Sent from my GT-I5800 using Tapatalk

Guys...please stop this frustration over SAMSUNG.........I know u all are angry on their Business Policy..................even i am angry for their negligence to such a great Phone(G3).....
But the truth is We are not getting it....
So just calm down......We will think about ICS Port later.....
First of all Let Marcellusbe finish the port of Gingerbread 2.3.7....
After successful completion...we can think of porting ICS....Till then please have some patience.......

Its not frustration I'm totally over it a long ago. Its the truth we must face. May be you felt the language was not so cool or anything
but I wrote what I felt with a little sugar coat
Sent from my GT-I5800 using Tapatalk

apparently there are no major perfromance increases in ICS but mostly just UI changes so this increases hope for us....besides, phones like the lg optimus one can run honeycomb itself so, evn tho the G3 is a less performing than the lg O1, it shud b able to support ICS

G3 may get ICS in form of CM9 (depends on marcelusbe ).
I have read on CM forum that CM9 (will be based on ICS) can run on all the fone which has -
RAM : 256 MB
Phone must have GPU
lets hope for the best.

ics does run better.. gingerbread and ics are designed to run faster.. even on low end phones but we will have to port it.. samsung wont:S

raja4sure said:
Guys...please stop this frustration over SAMSUNG.........I know u all are angry on their Business Policy..................even i am angry for their negligence to such a great Phone(G3).....
But the truth is We are not getting it....
So just calm down......We will think about ICS Port later.....
First of all Let Marcellusbe finish the port of Gingerbread 2.3.7....
After successful completion...we can think of porting ICS....Till then please have some patience.......
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
+1
we have to be patient

Samsung will update all GT-I9XXX to ICS

Here's the link to the notice http://www.youmobile.org/blogs/entr...-S-Nexus-S-and-Galaxy-S-II-to-Android-4-0-ICS
Good notices, we're into the GT-I9XXX group

It sound great..Just don't know even will get the update,when will get the update from sammy?hmm...

possible next year

the article is not officially announced by samsung...it is stated only a RUMOR...

Still, some music to the ears...

I have a Samsung Omnia 2 GT-i8000, a device based on Windows Mobile 6.5. Some time ago (May?) Samsung Italy officially announced that they were going to release in the next month a firmware with WM 6.5.3. All community of i8000 is still waiting for such update. So I would not put my hand on fire after Samsung announcements.

samsung and software update doesnt really go together . heck , we dont even have GB firmware for most region. i am not really hoping for ICS anyway.
Now all i am praying for is feature complete CM , that way we can have long term support hopefully.

no offense...
but i want to say that samsung has fu*** all gt i9003 users...
we cant get cm7 with camera working,,no miui..and there is no dev interested in us gti9003...
samsung sgould stop making fun so do others also......if u cant make a phone good...just dont make it!!!!!!
Sent from my GT-I9003 using xda premium

Good news,
Sent from my GT-I9003 using Tapatalk

jasspreet said:
no offense...
but i want to say that samsung has fu*** all gt i9003 users...
we cant get cm7 with camera working,,no miui..and there is no dev interested in us gti9003...
samsung sgould stop making fun so do others also......if u cant make a phone good...just dont make it!!!!!!
Sent from my GT-I9003 using xda premium
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I hope with ICS Samsung will implement drivers based on new graphic structure and won't backport old deprecated drivers.
In this case we will take hope on official support of CM7 (CM9?)
Sent from my GT-I9003

falex007 said:
I hope with ICS Samsung will implement drivers based on new graphic structure and won't backport old deprecated drivers.
In this case we will take hope on official support of CM7 (CM9?)
Sent from my GT-I9003
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Just wish they port ics
Sent from my GT-I9003 using Tapatalk

that's a great news for all of us

I think if we all just pray really hard, donate 20% of our monthly income to samsung, and sacrifice our first born child, there's a good chance we might ICS someday.
THE GODS WILL IT

sicmofo said:
I think if we all just pray really hard, donate 20% of our monthly income to samsung, and sacrifice our first born child, there's a good chance we might ICS someday.
THE GODS WILL IT
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
you forgot that we have to cut off our right hand and blind one eye too.

We still don't have an Asian version GB .. And we pray for ICS.. ignorance is bliss, i suppose..

No ics for i9003!!!!!

androidadvices.com/android-ice-cream-sandwich-mobiles-tablets-announcement-table/
A sad link
Sent from my GT-I9003 using xda premium

who cares... fuss will be porting ics for us when he gets his i9003

It was obvious.

it is not official...

maxoooo said:
it is not official...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It is official. Samsung Mobile posted it on their facebook page.

Yeah Samsung has also confirmed that we will not be getting ICS:
http://www.phonearena.com/news/Samsung-Galaxy-S-II-and-Galaxy-Note-to-get-Ice-Cream-Sandwich-in-Q1-of-2012-more-devices-to-follow_id24941

spacebar2011 said:
It is official. Samsung Mobile posted it on their facebook page.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
if samsung has not decleared it officially even though everybody know unofficially by default that samsung will never give us ICS. Never mind still I am happy with 2.3.6 version & waiting for 2.3.7 version...!

this is not official by samsung.this list only includes the devices which has been confirmed for the update and devices which doesn't have any confirmation are stated as will not get ICS.we CAN get confirmation in future but chances for that are very less.

http://global.samsungtomorrow.com/?p=8894
sorry folks its official

Samsung is no where near lg...when lg can update optimus black...samsung is not only abandoning our phone, even the original galaxy s doesn't get the update...how sad!!
Sent from my GT-I9003 using XDA App

Hope codeworkx returns for cm9 build...
KPQ>UC KERNEL>DEODEX>EXT4>LABEL THEME V2

neojith said:
Hope codeworkx returns for cm9 build...
KPQ>UC KERNEL>DEODEX>EXT4>LABEL THEME V2
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Very little hope of that too. He's got no time for the i9003 and its just lying around somewhere in his house. This phone is one of those unfortunate ones that no one seems to care about or even remember. ROM Manager still doesn't recognize it, most forums don't even acknowledge its existence and Samsung doesn't give two rats about it.
You either have to live with GB, wait for someone to port CM9 (unlikely) or maybe IF Samsung decide to throw a 4.0.x update at it later or just move on to another device that is actually popular and supported by the larger dev community.
I personally got frustrated and went for the Galaxy Nexus but I still have my i9003 and care about it. Its a pretty good device but one of the least supported. The Optimus Black, Droid X and other similar phones have plenty support. Even the super cheap low-end LG, HTC and Samsung phones have more support than the i9003. Its just a mystery why! Samsung just didn't release this device in enough countries.
---------- Post added at 07:16 AM ---------- Previous post was at 07:12 AM ----------
ronhoover88 said:
Samsung is no where near lg...when lg can update optimus black...samsung is not only abandoning our phone, even the original galaxy s doesn't get the update...how sad!!
Sent from my GT-I9003 using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Pretty sad considering that the original GS and its US variants are basically the Nexus S which already has the update.

At least they left the device running nicely on Gingerbread (even if you need to use ODIN to upgrade depending on your region)

Petition.
If you guys still are in hope of ICS for the i9003, go HERE and sign the petition.
Remember to add the optional message and mention the i9003.
Keep it civil though.

So sammy doesn't seem to honor the 18 months update schedule? Original i9000 was released long ago and i9003 deserves ICS according to the plan...

its not official
i9003 has not completed the 12months support period thats y samsung has to rlease it otherwise we can always ask samsung to xchange our phonz with GALAXY SII

Is that possible .... can we demand such a way?
Sent from my GT-I9003 using xda premium

I didn't know abt the 12 or 18 month support thing... Where is this mentioned??
Can somebody guide with a Internet link or whatever so that I can check..
If that's viable then we don't have to start a petition or anything., instead complaint to our respective Consumer Support Forums.. (no disrespect, but petitions are crap which'll never work)

Samsung threw us(

the industry won't let this happen... new phones will get ics officialy, older phones just will get it modded... always works in that way.

Have a Samsung phone? No ICS update? Sign this groubal ASAP..

If you have a Samsung device,and you are not getting an ICS update,then sign this groubal ASAP people...
http://www.groubal.com/unavailabili...-various-samsung-android-devices-from-samsung
I am just sharing this groubal I am not the creator of it..
Regards

nice.

I dont have Samsung but i've signed it for you

while I agree it could be nice to have an update, you should keep in mind that ICS or not it doesn't change much... I mean, the SGS II got the update and with the touchwiz and all you can barely see the difference. Plus your phone won't get any faster so... Better hope for a custom ICS ROM for your phone than from Samsung

signed!!

Signed.. Rediculous.. ICS was released in December, it's April, and still there is no Update.. And even if there would be one.. with the damn ugly TouchWizz

On Samsung you will always get touchwiz..its not a nexus its not android sorry.. but I signed it for you
Sent from my Samsung GNexus <3

ray3andrei said:
On Samsung you will always get touchwiz..its not a nexus its not android sorry.. but I signed it for you
Sent from my Samsung GNexus <3
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
True, if I knew more about Android, I would make another choice.

By the time they push the OTA update the next best thing will be out. Find a good Rom. Will benefit you more
Sent from my SPH-D710 using xda premium

How many petition have we made? and do they really have any effect?

I did not want to mention a rival company, but Sony updated its entire Xperia line of 2011 to ICS, which means your competitors have realised that their customers don’t deserve to be frozen out.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Actually, they just pushed back the release date for ICS recently. We were supposed to get it in mid-march, but the WT19i will get it around end of may/early june. I bought my SE WT19i because they promised the upgrade for ICS, but two weeks ago they mentioned that if they couldn't make their rom perfect, they would even skip the 2011 line, and give ICS only for the 2012 line.

evolsam said:
while I agree it could be nice to have an update, you should keep in mind that ICS or not it doesn't change much... I mean, the SGS II got the update and with the touchwiz and all you can barely see the difference. Plus your phone won't get any faster so... Better hope for a custom ICS ROM for your phone than from Samsung
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Also checked out the Jw4 value pack... meh. I liked the snap stills while recording feature, and the face lock with blink did sound great but execution was lack luster. My wife's GS2 phone seems to laggier on tw ICS than it was on tw GB.
---------- Post added at 05:31 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:27 AM ----------
Executioner1337 said:
Actually, they just pushed back the release date for ICS recently. We were supposed to get it in mid-march, but the WT19i will get it around end of may/early june. I bought my SE WT19i because they promised the upgrade for ICS, but two weeks ago they mentioned that if they couldn't make their rom perfect, they would even skip the 2011 line, and give ICS only for the 2012 line.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
One one hand that sucks, but given what I saw on Sammy's Touchwiz version of ICS it could be for the best. Sorry have not played with the Xperia line, don't know how Sony UI is. They seemed a little more concerned with refinement. But all OEMs are dragging their feet on this.

evolsam said:
while I agree it could be nice to have an update, you should keep in mind that ICS or not it doesn't change much... I mean, the SGS II got the update and with the touchwiz and all you can barely see the difference. Plus your phone won't get any faster so... Better hope for a custom ICS ROM for your phone than from Samsung
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
U r not getting the point ...when Samsung releases a rom or the libs , XDA devs can work full-on on custom roms like cm9,aokp etc ...no one cares for Samsung's roms we want the libs and some base ics rom to start off with...
Our cm9 port is yet to get a working camera and everyone is going crazy asking for ETAs
you know you are rooted when you use XDA more than FB

don't think that petition can solve the problem.... :-(

I have the Galaxy tab (first generation).
What Samsung said about Honeycomb: The size of the screen, 7''. (!?!?!?!?!?!?!?)
What Samsung said about ICS: Hardware. (!?!?!??!)
What I say for samsung: No more. Asus and Sony, wait for me.
PS: Samsung will do nothing, the only thing that wants is MONEY, MONEY AND A LOT OF MONEY.

True... At least they should release libs and files

Dragonoid said:
U r not getting the point ...when Samsung releases a rom or the libs , XDA devs can work full-on on custom roms like cm9,aokp etc ...no one cares for Samsung's roms we want the libs and some base ics rom to start off with...
Our cm9 port is yet to get a working camera and everyone is going crazy asking for ETAs
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You obviously have much better understanding then some of those who are new XDA, most likely because you own a device directly affected. Of course I and evolsam don't know all the nuances like you do. I myself only just noticed the SGS2 ICS ROMs are not as refined yet as the GSS ICS ROMs. The Galaxy S has had to port over most of the ROMs. Which has gone over quite well so why would it not seem like an answer for other Galaxy devices like the Ace and W. Barring an explainantion, the need for code source release in these cases is not something that is readily apparent.
Anyways I now know, and of course I'll sign, anything to aid the devs. That's all you needed to say or anyone needed to say. Maybe more like evolsam will then too.

Don't think that petition can solve the problem.... :-(

signed

signed but won't change anything