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Hi all!
I'm an android developer, and I regularly read the official android-dev and android-porting lists, but on all the fan blogs and from lurking here, it seems that all the good development is coming from XDA-dev!
So why don't you guys do some patch submission? Features like auto-rotating browser and the transition animations should really, really be in the main source, but the official Android team have their thumbs up their asses in regards to UI/polished stuff.. (I bet they're too busy working on the lower level cellular stuff and the ARM-generating stuff like in the *flinger libraries).
So you guys should make some patch submissions over at (http://source.android.com/submit-patches)!
That way, the next RC will have all of these lovely features you guys have implemented.
((Or, alternately (but more ambitiously), fork the entire codebase. Strip out the DRM and add a framework for native code execution. Perhaps that's a pipe dream, though..))
Thoughts?
I think forking the Android source would be a very nice touch, if Google doesn't pull it together. We could still add on to stuff from the official code, but add on all the special stuff that Google refuses to (they've said they won't add the ability to change CPU speed, etc).
Oh, absolutely, there would be numerous advantages to having a fork. It should definitely be discussed! I'm afraid that Google may be trying to exert too much control on their platform in ways that we don't always want, so there is nothing legally to stop us from forking and maintain a more badass tree. GitHub could provide the hosting.
Of course, it might be a waste of effort. If you submit the badass patches, then the good features here go out into all the phones in the next versions. Work on the fork, and only the selected users who are able to flash their own phones can use it, unless some Chinese companies start using it or something like that.
Names?
XanDroid? I'd rather like to see Mandroid with in a slick black theme..
Well to me it seems like the only people doing cool things right now with android have rooted devices
So why cant you ***** a little on google lists to make them actually do some work. The Roadmap @ http://source.android.com/roadmap is a joke. Either they give us root or they start working imo. =)
Seanambers said:
Well to me it seems like the only people doing cool things right now with android have rooted devices
So why cant you ***** a little on google lists to make them actually do some work. The Roadmap @ http://source.android.com/roadmap is a joke. Either they give us root or they start working imo. =)
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Do you think that the release of the new unlocked Dev phones will change things?
Yeah it'll most probably shake things up a bit, however what about all those that already have a g1?
I for sure isnt buying a new phone to get root.
But even so, we're still talking about modifications to the OS and the packaged applications, which would be released in the next RC version, so even non-root users would get the features in the next update, along with anyone running Android on something besides a G1.
my .02
Id say submit some of the things found here and see what goog does with it, if they openly add these things that need root at this point and let xda dev participate in the OS with such submitions...then cool thats how open source works best, when anybody can add to the project, a phone OS utopia
If they ignore it then, a fork is the way to go but give google a chance to do the right thing first before, just leaving them in the xdadevs dust with a custom distro...
bhang said:
Id say submit some of the things found here and see what goog does with it, if they openly add these things that need root at this point and let xda dev participate in the OS with such submitions...then cool thats how open source works best, when anybody can add to the project, a phone OS utopia
If they ignore it then, a fork is the way to go but give google a chance to do the right thing first before, just leaving them in the xdadevs dust with a custom distro...
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Google has refused to add multiple features. They feel that they aren't necessary, or that your average consumer wouldn't want it (main thing I can think of atm is CPU speed).
If they don't add the features we request, simply because *they* don't like them, then a fork would get us exactly what we want/need. After we fork it, and the number of users using stock Android plummet, maybe they will listen .
I see a problem with forking... who says what is allowed and not allowed? That is the main problem. Now if you wanted to just add an app that would be one thing but there is not going to be an easy way to do this.
Gary13579 said:
Google has refused to add multiple features. They feel that they aren't necessary, or that your average consumer wouldn't want it (main thing I can think of atm is CPU speed).
If they don't add the features we request, simply because *they* don't like them, then a fork would get us exactly what we want/need. After we fork it, and the number of users using stock Android plummet, maybe they will listen .
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Given the number of G1s with modified fw installed compared to the total number of sold units, I somehow doubt the number of users is going to plummet.
IMHO it would be a needless fork unless some new or considerably modified features were planned. Better to just patch the functionality into the official builds, if at all possible.
I'm not convinced by that logic. There would be an important difference between a fork and patched versions of the firmware, as a fork would have a totally different design philosophy. Whereas Android is focused on speed (or whatever the hell they're concentrating on..but to be honest, I think they're dicking about over there), Mandroid could have more focus on polished features and low-level access. ((And! No DRM, and I'd like to see some more security features..ZRTP?))
Either way, I think it's really important for the success of the open future of phones that the open source community take and give back. There's no need for the back-and-forth like with, say, PSP-cracking as we have the source code and we are allowed to do whatever we like with it. If we just keep patching what they give us and keeping the modifications closed, then we aren't really in control.
As for project management, I'm absolutely sure there are people who are capable of maintaining an active open-source project such as this, as long as there is a well-thought out design philosophy. I'd love to be involved, if enough people are willing to give it a shot. But, first, it'd be easier just to submit patches.
Miserlou! said:
PSP-cracking
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PSP cracking is insanely different. If you were in that scene, does my name look familiar ? Was net admin at toc2rta/malloc, admin of psp-hacks.com, worked with a lot of people on a lot of stuff that I barely remember as it was years ago .
But for the PSP, we were working with a system we knew nothing about. So yes, Android would be a lot simpler to work with. But if Google doesn't listen to us, it's not like it would really matter.
neoobs said:
I see a problem with forking... who says what is allowed and not allowed? That is the main problem. Now if you wanted to just add an app that would be one thing but there is not going to be an easy way to do this.
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Android is licensed by both the Apache Software License (do whatever you want with it) and the General Public License (do whatever you want with it as long as you make the source code available for others). We are certainly allowed to do this, but the problem lies with the G1 owners running the official RC30. They wont have the rights required to flash the image which leaves them out of the party.
2 words
The community(did I spell that right?)
Bhang
Datruesurfer said:
Android is licensed by both the Apache Software License (do whatever you want with it) and the General Public License (do whatever you want with it as long as you make the source code available for others). We are certainly allowed to do this, but the problem lies with the G1 owners running the official RC30. They wont have the rights required to flash the image which leaves them out of the party.
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I meant who is going to the be decision maker of what features will be added... The Community as a whole? What about some that want it but only 25% of the community wants it?
neoobs said:
I meant who is going to the be decision maker of what features will be added... The Community as a whole? What about some that want it but only 25% of the community wants it?
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That's what project leads are for. And hypothetically when enough people are dissatisfied with the xda-dev fork they will go and create their own fork. Except I don't think there is any real argument yet to go and create an xda-dev fork in the first place. Forking an operating system meaningfully is not a weekend project for a single person.
I have said it before, let's give them a bit more of a chance, a fork isn't something a guy can do in a weekend.
So let's see what happens in RC3X, the next release will give folks a bbetter idea of where their heads are at. If enough of the community is unhappy there will be a fork
Bhang
Android apps are about to get 3 times faster!
Myriad Group AG, a member of the Open Handset Alliance, unveiled yesterday a brand new high performance virtual machine, named Dalvik Turbo. It would replace the standard Dalvik engine that Android uses to run applications.
Dalvik Turbo increases application execution speed by up to three times ‐ allowing OEMs and operators to bring smoother delivery and more complex applications to Android phones, while also providing substantial battery life improvements when running resource intensive tasks. It also enables developers to take full advantage of Android, allowing them to create games boasting advanced graphics and complex models while retaining full compatibility with existing software.
You can bet the guys at Google are all over this right this moment. A three times speed increase on Android apps would allow even the G1 to run the most complex apps. It would also improve battery life, something smartphones tend to suck at. However, the best part about this is “full compatibility with existing software”, meaning we could see the benefits of this new Dalvik virtual machine very, very soon. This is one of the beauties of Android, things like these could only happen on an open environment where several companies innovate together.
The guys from Myriad will be at the Mobile World Congress in Barcelona from 15th‐18th February 2010. That is just around the corner. This is going to be one of the biggest news during the event, can’t wait for it.
Late to the party.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=630523
i could live with my apps running 3 times faster, but wont bealive it till i see it
prettyboy85712 said:
Late to the party.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=630523
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Lame response
I think this is great news especially since they're a member of the Open Handset Alliance.
I knew that the VM had to be improved if we wanted any big Android performance improvements. Why haven't any devs tried optimizing DalvikVM?
With all the source available, why hasn't someone modded the window manager to implement real multitasking?
I've only seen tweaks here and there... if the source is available to both homebrewers and manufacturers, why can't we make something as good as what HTC has done to Android for the Hero?
PSP_Hacker said:
I think this is great news especially since they're a member of the Open Handset Alliance.
I knew that the VM had to be improved if we wanted any big Android performance improvements. Why haven't any devs tried optimizing DalvikVM?
With all the source available, why hasn't someone modded the window manager to implement real multitasking?
I've only seen tweaks here and there... if the source is available to both homebrewers and manufacturers, why can't we make something as good as what HTC has done to Android for the Hero?
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Click to collapse
1. we are not a company where we can have deadlines of stuff and devs get paid at least 150,000 a year.
2. we have devs that do this for their own enjoyment and their own liking. If the little tweaks here and there are enough for them to enjoy the phone, its their call since they are the publisher of the product.
3. lastly, i'm sure pay all these devs at least $150,000 a year on top of what they earn on their regular work and I'll tell you, we would have a blast of new improved stuff.
4. It's not that all devs want money. But devs won't do something so hard, esp if you have to do research and stuff, and it'll prolly take months in research at a company, for free. If companies are researching on improving those fields, why would our devs spend time improving the same said fields?
just thank our devs for the hardwork they do and for all the overclocking and stuff they spend their free time on.
PSP_Hacker said:
I think this is great news especially since they're a member of the Open Handset Alliance.
I knew that the VM had to be improved if we wanted any big Android performance improvements. Why haven't any devs tried optimizing DalvikVM?
With all the source available, why hasn't someone modded the window manager to implement real multitasking?
I've only seen tweaks here and there... if the source is available to both homebrewers and manufacturers, why can't we make something as good as what HTC has done to Android for the Hero?
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Click to collapse
1) I think the majority of us don't like Sense.
2) Why don't you do it?
3) Read the post above mine.
PSP_Hacker said:
Lame response
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Well not really. We are a huge site and avoiding multiple threads on the same subject really helps when searching for answers.
So please use:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=630523
Thanks
Mike
First, let me say up front that I have the utmost respect for the developers in the Captivate forum. It's a handicapped device that has much more potential than I think we'll ever be able to tap, simply because there isn't much motivation for Samsung to fix its biggest issues. Let's face it: The things we like most about our favorite Android handsets are precisely the things that make them seem "too complex" to the non non-technical general public. I think that the Galaxy S line has been a huge dissapointment to enthusiasts, and a big "ooh, ahh" for the iPhone-types.
That being said, let me move on to my main gripe: Through my Droid Incredible, I fell in love with flashing ROMs. If it had a higher build number, I flashed it. And you know why? Because it was better a better build. Newer baseband versions fixed more problems than it caused. I could flash ROMs on a train versus needing to be at my desktop for an exhaustive multi-step shamble. And when ROMs were released from build to build, developers in general knew what to expect as far as results.
I simply can't say that that's true with the Captivate. I'm growing increasingly frustrated with this phone and it's idiocy. I hate having ROMs with "Beta 9.3.5" after their title. I hate that half of the releases are to take out some Samsung crap, replace it with some AOSP-like goodness, just to see what sticks.
Again, it's not a condemnation of the Devs. They have made this phone tolerable, which is no small task. I just think it's a sad state of affairs when an OS based on an open source foundation has been so brutally slapped together that it makes a phone with the looks and hardware specs of a Ferrari about as much fun to own and maintain as a Yugo.
Who's with me on this one?
EDIT:
I'm keeping my original post above, partly because there have been too many responses to make removing it reasonable, and partly because I'd like something to review the next time I decide to try and put my thoughts out there to the community.
I never imagined that I would draw so much criticism over this post. I honestly thought I did a pretty good job of making it apparent that I truly appreciate all of the developers' work. I'm a huge fan of the Android platform and of open source projects in general. Allow me to draw a poorly crafted and weak analogy, if I may:
I love my two-year old boy dearly. He's a fantastic kid and big bright spot in my life. He has asthma, and I really do hate providing his breathing treatments. It doesn't mean I'm not thankful for the technology that allows him to breathe, and I certainly wouldn't consider trading him in for a different model without such issues. I would, however, consider venting to other parents of an asthmatic child about how laborious the process of breathing treatments is, and how unfriendly it is towards children his age.
I'm not quite sure how I managed to come across as anti-open source, anti-developer, or at all unappreciative of our dedicated developers - but apparently that's exactly what I did, so for that I apologize. What is really awful is that with one well-intended post I feel that I have ostracized myself from a community that I thoroughly enjoy supporting.
So instead of being constructive... and building a ROM of your own or simply not using them, you're complaining? No one said you have to use them. No one said you have to update all the time.
Definitely not with you.
I think the fustration you're feeling is related to these only having being available to the masses for about 2 months. The modding community started with HTC phones, so they have the momentum. That being said the samsung community is making a lot of progress, and HTC/Samsung cross modding is in full swing. Be patient.
Sent from my SPH-D700 using XDA App
Thanks for your thoughts. I thought I had posted in "Captivate General", not "Captivate Troll." My mistake.
I have actually tried just about all the ROMs available. You may have noticed that I stated that this is not a Dev issue. I doubt many can do better than the talented developers we have here - I know I couldn't. Hell, even Samsung can't.
My point is that I think the Galaxy S line is a harbinger of things to come for Android. I hope I'm wrong, but as Android becomes increasingly mainstream, it also becomes increasingly less important to deliver function AND form.
The average consumer wants sexiness with phrases like "dual-core" listed in the specs, regardless of what the device can actually deliver.
Sent from my GT-I9000 using XDA App
crayak said:
I think the fustration you're feeling is related to these only having being available to the masses for about 2 months. The modding community started with HTC phones, so they have the momentum. That being said the samsung community is making a lot of progress, and HTC/Samsung cross modding is in full swing. Be patient.
Sent from my SPH-D700 using XDA App
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You have a good point, and I have no problem waiting. I suppose I was just sharing my reflections.
Sent from my GT-I9000 using XDA App
I share you feelings somewhat. Thats why I picked a ROM (Cognition 2.1.6) and will stick with it until Froyo officially drops for the Captivate. I also hate having to restore a phone after a flash which is why I choose not to do it often.
vbhines said:
My point is that I think the Galaxy S line is a harbinger of things to come for Android. I hope I'm wrong, but as Android becomes increasingly mainstream, it also becomes increasingly less important to deliver function AND form.
The average consumer wants sexiness with phrases like "dual-core" listed in the specs, regardless of what the device can actually deliver.
Sent from my GT-I9000 using XDA App
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Click to collapse
I actually agree here. But this is sort of Google's thing in a lot of areas. Google Wave, Google Buzz etc. Google MASTERS searching. And everything else they throw stuff on a wall and some sticks and some don't. I worried about that with Android from the very beginning. They often times release half finished products and then allow the devs to finish (or not in some cases) the future of the product/service.
By going to 100 different carriers in 100 different iterations google may very well stop caring about the polished product and just allow the devs to do the rest.
When I had my HTC Hero I had a Flash addiction. Now I just have decided to stick with one build and update it when updates happen. There have been quite a few VERY recent improvements. SetIron's kernel is a fine example. Stuff is happening at a much faster pace than it was when I got my phone 2 months ago. There are twice as many ROMS if not more. Things are going blow wide open when Official Froyo and its source code drop. I think there was stagnent developing at first because we all knew Froyo was coming. If we're lucky Froyo and Gingerbread will share the same kernel so porting IT won't be a big deal either.
FWIW, The Captivate hasn't been out anywhere near as long as the Incredible. Give the Devs some time - it can only get better.
rfarrah said:
FWIW, The Captivate hasn't been out anywhere near as long as the Incredible. Give the Devs some time - it can only get better.
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I think his frustration is more that we have this incredible piece of hardware and the less than stellar job that Samsung has done to finish it off on the software side. If it wasn't for the devs/cookers I probably would have sold my Captivate by now, and I have only had it for 1 month, coming from a Milestone.
Samsung, hire some of these devs to fix your mess you call a kernel and os. Without the lagfixes from the devs this phone responds worse than my Milestone.
bradasmith said:
I think his frustration is more that we have this incredible piece of hardware and the less than stellar job that Samsung has done to finish it off on the software side. If it wasn't for the devs/cookers I probably would have sold my Captivate by now, and I have only had it for 1 month, coming from a Milestone.
Samsung, hire some of these devs to fix your mess you call a kernel and os. Without the lagfixes from the devs this phone responds worse than my Milestone.
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+1
Thank you for saying what I was trying to, but in far fewer words.
the galaxy s phones might be the last of the phones not locked by the manufacturer. and i like the samsung software package but dislike that it only works if x or y componant is still there. i dont get the appeal of aosp for an every day rom but i get that it is a transition for porting other things, once we know what we need to make the phone work with aosp we can make it work with anything. and i think that people arent giving samsung enough credit for support on the device. the stock rom was buggy and jf7 came out and made things better, now we are waiting on froyo and im sure it will be better yet, if the the leaked copies are an indication then froyo should be quite good.
i think the multi step proceedures is dev preferance for clearing data, there have been roms that you can flash over and keep everything. the other issue is lagfixes which aren't available(or needed) on other devices. the lagfix is part of those oh sh!t moments where you need odin, also having odin available is another avenue for the devs. if we could only flash from recovery you would see alot more cockwork flashable roms that are compatable with multiple lagfixes.
i messed with an evo and really got an apreciation for samsung, i felt the evo was of low build quality and that odin flashing a rooted rom is much more convenient than the rage against the cage meathod of adb pushing files and rooting and recovery flashing. rooting a galaxy s is rediculously easy, just an update.zip, or an one click app on the phone, or a one click app on a pc. or for froyo a 3click kernel flash in odin then an update.zip. or flashing a rooted rom with odin.
i have made many noob mistakes and taken risks and got it running every time. i dont know about the incredible but i think with some other devices i would have either bricked or pulled all my hair out fixing it.
i was in the airforce and one thing that people always said was that the two best bases are the one you last came from and the next one you are going to. people were always telling stories about "back in kirkland...." and "when i get to misawa..." but people were always complaining about there current base. i have a fealing that in year or two when we have new phones we will see many thing we hate about those as well. and if we had motorolas we'd hate those and if we had incredibles we see the galaxy s playing asphalt 5 from samsung apps and be like if only my phone could do 3d like that one.
I have one issue with my phone, the GPS. While I'm mad it doesn't really work it's something I NEVER use. Other than that I'm running the latest Cognition rom and couldn't be happier.
gunnyman said:
.....Things are going blow wide open when Official Froyo and its source code drop. I think there was stagnent developing at first because we all knew Froyo was coming.
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I think this is 100% the reason. I fully expect that there will be some amazing things done and some great roms released.
I don't know if it was mentioned or not already but the reason why there are so many beta versions of roms and why newer versions open up issues is for the same reason as above, no source code available. So be patient and I promise you'll be kicking yourself for making this thread.
I am not a programmer, just a user with some technical expertise, but I love these open source OS's. I jumped on Linux as soon as MS Vista came out and the improvements and leaps forward by that community on the desktops has been amazing. When I opened a Win7 PC for the first time, I realized Microsoft is now copying Linux, not the other way around. Just last week I looked at the new MAC OS and I wanted to scream that they were ripping off the XFCE GUI in Linux. Linux is leading the way in Netbooks now and embedded devices are now a focus. If you have ever flashed a router with Tomato, or one of the other Linux router OS's, you know what amazing things routers are now capable of. And then we have smart phones and make no mistake, Android is just Linux in a smart phone. We don't have to deal with a proprietary systems from MS or Apple, where you only get what they hand out to you. This is Burger King baby, you get it your way. Google may be the name on this open source OS, but it belongs to us all. Google can not take this OS proprietary. Yet any time we, the people, wish we can spin off another branch of development with those things we want. OS's like Meego (and I'm sure there will be others) should be able to be ported over, if we wish, in the near future. We may be looking at an era where we can truly buy the smart phone of our choice, install our OS of choice and choose our carrier of choice with ease.
Bottomline here is you can help. If you are not a dev, or a programmer, you can still contribute to this by continuing to use these builds, and report bugs, and you can contribute money to any of the open source efforts, particularly in areas where you want to see more effort. You don't have to sit on the side lines anymore and just whine about how you are getting the short end of the stick by the big corporations. Open Source belongs to us all, take ownership.
i dont think apple is really copying xfce. ..macosx versions are terminal based and therefor unix like and very similar to linux. x11 window environments have been around for many year. xfce doesn't offer that much that i know of that isn't in others window managers. it is possible that the developers on all sides are taking ideas from each other, but i think since power user often have a lot of shortcuts setup to get through common tasks faster that they are implementing some of these things as presets. similarities can just as easily similar minds overcoming very common problems. granted many developers may be running alternate os's and may be inspired by the other. not that i dont believe in corperate espionage i certainly do but i think a lot of things are just obvious solutions.
the problem with phones is that the manufacturers can lock us out and the locks can be difficult to break. you are right that google doesnt own the os but the manufacturers have proprietary source along side the source that they must release because it was taken from google. at some point it makes development dificult. i think we need an emphasis on aosp to build roms from. not because i like the google software, i find it plain and ugly, but because once aosp is figured out there is more understanding of how it all fits together and ports become easier.
i just cant wait to see the day when we can custom order aosp compatible hardware and build phones based on what our priorities are and what we can afford. i know we cant actually solder the boards our selves with surface mount but it could be done on an assembly line with robots if a manufacturer decided to use them to there full potential.
vbhines said:
Thanks for your thoughts. I thought I had posted in "Captivate General", not "Captivate Troll." My mistake.
I have actually tried just about all the ROMs available. You may have noticed that I stated that this is not a Dev issue. I doubt many can do better than the talented developers we have here - I know I couldn't. Hell, even Samsung can't.
My point is that I think the Galaxy S line is a harbinger of things to come for Android. I hope I'm wrong, but as Android becomes increasingly mainstream, it also becomes increasingly less important to deliver function AND form.
The average consumer wants sexiness with phrases like "dual-core" listed in the specs, regardless of what the device can actually deliver.
Sent from my GT-I9000 using XDA App
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Click to collapse
I couldn't agree with your more about your criticism about Samsung - but I'm not sure how this applies for Android as a whole. The closest thing you can say is Android fails to exclude poorly performing companies - but that's not much of a statement, is it?
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using XDA App
GreenWolf70 said:
I am not a programmer, just a user with some technical expertise, but I love these open source OS's. I jumped on Linux as soon as MS Vista came out and the improvements and leaps forward by that community on the desktops has been amazing. When I opened a Win7 PC for the first time, I realized Microsoft is now copying Linux, not the other way around. Just last week I looked at the new MAC OS and I wanted to scream that they were ripping off the XFCE GUI in Linux. Linux is leading the way in Netbooks now and embedded devices are now a focus. If you have ever flashed a router with Tomato, or one of the other Linux router OS's, you know what amazing things routers are now capable of. And then we have smart phones and make no mistake, Android is just Linux in a smart phone. We don't have to deal with a proprietary systems from MS or Apple, where you only get what they hand out to you. This is Burger King baby, you get it your way. Google may be the name on this open source OS, but it belongs to us all. Google can not take this OS proprietary. Yet any time we, the people, wish we can spin off another branch of development with those things we want. OS's like Meego (and I'm sure there will be others) should be able to be ported over, if we wish, in the near future. We may be looking at an era where we can truly buy the smart phone of our choice, install our OS of choice and choose our carrier of choice with ease.
Bottomline here is you can help. If you are not a dev, or a programmer, you can still contribute to this by continuing to use these builds, and report bugs, and you can contribute money to any of the open source efforts, particularly in areas where you want to see more effort. You don't have to sit on the side lines anymore and just whine about how you are getting the short end of the stick by the big corporations. Open Source belongs to us all, take ownership.
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Click to collapse
This is one of the best posts I have read on this forum. What a great insight into the evolution of the smartphone, it damn near brought a tear to my eye and sure as hell made me proud to be an owner and defender of the ideal of Open Source. Sure, my Captivate isn't perfect, but I continue to try new ROM's and use my technical proficiency to try and reason out any bugs so as to provide useful feedback. In turn, these ROM's continue to get better and everyone profits.
I love you guys... *group hug*
Dani897 said:
the galaxy s phones might be the last of the phones not locked by the manufacturer. and i like the samsung software package but dislike that it only works if x or y componant is still there. i dont get the appeal of aosp for an every day rom but i get that it is a transition for porting other things, once we know what we need to make the phone work with aosp we can make it work with anything. and i think that people arent giving samsung enough credit for support on the device. the stock rom was buggy and jf7 came out and made things better, now we are waiting on froyo and im sure it will be better yet, if the the leaked copies are an indication then froyo should be quite good.
i think the multi step proceedures is dev preferance for clearing data, there have been roms that you can flash over and keep everything. the other issue is lagfixes which aren't available(or needed) on other devices. the lagfix is part of those oh sh!t moments where you need odin, also having odin available is another avenue for the devs. if we could only flash from recovery you would see alot more cockwork flashable roms that are compatable with multiple lagfixes.
i messed with an evo and really got an apreciation for samsung, i felt the evo was of low build quality and that odin flashing a rooted rom is much more convenient than the rage against the cage meathod of adb pushing files and rooting and recovery flashing. rooting a galaxy s is rediculously easy, just an update.zip, or an one click app on the phone, or a one click app on a pc. or for froyo a 3click kernel flash in odin then an update.zip. or flashing a rooted rom with odin.
i have made many noob mistakes and taken risks and got it running every time. i dont know about the incredible but i think with some other devices i would have either bricked or pulled all my hair out fixing it.
i was in the airforce and one thing that people always said was that the two best bases are the one you last came from and the next one you are going to. people were always telling stories about "back in kirkland...." and "when i get to misawa..." but people were always complaining about there current base. i have a fealing that in year or two when we have new phones we will see many thing we hate about those as well. and if we had motorolas we'd hate those and if we had incredibles we see the galaxy s playing asphalt 5 from samsung apps and be like if only my phone could do 3d like that one.
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GreenWolf70 said:
I am not a programmer, just a user with some technical expertise, but I love these open source OS's. I jumped on Linux as soon as MS Vista came out and the improvements and leaps forward by that community on the desktops has been amazing. When I opened a Win7 PC for the first time, I realized Microsoft is now copying Linux, not the other way around. Just last week I looked at the new MAC OS and I wanted to scream that they were ripping off the XFCE GUI in Linux. Linux is leading the way in Netbooks now and embedded devices are now a focus. If you have ever flashed a router with Tomato, or one of the other Linux router OS's, you know what amazing things routers are now capable of. And then we have smart phones and make no mistake, Android is just Linux in a smart phone. We don't have to deal with a proprietary systems from MS or Apple, where you only get what they hand out to you. This is Burger King baby, you get it your way. Google may be the name on this open source OS, but it belongs to us all. Google can not take this OS proprietary. Yet any time we, the people, wish we can spin off another branch of development with those things we want. OS's like Meego (and I'm sure there will be others) should be able to be ported over, if we wish, in the near future. We may be looking at an era where we can truly buy the smart phone of our choice, install our OS of choice and choose our carrier of choice with ease.
Bottomline here is you can help. If you are not a dev, or a programmer, you can still contribute to this by continuing to use these builds, and report bugs, and you can contribute money to any of the open source efforts, particularly in areas where you want to see more effort. You don't have to sit on the side lines anymore and just whine about how you are getting the short end of the stick by the big corporations. Open Source belongs to us all, take ownership.
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EsotericPunk said:
This is one of the best posts I have read on this forum. What a great insight into the evolution of the smartphone, it damn near brought a tear to my eye and sure as hell made me proud to be an owner and defender of the ideal of Open Source. Sure, my Captivate isn't perfect, but I continue to try new ROM's and use my technical proficiency to try and reason out any bugs so as to provide useful feedback. In turn, these ROM's continue to get better and everyone profits.
I love you guys... *group hug*
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Well said Androiders!
+10
Then go wait on the sidelines for a cyanogen port. We, galaxy s phone owners. Don't and won't need huge steps beyond what we have. Your expectations are limited to what your old phone needed to perform.
You are right its silly. And unnecessary. Find a new hobby if porting roms isn't doing it for you.
vbhines said:
First, let me say up front that I have the utmost respect for the developers in the Captivate forum. It's a handicapped device that has much more potential than I think we'll ever be able to tap, simply because there isn't much motivation for Samsung to fix its biggest issues. Let's face it: The things we like most about our favorite Android handsets are precisely the things that make them seem "too complex" to the non non-technical general public. I think that the Galaxy S line has been a huge dissapointment to enthusiasts, and a big "ooh, ahh" for the iPhone-types.
That being said, let me move on to my main gripe: Through my Droid Incredible, I fell in love with flashing ROMs. If it had a higher build number, I flashed it. And you know why? Because it was better a better build. Newer baseband versions fixed more problems than it caused. I could flash ROMs on a train versus needing to be at my desktop for an exhaustive multi-step shamble. And when ROMs were released from build to build, developers in general knew what to expect as far as results.
I simply can't say that that's true with the Captivate. I'm growing increasingly frustrated with this phone and it's idiocy. I hate having ROMs with "Beta 9.3.5" after their title. I hate that half of the releases are to take out some Samsung crap, replace it with some AOSP-like goodness, just to see what sticks.
Again, it's not a condemnation of the Devs. They have made this phone tolerable, which is no small task. I just think it's a sad state of affairs when an OS based on an open source foundation has been so brutally slapped together that it makes a phone with the looks and hardware specs of a Ferrari about as much fun to own and maintain as a Yugo.
Who's with me on this one?
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Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using XDA App
I'm much like several of the people who bought TouchPads in the recent firesale. I absolutely love WebOs and the device in general but the thing that's bothering me is that the app selection is absolutely horrible! I know that there is an Android App Emulator on the PlayBook, is it possible for something like that to show up on the TouchPad? I love WebOS and I don't really want to give it up for only Android. I'm sure tons of people would really like something like this on their new Touchpads. Thanks!
Sounds like a great idea hmm...
I agree. I think that porting Dalvik to WebOS might be the best move to give us the Android apps and still let us easily use Linux, including ubuntu apps.
Well the problem would be the license..
lol...good point
license issues?
I thought it was opensource/freeware? How else could Cyanogen, etc., do what they do?
is it possible to port alien dalvik to the TouchPad? We should get some developers on this.
FAILHARD said:
is it possible to port alien dalvik to the TouchPad? We should get some developers on this.
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You took the words right out of my mouth!!
I'm actually trying to find developers for the exact same thing. It should be doable. Alien Dalvik was made in Qt which was ported to WebOS so in theory it's entirley doable. the only question is if there are any developers free to take it on that aren't currently working on a full Android OS port.
I'd really like to get a development team set up for this because alot of people would like to keep WebOS and just have a larger app catalog.
Yeah, exactly what I was thinking. We should look for a dev who could possibly have experience it Qt, though that's not completely necessary. If we gain more support, I'll post a dev thread.
I can't offer anything other than Beer/Pizza money but this is a great idea. WebOS is generally well reviewed and not looked at as a problem so much as a benefit. The OS is solid. The App Catalog is not.
Android Emulator :-D
I would love see a emulator on my TP. I would like to be able to place Android on the device I still much prefer the UI and design on WebOS even though Android is far more capable.
I'm happy to donate to this cause should someone take it up
alien dalvik is not open source, however, dalvik in general as well as the whole android os is under the apache license, this can be modified, forked and reworked (such as myriad turbo/alien dalvik) without having to release the source, its obviously possible... But you know what would be easier, porting android as a whole... Even dual booting would be easier.
Well the allure of this is having the superior Android app selection on the arguably better tablet experience of WebOS. If that were made possible - I wouldn't care about having Android on the device.
I couldn't agree more. As an OG Pre owner I love webOS but couldn't fight everything I can do with Android.
If I could get all my Android apps and keep my TP the way it is would be perfect.
The problem with porting Android right now is we have to use 2.3 which is for phones and not 3.2. I would rather either wait for ICS/4.0 for a port or just get the app market working.
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That settles it there are enoght people interested in having a standalone WebOs android app emulator without having full android.. I'm starting a development thread, doing some preliminary work, and going to look for a few interested developers to work with on getting this going. My touchpad comes tomorrow so then i can really get into it..
Thanks Roto I was just about to do the same.
also, Roto post a link
Up. Beer on me
Here is the link to the development thread.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?p=16904876#post16904876
Failhard since you and I were the first to put in work on this idea i'd like you to help me head the project and find volunteer talent if you're up to it.
I took a look into what goes into a Dalvik port... it's TOTALLY doable just a matter of time and effort..
Unfortunately after i return to college in a week time will be in short supply for me so ALL help is appreciated!
I had never used WebOS before getting a tablet this last weekend. I have been an android fan for smartphones for now (I am willing to move to something better when it is available, otherwise stick to what works). I am a web designer/user interface designer and since starting using WebOS this last weekend, when it comes to the OS and its default apps that come with it, it is clear WebOS has the best user interface of the tablets (I used both iOS and Android OSes 1.5-3.2, Windows 7 tablets don't really count as a tablet OS and that is clear when using it on tablets).
The Android Emulator would be a great idea, but if you want quick development specifically for WebOS, we need to get a program created that can easily and painlessly port android apps to WebOS apps. Also it will take HP courting and reassuring the big players like Netflix, Hulu, Corporate IT Software Development companies that WebOS is viable and have continued support.
HP/WebOS only has a short amount of time to really establish itself. Next summer is rumored to be Windows 8 release and Windows 8 tablets coming. If Windows 8 can create a good tablet interface (WebOS is the one to beat imo atm as it has the number 1 interface), plus it's strong backing of games, program/application support and being able to integrate phone, xbox, tablet, and PC (Desktops and Laptops). Windows 8 is the biggest threat to anyone in the tablet market at the moment imo and they have been very successful in many of their endeavors as of late ("don't poke the sleeping giant" comes to mind, google and Apple have done that).
Due this short Window of time (pun partially intended), we have to establish WebOS as a main competitor to Google and Apple and prepare it for the onslaught of Windows 8. We need to work as a community to get things rolling and we need to push HP to court the big players in the industry to produce apps and content for WebOS and to continue further development on the operating system on their end. If we as a community and HP execute right, it will be a very exciting year coming up.
Hi all
MY QUESTION
How much work is it to get Ubuntu working on a cheap tablet, (in terms of weeks and stress/reliability)? I'm about to spend a year writing tablet software that needs cheap hardware. If I find a capable Android tablet going cheap, is it reasonable to consider getting Ubuntu working on it, instead of restricting myself to the Android OS to use cheap tablets? Would Ubuntu C++ apps still kill performance? (Ubuntu will save me lots of development in other ways.)
ALL comments pleease, however brief and knee-jerk.
BACKGROUND (all feedback gratefully received)
I'm at the design stage of a project to use tablets to improve education in poor countries. Extremely briefly, the tablets will use elements of social media to enable children to collaborate remotely and asynchronously on projects, and game aspects to get the kids excited, who have probably spent the day working on the fields, and to welcome kids with special needs. The system will enable education to continue in complex emergencies, such as droughts and conflicts. Currently most kids drop out after grade one as the education they're offered is so poor. Tablets can support teachers and enable kids to get more out of their classroom and homework time.
The system needs some clever back-end engineering to operate a local social network if there is no internet connection. (I'm thinking something like NodeJS acting as both a p2p client and a server.) It also needs to run on cheap devices, if it is to be adopted by third world Ministries of Education.
I am currently torn between Android and Ubuntu for tablets. Android will presumably be the cheapest platform for the foreseeable future - tablets now go for as little as $40 wholesale. However Ubuntu for tablets now offers the ability to bring a proper IT education to these children, as they can learn office software, desktop OS, etc. Ubuntu also provides source code I can customize, eg, GCompris, Tux4kids, KDE and Epoptes. I can see Ubuntu on other tablets here, but it seems the Nexus 7 is the cheapest tablet I can currently get Ubuntu on and performance is still an issue. Is that fair to say?
I can write everything using C++ and OpenGL to squeeze as much as possible out of every processor cycle. I have been a developer for 15 years, but am pretty ignorant when it comes to hardware/OS level.
My alternative is using something like Titanium and Unity, (I don't think HTML5 will perform well enough), so I have a bit more platform flexibility, at the price of having to develop everything from scratch, and using technologies for the back-end stuff that aren't as ideal, (such as Android Java and/or Titanium JS). But perhaps that keeps more options open for me?
My feeling is I should go for Ubuntu, but the price needs to reliably reach considerably below $100 to become a nationwide system in a poor country.
Obviously any comments or thoughts on any aspect very gratefully received. Don't restrict your comments to my question - I want all your wisdom!
Huge thanks for reading all this and any contributions
Chris
Re-post
perhaps you would get more of a response if you made this a bit shorter, and re-posted on ubuntu.stackexchange.com, android.stackexchange.com, and programmers.stackexchange.com
Also, perhaps a little off topic, but have you considered using coffeescript? :cyclops:
Thought it might be a stackoverflow question, this forum is amazing for tablet OS dev though. As ever I blather on too much...people have complained in the past.
All three? Wouldn't that be bad netiquette?
That's kind of a tricky question because technology is always evolving and prices fluctuate so much that in a year you might be able to get a device for half the price. I'm not knowledgeable about the new Ubuntu options but if your gut says go Ubuntu, than do it.
Thanks, I'd love to say gut instinct served me well, and I'm all for intuition, but I wouldn't trust it enough to dedicate 6 months of development on its hunch. However these replies and the act of writing the question has crystallized my view a little so I now have more targeted questions.
found this excellent guide on the hassles of porting an OS to a new device...
http://www.linuxfordevices.com/c/a/Linux-For-Devices-Articles/Porting-Android-to-a-new-device/
and this
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/...droid-kernel-porting-from-one-device-to-other
So looks like a month, best case, with expert developers and a device well-known for being hackable. So to port ubuntu to a $40 device, I'm thinking three+ months, plenty of risk, and much pain.
Some other interesting posts:
A little gritty detail on porting kernels: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/...droid-kernel-porting-from-one-device-to-other
A tutorial on building (compiling, not developing) a kernel: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2110842
The best post I found on porting ROMS: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1941239
Porting modules from within kernels: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1751966
Porting cyogenmod, (a ROM, not a Mod, as anyone on this forum probably knows): http://forum.cyanogenmod.org/topic/15492-general-cyanogenmod-porting-discussion/
A new kernel developer: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2173411
A vocab for noobs like me: http://www.talkandroid.com/guides/beginner/android-rom-and-rooting-dictionary-for-beginners/
I was wrong. Ubuntu Touch is based on the CyanogenMod kernel, which is widely ported.
From Canonical's FAQ on the bits of CyanogenMod used: "The kernel and a few low level drivers for network, video, audio and some other hardware features are taken, all the higher level parts have been taken out. On top of this the whole Ubuntu is started in an chroot environment." ( https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Touch/FAQ#How_is_Ubuntu_Touch_connected_to_Android.3F)
As a result it has already been ported to about 40 devices, and porting to a further 30 is work in progress, listed here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Touch/Devices
CyanogenMod officially supports 172 devices, and unofficially supports another 59.
Officially supported devices: http://wiki.cyanogenmod.org/w/Devices
Unofficially supported devices: http://wiki.cyanogenmod.org/w/Unofficial_Ports