Database Info

Software idea for increasing touch usability

Something along these lines may have already been created, but I havent been able to find it. Shell software, and touch flo is all very good for using our phones without a stylus, but we all know that at some point we are going to have to use a piece of wm software, and out the stylus comes.
What I am proposing is a virtual mouse cursor. I came across Innovisoft Virtuamouse, which is controled by the d-pad, but why not have a cursor about 50*50 pixels, which can be moved by finger.
In my paint mockup picture, the red circle would be where you touch to drag the cursor, and the tip is the active point where the stylus would tap. It would be moved by dragging, and a stylus tap would be signified by removing and replacing the finger within 200ms, like a laptop touchpad.
This cursor would probably be turned on and off by a hardware button.
Unfortunately I am not a developer, so this would have to be a project for someone else, but I'm sure people would be willing to contribute.

Since the Diamond having multi-touch seems to be comfirmed (link below), I would bet that one of the first things we see from deevelopers is just this idea. Using the touch-sensitive part of the area around the action button as a trackpad and clicking with a button press.
Diamond multi-touch vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3Owgcos_KY&feature=related

Seems like a good idea, but I do have to question this a bit. You want to use a touch controlled mouse to tap a button? It seems like a bit more work to do. Also, your picture is a smartphone....

The idea is to use the mouse to press the odd, fiddely button, not for constant use.
As for that being a smartphone screen, that was an overlook on my part - I just grabbed the first screen capture off google images.

I think it would be useful for web browsing.
Surur

Multitouch on a single touch screen.

This guy made it on a nokia...
http://30dbs.blogspot.com/2009/03/experimental-multi-touch-on-nokia-5800.html

i dont think this is real multitouch- just seems to remember the first pressed location and notices when pressure is gone

its not really multitouch.
i worked on a simular project (not a game, just tried to do something like virtual multitouch)
and its just like that.
example:
you press on the left and on the right side of our screen, wm thinks you were pressing just in the middle of both sides.
like this (X is your finger, O is the position where windows mobil thinks where your finger really is)
X-----O-----X
or
X----------
-----O-----
----------X
so i think this guy just made "invisible buttons" which you click when you press und 2 of his buttons at the same time.
of course this is just speculation because i cant test it, but that would be the easiest way.

Yep I think it's how it works... But it's not a dumb idea at all, and could be used in the dev of apps

freaksey said:
you press und the left and on the right side of our screen, wm thinks you were pressing just in the middle of both sides.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree with you.
This "trick" can simulate a multitouch but only with single clicks. I'm afraid that you can't simulate gestures such as the "iPhone-like" zoom.
Marshall

lpaso said:
Yep I think it's how it works... But it's not a dumb idea at all, and could be used in the dev of apps
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah, I realize it isn’t "real" multitouch to, but I also think this could be useful for a lot of cool apps on WM.

I was making some experiments and I noticed that it is really hard, if not impossible, to make it work with 3 simultaneous pressures.
Like freaksey said, pressing in 2 different points of the screen will make the OS think we are pressing in a point in the middle. But introducing a third point will not be detected if the point is in the same line.
Here is what I mean:
X----X----X (3 points)
X---------X (2 points)
X----O----X (What the OS thinks in both situations)
So I'm afraid that we can't make applications like "piano".
Marshall

Marshall07 said:
I was making some experiments and I noticed that it is really hard, if not impossible, to make it work with 3 simultaneous pressures.
Like freaksey said, pressing in 2 different points of the screen will make the OS think we are pressing in a point in the middle. But introducing a third point will not be detected if the point is in the same line.
Here is what I mean:
X----X----X (3 points)
X---------X (2 points)
X----O----X (What the OS thinks in both situations)
So I'm afraid that we can't make applications like "piano".
Marshall
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Indeed, not like a piano, but for tiny games (like the nokia guy made) it could be fun

lpaso said:
Indeed, not like a piano, but for tiny games (like the nokia guy made) it could be fun
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Of course
Marshall

I reckon u could simulate multitouch for zooming. And here is how i suggest to do it (im not a programmer, so someone come use it (Y)!)
When using a transitional touch screen, a user either presses a button and then releases it (taps it), and then taps another, or drags a stylus across the screen. When a user taps, there is a space of a few milliseconds of no input between the taps, so is recognisable.
When a user drags a stylus, the change in location is continuous (i.e. the point of contact moves to an adjacent sensor), so is recognisable.
If a user were to touch 2 points, the point of contact would appear to move straight to another point (not adjacent) immediately. This would then be recognisable as 2 points of contact, rather than just 2 taps.
This would allow 2 fingered gestures, even if the system wouldn't know the exact location of the 2 points of contact.

try this... here can you see where your phone thinks your finger is.
(to go into "singlepoint mode" draw at least 1 point on your screen and then you can change into it)
just copy to phone and run it

I am not a hardware engineer by any stretch of the imagination, but I feel this is more of a software limitation than anything else.
The fact that windows mobile can take two points of pressure and use the middle of the area as the true touch point, tells me that the hardware is understanding both touch points.
I believe the issue lies in Windows for not understanding two inputs at the same time. This is the same case with Windows PC's, as multi-touch is not possible on Vista or XP, but instead is being developed specifically for Window 7. Same thing with Windows Mobile, multi-touch is being developed (on a software level) only with WM 7.
Correct me if I am wrong, but the Android powered HTC phone has similar touch screen hardware as most current HTC devices, but a developer was able to (with some changes to the OS) allow for true multi touch recognition.

You are right, viridescent_zeal.
But I already tried what you are saying and if you press 2 point "at the same time" the hardware will immediatly get the point in the middle. It will not move immediatly but it will immediatly result as the point in the middle.
I'm afraid that it is an hardware limitation. If you want to realize the behaviour you are talking about, you have to press the two points with a little delay. This will cause the immediate movement and you can make a software believe you have touched two points in the screen.
Marshall

iservealot said:
I am not a hardware engineer by any stretch of the imagination, but I feel this is more of a software limitation than anything else.
The fact that windows mobile can take two points of pressure and use the middle of the area as the true touch point, tells me that the hardware is understanding both touch points.
I believe the issue lies in Windows for not understanding two inputs at the same time. This is the same case with Windows PC's, as multi-touch is not possible on Vista or XP, but instead is being developed specifically for Window 7. Same thing with Windows Mobile, multi-touch is being developed (on a software level) only with WM 7.
Correct me if I am wrong, but the Android powered HTC phone has similar touch screen hardware as most current HTC devices, but a developer was able to (with some changes to the OS) allow for true multi touch recognition.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It isn't a software limitation. This is just how resistive digitisers work.

here's two artciles from the last 24 hours showing multitouch in action:
http://www.fuzemobility.com/multitouch-exists-now-without-new-hardware-or-software/
http://www.fuzemobility.com/multitouch-in-action/
it can be implemented for games in a butchered form...it's not real multitouch but virtual key presses can work for games.

Very true. Still, be able to do that is better than nothing- if done right it could simulate multi-touch gestures providing we put 1 finger down first!

Android 3-DOF Controller App

Hello guys. I've just released my app's source code as well as a short video at:
http://androidcontroller.googlecode.com/
--necessary improvements list--
on the Android side:
* service discovery so that the client and the server can find each other on the local network (it's very annoying having to manualy enter an IP address in a textfield that's why I change the source code every time and compile with the new ip )
* kalman (or some other kind of) filtering to smooth the sensor output
* improve menus/configuration/interface
* look for a marker and calibrate automaticaly
on the windows side:
* switch model you're rotating somehow (ability to load models via xaml files?)
* interact with the object (I'm already transmitting the touch screen's x/y event)
* smooth the sensor data on the windows side to take the load off the android app
* sounds
* transmit images to display on android or sounds?
I would appreciate VERY much ANY help that anybody could provide. If you are interested in contributing code please contact me and I will add you to the project members list.

Well Done !
congrats

HES A JUBEH IMPOSTER
Just kidding, awesome app btw

wow...this is pretty cool. I would love to help but due to my lack of knowledge in this. Keep up the good work!!

Great work, I'd love to see how this develops.
Starred in google code.

Everybody thanks for the encouraging remarks

re
Génial___$$$$$$$$

Draw custom buttons to the touch screen which send keyboard commands to windows, and implement gamepad support for the sensors? Then this could be used as an input device for a computer.

bjehsus said:
Draw custom buttons to the touch screen which send keyboard commands to windows, and implement gamepad support for the sensors? Then this could be used as an input device for a computer.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
But if I do that then the touch screen becomes just another gamepad, and a bad one for that matter since touch screens have no tactile feedback (i.e. the finger is not aware of wether it has pushed the button or not). Tactile feedback could be implemented via vibration or perhaps even audio feedback with sound for button press but both those scenarios are impractical for a gaming situation where buttons are being pressed at a frantic pace.
Besides I wanna do more than just pushing buttons. Something with touching/swiping gestures etc. Transmitting data from the pc to the mobile device, or sounds? ooor.. dunno^^
I need some good ideas on what more one could do with this ^_^

I'd be more than happy to help, unfortunately the most I can do for you is clean up images and menu buttons. If you need any of that done feel free to hit me up.

woah
This is really cool. Are there any real apps available yet?

henrynhl said:
This is really cool. Are there any real apps available yet?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Plx define 'real' apps.

Actually this is a great idea, I'm surprised no one had thought of it yet.
Blender (open source 3d suite) supports NDOF devices nowadays - I'll see about giving this a try when I get a chance, and perhaps contribute some code (and we'd need a linux server as well, which shouldn't be too big of a deal)

Jubei said:
But if I do that then the touch screen becomes just another gamepad, and a bad one for that matter since touch screens have no tactile feedback (i.e. the finger is not aware of wether it has pushed the button or not). Tactile feedback could be implemented via vibration or perhaps even audio feedback with sound for button press but both those scenarios are impractical for a gaming situation where buttons are being pressed at a frantic pace.
Besides I wanna do more than just pushing buttons. Something with touching/swiping gestures etc. Transmitting data from the pc to the mobile device, or sounds? ooor.. dunno^^
I need some good ideas on what more one could do with this ^_^
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have an idea, heh...use it to control the mouse on a PC.
There are remotes that work using accelerometers and such...by tilting the remote up, it moves the mouse arrow on the screen up, left goes left, etc. Then simply have the screen react to a short tap(which would be a single click), double tap (which would be a double click), and a long press (for right click).
That is certainly something that I would use on a daily basis.

jmhecker said:
I have an idea, heh...use it to control the mouse on a PC.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks for your feedback jmhecker! Do you mean like a wiimote? If so then unfortunately that's not possible with the HTC Dream unless the user performs some kind of calibration process first (because the device has no way of knowing where the monitor is). So first some sort of calibration would be necessary, which could be done by placing a marker/qr code on the monitor then pointing the camera OR just pointing the device to the middle of the screen and pressing a button (which is what i"m doing now to calibrate).
Jubei

Jubei said:
Thanks for your feedback jmhecker! Do you mean like a wiimote? If so then unfortunately that's not possible with the HTC Dream unless the user performs some kind of calibration process first (because the device has no way of knowing where the monitor is). So first some sort of calibration would be necessary, which could be done by placing a marker/qr code on the monitor then pointing the camera OR just pointing the device to the middle of the screen and pressing a button (which is what i"m doing now to calibrate).
Jubei
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Kind of like that, yes. But, not exactly.
Basically, the phone knows when it is in 'zero' position. IE: lying flat on its back.
Now, I tilt the phone (rotate) to the left a smidge, so it look like / (when looking at it if it were in front of you...what oyu see is the bottom (where the plug is) of the phone. Now, when you tilt it like that, the mouse cursor moves left. Then when you turn it like \, it moves right...tilt the phone forward, it moves down, and tilt it backwards, and it moves up.
Kind of what you have being done already with the video and the plane in it...but, rather than move the plane, move the mouse cursor.
Does that make sense?

This with remote droid...
jmhecker said:
Kind of like that, yes. But, not exactly.
Basically, the phone knows when it is in 'zero' position. IE: lying flat on its back.
Now, I tilt the phone (rotate) to the left a smidge, so it look like / (when looking at it if it were in front of you...what oyu see is the bottom (where the plug is) of the phone. Now, when you tilt it like that, the mouse cursor moves left. Then when you turn it like \, it moves right...tilt the phone forward, it moves down, and tilt it backwards, and it moves up.
Kind of what you have being done already with the video and the plane in it...but, rather than move the plane, move the mouse cursor.
Does that make sense?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I could see this working with RemoteDroid, or something of that nature. Make the tilt like a joystick, and the screen with a touch pad and buttons. That would make a killer game controller

jmhecker said:
Kind of what you have being done already with the video and the plane in it...but, rather than move the plane, move the mouse cursor.
Does that make sense?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It does yes. But i think it would require a lot of work to be usable because isometric or isotonic (speed of cursor relative to tilt angle) devices are not nearly as usable as mice. So in the end you'd spend so much hours coding just to have another mouse, whereas I think this device can be more.
it has a speaker, a display, vibration, buttons, keyboard, a trackball, sound. It has a lot of potential to be used just as a simple mouse.

Drop down menu with touch on surface, problems

Aloha all, Having trouble knowing how to ask this...bear with me.
I am having problems with the menus that are triggered by the 'hover' action of a mouse. Using the surface pro or even my lumia 920 I am frequently unable to operate many menus on sites.
officefootballpools.com tournamentpools.com and a host of other sites have the same type menus.
Normal action would be with a mouse and when you hover it drops down a menu that you click your selection. Its isn't a normal drop down but a .li. html type for the menu.
Im sure this has been discussed but I was looking for some vocabulary so I can search the right threads.

You cant interact with hover images via capacitative touch. The browser has no way to tell if you want to click or just show the drop down, it assumes click. Some sites (with limited success) I have managed to press and hold on a link to show its drop down, then if you ignore the usual right click popup then you can sometimes hit the correct icon, this is on a lumia 710.
Otherwise if you have a device with an active stylus (the surface pro for example) you can get rollover easily. If you notice when you hold the pen a tiny bit off of the screen you get a little dot appearing on the screen where the pen is pointing without any physical contact. This dot can trigger rollover events as in this case windows knows that you are not touching the screen, touch becomes a click, hovering the pen over the screen becomes mouse movement which is enough to trigger rollover.

Thank you for your reply. I understand and assumed the same. I have been working with an x61t for a few years so the jump to capacitive has thrown me a bit.
Okay, so what are web developers doing instead of this type of drop down? I recently read an article that says a lot of developers are moving to the new msn.com type format with nav bars on left or right with no hover...
Anyway thanks again. The volume of sites with this issue is pretty large. Yahoo.com/fantasy chokes a donkey, etc.
Side question, does Win8 have the on screen mouse that I used to have on my Lenovo? Or is that a Lenovo product probably?

Alot of web developers are doing nothing at all. In some cases clicking the link that causes the dropdown redirects to a page listing the other links in that dropdown, that's always handy. Usually most devs create mobile versions of sites which are normally touch friendly. I have seen 1 or 2 sites create iPhone versions before, these worked nicely on android so I would assume they are fine on the lumia and maybe the surface.
I haven't ever seen an on screen mouse before but if there is not one in windows 8 then there may be a 3rd party one somewhere. I am on my phone right now, otherwise I would have looked myself.

One advantage of using "Mobile" websites is that they should be designed with the limitation of touchscreens - specifically, the inability to track hover - in mind. That may help you out.
Alternatively, the Surface Pro uses an active Wacom digitizer (as well as a touchscreen) that can sense the pen at a distance. You can use the stylus pretty much perfectly as a mouse, with hover and right-click and everything.

Pressure sensitive screen

S8/+ has pressure sensitive zone at home button(and possibly all screen). I don't use AOD, but just press the home button location...just act like a regular button is there. Great hardware. I am sure there will be more App using pressure sensitive feature.

And what is the question?

Just queriou why Samsung not mentioning about this.

tedlin said:
Just queriou why Samsung not mentioning about this.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
They are mentioning about it, did you watch the presentation? There was a long segment about how they "moved the home button under the screen", meaning adding a pressure sensitive sensor to the virtual home button, that acts like a physical home button press when triggered.
But honestly, the technology is not complex, it's literally just one single pressure sensitive sensor at one point of the display. The whole screen isn't pressure sensitive, only the very bottom middle is. This is nowhere near Apple's 3D touch in complexity, since with Apple the entire screen is highly pressure sensitive and accurate, but with the S8 only one spot is, and it's not even really accurate.
It works perfectly for its purpose (I use it every single time I unlock my phone), but it does glitch out once in a while, and is sometimes harder to press than other times. Because uses for full screen pressure sensitive technology don't exist for Android yet, it really only makes sense to use this technology purely for navigation. A full pressure sensitive display would raise the manufacturing costs and selling prices, and there wouldn't be a lot of uses for it, since you can easily long press an icon to do the same thing as a hard press would do. Apple's ecosystem is very closed, and for this reason they could adapt a new technology like 3D touch quickly, it'll take way longer for Android to have something similar on the entire screen.