I won't call this so much of a "dream phone" post, as it is a serious suggestion to any hardware devs that may scour smartphone forums, such as these. Anyway, I recommend that the following be implemented as a minimum/standard in future flagship devices (in no particular order)...
Code:
[B]Compass[/B], hardware
[B]3D[/B] acceleration [I](Working, that is. ::ahem:: HTC!! ::hem::)[/I]
[B]TV-out, 720P[/B] [I]([B]1080P[/B], preferably)[/I]
[B]Capacitive[/B] screen [B][I]WITH[/I][/B] [B]stylus[/B] solution [I](Which we all know to be in the works, at least by HTC)[/I] with [B]magnetic sensor[/B] [I](a la Touch Pro)[/I]
*MP camera with [B]autofocus[/B], [B]flash[/B], [B][I]AND at least[/I] VGA video recording[/B]
[B]Stereo[/B] device speaker(phone)
[B]TRACKBALL (!!!)[/B] [I](If you're gonna take D-pads away, THROW IN A TRACKBALL. I mean, look how little space it takes up)[/I]
[B]G-Sensor[/B] [I](And, more responsive. I don't know if hardware or software's to blame here)[/I]
[B]Light/Proximity Sensor[/B]
[B]802.11 a/b/g/n[/B] [I](I want [B]COMPLETE[/B] Wi-Fi connectivity)[/I]
[B]USB Host[/B] capabilities
[B]QWERTY[/B] keyboard [B][I]WITH[/I][/B] [B]offset keys, "Ctrl", "Tab"[/B] and [B]Fn-key NumPad layout[/B] [I](a la at&t's iteration's of HTC flagship devices)[/I]
[B]3.5mm audio output[/B]
[B]IR[/B] (Give me back the capability of using my device as a remote control...[B]DAMMIT![/B] And, with decent [B]range[/B])
[B]Tilting screen[/B]
And, let's not forget...[B]Thin[/B]ner is [I]always[/I] [B]BETTER[/B]
The cool thing about this list is it isn't OS-specific (aside from hardware key requirements), so I feel these should, no MUST be implemented in future WM6.1/6.5/7 and Android devices. Bluetooth's a given, and I'm sure it'd be 2.0 or higher. CPU and RAM I've left out because these can, should, and will vary, however I'd say the numbers oughta be appropriate for a flagship business/multimedia/gaming, overall high-end device. But, I'd imagine 1GHz and 512MB is a nice sweet spot. microSDHC is another given, as is aGPS. I'd really only wanted to emphasize the main varying factors.
Anyway, anyone, myself included, would be willing to pay top-dollar for such devices, I'm sure... No, I'm lying. I'd still try to find the very best bargain I could to spend THE very least possible, but that's besides the point. Feel free to chime in everyone.
It wouldn't hurt if it were a CDMA worldphone, either
Yes, because you can have a qwerty keyboard in a really thin device! What's the point of HD TV-out if you can only record at VGA?
YES!
Except:
- no TV-out
- mono speaker
- mini-USB for power
- a screen that is actually readable in sunlight not like the ****ING CRAP HTC STICK US WITH
- a CPU that can actually handle the software/OS on the device
- how about some decent memory. The iPhone has 16GB+
- a decent price ($200 max with contract)
- decent battery (1 day HEAVY, HEAVY usage - 2+ days light usage)
And there should be 3 form factors for this device:
- iphone
- iphone with a slide out qwerty (which should not add more than 0.2mm)
- blackberry
coolVariable said:
- iphone with a slide out qwerty (which should not add more than 0.2mm)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah, because you ought to be able to fit a sliding mechanism, keys, and mounting hardware in 200 microns!
Seriously, you can put whatever you like in a list like this, but you can't change the laws of physics (and what you're requesting would require that...)
I'm a two year Kaiser user and have been happy with it generally. But the small screen and resolution, plus sluggish CPU is making me want to upgrade.
However HTC (and seemingly other manufacturers) seem to be shifting all UI interaction to the screen only (practically). I know I'm not the only one saddened by this, as d-pads and jog dials have their place and offer guaranteed responsiveness and precision which no screen tech can easily match. Unless you have fingers that look like stylii and a permanently steady hand.
Anyway, I'm just interested to hear if there are other people out there wishing for a Touch Pro 3 / Leo / Kaiser hybrid? Nice big screen, Snapdragon but a little d-pad squirrelled away at the bottom and jogger on the side. I wouldn't mind the phone being a bit longer to make it all fit.
Oh and I'm a business user and can appreciate that on a device like the Leo aimed more at the mass-market, the missing buttons aren't so important. But I think the Touch Pro line could do with them.
More than agree!
hardware keyboard is a must for me also, 2 lines of production I can see:
One for more multimedia non professional use like Leo and the second with more business capabilities like the keyboard
I´m sure TP3 will come out with larger screen, snapdragon and more surprises, but we have to wait at least 6 months for that.
just my opinion
Here some possible options:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=556749
i agree completely !
one of the things that i hate about mobile phone design is that everyone thinks that to make a better phone than the iphone you have to copy it rather than take the best ideas and improve on them.
i'm eagerly awaiting news of the touch pro 3 (rather than the touch hd2 / leo) because a hardware keyboard is important to me - i'm hoping that they'll include a scroll wheel and d-pad like my old kaiser in a form factor of my current xperia with a decent processor and the latest version of tf3d. they're all htc devices so it shouldn't be too hard ...
I agree, too. I still use my iPaq 210 daily not only because of the 4in screen, but for the dpad. It just doesn't feel like a pda without one. I would actually prefer phones to come wit jog dials on the side, but that's just a personal preference. How are we supposed to get anything done without them? I recently got a TD2, and while i like it, i don't think I will ever have it replace both my phone and PDA for lack of buttons. The main reason my BA was used so long was for all of its buttons.
I'm surprised to see people sticking up for jog dials -- I'd argue that the dial on my Kaiser is terrible, and WM doesn't handle 'em well anyways.
Dpads are nice, though. I'm particularly fond of the "stealth" pad on the Touch Pro.
At the same time, they're getting less and less useful. As more and more apps are designed to be finger-friendly, the usefulness of the dpad will decrease. I already find myself using it much less than I did, say, two years ago.
I agree that they are being used less in programs, but honestly how could you like the touch pro dpad? It is probably the worst i've ever used
typo said:
As more and more apps are designed to be finger-friendly, the usefulness of the dpad will decrease. I already find myself using it much less than I did, say, two years ago.
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Click to collapse
Finger friendliness is one thing, but buttons just can't be beaten in some cases. E.g. I use Profimail for email and when replying, I often need to position the text cursor (?) at the very top. If I do this with a finger it's very tricky to get it in the right place. Or positioning the cursor between the words for adding / removing characters etc. is easier with a D-pad. Or when walking and wanting to do things on the phone without giving the full concentration you'd need by focussing on and positioning your finger on the display.
I agree though the usefulness is decreasing but I just don't think it will ever decrease to the point the D-Pad should be removed, but HTC obviously do.
But people are concentrating on the benefits of faster cpus and forgetting the drawbacks of slower input.
What's up guys,
So I'm another potential buyer of the Transformer and I was wondering about the touch screen's responsiveness.
I used to have a Viewsonice Gtab and my brother had an iPad.
Anyway we were both using the Sketch book mobile app side by side
and the iPad was noticeably more responsive.
It was so responsive that there was almost no difference between drawing on it and drawing on a piece of paper.
1. How does the Transformer's touch screen feel?
2. What's drawing with a stylus like?
(For sake of discussion, pretend we have a perfect stylus)
3.How responsive is it just browsing through apps, and the launcher?
(Again assuming we use a perfect launcher and there is not other lag)
Pretty damn responsive. I have a rocketfish stylus and it works nicely in Sketchbook. The iPad uses a different type of glass (not gorrila) that is really smooth. That smoothness comes with the price of the glass being easy to break. My dog has jumped onto my TF and ran across it and there are no stratches. I've dropped it and still no cracks. Let the iPad fall and land on one of its corners, and that screen will web like crazy.
Responsiveness has nothing to do with the hardware of the touch screen. It's all about the OS and software you're running. You could have the nicest capacitive touch screen on the planet and still suffer from input lag if the software is poorly optimized.
That said, the touch screen hardware in the Transformer is indistinguishable from that of an iPad. Any difference that you would "feel" in the responsiveness is subjective and based solely upon how well the apps and OS are utilizing the hardware. Always make sure you're running the latest firmware, and if apps like SketchBook are causing problems for you then you need to take it up with the developers.
Well, I think the transformer has a great TS. I've used several devices with touchscreen before, but this is the best, for now. It seems it's really scratch resistant glass, the only problem is without backlight I see all of my fingerprints
Cool, thanks for the responsiveness. (tee hee)
As far as touch screens go most all android devices are superb. I agree software plays a big part, but it can not overcome design flaws within hardware.
For example I remember the N1 had real multi-touch flaws. And all the Dev'ing the world could not correct it.
I just wanted to be sure the TF has a quality screen.
earlyberd said:
Responsiveness has nothing to do with the hardware of the touch screen. It's all about the OS and software you're running. You could have the nicest capacitive touch screen on the planet and still suffer from input lag if the software is poorly optimized.
That said, the touch screen hardware in the Transformer is indistinguishable from that of an iPad. Any difference that you would "feel" in the responsiveness is subjective and based solely upon how well the apps and OS are utilizing the hardware. Always make sure you're running the latest firmware, and if apps like SketchBook are causing problems for you then you need to take it up with the developers.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
True, but my TF screen compared to the iPad 2 screens that I have used feels a little less smooth. Sometimes when I'm swiping, there is a little tug. Very small, but it is still there, which I haven't felt on the iPad 2. (not bashing the TF, I love mine more than any iPad)
Request to fix Input Lag on Note II
Hi everyone
I just made a video so everyone sees what input lag is, and to have an accurate estimation of how much this is on the Note 2.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MyfkypkNWk&feature=youtu.be
Update 2013/09/23 : Please also have a look at it (pro measurements of input lag comparing samsung to apple devices) : http://appglimpse.com/blog/touchmarks-i-smart-phone-touch-screen-latencies/
Update 2013/10/08 : A test of 21 smartphones' input lag, very interesting
http://www.digitalversus.com/mobile...st-results-21-smartphones-tablets-n29229.html
HUGE NEWS
This is not input lag, it's mainly display lag ! I'll edit the entire post when i got some time.
How do i know that ?
Because if you activate the touch vibration (for the keyboard) and haptic feedback, you feel like the vibration is in sync with your touches (so less than 50ms for sure, maybe less than 20 or 10ms, i will be able to measure it very precisely with a microphone when i got some time); on the other hand, the display is still 90 to 130ms late... So 2 solutions : laggy video software, or laggy screen/digital analog conversion. Maybe something to do with Pentile ? As SGS 1 and 2 were not Pentile, and way way faster than SGS 2 and 3. I don't know if it's fixable, as android seems to be already unbufferized and as fast as it can. By the way, just spam Samsung about it so they fix it at least for their new phones (unlike SGS4 and Note 3)
Introduction for input lag newbies
If you don't know what display lag is, please read this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Display_lag
It's about the same as input lag, except it counts your human interface device's response delay
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Input_lag
Just to let you know, Input lag concerns every phone, every input device, because nothing in the electronic world is instantaneous.
.
Some of you may have noticed that all the recent phones released have a non negligeable amount of input lag, even more than the previous generations that were already bad. If you didn't, no problem, you will be able to see it thanks to this topic, and i hope, understand why this is very very important to get rid of the maximum amount of input lag.
The Note 2 and Galaxy S 3 have about 100-170ms input lag wich makes many of you feel the response to your fingers' moves feeling late, slow, smoothed, and unnatural. It's painful to say that, but iphones does better, and for example, when a very good player of Ruzzle i know tried to play on my phone after playing every day on her iphone, that was a huge issue for her, and she decided to stop playing on my phone just because it was too slow for her, she was 2 times faster than the phone's reponsiveness. Yes, when you move fast, 100ms is a lot. Even while typing, unconciously, you're not typing as fast if lettering appears lately, almost if you activated "vibrating on touch" that is late too. I've noticed that i'm a bit faster typing with vibration off because of that.
Just to say it can bother anyone, almost if you have used a more responsive device even once only.
My hope is that we can find a fix to improve responsiveness, in case if it's not only a hardware issue, but also a big part of software. We are pretty sure that the capacitive touchscreen detection (+ refresh rate of the screen which is inevitable) is responsible for at least 80-100ms of this input lag.
The main target of this topic is to call amazing devs here to help trying to make the Note 2 experience even better. All input lag haters here would be really really grateful if anything was done to get rid of at least some of it, and other people would be amazed to see their phones being fast as light.
Never heard about input lag ?
That's normal, there's a pretty bad communication about it, even if it gets better (see links in beginning of the topic). Gamers are mostly concerned about it with computers, but this is happening on any electronic device.
It's the delay between the input and the output of a device.
It's not about being "laggy" or "choppy", as input lag newbies confuse very often : it's about being late !
It's just a hardware and software treatment, due to several things, as any component introduces input lag (even if it's very small). CPU latency (a few nanoseconds) is negligible. A CPU can't cause latency itself. Refresh rate of the screen (the time to display a new frame), screen input lag (time to analyse images and to send it to the screen) touchscreen analysis (the capacitive detection of your fingers), can result in a delayed experience.The consequence is that when you make a move, the action will follow your move with a little delay. That's what you'll see when looking for it.
But if it's not annoying for everyone, anybody could feel the improvement in responsiveness between a big input lag and a low input lag. It just feels better, even if people can't explain it. It's the same difference for most people between SD and HD, or between a bad MP3 and a good FLAC, or a bad headphone and a good headphone : It's better, but most people doesn't have the ability to explain why.
As electronic and the clocking technique involves input lag, the target is just to make it the lowest possible using good hardware, and avoiding any kind of buffering or averaging that causes delay.
Microsoft made a video about that. They estimate that today, most devices has a around 100ms input lag, and that we would need 1ms input lag to make it feel real, to give you the feeling that you're actualy drawing on your screen, or movig an real object. In practice, as most screens are running at 60fps, 1/60 = 16ms, we could get under 20ms if touchscreen input lag was less than 2ms, with no frame buffering, no averaging on the finger's position while touching the screen, and no screen latency. Of course, it would get to 8ms with 120hz mobile phone screens, but i guess it's a bit too much for now.
Everyone having any doubt about how input lag matters, or wanting to see it in action should watch this video from Microsoft
http://youtu.be/vOvQCPLkPt4 or just simply watch mine (link at the beginning of the topic).
We mostly use to care about input lag :
- On TV or PC Monitors (but it's often heavier on TVs) because of digital/analog conversions, and non real time picture quality improvements. The standard of a TV is between 20 to 300ms (depending on the settings and hardware), some gets lower. Unlike people could think, it doesn't depend of the size of the screen, as electrons are fast enough so you can't notice their latency. The standard of a PC monitor is between 0 to 50ms for the worst ones.
- On keyboard and mices : Most recent mices offers a 1000Hz (1ms) refresh rate, but the normal value is 125Hz (8ms), some keyboards are running at 1000hz too.
- Software delays : Vsync for example, has been created to remove the tearing effect, but it adds delay to sync frames rendering, and screen refresh rate. We can also see "frame buffering" that consist in generating a few frames before displaying it so the overall framerate smoother (less fluctuation), but it adds delay too (we call that input lag too). Frame buffering is usually used to compensate a badly coded game/application.
- For example, in the audio and video recording and broadcasting, converters, buffers, clocks, must be as fast as possible.
The fact is that most people are used to input lag, and think this is the normal response of a device. You just have to watch reviews of recent phones to see that almost nobody talks about it. I'll tell you something : a 1/10s input lag is not a response time you should expect. You should expect a 1/1000s input lag according to Microsoft in the video i just posted, or at least for now, 1/30 to 1/60s. The lower the input lag is, even if you can't quantize it conciously, the most natural it will feel, the most accurate you will be, the fastest you will be, and finally, the more enjoyable will your experience be.
A little comparison, as i'm a sound engineer : As you may know, what you see dominates what you hear. Well, in the music production's world, when you hear the return of your instrument or voice in your headphones while recording it, it HAS to be under a 10ms delay, and you prefer it under 4ms, or if possible, in some systems, you can get it even closer to 0 (about 0,1ms). => The target is always to make it the lowest possible so the feeling or the feedback becomes more natural. So OK, you could record a guitar or drum part while hearing yourself 20ms late, you would just be 20ms less accurate, which is a lot and slightly audible.
The actual input lag on the Note II and SIII
First of all, how can you see this input lag yourself ?
=> See video in introduction !
You can also
Go to System Settings, Developer Options, and tick "Show touches" (show visual feedback for touches).
=> It will show a dot representing the position of your finger, as the phone senses it.
Now if you make a slow move, the dot will stay under your finger, but if you move faster (for example try to make circles), you will notice that the dot follows actualy follows your finger.
Also see video here http://gigaom.com/2012/01/19/video-android-touch-lag-and-a-possible-solution/
This is what i've tested myself :
- Galaxy S1
- Galaxy S2
- Galaxy S3
- Galaxy Note 2
- Iphone 5
What i can say is the S1 and S2 have about the same input lag, and the S3 and Note 2 have the same at least twice bigger input lag.
Yeah, that's right : the new gen, supposed to be an upgrade, is for sure more powerful, is more expensive but has a lot more input lag. Quite frustrating isn't it ?
In the same time, the iphone 5 is way faster, more like the SGS1 and 2, something around 50ms.
We estimate that the input lag between 100 and 170ms, depending on the situation, and including all sources of input lag (vsync, frames buffering, screen refresh rate, and capacitive detection)
This is 1/10s to 1/6s ! It's just unsuitable for gaming, and comfort.
What To fix & Possible ways to do so
Biggest input lag source : The Capacitive Detection
In the Input Lag thread, Chrissssssss made a test : He plugged a mouse to his phone, and made a reaction test. His result was about 80 to 100ms less while using the mouse than while using the touchscreen
=> We can conclude that the capacitive detection of the touchscreen touchscreen takes already at least 80ms.
KurianOfBorg just said :
I believe on the SGS2 and Note the OS actually uploads the touchscreen firmware to the Amtel controller. These blobs could be hacked in someway to reduced the number of samples (usually 4) per report.
Even Samsung cannot do it. In some other thread the Samsung engineers told someone that even they simply receive just the firmware blobs for the touchscreen from Amtel. The only thing that has been achieved so far on the touchscreen device is changing the Vitalij value via sysfs on the SGS2. You can look through /sys/bus/i2c/devices/3-004a/ or /sys/devices/platform/s3c2440-i2c.3/i2c-3/3-004a/ if they exist on your device.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Maybe a way to tweak ?
We use to see this tweak in ROMs : Disable Scrolling cache. It seems to improve a bit the response time already, but not enough for a real time feeling.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2003062
Here is some work made on the I9003
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1587553
About myself / why would you trust me ?
I'm a drummer, gamer, and sound engineer student. As a gamer, i always tried to have low input lag input and display devices. I got a BenQ XL2420T and Steelseries Sensei Mice : Theorical input lag measured by several tests between 1 to 17ms (excluding refresh rate that is 8ms @120hz and with vsync OFF). So i'm used to input lag close to 0, and i know how a responsive device must feel. I've also measured several input lag delays of screen and mices, so i'm now able to estimate input lag between 1 ans 100ms quite accurately (never had to measure more so it's hard to guess how more it is, you just know if it's over 100ms or not).
As a drummer, and a sound engineer, i'm very sensitive to precision and i can notice any little thing that is not synced.
Finally, I don't know if it's fully fixable, or how much it can be improved, i hope it can get under 50ms by combining display tweak (disable vsync, frame buffering) and input tweak (tweaking the tacile driver so it is direct input, very low buffer, and high refresh rate).
I'll say thank you in advance to anyone trying to improve reponse time.
Please let me know if there's anything to correct in my main post.
See also
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2120867
http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1730089 (nice example of input lag denial from newbies)
Reserved space
Useess
Re: [Dev request] Fix touchscreen input lag
nabilsweet007 said:
Useess
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah posting other's work under your name and not giving them proper credits is useful.
Sent from my GT-N7100
nabilsweet007 said:
Useess
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
TROLL SPOTTED
And giving a stupid personal judgement without any explaination is very usefull ?
I don't see the point : How could any improvement be useless ? Especially if some of us find this issue very unpleasant, and if it's directly about what you feel (consciously or not) when you're using your smartphone...
The fact is as you can't even write correctly, i guess you can't even use your fingers and eyes properly to enjoy a latency free device.
I do notice this input lag more often on a stock based roms then aosp/cm10.1. Ive tried the "show touches" options on both the roms and noticed that the input lag on the aosp rom is significantly less than that present on the stock. As for, whether this is a feature or intended to improve visual quality, i dont know but i do hope its not. This is an issue that does bother me alot and the only reason why i keep going back to custom stock roms is due to the poor batterylife present on the cm10.1 roms, other than that i was quite happy with aosp/cm10.1.
Hopefully, more people will get aware of this issue, enough for Sammy/XDA Developers to try and tackle it. Good Thread:good:
Re: [Dev request] Fix touchscreen input lag
I like your investigation but I think it is hardware issue. As MS engineer says "in the next decade".
Sent from my GT-N7100 using xda premium
bushako said:
Hopefully, more people will get aware of this issue, enough for Sammy/XDA Developers to try and tackle it. Good Thread:good:
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks, nice to show how this is bothering you too :highfive:
And yes, even if we don't find a solution, at least poeple will be more aware of this global issue and the lack of efforts from Samsung about it. I'm sad to say that, but Apple is the only one that seems to take care of that, with a really lower input lag. I tried one more iphone 5 this morning, it must be around 50ms input lag, still not perfect, but much better already.
mariosraptor said:
I like your investigation but I think it is hardware issue. As MS engineer says "in the next decade".
Sent from my GT-N7100 using xda premium
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thank you too.
As the SGS2 and even the SGS1 has lower input lag, this just makes no sense, it's supposed to get down and it's getting up ?
There is almost always a hardware part and a software part in input lag. I know the touchscreen implies at least 80ms, but in those, how much are software due to buffers, or error corrections, or whatever it is ? I hope we can at least get rid of a big part of the software one, and i hope it's the biggest one... :angel: If the hardware is 80% of it, then i'll just wait for any other nice android phone without this bad spec, and change the Note 2, but at least, poeple will know about it, and stop thinking that this latency is a smoothing and is normal... This is latency, and it really sucks !
Smoothing would be a bad thing with touchscreens anyway (and i think it's a bad thing on any input device as well) as you should feel what you're doing, not something different, or your senses are just going mad, and it's the same for a delay. But yeah, just in case if anyone has a doubt : this is not a gentle smoothing, this is just a nasty input lag.
Edited the main topic with a comparison to music production's world.
Re: [Dev request] Fix touchscreen input lag
http://www.overclock.net/t/1351079/guru3d-galaxy-s-iv-confirms-exynos-5-octa-cpu/140
http://gamesfromwithin.com/lag-the-bane-of-touch-screens
Found this seems good.
This is only one page.
But as I said hardwre issue more than software. Yes optimizing software to 110% seems reasonable but because not to many seems bothered by this, then no jardware manufacturer will try to make hardware to have lower input latency.
If we press them and this becomes a common issue among android (and other touch devices users) then some light might show up at the end of the tunnel.
Anyway, good luck and I hope that some more knowledgeable then me responses.
Cheers
Sent from my GT-N7100 using xda premium
Yes, we do understand that all touchscreens have huge input lag... the thing is, the note ii's input lag is way higher than older gen devices.
For example Subway surfers is way more responsive on my Optimus 3D than on the Note II. If you have an older phone to compare, you can easylly see the difference. I dont care much about input lag, smoothing or whatever in UI, browsers and stuff like that. but in games, its very noticible and very annoying. It almost makes me want to throw my phone against a wall.
I prefer tearing, thats why i have vsync off and minimal frame prerendering.... on my PC almost all the time.
mariosraptor said:
http://www.overclock.net/t/1351079/guru3d-galaxy-s-iv-confirms-exynos-5-octa-cpu/140
http://gamesfromwithin.com/lag-the-bane-of-touch-screens
Found this seems good.
This is only one page.
But as I said hardwre issue more than software. Yes optimizing software to 110% seems reasonable but because not to many seems bothered by this, then no jardware manufacturer will try to make hardware to have lower input latency.
If we press them and this becomes a common issue among android (and other touch devices users) then some light might show up at the end of the tunnel.
Anyway, good luck and I hope that some more knowledgeable then me responses.
Cheers
Sent from my GT-N7100 using xda premium
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Looks nice, thanks, i'll read it entierely when i got more time, for now i really need to sleep and have a big day waiting for me tomorrow.
From what i've already read, i just can say that my hope is a tweak in the touchscreen driver... There must have a way to override stupid values.
Kiwito22 said:
Yes, we do understand that all touchscreens have huge input lag... the thing is, the note ii's input lag is way higher than older gen devices.
For example Subway surfers is way more responsive on my Optimus 3D than on the Note II. If you have an older phone to compare, you can easylly see the difference. I dont care much about input lag, smoothing or whatever in UI, browsers and stuff like that. but in games, its very noticible and very annoying. It almost makes me want to throw my phone against a wall.
I prefer tearing, thats why i have vsync off and minimal frame prerendering.... on my PC almost all the time.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
OMG, i thought it was a quote from me, i've written the exact same idea somewhere on the web ! Totally agree, about everything.
Good Thread:good:
I like your investigation and i dont think the hardware is the issue here at all look at the older sgs2 and iphone both of them have lower input lag
Great thread!!
This is the thing I hate the most about my Android phones (I had all the flagships - GS1, GS2, GN1, GS3 and now GN2).
My iPhone 4s and iPad 3 have significantly lower input lag (and much better/smoother scrolling, but that's another issue), but they also do have completely different hardware than the Galaxy line.
The thing is, that on CM Roms I also get lower input lags, so this must be fixable or at least significantly improved via software...
Re: [Dev request] Fix touchscreen input lag
Since these Gnote II uses a Wacom touchscreen, could there be a possibility that the screen is trying to detect the spen momentarily?
AFAIK Wacom is completely off if you have pen power save enabled and pen is stored inside Note2.
A goooooood notice .....
Re: [Dev request] Fix touchscreen input lag
xartic12 said:
Since these Gnote II uses a Wacom touchscreen, could there be a possibility that the screen is trying to detect the spen momentarily?
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But the way the s-pen is detected for touches etc is completely different to the way you touching the screen with your finger is. That's why air view works, and you can hold your s-pen above the screen, use something to push the nib in, and the phone will register q touch without even touching the screen, so I highly doubt that's the cause of any input lag.
Sent from my GT-N7100 using xda premium
Did anybody try and compare whether there is any difference regarding the input lag on the touch screen with your finger and the wacom digitizer with the stylus?
The only solution I could think of is reverse engineering of the touchscreen driver and that is such an ungrateful huge work for such a small interested userbase that I'd say it is not going to happen. Unless there is a developer with immense skill and way too much(!) time around
I've just watched the S4 presentation > in the intro video > Exact same input lag. Then i wateched "hands on SGS4" videos > same input lag.
What a waste, I hate them.
mariosraptor said:
http://www.overclock.net/t/1351079/guru3d-galaxy-s-iv-confirms-exynos-5-octa-cpu/140
http://gamesfromwithin.com/lag-the-bane-of-touch-screens
Found this seems good.
This is only one page.
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=> I read it, it's interesting but gaming lag of a console isn't the same.
Anyway, that's not normal that input lag increased... Maybe touchscreens got more expensive, but physical digital controllers got cheaper.
I think software is where the problem lies. I tried an iphone 4 or 4s, couldn't tell which, and it was way more responsive, and the technology is the same as in Android phones. It can't be that big a hardware issue because it would be too easy to solve, just replacing a component, and in a race to sell millions of phones surely Apple couldn't be the only company that afforts an extra dollar or so per unit to purchase a more expensive, but better component. Plus we've all seen articles and teardowns showing that Apple uses plenty of regular components that are found in other phones as well, so there's definitely no magic there. Also, the trackpads in laptops seem to be based on capacitive technology as well, yet the input lag is a lot smaller than it is on the Note 2.
My guess is that there is noise filtering, to eliminate false touches, as well as smoothing and approximation, and the programmers are also generous with the input lag to ensure a smooth approximation. The smoothing, more specifically, is what must be the most lag-inducing feature. It's most obvious when we draw something quickly on the Note 2 with a finger (and even with the pen): small detail gets lost, but all the curves are smooth, and that's because the sampling rate for the finger position is low, and it interpolates points between the sampled positions to ensure a smooth animation. Since it can't approximate all the points between two sampled positions until you actually reach the second position, and it must also run the animation through all these approximated points at the same speed that you moved your finger, that means that a list doesn't start scrolling until the screen has captured at least 2 samples of finger movement, so the animation will always be at least 1 sample behind your finger's actual movement. How many samples is unknown, but the sampling rate can be found out, and together with an accurate measurement of the lag it would be possible to find out how many touch samples it needs before it starts actually performing an animation.
So the obvious solution would be to increase the touch sampling rate, so that animations start faster, and tone down the smoothing because it would be less useful and to compensate for the computing power used by the increased sampling rate (it's not enough to prevent the power usage from rising, that's my guess, and maybe that's why iphones don't last as much as droids with comparable specs in the battery department).
For what it's worth, I'm an amateur sound engineer, bass player with an ear and a passion for drums, so I really know how you feel about input lag OP!
Hi, I am wondering if anyone has any hands-on experience with the Note 10.1 2014 edition and can comment on whether there are significant improvements in the accuracy of the Spen with the 2014 edition in comparison with the original Note 10.1.
I'm not referring to extra features, but rather improved accuracy in writing and drawing. I also and emphasizing that whoever wants to comment on this to please have actual hands-on experience with both tablets. I am trying to make a decision on whether to upgrade, and the only thing so far that would make me want to upgrade is if there is some real improvement in pen accuracy.
Thank you
gnoteuser2013 said:
Hi, I am wondering if anyone has any hands-on experience with the Note 10.1 2014 edition and can comment on whether there are significant improvements in the accuracy of the Spen with the 2014 edition in comparison with the original Note 10.1.
I'm not referring to extra features, but rather improved accuracy in writing and drawing. I also and emphasizing that whoever wants to comment on this to please have actual hands-on experience with both tablets. I am trying to make a decision on whether to upgrade, and the only thing so far that would make me want to upgrade is if there is some real improvement in pen accuracy.
Thank you
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Discriibe what you mean by accuracy as it draws whar I draw and types what I write.
shaun298 said:
Discriibe what you mean by accuracy as it draws whar I draw and types what I write.
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Actually, I'm also interested in the OP question. I find that that the tip is displaced from where it is registered and that this gets worse the nearer the edges you get. It's also insensitive to the tilt of the pen so how accurate the tip gets depends very much on how you hold the pen and what angle you hold the tablet. At the right angle it's pretty good but if I put the tablet flat on a table and try to take notes it gets very inaccurate.
If you're just making continuous smooth curves it's okay as it tracks the movements of the stylus quite accurately. The issue is if you need to go back over what you've written/drawn because where you place the tip won't match where the next stroke appears.
I fear many of these problems are limitations of Wacom's technology. The issue of inaccuracy near edges/corners appears to be a common complaint among a number of devices that use Wacom digitizers and because it's the base of the pen not the tip that's recognized and there's no active tracking of stylus tilt the angle issue is inevitable unless you're holding the stylus at 90 degrees at all times.
That being said, I played with some Windows 8 based machines on the weekend to compare the stylus. The Surface Pro uses Wacom, I believe, and had some of the same issues, although it seemed to be somewhat more accurate over a larger part of the screen only got bad at the very edges.
Another big advantage of Windows 8 is it has options for left and right handed use and a recalibration option built into the driver. Both features should improve accuracy somewhat based on how you hold the stylus. Driver improvements could significantly improve the experience on the Note 10.1 if Samsung were to implement them.
I also tried a Sony Duo 13 laptop which uses the N-trig digitizer. The pen has to have a battery so it's bigger and heavier, although I don't mind that. I also found it triggered strokes when it was hovering (not touching) sometimes and sometimes failed to trigger when touching. I don't know if this is a general problem or maybe the battery was low or something. I will say, though, that the positional accuracy of the stylus when it worked was significantly better than the Wacom digitizers I've tried. So much so that I'm seriously considering that machine as a replacement for my laptop. But it's more the size/weight of an ultrabook than a tablet. Too bad Sony didn't include the N-trig in it's android tablet which otherwise looks pretty nice.
the issues described by tmagritte above include what I am referring to.
I just picked up the 30GB wifi version last night and can confirm that problems still remain. I went back to Best Buy today and both their demos are similarly inaccurate. It is pretty good until you are within 1 cm of the edge of the display. The easiest way to observe the issue is to use a drivers license or similar as a straight edge and draw horizontal and diagonal lines in the S Note application with the grid paper background while maintaining a constant pen angle. I'm shocked that Samsung still hasn't released a calibration app for the Note series.
Hello.
My wife just bought this tablet, the 2014 10.1, and she is very distraught over the inaccuracy of the s-pen in certain areas of the screen, especially in the middle of the screen, when she draws a straight line through the middle of the screen it bows around 2 center point in the screen, making underline text that you've written almost impossible on those parts of the screen. Has anyone else noticed this particular inaccuracy or do you think this tablet is defective?
We have another 3 weeks before opening a case on ebay, we bought it refurbished, sealed in manufacture box.
EDIT: I just found the cause after some tinkering of my own.. The Magnet in the flip cover case she was using was distorting the s-pens accuracy, removed the case, works just fine now. Be advised, this happens, apparently.