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I can't believe I'm saying this, but the iPhone is amazing (Long post)

I know you guys probably heard this a thousand times (and a forum search shows this) and what I'm about to say is probably very cliche, but the iPhone is a pretty amazing device.
Typically, I am a WM man (I currently own an HTC Touch Pro), and I've owned WM phones/devices for a long time now. I tried other OSes (Symbian, Palm OS), but ultimately, I prefer WM. When the iPhone first appeared, I disregarded it almost entirely because it's made by Apple. As someone familiar with Apple, I just didn't like them very much (largely due to their design philosophy).
Things didn't look like they were about to change. In fact, the next phones I was seriously looking at was the Toshiba TG01, Samsung Omnia HD i9810, and Samsung Omnia Pro B7610. Two of these are Windows Mobile and one is Symbian (which I was less likely to get anyway). The only major difference is that they aren't HTC (I want to move away from HTC because I exceedingly dislike Qualcomm).
However, something special happened yesterday: My friend invited me to lunch and he showed me his new iPhone 3GS. He allowed me to play with it.
In one word: Incredible!
As my intuition knew, I ended up not liking the design of the OS (I still prefer WM's design), but I couldn't really deny how well made the iPhone really is. More than anything else, I really have to compliment how extremely optimized it really is. Opening any software, going to the home screen, playing movies/music, and doing just about anything really was incredibly smooth. The entire time I was with my friend, I just gushed and gushed about this one aspect. The reason why is because it really is incredible how fast everything was.
The truth is that when compared side to side with my Touch Pro, the speed is really the same. However, a few things to note. First, everyone know how the iPhone seems to use "gradual transitions"? To elaborate, whenever you do anything, such as opening software or rotation, it is done in real time, and you can see the changes with your eyes. This is as opposed to WM where it is done immediately (for example, rotating with my TP results in an immediate change as opposed to you seeing the screen rotate on the iPhone).
This seems like a minor thing, but it has a large effect on perception. Notably, it makes you perceive it as being faster. When I counted down the seconds on the iPhone and WM, I noticed that opening programs and rotation are really done at the same speed, but the iPhone's gradual transition effects makes you perceive it as being faster, which is actually pretty nice.
Second thing and a very important point: My TP uses a custom ROM, which is why its speed was on par with that of the iPhone. If it had been using the stock ROM, I am positive that the iPhone would have crushed it in speed.
This seems like a moot point because I *can* use custom ROMs, but note that this forum and all of its custom ROMs are largely exclusive to HTC phones (with the sole exception of the Xperia...which was made by HTC anyway). What happens if I decide to use another WM phone (for example, the Samsung B7610)? Then I would have no choice but to remain with the stock ROM or at least hope someone would develop the stray ROM for the Samsung devices (such as the i900 on XDA).
At this point, I'm also willing to blame the speed issue on hardware. After all, the iPhone is about 72MHZ faster than my phone, and it also also has a dedicated graphics chip. On the other hand, I also have to take into consideration that it takes a custom, optimized ROM for my device to keep up with the stock ROM on a series of device which is notorious for being outdated (anyone remember the iPhone 2G)?
If anyone is wondering, am I thinking about switching to the dark side? Unfortunately, no. While the huge number of apps and the great speed is tantalizing, I am still the guy who frequently spends 4+ hours changing the ROMs on his phones (and tweaking it afterwards). I'm also the guy who frequently goes into the settings menu because he nitpicks about how each little thing on his phone works.
Can I switch to something that won't allow me that much customization? Speaking as someone who's about to change the ROM on his phone again, the answer appears to be a pretty clear 'no' as this point.
On, the other hand, while playing with the iPhone, I did find myself wishing that the Windows Mobile experience was as smooth, and great as with the iPhone, especially on stock ROMs. I also did find myself wondering what Windows Mobile 7 will be like (I can't wonder with WM6.5 because I'm using it now). But of course, what do people saying about wishing too much? It's useless.
Am I going mad?

I'd take an iphone over any WM device any day of the week, but I absolutely refuse to pay $70+ a month just to use it.

Exactly how many apps are there for windows mobile?
Until recently I assumed that WinMo>Symbian>Iphone.
Apparently that's wrong.

I was going to buy one with all the other sheep but decided to buy an ipod touch. Works great, but the first time I put it in my pocket and crouched down a bit later it nealy killed it!
Screen went a nice mix of colours and it totally stopped working. Quite a few plug ins to the computer and it came back to life.
There just to fragile and to big(iphone is thicker than the touch also), good girls phone or if you carry a handbag.
Glade I got the Jade not a problem so far.

thedigitel said:
I'd take an iphone over any WM device any day of the week, but I absolutely refuse to pay $70+ a month just to use it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Is that the AT&T contract you have to sign up for to get an iPhone? If that's the case, why not just buy the iPhone unlocked? It's expensive, but it cost about as much as any HTC phone I've seen.
charge1313 said:
Exactly how many apps are there for windows mobile?
Until recently I assumed that WinMo>Symbian>Iphone.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
As of right now, the iPhone has roughly 50K-60K of apps while the last article detailing how many apps Windows Mobile seems to have stopped at 20K. Futhermore, the iPhone famously beaten Windows Mobile in reaching 25K apps, and I find it highly unlikely that Windows Mobile caught up.
Even from an outside perspective, though, it seems to me that the iPhone has an impressive number of apps, including a plethora of ones that Windows Mobile never seems to get (or is even capable of getting).
stu-k said:
I was going to buy one with all the other sheep but decided to buy an ipod touch. Works great, but the first time I put it in my pocket and crouched down a bit later it nealy killed it!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, the iPod Touch would make sense, but I would rather not have to carry two devices around. It seems better to me to have an all-in-one device in this case and, if nothing else, it would allow me to utilize the numerous phone-related apps in the app store.

I entirely agree.
My wife has a Gen 1 iphone, and I recently updated it to version 3 and unlocked and jailbreaked.
In the old days, WM had thousands of apps as one of its killer features.
I recently spent a few evenings installing apps on the wife's phone, and I was blown away. Not necessarily by the quality, but by the experience.
Everything is smooth, everything works, the user experience is "unchallenging".
I love tweaking, I love coding, I love spending MONTHS dissecting the WinMob OS to implement a tiny hack. But you know what? Why bother?!
I can't see myself giving up on WinMob - it's got momentum, and I can't be bothered to learn Objective C. I'm barely coping with C++ as it is.
But, to paraphrase Gauntlet, "WinMob [may be] about to die".
In defence of WinMob:
It's p*sses me off something crazy that when Gizmondo et all were reviewing the Palm Pre, multi tasking was one of the killer features. WinMob has had it FOREVER.
It's a good OS, it multitasks, it generally works, it can make calls and emails and whatnot.
But - the user experience is OLD.
And I think one of the most fundamental flaws is also one of the biggest strengths - WinMob runs on a hundred kinds of hardware. But the problem:
WinMob runs on a hundred kinds of hardware.
Some of those have graphic accelerators, some don't.
Some have dpads, some don't.
Some have 600mhz CPUs, some don't.
The iphone is a single homogeneous ecosystem.
Coders know they can anti-alias without trying to code to the lowest common denominator 200mhz phone with 16mb of ram. They know exactly what they're gonna get with an iphone. And that fact means they know the limitations, and how to pitch what they've got at the right performance considerations. They know what they're working on. The Human Interface spec is incredible, and incredibly helpful. Users expect an experience, naturally, because it feels natural. Apple encourages that, and coders have to honour it.
I think most of the iphone experience can and should be emulated on WinMob.
I'm not just talking about cloning Springboard and everything else. Yes, we can emulate this and that - our coders on XDA devs are incredible, and could do every bit of it.
But we need more: the experience of just being able to use the phone and expect it to work needs to be emulated.
I don't think the iphone is necessarily a better piece of hardware: I prefer my Touch HD. But clearly the user experience, the user interface paradigm, the reward of just being able to use the thing easily needs to be implemented - from the ground up.
I don't think this is going to happen on WinMob; I think the strength/limitations of a wide open platform means this probably can't happen. I think that like Win CE before it, WinMob will end up being relegated to a certain environment that has low expectations (eg Enterprise markets).
But if "Windows" devices are going to survive, I think the change has to happen at a much higher level. I can only hope that Pink or whatever is on the horizon for WinMob 7 is an integrated piece of hardware and user experience designed from the ground up to feel like it's the 21st century... using WinMob out of pity is going to get old, very very soon.
V

8525Smart said:
Well, the iPod Touch would make sense, but I would rather not have to carry two devices around. It seems better to me to have an all-in-one device in this case and, if nothing else, it would allow me to utilize the numerous phone-related apps in the app store.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Have to agree, I hate carry around two devices. Hence no longer use Ipod touch on the go, just leave it at home in docking station, which its good for.
Use the Jade for music and a phone which fits on my pocket.
I find the istore apps mostly gimmicks anyways, which you pay for and never use.
A smaller tougher Iphone would be good

vijay555 said:
I entirely agree.
In defence of WinMob:
It's p*sses me off something crazy that when Gizmondo et all were reviewing the Palm Pre, multi tasking was one of the killer features. WinMob has had it FOREVER.
It's a good OS, it multitasks, it generally works, it can make calls and emails and whatnot.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Oh my God, yes, YES!
I can't count the number of times I had to defend WinMo against people who obviously never used it. The number of ridiculously comments I seen was ludicrous and often times seem as if the people saying it were just parroting common criticisms as opposed to their actual experience.
One guy I saw even suggested that receiving text/emails and switching between apps was impossible.
On the other hand, I agree with the rest of your post too (as is the subject of my topic). I think you really hit the nail on the head: Windows Mobile's biggest strength, its availability on multiple phones, is also its biggest weakness.
As an owner of a Fuze, an HTC phone with an accelerometer, the lack of accelero-meter WinMo apps makes it very apparent.
I do agree with you that Microsoft needs to do something, at the very least, about the user experience, but I really don't see how it can be done. The iPhone is able to achieve this because it is a software available on one hardware designed by Apple themselves. In order for Microsoft to achieve the same quality of apps or user experience, they would have to design Windows Mobile to take advantage of a particular hardware specification.
As of currently, the best Microsoft can probably achieve is to design Windows Mobile with the best optimization they can while maintaining good compatibility and appearance with a wide number of hardware.
stu-k said:
HI find the istore apps mostly gimmicks anyways, which you pay for and never use.
A smaller tougher Iphone would be good
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That may be true, but to be fair, the Windows Mobile landscape isn't exactly clear of 'gimmicky' apps either. Some of them even inspired by iPhone equivalents.
HDWobble, anyone?

The 3GS is faster not because of the clock speed, but because the A8 Cortex beats the pants out of the (very long in the tooth) ARM11 in the TP (and TP2, why HTC, why?!!!).
http://www.anandtech.com/gadgets/showdoc.aspx?i=3595&p=4

This is going to see as an odd first post but i am a jailbroken and unlocked iphone user. I have been tinkering with the iphone the way you guys tinker with winmo for 2 years now. To the original poster, if you are such a tinkerer and want to tinker with something new a jailbroken iphone is for you.
Some of THE BEST apps for the iphone are not in the apple app store because apple would never allow it.
I myself am starting to look at the TP2 and winmo phones because i was REALLLLLLLLLLLLY looking forward to the Nokia N97 and that thing just let me down a ton. I have a HTC Hero coming to play with for a while but besides the widgets i don't see a whole lot different between the new TF3D 2 on the TP2 or the TD2 and the Hero.
There are tons of useful 3rd party jailbroken apps and hacks that you can do that make the iphone even THAT much more useable. For instance the 3rd party text messaging applications are w/o question better than the stock apple version however because how they are designed they would never be approved for the app store. Also, there is a hack app called "backgrounder" which allows me to run apps in the background and multi task.

jim_0068 said:
This is going to see as an odd first post but i am a jailbroken and unlocked iphone user. I have been tinkering with the iphone the way you guys tinker with winmo for 2 years now. To the original poster, if you are such a tinkerer and want to tinker with something new a jailbroken iphone is for you.
Some of THE BEST apps for the iphone are not in the apple app store because apple would never allow it.
I myself am starting to look at the TP2 and winmo phones because i was REALLLLLLLLLLLLY looking forward to the Nokia N97 and that thing just let me down a ton. I have a HTC Hero coming to play with for a while but besides the widgets i don't see a whole lot different between the new TF3D 2 on the TP2 or the TD2 and the Hero.
There are tons of useful 3rd party jailbroken apps and hacks that you can do that make the iphone even THAT much more useable. For instance the 3rd party text messaging applications are w/o question better than the stock apple version however because how they are designed they would never be approved for the app store. Also, there is a hack app called "backgrounder" which allows me to run apps in the background and multi task.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Holy crap are you talking about the iPhone? Is the backgrounder for the iPhone? Can I have more information on how this works?
Here is a more important question... will the backgrounder app allow 3rd party alarm applications to finally work on the iPhone?
Will the backgrounder also allow automatic profile scheduling?

poetryrocksalot said:
Holy crap are you talking about the iPhone? Is the backgrounder for the iPhone? Can I have more information on how this works?
Here is a more important question... will the backgrounder app allow 3rd party alarm applications to finally work on the iPhone?
Will the backgrounder also allow automatic profile scheduling?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
yes. but Backgrounder is not compatible with the new 3.0 OS.
and on the 3G you do not exactly have lots of Ram to spare though. only ~34MB after a reset. and applications are not exactly light weight.
i believe profile scheduling is available through other means. but have not really looked into it. Performance really takes a nose dive when you start asking it to do extra stuff due to the lack of Ram.

crazy talk said:
yes. but Backgrounder is not compatible with the new 3.0 OS.
and on the 3G you do not exactly have lots of Ram to spare though. only ~34MB after a reset. and applications are not exactly light weight.
i believe profile scheduling is available through other means. but have not really looked into it. Performance really takes a nose dive when you start asking it to do extra stuff due to the lack of Ram.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Oh that's a shame... this app is useless then. I heard that Apple is considering the idea of having full support for background applications.
The problem is that:
1) Apple knows that not many people care about "background" applications.
2) Consumer common sense is distorted in that they don't understand the purpose of multi-task. They believe that multi-task is already on the iPhone because obviously, you can "exit the application into another application". This isn't the point, a true multitasking system requires A) background applications B) automation of background functions and C) the ability to switch tasks in the foreground of an application.
3) Apple knows that adding background applications will result in people complaining of slowness because 1) Alot of people still don't know what RAM is, not even my sister who is a 4+ year college student working on her masters and 2) Alot of people do not know how to manage a platform involving background applications and 3) average consumers would rather sacrifice functionality for ease-of-use.
I believe the emphasis of this multi-tasking is not a multi-tasking complaint. Idiots are prone to think that the iPhone already has multi-tasking; I've seem them argue about it. We need to add a mentality to people in which they learn that it isn't about multi-tasking, it's about background applications and how we need applications to function in the background.

Well the 3GS has double the ram and faster processor, hopefully they (third-parties) can find a way to make actual multi-tasking more plausible.

new beast in town
the android os is really taking shape and will soon be king. with so many different devices coming aboard this thing will be huge. the g1 now is awesome with just a little tweaking and those who don't want to tweak there are 2 more ota coming in the next 5 months.

nonzenze said:
The 3GS is faster not because of the clock speed, but because the A8 Cortex beats the pants out of the (very long in the tooth) ARM11 in the TP (and TP2, why HTC, why?!!!).
http://www.anandtech.com/gadgets/showdoc.aspx?i=3595&p=4
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hmm, very informative read, Thank you,
So the 3GS apparently has a superior CPU in more ways than one, which I'm not really surprised about. I did mentioned that I did not like HTC's choice of CPUs...which they're still using in their newest devices. Many other devices are already using the Cortex A8, so if it is the case that HTC is losing out due to the CPU, then that doesn't bode well for their future phones.
jim_0068 said:
To the original poster, if you are such a tinkerer and want to tinker with something new a jailbroken iphone is for you.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes, everything you said is true. A jailbroken iPhone is a very nice thing and probably does well for tinkerers. In fact, the 3GS that my friend let me used was jailbroken too.
However, truthfully, installing apps that lets me do new things wasn't what I was really referring to before. Instead, I was largely referring to the changing of ROMs/OS. I believe the iPhone has made some progress running Linux, but nothing else as far as I can see. WM Phone has so many different ROMs available and progress has been made on running Linux (including Android) too. This allows for much more customization, in my opinion as you get the benefit of software-based customization combined with ROM/OS-based.
Besides, it's pretty fun to be running Windows Mobile 6.5 while everyone else is still using Windows Mobile 6.1.

Guys, rumours are the Pink/Zune Phone will be a Win 7 derived device based on hardware designed by Microsoft.
If they pull that off, as they say, "I'd buy that for a dollar".
V

My opinion is that in order to be a solid competitor, Microsoft needs to limit the hardware choices for their platform. HTC does a great job at making devices for Windows Mobile. Microsoft needs to pair up with them to make their own phone. With the new Zune HD coming out featuring the nVidia Tegra chipset, it would make a wonderful platform to build the next generation WM phone from. The thing is, it should be the only phone featuring WM 7 Professsional. It will enable Microsoft to fine tune WM to use every bit of the phone's capabilities, leaving nothing to be desired. Much like they do with their PC OS's, there can be several versions of the main OS with steps in capabilities. Their Zune HD phone should be the candidate for WM7 Ultimate, which would feature smooth transitions and speed.
Edit: Just saw the post above mine. I need to read more!

vijay555 said:
Guys, rumours are the Pink/Zune Phone will be a Win 7 derived device based on hardware designed by Microsoft.
If they pull that off, as they say, "I'd buy that for a dollar".
V
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Rumors are a bit too little to get excited, in my opinion. The possibility of a true iPhone competitor by Microsoft sounds amazing, but it's a bit underwhelming at this point.
We have no knowledge of the OS, no knowledge of the important specs (CPU, RAM, multimedia capabilities, etc) aside from Tegra, and the little specs that is publicly available kind of sucks. 3.3in screen with 480x272 res? Call me picky, but I would have hoped for 3.5-3.7in with at least 640x480.
Still, I have not followed the news of the Zune HD, and it does, indeed, look pretty amazing. The Os does at least. The Zune HD's OS appears to work amazingly well; It is incredibly fast and smooth.

8525Smart said:
Rumors are a bit too little to get excited, in my opinion. The possibility of a true iPhone competitor by Microsoft sounds amazing, but it's a bit underwhelming at this point.
We have no knowledge of the OS, no knowledge of the important specs (CPU, RAM, multimedia capabilities, etc) aside from Tegra, and the little specs that is publicly available kind of sucks. 3.3in screen with 480x272 res? Call me picky, but I would have hoped for 3.5-3.7in with at least 640x480.
Still, I have not followed the news of the Zune HD, and it does, indeed, look pretty amazing. The Os does at least. The Zune HD's OS appears to work amazingly well; It is incredibly fast and smooth.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I really think the only company that can actually create a truly direct competitor to Apple and iPhone is Microsoft...it's the name and not the product.....
Apple had a bad rep back then and now they are doing good.
It seems like Microsoft is tagged after Apple jumped the boat to success.
We'll just have to wait for Microsoft to adopt Apple's precedent.
With Microsoft directly creating their own phone and not just an OS, we might actually get a true iPhone killer. Though Microsoft may have to revamp the entire OS and create their own line of OS totally unrelated to Windows Mobile.

iPhone 4 vs. Captivate/Android -- What are the differences?

I have an original iPhone 2G that I want to replace. I've been waiting for the new iPhone 4 to come out, and I was planning on buying one -- but the death-grip problem got me to do some research, which is how I found out about the Captivate.
Now I'm torn on which one to get. Obviously I'm very accustomed to the iPhone, but I've never used Android. So...
1. What are the major differences between iOS and Android?
2. What might I like better about Android? What might I not like about Andriod? And what might I like better about iOS?
3. What might I like better about the Captivate phone? What might I prefer about the iPhone 4 phone?
4. I've read a lot of comments about "Lag" on the Captivate, which would really bug me. Is it true?
Etc, etc...
I think you get the point of the thread.
Thanks in advance.

The hardware differences are obvious. As far as lag, yes, there's some issue's but there's work arounds.
The biggest difference, the IPhone is a great phone, right out of the box without messing with anything. But your stuck with what you got. Apps are restricted, web is restricted, your pretty much at the mercy of att and apple.
Android, requires more out of the box tinkering, but you have endless possibilities. You can customize your phone the way you want it.

You have to realize that the iPhone and ios are completely locked down. You are destined to use the apps that apple ok's you have no other hardware choices and are locked into iTunes and all things apple.
Android is a complete 180 it allows for so much customization that it is simply mind boggleing. If you are unhappy with a certain apps or feature sets you can simply build your own or find something else.
With this.freedom comes responsibility. You need to manage your Apps and memory usage. You have to babysit a bit in order to get the most out of the device.
Being able to play most movie files and tons of audio file types is very freeing
Also the screen is insanely gorgeous.
It really comes down to two things in the end.
Do you have tons of Apps already for ios that you are not willing to part with?
Do you like geeking out a bit in order to build your dream device?
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using XDA App

rob989_69 said:
As far as lag, yes, there's some issue's but there's work arounds.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Got a link to these workarounds? This one's a biggee for me.
rob989_69 said:
The biggest difference, the IPhone is a great phone, right out of the box without messing with anything. But your stuck with what you got. Apps are restricted, web is restricted, your pretty much at the mercy of att and apple.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Does this mean that if we're happy with the iPhone out of the box we're better off with iPhone 4 since there's no need to mess with anything?
rob989_69 said:
You can customize your phone the way you want it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
How so? Can you give some examples? I only know what the iPhone gives us out of the box, so I have no way to know what I might be missing.
Thanks.

Sounds Good said:
Got a link to these workarounds? This one's a biggee for me.
Does this mean that if we're happy with the iPhone out of the box we're better off with iPhone 4 since there's no need to mess with anything?
How so? Can you give some examples? I only know what the iPhone gives us out of the box, so I have no way to know what I might be missing.
Thanks.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Android uses widgets, which is something iOS lacks. You have the freedom to add and remove more than just app icons to your homescreen, such as weather indicators, contact rolodex, clocks, RSS feeds, facebook updates, everything. you can literally have every piece of pertinent info such as your todo list, email, weather, time, and alrams, all available on a single screen, without having to inside individual apps.
Another nifty feature of android are the live wallpapers. These animated, and often interactive, backgrounds adds a unique customization that lets people know your phone is unique.
the captivate is VERY usable right outside the box, unlike some other android phones. Despite what some people say, the Touchwiz UI (the UI that samsung has installed) is very fun to use, easy to customize, and is a natural transition for iphone users. The app dock at the bottom makes it feel slightly like an iphone, but includes the Android widgets to give you a nice feel of the phone.
On the downside, Samsung and AT&T install a lot of bloatware that slows down the phone. You will more than likely want to root the phone to be able to uninstall the AT&T Apps, the only duplicate the functionality that android has by default, and at a cost. for instance AT&T Navigate is a monthly charge app that is inferior to the free and default android navigate.

asrrin29 said:
On the downside, Samsung and AT&T install a lot of bloatware that slows down the phone. You will more than likely want to root the phone to be able to uninstall the AT&T Apps...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hmmm, this may be a problem. The sluggishness would drive me nuts, but if "root" is similar to Jailbraking, it's not my cup of tea. I know, I know... most of you have no problem with this... but I've never done it and I most likely never will. Which (apparently) leaves me with a sluggish phone. Not good.
I appreciate the feedback... it's the only way to truly learn.

Sounds Good said:
Hmmm, this may be a problem. The sluggishness would drive me nuts, but if "root" is similar to Jailbraking, it's not my cup of tea. I know, I know... most of you have no problem with this... but I've never done it and I most likely never will. Which (apparently) leaves me with a sluggish phone. Not good.
I appreciate the feedback... it's the only way to truly learn.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You can disable all of the apps without root, but they will still be in your menu taking up space. I notice it's the Samsung widgets that cause lag the most (but honestly, it's still snappy even with the bloat) once you disable them the thing flies.
And rooting is only superficially similar to jail breaking. all rooting does is install the superuser app that allows you to do things an administrator is allowed to do. If you don't want it on your phone you simply uninstall the superuser app and it's back the way it was. what would be more akin to jailbreaking would be to enable sideloading, a way to install apps without using the market. This requires editing the system database, which is harder to reverse. You can enable root without also enabling sideloading, they are two different processes.
If you use a PC, you can even use Droid Explorer to uninstall apps without rooting your phone.

asrrin29 said:
If you use a PC, you can even use Droid Explorer to uninstall apps without rooting your phone.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Dont you need to have root access to install busybox? My droid explorer wouldnt work until I downloaded and installed an updated busybox.
Rooting my phone was the first thing I did as soon as I got home, so I'm not sure if you need to have root access to install busybox or not.

derek4484 said:
Dont you need to have root access to install busybox? My droid explorer wouldnt work until I downloaded and installed an updated busybox.
Rooting my phone was the first thing I did as soon as I got home, so I'm not sure if you need to have root access to install busybox or not.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not sure, I rooted immediately as well, I just read about the explorer here on the forums.

Wtf is this lag you all talk about?? install laucher pro and that fixes the laggy touchwiz UI ****tiness...other than that android runs like butter on this device its unreal, i had an acer liquid and trust me android is not the same on a galaxy S its just unreal how smooth it is.

Sounds Good said:
Hmmm, this may be a problem. The sluggishness would drive me nuts, but if "root" is similar to Jailbraking, it's not my cup of tea. I know, I know... most of you have no problem with this... but I've never done it and I most likely never will. Which (apparently) leaves me with a sluggish phone. Not good.
I appreciate the feedback... it's the only way to truly learn.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I suspect that people who have issues with sluggishness just got too enthusiastic about newly acquired freedom I solved this issue (that is if I even had it in a first place) by switching from Live Wallpaper to a regular one. No other tricks. I use TouchWiz (I like it). Here is a video comparing iPhone 4 and Captivate side by side. It uses stock Captivate and it's not any more sluggish than iPhone 4. In fact, it's faster in many tests.

rafyvitto said:
Wtf is this lag you all talk about?? install laucher pro and that fixes the laggy touchwiz UI ****tiness...other than that android runs like butter on this device its unreal, i had an acer liquid and trust me android is not the same on a galaxy S its just unreal how smooth it is.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's not touchwiz that is laggy. I love touchwiz and it's extremely responsive. Rather, it's the Samsung widgets that clutter 3 homscreens that are very processor intensive. Once you place them in the trash and replace them with other apps from the market the experience is far better.

lilo777 said:
Here is a video comparing iPhone 4 and Captivate side by side. It uses stock Captivate and it's not any more sluggish than iPhone 4. In fact, it's faster in many tests.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Interesting. Thanks for the link.

I'm coming from an iPhone (from what it sounds, i'm a more power user than you but I can offer insight)
the captivate has the advantage of having in house chip manufacturing, now while I have rooted and sideloaded and removed att bloat...before I did that all I did was remove the daily briefing widget (pretty useless imo) and I never experienced any slow down. I was used to waiting a bit with the 3gs so I was pretty happy with the experience.
If you're concerned about lag, don't. there really isn't any. it's perceived from when you hear you have a 1ghz phone that is as good as jesus. Everything even the fastest home computers have the occasional lag.
as for rooting, it really just allows you to have some more control over your phone. It's a stepping stone yes, kind of like a gateway drug into android tweaking. But if you can control yourself it'll allow you to simply remove the ATT apps that suck and use a nice and zippy touchwiz (which I actually really like) and because TW is very iphoneish, you should have a good time navigating.
but man lemme tell you, the browser is much better than iPhone. Flash is pretty awesome. The Screen is much much much! better than the 4's and it is bigger which I personally like. I think it hits the sweet spot between big and medium (I wanted a streak but it took way to long to come out, and i'm glad i didn't bite on an import).
The only two apps which are better on iPhone are facebook and MLB at Bat (at bat because of mlb.tv) otherwise the selection is nice on android, and the apps are very diverse.
I think you'd like it, but then again this is just my opinion. I'm more of the tinkerer anyways and I HAD to jailbreak my iPhone to enjoy it.
the captivate has some neat little tweaks that'll keep surprising you (I find new things every day)
choice is yours hope i could help

V DidDy 210 said:
I'm coming from an iPhone (from what it sounds, i'm a more power user than you but I can offer insight)
the captivate has the advantage of having in house chip manufacturing, now while I have rooted and sideloaded and removed att bloat...before I did that all I did was remove the daily briefing widget (pretty useless imo) and I never experienced any slow down. I was used to waiting a bit with the 3gs so I was pretty happy with the experience.
If you're concerned about lag, don't. there really isn't any. it's perceived from when you hear you have a 1ghz phone that is as good as jesus. Everything even the fastest home computers have the occasional lag.
as for rooting, it really just allows you to have some more control over your phone. It's a stepping stone yes, kind of like a gateway drug into android tweaking. But if you can control yourself it'll allow you to simply remove the ATT apps that suck and use a nice and zippy touchwiz (which I actually really like) and because TW is very iphoneish, you should have a good time navigating.
but man lemme tell you, the browser is much better than iPhone. Flash is pretty awesome. The Screen is much much much! better than the 4's and it is bigger which I personally like. I think it hits the sweet spot between big and medium (I wanted a streak but it took way to long to come out, and i'm glad i didn't bite on an import).
The only two apps which are better on iPhone are facebook and MLB at Bat (at bat because of mlb.tv) otherwise the selection is nice on android, and the apps are very diverse.
I think you'd like it, but then again this is just my opinion. I'm more of the tinkerer anyways and I HAD to jailbreak my iPhone to enjoy it.
the captivate has some neat little tweaks that'll keep surprising you (I find new things every day)
choice is yours hope i could help
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I also got suspicious about Daily Briefing once I saw that it was updating AP news constantly. I disabled AP News but kept the weather and the stock quotes. In my observation those are not updated automatically (or very infrequently). I think this was enough. I am still thinking about junking entire widget though

Every piece of [email protected] is different, just find the one that fits you best, if you know what I mean. Apple is great but equally the competition. Heck I had the HTC Aria before the Capt. It's was snappier and has a better UI I think, darn screen is just to small. My wife has the I4 and its cool too for what she uses it for.

Okay... thanks, guys.

I won't comment on regarding the operating system, but i'll tell you why pick Captivate.
_____
Let's just say, SGS currently offers nearly everything at the top of the market.
BUT, it would NOT be future proof. Technology advances regardless of any economical drawbacks, there WILL be better phones out there in the future.
Screen - debatable with iPhone4's screen
This really is a territory where personal preference will determine which the better screen will be, the differences are that minuscule.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
iPhone4 Retina Display vs. Galaxy S Super Amoled
CPU/GPU - YES YES YES. THREE times the speed of today's smartphone.
Coolermaster
Hummingbird vs. Snapdragon: The 1 GHz Smartphone Showdown
OS - Debatable so i wouldn't want to get into this. (but might i add this? the community behind android, let alone other OS, has an advantage of being futuristic-proof because of the regular tweets and mods)
Camera - 5mp, pretty darn low comparatively to other smartphones but it's adequate/satisfying after seeing the vids/pics
For me, I would certainly pick SGS. This is a bad place to ask for our opinon, it's a SGS dedicated section! (Trust me, you won't regret it. The screen is the dealbreaker)
_____
AT&T 16gb, No FFC, No flash, gyroscope
Tmobile 16gb, No FFC, No flash, gyroscope
Verizon 2gb, No FFC NOT SURE, flash, gyroscope, Wi-fi Hotspot supported
Sprint 1gb, Yes FFC NOT SURE, Flash, gyroscope, Keyboard, wi-fi hotspot supported
International 8/16gb, FFC, no Flash, gyroscope (not sure)
Captivate has metal battery door.
Nice sliding usb port.
Cool push down opening of the battery door.
better look, in my opinion
_____
Anything else you're wondering?

Seeing as how this is XDA, I'm not surprised everyone is siding with Android/SGS. I'm going to sled a little light on the iPhone since it has yet to be mentioned at all.
Did everyone forget about jailbreaking for the iPhone? The iPhone is just as customizable through jailbreaking as rooting is to Android. People are talking about how the apps are restricted but there is also Cydia and Cydia is freaking amazing.
I definitely recommend you to try and experience both. Reading up on how something is can only go so far. Having personal experience will give you A LOT of insight on how much devices are and which 1 best suits you. Go to AT&T, address the debate that you're having with them and I'm sure they'll gladly arrange something where you can try both devices for X amount of days.

Sounds Good said:
Does this mean that if we're happy with the iPhone out of the box we're better off with iPhone 4 since there's no need to mess with anything?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Probably best to stay with iPhone if you don't have a reason to switch.
That said, jailbreaking on the iPhone isn't anywhere near the same thing as rooting the Android.
IE, iPhone users have been waiting a long time now for the iOS4 jailbreak, Captivate users had a root before it ever came out.
Captivate is as simple as putting a zip file on the device, rebooting the phone and applying it. EASY. Not near as involved as jailbreaking the iPhone.

The Android Lag Issue...

So I convince my sisters husband to trade in his iphone 3Gs for an HTC Desire HD. Within a week he is selling it on ebay, siteing very weak battery performance, poor multitouch implementation and general Lag as the main issues. He's actually gone back the 3GS.
I am an android fan an user. But while the poll seems to suggest the Desire HD is the best android phone of the year personally I disagree. The battery life on this device is absolutely appalling. Whats the point in having all those features when you MUST disable pretty much all connectivity/widgets etc to get a days use out of it? Personally I think it's poor engineering on HTC'S part. This in my mind shows a lack of thought as well on HTC's part.
How is it also that a device with the most ram on the market and one of the most capable CPU's is still laggy? I've seen it myself, it does pale in comparison to an iphone 4. And the multitouch implementation is also not as smooth. Now these issues wouldn't bother me as much because I love the android platform but for regular more superficial consumers who aren't looking to hack their device (like my sstsres husband) these are obvious problems and perceived as a direct indication of the superiority of apple devices.
I used to be an HTC fan but I am now becoming skeptical. My next android device will almost certainly not run sense UI as I think it is a contributing LAG factor and provides little actual benefit due to the Weak battery performance on most high end HTC devices.
So can anyone explain to me why all high end android devices are considerably more laggy and the UI's less fluid than the Iphone 4 and even the 3GS? Is it the software coding? Graphics engine? Manufacturer specific optimizations? The platform as a whole? Multi tasking? Hardware/Software integration? The way the transitions are implemented?

sere83 said:
So can anyone explain to me why all high end android devices are considerably more laggy and the UI's less fluid than the Iphone 4 and even the 3GS? Is it the software coding? Graphics engine? Manufacturer specific optimizations? The platform as a whole? Multi tasking? Hardware/Software integration? The way the transitions are implemented?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I hate I can't be of assistance but I have not experienced lag on my high-end android device.

I see lag and have a HTC Evo. It lags while scrolling through web pages and it lags while scrolling through the apps. This is because of the Android OS. Open up system panel and scroll up and down in the open apps and watch the cpu spike to almost 100%...WTF. This is what causes the stuttery look. It's not smooth at all compared to the Iphone.

So can anyone explain to me why all high end android devices are considerably more laggy and the UI's less fluid than the Iphone 4 and even the 3GS? Is it the software coding? Graphics engine? Manufacturer specific optimizations? The platform as a whole? Multi tasking? Hardware/Software integration? The way the transitions are implemented?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The software isn't coded to efficiently offload to the GPU.
Dalvik isn't as great as other VM implementations (like .NET CF, I'm not sure if Apple uses a VM implementation - I have used, but never owned, an iOS device).
Manufacturer additions can clog the device up.
Also, Location services running in the background (even with GPS off) use your Cell Radio - draining battery. C2DM is nice and all, but most applications are coded also to work with 2.1 devices and tend to fail at choosing which one to use exclusively on FroYo devices. This leads to more battery drain.
Widgets use too much battery power. They need something similar to Live Tiles or PUSH-based updating instead of polling for widgets. If Google would develop decent stock Widgets, we'd be less dependent on these battery draining third-party or manufacturer widgets.
Most Android phones poll for Facebook/Twitter/etc. updates at specified intervals, using up battery. In addition, the Official (and third-party) Facebook/Twitter apps poll alongside the Android integrations, using up double the amount of battery power needed to update 2-4+ separate entities with the same data. Manufacturers should just integrate the official apps, instead of making redundant integrations into the base system. Waste of resources and battery power.
The base Android system is simply less efficient than something like Symbian when it comes to conserving data and Android developers generally don't worry about these types of things until after their applications are released, and it can take them months to remedy the issues due to the inefficiencies in the code, etc.
Akulamenuri said:
I hate I can't be of assistance but I have not experienced lag on my high-end android device.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Then don't respond.

Thanks N8ter, nice for someone to finally shed some light on the subject. Really think they need to address some of these issues, especially if they are to change the mainstreams perceptions of the OS.
Any chance this little update's gonna help you think?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jx3pdWBlZ34&feature=player_embedded

I've yet to see any great lag on my Desire Z.
Sure, it can lag from times. But usually doesn't. This is probably because of OC and using a non-rosie rom.
Using a non-sense rom would help even more, as Sense itself causes lag.

I don't get lag on my gt540.
And thats a low end phone running 2.1.
Why you getting lag?

Well,it's mostly due to lack of UI hardware acceleration.The iCrap had it first because Apple needs to develop their OS for only one piece of hardware,which means it can be optimized in every possible way.Android and other platforms(although I think WP7 also has hardware acceleration) lack this and all of the UI is for the CPU to handle.Software rendering is zip compared to hardware,as GPUs are far more powerful than CPUs,they just use a limited instruction set,but they need no compiler.
Hope I helped!

It's a serious design flaw the needs to be addressed. Use the GPU, Luke! It feels awful using an Android handset, especially if you come from the perfect (albeit "limited" in some respects) world of another platform (I don't want to mention its name here). This problem completely shatters the user-experience.
If you, like millions of others, want to see this design flaw addressed, then cast your vote here:
(I can't post links, just search for "Android Issue 6914" - should be the first result).
Also, looks like Samsung are doing something about it with their latest Android 2.2.1 update that should be hitting the UK soon:
(again, can't post links, go to YouTube and tack this on the end of the URL: "watch?v=JpH3oX9RhIE").
(Youtube: watch?v=MkZZXeF5uV8)
At the moment, "Android" in synonymous with "lag" and "sluggishness". The above YouTube links of 2.2.1 on the Galaxy S show Android the way nature intended it to run! They show that things can be different, and we don't have to suffer that shame and embarrassment of sub-standard UI performance that's a far second to (you know who)!!
I for one am hoping Samsung's example with 2.2.1 is a sign of things to come (I've been hoping this for over 2 years now - sigh...).

I hope so as well. Lay is a major issue and to me waste battery life.

I get no lag with my vibrant even with little storage left.

I rarely ever get lag, only time I have on my Inc is when I downloaded an app that didn't agree with the phone.
Sent from my ADR6300 using......blah blah you get the idea.

Had no lag on my Nexus One with Froyo or now with Gingerbread.

galaxys said:
Had no lag on my Nexus One with Froyo or now with Gingerbread.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Go try the Microbes LWP. You'll soon see it

DirkGently1 said:
Go try the Microbes LWP. You'll soon see it
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
HaHa! I'll take your word on that one and stick with my stable rom...for now

Samsung Fascinate. No lag. Battery about the same as an iPhone unless put through rigorous usage. Amazing screen / multitouch.
Screw HTC.
Samsung Fascinate, Verizon
EB01 Superclean 2.4
Kenesis' TransMyst GBKB (EPIIIIIC)
Mob87's Honeycomb Theme
Stock Kernel

I guess you guys have less than 50 apps..I understand..really.

On my at this point low powered Eris I'm running with sense and have 60 apps installed with almost no lag
Sent from my Eris using Tapatalk

I have 104 ..

My dad is using a stock Mytouch 4G and I noticed some lag when I was playing around with it, and we've only had our phones for about a month . I am running CM7 RC2 on mine and I think it's safe to say that sense is what causes a good part of the lag. I think GPU acceleration is what is needed to keep android from running dry due to laggy devices. I know a couple of people who immediatly opted to get the iPhone over android because the devices were faster.

Former Android users....

I was curious to hear from former Android users how you like WP7. Mainly what are your main gripes and what functions did you actually use that are no longer available. Also, are the tradeoffs worth it in the end and what features really *make* swapping worth it. I have loved android for a long time but I'm kind of wanting something new and have liked the wp7 interface from day one. Thanks!
Sent from my ThunderBolt using XDA App

Here goes:
Mainly what are your main gripes
No apps, and if there are apps they are over priced and crap alternatives to Android versions.
Homebrew is going to cost money.
I know its a phone and should mainly just be a phone, but there is nothing to do on it, I never leave my Android phone alone always playing with something but this I treat it like a nokia 3310 lol.
What functions did you actually use that are no longer available
I don't know what it is but there are some things missing but Mango is looking good but still not as good as Android and Ice Cream Sandwich will be coming out around the same time.
Are the tradeoffs worth it in the end and what features really *make* swapping worth it.
Only thing that is making me want to swap over is the Xbox Live thing other than that Android is far superior.
I have loved android for a long time but I'm kind of wanting something new and have liked the wp7 interface from day one.
I love Android also and also wanted to try something new but Windows Phone 7 isn't something new. Stick with Android and Launcher7 lol ^^

I think I'm fine with paying for my phone to be unlocked personally, one time fee for the latest beta builds forever? Honestly I don't know why HTC Samsung and Motorola aren't looking into this for android devices so they can make some extra $ and make us impatient (or reasonable people that don't like waiting for their craptastic skins) people happy.
I don't care much for Xbox live like I use to but I definitely like Zune pass (really its probably the top single feature that has me wanting wp7 as I use my phone for music a lot).
I love android but honestly, I'm tired of trying to throw on custom ROMs (its fun but tiring) on every phone I get trying to keep up with the updates. I think the only thing that is holding me to android at this point is the ability to wifi tether my phone to my tablet and the fact that mango phones are on their way (fall is only 2-3 months away so announcements should be made soon?)
So guys, is there some feature that I am missing that you really either miss from android or you really like that wp7 had when you made the swap?
Sent from my ThunderBolt using XDA App

i switched from my old Desire Z and X8 (both of em are still in use sometimes) to a 7 Pro.
so in my own personal opinion, a small "comparision":
1. UI & Customization
I like the UI of WP7 alot more, you can use Launcher7 on Android but it doesn't feel as good. Its smoother and a lot faster, mostly due to inability of "customization" but i really don't miss it. The tile system works surprisingly well, and yeah i don't have a lot to complain about.
No wallpapers, no app launchers etc. It's a locked phone pretty much. If you don't mind, well just don't care
If you want customization stay with Android, else both of em are good in their own ways -> personal preference.
2. Apps
For most people an important point. If you compare Android market to WP7 market, WP7 looses.. big time!
You are charged for almost every app (and a good bunch of em are overpriced!). While free apps, and sometimes test versions of the paid apps are good enough, its still nothing in comparision to Android.
If you want specific apps, check prices first! (i'd recommend it before buying the phone )
There are some social features integrated into WP7 but at the moment (Pre-Mango for me still), they aren't complete. The replacements for those features are at best mediocore, sometimes they shut off randomly etc. There might be some better apps for those, but since i don't use em very much, i havent searched for them.
Otherwise the quality of the apps and games i downloaded is really good, though some of em are missing. As i said, check before you buy the phone, if you didnt already.
3. Features:
Well again the points goes to Android. Bluetooth File Transfer, Tethering and stuff like that, you won't find it on any current WP7 phone (unless you are a Mango user, but i don't know if they implement some of those features). If you need it, well i wouldn't recommend buying a WP7 as of now.
Other than that, i don't really miss any important ones.
4. Final Thoughts:
Since i don't have the WP7 for too long forgive me if i missed or overexaggerated on somethings.
In the end i think, WP7 is a real good OS. While locked down very hard, it just works (just like the hated Apple). While it does feel kind of inferioer to Android (due to the lack of some importants features mostly), it really isn't. There are workarounds for everything, though they are complicated sometimes
With Mango.. well no, even now in MY opinion (which means only for my needs etc), i equal WP7 to Android. While i still use my Androids sometimes (mainly for tethering etc), i often see myself not missing those phones.
I'd recommend WP7 everytime, as well as Android. Just get some information on both, maybe if your friends have said phones, compare them ( or go to the store and do the same).
In the end it comes down to one's need and preference
If you want, you could wait for Mango devices. Though i guess they won't up the hardware too much, maybe add some features like Front Facing Camera and stuff like that, but that's it.
I hope i could help some

BartJJ said:
I was curious to hear from former Android users how you like WP7. Mainly what are your main gripes and what functions did you actually use that are no longer available. Also, are the tradeoffs worth it in the end and what features really *make* swapping worth it. I have loved android for a long time but I'm kind of wanting something new and have liked the wp7 interface from day one. Thanks!
Sent from my ThunderBolt using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This entire WP7 OS is simply beautiful and fluid. Rather than 95% of all other android devices, all WP7s are completely lag free while still having a very attractive and intuitive interface. I have 28k apps at my disposal and that means one for everything I would want. The WP7 community here is amazing and hacking / development itself isn't fragmented. I've owned 3 android devices and 2 iOS devices in the past and I'm honestly never looking back.

Android too me seems very slow and inconsistent. Running a Samsung Galaxy I often find when the thing lags, it lags to the extreme. The whole app-store mechanism I find a mess, especially because to much power is given to the app developers. More often then not, they abuse these powers which destroys your battery life.
I like the way WP7 is headed, and I like what Microsoft is doing to keep it a reliable platform. What I don't like however, is the update-procedure as it's very poorly performed. I'm not blaming any company in particular, but I do think updates needs to rolled out faster. Why do ISPs have to test every minor update?
Other then that, the WP7 UI is far superior, and app support is coming along well now. We just need a major bump and hopefully Nokia will spark this? I'm looking forward to purchasing a 2nd gen phone, namely a Nokia.

I went from iphone 3gs to blackberry torch to palm pre 2 to samsung focus to atrix 4g to iphone 4 and back to samsung focus and i love it.
The largest difference to me is that WP7 lacks customization. With android you will hardly ever find 2 phones that have the same ui and settings. All windows phones home screens look the same. I am ok w/ lack of apps. Honestly there is pretty much something for everything already. What would make me happy and never go back to android is being able to personalize the home screen. Maybe some transparent tiles and a wallpaper background for homescreen. that would be awesome.

I'll try to keep this succinct. I had an Evo 4G for the last year, then switched to an HTC Arrive a couple days ago.
Like:
-Most of the apps I used on Android are available on WP7
-As a Zune Pass subscriber, having that ecosystem on my phone is awesome
-It feels like for tasks I do often, I can do all of those tasks in a lot less time than it took on Android
-I primarily develop in .NET, so the dev tools are way friendlier to me than Android's.
Dislike:
-WP7 doesn't have anything that comes close to the awesomeness of Google Navigation
-I'm pretty heavily into the Google Voice ecosystem. Losing the tight integration there is annoying.
-As a Zune Pass subscriber, the lack of expandable storage is agonizing. I can never completely get rid of my Zune HD because it's still the device I have to go to if I want access to all of my music/podcasts.
-The Amazon Android App Market's free app of the day has spoiled me so badly on the pricing race-to-the-bottom front that I am finding it very hard to convince myself to buy any of the games on WP7.
Overall, I am having a good time so far. There is some functionality I am missing, but nothing that I'd consider a showstopper. I still have my Evo 4G, so I might end up switching between the two devices every couple months or so.

I just switched from a samsung mesmerize to a HTC TP7.
My first impression was WOW. I instantly liked the tp7. it's more responsive, it's faster, i can do stuff faster, and everything loads faster. Typing on the screen is more accurate and fixes my screw ups better.
As for apps, the android market has tons more, but in my experience 99.99999% of them are completely and totally useless and the ones that aren't useless i found to be lacking. There were a few that were good, but not many. So far the ones i've tried on WP7 actually seem to be of decent quality and i can find an app for everything i need so far. Some are still obviously in the early stages and need some more features but the app feels higher quality. Of course the windows marketplace has it's share of fart, burp and police light apps. (who downloads these stupid things?)
My ONLY complaint so far is the fact i can't do custom colors on the tiles. the stock colors frankly suck. I tried unlocking the phone and chevron doesn't find the phone at all so i'm wondering if this phone just isn't unlockable with that method. Not being able to do custom tile colors just seems like an obvious omission that should have been fixed allready.
Other than that i like this phone MUCH better, it's faster and doesn't hiccup as much as android did. The loss of customization sucks a bit but honestly, who really cares. I'd rather have the phone work well than be able to customize the wallpaper. The tile color though is killing me.

lots of very good points expressed already, and I agree with most.
However: wm6.5 was far superior to my android in all the little area's that I liked / wanted to tweak... which left me disappointed when I switched to android and frustrated with the infancy of the android based os / app wanting some of the simple things that I was used to on wm6.5.
Then I jump back to windows mobile (thinking it will be great to reg edit again) only to find... tile overlay with no access to the good stuff, and on top of that extremely limited in more ways than android... apps (android copycat) extremely limited and very high priced... I never needed apps to do what I wanted. windows already had it, I just needed to turn it on or off and or tweak it the way I wanted it. customize to no end.
Now I really like the smooth integrated feel, and I took a step down in hardware just to get the operating system. I am back to hacking a android wanna be like device just to get to the meat of the phone, so I can use the power of wm7. I think...

Morrisme said:
Now I really like the smooth integrated feel, and I took a step down in hardware just to get the operating system. I am back to hacking a android wanna be like device just to get to the meat of the phone, so I can use the power of wm7. I think...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's WP7 !

I think all we have to do is to wait a bit. My only problem is, that the application store is pretty empty(and overpriced), but hopefully it's gonna change.
What I see is, that Microsoft tries to copy Apple in terms of system optimisation, and simplicity, and so far I say it's successful.
I hope once the marketplace will be flooded with applications, there will be a serious filter on what apps they allow, and what they don't. The main criteria of selling on marketplace should be to have a perfectly smooth application on every windows based mobile, because what I see now is far away from that. Applications seem to just thrown together for wp7 in a day or 2.
Otherwise coming from android myself, I miss certain apps, or games, or functions, but the other hand I'm impressed by it's UI, and smoothness.
WP7 has potential, but it's time is not yet here. Once a great poet said in youtube comments: "Iphone is the past, Android is the present, WP7 is the future"

I came from evo 4g and I love it I got an arrive. Its so quick. And something no one mentioned battery life is great sure if I game for a while I will need a top off bit other then that a work day is no problem btw my work day is 12 hrs

There are some surprising holes in WP7 which I didn't expect compared to other OS.
1) No common Compass API - it's down to individual hardware manufacturers to supply drivers and they all implement it in a different way. So what works on an LG won't work on a Samsung or HTC. Really hinders the use of maps and star gazing apps etc. This is despite the compass being a mandatory part of MS' hardware spec. So much for MS' tight hardware platform control. And don't think about trying Mango - even if you have the compass working in NoDo it won't in the Mango Beta - and MS say it wont be availible until the OEMs release their final versions. The whole point of a Beta and RTM is so developers can test and adapt their software ready for launch - but with the compass augmented apps (one of the killer features of modern smartphones) they are screwed. We have a common API for GPS, why not Compass?
2) No PIN delay - even the most basic phone that offers Exchange support allows a configurable delay before the phone is PIN locked, or respects the delay imposed by an Exchange security policy. Everytime my screen goes off - I have to enter an 8 character password - despite the Exchange policy allowing a max 20 minute delay. Is this fixed in mango? Is this how MS works with MS?
..and relax...

[DISCUSSION] Androids "Laggy" UI?...

Before I begin, I am fairly new to posting actively on XDA but I am far from new to XDA and Android. Please also note that I am not a developer or Android coder I am a Grad Student with much interest in technology and of course the Nexus S being it's my baby
So, this is all in reference to two things, one is this artical posted by a ex-Google intern, in reply to a former Google Android engineer. https://plus.google.com/100838276097451809262/posts/VDkV9XaJRGS and two, the latest and greatest Ice Cream Sandwich.
The post is about why Android phones UI is generally more laggy compared to the likes of Windows Phone, and iOS. I am not going to go into details much on this so please read the link, it is really quite interesting.
Here are my two cents on the whole UI Lag discussion that I thought I would bring up here to see what you guys think.
I am currently using a normal Nexus S rooted and running the Crossbones ICS ROM, and I have used many other ICS ROMs as well. Before I rooted my phone and tried out some custom ROMs, I was using stock Android 2.3.X for several months, and I was satisfied... but not impressed with the visuals Android had to offer. True I knew all about Android before buying the phone but I was expecting a little more from Google' flagship device (At the time) and was wanting a little more eye candy: Thus leading to me rooting the phone after much debate of waiting for ICS to officially come out or skipping into the joys of early betas and amazing 2.3.X ROMs. Now, being a person who likes a good looking ROM and all the smooth eye candy I went over to MIUI for quite some time (BrainMasters 2.3.7 version) and I stuck to it for a fair time. MIUI was a vast improvement in the browser, UI and everything in general which is why I liked it so much, yet it was still totally stable and very fast.
Moving on to ICS, now in fairness I am not using a official ICS ROM but all the ones I have tried were identical in overall differences that I may mention.
With Android 4.0 I noticed that there was a IMMEDIATELY noticeable difference in the design (I really love a good looking ROM) and more importantly the smooth performance of... EVERYTHING! To more clearly state my point here is what I mean mostly...
Android 2.3.X
Load up desktop version of YouTube and I scroll around finding...
-Delay in response time
-Drop in FPS
-Video and flash content is very choppy and doesn't hold to frame well
-Pinch to zoom works smooth but initial response is delayed
etc.
Android 4.0.3
Load up desktop version of YouTube (Or ANY webpage I have tried on it) and see...
-Response is immediate and very smooth on scroll
-DOES NOT JITTER WHEN FULLY ZOOMED OUT
-Pinch to zoom works 100%
-Maintains high FPS no noticed drops
-(Amazingly...) Flash content on all sites tried stays not only in frame and in tact with the page but video plays at a CONSISTENT FPS (Something Dual-Core 2.3 phones suffer on!)
-Sometimes has to reload certain areas once panned and or zoomed.
I encourage you to test this yourself if you can on both versions
The battle claimed in link I posted is that you can have a smooth UI but background processes suffer, well on Android 4.0.3 it seems they have both, because it is smooth (As your eyes will tell you) and it loads say for example images on a website AS you scroll and zoom where as in iOS sometimes pinch to zoom or scroll will stop all loading. Websites with timers are a good example...
iPhone/iOS
Zooming/Panning with a timer on the webpage FREEZES the timer.
Android 2.3.X
Zooming/Panning with a timer may stop the timer, but when fingers are released countdown continues depending on how many seconds you held your finger down.
Android 4.0.3
Zooming/Panning with a timer keeps timer going and displays it accurately.
Basically what the engineer claims is that iOS prioritizes the look, and animation rendering thread, over anything else, and Android runs it along with everything else, and if Android chose to change this, then they would need a total framework re-write (Almost out of the question considering the consequences of such) Yet to me it seems like those Google engineers have worked out both?...
I am again not a coding person so if you are I would love to hear why this is?
Any input on this from your perspectives?

Reserved
Sent from my Nexus S 4G using XDA App. Developer of brickROM, and OP of XDA Thread of The Year 2011.

Shark_On_Land said:
Reserved
Sent from my Nexus S 4G using XDA App. Developer of brickROM, and OP of XDA Thread of The Year 2011.
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Why do people reserve on here?

LGIQEXPO said:
iPhone/iOS
Zooming/Panning with a timer on the webpage FREEZES the timer.
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Click to collapse
It think it's kinda normal. The iPhone is not multi-task at all, when you do something, everything is paused and the processor is only working on what you're doing.
It's designed so.
Interesting though, thanks for the share.

kooskoos1814 said:
It think it's kinda normal. The iPhone is not multi-task at all, when you do something, everything is paused and the processor is only working on what you're doing.
It's designed so.
Interesting though, thanks for the share.
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Click to collapse
So its a bfs kernel?
Sent from my Nexus S 4G using XDA App. Developer of brickROM, and OP of XDA Thread of The Year 2011.

LGIQEXPO said:
Why do people reserve on here?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If this Knowledge is key.
Sent from my Nexus S 4G using XDA App. Developer of brickROM, and OP of XDA Thread of The Year 2011.

LGIQEXPO said:
Android chose to change this, then they would need a total framework re-write
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Click to collapse
That's basically the TLDR.
Now, what will Google do? Probably nothing, quad cores are around the corner and rumors of today are, they'll start with their own HW.
They need to focus really fast, if they don't want to become the next Microsoft. Android has a large user base by now, but in this year, WP will come closer and closer. More and more larger apps from iOS & Android are now ported on this platform, which doesn't have UI framework issues and is quite well polished to run on older HW (comparison: HTC Desire vs HTC Trophy).
I was saddened to realize that Apple did the multitasking right. Why ?
Well, multitasking on the PC is not the same as on the phone. You don't have apps side by side.
So when I'm interacting with an app, I want full UI response and don't care what's running in the background or what system is doing. It should listen to ME and STOP anything else. That's why the iOS is so fluid.
Androids Intent system is brilliant, also the notification stuff. But as in UX, Apple (and MS - they went more Apple style here) knows what they're doing.

The older Androids suffered from the effects of a true multitasking system, though even the now dating single core Nexus S can easily and happily runs the latest and greatest practically lag free. The biggest factor in all of this is the kernel - the only one which i find noticeable lag in is the stock kernel. This should be the first place google looks at in upcoming devices, even though such enhancements aren't even needed anymore (all SGS2s i've used are comparable to the iphones fluidity).
In the coming years apple will likely fall behind. Phones are becoming like computers, and hell so many people are using phone OSs as a computer replacement (i'm looking at you, tablets).
A couple of rough years with weaker-than-preferred hardware are, in my opinion, worth it for getting a several year headstart. I'm normally not for an OS requiring lots of hardware to keep up, but the damn thing has more pretty effects than my windows desktop. Try running windows xp with 512mb of ram and a 1.4ghz celeron processor and let us remember what progress requires.

Harbb said:
The older Androids suffered from the effects of a true multitasking system, though even the now dating single core Nexus S can easily and happily runs the latest and greatest practically lag free.
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Sorry, but anyone saying any Android is lag free, compared to 60fps iOS fluidity - needs to get an eye surgery.

madd0g said:
Sorry, but anyone saying any Android is lag free, compared to 60fps iOS fluidity - needs to get an eye surgery.
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Lags in certain apps. Like twitter. However general UI is lag free. Lag comes here and there however.
Sent from my Nexus S using Tapatalk

In general comparisons to an iphone 4 it really is not far off. Browsing around home screens and app menu and working with them is on par. Switching back and forth in the settings menu takes its time in comparison, which is definitely a pain, as well as lag when doing something that hasn't been done in a while. Some apps tend to fail with scrolling lists for reasons i do not know; not caching images maybe?
The iPhone definitely is better with the UI, there are no doubts here. But in a couple of days of switching back and forth it is starting to seem more fluid because of how iOS reacts with scrolling and the likes - it's very sensitive and flings around for a long time. I noticed this when playing with a 3gs and 4 next to each other, the 3gs was lagging but still felt very fluid - somehow.

Multi core cpus are the cure to this lag. Simple. I experience this lag on minor occasions with my nexus. I'm sure if I had a gnex I'd never notice it at all. Android does so much more than ios. As so, its not gonna run as smooth no matter what. I'd take a slightly laggy, fully functional ui over a closed in, non multitasking, uncustomizable heap of hipster trash anyday.
pwnd by my ns4geee yo

madd0g said:
That's basically the TLDR.
Now, what will Google do? Probably nothing, quad cores are around the corner and rumors of today are, they'll start with their own HW.
They need to focus really fast, if they don't want to become the next Microsoft. Android has a large user base by now, but in this year, WP will come closer and closer. More and more larger apps from iOS & Android are now ported on this platform, which doesn't have UI framework issues and is quite well polished to run on older HW (comparison: HTC Desire vs HTC Trophy).
I was saddened to realize that Apple did the multitasking right. Why ?
Well, multitasking on the PC is not the same as on the phone. You don't have apps side by side.
So when I'm interacting with an app, I want full UI response and don't care what's running in the background or what system is doing. It should listen to ME and STOP anything else. That's why the iOS is so fluid.
Androids Intent system is brilliant, also the notification stuff. But as in UX, Apple (and MS - they went more Apple style here) knows what they're doing.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sorry but none the Apps I use are on Windows Phone. I've even ask developers to port some apps over, and their answers were all the, "its not worth it".
Yeah its smooth, but that's it. I'll buy a iPhone if I want looks over function.
Fyi, everything is not 60 fps on IOS, just like Android.
Sent from my Nexus S using Tapatalk

RushAOZ said:
Multi core cpus are the cure to this lag.
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Click to collapse
That's just a poor excuse for bad OS architecture planning and inefficient coding. A perfect proof for that is the above stated comparison of HTC Desire & HTC Trophy. Same hardware, totally different UI response.
And HW ain't the solution, unless they suddenly make a magical battery that lasts longer. You can't just stuff hardware and hope for the best. That's why proper coding on embedded devices is so important.
---------- Post added at 04:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:27 PM ----------
vetvito said:
Sorry but none the Apps I use are on Windows Phone. I've even ask developers to port some apps over, and their answers were all the, "its not worth it".
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True, at this point. But I see more and more apps that were ported first from iOS to Android, now being ported to WP and the number of major apps IS rising, even faster then it was for Android in 2009/2010.
Google can't sleep now, when he's still on the top.
Another point: they have more and more inconsistency issues then ever, just see the Nexus line. New device is on an older 4.0.2 , old dev phone is on 4.0.3, but not the 4G version. Hilarious. They managed to get their own phone line fragmented.
They start many different new services, then they get behind with trying to fit them all together, UI wise or function wise. Then in the middle they change the UI look. Like chasing their own tail.
We could go on and on, but if they want to make drastic changes for anything on the OS, now it's still the time. Specially since now there's an opportunity when they develop the next Android version.

madd0g said:
That's just a poor excuse for bad OS architecture planning and inefficient coding. A perfect proof for that is the above stated comparison of HTC Desire & HTC Trophy. Same hardware, totally different UI response.
And HW ain't the solution, unless they suddenly make a magical battery that lasts longer. You can't just stuff hardware and hope for the best. That's why proper coding on embedded devices is so important.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You do understand how hardware grows? Smaller chips equal less power consumption. Like how the gs2 has better battery life than my nexus.. hardware IS the cure. This is why quad cores are being brought in so early. Do you not think Google knows this? Besides is this "lag" that big a deal to you folks?? Its barely noticeable on my nexus. My buddy just switched over from an iPhone 4 to an epic touch 4g and he wont stop talking about it. He's owned it for a month now and he always rubs in my face how fast it is and how lag free it is compared to his iPhone 4.
pwnd by my ns4geee yo

RushAOZ said:
You do understand how hardware grows? Smaller chips equal less power consumption. Like how the gs2 has better battery life than my nexus.. hardware IS the cure. This is why quad cores are being brought in so early. Do you not think Google knows this? Besides is this "lag" that big a deal to you folks??
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Yeah, it grows slowly, because the makers of HW want to collect $ from each iteration. HW is not the cure, it's one part of the equation. Power is nothing without control.
Yes, I think any micro lag is a BIG thing. Have you ever worked behind the PC with a ****ty/old mouse with the ball + a worn out mouse pad ? It stuck, skipped etc. Or consider moving your mouse around in on the desktop and the cursor stutters from the time to time. It's like someone slapping you in the face every single time. And that not what I expect from a couple hundred dollar device.

madd0g said:
That's just a poor excuse for bad OS architecture planning and inefficient coding. A perfect proof for that is the above stated comparison of HTC Desire & HTC Trophy. Same hardware, totally different UI response.
And HW ain't the solution, unless they suddenly make a magical battery that lasts longer. You can't just stuff hardware and hope for the best. That's why proper coding on embedded devices is so important.
---------- Post added at 04:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:27 PM ----------
True, at this point. But I see more and more apps that were ported first from iOS to Android, now being ported to WP and the number of major apps IS rising, even faster then it was for Android in 2009/2010.
Google can't sleep now, when he's still on the top.
Another point: they have more and more inconsistency issues then ever, just see the Nexus line. New device is on an older 4.0.2 , old dev phone is on 4.0.3, but not the 4G version. Hilarious. They managed to get their own phone line fragmented.
They start many different new services, then they get behind with trying to fit them all together, UI wise or function wise. Then in the middle they change the UI look. Like chasing their own tail.
We could go on and on, but if they want to make drastic changes for anything on the OS, now it's still the time. Specially since now there's an opportunity when they develop the next Android version.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Nah, windows phone isn't targeted at the Android market. Windows Phone is clearly after the iPhone market, however it fails big time. Its 2012 and still requires the use of cords. The major apps are pathetic, ever tried WhatsApp? Tango really sucks, angry birds doesn't even have all the levels, I could go on and on. Those are just the major apps, the other apps are even worse.
But yeah, its smooth. The UI gets beyond boring after a couple of weeks. I actually missed my static icons on Android. Hell the iPhone started looking good to me after dealing with my hd7.
Sent from my Nexus S using Tapatalk

All of you are saying that Windows Phone and iOS have different priorities over Android and this is true. Apple believes in making everything look and function nicely with out actually adding anything new. Android is more like the true computer if anything. I think that in coming years with quad core phones Android will soon be able to dedicate a whole core at 1000mghz to the UI if they wanted to opposed to the current 100ish it has.

LGIQEXPO said:
All of you are saying that Windows Phone and iOS have different priorities over Android and this is true. Apple believes in making everything look and function nicely with out actually adding anything new. Android is more like the true computer if anything. I think that in coming years with quad core phones Android will soon be able to dedicate a whole core at 1000mghz to the UI if they wanted to opposed to the current 100ish it has.
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Click to collapse
Heh. A laymans solution without thinking constructively.
You can throw 100 cores in if you want, but then what happens. On current dual core phones, the 2nd core is active only when needed. Battery life would be hammered down if it wasn't. Now imagine the same scenario for a quad. 1 core for UI animation ? Yeah, right for 4h of battery life perhaps.
This is from Cayniarb (http://forum.xda-developers.com/member.php?u=2634309), question was if you can enable the 2nd core to be on all the time instead of just when needed :
"People forcing cpu1 (the second core) to be online all the time will destroy your battery life and very possibly cause permanent damage to the chip in your device. The second core comes online under load. It is supposed to work that way. The architecture here is multi-processor - not the same as the multi-core architecture people are more familiar with in desk/laptops. This means that it is 2 pretty much entirely independent CPUs cast on one piece of silicon (as opposed to 1 CPU with multiple processing cores). This architecture allows the second core to be 'hotplugged' offline. It saves on power consumption, reduces heat output, and increases the longterm stability of the chip. Additionally, the Snapdragon S3 is the only aSynchronous Multi-Processor (aSMP) available. The critical difference there is that when cpu1 comes online it operates fully independently of cpu0.
The problem that aSMP and SMP chips have in android is that the core operating system is not designed to distribute processes across multiple cores/processors. Effectively, what you get here is a single core phone clocked at 1.2Ghz except when you really push it, there is an extra 1.2Ghz available on top. It's still only working one thread at a time, so it is not multiprocessing.
In order for anyone to experience the real power and benefit of dual-core phones, the core operating system needs to be completely reworked to include multiprocessing support natively... Oh wait. Isn't that happening like next week or something?""
Not many apps are coded right now to properly use 2 cores and they exist almost for 1 year now. How long would it take to redone this for quads? Again, HW is nothing without coding it right.

Is this not just history repeating itself? Patience, the future will answer our concerns.