Database Info

very poor Internal flash memory performance on new HTC devices

it is very surprising that file transfer performance hasnt improved a bit in the last years. i mean it takes my xperia the same time to install a cab or to launch the same app from my 6-year-old Magican
is there something that is preventing HTC from using these crazy SLC-based 100+MB/sec flash chips found in new SSD drives. really appriciate any insite on this

fatso485 said:
it is very surprising that file transfer performance hasnt improved a bit in the last years. i mean it takes my xperia the same time to install a cab or to launch an app from my 6-year-old Magican
is there something that is preventing HTC from using these crazy SLC-based 100+MB/sec flash chips found in new SSD drives. really appriciate any insite on this
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Click to collapse
Those chips aren't really that fast, they are just being run massively parallel in raid like arrays. Even still though, a setup as fast as what they use in compact flash cards would be nice.

- there are some major improvments in flash performance just take any normal flash drive (no RAID-like voodoo going on here) these days and compare it to the ones you used to have 3-4 years ago. the difference is MASSIVE even on low 1GB flash drives.
-what's wrong with running parallel flash chips in a raid-like fashion on a mobile device. it seems like one way to gain massive performance increases only

fatso485 said:
it is very surprising that file transfer performance hasnt improved a bit in the last years. i mean it takes my xperia the same time to install a cab or to launch the same app from my 6-year-old Magican
is there something that is preventing HTC from using these crazy SLC-based 100+MB/sec flash chips found in new SSD drives. really appriciate any insite on this
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I really don't think it is the chips, it is the CRAPPY Qualcomm processors HTC uses for our expensive phones.

With the size of the chips, the price, the controller, etc... would get sort of expensive. For example, an Intel SSD looks like this. http://blog.wired.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/12/02/inside_an_ssd.jpg and costs a fortune. Their controller is the only one sofar that doesn't suck horribly at small file writes.
Look at this little glimmer of hope though
http://www.pretec.com/epages/Store....re.Pretec/Products/"news-March 03, 2009.no.2"
Too bad the a phone would probably make horrible use of it. My class 6 card might as well be a class 1 for how well my phone makes use of it.

oic0 said:
Look at this little glimmer of hope though
http://www.pretec.com/epages/Store....re.Pretec/Products/"news-March 03, 2009.no.2"
Too bad the a phone would probably make horrible use of it. My class 6 card might as well be a class 1 for how well my phone makes use of it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
thats exatly my point. why are $800+ 2009 devices perform identically (internal flash memory) to 2003 devices. people seem to only care about obvious things like CPU speed when hey talk about performance.

Can I/O issue be fixed by Software? Evidence based.

Undoubtedly this is the hottest topic on this forum (so it seems). Based on what I have seen, there has been no convincing proof on either way. The benchmarks score comparison are great, but my belief is it may not reflect day to day experience as most of time you never push the system to its max.
So my hypothesis is Transformer Infintiy's I/O issue related user experience can be fixed by software even if the underlying issue had been hardware related.
Since some people believes the opposite, and this is infinity forum. I wanted to make myself right for the sake of infinity owners. But given no previous good convincing test, I have decided to test one thing.
First video
This is one example video that Anandtech showed back in July that Infinity is indeed experiencing I/O issue. This video simply proved that while I/O is in use, the whole system slowed down. Based on the date of this post, which is 7/26/2012, I am assuming the firmware used was V9.4.5.22.
Second video
The credit of this video goes to BarryH. The reason why I included this is Galaxy note 10.1, which I owned for 3 weeks should be used as gold standard in this comparison as it is perhaps the only worth mentioning competition of TF700T and it is really great tablet of its own. You can clearly see that the downloading file in background really had no effect at all on the Galaxy Note 10.1.
Third video
The above is my very first Youtube video ever. But that's not a point. This is running stock ROM, rooted. No build prop tweaks. The only special thing I have installed here is Browser2Ram. So for this basically, I used AirDroid (WIFI file transfer application) and transferred 1G+ file over my network. While doing so, I basically opened browser, and went to the same site as Galaxy note 10.1 did in above. The little delay after opening browser is not hang in browser, but simply I forgot to set to landscape mode.
Conclusion: Based on these I believe I can conclude followings:
Compare first to third. Infinity had already significantly improved its I/O performance. How did it do? Clearly not by changing hardware, but rather software. So this proves my hypothesis of software can indeed fix I/O issue that user actually see.
*Please note that since I have browser2ram installed, this may be different for pure stock user experience. And Zeus users may even have better experience than me.
Special thanks goes to BarryH_GEG. Without him posting first two youtube clips I wouldn't have actually realized that Infinity's I/O issue had already been nearly completely fixed on my unit.
.
For clarification, basically all I am doing here is that there is indeed a way that what we call IO issue that can be alleviated by software modification. So if anyone state its all hardware and can never be fixed/improved, that is incorrect statement. However, this does not prove stock Infinity in the future will receive such update. So you can have a hope, but hope has no guarantee.
Different people use device differently so I say try the device and update to the latest firmware and see if you still face the IO issue that is significant enough for you. I can say that it is definitely not as bad as first video show. Whether you can tolerate the IO lag or not is simply your personal preference. In the end, all devices have lag to certain degree when stressed. Even PS3, Xbox 360, or high end PC games gets frame drops when you stress them. The question is whether you care, and whether you push to the limit.
If I ever get chance, I will try to turn off Browser2Ram and try do the same test again and see what the true stock experience is, though I am certain it is not as bad as Anandtech video.
Update 9/24/2012
Since some people are pointing to the issue resolution is purely due to Browser2Ram, I did same test with this time while AirDroid transferring 1.1 GB file over the WIFI, I launched Final Fantasy 3. No lag even while launching. Everything is smooth. However, if I launch Horn instead of FF3, I did notice significantly longer time to load. So this is simply proving what I have said. We can fix issue to certain degree but whether the certain degree is enough for a specific user is really dependent. I am ok not being able to play Horn while I am transferring 1GB data, but some may not.

Of course Browser2RAM will help on this, you're caching to just RAM instead of the stupidly slow NAND memory Asus decided to put in their flagship device. Try the same "test" on complete stock and you'll see that it's a vastly different experience.
Zeus ROM works around the I/O issue by reducing or even eliminating SQLite fsyncs. Risky business for your data, good for performance. I like my data without corruption, so I'll pass, but others may not see it that way. They simply want the performance this tablet should have had in the first place.
Asus did reduce the overall sluggishness slightly with the .26 update that changed from NOOP scheduler to CFQ in the kernel, but the tablet still stutters. Browsing is far from smooth, even with alternative browsers like Dolphin HD. Performance is decent right after a reboot, but once memory fills up and Android starts its memory management and closing down processes (doing a lot of fsyncs in the process) it grinds to a halt. This wouldn't be a problem if flash I/O performance was higher.
The CM-based ROMs starting to pop up for the TF700 seems to help on the performance as well, and that's still with the 2.6.39.4-based kernel. CM's always been smoother than pretty much any stock device in my experience though, so no surprise there. They can never completely get rid of it though, since it's a hardware issue. Asus were stupid and chose cheap, slow NAND that gets totally crippled if you're doing random writes. There's no magic software to just fix it.
I'm sorry, but I don't really see anything new here, and your "evidence" isn't really that, simply because you're not running stock. You're using Browser2RAM which greatly increases browsing performance by using RAM, which is several magnitudes faster than NAND flash. It's not even comparable. The TF700 (and TF201 and TF300 and TF101) I/O issue can never be completely fixed in software, only (slightly) improved, often at the cost of data safety (disable SQLite fsyncs or available RAM (Browser2RAM).
It's all well-known by now that Asus ****ed up (again!). If it weren't for the oh-so-sweet high resolution display and keyboard dock I'd get a different tablet.

Einride said:
I'm sorry, but I don't really see anything new here, and your "evidence" isn't really that, simply because you're not running stock. You're using Browser2RAM which greatly increases browsing performance by using RAM, which is several magnitudes faster than NAND flash. It's not even comparable. The TF700 (and TF201 and TF300 and TF101) I/O issue can never be completely fixed in software, only (slightly) improved, often at the cost of data safety (disable SQLite fsyncs or available RAM (Browser2RAM).
It's all well-known by now that Asus ****ed up (again!). If it weren't for the oh-so-sweet high resolution display and keyboard dock I'd get a different tablet.
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Click to collapse
Hi Einride,
Sorry if I directed you wrong way. But my point here is not to prove stock has already fixed issue or not even to say IO issue can be completely fixed. The latter is simply unknown. But I am just proving here that there are ways software can make difference in user front, which some people questions.
To be honest, how do you even know RAM is not bottle neck? What about GPU, which is far inferior to the new Ipad in fact its even worth than iPad 2 by far margin? We see a number, and see its less than others so concluded its the conundrum, which could be true by good chance but not a proof.
Here I am basically proved whatever the method is, there is a way to improve what people call IO issue can be alleviated by software approach.
Because Anandtech showed IO issue originally on infinity stating background 2MBps download resulted in marked degradation in browser performance. I basically had 1GB file transfer over WIFI using Airdroid.
So I basically proved here that my infinity, which clearly has not touched anything on hardwarewise, but have improved performance since Anandtech review.
As for Zeus fsync, I don't use Zeus so cannot speak for it. But if they turn off fsync and still keep the system stable without data loss, why would you care?
Having said all this, I don't know if ASUS will ever put effort in fixing issue because if they would why won't they simply install browser2ram as part of their firmware? But they are doing something as I noticed they took out pixit from background with latest firmware, which kept running in background for no reason..

Einride is on target. This is a hardware issue, so any "fix" is going to be a kludge and come with a bunch of compromise. I can't believe ASUS specced the same crazy slow flash on the 700 that they did the 201/300.
FWIW, The best/cleverest hack I have seen is the TF201 dev who has been playing with remounting the internal SD card to point at the removable microSD card. If this can be made to work smoothly, it means that if you have an external card that is specced much higher than the stock internal flash you could eliminate the issue completely.
But of course that is really hacky. It's one of those you could brick if you don't install it right kind of deals so I don't ever see it being a mainstream options for these tabs unless ASUS productized it which would be a big expense in support for them, so, again, it'll never happen.

I've got to push back a bit. I think this is firmware related, but not of the device of individual components. I think this can be fixed with "software"

tf201 said:
I've got to push back a bit. I think this is firmware related, but not of the device of individual components. I think this can be fixed with "software"
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You can continue thinking that if it makes you feel better. I like and enjoy my Infinity but as a digital design engineer, to me this seems to clearly be a design issue @ the hardware level and will always limit the overall system to some degree. There are hard limits in any hardware software system. <Shrug>
My best advice to an end user is what I would give for any device issue: to decide whether it is a deal breaker for you *as it stands right now* and not sit around and wait for or bank on some kludgy cure that may be worse than the disease.
It's not too bad for me, I don't do tons of random I/O or web browsing. In fact, I'd say it would have taken me a long time to notice this on my own without the benchmarking and threads here... If it was unacceptable I would cut my losses and sell the tab and get a different device. Life is short, guys.

zenaxe said:
Einride is on target. This is a hardware issue, so any "fix" is going to be a kludge and come with a bunch of compromise. I can't believe ASUS specced the same crazy slow flash on the 700 that they did the 201/300.
FWIW, The best/cleverest hack I have seen is the TF201 dev who has been playing with remounting the internal SD card to point at the removable microSD card. If this can be made to work smoothly, it means that if you have an external card that is specced much higher than the stock internal flash you could eliminate the issue completely.
But of course that is really hacky. It's one of those you could brick if you don't install it right kind of deals so I don't ever see it being a mainstream options for these tabs unless ASUS productized it which would be a big expense in support for them, so, again, it'll never happen.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, again (and I now added to opening post) my point is not denying IO hardware issue existence. I am just simply providing proof here that it can be improved by software (to certain degree). Whether it is to the extent of users complete satisfaction would be different issue. However, to be honest, if you see my video and it was original retail packaged Infinity fully on stock and from the day 1 performance, don't you think less people would raise a voice? It's because software workaround can change what you see as user, and that's all I am proving here. So yes. this should give a hope to someone who thought, it's hardware related so never can be fixed. However, this does not confirm or deny ASUS to take a step and fix this because I am sure it will take some effort on their part, which clearly they have not spent so far if this had been a problem existed since TF201.
To put into extreme, they can modify OS such that all front end basic programs such as stock browser, movie player or whatever to actually run on RAM if that is what makes the difference. But would they do it? Absolute not, because they won't spend money on such big project for device that had already sold well and gained essentially best Android tablet metacritic reviews (I did not take actual poll but just following Infinity news daily, it seems like pretty much most site gives the highest score for android tablet).
So yup. I don't disagree with you guys that IO issue there. But my point here was to help people clarify that there are indeed ways to make better by software. Whether happens or not is out of my control and would simply be guess for anyone.

I'm not just a noob either. Here's why I think this is software related:
1) The performance is so bad that it precludes just the hardware. Maybe the hardware sucks but there is alot of performance lost somewhere cheap NAND from 2 years ago outperforms SQLite operations by >10x.
2) Performance seems to degrade with time. This is indictive of a wear leveling and writing algorithm which may or may not be able to be adjusted with firmware.
3) SQLite fsync performance appears to be tied to T3 frequency, that suggest there is something with the T3 drivers that could be tweaked vs NAND hardware limitations.
4)...
I'll also mention the OP is right. ASUS could do things with caching data before writing, and writing in chunks the NAND is best with limiting Virtual Ram etc.

HoushaSen said:
Hi Einride,
Sorry if I directed you wrong way. But my point here is not to prove stock has already fixed issue or not even to say IO issue can be completely fixed. The latter is simply unknown. But I am just proving here that there are ways software can make difference in user front, which some people questions.
To be honest, how do you even know RAM is not bottle neck? What about GPU, which is far inferior to the new Ipad in fact its even worth than iPad 2 by far margin? We see a number, and see its less than others so concluded its the conundrum, which could be true by good chance but not a proof.
Here I am basically proved whatever the method is, there is a way to improve what people call IO issue can be alleviated by software approach.
Because Anandtech showed IO issue originally on infinity stating background 2MBps download resulted in marked degradation in browser performance. I basically had 1GB file transfer over WIFI using Airdroid.
So I basically proved here that my infinity, which clearly has not touched anything on hardwarewise, but have improved performance since Anandtech review.
As for Zeus fsync, I don't use Zeus so cannot speak for it. But if they turn off fsync and still keep the system stable without data loss, why would you care?
Having said all this, I don't know if ASUS will ever put effort in fixing issue because if they would why won't they simply install browser2ram as part of their firmware? But they are doing something as I noticed they took out pixit from background with latest firmware, which kept running in background for no reason..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No misleading here, don't worry
You are just describing software workarounds, though. None of which can permanently fix it entirely since it's a hardware limitation.
A proper "fix" would greatly increase I/O performance with no downsides. Browser2ram helps browsing, nothing else. Disabling SQLite fsyncs increases risk of data corruption or data loss at the cost of better overall performance.
Sent from my ASUS Transformer Pad TF700T using Tapatalk 2

tf201 said:
I'm not just a noob either. Here's why I think this is software related:
1) The performance is so bad that it precludes just the hardware. Maybe the hardware sucks but there is alot of performance lost somewhere cheap NAND from 2 years ago outperforms SQLite operations by >10x.
2) Performance seems to degrade with time. This is indictive of a wear leveling and writing algorithm which may or may not be able to be adjusted with firmware.
3) SQLite fsync performance appears to be tied to T3 frequency, that suggest there is something with the T3 drivers that could be tweaked vs NAND hardware limitations.
4)...
I'll also mention the OP is right. ASUS could do things with caching data before writing, and writing in chunks the NAND is best with limiting Virtual Ram etc.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree that they can probably make improvements with these kind of tweaks. The extent of the fix will always be limited by the low spec hardware in the end, though. So, I wouldn't encourage people to expect ginormous strides. For the most part, I expect more of the same with some evolutionary improvements but I doubt they will ever make a quantum leap. I would be angry if they made it worse but I'm an optimist at heart so I at least expect some slow improvement over time.
IMHO, as it stands it is usable and I'm hoping they can take it to "decent" (say the level pepole are seeing in Zeus). But to folks who are banging their heads against this constantly and unsatisfied as a result, I would still say there will be no true fix and you should bail on this device. It's a personal choice.
If you are willing to forgo your warrantly, I guess you could demo one of the custom ROMs. That probably shows you the extent of a software fix. But beware some of those fixes (cached writes) do put data integrity at risk. There is always a trade off.

Einride said:
Disabling SQLite fsyncs increases risk of data corruption or data loss at the cost of better overall performance.
Sent from my ASUS Transformer Pad TF700T using Tapatalk 2
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If I understand the fsync thing correctly it can only cause issues if the device suddenly powers off, correct? While that may be a risk, it's a *very* small risk and well worth the performance improvement, in my opinion... I've used ROMs that disable fsync for quite some time and have never had a single issue...
I tend to go by real-world results instead of "theory"...
Same thing with "browser2ram" - it can only cause an issue if the device suddenly powers off and even then - so you lose some web cache data - so what?? Who cares if you lose your browser cache - it's just a browser cache!
Besides, if your device is powering off suddenly, you have much bigger problems than worrying about your cached web data!
I truly agree with the OP. People get so caught up on benchmarks and "what could happen" (even though in practice, it really doesn't)... Truth is, we all just want a better end-user experience - if they can "work around" hardware limitations via software then it makes sense to do that.
Obviously, the hardware isn't going to change, so complaining about that will never help whereas implementing software tweaks to work-around these hardware limitations *does* actually help...
Just my two cents!
By the way, I've been *very* happy with the performance of my TF700 since installing the Zeus ROM - another perfect of example of someone using software to get around the hardware limitations - and it works very well! Another example of "real world" results - that's all of the evidence that I need!
Sent from my ASUS Transformer Pad TF700T using Tapatalk 2

Unfortunately random reboots are not simply theory in case of the Infinity, especially if you're doing some memory-aggravating stuff on yours. I'm getting one every few days.

d14b0ll0s said:
Unfortunately random reboots are not simply theory in case of the Infinity, especially if you're doing some memory-aggravating stuff on yours. I'm getting one every few days.
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Click to collapse
While I agree that random reboots are not simply theory, what does that have to do with what we are talking about here?
However, since you brought it up, I've personally never had a single random reboot on my TF700, which may be yet another example that most of this stuff can be fixed by software (since that does not occur on Zeus ROM)... So that just goes further to illustrate my point. I'm assuming that you are not running Zeus?
Sent from my ASUS Transformer Pad TF700T using Tapatalk 2

jtrosky said:
another example that most of this stuff can be fixed by software (since that does not occur on Zeus ROM.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is from the Quadrant thread. The rest of the conversation describing what SQLite is and the role it plays in overall IO performance is in that thread. All Zeus' ROM does is tweak the SQLite settings and if you read more in the other thread you'll understand why that plays a relatively minor role in overall IO performance. Bottom line is whether or not someone has memory and/or IO issues is more determined by what they do with their device than the s/w running on it. Which is why some people running stock are perfectly content while others are pulling their hair out.
P.S. - Sorry HoushaSen, the lack of information on what SQLite is and the obsession with Quadrant brought me back in to the discussion.
BarryH_GEG said:
To show you what Zeus' impact is, here's a comparison to a Note and TF300 on JB. Red is perecent slower than the Note, green faster. After tweaking SQLite, the remainder of the TF700's IO scores remain significantly below that of the Note (or SGS3 or One X) and some are worse than stock. If you use the TF300 on JB as a proxy for how the TF700 would perform after the update the column on the far right shows the difference between the two.
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Click to collapse

Wait until you see Zeus on Jelly Been. It's going to be so smooth and snappy and you will never think about I/O issue again!!!!

BarryH_GEG said:
This is from the Quadrant thread. The rest of the conversation describing what SQLite is and the role it plays in overall IO performance is in that thread. All Zeus' ROM does is tweak the SQLite settings and if you read more in the other thread you'll understand why that plays a relatively minor role in overall IO performance. Bottom line is whether or not someone has memory and/or IO issues is more determined by what they do with their device than the s/w running on it. Which is why some people running stock are perfectly content while others are pulling their hair out.
P.S. - Sorry HoushaSen, the lack of information on what SQLite is and the obsession with Quadrant brought me back in to the discussion.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No problem. In the end this is still gray zone that (at least in my opinion) nobody knows what the end result is, and I think you stated well. It's really depends on user experience.
For those missed my last couple line update on opening thread. I actually had 1.1GB file download going on my infinity, and launched FF3 game, which was a breeze. No lag. So IO issue had been fixed partly from original already (assuming IO was really poor from get go, but I cannot confirm this because I do not have original firmware, and did not play FF3 when I had one). But I definitely noticed significantly far less ANR, which was one major reason I originally returned my infinity and hesitant to come back from Galaxy Note 10.1. However, if I launch Horn instead of FF3, it takes forever and even got ANR, which I hadn't seen for a while on my Infinity. Whether this is related IO or memory cap of 1GB or some other internal limitation is unknown, but since all I had was AirDroid transferring file and Horn is only other thing running, I am assuming 1GB is sufficient; hence, most likely related to IO issue. But having said this, how many would really complain about this? Not sure. Because even on my PC (which is not that high end) but I can basically get same issue. If I encode video and try to run high graphic PC game, the machine stalls, and even gives freeze. Would everyone complain about this? Some would and say that's why you get better PC. The other accepts it is what is, and simply don't encode, and play high end game at same time.
I am pretty satisfied with Infinity as all the concern I had before coming back to Infinity from Note seemed to be solved (at least for me) and got back to Full HD screen; however, there are clearly still people out there concerned of IO performance thus the topic continues to arise. Once everyone gets satisfactory IO result, I believe we will see significantly less discussion about this (if ever happens).
The fact we know are:
1. IO hardware on Infinity is last generation and not as fast as main stream current generation expensive tablets.
2. Software can change what user see (whole point my this particular thread)
Fact nobody knows
1. Degree of how much software can change user experience. Whether enough to completely hide relatively poor performance of underlying IO hardware. Or opposite extreme is basically just soften up a little without true effect on most users.
2. Whether ASUS will even try fixing it.
Benchmark number is great to assess, but I really don't think that's what users are really interested unless someone who just want to say "hey my benchmark score is high!" If this is the case, nobody probably would ever get Apple because they are usually not after benchmark of individual component but rather they use decent hardware, minimize bottleneck by deciding all the hardware on their own, and write optimized OS. But individual pieces are not cutting edge for its price.
And in all honest, I am a bit lost at this point after writing this thread, what is it exactly that we are calling IO issue? Browser2Ram improved my browser speed but even Final Fantasy 3 runs fine from launch while I download a big file at its maximum speed. So I don't think it's browser2ram that did trick here, but rather ASUS already fixed IO issue for downloading file completely hogs the system. If the issue is slow stock browser, that may not be IO related. It may simply be ASUS did not optimize the stock browser. Maybe my system runs so well because I have turned all the bloatware off and many stock user aren't?

I don't see Browser2ram in the store. Got a link?
Sent from my Rooted TF700T

i wish i saw this thread before i bought my Infinity + screen protector + case.
hope that JB will help with some of this, but i didn't realize it was just cheap-ass NAND.
ugh.

xPSYCHOTRONx said:
I don't see Browser2ram in the store. Got a link?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
http://mark-tech.blogspot.com/2012/06/browser2ram-fixes-transformer-prime.html

Looks like the MemoPad Smart 10 fixes the slow I/O issues

Looks like the Asus MemoPad Smart 10 fixes the crappy NAND issues.
http://cdn.androidpolice.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/nexusae0_Screenshot_2013-03-04-15-57-55.jpg
Of course, the real issue with all ASUS tablets up to this point has been the storage read/write speed. Everything may seem to be fine, but when it comes to any write-intensive task – like installing apps, for example – the device slows to a crawl. While I haven't experienced that issue on the MeMO in the same magnitude that I have with other ASUS tablets (most Androbench scores nearly doubled that of the TF300), there was a hint of slowdown while updating apps. It's hard to say whether or not that issue will worsen with time, but it's definitely something to consider.
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Source (Android Police)
And there's storage speed, the bane of Asus' existence. Asus Transformer Android tablets have notoriously slow internal storage. We'd hoped that Asus had improved this, since they generally respond quickly to customer feedback. The good news is that its internal storage is twice as fast as the Asus Transformer Pad TF300. The bad news is that the MeMO Pad Smart 10 benchmarks at less than half the speed of the competing Google Nexus 10 in the AndroBench benchmark that measures storage performance. We no longer see the "wait or force close" dialogs as we did with prior Asus Transformer tablets, but apps like Real Racing 3 that load a significant amount of data from internal storage do take noticeably longer to load when compared to the speedy Nexus 10.
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Click to collapse
(Source - MobileTechReview)

Well, they seem to have amended it a bit, but I would not call this "fixing" an issue.
If we fixed the patients like this where I work, we'd be out of a job in months, and if the method had any significant rate of adaptation world-wide, Nature would finally have a change to recuperate in a few years, and we would see a new primary species on our little planet. No more greenhouse effect, no more wars, lots of living space and food for everyone. Just no (interindividual) sex for lack of human company -- hand blistering treatment kits would make you millions of then-worthless $$$.

mr.fast said:
Looks like the Asus MemoPad Smart 10 fixes the crappy NAND issues.
http://cdn.androidpolice.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/nexusae0_Screenshot_2013-03-04-15-57-55.jpg
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Click to collapse
Any idea why my androbench reads 359MB/s for random write?

sure but the memopad doesn't come with an FullHD display and only a 1.2/1.3ghz clocked Tegra 3.
So it's just a slightly better TF300T without keyboard dock. Or just a bigger Nexus 7.
And also, there is atm no way to unlock the bootloader to install a CFW.

ronniereiff said:
Any idea why my androbench reads 359MB/s for random write?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You have disabled fsync and are benchmarking your RAM instead of the storage.

_that said:
You have disabled fsync and are benchmarking your RAM instead of the storage.
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Click to collapse
I try to test SD card but it crashes, is it because of fsynce.

test /sdcard not external sd.
better remove your external sdcard to make sure.

is anyone having any audio playback issues with their memo pad?
when streaming HD video from iPlayer or youtube etc, the audio is out of sync for me, which is really annoying!

For me, the ultimate test in this regard is how much lag is created while trying to run a torrent. And as far as i can tell, th MeMo can do just fine there.I'mtesting out store models right now and the MeMO feels snappier by far in Balanced mode than the Transformer 700 on Performance. Which is somewhatunderstandable but areal pity given the specs. Ithought the faster processor onthe TF700 would compensate for sure.

NAND Replacement for the TF700

This was a PM for @timduru but it wouldn't send.. So here it is for anyone and everyone that can help.
I'm thinking of replacing the nand on the tf700.. Can you help me source the right pin compatible chip? .. I don't have big plans for the tab, I only use it to read books and watch movies.. But the lag bugs me and I want to attempt the chip replacement job. I'm totally clueless as to the fastest chip that could be supported with the right pin configuration.
But I'm hopeful i could drop something beastly and perhaps give it a ram upgrade if the RAM is a separate and easily source-able chip.
I believe the fastboot mode along with the saved "wheeler" blobs will enable me write firmware and start the tablet with the blank new chip.
If I'm successful, i could do the same for other members who want to keep the development of the tab going(with them sharing the risk of failure/I'm not an idiot, but a botched solder job is possible) .. So that we can have one last stable ROM until the eventual death of the tab.
Thank you,

Please keep us updated on what you find out. I am still addicted to this tablet and use both the 700 and the 201 (for different functions of course!) I would also be curious about battery options out there..

Chip Replacement for the TF700
I'm thinking of replacing the nand on the tf700.. Can you help me source the right pin compatible chip? .. I don't have big plans for the tab, I only use it to read books and watch movies.. But the lag bugs me and I want to attempt the chip replacement job. I'm totally clueless as to the fastest chip that could be supported with the right pin configuration.
But I'm hopeful i could drop something beastly and perhaps give it a ram upgrade if the RAM is a separate and easily source-able chip.
I believe the fastboot mode along with the saved "wheeler" blobs will enable me write firmware and start the tablet with the blank new chip.
If I'm successful, i could do the same for other members who want to keep the development of the tab going(with them sharing the risk of failure/I'm not an idiot, but a botched solder job is possible) .. So that we can have one last stable ROM until the eventual death of the tab.
Thank you,[/QUOTE]
Hi,
once I started going about it as well and found Elpida EDJ4216EFBG in our unit to seem very similar to the Samsung K4B2G1646C ddr3 chip.
Pinout seems very close except for T7 which is not connected in elpida but its an address pin A14 in samsung I do not know the implications had these chips to be interchanged. Also the ram in my unit is a hynix. Good Luck.

evimarn said:
Hi,
once I started going about it as well and found Elpida EDJ4216EFBG in our unit to seem very similar to the Samsung K4B2G1646C ddr3 chip.
Pinout seems very close except for T7 which is not connected in elpida but its an address pin A14 in samsung I do not know the implications had these chips to be interchanged. Also the ram in my unit is a hynix. Good Luck.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'll look into the ram when I get the chance.. I was hoping that the pinouts are standard.. I don't think that data lines are redundant in general.. We'll have to ask around or try it for ourselves.
You don't happen to already know any super fast NAND chips with the same pinouts or even the mmc versions supported by the tegra?
Can you PM me the datasheets?

If you manage to pull this off, you will all be my heroes.

PortableTech said:
If you manage to pull this off, you will all be my heroes.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm a dentist.. I'm looking for someone to do the heavy technical work because searching for these things even with my knowledge is hard.. I'm sure there are ways for design that are learned in engineering school or on the job that I'm not ever going to learn...
The work with steady hands can be left to me.. I already have a few super hard reballing feats under my belt.
I'm really puzzled as how to approach this..
I will go through my library and find you the NAND datasheet as I've downloaded it years ago.
I guess i will start at digi-key and mouser and see what happens.
Wish me luck.

AbdouRetro said:
I'll look into the ram when I get the chance.. I was hoping that the pinouts are standard.. I don't think that data lines are redundant in general.. We'll have to ask around or try it for ourselves.
You don't happen to already know any super fast NAND chips with the same pinouts or even the mmc versions supported by the tegra?
Can you PM me the datasheets?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Basically if memory serves me right the samsung are the best bet.

Android 2tb external drive limit workaround

I know Android has 2tb limit when it comes to external drives. You can work around filesystem, drives and whatnot, but that size limit seems to be unavoidable.
Having several drives larger than 2tb I'd like to be able to access to them, at least to read them. Is there no way at all to do it?
Partitioning IS NOT AN OPTION, the drive is in a single partition because Windows sees it just fine and has to be like that. I know you can partition it in smaller size, but that's just not what i'm looking for. I mean even Apple can do it with their iPads, why Android still has that 2tb limit?

NaXter24R said:
I know Android has 2tb limit when it comes to external drives. You can work around filesystem, drives and whatnot, but that size limit seems to be unavoidable.
Having several drives larger than 2tb I'd like to be able to access to them, at least to read them. Is there no way at all to do it?
Partitioning IS NOT AN OPTION, the drive is in a single partition because Windows sees it just fine and has to be like that. I know you can partition it in smaller size, but that's just not what i'm looking for. I mean even Apple can do it with their iPads, why Android still has that 2tb limit?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If possible, this would have to be achieved by building your own custom kernel for your device with support for whatever size external drive you want. Building your own kernel requires building it from source, if the manufacturer of your device has not released a kernel source code for your device, you will not be able to build a custom kernel for your device. You can't achieve what you want by modifying/editing system files or adding additional software or apps. You can't achieve this by editing your device's stock kernel either. Adding features to a kernel requires adding them in the kernel building process, they can't be added by editing a kernel that already exists.
The kernel connects your hardware with your software and controls how your software uses your hardware. This is why you have to build a new kernel in order for your software to be able to use your hardware in a different way than it was designed to do.
If you don't know how to build a custom kernel, you will have to give up on your idea or buy a device that does support larger external drives. No, I don't know how to build a kernel and I'm not linking you to any guides because there are none that are comprehensive enough for you to do this from start to finish. You will have to do some Google searching and learn the process for yourself by trial and error until you get it right. Be warned, you could very easily brick the device and make it unuseable and unrepairable if you do not build the kernel correctly.

Droidriven said:
If possible, this would have to be achieved by building your own custom kernel for your device with support for whatever size external drive you want. Building your own kernel requires building it from source, if the manufacturer of your device has not released a kernel source code for your device, you will not be able to build a custom kernel for your device. You can't achieve what you want by modifying/editing system files or adding additional software or apps. You can't achieve this by editing your device's stock kernel either. Adding features to a kernel requires adding them in the kernel building process, they can't be added by editing a kernel that already exists.
The kernel connects your hardware with your software and controls how your software uses your hardware. This is why you have to build a new kernel in order for your software to be able to use your hardware in a different way than it was designed to do.
If you don't know how to build a custom kernel, you will have to give up on your idea or buy a device that does support larger external drives. No, I don't know how to build a kernel and I'm not linking you to any guides because there are none that are comprehensive enough for you to do this from start to finish. You will have to do some Google searching and learn the process for yourself by trial and error until you get it right. Be warned, you could very easily brick the device and make it unuseable and unrepairable if you do not build the kernel correctly.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I imagine that unfortunately.
I find it sto stupid that even Apple with iPadOS has better support for something that, in 2022, should be so obvious. I mean, drives larger than 2tb are a thing, and with stuff like USB hub and Samsung DEX using drives bigger than 2tb seems something that people could easily encounter.
But I also think this is some android limit, but I haven't dug too deep to find that out. There is so little online that is hard to understand why there is such limit.
I would be happy to use my tablet as a laptop replacement, but having to adapt my hdd choice seems stupid to me.

NaXter24R said:
I imagine that unfortunately.
I find it sto stupid that even Apple with iPadOS has better support for something that, in 2022, should be so obvious. I mean, drives larger than 2tb are a thing, and with stuff like USB hub and Samsung DEX using drives bigger than 2tb seems something that people could easily encounter.
But I also think this is some android limit, but I haven't dug too deep to find that out. There is so little online that is hard to understand why there is such limit.
I would be happy to use my tablet as a laptop replacement, but having to adapt my hdd choice seems stupid to me.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes, but mobile devices are not powerful machines like PC. Also, drives of that size require power, they are typically powered by the device they are connected to. That means adding unnecessary power drain on a mobile device, it would severely reduce battery life. They don't design them to use larger drives because it just isn't a smart or reasonable alternative, they assume the user is reasonable enough to understand that using a laptop or PC for that purpose is the better solution for using large drives. It is more reasonable to use those drives with a laptop or PC because they are more capable of powering drives of that size without excessive battery drain.
Just because iPad "can" use large drives, doesn't mean it is good at it or that it is an intelligent solution. It is just a selling point, not really a bonus or good thing.
There are no tablets on the market that are capable of effectively being used as a laptop replacement, they will never be able to perform at the level that laptop and desktop does. It isn't an android limitation, it is a technological limitation. The reason is because it is extremely hard to build a compact device with large amounts of processing power, large power capacity and intensive power usage because these factors generate a lot of heat, heat that compact devices can't handle or dissipate without throttling or slowing down performance. Which equals, it just isn't effectively reasonable.

Droidriven said:
Yes, but mobile devices are not powerful machines like PC. Also, drives of that size require power, they are typically powered by the device they are connected to. That means adding unnecessary power drain on a mobile device, it would severely reduce battery life. They don't design them to use larger drives because it just isn't a smart or reasonable alternative, they assume the user is reasonable enough to understand that using a laptop or PC for that purpose is the better solution for using large drives. It is more reasonable to use those drives with a laptop or PC because they are more capable of powering drives of that size without excessive battery drain.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Power is not an issue. There are hubs. If i can hook stuff to a tablet and use it as a desktop replacement when i'm traveling, I don't see why I can't use an external drive. Moreover, a 1tb drive use the same power as a 4tb one. They're both USB. Is a sw thing, not hw. Sure there are some device without enough power to start the drive, but almost any decent tablet can do it. Plus, as I said, Apple does it with their iPad Pros. Also, I could be using an external powered drive, is just a USB cable.
Just because iPad "can" use large drives, doesn't mean it is good at it or that it is an intelligent solution. It is just a selling point, not really a bonus or good thing.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
On the contrary, I have a perfectly capable device of taking advantage of an external drive, and i'm limited by the OS. And the joke is that such OS is Android which loses against Apple in this case. As I said, i think is a joke I'm able to use something like Samsung DEX and not being able to access a drive just because is bigger than 2tb.
A missing feature is a missing feature.
There are no tablets on the market that are capable of effectively being used as a laptop replacement, they will never be able to perform at the level that laptop and desktop does. It isn't an android limitation, it is a technological limitation. The reason is because it is extremely hard to build a compact device with large amounts of processing power, large power capacity and intensive power usage because these factors generate a lot of heat, heat that compact devices can't handle or dissipate without throttling or slowing down performance. Which equals, it just isn't effectively reasonable.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Again, what if I have to dump footages and media from my device to some external device? Do I need to carry a laptop in order to do that when a tablet would be perfectly capable of doing it? Again, is a sw issue, not hw. I can edit a video on a laptop or on a tablet just in the same way. That has nothing to do with power. This is an outdated thing that limits some user for no apparent reason (i'm sure there is, and I'm sure is some outdated thing from the past).
I mean, I can use other filesystem, why the heck would I have to be limited by the size of an external drive?

NaXter24R said:
Power is not an issue. There are hubs. If i can hook stuff to a tablet and use it as a desktop replacement when i'm traveling, I don't see why I can't use an external drive. Moreover, a 1tb drive use the same power as a 4tb one. They're both USB. Is a sw thing, not hw. Sure there are some device without enough power to start the drive, but almost any decent tablet can do it. Plus, as I said, Apple does it with their iPad Pros. Also, I could be using an external powered drive, is just a USB cable.
On the contrary, I have a perfectly capable device of taking advantage of an external drive, and i'm limited by the OS. And the joke is that such OS is Android which loses against Apple in this case. As I said, i think is a joke I'm able to use something like Samsung DEX and not being able to access a drive just because is bigger than 2tb.
A missing feature is a missing feature.
Again, what if I have to dump footages and media from my device to some external device? Do I need to carry a laptop in order to do that when a tablet would be perfectly capable of doing it? Again, is a sw issue, not hw. I can edit a video on a laptop or on a tablet just in the same way. That has nothing to do with power. This is an outdated thing that limits some user for no apparent reason (i'm sure there is, and I'm sure is some outdated thing from the past).
I mean, I can use other filesystem, why the heck would I have to be limited by the size of an external drive?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You can disagree if you want, but, it doesn't change the fact that power usage and heat generation ARE the reasons why.
I didn't say that a tablet couldn't use large drives and I didn't say that a tablet couldn't do the things you described. I said that they are not reasonably effective tools for those purposes, which is why there is no focus on building them for those purposes.
A lot of the things that you want to use the tablet for are actually intensive activities. Video editing, for example, depending on the video and the kind of editing that you do, tends to be intensive and can be long duration processes, the more RAM and more processing power, and the more battery life, the better, which is why laptop and PC are better suited for these purposes. Sure, some tablets can do it, but in reality, they just aren't completely up to the task, especially in the long term.
When I said, large drives, I meant drives larger than the device has on-board. It had nothing to do with 1TB vs 2TB vs 4TB.
To give you a metaphor, a mechanic has to choose the best tool for the job, why purposefully choose to use a lesser tool when a better tool already exists?
Power usage, performance and heat generation are the 3 main things taken into account when designing compact devices all of which are increased by the kinds of activities you are discussing.
But, I know I'm wasting my time trying to use logic with you when all you are focused on is your own personal convenience.

Droidriven said:
You can disagree if you want, but, it doesn't change the fact that power usage and heat generation ARE the reasons why.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sorry but I strongly disagree.
Power is the same. The exact same. A 2.5" 500gb use the same power as a 2.5" 4tb drive. Heat is the same as well since the specs are very much the same beside space.
Droidriven said:
I didn't say that a tablet couldn't use large drives and I didn't say that a tablet couldn't do the things you described. I said that they are not reasonably effective tools for those purposes, which is why there is no focus on building them for those purposes.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It might be, but I see this as a lack of foresight. That 2tb limit is a sw thing. The drive is perfectly seen and recognized, but the space is not. This is why you can partition a 16tb drive in 8 2tb partitions and see them all.
Droidriven said:
A lot of the things that you want to use the tablet for are actually intensive activities. Video editing, for example, depending on the video and the kind of editing that you do, tends to be intensive and can be long duration processes, the more RAM and more processing power, and the more battery life, the better, which is why laptop and PC are better suited for these purposes. Sure, some tablets can do it, but in reality, they just aren't completely up to the task, especially in the long term.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I know, but they're designed to do that. I'm not doing anything weird, the manufacturer expects me to do it. And i'm doing it there because in some case is better to bring a tablet than a laptop. Is that simple.
Is like buying a car and having the air conditioning not working past 35° ambient temperature because "is a bit too hot".
I think Google forgot about it since there isn't that much audience for that, but is actually becoming an issue. Media use a ton of space and larger drives are a thing.
being able to access something via OTG was one of they key features of android and now is a limit. Even Apple do this better now.
Droidriven said:
When I said, large drives, I meant drives larger than the device has on-board. It had nothing to do with 1TB vs 2TB vs 4TB.
To give you a metaphor, a mechanic has to choose the best tool for the job, why purposefully choose to use a lesser tool when a better tool already exists?
Power usage, performance and heat generation are the 3 main things taken into account when designing compact devices all of which are increased by the kinds of activities you are discussing.
But, I know I'm wasting my time trying to use logic with you when all you are focused on is your own personal convenience.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Is not about personal convenience. The drive use the same exact power. Simple as that. Is a 5v 900mA USB drive. This is true vor every USB drive. SSD, HDD, anything.
As I said, is a sw thing so whatever you said about hw and power is straight up false.
What I asked is why there is in 2022 this limit and if there is a way to avoid it, since is a SW limit. Especially now with Google TV I don't understand understand they have this limit. Even Chrome OS doesn't have that.
About your example, this is not a better tool. This is a lack of a tool.

NaXter24R said:
Sorry but I strongly disagree.
Power is the same. The exact same. A 2.5" 500gb use the same power as a 2.5" 4tb drive. Heat is the same as well since the specs are very much the same beside space.
It might be, but I see this as a lack of foresight. That 2tb limit is a sw thing. The drive is perfectly seen and recognized, but the space is not. This is why you can partition a 16tb drive in 8 2tb partitions and see them all.
I know, but they're designed to do that. I'm not doing anything weird, the manufacturer expects me to do it. And i'm doing it there because in some case is better to bring a tablet than a laptop. Is that simple.
Is like buying a car and having the air conditioning not working past 35° ambient temperature because "is a bit too hot".
I think Google forgot about it since there isn't that much audience for that, but is actually becoming an issue. Media use a ton of space and larger drives are a thing.
being able to access something via OTG was one of they key features of android and now is a limit. Even Apple do this better now.
Is not about personal convenience. The drive use the same exact power. Simple as that. Is a 5v 900mA USB drive. This is true vor every USB drive. SSD, HDD, anything.
As I said, is a sw thing so whatever you said about hw and power is straight up false.
What I asked is why there is in 2022 this limit and if there is a way to avoid it, since is a SW limit. Especially now with Google TV I don't understand understand they have this limit. Even Chrome OS doesn't have that.
About your example, this is not a better tool. This is a lack of a tool.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
As I already said, it has nothing to do with how much power a 2TB drive uses compared to a 4TB drive. When engineers design devices, it is designed with the intent that the battery should be big enough to power the device itself and its own internal hardware for a certain period of time. Being able to power the device itself and also power external hardware while also having the battery to last the intended period of time means that a larger battery must be used in order to power the extra hardware without reducing how long the device can operate, this effects the size of the device this effects hardware design, this effects software design, these factors effect the costs of design and manufacture of the device(which get passed to the user). To power extra hardware means larger battery, which effects overall size of the device, amout of space to fit the other hardware inside the device, where and how each component is positioned without interfering, where heat is generated and how it is dissipated.
The heat I was referring to was heat generated inside the tablet by the "extra" activity of powering the external device and the extra load on the processor and performance loss due to operating over USB. More work means more heat, period, its a law.
Besides, the larger majority of users don't use tablets for the kinds of things you're talking about. This also comes into play when designing a device, why should they add a feature to suit a small demographic?
I'm giving you real world reasons why it isn't done from an engineering perspective.
You are giving me reasons why it "should" be done from a user perspective.
The engineering/cost perspective comes first because that is where the rubber meets the road, user perspective comes last.
If an engineer were to design a device for the express purposes that you have discussed, I can promise you that it wouldn't be a small, compact thing like a tablet.
There are plenty of powerful slim laptops that are comparable in size to some tablets and they can do the job better, for longer than a tablet can.
Do you think the average user would choose a device with less performance that has to be charged more often in order to be used the way you are describing? Or do you think the average user would choose a device that is better suited to the task and doesn't have to be charged as often?

Droidriven said:
As I already said, it has nothing to do with how much power a 2TB drive uses compared to a 4TB drive. When engineers design devices, it is designed with the intent that the battery should be big enough to power the device itself and its own internal hardware for a certain period of time. Being able to power the device itself and also power external hardware while also having the battery to last the intended period of time means that a larger battery must be used in order to power the extra hardware without reducing how long the device can operate, this effects the size of the device this effects hardware design, this effects software design, these factors effect the costs of design and manufacture of the device(which get passed to the user). To power extra hardware means larger battery, which effects overall size of the device, amout of space to fit the other hardware inside the device, where and how each component is positioned without interfering, where heat is generated and how it is dissipated.
The heat I was referring to was heat generated inside the tablet by the "extra" activity of powering the external device and the extra load on the processor and performance loss due to operating over USB. More work means more heat, period, its a law.
Besides, the larger majority of users don't use tablets for the kinds of things you're talking about. This also comes into play when designing a device, why should they add a feature to suit a small demographic?
I'm giving you real world reasons why it isn't done from an engineering perspective.
You are giving me reasons why it "should" be done from a user perspective.
The engineering/cost perspective comes first because that is where the rubber meets the road, user perspective comes last.
If an engineer were to design a device for the express purposes that you have discussed, I can promise you that it wouldn't be a small, compact thing like a tablet.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What I'm saying is that most device can ALREADY POWER external HDD just fine. Basically any decent tablet which is not a cheap one can do it, easily. The only limit is the size. This has nothing to do with engineers, or power or whatever. They already went throgut that and we already have this feature. What is lacking now is support to bigger drives due to some lazyness I think.
Now, as I said there is already support to other filesystem, so you're free to use the same storage on different platforms, and, digging a bit: I've found this.
Also there is some interesting stuff about Android TV. Apparently you need to format through the OS in order to use it. I guess it would be ext4 or something like that, but still, playback and recording limit is way higher.
Also, digging more it seems that it is possible, although a bit messy. It works like 50% of the time for some reason, but it is possible. Is not native tho. This is what i'm complaining for.