Database Info

If you're wondering about dual core....

I was a little iffy with getting a single core phone until I saw this. Kind of cool. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5OGlCDskA0&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Sent from my ADR6400L using XDA Premium App

I am the first to admit I know very little about this stuff, but IMO this comparison is crap! He's showing the advantage of 4G LTE, not the processor ... downloading apps and loading webpages/videos has more to do with the connectivity then the processor. He should have run quadrant or linpack, then I bet the dual core would have had the advantage.
Again, just my opinion ... and I am not a tech wiz by any means

YankInDaSouth said:
I am the first to admit I know very little about this stuff, but IMO this comparison is crap! He's showing the advantage of 4G LTE, not the processor ... downloading apps and loading webpages/videos has more to do with the connectivity then the processor. He should have run quadrant or linpack, then I bet the dual core would have had the advantage.
Again, just my opinion ... and I am not a tech wiz by any means
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
A valid argument, but benchmarks are for the most part illegitimate. Having the synergy of components from the same manufacturer are more beneficial in real world usage.
Sent from my ADR6400L using XDA Premium App

I would like to see a comparison of the same apps running side by side...
We all know that Wifi vs LTE vs HSPA+ vs EVDO Rev A can/will impact downloads/uploads.
Single Core vs Dual Core is about "local" or "on device" performance. i.e. Once the data or App is ON THE DEVICE...
While talking about Single Core vs Dual Core on Android devices, a question comes to my mind.... (My mind is a little fuzzy, because I thought I saw this talked about before, but I can't find where..)
What version of Android added support for Dual Core chips? This article -> http://www.slashgear.com/gingerbrea...-in-april-for-dual-core-app-support-07131280/ would make me believe that Android 2.2.x doesn't support dual core... (so it would be kind of like Windows initially, where the OS didn't natively support the additional cores, so while having them "helped" a little, you didn't completely see that impact until windows was updated).
Does the same hold true with the Dual Core Android phones that ship with Froyo (like the Droid X2, Atrix, etc.)? i.e. their OS doesn't fully support the dual core, so until they get an OS that does, their not going to see as much of a performance boost?

YankInDaSouth said:
He's showing the advantage of 4G LTE, not the processor ... downloading apps and loading webpages/videos has more to do with the connectivity then the processor.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
+1
If both phones were on the same LTE network or wifi, they would perform similarly
Sent from my ADR6400L using XDA App

KidJoe said:
What version of Android added support for Dual Core chips? This article -> http://www.slashgear.com/gingerbrea...-in-april-for-dual-core-app-support-07131280/ would make me believe that Android 2.2.x doesn't support dual core... (so it would be kind of like Windows initially, where the OS didn't natively support the additional cores, so while having them "helped" a little, you didn't completely see that impact until windows was updated).
Does the same hold true with the Dual Core Android phones that ship with Froyo (like the Droid X2, Atrix, etc.)? i.e. their OS doesn't fully support the dual core, so until they get an OS that does, their not going to see as much of a performance boost?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Good question!

[INFO] Benchmark results

Hi
I've been testing and comparing some of the top candidates og android phones on the market now.
The competitors are: Samsung Galaxy SII, Lg Optimus 2x (CM7) and HTC Sensation
And I must say, I'm pretty disappointed with HTC Sensation so far. Don't know if I'm just unlucky, or if we should expect an update on this in the future, but the GPU is way behind in comparison to the two others.
www.antutu.com benchmark results:
4578 - Samsung Galaxy SII
4456 - LG Optimus 2x
3758 - HTC Sensation
Goint through the details, the most worrying is HTC Sensation scores low on 2d/3d graphics, about half of what LG Optimus 2x scores, which is the winner, with a total of 297 + 350 in graphics. Sensation scores about 300 in total.
Qaudrant benchmark goes like this:
3678 - Samsung Galaxy SII
3120 - LG optimus 2x
2170 - HTC Sensation
Basically Samsung wins because of scoring higher on both CPU and memory (1gb ram)
LG Optimus 2x got he best GPU and Database IO (data transfer rate)
HTC Sensation is just way behind
What is your results? Is it just me, or could we hope for an update?
I have heard rumors about HTC Sensation only running on half of the kernels ind the GPU, is this true?

I heard it scores so low because of the Sense 3.0 requiring so much to run.

Maybe HTC should start concerning themselves more with function rather than form. I think everyone hear would rather have a faster device with less eye candy. If you look at what Samsung had done since the Behold II they have progressively toned Touch Wiz down with each iteration. I just hope we get the boot loader unlocked quick.
Sent from my LG-P999 using XDA App

I hated touchwiz, and still hate Samsung.
Always have liked the sense. To.each their own.
Sent from my HTC Sensation 4G using XDA Premium App

Sensation has such low benchmarks because it has qHD screen and Sense 3.0. Take Sense 3.0 away and this thing'll fly!
As I said in my own Sense 3.0 thread, having Sense 3.0 and qHD screen beats having high benchmarks. Benchmarks don't mean ANYTHING unless they're running the same UI overlay. Put them on stock/CyanogenMod and the Sensation will be a lot lot faster!

redbullcat said:
Sensation has such low benchmarks because it has qHD screen and Sense 3.0. Take Sense 3.0 away and this thing'll fly!
As I said in my own Sense 3.0 thread, having Sense 3.0 and qHD screen beats having high benchmarks. Benchmarks don't mean ANYTHING unless they're running the same UI overlay. Put them on stock/CyanogenMod and the Sensation will be a lot lot faster!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree with this. Sense requires a lot of ram and so does the qHD screen. That's the only reason benchmarks are so low. Get some stock GB on here and you'll see the difference. It also explains why the chip is clocked at 1.2GHz. I wonder how much further it can be pushed, though.

ericc191 said:
I agree with this. Sense requires a lot of ram and so does the qHD screen. That's the only reason benchmarks are so low. Get some stock GB on here and you'll see the difference. It also explains why the chip is clocked at 1.2GHz. I wonder how much further it can be pushed, though.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I've heard the chip is underclocked to 1.2ghz to save battery...it apparently can go to 1.5ghz, at least.

jrwingate6 said:
Maybe HTC should start concerning themselves more with function rather than form. I think everyone hear would rather have a faster device with less eye candy. If you look at what Samsung had done since the Behold II they have progressively toned Touch Wiz down with each iteration. I just hope we get the boot loader unlocked quick.
Sent from my LG-P999 using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If you don't like sense then why buy the Sensation? That's like buying car that's a stick and then complaining because it's not an automatic. Yes sense is on the phone, yes sense may cause lower benchmarks, yes it's heavily intergrated. If those things bother you then perhaps purchasing a sensation was a mistake...not trying to start an argument, but really it illogical to complain about something you knew going in was a core part of the phone. I don't like touchwiz...so I don't purchase devices with touchwiz on them...it wouldn't make sense for me to buy a phone with touchwiz knowing I don't like it and then complaining about it.

Some ignorant people just don't get the fact. HTC had been advertised about Sense 3.0 for Sensation and we all do know it is a core part of the phone. So don't get the phone if you are for benchmarks isn't it? this sound silly, doesn't it?

Ah! Of course... the screen res is higher, that should influence on the benchmark for sure. Moto Xoom scores low also, but that too, has a higher res.
Im just concerned if it is still scoring lower when on stock. Does anyone have a true benchmark of the Adreno220, which is within the Sensation?
The benchmarks I found on the internet, the Adreno220/M8660 beats the crap out of LG optimus 2x and SGSII.
Anyone know if there is a truth to the "half cores only support" yet?

larsn84 said:
Ah! Of course... the screen res is higher, that should influence on the benchmark for sure. Moto Xoom scores low also, but that too, has a higher res.
Im just concerned if it is still scoring lower when on stock. Does anyone have a true benchmark of the Adreno220, which is within the Sensation?
The benchmarks I found on the internet, the Adreno220/M8660 beats the crap out of LG optimus 2x and SGSII.
Anyone know if there is a truth to the "half cores only support" yet?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
When we get s-off, we'll have some true benchmarks for all devices. Optimus 2x, Galaxy S II, Sensation, and possibly Moto Atrix. Put them all on latest release of CyanogenMod7 and benchmark them using a range of apps.

ImHuge07 said:
I heard it scores so low because of the Sense 3.0 requiring so much to run.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Actually its mainly because HTC chose to use old technology and use 2 second gen snapdragon chips which use the arm 8 instruction set, instead of using a cpu based on the new arm 9 technology which is what every other new dual core cpu is set up with.

TheRiceKing said:
Actually its mainly because HTC chose to use old technology and use 2 second gen snapdragon chips which use the arm 8 instruction set, instead of using a cpu based on the new arm 9 technology which is what ever other new dual core cpu is set up with.
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Click to collapse
As other people have stated, this view is nonsense. Scorpion is a parallel development to A9. It has advantages and disadvantages in comparison.

lol if you want to try and call it nonsense... I'm really just trying to help educate you and explain, but you can continue to think that if you wish
Scorpion incorporates some ARM 9 features, its basically like ARM 8 and a half and that is being optimistic -_-'

TheRiceKing said:
Actually its mainly because HTC chose to use old technology and use 2 second gen snapdragon chips which use the arm 8 instruction set, instead of using a cpu based on the new arm 9 technology which is what ever other new dual core cpu is set up with.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Your post is wildly inaccurate... First of all there is no ARM 8 instruction set. All A8, A9, and Scorpion processors use the ARMv7 instruction set. Second, Scorpion is Qualcomm's own architecture, it is not based on the A8 design, they created their own design from scratch. It is not as simple as A9 > A8 for this reason. The Scorpion architecture implements features that are not available on A8 but are available on A9. The main difference between the Scorpion and the A9 is the number of pipeline stages. The Scorpion has 13 while the A9 has 8. This is positive and negative for both, as more pipeline stages improves throughput, but is more costly if an instruction has to be aborted and the pipeline flushed.
I have gotten a lot of responses telling me that the Scorpion is based off A8 and tweaked. This is not correct. If it were simply tweaked, it would not be able to have a clock over 1 GHz without overclocking, as that is the limitation of the A8 architecture. It also could not support dual cores, again a limitation of A8. The Scorpion also has partial support of out-of-order processing. This is impossible on an A8 processor, but is fully supported on an A9.
You are correct in saying that every other dual core is based off an A9 processor because the A9 is the only design you can license from ARM that can support dual cores. The only alternative is for a company to license the instruction set itself and design their own architecture (Qualcomm's approach). I should also point out that the A9 processors are synchronous, while the MSM8260 is asynchronous, allowing separate clock speeds and voltages to each core, which can greatly increase battery performance (especially on processes that only utilize 1 core).
I will agree that A9 is more advanced than Scorpion, but it is not by nearly as much as the "Scorpion is A8" argument would indicate. The MSM8260 can also support clock speed up to 1.5 GHz, so the Sensation can be overclocked without actually overclocking the processor.

LittleMerc said:
Some ignorant people just don't get the fact. HTC had been advertised about Sense 3.0 for Sensation and we all do know it is a core part of the phone. So don't get the phone if you are for benchmarks isn't it? this sound silly, doesn't it?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Exactly! I don't understand the logic of people that purchase a device that they know has certain features and then complain about it. That's like buying a phone with a slide out keyboard and then complaining saying you don't like the fact that it has a slide out keyboard. My thing is, Sense is not a surprise. Everyone knew going in that it was there, and they know what it is and how it works. If certain people don't like that, then they probably shouldn't have bought the phone. Doesn't make sense to complain about getting exactly what you were paying for.

mpjohns3 said:
Your post is wildly inaccurate... First of all there is no ARM 8 instruction set. All A8, A9, and Scorpion processors use the ARMv7 instruction set. Second, Scorpion is Qualcomm's own architecture, it is not based on the A8 design, they created their own design from scratch. It is not as simple as A9 > A8 for this reason. The Scorpion architecture implements features that are not available on A8 but are available on A9. The main difference between the Scorpion and the A9 is the number of pipeline stages. The Scorpion has 13 while the A9 has 8. This is positive and negative for both, as more pipeline stages improves throughput, but is more costly if an instruction has to be aborted and the pipeline flushed.
I have gotten a lot of responses telling me that the Scorpion is based off A8 and tweaked. This is not correct. If it were simply tweaked, it would not be able to have a clock over 1 GHz without overclocking, as that is the limitation of the A8 architecture. It also could not support dual cores, again a limitation of A8. The Scorpion also has partial support of out-of-order processing. This is impossible on an A8 processor, but is fully supported on an A9.
You are correct in saying that every other dual core is based off an A9 processor because the A9 is the only design you can license from ARM that can support dual cores. The only alternative is for a company to license the instruction set itself and design their own architecture (Qualcomm's approach). I should also point out that the A9 processors are synchronous, while the MSM8260 is asynchronous, allowing separate clock speeds and voltages to each core, which can greatly increase battery performance (especially on processes that only utilize 1 core).
I will agree that A9 is more advanced than Scorpion, but it is not by nearly as much as the "Scorpion is A8" argument would indicate. The MSM8260 can also support clock speed up to 1.5 GHz, so the Sensation can be overclocked without actually overclocking the processor.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Wow, informative post. That should stop the A9 >A8 (Scorpion) because it's a bigger number rubbish, for a while.
Sent from my HTC Sensation Z710e using XDA App

sensation single core?

im just curious to kno when we over clock this phone with temp root ...are we only over clocking one processor? im asking this because I've been reading that gingerbread doesn't even use both cores...and we have to wait until ice cream sandwich for both cores to be used like there supposed to be...I kno some games utilize both cores, but for the most part we only have a "single" core phone?
Sent from my HTC Sensation 4G using XDA App

I'm interested in underclocking/disabling a core. Seeing how that would play out on battery life.

A post I found online says it nicely:
Right now, the android sdk (2.3) provides no means to use more than one CPU core.
Still, multicore CPUs will increase performance because background processes can use CPU time on the core not being used by the running app.
This also applies to garbage collection (GC) which happens periodically (I guess you can trigger it manually too) whilst an app is running. With more than one core, the GC won't block the app which makes it feel "smoother".
I remember reading about Google's plans to improve multicore-support in android 2.4. It will take some time for existing apps to use it though (like it's happened with desktop applications).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
As you can now see, even though the device is dual core, the OS and any applications won't make -full- use of both cores until they are designed to do so. Just like most applications these days won't utilize a quad core processor on your desktop. You are correct in saying that some games are designed to use both, which is noticeable. I don't see why an overclock wouldn't affect both cores.
By the way, your title is full of fail "Gingerbread only using one core?" would have been more suitable, since the device itself has nothing to do with how the OS utilizes its hardware.

I wonder if within the development here we can actually get that working?

xamadeix said:
I wonder if within the development here we can actually get that working?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Get what working, the overclock on both cores? Or Gingerbread using both cores?
If A: Yes (once S-OFF update comes, or temporarily with Fr3vo until then)
If B: No.

haha I thought about that after I posted..I kno how some pple are on here...easy to flame ya...which is why I don't post often..just read...but thanks for the info...I figured that was the case...can't wait to see what this phone is really capable of....s-off will be here sooner then later
Sent from my HTC Sensation 4G using XDA App

dontw said:
I'm just curious to know when we over clock this phone with temp root ...are we only over clocking one processor? I'm asking this because I've been reading that gingerbread doesn't even use both cores...and we have to wait until ice cream sandwich for both cores to be used like there supposed to be...I know some games utilize both cores, but for the most part we only have a "single" core phone?
Sent from my HTC Sensation 4G using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree with you.
It would be nice if both cores ramped up to full speed when even only one is needed.

So in basic terms..
SGSII is a monster of CPU power....
you say its only using 1 core, and SGSII scores about 2-3 times more than our HTC Sensation...
When icecream will be released, the samsung galaxy S ii will socre even higher than our sensation....
I do not think android 2.3 is using one core for sure its using both .( even if the OS doesn't support )

tomeu0000 said:
I do not think android 2.3 is using one core for sure its using both .( even if the OS doesn't support )
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Wait, huh? Are you saying that you think the GS2 is using both cores, and the sensation is only using one? That would completely explain the benchmark scores. Bring on 2.4

tomeu0000 said:
So in basic terms..
SGSII is a monster of CPU power....
you say its only using 1 core, and SGSII scores about 2-3 times more than our HTC Sensation...
When icecream will be released, the samsung galaxy S ii will socre even higher than our sensation....
I do not think android 2.3 is using one core for sure its using both .( even if the OS doesn't support )
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Where did you see a benchmark score where the SGSII is 2-3 times higher than the HTC Sensation?
The only one that I have checked was CF-Bench (which supports dual core) and the SGSII was about 20% higher. Certainly not 200%-300% higher.

tomeu0000 said:
So in basic terms..
SGSII is a monster of CPU power....
you say its only using 1 core, and SGSII scores about 2-3 times more than our HTC Sensation...
When icecream will be released, the samsung galaxy S ii will socre even higher than our sensation....
I do not think android 2.3 is using one core for sure its using both .( even if the OS doesn't support )
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sent from my HTC Sensation 4G using XDA App
this is gonna be a forever argument between the sensation and the gsII...on paper the sensation has better hardware ..Google it..its all over the forum ...the software is not optimized for the phone.with that being said..neither is the gsII...unless its running honeycomb somehow or ice cream sandwich ...gingerbread its self is the issue...now touchwiz may utilize both cores..im not sure..that may be why the gsII seems way smoother....just wait until this BL is unlocked...this phone will be monster

Do any of you guys remember this: MS update - KB896256?
I remember what that did for my laptop.
Worked real well.

How do the Dual cores work in this phone?

I got my sensation and love it, I have Android Revolution 3.1 and the RCMix version 1 kernel. It is currently overclocked to 1.78 ghz with Daemon OC.
I was curious though, I heard that some games and apps are not optimized for the dual cores. How do they work in these situations? Will one power down while the other works?
Also, In the newest update for Revolution HD, in the change log he mentions how the dual cores run constantly and that this is a first. Wouldn't this drain battery life?
Sorry about starting a new thread, im just curious. Thanks for any help!!

yes it s a very good question
i am gonna try that rom
especially about battery life.
any idea ?

i'd love the answer to this one myself.

Anyone??
Sent from my Virtuous Sensation, and loving it...

About the thing where the cores run constantly; I've been following the oc dual core thread, and someone found a way to keep both cores online and that overall, it had almost no effect on battery life but seemed to increase performance slightly.
To describe the way our dual core chips are setup would be very complicated, and would draw away from you initial question.
Just know, it shouldn't effect your battery too much.
Sent from my HTC Sensation 4G using XDA App

Generally
Dual Core = Better battery life
As long as the software is optimised to use them both

Really? Wow i thought dual core will consume more battery
Sent from my GT-I9100 using XDA Premium App

The dual cores in our phones are asynchronous, meaning instead of both cores splitting the workload evenly like some other chipsets, one core will remain offline until it's needed then spool up to assist with the load. This was causing a problem with overclocking because only one core was recognizing the clock speed and governor settings. Keeping both cores idling allows them to both recognize the proper settings. The thread about it can be found here http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1233103

CrazyCharlie said:
The dual cores in our phones are asynchronous, meaning instead of both cores splitting the workload evenly like some other chipsets, one core will remain offline until it's needed then spool up to assist with the load. This was causing a problem with overclocking because only one core was recognizing the clock speed and governor settings. Keeping both cores idling allows them to both recognize the proper settings. The thread about it can be found here http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1233103
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
dual core. Keeping it simple
think of a double Decker bus as synchronous CPUs
And two single deck buses. As asynchronous CPUs
passengers are your workload.
Most cpus out there are synchronous. so this means both processors split the load continuously at any one time. . Eg galaxy s2 and Intel CPUs
Asynchronous
Each core works independently from the other. Amd cpus do this and sensation.
But sensation only keeps one active till it needs the other one
Synchronous dual core cpus. These are your double decks. the bus Carries people and uses both floors at one time
Asynchronous in sensation.
these are your single decks. Only one bus will carry passengers. But when the bus is full or cannot cope the second bus is used
Sent from my HTC Sensation Z710e using XDA App

xl VipeR lx said:
dual core. Keeping it simple
think of a double Decker bus as synchronous CPUs
And two single deck buses. As asynchronous CPUs
passengers are your workload.
Most cpus out there are synchronous. so this means both processors split the load continuously at any one time. . Eg galaxy s2 and Intel CPUs
Asynchronous
Each core works independently from the other. Amd cpus do this and sensation.
But sensation only keeps one active till it needs the other one
Synchronous dual core cpus. These are your double decks. the bus Carries people and uses both floors at one time
Asynchronous in sensation.
these are your single decks. Only one bus will carry passengers. But when the bus is full or cannot cope the second bus is used
Sent from my HTC Sensation Z710e using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
first : the best explanation so far about how this phone works , two thumbs up !!!!
2nd : I'm currently thinking on moving from my Htc DHD to a new dual core phone ( had the Atrix , hated the pentile screen )
so in terms of everyday use ( i don't give a s**t about benchmarks ) which one is better to get - SGS2 or HTC Sensation ?

moshikko said:
first : the best explanation so far about how this phone works , two thumbs up !!!!
2nd : I'm currently thinking on moving from my Htc DHD to a new dual core phone ( had the Atrix , hated the pentile screen )
so in terms of everyday use ( i don't give a s**t about benchmarks ) which one is better to get - SGS2 or HTC Sensation ?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
LOL well I.am the noobproof dude. so just keeping it simple.
At the moment its hard to say. Depends on your taste and also true power of sensation isn't even seen yet
Sent from my HTC Sensation Z710e using XDA App

let me see if i understand this correctly

so the g2x has a duel core processer that gingerbread does not support? so i'm only useing one. and ics does support duel cores. the only way i'll get ics is to root my phone and wait for on of the devs to get an ics rom working on the the g2x. thanks in advance

In a nutshell
Sent from my LG-P999 using xda premium

It controls the two CPUs as one, it doesn't just use one. The rest I believe is correct.
Sent from my LG-P999 using xda premium

I think even rooting the phone and waiting for ICS from here will still not use the dual core properly as it will not have the Nvidia drivers till after it is released by LG.

GTWalling said:
I think even rooting the phone and waiting for ICS from here will still not use the dual core properly as it will not have the Nvidia drivers till after it is released by LG.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
WOW, thats pretty weak.

It's not that you're only using one core, it's that the two cores cannot function independently. They both focus on the same task and clock at the same speed, all the time. So you do notice an increase in performance above, say, a Nexus S, but it's not as good as it could be.
This is not a limitation of Gingerbread per say, but more a limitation of the drivers. Since nVidia does not release their driver source, we have to wait for them to provide better ones, which in all likelihood will never happen.

Two processors, one task
Due to resource sharing (cache, memory, mass storage, I/O), it is VERY hard to get two processors to work on one task. Some manager/executive would have to partition or parallelize the work between the two processors. And most tasks have many serial operations - what mechanism is going to serialize the tasks amongst two processors? I have yet to see a linux kernel expert on these forums declare Froyo or GB his a linux kernel that supports this.
The procs have dedicated L1 cache, and a shared L2 cache - stale cache blocks (aka cache miss) would be a nightmare if two procs were working on the same task - it would actually be slower.
Symmetric multi-core is made for multiple tasks or threads, not trying to parallelize a single task. I thought this was discussed in another thread...

http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1129074
Sent from my LG-P999 using XDA App

albertorodast2007 said:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1129074
Sent from my LG-P999 using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
thanks for the forward
edit:so i was reading the forwarded link and i ran in another like
http://api.viglink.com/api/click?fo...alcore-1015/&jsonp=vglnk_jsonp_13219228920753
and in this link it says the tegra 2 didn't use the asynchronous duel cores because nividia says it loses 10-15% performance. so i'm led to believe there not working independently. unless i'm misunderstanding.

Both cores are running just not as efficiently as they could with multi-threading. ICS will multi-thread and properly use the dual cores.

Thread scheduler
So does anyone know what mechanism handles thread scheduling? I guess it'd have to be at the Android layer... And I thought that was introduced in 3.0?