Related
Does anyone think that AT&T would be smart enough to intentionally leak Froyo to the dev community to see what methods would be employed to hack/mod/de-bloat and then subsequently block/secure those methods? Just food for thought.
JimmyStale said:
Does anyone think that AT&T would be smart enough to intentionally leak Froyo to the dev community to see what methods would be employed to hack/mod/de-bloat and then subsequently block/secure those methods? Just food for thought.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think that they may or could do this to find bugs in a mass consumer type BETA just before a final release. I may be wrong that they would not do this to find ways to keep people locked out.
But who knows they may do this for your stated reasons.
You give the death star far too much credit. We are the minority. The masses will simply take what AT&T gives them.
I highly doubt it. The methods we use to do most of the things AT&T hates, like circumventing their stupid 'no non-market apps' policy, are the same ones we've always been using, and not just with the captivate but all their other android handsets too.
lol no AT&T I'm sure is not even paying attention to what Samsung does with it's phones. As long as Sammy gives ol' AT&T the checklist stating yup we broke it to your specs - AT&T will let it out the door without even looking at the software update.
JimmyStale said:
Does anyone think that AT&T would be smart enough to intentionally leak Froyo to the dev community to see what methods would be employed to hack/mod/de-bloat and then subsequently block/secure those methods? Just food for thought.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is not even good enough to be a conspiracy. What happens on XDA affects a minority of phones. Neither AT&T or Samsung see any need to get info in advance, they are way to busy on their QA and Dev cycles.
Go work for a big corporation that has a software development group and you will soon learn that any idea like this is pure folly.
The leaks are coming from a developer or QA person with time to kill and who sees no harm in leaking. If the company found out, he/she would be fired, but there is no way anyone will ever know as this stuff floats around the company network and on USB sticks all day long.
Not to mention AT&T is smart enough to know that those who work to remove bloatware, aren't going to use it (and pay them) anyway.
Its the ones that don't know any better that they hope to suck a few extra dollars from.
This is VERY important information, please read all of it.
LOL I can see I made a mistake by posting this. There's just a bunch of arguing going on and most of you have seemed to disprove s lot of this. I was just relaying the information, maybe I'm too gullible to be here Either way, the information is relevant, but not confirmed by me or anyone, really besides P3droid. I see no reason why he would claim to have this information but just be making stuff up, but who knows. *shrug*
I'm assuming that most of you have seen it by now, but either way, I just felt there was a need to try to get the word out to everyone who might use a custom ROM. Some very disturbing information was brought to light recently by a respected member of the Verizon Droid and Droid X hacking community, known as P3droid. He is a member of Team Black Hat, similar to any development team here. He has made a lot of very important connections as a developer, some within the respective carriers. The information I'm going to share with you mostly pertains to Verizon, but P3droid *specifically* mentions that the implementation is cross-carrier.
My understanding of what's up:
The carriers have been working on an application that runs behind the scenes. The idea behind it is to track what happens on the phone and report back. It can detect unauthorized tethering, root, and custom ROMs. It works by periodically scanning your system partition for modifications, checking to see if your phone's MEID refuses OTA updates, and other unknown methods.
Can't we just remove it?
Sure, but your phone will be flagged by AT&T because the application isn't reporting back. They literally take your phone off of the network and force you to pay the ETF (early termination fee). [brought in to question by the people here, sounds implausible]
What can we do?
Stop tethering for now, I would officially consider it unsafe if you don't want to pay the ETF (maybe) or possibly have your phone flagged by AT&T.
If you want to be on the safe side, revert stock. However, as stated later, this will be very difficult to implement on a GSM network. As of right now, we should be OK, but as I said, better safe than sorry.
If any of your friends have unmodified Captivates, preferably with 2.2 (reverting stock doesn't count), get me a system dump, so I can see if the application in question is there. Directions: Make sure you have the android SDK installed on your computer, you can find it at developer.android.com. Once you have it set up and working, type (for Mac and Linux)
Code:
$ mkdir -p ~/Desktop/app
$ adb pull /system/app ~/Desktop/app
and for Windows,
Code:
cd Desktop
mkdir app
adb pull /system/app "C:\Documents and Settings\[yourusername]\Desktop\app"
Just remember, the Android root community is much bigger than we think. We have some real power. We just need to pull ourselves together and exert it.
What this means for us:
No more root
No more tethering
No more warranty-AT&T will flag your device as bad
Possibly no more connectivity
No more... anything
It is unknown which phones currently have the application preloaded, however it is known that several phones on Verizon have it installed.
Kaik541, a trusted acquaintance of mine pointed out that this would be difficult, if not impossible to implement on a GSM network. It is a very valid point, however I still think that the best plan of action is to proceed with caution.
A quick dialog between P3droid and me:
Have you heard anything about AT&T and unauthorized tethering?
Nothing too specific, just general chatter.
Looks like it's time to stop tethering either way. I'll let all the AT&T guys know, if they don't already
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
And finally, hit up the source link for more infos.
http://androidheadlines.com/2011/04/will-rooting-your-android-phone-come-to-an-end.html
and
http://www.mydroidworld.com/forums/...otloaders-rooting-manufacturers-carriers.html
For up to date info, follow P3droid on twitter: http://twitter.com/P3droid and me (but mostly P3droid) http://twitter.com/ytt3r.
Reserved as a natural reflex
There were similar stories like this when iOS 3 or 4 was getting ready to come out. Turned out to be a hoax but it did throw up some red flags for me.
Someone needs to take a fine-toothed comb to the user agreements because I really doubt they can legally checkup on your device when they want to, especially without mentioning this software has been added to the device.
I highly doubt this is a hoax. We seriously need to cover ourselves. This is scary stuff.
Glorious Canada!
But in all seriousness, I believe that this can be dealt with. As for tethering, they have every right to kick you off the network if you aren't paying for a tethering plan (yes, tethering plans are a complete money grab, but you are still violating the TOS). For the OTA, we could spoof it, answering the call, downloading the update, then deleting it and reporting updated with out ever updating.
TheEscapist said:
Glorious Canada!
But in all seriousness, I believe that this can be dealt with. As for tethering, they have every right to kick you off the network if you aren't paying for a tethering plan (yes, tethering plans are a complete money grab, but you are still violating the TOS). For the OTA, we could spoof it, answering the call, downloading the update, then deleting it and reporting updated with out ever updating.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Luckily our Rogers Captivates don't do OTA updates! Not yet, anyways.
And Fully agree on the tethering.
We have some very talented people in this community. I, personally, don't know anything about android development. But I do have enough knowledge about development to know that anything can be reversed, tricked, or even stopped. We have the skills, man-power, and will. We'll be okay in the long-run.
I'm not worried.
We need to comb over the TOS and see if they can legally do this.
How would they hide this program?
they can't. I don't think its implemented yet on any gsm phones, but we know for a fact that the leaked gingerbread for droid x has it.
designfears said:
There were similar stories like this when iOS 3 or 4 was getting ready to come out. Turned out to be a hoax but it did throw up some red flags for me.
Someone needs to take a fine-toothed comb to the user agreements because I really doubt they can legally checkup on your device when they want to, especially without mentioning this software has been added to the device.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
In Canada they have to inform you of changes, from that point you have 30 days to cancel your contract without any penalty, as it is a change of agreement. Not sure if this relates to you US guys and girls,
Also, if they do this, what is to stop you from buying a pay as you go sim card, and using it on your smart phones. The pay as you go plans here in canada have the same options as a contract plan......
So this almost makes no sense....
What a better way to lose a bunch of customers. Doesn't make sense to me either.
You'd think they realize that communities like XDA make having phones like this worthwhile.
Quickest way to kill off the Android platform would be to limit us to the crap roms the carriers put out. I never even thought of an iPhone until I heard this!
I fail to see how they could legally do this. Not to mention forcing an etf will result in people switching networks. No one would put up with that and stay with them.
If this is true, I wonder how hard it would be to hack the app and just have it send back false information.
cappysw10 said:
You'd think they realize that communities like XDA make having phones like this worthwhile.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think it would be things like side-loading apps or free tethering that they're primarily concerned about.
I wonder if the penalty will only go against giys who get subsidized phones. I buy my phones out right so for that to happen would be off putting.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using XDA Premium App
seems very questionable from a legal standpoint. not sure how they can have anything hidden from a user that buys the phone from them, without actually disclosing that it's on there... without a massive lawsuit anyways.
wonder what google thinks of this?
They can't force a ETF that would be illegal if your not violating your contract i.e. tethering.
I have never tethered at all and would gladly cancel my att contract with paying the etf if this happened. IF ATT wont let me use my phone as I want as long as I am not stealing service I will take my service to a carrier that will END OF STORY.
Does this mean the Communities are a lot larger than we think? I originally thought that we were a small marketplace, and didn't have a major impact on things.
So if the Carriers and manufacturers are investing this kind of time, money and effort into stopping the modifications, We must be causing havoc.......
Still doesn't make sense............
Lucke said:
seems very questionable from a legal standpoint. not sure how they can have anything hidden from a user that buys the phone from them, without actually disclosing that it's on there... without a massive lawsuit anyways.
wonder what google thinks of this?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Read the linked threads.......They say Google is helping them.
http://technolog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/04/06/6419016-google-tightens-reins-on-android-
It looks like Google is thinking of locking down also. It would protect us from Carrier modding woes, but what's gonna start happening when they decide not to release source codes....
I know that Dan found an exploit, I have a feeling this is part of why nobody seems to be complaining to AT&T about the locked bootloader, but the problem is that it isn't a permanent fix, granted we have the ability to disable automated updates, etc. My problem is that AT&T is going to lock all devices from here on out, simply because we allowed them too.
So what can we do?
AnthomX said:
So what can we do?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Don't give AT&T your business? I know the locked bootloader issue incenses the Android modding community, but the vast majority of consumers don't know and don't care. AT&T is practically the government, and they don't care either. It's frustrating, but if you don't like it please vote with your dollars.
burhanistan said:
Don't give AT&T your business? I know the locked bootloader issue incenses the Android modding community, but the vast majority of consumers don't know and don't care. AT&T is practically the government, and they don't care either. It's frustrating, but if you don't like it please vote with your dollars.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I can agree with that, my only complaint is the small majority of us that notice the lock. Speaking with our money in this case isn't going to make much of a point. There simply isn't enough of us to make them take a hit in their margins. So my guess is that in this instance, it is, what it is, for us? I know AT&T provides us (me and family) the best service in terms of voice/data.
That is just disappointing, because other carriers will follow behind it.
AnthomX said:
I know that Dan found an exploit, I have a feeling this is part of why nobody seems to be complaining to AT&T about the locked bootloader, but the problem is that it isn't a permanent fix, granted we have the ability to disable automated updates, etc. My problem is that AT&T is going to lock all devices from here on out, simply because we allowed them too.
So what can we do?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Right now there isn't many legal avenues in favor of the consumer concerning the access to unlocked devices. Congress has given the carriers most of the deciding power over what extent the end-user may manipulate the software on the device. After a petition gained enough friction and reached the White House, the executive branch has agreed consumers deserve the right to invoke their will over devices sold to them without criminal liability, there has yet been any legislative change regarding the matter.
Ultimately, what we can do is multi-faceted to get the attention of carriers [AT&T] to cave to our demands:
1: We can vote with our money by refusing to purchase devices distributed by them, citing their abuse of power over devices sold to consumers -- leaving us no freedom to do as we please with merchandise we contractually own.
2: We can appeal to authority by raising the issue to a federal level to be examined by either higher courts, consumer affairs, Better Business Bureau, or writing your congressman.
3: Start an online petition and hope it gains enough traction to put AT&T and other carriers in a negative light publically on the national stage.
These options work well with numbers and have a better chance of success when done in conjunction with one another. The armchair approach has very little chance of success and often doesn't even merit a reply by way of spokesperson.
AnthomX said:
I can agree with that, my only complaint is the small majority of us that notice the lock. Speaking with our money in this case isn't going to make much of a point. There simply isn't enough of us to make them take a hit in their margins. So my guess is that in this instance, it is, what it is, for us? I know AT&T provides us (me and family) the best service in terms of voice/data.
That is just disappointing, because other carriers will follow behind it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree, but to play devil's advocate, I can see why AT&T would want to lock down devices. I imagine since they've been selling Android devices they've had to process tons of RMAs on devices that were bricked by amateurs installing the wrong ROMs. That may well amount to a minuscule hit in their bloated profit margin, but a corporation tends to do whatever it can to prevent dollars from leaking out. If the locked bootloader prevents the casual ROM flasher from bricking a new S4, then they view that as success. I don't know if that's why they did it, though.
The other side to that, of course, that an unlocked bootloader makes it easy to restore a bricked device back to stock. I'd like to see AT&T and other carriers reach out to the dev community more and have some provisions for installing alternate ROMs and OSes on the devices. I'd also like them to just sell me bandwidth and not interfere with content or operating systems, but I won't hold my breath!
antde201 said:
Right now there isn't many legal avenues in favor of the consumer concerning the access to unlocked devices.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
burhanistan said:
I agree, but to play devil's advocate,
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Click to collapse
AGREED very much Burhanistan, I know that is a hit for AT&T, but you know, they could offer repair services at a decent rate that could fix these bad flashes, as most of the time only a JTAG is needed. Which leads into support and encouragement for the Android communities. But, one can dream. They are more about that profit margin than a profit margin AND great customer service.
Antde, I am looking at starting a petition, maybe gain some traction there? Who knows, but I think you are right, in the end, AT&T doesn't want our business, and I am ok with that. Unfortunately it will be a headache similar to swapping from Apple after using them for so many years. Time to bust out the aspirin I guess. We will see.
Becasue carriers dont care about what we think about locked bootloaders.At the end of the day this device is making millions for them think about it to them it doesnt make a difference.I myself work for a carrier in the U.S and trust me to them what ever rants and complaints we post mean squat....
Anyways its going to be unlocked soon when the VZW releases so whatever I dont even get why we should make such a big deal locked bootloaders always get hacked ...
burhanistan said:
I agree, but to play devil's advocate, I can see why AT&T would want to lock down devices. I imagine since they've been selling Android devices they've had to process tons of RMAs on devices that were bricked by amateurs installing the wrong ROMs. That may well amount to a minuscule hit in their bloated profit margin, but a corporation tends to do whatever it can to prevent dollars from leaking out. If the locked bootloader prevents the casual ROM flasher from bricking a new S4, then they view that as success. I don't know if that's why they did it, though.
The other side to that, of course, that an unlocked bootloader makes it easy to restore a bricked device back to stock. I'd like to see AT&T and other carriers reach out to the dev community more and have some provisions for installing alternate ROMs and OSes on the devices. I'd also like them to just sell me bandwidth and not interfere with content or operating systems, but I won't hold my breath!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
There's more to a carrier's decision to lock down a device's bootloader than just pure spite and asserting their control. Carriers are also charged with mobile security, protection of their assets (bandwidth), and again security.
An unlocked bootloader theoretically opens the floodgates to a plethora of security threats to both the device and information stored and/or shared therein. Google and their partners are pushing mobile security to both stay relevant in the mobile OS market and to appeal to other markets where they may have been previously overlooked, such as defense and business.
You also have to consider the possibility of unregulated mobile tethering which falls under the umbrella of loss prevention to any business.
Lastly, as you and others have mentioned, the possibility of insurance claims due to bricked devices. Though I'd argue that this area doesn't pose much risk to the carrier directly as you void your warranty as soon as you flash a custom ROM.
So with all of these facets together, you'd see how it would be a no brainer to a corporation to purchase the secure version of an OEM device. Especially if you've chosen to adopt a subsidized device. The contract you sign is subject to whatever terms they produce and if you do not agree, you're free to stay with your current device and leave when your contract expires. I don't care for this sentiment, but it's the reality they have procured.
I think they did it to fight back against tethering.
ATT getting phone manufacturers to lock their phones started a while back. IIRC the first big uproar was for the HTC Vivid. IMHO it's for security and ATT keeping their big accounts. BB ruled for so long because of security. iPhones are the same way. Companies want a secure device. Moto (one of the main ones that market to business use) has always had the stingiest bootloaders regardless of carrier.
poofyhairguy said:
I think they did it to fight back against tethering.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ya because that really stopped us from tethering... Oh wait..
Glad I didn't yet sell my S4, because I believe the Verizon S5 is soon to be the most returned phone in Android history.
While Verizon/Samung/Android didn't "actively" mislead anyone about the capabilities of this phone, they clearly allowed people to believe things to the contrary, and it royally pisses me off.
1> There is no sense in having a finger print scanner that doesn't work most of the time, and doesn't allow for purchases with PayPal as originally intended/advertised.**Now working**
2> Crippling the download booster function and not even offering an explanation is simply unacceptable.
3> Having an extSdCard that 4.4 doesn't allow 3rd party apps to access is not "secure", it's stupid.
4> Rooting and allowing awesome developers to do what they do is what Android is ALL ABOUT, and this phone is the epitome of preventing that.
5> I'm sure there are other things yet to make it to light, that will also have no explanation for the defiance of logic.
Verizon, Android, and Samsung have succeeded in making the iPhone of the Android world. Frankly, I'd rather have an iPhone, and iCant stand em. Best of luck to those that decide to stick it out and pray for root, as I believe that is the only thing that could possibly salvage this joke of a device. Anyone involved in it's creation, should feel ashamed.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted by hypocrites as self evident, as if they never personally ridiculed, or violently opposed it."
That's a negative sense. Can you imagine it positively ?
If you see it as positively then developer edition give ours good opportunity.. i believe it..
jpmcnown said:
Glad I didn't yet sell my S4, because I believe the Verizon S5 is soon to be the most returned phone in Android history.
While Verizon/Samung/Android didn't "actively" mislead anyone about the capabilities of this phone, they clearly allowed people to believe things to the contrary, and it royally pisses me off.
1> There is no sense in having a finger print scanner that doesn't work most of the time, and doesn't allow for purchases with PayPal as originally intended/advertised.
2> Crippling the download booster function and not even offering an explanation is simply unacceptable.
3> Having an extSdCard that 4.4 doesn't allow 3rd party apps to access is not "secure", it's stupid.
4> Rooting and allowing awesome developers to do what they do is what Android is ALL ABOUT, and this phone is the epitome of preventing that.
5> I'm sure there are other things yet to make it to light, that will also have no explanation for the defiance of logic.
Verizon, Android, and Samsung have succeeded in making the iPhone of the Android world. Frankly, I'd rather have an iPhone, and iCant stand em. Best of luck to those that decide to stick it out and pray for root, as I believe that is the only thing that could possibly salvage this joke of a device. Anyone involved in it's creation, should feel ashamed.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted by hypocrites as self evident, as if they never personally ridiculed, or violently opposed it."
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You're being a bit dramatic...this phone will get some returns being so locked down, but the number of us that care about root is small, less than 3% I would bet. This will be the best selling Android phone of the year for any carrier most likely.
1) Fingerprint scanner can be greatly improved if you scan the sides of your fingers as well.
2) Agreed and explanation would be nice, but on the other hand they could be trying to avoid a lot of people using this and unknowingly eating up all their data allotment. Consumers have come to understand that being on your wifi doesn't use your data, so if they enabled this feature, they would be using their data while on wifi as well, many without understanding. Then lots of people get overages and get upset with the carriers, causing a headache and more bad PR.
3) Agree again, but Google is asking OEM's to do this with KitKat, it's not unique to Samsung.
4) Rooting/ROMing is not even close to being what Android is "ALL ABOUT", but it's a nice perk with most phones.
5) Okay
This phone will likely get root at some point, but who knows for sure. Luckily, there's other great options to pick from as well.
jpmcnown said:
Glad I didn't yet sell my S4, because I believe the Verizon S5 is soon to be the most returned phone in Android history.
While Verizon/Samung/Android didn't "actively" mislead anyone about the capabilities of this phone, they clearly allowed people to believe things to the contrary, and it royally pisses me off.
1> There is no sense in having a finger print scanner that doesn't work most of the time, and doesn't allow for purchases with PayPal as originally intended/advertised.
2> Crippling the download booster function and not even offering an explanation is simply unacceptable.
3> Having an extSdCard that 4.4 doesn't allow 3rd party apps to access is not "secure", it's stupid.
4> Rooting and allowing awesome developers to do what they do is what Android is ALL ABOUT, and this phone is the epitome of preventing that.
5> I'm sure there are other things yet to make it to light, that will also have no explanation for the defiance of logic.
Verizon, Android, and Samsung have succeeded in making the iPhone of the Android world. Frankly, I'd rather have an iPhone, and iCant stand em. Best of luck to those that decide to stick it out and pray for root, as I believe that is the only thing that could possibly salvage this joke of a device. Anyone involved in it's creation, should feel ashamed.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted by hypocrites as self evident, as if they never personally ridiculed, or violently opposed it."
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Your forgot the fact the 98% of S5 users don't care about those facts, you are a minority. I am glad you didn't buy an S5 so we don't have to hear you whine about what we already know. Those that bought in know what we are getting into, coming from a former S4 user w/ Root. If we don't get root, that will suck, but I will be just fine, the less I tinker with my phone, the more I enjoy other things in life.
I have a great idea for you, go to TMobile, they will pay your ETF and get your dream phone.
wow... calm it down son...
waiting for root exploit is part of the fun for me... yes, it sucks i can't have root out of the box to restore my apps but samsung made plenty of upgrades that will keep me busy till a root is out... if it ever does.
I got your back JP. The Verizon Samsung Galaxy s5 turned out to be all the things I thought it would be. I.E. more of the same from Samsung and Verizon both. I am so glad I jumped ship to HTC and got the M8. I am comfortably S-off'ed, doing whatever the hell I want with my 600$ phone.
Guys, cut him ssome slack. I'm sure each and every one of you has *****ed about buying a 600$ phone and not being able to modify it at some point.
I was able to successfully obtain f-off on the Galaxy S5.
jucytec said:
wow... calm it down son...
waiting for root exploit is part of the fun for me... yes, it sucks i can't have root out of the box to restore my apps but samsung made plenty of upgrades that will keep me busy till a root is out... if it ever does.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Wrong post
fillyo said:
Then go to the M8 forums, we don't care about your thoughts on the S5 and why you bought the M8. I'm not in there posting why I didn't buy the One. I went to buy the One on launch day but chickened out because the camera sucks and the bezel is huge and it is too tall.
Sent from my SM-G900V using xda app-developers app
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Read my post again monkey. I never said I bought an M8. I said I don't mind waiting for root. M8 is garbage
Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
nicholi2789 said:
I got your back JP. The Verizon Samsung Galaxy s5 turned out to be all the things I thought it would be. I.E. more of the same from Samsung and Verizon both. I am so glad I jumped ship to HTC and got the M8. I am comfortably S-off'ed, doing whatever the hell I want with my 600$ phone.
Guys, cut him ssome slack. I'm sure each and every one of you has *****ed about buying a 600$ phone and not being able to modify it at some point.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Then go to the M8 forums, we don't care about your thoughts on the S5 and why you bought the M8. I'm not in the One forum posting that it is a POS and why I didn't buy the One. I went to buy the One on launch day but chickened out because the camera sucks and the bezel is huge and it is too tall. But that is my choice, I'm not ****ting on everyone else's who bought the One by telling them that in their forums. We know this phone will not be cracked and who cares, works fine as it. I just want root for tether and debloat.
It's funny that you see M8 and Nexus 5 fanboys posting all over the S5 articles everywhere bashing the S5, it's a joke. You must not be happy with your choice. I guess this is what happens to the top dog.
Sent from my SM-G900V using xda app-developers app
Eh, people just need to reinforce their decision to go for prettyness over functionality. But we all cannot be teenage girls. And yes, sometimes the most popular device is actually the best.
I think this whole "rebel against popularity" stems from the battle between iOS and Android. Unfortunately Samsung is being seen as the new Apple in the android environment when clearly the provider, in this case VZW, is the oppressor.
Sent from my shiny new GS5 using XDA Premium.
previous device: Galaxy Nexus
jpmcnown said:
Glad I didn't yet sell my S4, because I believe the Verizon S5 is soon to be the most returned phone in Android history.
While Verizon/Samung/Android didn't "actively" mislead anyone about the capabilities of this phone, they clearly allowed people to believe things to the contrary, and it royally pisses me off.
1> There is no sense in having a finger print scanner that doesn't work most of the time, and doesn't allow for purchases with PayPal as originally intended/advertised.
2> Crippling the download booster function and not even offering an explanation is simply unacceptable.
3> Having an extSdCard that 4.4 doesn't allow 3rd party apps to access is not "secure", it's stupid.
4> Rooting and allowing awesome developers to do what they do is what Android is ALL ABOUT, and this phone is the epitome of preventing that.
5> I'm sure there are other things yet to make it to light, that will also have no explanation for the defiance of logic.
Verizon, Android, and Samsung have succeeded in making the iPhone of the Android world. Frankly, I'd rather have an iPhone, and iCant stand em. Best of luck to those that decide to stick it out and pray for root, as I believe that is the only thing that could possibly salvage this joke of a device. Anyone involved in it's creation, should feel ashamed.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted by hypocrites as self evident, as if they never personally ridiculed, or violently opposed it."
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
1. Yes it does allow payments via Paypal, stop being a tool and READ, maybe even Google something....
2. The gentlemen above me gave a great explanation. It just wouldn't make sense in a capped data environment.
3. If Root were obtained, this wouldn't be an issue. 3rd party apps CAN access the card BTW, they just can't write to folders other than their own. You do know the My Files app works, right????
4. No. Providing smartphone users with an OS that has tightly integrated Google services as a means for Google to serve you relevant ads is what ANDROID is all about. You and I and the rest of us who care about customizing are miniscule compared to the BILLION PLUS Android users. Get a clue dude.
5. Stop being a tool, get off the forums, go play around with the phone, maybe even watch a video or two about all the tips and tricks the phone has, and then come back, when you're ready to not sound like a whiny teenager.
---------- Post added at 01:25 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:20 AM ----------
nicholi2789 said:
I got your back JP. The Verizon Samsung Galaxy s5 turned out to be all the things I thought it would be. I.E. more of the same from Samsung and Verizon both. I am so glad I jumped ship to HTC and got the M8. I am comfortably S-off'ed, doing whatever the hell I want with my 600$ phone.
Guys, cut him ssome slack. I'm sure each and every one of you has *****ed about buying a 600$ phone and not being able to modify it at some point.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No, I doubt most of us have. Apart from it being an old argument that accomplishes NOTHING, it also is pretty naive to buy a phone THINKING that people who VOLUNTEER and work on donations would spend time to find an exploit, as if this is owed or expected. The sense of entitlement for people who believe this is ridiculous.
S5 does have root, does have custom boot loader, and already has roms. It is VERIZON that has your phone locked.
I'm sorry to say it, but I jumped over to T MOBILE and they paid my ETF fee....up to $350...
$50 A month unlimited, instead of $90 or so, plus additional line too. ...
So far I'm happy with the switch though.
Sorry you are having issues with your version.
If I come across anything to help you guys I will post in here for you.
Sent from my rooted 'beaned' SM-G900T using Tapatalk Premium
mexiken said:
1. Yes it does allow payments via Paypal, stop being a tool and READ, maybe even Google something....
2. The gentlemen above me gave a great explanation. It just wouldn't make sense in a capped data environment.
3. If Root were obtained, this wouldn't be an issue. 3rd party apps CAN access the card BTW, they just can't write to folders other than their own. You do know the My Files app works, right????
4. No. Providing smartphone users with an OS that has tightly integrated Google services as a means for Google to serve you relevant ads is what ANDROID is all about. You and I and the rest of us who care about customizing are miniscule compared to the BILLION PLUS Android users. Get a clue dude.
5. Stop being a tool, get off the forums, go play around with the phone, maybe even watch a video or two about all the tips and tricks the phone has, and then come back, when you're ready to not sound like a whiny teenager.
---------- Post added at 01:25 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:20 AM ----------
No, I doubt most of us have. Apart from it being an old argument that accomplishes NOTHING, it also is pretty naive to buy a phone THINKING that people who VOLUNTEER and work on donations would spend time to find an exploit, as if this is owed or expected. The sense of entitlement for people who believe this is ridiculous.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
1. Follow your own advice, I'll wait.......
2. I wish I was so naive that no explanation, would be considered an explanation.
3. You do know that "My Files" is not a third party app, right????? I understand that most of these issues would be a non-issue with root access, but please oh wise one, explain how this apparent increased root difficulty is peculiarly carrier-specific?
4. No one in the history of the world has ever said "I'm going to get an Android so I can have relevant ads." At least one person has said, "I want to customize the **** out of my phone, therefore, Android."
5. Thank you, I had no idea that there was information about this phone anywhere other than XDA. Perhaps in my quest, I may find this elusive information about the Verizon S5 fingerprint scanner usable with Paypal you speak of.
6. I do NOT feel "entitled" to root. I understand that what you call "volunteering" isn't also about NOT getting paid, which is why I have no problem supporting the awesome efforts of root/recovery/rom/app developers. I DO feel entitled to features advertised to be available in a product, and if/when those features are deliberately disabled, I DO feel entitled to an explanation. Unless you can provide explanations instead of a cult-like defense reserved for Apple Forums, please limit your responses to the tools that may kiss you ass elsewhere.
This is no different than if a car company was to release a model of vehicle with a set of unique features, only to have the dealership remove them, and not bother to tell anyone about it. Then when you realize that those features are missing, and take to a forum (typically) full of enlightened people with explanations and solutions, you instead receive rhetoric like "Stop *****ing about the car not having heated seats(albeit not a unique feature), it has a steering wheel, doesn't it you ungrateful prick?"
em0ney14 said:
S5 does have root, does have custom boot loader, and already has roms. It is VERIZON that has your phone locked.
I'm sorry to say it, but I jumped over to T MOBILE and they paid my ETF fee....up to $350...
$50 A month unlimited, instead of $90 or so, plus additional line too. ...
So far I'm happy with the switch though.
Sorry you are having issues with your version.
If I come across anything to help you guys I will post in here for you.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks for your input, I am seriously weighing my options, I've been checking out the T-Mobile S5 forums, and see a lot of interesting things going on over there. I haven't been under contract with Verizon for years, and frankly, coverage is the only thing that's preventing me from leaving, and they unfortunately have no competition in that regard. Still considering throwing my grandfathered unlimited data plans on ebay, and exchanging coverage for capability.
jpmcnown said:
Thanks for your input, I am seriously weighing my options, I've been checking out the T-Mobile S5 forums, and see a lot of interesting things going on over there. I haven't been under contract with Verizon for years, and frankly, coverage is the only thing that's preventing me from leaving, and they unfortunately have no competition in that regard. Still considering throwing my grandfathered unlimited data plans on ebay, and exchanging coverage for capability.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Same boat. I have piece of mind, that wherever I go I have service with Verizon. Although tmobile has great service where I live in Atlanta, I've also traveled north and south and felt so cheap and angry having a phone with a G and edge icon for data majority of the time. I mean it's 2014 for crying out loud. LOL! Also the fact my family lives in West Virginia where there's no tmobile service and it roams on att at the worst capped speeds. At that point I promise to not let Verizon go because it has a stellar LTE icon at least 90% of the way. Once I get back to Atlanta, I say, well I have great coverage where I live, costs is cheaper, and mainly bootloaders are unlocked with tmobile. Once I travel on the road again it's the same cycle of me back pedaling leaving Verizon because they're hands down the most reliable, I have a 20% discount, and unlimited data. I'm tempted to suspend my service with Verizon and only reconnect when I travel until tmobile gets there coverage wise. Since I've been off contract forever I can suspend my line for at least half the year without being billed. I feel ridiculous going through this as an adult because I like to flash ROMS. Help me? LOL!
Sent from my SM-G900T using Tapatalk
jpmcnown said:
I was able to successfully obtain f-off on the Galaxy S5.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is hands-down the funniest post I've ever read on XDA. I agree, after my Note 3, I'm all done with Samsung devices permanently. They don't care about their customers at all. They've been most unhelpful after I've exhausted every channel of support imaginable looking for a solution. I wish Motorola would make a high-end device again, which I bet they are. Regardless, don't get too excited about the S5 getting unlocked. I've been working with another S4 developer for about 6 months now, and while we've got a great understanding of what's going on, there's not much we can do. We're still working, but don't get this device expecting custom ROMs and kernels. Root is realistic though, and I'd imagine it'll be here soon
Remember that you have 14 days after renewal of contract or purchase of the device to bring it back and tell those red trolls that you can't root this bad boy.
jpmcnown said:
Thanks for your input, I am seriously weighing my options, I've been checking out the T-Mobile S5 forums, and see a lot of interesting things going on over there. I haven't been under contract with Verizon for years, and frankly, coverage is the only thing that's preventing me from leaving, and they unfortunately have no competition in that regard. Still considering throwing my grandfathered unlimited data plans on ebay, and exchanging coverage for capability.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
How does the work, selling your unlimited plan? Do you have to lose your phone number as well?
Free storage from Copy:
https://copy.com?r=cScoov
jpmcnown said:
Glad I didn't yet sell my S4, because I believe the Verizon S5 is soon to be the most returned phone in Android history.
While Verizon/Samung/Android didn't "actively" mislead anyone about the capabilities of this phone, they clearly allowed people to believe things to the contrary, and it royally pisses me off.
1> There is no sense in having a finger print scanner that doesn't work most of the time, and doesn't allow for purchases with PayPal as originally intended/advertised.
2> Crippling the download booster function and not even offering an explanation is simply unacceptable.
3> Having an extSdCard that 4.4 doesn't allow 3rd party apps to access is not "secure", it's stupid.
4> Rooting and allowing awesome developers to do what they do is what Android is ALL ABOUT, and this phone is the epitome of preventing that.
5> I'm sure there are other things yet to make it to light, that will also have no explanation for the defiance of logic.
Verizon, Android, and Samsung have succeeded in making the iPhone of the Android world. Frankly, I'd rather have an iPhone, and iCant stand em. Best of luck to those that decide to stick it out and pray for root, as I believe that is the only thing that could possibly salvage this joke of a device. Anyone involved in it's creation, should feel ashamed.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted by hypocrites as self evident, as if they never personally ridiculed, or violently opposed it."
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Nice of you to share how you really feel about the GS5. Now you should take that to the M8 forums since it will get you a lot more mileage there. Here people just don't care.
I'm very happy with my GS5 and a lot of people are too.
Sounds like you don't even have the phoeu, but came here to troll instead.
Good luck with that.
Sent from my SM-G900V using XDA Premium 4 mobile app
brazcub said:
Nice of you to share how you really feel about the GS5. Now you should take that to the M8 forums since it will get you a lot more mileage there. Here people just don't care.
I'm very happy with my GS5 and a lot of people are too.
Sounds like you don't even have the phoeu, but came here to troll instead.
Good luck with that.
Sent from my SM-G900V using XDA Premium 4 mobile app
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah, you got me, I'm pissed about a phone I didn't buy. What part of my diatribe would give any sane person the impression that I don't own the Verizon S5 genius?
I don't know if this is general knowledge here, but I figured I'd relate my experience here in case it's informative for others. I've been having a ton of trouble with dropped calls on Verizon at my home. It's always been a marginal signal, but the last couple of months it's been impossible to use my phone at all. So I finally called Verizon and quickly was transferred to Level 2 support. The Level 2 support immediately jumped down my throat about having a rooted phone. When I asked them how they determine that I have a rooted phone the agent proceeded to list every app installed on my phone and explained that some of them only work on rooted phones. He was adamant that the reason for dropped calls was having a rooted phone and refused to provide any support.
It was news to me that our Verizon phones phone home and keep them informed as to what apps are installed on our phones, and that now Verizon is refusing to provide support to people that even have apps that require root privileges.
Depends on the state that you live in. The warranty is to protect against hardware defects and in some states Verizon will have to show that rooting or one of your installed apps is the cause of your issues.
You can always flash back to full stock and see if you still have drops. If so, call them up again...
I *am* full stock. I have literally changed nothing except to root the phone. Everything is pure stock ... even the Verizon apps and recovery are all still there.
GNRDuncan said:
I *am* full stock. I have literally changed nothing except to root the phone. Everything is pure stock ... even the Verizon apps and recovery are all still there.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It is not uncommon for carriers to refuse to support anything other then fully stock devices. You have to remember that root is a security risk as well and most will not support this.
Thanks. I get that. What surprised me wasn't that they wouldn't support a rooted phone, but that Verizon had a list of apps I'd installed (even apps installed directly by ADB). I wasn't aware that they had spyware on my phone that was monitoring what I do on the phone.
GNRDuncan said:
Thanks. I get that. What surprised me wasn't that they wouldn't support a rooted phone, but that Verizon had a list of apps I'd installed (even apps installed directly by ADB). I wasn't aware that they had spyware on my phone that was monitoring what I do on the phone.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That is part of the info that is sent to all carriers when they collect info for troubleshooting and stats. Some of that info is they grab a list of apps in the system and data/app partitions.
I wasn't aware they could read anything on my phone without my permission. I wonder what other information they can grab at will without me knowing?
It's legal in the US for providers to look at what their customers are using and installing on their phone?
Bloody hell... Over here a provider isn't even allowed to see which apps use up your data, all they can report is how much you used in total. The very idea that they'd be allowed to look inside your phone is... inconceivable in Europe.
GNRDuncan said:
I wasn't aware they could read anything on my phone without my permission. I wonder what other information they can grab at will without me knowing?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thats the thing is you give them permission. No one ever reads it but it is in the TOS. You even agree to it when you first sign in to an android device about it collecting data from your device. As for other info they can get. Pretty much any and every website you go to, and things like that. Your contacts and stuff are pretty safe. If you consider storing them on google safe.
ShadowLea said:
It's legal in the US for providers to look at what their customers are using and installing on their phone?
Bloody hell... Over here a provider isn't even allowed to see which apps use up your data, all they can report is how much you used in total. The very idea that they'd be allowed to look inside your phone is... inconceivable in Europe.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You might not have noticed but you agree to it on every android device. ITs all part of troubleshooting system issues. Heck Google can even remotely remove apps from your device. Carriers in the US have far more control over the device because you dont tech own the device until you pay off your contract or unless you buy the device at full retail price.
An agreement that says "we may collect data about your phone" is not the same thing as "You give us permission to enter your phone at any time for any reason and collect whatever we want from your phone."
What app allows this one the phone? I will happily remove it.
GNRDuncan said:
An agreement that says "we may collect data about your phone" is not the same thing as "You give us permission to enter your phone at any time for any reason and collect whatever we want from your phone."
What app allows this one the phone? I will happily remove it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thats the thing. It does. Collecting data about the device, pretty much says that you give them the right to collect data about the device. This does include apps installed. IT is not as simple as an app. IT is built into the OS.
zelendel said:
You might not have noticed but you agree to it on every android device. ITs all part of troubleshooting system issues. Heck Google can even remotely remove apps from your device. Carriers in the US have far more control over the device because you dont tech own the device until you pay off your contract or unless you buy the device at full retail price.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Google is not the same thing as a Telecom provider.
Google makes your OS, a Telco just provides you with access to the network. There's a very large difference.
It's like the Ministry of Infrastructure being able to see your car's logs. The manufacturer can read out the car's system for troubleshooting, as they should, but the government branch that pours asphalt on roads has no business seeing what kind on music I listen to in my car!
Who am I kidding, the US Ministry of Infrastructure probably has recordings from how awful people sing in their cars synced to the exact GPS coordinate for every word.
Maybe I should explain that European devices are not truly Branded? The only branding they have are logos, tunes and a few apps that you can freely remove or add through the online appstores as well.
A lot of users have a SIMonly contract (just a SIM) and buy their devices, without any connection to their provider, in an independent store.
The whole system US providers have with their own privately locked devices that don't even allow eachother's 4G network, that's illegal here.
zelendel said:
Thats the thing. It does. Collecting data about the device, pretty much says that you give them the right to collect data about the device. This does include apps installed. IT is not as simple as an app. IT is built into the OS.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Your laws are very, very terrifying. No wonder the USA is such a bloody mess....
I thought the spying on citizens for money, corruption and dirty business practises wasn't that bad, but it seems I've had a very naive view of the USA. I'm utterly grateful I never followed my childhood dream of emigrating to the USA. They're one step away from a totalitarian corporate government... I'm starting to see why so many people keep referencing Skynet... The plot in Continuum (the TV show) is far more present-day and far less futuristic, it seems...
Over here "we may collect data about your phone" does not mean "We have the complete legal right to read everything you do, watch, install and write on your phone".
They must specify exactly what data, how they collect it and what they use it for, and any deviation from those specifications results in a hefty fine or even a suspension of business rights.
They're only allowed to look at your phone, not in it. They can't even connect your dialed numbers to your in-phone contacts on the bill. Even in their own app, you have to give explicit permission for that link.
zelendel said:
Thats the thing. It does. Collecting data about the device, pretty much says that you give them the right to collect data about the device. This does include apps installed. IT is not as simple as an app. IT is built into the OS.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Your interpretation of the term differs radically from my own.
Luckily we have AOSP, so if we know where the code that allows this is located we can remove it. Any ideas where to start looking? I'm new to all of this, but it would be worth getting into it if we really have to waste our time protecting ourselves from the businesses we have to patronize in order to function in a modern society.
ShadowLea said:
Google is not the same thing as a Telecom provider.
Google makes your OS, a Telco just provides you with access to the network. There's a very large difference.
It's like the Ministry of Infrastructure being able to see your car's logs. The manufacturer can read out the car's system for troubleshooting, as they should, but the government branch that pours asphalt on roads has no business seeing what kind on music I listen to in my car!
Who am I kidding, the US Ministry of Infrastructure probably has recordings from how awful people sing in their cars synced to the exact GPS coordinate for every word.
Maybe I should explain that European devices are not truly Branded? The only branding they have are logos, tunes and a few apps that you can freely remove or add through the online appstores as well.
A lot of users have a SIMonly contract (just a SIM) and buy their devices, without any connection to their provider, in an independent store.
The whole system US providers have with their own privately locked devices that don't even allow eachother's 4G network, that's illegal here.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Oh I know. I generally dont buy US based devices even though I live here. Also our carriers here put their own version of the OS on the device. Loaded down with bloat ware and added code.
GNRDuncan said:
Your interpretation of the term differs radically from my own.
Luckily we have AOSP, so if we know where the code that allows this is located we can remove it. Any ideas where to start looking? I'm new to all of this, but it would be worth getting into it if we really have to waste our time protecting ourselves from the businesses we have to patronize in order to function in a modern society.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not that simple. AOSP is alot different then what comes on carrier devices. Carrier roms are closed sourced just like OEM roms like touchwiz, HTC sense and all the others.
Why do you think Verizon goes through such great pains to lock the bootloader. There is no way that I am aware of as they would just get the info from google as they collect the same info.
zelendel said:
Not that simple. AOSP is alot different then what comes on carrier devices. Carrier roms are closed sourced just like OEM roms like touchwiz, HTC sense and all the others.
Why do you think Verizon goes through such great pains to lock the bootloader. There is no way that I am aware of as they would just get the info from google as they collect the same info.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Google can't collect the data if the code that collects the data is removed.
GNRDuncan said:
Google can't collect the data if the code that collects the data is removed.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You could try but buy doing so you would lose all access to Google Apps. There is one project that I know of that is working to remove all Google stuff from Android. CM has the same plan but like I said you would lose all access to Google Apps in doing so. It's all part of just about every OS on the planet.
zelendel said:
Oh I know. I generally dont buy US based devices even though I live here. Also our carriers here put their own version of the OS on the device. Loaded down with bloat ware and added code.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Wise move!
They do add bloatware here, but all of it is just pre-installed apps that you can add and remove at your leisure. They're all apps that you can find on the Play Store (or Windows Marketplace, or Apple Store) and can install as a customer from another provider as well. The only code they're allowed to add is network optimisations.
They can't alter any of the system functions. Take the TNL firmware (T-Mobile NL), all it has is the My T-Mobile app and the T-Mobile logo+tune at boot. That's the entire branding. It's hardly worth the word 'Branding', all they did was slap a sticker on it and insert a businesscard, so to speak.
And you're free to just flash any other firmware, as flashing, rooting and using CustomROMS can't void the warranty due to the EU laws. Even KNOX 0x1 doesn't matter.
I do Samsung-based tech support for T-Mobile NL (which is why I know what they can and can't do here), and half my day consists of helping users flash the Unbranded firmware over the Branded one, through the official contact channels. Samsung will even do it for you if you take the device to a Service Center. Managed to wipe your IMEI? Take it to a Service Center with proof of purchase and they'll fix it for you in minutes. Sending in a device with a broken screen that has Cyanogenmod on it gets a new screen and returned to the customer under warranty.
The other half of my day is sometimes spend explaining to users why, due to privacy laws, a provider can't block an app or service from using up your data, and can't block malicious sms subscription services.
The EU council is filled with idiots, but they do have their moments. :laugh:
ShadowLea said:
Wise move!
They do add bloatware here, but all of it is just pre-installed apps that you can add and remove at your leisure. They're all apps that you can find on the Play Store (or Windows Marketplace, or Apple Store) and can install as a customer from another provider as well. The only code they're allowed to add is network optimisations.
They can't alter any of the system functions. Take the TNL firmware (T-Mobile NL), all it has is the My T-Mobile app and the T-Mobile logo+tune at boot. That's the entire branding. It's hardly worth the word 'Branding', all they did was slap a sticker on it and insert a businesscard, so to speak.
And you're free to just flash any other firmware, as flashing, rooting and using CustomROMS can't void the warranty due to the EU laws. Even KNOX 0x1 doesn't matter.
I do Samsung-based tech support for T-Mobile NL (which is why I know what they can and can't do here), and half my day consists of helping users flash the Unbranded firmware over the Branded one, through the official contact channels. Samsung will even do it for you if you take the device to a Service Center. Managed to wipe your IMEI? Take it to a Service Center with proof of purchase and they'll fix it for you in minutes. Sending in a device with a broken screen that has Cyanogenmod on it gets a new screen and returned to the customer under warranty.
The other half of my day is sometimes spend explaining to users why, due to privacy laws, a provider can't block an app or service from using up your data, and can't block malicious sms subscription services.
The EU council is filled with idiots, but they do have their moments. :laugh:
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah here that is not even close to being an option, I spent years working for Verizon Tech support. They try to void your warranty anyway possible. That is mostly due to the fact of the subsidized pricing for phones. Here you dont even really own the phone completely for almost 2 years after you get the device.
Service centers here are few and far between. All warranties go through the carrier. Carriers here love blocking apps. But then Like I said they have too much control over the devices.
zelendel said:
Yeah here that is not even close to being an option, I spent years working for Verizon Tech support. They try to void your warranty anyway possible. That is mostly due to the fact of the subsidized pricing for phones. Here you dont even really own the phone completely for almost 2 years after you get the device.
Service centers here are few and far between. All warranties go through the carrier. Carriers here love blocking apps. But then Like I said they have too much control over the devices.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The law changed here recently, nowadays the phone you buy with a subscription has to be charged separately. You basically buy the phone and split the payments over 2 years. You own it straight away, you can even sell it if you want, but you have to continue paying for it, even if you sell it, until you've paid it off. If you end the contract prematurely, you have to pay the remaining sum of the phone.
Warranty-based repairs here go through the shop you purchased it from. If you bought it directly from the provider, they handle the warranty. If you bought it from an independent shop or online store, (both of which also sell subscriptions with phones for the providers) they send it to Samsung. Even if you buy it with a subscription.
There are 12 Service Centers in the Amsterdam area alone. (They're not Samsung stores, we only have 2 of those (which is probably still quite a lot compared to the US, considering we only have 17 million inhabitants), but they're service points inside another store, often the stores of various providers. You can go there regardless of who you pay each months.)
(Sorry for the walls of text, I find these things very interesting xD)