As we all know the the Nexus S has VoIP/SIP support and can be turned into a wifi hotspot, does this mean it will also support wifi calling?
What exactly do you think voip/sip are!?
Sent from my GT-I9000 using Tapatalk
I've heard about it but I'm not really sure what it does exactly, that I'm here asking.
i'd be sold if this was able to do a uma-like wifi calling.
it'll probably do UMA/t-mobile wi-fi calling once someone ports the app over.
Yes, it will support Wifi calling. I have been running a beta GV with the sip stacks for about a month and works great.
VOIP and UMA are NOT the same thing. One might use Google voice which is VOIP but not UMA. I could care less about Voip but if the Nexus S can't do UMA it is a deal breaker and will just pick up the Mytouch 4G. Already sad that the Nexus isn't 4G and doesn't have external storage but with no UMA support I will just get the Mytouch and wait for gingerbread to make its way to that.
UMA would be nice, but i'm good without it, but i seriously think it'll get ported somehow.
i think what the original poster is getting at, will it be able to use the tmobile wifi calling app.
i have a nexus one with it now so i can make phone calls. i am interested in this as well because i really don't want to pay another provider to make calls on top of what i am currently paying tmobile.
I'm wondering the same thing and this is actually the only feature that has me wanting this phone if it does in fact allow wifi calling.
My Nexus one has a broken usb port and i've been forced to swap batteries the last few months while waiting for the first gingerbread phone to arrive. I was already hoping for so much more like 720p display, dual core, new ui, because it barely feels like it's an upgrade over my N1 as is.
When the official specs were announced I almost considered going to the iphone4 or Samsung Focus but I just can't do AT&T, lol.
Pretty sure G-Voice via VOIP would be better than the original wifi-calling app, anyway. I wasn't all that impressed with the wifi-calling app on N1, honestly.
How so? The T-Mobile app is free and uses your minutes from the calling plan. Gvoice requires payment ontop of your calling plan. I don't want to pay twice for the same service.
Sent from my Nexus One using XDA App
emctwo said:
VOIP and UMA are NOT the same thing. One might use Google voice which is VOIP but not UMA. I could care less about Voip but if the Nexus S can't do UMA it is a deal breaker and will just pick up the Mytouch 4G. Already sad that the Nexus isn't 4G and doesn't have external storage but with no UMA support I will just get the Mytouch and wait for gingerbread to make its way to that.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If you want uma you will have to get a blackberry, currently the android devices just have gan.
makelegs said:
Pretty sure G-Voice via VOIP would be better than the original wifi-calling app, anyway. I wasn't all that impressed with the wifi-calling app on N1, honestly.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Wifi calling sucked on the n1, the only device that was usable was the mt4g
robot_agenda said:
How so? The T-Mobile app is free and uses your minutes from the calling plan. Gvoice requires payment ontop of your calling plan. I don't want to pay twice for the same service.
Sent from my Nexus One using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I've been using google voice for a year, and I've never paid a dime for anything. Unless you know something I don't know about some new service fee for g-voice when used in concert with VOIP, you may wanna re-assess g-voice altogether. It's flippin' AWESOME!.....
....AND FREE!!!
In all fairness, though.... call quality on the wifi app was poor for me. Volume was really low. Could be the fact that I was using an N1 hacked version, but I doubt it. If g-voice is only using the data you already paid for, then I don't see how it could cost anymore. Maybe I'm missing something though.
robot_agenda said:
How so? The T-Mobile app is free and uses your minutes from the calling plan. Gvoice requires payment ontop of your calling plan. I don't want to pay twice for the same service.
Sent from my Nexus One using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
GVoice doesn't require any payments. Calls to USA & Canada are free. Any other country have their rates, however. We still don't know how exactly is the VoIP implemented on the Nexus S, so can't say how it'll work as of now.
greenstuffs said:
If you want uma you will have to get a blackberry, currently the android devices just have gan.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
UMA and GAN are the same thing...in 2005 UMA specs were incorporated into the 3GPP rel. 6 specs and were renamed "Generic Access Network" or GAN.
The current list of phones that are UMA/GAN can be found here at
www .umatoday.com/smartphones.php
Currently the Nexus S is not there but that could just be because it is not out yet. Just have to see if after the release date if they update the list
Superfrag said:
GVoice doesn't require any payments. Calls to USA & Canada are free. Any other country have their rates, however. We still don't know how exactly is the VoIP implemented on the Nexus S, so can't say how it'll work as of now.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If I was able to figure out how to use Google Voice to make calls over wireless LAN with mobile number, that will be a good alternative to wifi calling.
Wifi calling works fine on Vibrant
Blackberry supports wifi to cell handoff, Android handsets don't. Not sure whether Android is technically UMA or not. Either way the key is being able to receive calls over wifi. If you're stuck in the bowels of some massive office building and you have zero signal, being able to receive text messages and calls fluidly would be awesome. Especially if they're able to call or text to your regular number.
mingkee said:
If I was able to figure out how to use Google Voice to make calls over wireless LAN with mobile number, that will be a good alternative to wifi calling.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
GVoice on Android isn't VoIP, it just routes through your GVoice number. You need a SIP account like Gizmo5 etc to set it up. GVoice in GMail on your desktop IS VoIP. Hopefully they bring something like that soon..
As for how SIP/VoIP calling will work on the Nexus S, we'll just have to wait a few more days to find out, with concrete details.
Related
With my 30 free days of Sprint service coming to an end soon I wanted to use my Evo on T-Mobiles network. I tested making and recieving calls and sms through SIP and Google voice on my home network and it works great, all thats left is to tether the Evo to my G1. To my surprise it does not work.
What will it take to get the Evo to recognize Ad-Hoc networks? Cyanogen's roms can do this.
Teh Dust said:
To reduce the ammount of WTF T-Mobile responses and clarify what I am trying to do. Here is a quick overview.
I got my Evo at I/O, it came with a month of Sprint service and that month is almost up. I do not want to switch to Sprint nor do I want to stop using this great device so I have found a way to use the phone without a carrier.
What needs to be done first is making and recieving calls. The Google Voice app does not currently allow calls to be placed over wifi so I need a work around for this. The work arround is to tie my Google Voice number to my Gizmo5 account which will let me access Google Voice via SIP. I then use the app SIPDroid to access my Gizmo5 account and make calls from Google Voice over Wifi. Done.
Next is SMS. Google Voice for Android allows you to make and place SMS over Wifi. Done.
Lastly is data. The Evo has wifi. Done.
With all of this I can use the phone compleatly over a WiFi network. But now I want to make the phone mobile.
I have a G1 on T-Mobile's network. It is rooted and running a custom build which allows me to do nothing but use the phone as a WiFi hotspot for a good day on the battery. The app being used to tether is WiFi Tether for Root Users.
The problem is the G1's hotspot is Ad-Hoc and currently the Evo (Stock Android in general.) can not connect to Ad-Hoc networks without modifications such as the ones done in Cyanogen Mod. If theese mods are duplicated for a rom on the Evo I will be able to use my Evo where ever I go without the need of a carrier.
Hope that cleared everything up.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think there are a few threads around already talking about the EVO's lack of ability to connect to ad-hoc networks. I don't know of a fix as of yet though.
wait, what? you got the Evo to work on TMO? am I reading this wrong?
tyrnight said:
wait, what? you got the Evo to work on TMO? am I reading this wrong?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I got the evo to receive calls and sms over wifi. If I can tether it to the G1 than yes, it would be on T-Mo.
Teh Dust said:
I got the evo to receive calls and sms over wifi. If I can tether it to the G1 than yes, it would be on T-Mo.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
problem is, in this case, if your already using wifi for your connection, you cant use it for tethering.. its already in use for another purpose(wifi).
Im still astounded by the TMO effect in this thread.. since this is a CDMA phone and you would need a GSM phone to talk to TMO. So since the cell radio isn't used your gonna be out of luck unless you tether via USB or BT.
perhaps everyone is reading this wrong, ot its just me.
His evo is NOT on the TMO cellular network. Its not possible.
His calls and sms are through wifi probably google voice or a SIP provider. Through his home network, NOT TMO.
tmo uses GSM and EVO (sprint) uses CDMA.
to OP ive not tried ad-hoc with my phone so im sorry i have nothing to report to ya. GL
To reduce the ammount of WTF T-Mobile responses and clarify what I am trying to do. Here is a quick overview.
I got my Evo at I/O, it came with a month of Sprint service and that month is almost up. I do not want to switch to Sprint nor do I want to stop using this great device so I have found a way to use the phone without a carrier.
What needs to be done first is making and recieving calls. The Google Voice app does not currently allow calls to be placed over wifi so I need a work around for this. The work arround is to tie my Google Voice number to my Gizmo5 account which will let me access Google Voice via SIP. I then use the app SIPDroid to access my Gizmo5 account and make calls from Google Voice over Wifi. Done.
Next is SMS. Google Voice for Android allows you to make and place SMS over Wifi. Done.
Lastly is data. The Evo has wifi. Done.
With all of this I can use the phone compleatly over a WiFi network. But now I want to make the phone mobile.
I have a G1 on T-Mobile's network. It is rooted and running a custom build which allows me to do nothing but use the phone as a WiFi hotspot for a good day on the battery. The app being used to tether is WiFi Tether for Root Users.
The problem is the G1's hotspot is Ad-Hoc and currently the Evo (Stock Android in general.) can not connect to Ad-Hoc networks without modifications such as the ones done in Cyanogen Mod. If theese mods are duplicated for a rom on the Evo I will be able to use my Evo where ever I go without the need of a carrier.
Hope that cleared everything up.
I don't know if you have a Nexus One but I just checked and the EVO can tether to the Nexus One's FroYo hotspot feature (over 3G).
Sprint
I think the reasoning behind the ROM for the EVO not being able to do this is because Sprint plans to charge for this service down the road and so you would get an app either from them or the market but it would only allow connection if you paid for the service on your plan. Much like how carriers plan to charge to let your phone be a wifi hotspot.
I may be wrong but that makes sense to me, if they can make money off a feature, they will...
this is quite clever. i would interested in seeing how you setup gizmo5, sipdroid, google voice, etc to do all calls over WiFi. i have a gizmo5 account and google voice.
Teh Dust said:
The problem is the G1's hotspot is Ad-Hoc and currently the Evo (Stock Android in general.) can not connect to Ad-Hoc networks without modifications such as the ones done in Cyanogen Mod.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
im thinking of it going in the other direction, there is a mod for the EVO hopefully soon to be integrated to the wifi tether app which lets the EVO wifi tether work in infrastructure mode, outside of ad-hoc mode.
Could the G1 use this app or something similar to broadcast outside of ad-hoc mode on infrastructure mode? more devices would be able to use the G1 also ... just an idea.
the ability for the EVO to connect to infrastructure networks instead of just ad-hoc networks seems reasonable. perhaps somebody familar with cyanogen's work could look at porting this function over to the EVO?
Doesn't canceling your Sprint trial involve you returning the EVO? The subsidized cost you got in the phone was for signing up for service. No service means you return the phone or buy it at MSRP.
-------------------------------------
Sent via the XDA Tapatalk App
No.
The i/o phones were given out for free. Included was a free trial of unlimited data phone and sms until a certain date. June something. Your thinking of the 30-day money back guarantee, that you get if you bought your phone from sprint. Hope that helps.
I hooked up my new MT4G to wifi and it prompted and notified me of wi-fi calling.
Take a look at the picture attached
Pretty sweet finally a android with wifi calling!!!
Edit: This is not uma
above
excellent, wrong forum
bg
Wrong sub forum
I'm gonna go against the grain and say right forum.
Wrong descriptor though, it's not uma.
Technically it's not uma because it doesn't hand off to.and from the tower like blackberry... But I'm equally excited.. Tested and confirmed on mine as well
Sent from my SGH-T959 using XDA App
motorjonny said:
Technically it's not uma because it doesn't hand off to.and from the tower like blackberry... But I'm equally excited.. Tested and confirmed on mine as well
Sent from my SGH-T959 using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sorry for the wrong sub forum post. OOPS I forgot where I was.
I was unsure of the cellular handoff. Has it been confirmed that it doesn't hand off?
stoute said:
Sorry for the wrong sub forum post. OOPS I forgot where I was.
I was unsure of the cellular handoff. Has it been confirmed that it doesn't hand off?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes it has been. Can't find the source right now but Tmonews.com is where it was hottly discussed and proved to be right.
stoute said:
I hooked up my new MT4G to wifi and it prompted and notified me of wi-fi calling.
Take a look at the picture attached
Pretty sweet finally a android with UMA!!!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Please stop calling this UMA. It's not the same thing at all.
Wi-fi calling is a clever way to push people on to their own wifi infrastructure. Rather than continue to use cell tower bandwidth, you use your own broadband connection for both data and voice traffic. The best part (for them) is you still use your minutes.
Most people never bother setting up wifi on their phone, because they simply don't have to. The mobile network is available 24x7, and wifi eats battery life. Now, get to charge you *and* get you off their network at the same time.
Brilliant strategy, but I'll pass - I'm not paying T-Mobile to use my own bandwidth.
You would if you were somewhere you didn't have coverage. Or even better if you were out of the country and wanted to call back to a US number and only use your normal minutes and not pay for international roaming.
Sent from my SGH-T959 using XDA App
The app works great for me with crappy service in my house been waiting for it. Once you get close to the wifi range limit u get a pop-up warning you your call will be lost.
NexVision said:
The app works great for me with crappy service in my house been waiting for it. Once you get close to the wifi range limit u get a pop-up warning you your call will be lost.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The only problem I had was whsn walking away from work or my house it would drop the call vs the hand off like the blackberrys uma calling feature.
I also think we are all aware this is not a true uma. I will try to edit my op to correct.
Sent from my HTC Glacier using XDA App
Well if you do not want to use the service then dont or let me guess you are a Apple fanboy so will find something wrong with everything other than iPhone and ATT
I wonder if the txt messages will be routed via wifi as well ?
vikramdhani said:
I wonder if the txt messages will be routed via wifi as well ?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i read through the frequent questions in the wifi calling app... Confirmed that it does send messages through wifi!
motorjonny said:
i read through the frequent questions in the wifi calling app... Confirmed that it does send messages through wifi!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It is supposed to do mms sms calls as well as the usual internet and email.
Sent from my HTC Glacier using XDA App
This is a great feature, i'm just confused why they wouldn't build it to allow it to seamlessly handoff to cell towers.
That would b a hardware requirement and raise the cost.
Sent from my HTC Glacier using Tapatalk
dcam1075 said:
You would if you were somewhere you didn't have coverage. Or even better if you were out of the country and wanted to call back to a US number and only use your normal minutes and not pay for international roaming.
Sent from my SGH-T959 using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I used WiFi overseas for calling on my BB, and TMo came after me with a bunch of international calling minutes anyway. So unless they have changed their policy - be careful.
gaww said:
I used WiFi overseas for calling on my BB, and TMo came after me with a bunch of international calling minutes anyway. So unless they have changed their policy - be careful.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Were you calling US numbers?
gaww said:
I used WiFi overseas for calling on my BB, and TMo came after me with a bunch of international calling minutes anyway. So unless they have changed their policy - be careful.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I used my BB overseas this summer, mobile network off, wifi on. No extra charges.
Basically I'm wondering, if I could buy a WP7 phone (probably HD7) and use wifi for data and use apps for making calls and such over wifi. If not, I'm looking for WP7 on a prepaid service.
Thanks in advanced!
I can answer the first one but not the second one. I got both a samsung focus and a HTC inspire 4g.
For the first three weeks of ownership I keep the sim card in the HTC and used both wifi date and mifi data for the focus. now as for makeing calls on the focus using an app over wifi I haven't tried that yet. I do not know if there is an app for that nor have I looked for one. however, att's go phone now has a smart phone plan that you can also use. hope this helped
Thanks, but the GO Phone doesn't have any smart phones. It's OK, I'll look for some WP7 apps
EDIT: I think I'll just buy the full price HD7, and get skype. Thanks!
Before you go out wasted your money, you should know that currently there is no Skype for WP7. The API is not there yet to support any VoIP apps.
There's a google voice app...free version and paid are kinda the same. Main difference is a big one. Paid offers push notifications while the free version does not.
ms79723 said:
There's a google voice app...free version and paid are kinda the same. Main difference is a big one. Paid offers push notifications while the free version does not.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Google Voice uses your phone's voice minutes to communicate/dial out. You can't use it just over wi-fi.
foxbat121 said:
Before you go out wasted your money, you should know that currently there is no Skype for WP7. The API is not there yet to support any VoIP apps.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I know, but Microsoft bought Skype, so it's inevitable.
And is there Google Voice for WP7?
Google Voice is never designed to be VoIP, even on Android phones. Probably Google's way to not piss off carriers.
Mango will have socket API that is needed for VoIP apps. But with current schedule, you probably won't see such app until early next year.
According to Samsung's website the tablet can make phone calls...anyone knows how? I am in the US by the way. Thank you,
chogau1 said:
According to Samsung's website the tablet can make phone calls...anyone knows how? I am in the US by the way. Thank you,
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The version from best Buy cannot.
Sent from my HTC One X using xda premium
u got a link to featured voice calling? sounds to me like it may be some 3rd party app.
http://www.samsung.com/global/microsite/galaxytab2/7.0/features.html?type=find
Scroll down... clearly says voice calling...maybe the 3g version?
Anyway i found groove ip an app that works nicely
Image
I think you have to move to Brazil to make calls with your tablet.
Pp.
Delivered to you via microwave technology .
I believe it is only for the 3G version. You may be able to use your tablet though as a bluetooth speakerphone though if you have the wifi version, but don't hold me to that.
I can make voice Skype calls with no problem.... I would guess that you would need a radio for cellular use though..... I would buy a 3/4 g. Version to replace my phone, and if I could.
Sent from my GT-P3113 using Tapatalk 2
Well the voice calling goes over wifi or 3g, using like a VOIP service that allows to make cheap or free calls, Samsung advertise that service on their page and its nowhere to be found in the tablet. Anyway, a google voice account + groove ip can be used to call over wifi free to the us and canada, but its weird that they offer something and don't deliver
chogau1 said:
Well the voice calling goes over wifi or 3g, using like a VOIP service that allows to make cheap or free calls, Samsung advertise that service on their page and its nowhere to be found in the tablet. Anyway, a google voice account + groove ip can be used to call over wifi free to the us and canada, but its weird that they offer something and don't deliver
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The voice calling feature on the site is only for the 3G model. Do you have a 3G model? If not, then you are complaining about a feature the WiFi model never had. The model featured on Samsung's site is clearly the 3G version. If you don't like the tablet just because it can't make phone calls why not just take it back?
imnuts said:
The voice calling feature on the site is only for the 3G model. Do you have a 3G model? If not, then you are complaining about a feature the WiFi model never had. The model featured on Samsung's site is clearly the 3G version. If you don't like the tablet just because it can't make phone calls why not just take it back?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Clearly the 3g version? I dont think its clear at all in that web page...return for that? Not at all, not the main purpose of the tablet to make calls, just pointing a marketing tactic
It actually works quite well as a SIP phone, The WiFi version of the 7.7 has a Bluetooth phone profile by default, it is best used that way unless you want to use it as a speaker phone.
I have been told that tethered to a LTE razr it actually has better voice quality then the Verizon LTE codec.
But yes it doesn't come with an app as they tend to be branded for most consumer directed VIOP services.
I would by a 3g version, and replace my phone.... If it worked on tmo and was available. Fortunately for me, I bought mine from Costco, so I have a 90 day return period.
Sent from my HTC Sensation 4G with Beats Audio using Tapatalk 2
chogau1 said:
Clearly the 3g version? I dont think its clear at all in that web page...return for that? Not at all, not the main purpose of the tablet to make calls, just pointing a marketing tactic
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Maybe not specifically that one page, but their micro-site is meant for the 3G version. Go to specifications and it lists HSPA connectivity. Also, if you look at that one page, half of the images show 3G cell service. On the images page, it shows 3G cell service as well.
Here's some interesting news for those of us on Verizon. I wonder if this will be included in a future update from Motorola?
http://www.droid-life.com/2015/12/07/verizon-introduces-wifi-calling-tomorrow-to-the-galaxy-s6/
people on iphone for a while could use verizon messages to place wifi calls not sure about android you can try,and I would guess if verizon allows them then sure why not
what i would like to know if we are going to get it, seeing that we didn't get our phones from verizon.......
ct_tec313 said:
what i would like to know if we are going to get it, seeing that we didn't get our phones from verizon.......
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
We may...T-Mobile users have WiFi calling on this phone, dont they?
brholt6 said:
We may...T-Mobile users have WiFi calling on this phone, dont they?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Negative...
Sent from my Pure Moto X
YankInDaSouth said:
Negative...
Sent from my Pure Moto X
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ah, damn. I was thinking they did for some reason. Is that supposed to come with the eventual Band 12 update (which sounds like it might be 6.0.1, at least for the 6P)?
brholt6 said:
Ah, damn. I was thinking they did for some reason. Is that supposed to come with the eventual Band 12 update (which sounds like it might be 6.0.1, at least for the 6P)?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hope so, but I've not seen anything official from Motorola or T-Mobile.
Sent from my Pure Moto X
No reason for verizon to waste their time developing that for this phone when the have their own version of the phone to take care of.
Wifi calling is part of IMS, much like VoLTE. Doesn't really take much to go from VoLTE to Wifi calling. It just needs to be enabled. In some of the logs I have on 6.0, there are some IMS entries regarding VoLTE, VoWifi, ViLTE (Video over LTE), and ViWifi. Only VoLTE returns true back to the carrier.
Whether carriers will allow it is a different story altogether. Knowing Verizon, it'll be available only on Verizon branded devices (carrier variants). I wouldn't be surprised to see the Droid Turbo 2 getting VZW Wifi calling in 6.0.
I just got a cell signal booster from Verizon as my new house has little coverage. The rep informed me of WiFi calling coming but no exact time frame. So I had to spend $175 to purchase an already antiquated booster. Damn Verizon.
What's the difference between (carrier enabled) WiFi calling via the stock phone app versus calling someone via the Hangouts dialer app? Aren't they both essentially doing the same thing?
Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk
EdCarden said:
What's the difference between (carrier enabled) WiFi calling via the stock phone app versus calling someone via the Hangouts dialer app? Aren't they both essentially doing the same thing?
Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have found the Hangouts Dialer to be unreliable. Sometimes it sounds like you are drowning under water to the other party. It also doesn't seem to ring on incoming calls due to an IPv6 bug with Android, that Google refuses to fix...unless you root and disable IPv6.
jmileti said:
I just got a cell signal booster from Verizon as my new house has little coverage. The rep informed me of WiFi calling coming but no exact time frame. So I had to spend $175 to purchase an already antiquated booster. Damn Verizon.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I realize it's too late for you, but for others, if you're out of, or near the end of your contract, you can usually get them to send you a network extender for free. I called them a few years ago, and told them how my contract was almost up, and I was going to explore other providers, for better service. Once I said that, they offered to send me the extender at no charge.
EdCarden said:
What's the difference between (carrier enabled) WiFi calling via the stock phone app versus calling someone via the Hangouts dialer app? Aren't they both essentially doing the same thing?
Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Carrier Wifi calling extends the carrier network over Wifi, so you still receive calls/texts outside of your service area or deep underground. What they do is allow connections through untrusted Wifi APs and use a secure tunneling connection to their IMS framework via the internet. So, when someone calls your phone, it routes it back to your phone over the same connection and you get the call over Wifi.
whats the likelihood that we will get this working for us, any technical hurdles is this something once verizon gets to other phones will we be able to port it. just curious this will be the determining factor for me buying unlocked phones if verizon is going to screw us over i might just have to switch carriers.....