MobileCrunch are reporting that HTC threatens handset hackers with legal action for distributing ROMs.
http://ongoingissues.wordpress.com/2010/06/17/htc-threatens-handset-hackers-with-legal-action/
maybe we, the community should build a list of user, a signature of opposing people to the closure of the site. stating that the use of the ROMs is for the purpose of cooking our own ROMs and increase the usability, performance, and desirability of the HTC handsets.
Maybe HTC need to be made aware of how much their customer base relys on ROMs for development of the HTC Handsets, and possibly go as far as to list who wouldn't buy a handset without access to other ROMs.
If Froyo doesn't come to the Desire, I WILL be installing a modified ROM regardless of HTCs feelings, and if this becomes impossible, I WILL be changing to a different brand and boycott HTC from then on. I feel very strongly about the users right to modify their phone in any way they see fit.
I dont even use the roms but i appreciate the work and effort put into them on the chance that i might use them. I also love HTC hardware because of the huge communities developed and bought my Touch Pro 2 based on the outside support that exists and if it were to get taken down by HTC i would second guess my next purchase of a Touch Pro 3 (i know it doesnt exist but something along the lines).
And as far as recommendations of hardware this site alone has swayed alot of coworkers into buying HTC hardware knowing they can tweak there purchase if the need arises.
As a matter of fact, I am now using the HTC support contact form to tell them how wrong they are in promoting this action.
The main reason because of which I didn't buy a iloserphone but chose a WM device is that I can play with it as much as I want.
In that letter it also specifically says "...or of all infringing works derived from the Intellectual Property", which means basically CUSTOM roms, the ones we're all using.
First comes shipped-roms.com, then will be the turn of XDA which hosts links to said custom roms and/or stock roms, same goes for htcpedia and everything else.
If they want to shut themselves down by making their users hate their devices, their choice, but probably we ought to let them know they're just being stupid.
Here's the message I sent them via their website, I encourage you to write them in the big numbers.
Hi.
I am the happy owner of a HD2, and I really am satisfied this device. One of the reasons I am satisfied is because of its hardware specs, the other maybe more important one is that I can actually change the way it works to perfectly suit my needs. Otherwise, I could very well dump it for an iphone.
Now, I know that the person reading this message will be a support employee, and by no means anyone who actually makes the decisions, yet I stringly encourage you to forward this mail to the upper levels.
I just learned that HTC sent a C&D letter to shipped-roms.com.
I know the legal mumbo-jumbo HTC is all about on that decision and I don't need any of that.
I also know another thing: excluding the people who buy your devices just because they were bundled with some dataplan by some carrier, and have no clue how to really use them other than as simple phones, there is a LARGE part of people, including myself, who buy your devices because they like the way they can be customized and how they can be made so much more powerful than what they came out of the store.
If you start acting against websites that allow us "power users" to get the most out of our phones, then it's like you're acting against your customers, and that is a very silly thing.
I can easily see how this kind of action could be taken further, against other leading community websites dedicated to your devices.
If and when you will do that, you will repay the dedication of your customers with legal threats, and you will instantly lose the interest in your products by the same people that now love them for the reasons I explained in this letter.
Please think carefully about it.
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ephestione said:
As a matter of fact, I am now using the HTC support contact form to tell them how wrong they are in promoting this action...
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Thanks! I'm doing the same right now. Apple is not a loser in the game, they dont shut down websites of so-called "hackers" who tweak, crack and write programs which jailbreak their iPhone, and they could just do it, they have plenty of reason to do it BUT only one NOT to do it: $!
I told you, Apple is not so stupid... unlike HTC who shoots itself in the head!(hoping the damages will be soft?) Really silly...
Edit: here's mine:
It recently came to my knowledge that HTC sent a C&D letter to the website shipped-roms.com and if this is true, and you are serious about it, please do re-consider your decision. As a proud owner of an UNBRANDED HTC HD2, HTC BLACKSTONE AND HTC DIAMOND 2, I am asking you to not bother the core of your business: without the shipped roms and the subsequent custom roms from it, I, just like hundreds of thousands of HTC owners around the world (just look at the membership of various forums offering custom roms), would not have bought an HTC device. Why we did buy it was the possibility to modify it to fit our needs, this includes by the means of custom roms too, but not only. If you take this from us, you're left with the "carriers dependant" customers who are, by far, the minority of your customers. If you're serious in taking down websites that make us buy your devices, you will have to face the consequences because without shipped rom, we will just jump ship! As you already know, the competition is tough so you better think this legal action twice if you don't want the value of your shares to melt like snow at the beginning of spring.
I have no words about what HTC is doing. I totally agree with ephestione, and if xda-developers did not exist (or any other similar forum), I would not have an WM Smartphone, as the stock ROMs are normally slow, many times out dated, and not suited for my needs.
I hope that HTC understands that sites like these are the BEST PUBLICITY that they can get fro their devices. You have people working for FREE to make the device better, what else can they ask for?
Instead of promoting, cooperating with the main chefs, and using it to their advantage, they prefer to drag them to the court, and shut them down!!!!
They already void your guarantee when you flash a custom ROM, so I can't see how initiatives like this can cost them more money.
I hope they realize that soon, and save their faces by gracefully changing their position.
I do not say, approve, but at least look the other way
I hope more people will join this cause.
Android is opensource so remove all htc apps in ROM and host htc apps @ mediafire
I Support you if its possible. How about a open letter to htc in Taiwan? I can write a letter as PDF and share it here.
Maybe we should download all of those ROMS an reupload the on a sharehoster only to start a thread with the collection of links over here? Or Maybe a thread in every Device-specific forum?
Thoughts? Want to participate?
How dumb are HTC?
It is the ability to use cooked roms that has helped me tolerate the flaws in WM over the years.
Without the offending roms I would have stopped buying HTC phones years ago. IMHO they should be encouraging the chefs.
They've gone all APPLE!!!
If they persist with this I might as well buy an i-prat and just jailbreak it.
Although slightly off topic I see the WM7 wont allow Sense etc, will HTC still be on their hobby horse. (from what I have read elsewhere it was people messing with sense that p1$$ed them off).
Can some one Post the E-Mail Address /Contact to take my part (and hopefully others) in this ridicules process?
I want to tell them how stupid that is...
Maybe I should switch over to IPhone... if you can't customize it at least works better out of the box!
Dino Crisis said:
Can some one Post the E-Mail Address /Contact to take my part (and hopefully others) in this ridicules process?
I want to tell them how stupid that is...
Maybe I should switch over to IPhone... if you can't customize it at least works better out of the box!
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http://www.htc.com/www/CS_Mail.aspx
Germany Deutsch +49-692-222-7334
Mon - Sat 09:00 - 18:00 (Mon - Fri) 09:00 - 13:00 (Sat)
upload all ROM's to multiupload.com
but my upload speed sucks
acky85 said:
http://www.htc.com/www/CS_Mail.aspx
Germany Deutsch +49-692-222-7334
Mon - Sat 09:00 - 18:00 (Mon - Fri) 09:00 - 13:00 (Sat)
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Thanks
Have sent email....
what do you send? can i use ur text? My english sucks
another site where I posted a modified version of ephestiones letter (thanks for that!) is http://www.htc.com/www/about_htc_bymail.aspx
EMail addresses I found are
[email protected]
[email protected]
[email protected]
HTH, Franky
No cooks, no buy
I wouldn't have bought my HTC Rhodium if there weren't custom ROMs available for it. None of the stock HTC ROMs are any good compared to custom ROMs. HTC should thank the chefs for taking their half finished ROMs and making them usable, because it's the chefs who are helping HTC to sell more phones.
That's one hell of a shot in the foot you've got there...
[RANT] This has to be without doubt one of the daftest actions HTC have ever taken against anyone...
"Hello loyal customers....... We'd like you to go to jail please! "
I heartly agree with everyone on here so far, the main reason I bought my HD2 was because of the custom ROMs on here. (Infact it got reflashed before I even put the SIM in! )
I steer clear of everything Apple because I like to be able to customise what I want, how I want. If HTC are getting all edgy because they're promoting diversity, then they should jump in the iBandwagon and I'll go back to using my Nokia.
I can say with 100% truth, if it wasn't for XDA-Dev's I wouldn't have had 6 HTC's by now. [/RANT]
Dear HTC, as a legal and loyal owner of multiple HTC devices (Vodafone magic x2, Telstra desire, Telstra hd2 and Vodafone legend) I am entitled to download any updates for these devices. As such I would like shipped-roms.com to maintain my copy for safe keeping. Seeing as you do not maintain a public copy of historical roms for unsupported devices I believe this is a suitable compromise. Also this way there is no cost to your company.
If wish to continue on this misguided attack I will dispose of these devices, buy a competitors product and never buy or recommend your product to anyone.
Yours Sincerely,
JJ
They have a forum too
HTC's official site has a forum too.
http://community.htc.com/na/htc-forums/f/87.aspx
Check the forum before posting, make sure you pick the right place for your country or maybe we can all post in the same forum. Also, if we do let's just keep a single thread over at their forums. No sense in flooding them, that will just get the threads deleted.
I hope HTC has more sense(pun intended) than to lose distinction between piracy and a huge group of fans that can only benefit them.
I am on my 5th WM HTC device and it is basically because of you guys that I have kept on going with them. I can't imagine having all this fun tweaking, prodding, and modifying any other phones.
Android should be safe... but...
This really does suck. From my understanding and previous history with scrappy unsupported phones from other OEMs, even if I did stick to WM, I would have gone out of my way to get an HTC phone, because of this site and the work that gets done here.
Fortunately, I went with a Nexus One running android so aside from the appropriated Desire keyboard, there really isn't anything that's HTC specific app wise. Also tack on the fact that Android is covered by GPL if I'm not mistaken so that should shield at least the Android development hacks. But who knows really. It could also be a licensing issue with WM specifically that may have triggered this. WM licensing is something truly weird as none of it is really visible to the end user and is usually agreed upon between OEM and carrier.
I just hope this doesn't spread to here. XDA is the central hub of making smartphones actually smart.
Related
Hi
i was just reading a thread entitled 'are we all running a pirated version of WM6 on our wizards'
and it got me thinking.
theres a legal grey area surrounding xda-devs, namely, the roms that have been placed onto the ftp/forums that are the 'intellectual property' or whatever of microsoft as they were initially intended to be run as 'beta' builds despite being HEAVILY modified by the great members of this community.
so, i thought......
Why doesnt www.xda-developers.com sit down with someone from HTC and similar to how Orange or Cingular are re-branding HTC devices, why don't Xda-Devs setup their OWN OEM company.
HTC *could* (in an ideal world) sell the devices onto xda-devs or an affiliate with the devices set-up as having Super-CID, sim-unlock and being able to run unofficial code on them.
the biggest problem i think HTC have with releasing builds of OS's to the masses is the simple fact that a lot 'joe bloggs'' will ring up MS moaning about how their phone doesnt work...
but, what if the xda-devs company's contract states that the devices are sold with NO support, apart from any support provided from the forums/community at large. this way, nobody would be ringing up HTC as presumably you would have to have found this site, have a little know-how and know what you would be buying from the xda-devs company.
that way, HTC could itself release builds of the OS's to xda-devs for xda-devs to then modify, patch and optimise. this build can then be released to the masses by HTC as a stable build. HTC could as a result of this collaboration sell the devices to xda-devs at a lower cost.
i admit, it sounds a little far-fetched, but im bored and looking for a point of discussion! it could be done though i think, all you'd have to do is find some investors to buy the initial devices to sell- and of course some way to clear this with HTC!
discuss!lol\
While in concept it isn't a bad idea, I've got to point out one major flaw of humanity... our need to place blame.
Selling an unsupported device, be it new or old takes away the ability to blame someone when things go wrong.
However, some sort of support could be offered in the form of:
1. If flashing your device to the original ROM it came with doesn't fix the problem then the issue is 99% of the time hardware related. Call HTC for warranty service, within 1 year of course.
2. I bricked my phone, bootloader doesn't work thus I can't flash it. Same warranty applies.
Anything else is customer's fault, you're on your own.
Of course this could only work with GSM or rather SIM enabled devices. ESN based devices couldn't be part of this venture. Don't know about other CDMA countries out there, but at least in the US Sprint will CATEGORICALLY REFUSE to register an ESN that is not in their database, whereas Verizon will, but you've got to sweet talk the store manager.
Still, even with these little clauses this whole thing is a huge class action lawsuit just waiting to happen.
Although this would be grate for us, as far as the commercial parties are concerned there is a ton of problems with this idea:
a) HTC pays M$ for every copy of WM based on the components they include.
So you still can't legally cook your own ROM.
b) This would get HTC in trouble with every brand and telco they deal with.
c) This will significantly prolong the life of the devices and reduce profits for HTC.
d) xda-dev is not a commercial body and is in no position (I am stating this from what I know of the site, official comment is left to the management) to make any official order for HTC to even consider.
But the project you describe already exists, it just does not run M$ crap:
www.openmoko.com
i mean, everything on this site is pretty much microsoft, which should create some copyright issues.
they are just happy to find a place where winmo doesn't get bashed constantly
duude said:
i mean, everything on this site is pretty much microsoft, which should create some copyright issues.
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LOL, your first post and you have a pop at this site?
You dont work for MS do you
GREAT first post.
anyway.
They tolerate it because we don't personally host anything and yes, we do make windows mobile better.
Also, this site actively opposes software theft, (warez and others like it,) which is the bulk of any copyright problems. It spreads goodwill towards Microsoft, believe it or not; if users have problems with standard Microsoft software, they don't have to just sit there and be unhappy, it can be tweaked. By doing so, people are happier with their Microsoft-driven equipment, and more likely to keep using it than changing to something else. There are countless people on this site who would tell you that without this site, they might not be using a Windows-driven phone.
It is also free tech-support for Microsoft, which saves them loads of money.
LOL duude...are u an attorney or do u own an iphone?
m$ knows better to keep this site alive. its their faults we are tweakin up and makin it better. beside...you never know...this draws a lot and i mean a lot of ppl towards m$. so i m pretty much sure the revenue keeps em' happy
yesod7 said:
There are countless people on this site who would tell you that without this site, they might not be using a Windows-driven phone
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One here!!!
microsoft never sold wm to any end user
and this site never taken part in porting wm to a device that dident came with it
more because of the close to impossibility of doing so
so as ms still get their licensense from the manufactors
and better rep with users who can get more out of their devices then just
depending on what the manfucators give before they forget about older devices
and move on to their new stuff
more wm phone owners keep getting new wm devices rather then moving to iphones or symbian devices so
it helps ms out alot in their quest of getting a larger % of the market
Plus, along with the free tech ehlp, the improving of current phones, we all know new htc phones will be tweaked cooked and stuff, so buy another phone. so XDA not only saves tehm money, but actually gains them money
It's because of this site that I'm looking at the Windows Mobile platform for my next phone rather than traditional Nokia, Sony Ericsson (other than x1), or even the iPhone..... actually come to think of it, without the exisitence of this site EVER, I would get an iPhone 3G right away.
you will see that in the coming future microsoft will be incorporating programs and devs that were created through this site to their platform. There was once a time when microsoft tried to shut it down when they realised that the site actually brings more people to microsoft and keeps them there.
LOL! I was going to post something else, but I'm pretty sure everybody has already said it, or thinks it! To much good comes from this site! Think about it, how many users of this site are now WM users for good and will always be sold on the next best WM platform because of this site.
yesod7 said:
Also, this site actively opposes software theft, (warez and others like it,) which is the bulk of any copyright problems. It spreads goodwill towards Microsoft, believe it or not; if users have problems with standard Microsoft software, they don't have to just sit there and be unhappy, it can be tweaked. By doing so, people are happier with their Microsoft-driven equipment, and more likely to keep using it than changing to something else. There are countless people on this site who would tell you that without this site, they might not be using a Windows-driven phone.
It is also free tech-support for Microsoft, which saves them loads of money.
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Yup, that's it.
TheChampJT said:
LOL! I was going to post something else, but I'm pretty sure everybody has already said it, or thinks it! To much good comes from this site! Think about it, how many users of this site are now WM users for good and will always be sold on the next best WM platform because of this site.
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Amen to that!
Why haven't they done anything?
because nobody there is smoking crack
Would you close down a site that gets people talking about your products ? that is full of people writing programs that enhances the usability of your products? that's a great place to see some ideas you might steal for later versions of your OS.
This is free R&D!
duude said:
i mean, everything on this site is pretty much microsoft, which should create some copyright issues.
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Alas, I saw this differently with others. I think the question is very out of topic since this is an All-HTC-Devices forum, not an M$ WM forum. It's only 'coincidence' that after these years, HTC always used WM as their OS.
If HTC decided in the future that they will build their own OS, or maybe use Android, then it may trigger M$ to reconsider its stance against this forum. Especially, when we -as always- try to improve our experience with the devices, do it by porting some parts (drivers/softwares) from WM to other OS, or vice versa. Then the issue may be valid.
Btw, I don't know but do you all think it's safe -legally and/or morally- to port other vendor/ODM's part (drivers/softwares/etc) into our HTC devices? I ask this because I saw many attempts already...
I don't know the exact number of people on this site, but I do know that there are a whole lot of people on this site. My point for that last sectence is "would you destroy a site that has FREE workers helping your company out to better there products and gain more money"
Yes, we might receive applications before they are release, but honestly where do you really think we receive those from uuuummmm?
So again, if I was a big company I would never touch this site because I will pass my software to this site let eveyone play with it and then I would know where all the bugs are at. So then I will fix it and then sale it.
There might be alot of poeple on this site but I think MS has a lot more customers that don't even know that this site is even alive.
There you go my 2 cents.
gsessons said:
I don't know the exact number of people on this site, but I do know that there are a whole lot of people on this site. My point for that last sectence is "would you destroy a site that has FREE workers helping your company out to better there products and gain more money"
Yes, we might receive applications before they are release, but honestly where do you really think we receive those from uuuummmm?
So again, if I was a big company I would never touch this site because I will pass my software to this site let eveyone play with it and then I would know where all the bugs are at. So then I will fix it and then sale it.
There might be alot of poeple on this site but I think MS has a lot more customers that don't even know that this site is even alive.
There you go my 2 cents.
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and if the truth be known, they (M$) are happy that the masses dont know., in truth, the people on this site contain more knowledge and expertise than all of m$ combined as far as HTC handsets are concerned and how to tweak and tune the software to ACTUALLY work. it could be perceived as (truth) the Big companies are just mass clearing houses of useless data they can sell for a profit. how many of us came here for the first time only looking for useable software programs? how many of us came here for the first time trying to find a solution to an OEM problem?
M$ has found a truly unique forum in the world of r&d., although probably more out of frustration than than anything else, the majority of talented people here could teach this stuff to most of the employees at m$ about these devices and how they work and why.
I would be very surprised if they didnt have a staff of several people working there monitoring and testing to roms and software packages developed or tweaked through this site. they would have to be unbelieveably arrogant to think this is a bad thing for business, and we all know who one of the richest men and companies in the world is dont we. he didnt just fall off the truck so to speak, he understands..............economics!
With all of that in mind can anyone understand why pocket development is not possible on Visual studio express editions (free).
Isn't that a shoot on the foot? I think so.
I think that a platform with a lot of developers is much more appeling, and then seel more. Only a opinion from someone that will never buy a iphone.
Reason for my question? This: http://www.engadget.com/2009/07/22/htc-adopting-android-on-50-of-its-handsets-in-2010/
Going to quite a few iPhone topics here (and made one myself), I know that a lot of you guys here seem to love WinMo (at least more than OSX), so seeing this piece of news was kind of interesting.
As we all know and as the article reiterates, the vast majority of current HTC phones are WinMo-based. The rumor is that it's eventually going to go down to 50%-based with the other 50% being Android. Of course, it's a rumor, but the articles states that HTC is already on the way to being 30% Android-based, so how unlikely is it really?
Now let me go a bit further: As it is, HTC is currently 90% WinMo-based. With the speed at which they seem to be moving (2% to 50% Android-based in one year?), who is to say they won't eventually be 90% Android-based? If this does happen, though, as we see now, XDA could easily simply add the Android-based phones with little issue. On the other hand, as we also see now with Android-based phones, the design may become more limited instead of the numerous designs available for WinMo-based phones.
But...would you guys continue to purchase HTC phones? Is your love of HTC phones all dependent upon the support of XDA-developers or can you simply not switch from WinMo?
Personally, I am pretty OS independent. I can work with any phone. However, if I do have to switch from WinMo, then I would prefer to switch to either iPhone (yeah, yeah, I know) or the Palm Pre (WebOS' increasing popularity and great usability). As it is, I'm not very interested in Android, and Google...has done/say a few things in the past to make me doubt if they'll give proper support to Android. So personally, if HTC does switch to being almost completely Android-based, then truthfully, I probably would not continue purchasing HTC.
ofcourse.
however, i am not "loyal" to any OS or company. whoever makes the best device that suits my needs gets the money.
Well
They would increase their Android models but WM will still be there, so it´s just another option to stay with HTC
Personally I think Android can be good in the future, when they achieve a more mature and solid OS, meantime I´m with WM and of course HTC
crazy talk said:
ofcourse.
however, i am not "loyal" to any OS or company. whoever makes the best device that suits my needs gets the money.
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Well, I wasn't referring to company/OS loyalty; my apology if I gave that impression. What I really meant was a question of how much one likes using Windows Mobile vs how much one likes XDA support.
As I said, I'm presuming there's a certain number of people here who likes WinMo, so I'm trying to gauge how many people would stick with HTC in the case of such a large move. From your post, I'm assuming you'll go with the best device regardless of OS or XDA support, though?
orb3000 said:
They would increase their Android models but WM will still be there, so it´s just another option to stay with HTC
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True, but I'm guessing one's choices may also become a bit more limited if HTC's Android support increases even further. Look at HTC's list of Android-based phones now. If you happen to not like any of the *three* choices, whether it be due to design, specs, or whatever other reason, then you're pretty much out of luck, aren't you?
On the other hand, if you don't like one HTC WinMo-based phone, you literally have a dozen other choices in various designs and specs to fit your desire.
My Understanding is that MS doesn’t work and listen well with the manufacturer. There are many complains on current WinMo capabilities and how time consuming it is to write application for it. Furthermore complains also go in to the development speed of the WM7 which no one knows anything about it. Therefore some HTC press release could be aiming of putting serious pressure to MS. Furthermore been only on WinMo leads HTC very depended on MS. I believe that is very important point by certain negotiations between HTC and MS.
Therefore it is only understandable that HTC starting put more weight on a second pillar. Besides developing own OS the Android is the best option for HTC for shaping and driving an Operation Platform for their Devices.
Anyhow that Large Companies like HTC, Samsung and some others paying serious attention to Android indicating very bright future for Android. It is most likely now that those companies will speed up the process growing young OS to maturate. WinMo and MS is really under pressure now, if Wm7 doesn’t bring the expected wowww change then it will no other way then to say... Good bye WinMo
Not sure if I really need another OS in the mix. I wouldn't mind a device that can do both Android and WinMo but only Android ... probably not. Then I might as well make the jump to the iPhone.
I certainly wouldn't rule out Android. As somebody who uses a lot of Google's webservices, Android has a definite appeal. There's a few WM-specific apps I'd miss, but the app ecosystem for Android will only improve as time goes one.
However, I've been pretty darn happy with Microsoft's direction lately (Win 7, Zune, and the Xbox 360 are all great products). I wouldn't buy another WM6 device, but I'm definitely going to be following WM7 closely.
I still think HTC has some of the best ID guys in the business (aesthetically I prefer the TD2 and TP2 to anything on the market) and they're very talented and making software tweaks, but they really need to raise the bar for hardware specs and quality if they want me to keep buying HTC devices, regardless of the OS.
edit: And agreeing with coolVariable, I'd love a device that could easily be configured to run either natively. That would be an instant sale from me. I have a feeling MS's licensing wouldn't make it easy, though.
I'd switch in a heartbeat to anything different from HTC/WinMo as long as it's available on my Sprint SERO plan.
Bulldog said:
My Understanding is that MS doesn’t work and listen well with the manufacturer. There are many complains on current WinMo capabilities and how time consuming it is to write application for it.
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Hmm, if this is the case, it may explain partly why HTC is betting so much on Android so suddenly. To be honest, if it is the case, I wouldn't be surprised either. I've seen similar techniques employed by other companies in other industries recently too.
Still, corporate shenanigans or not, 50% still seems like a massive shift to me, but I'm guessing the plan might change if their 2009 30% path becomes bumpy.
coolVariable said:
Not sure if I really need another OS in the mix. I wouldn't mind a device that can do both Android and WinMo but only Android ... probably not. Then I might as well make the jump to the iPhone.
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Both Android and WinMo? You mean sort of a dual boot deal or simply a device that can install either Android or WinMo roms? That would be fantastic; I think we can all agree on that. I think we can all agree too that it's unlikely.
8525Smart said:
True, but I'm guessing one's choices may also become a bit more limited if HTC's Android support increases even further. Look at HTC's list of Android-based phones now. If you happen to not like any of the *three* choices, whether it be due to design, specs, or whatever other reason, then you're pretty much out of luck, aren't you?
On the other hand, if you don't like one HTC WinMo-based phone, you literally have a dozen other choices in various designs and specs to fit your desire.
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I don´t think so, there are so many models with WM to choose from, and there will be more coming.
The actual number of Andorid models is low, and as you said, it will increase, but that is good so more options will be available.
As I said, I´ll stick to HTC WM models, at least in following 2 years...Then we can see what is Android doing and perhaps I can consider...
Great thread!
I think I will continue buying HTC phones even if there was a large Android base, even more than 50%. I like Android and all, and maybe in the future I may even take one myself, but WM is so customizable and i have it just the way i like it and wouldnt change it for anything (except for a newer more powerful device maybe tegra/snapdragon which im holding out for)
I have to give credit where credit is due: if it wasn't for this site, my tp may have been my first and last winmo phone. I wouldnt have the functionality and great experience that i do now without the help of the folks here.
BTW, I think this thread would benefit greatly from a poll, as many dont have the time to post, but everyone has time to vote.
orb3000 said:
I don´t think so, there are so many models with WM to choose from, and there will be more coming.
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Click to collapse
Yes, currently, but if HTC does shift to majority Android-based phones, then the number of WinMo-based models will inevitably go down (in favor of Android-based models instead), which will then result in a lack of choices.
Nonetheless, I do agree with you. If Android eventually shows more promise, I would reconsider too, but at this point, I still prefer to switch to OSX/WebOS if I have to leave WinMo.
euphoria47 said:
BTW, I think this thread would benefit greatly from a poll, as many dont have the time to post, but everyone has time to vote.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hmm, you're right. I don't know how I missed that simple bit of fact. Unfortunately, I think it's a bit late for me to make a poll now.
P.S. Thank you for the compliment.
8525Smart said:
Well, I wasn't referring to company/OS loyalty; my apology if I gave that impression. What I really meant was a question of how much one likes using Windows Mobile vs how much one likes XDA support.
As I said, I'm presuming there's a certain number of people here who likes WinMo, so I'm trying to gauge how many people would stick with HTC in the case of such a large move. From your post, I'm assuming you'll go with the best device regardless of OS or XDA support, though?
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Click to collapse
i knew what you were asking. and you are correct. i'll go with the best device regardless of OS or XDA support right now.
i mean, right now im using an IPhone because it was the best for me at the time. and now i want to switch to the Tp2. saying "i won't buy XXXX device because it is made by XXXX company and runs XXXX Operating system severely limits choices.
Why of course!!!!
Alright, so after reading a couple articles on a bunch of sites. I can sort of understand a vicious cycle that's going on in the mobile development world.
First off, let me begin, Mobile OEMs (as we all know) don't release updates very often. And as a general rule, when they do... it's usually a couple months late. Just look at HTC devices, most of the (somewhat) older devices (depending on what you're definition of older is) aren't getting the updates to ICS for while http://goo.gl/FjcMJ . And in some cases they just decide not to update them at all. (see the Desire HD and possibly the Thunderbolt http://goo.gl/BwZld )
Initially when Android started, this was a little different. And allow me to clarify by going far far back, to the first Android device. The HTC Dream.
It initially came out with Android 1.0 (Astro) it eventually got updated all the way to the software version 1.5 (Cupcake). If you look back then, that's two software updates! Astro to Bender to Cupcake.
Now let's look at just about any other Android device (not made my Samsung, for the most part they're a bad example... (of course then again, they have the head of Cyanogenmod Steve Kondik on their team).
We're going to look at Motorola, because despite the fact that it's owned by Google, not all of their devices have received updates. And the device I've chosen from them is the defy. Now if you look over at the development section of the forums you'll see that we have a working (and apparently a very smooth) port of Jelly Bean for the Defy. http://goo.gl/mE1Qy
But if you decide to see what Motorola's deciding to do to update it from Gingerbread, well... their development section is devoid of everything for the Defy... http://goo.gl/g8XN0
Now why does that matter to us happy go lucky developers and modders? Well let's look over this little scenario I've played out in my head more than once.
CEO#1 "Oh they want Jelly Bean?"
CEO#2 "Yeah they do..."
CEO#1 "So what are we going to do about it?"
CEO#2 *checks XDA* "Nothing, the ones who really care about it have a working ROM up already."
CEO#1 "Okay, sounds good to me. So are you ready to go make some more phones with high specs and outdated software?"
CEO#2 "Well if we start now, we should be able to get six new devices running ICS 4.0.3 out by mid December!"
CEO#1 "Ohh, not even having the latest version of ICS is really going to get them. Brilliant!"
This is a vicious cycle that just keeps going around, and around, and around. The problem is that there doesn't seem to be a way to stop it. While we need Superuser and rooting privileges, we also need updates to the latest version of Android OS to keep us going.
OEMs on the other hand see us as free labor for development and as the only people who really want/need the updates. The problem is that with their history of sending out updates we really can't stop working. And even when they do send out updates, sometimes they aren't even fully stable! (see Evo 3D http://goo.gl/VzCNM )
So the question is, how are we going to stop this?
Buy devices from the companies that keep things up to date. The Nexus gets direct pushes from Google so you know you're good there. Sony has a dedicated line to developers through their forums and even offers devices for temporary dev use and has reasonably priced unsubsidised phones.
Put your dollars in the right places if you want to make change happen. Those who want full access still aren't a large enough part of the market to shape everything. That said, people pushing for control have made sure that iDevices can be jailbroken and HTC is staggering hard because of mis-steps in marketing that have been worsened by lackluster updates and their decision to shun the dev community that was bolstering them.
They can't look at xda or whatever Android forum because there is a larger population of users who have no idea what rooting is, let alone custom ROMs. Those people depend on updates and if they won't get an official update, they won't get one at all.
Sent from my MB508 using xda premium
If you ask 10 Android users what version of Android they are on, 8 of them will have no clue, 1 will know because the sales rep used it as a selling point, and one of them will be running Jellybean (thanks to XDA!).
Consumer demand is not high enough to demand the cost of testing new software on dated phones. Sad but true.
thebeastglasser said:
OEMs on the other hand see us as free labor for development and as the only people who really want/need the updates.
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Click to collapse
If they really saw us as free labor, they would release a phone with cyanogenmod or something and just kang whatever works for their next update. (Actually, this would be a very good idea.)
However, in actuality, they just don't care about the devs. Too busy trying to differentiate their products with custom skins and cause more work for everyone.
It is true that most people don't know much more than that they are are android or "droid", just like many people don't know much more than they have an Iphone. The vocal majority of phone users (online) however have quite a bit more knowledge which means they get much more feedback from the minority.
One of the main reasons (other than price) that I got a Nexus 7 was due to the fact that Google pushes updates immediately to their nexus devices. I see this as an additional "perk".
You can't buy a device Android or other from an OEM or carrier and expect to get the latest greatest updates a or mods any too quickly. Forums and sites like xda bring in developers and users who ate eager to offer mods and help that you will never find coming from the mainstream as quickly or with the same quality. I get the device I want and look to here to make it better quicker.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using xda app-developers app
But what I see is that there are a bunch of phones that could easily be running better software (like the Defy) but OEMs clearly see that anybody who seems to care enough about updates are doing it themselves. The problem is, there are relatives of mine who refuse to root and yet they know enough about phones to know what version they're running and know the difference between the two versions. The one they currently have, and the one they could have.
I feel like this is kind of unfair to the sed-mentioned people and on top of that, it makes uneducated users buy more phones, while it keeps people like us are at work.
I'd bet that it was a pain in the a** porting ICS to the Desire HD no thanks to HTC, and yet this is just one less job for HTC and a hell of a lot more work for us... That's just me.
And also, that idea for a "pre-kanged" phone or one running a version of Cyanogenmod is pretty good. It'd be a great idea...
Again, speak with your dollars. I have no doubt that Nexus sales will continue to climb not only because of devs, but because people who just end up with them will like seeing timely updates and devices that continue to get better and better. If you want to help the rise of affordable, quality devices then steer others toward them when you can and buy them yourself when it's time for something new.
Also, people on xda do not see development as a "work", they see it as a hobby...
So even if all the phones were on the latest android, the dev community here at Xda would still be hard at "work" to come up with something better...something which the OEM's and Google couldn't think of implementing even with such large resources at their disposal...
And let's face it, apart from games, the general public in large doesn't have "need" for BETTER phones...
I've seen the likes of HTC One X and Galaxy S3 go in the hands of people for whom multitasking would mean chatting on whatsapp while waiting for the fb app to load...
So the question would arise, if the public doesn't "need" better phones, how do we sell it to them?
The answer becomes clear, stop giving them updates...make them feel that their device is outdated...that they "need" a NEW and BETTER phone...
The ones who understand the capability of their phone would have the ability, or more importantly, the will to make the updates happen...
For the rest, well there's fancy advertising...
Hope this clears up...
- Via xda premium
Yeah, I suppose it makes sense. Thanks guys!
How many people are there using Android? About 60% of the market, which means hundred milion users How many members do we have here on XDA? Less than hundred thousands! It means that regular users dont know and dont care what OS they use or even dont know what the update is. Froyo, GB, ICS, JB sound like alien languages for most of regular users. For those who know wat they are using, they are already XDA members, the rest just doesnt care or they just simply buy an iCrapple. Therefore, there is no way you can stop that. Customers are always taken granted by companies.
Sent from my SGH-T989 using xda app-developers app
Extreemly well put. We all knew it but didn't say anything. I am awaiting the next nexus for this very reason. Props to thebeastglasser
MissionImprobable said:
Again, speak with your dollars. I have no doubt that Nexus sales will continue to climb
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The bundling is too strong with this market. When there are literally only one or two phone brands, usually otherwise sub-par, that are stock, the voting with dollars won't make much of a difference. It's like voting in an election where a lot of people who might prefer a pure candidate are given tons of reasons to go with more mainstream ones.
So how can change actually be effected? First and most obviously, google might dictate to motorola to make stock phones. Hopefully, that will happen and stock android will start getting a positive reputation for straightforward and automatic upgrades.
The other option starts at grassroots levels: this bundling leaves a gap in the market, and eventually someone should step in to fill that gap. I can imagine small start ups in third-world countries (where price is a real issue) revitalizing older brands with the highest supported cyanogenmod, then selling them at still relatively low prices for a profit. If there is enough demand for this, this "repackaging" business would be emulated all over and the OEMs might start to take a hint.
For the record there are over four million members on XDA...
thebeastglasser said:
For the record there are over four million members on XDA...
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Click to collapse
Not currently active users though. Remember XDA used to make you register to download files so that jacked up the member rate.
thebobp said:
The bundling is too strong with this market. When there are literally only one or two phone brands, usually otherwise sub-par, that are stock, the voting with dollars won't make much of a difference. It's like voting in an election where a lot of people who might prefer a pure candidate are given tons of reasons to go with more mainstream ones.
So how can change actually be effected? First and most obviously, google might dictate to motorola to make stock phones. Hopefully, that will happen and stock android will start getting a positive reputation for straightforward and automatic upgrades.
The other option starts at grassroots levels: this bundling leaves a gap in the market, and eventually someone should step in to fill that gap. I can imagine small start ups in third-world countries (where price is a real issue) revitalizing older brands with the highest supported cyanogenmod, then selling them at still relatively low prices for a profit. If there is enough demand for this, this "repackaging" business would be emulated all over and the OEMs might start to take a hint.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The Chinese market is already doing that, and with brand new phones that come both rooted and sometimes unlocked. Yes, there are other markets in which this can be done, but it doesn't make sense to talk on the one hand about voting with dollars not making a difference and then saying third-world resellers will change the game.
Google is marketing a clean, recognizable line in their Nexus devices, advertising intelligently, and making sure that they continue to stay on the latest firmware. Supporting them and other companies who do so will dictate what model corporations follow. Again, HTC is eating crow because their abandonment of the dev community and their decision to spread themselves thin, ala Motorola, who are also being dug out of a hole now by Google. I'd say both companies have paid the price for ignoring what the marketplace demands.
Moto had everyone hooked with the original Droid so there is no doubt that share is won or lost by how you approach relevancy for the long run. Go back and look at how many people loved their OG Droids in every way but have now moved on to other brands because of locked bootloaders and lack of firmware updates on the models that followed. Money makes the corporate world go round and every little bit helps.
Grassroots movements have done everything from keeping the iPhone legal to jailbreak to getting a man his goodies when a WP store tried to pull a fast one in regards to him winning the WP challenge to getting VZ to clarify that they wouldn't be doing anything to their Unlimited users. We may not be the majority, but we are far more organized and informed than the masses and as such what we do gets noticed and picked up on by tech, blog, and news coverage. The only ones who don't make change happen are the naysayers who sit by and do nothing. Support the brands that support the customers and devs.
MissionImprobable said:
The Chinese market is already doing that, and with brand new phones that come both rooted and sometimes unlocked. Yes, there are other markets in which this can be done, but it doesn't make sense to talk on the one hand about voting with dollars not making a difference and then saying third-world resellers will change the game.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sure voting makes sense.. if you're in another country where the election's not as rigged.
MissionImprobable said:
Again, HTC is eating crow because their abandonment of the dev community and their decision to spread themselves thin, ala Motorola, who are also being dug out of a hole now by Google. I'd say both companies have paid the price for ignoring what the marketplace demands.
Moto had everyone hooked with the original Droid so there is no doubt that share is won or lost by how you approach relevancy for the long run. Go back and look at how many people loved their OG Droids in every way but have now moved on to other brands because of locked bootloaders and lack of firmware updates on the models that followed. Money makes the corporate world go round and every little bit helps.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm not really convinced that Motorola's and HTC's losses were due to locked bootloaders, or even lack of firmware updates. Rather, I think it's due to brand inertia: at some point, Samsung came up with a phone (the Galaxy S2) that was so far ahead of anything else on the market at the time, that they just grabbed market share and brand loyalty from many of the consumers on the market. This has little to do with the Galaxy Nexus, and indeed their "next big thing" has been the horribly backward (from a stock perspective) S3 and the Note.
It's been my perception that there is a strong correlation between developer support and whatever device I want to get next.
When I got my very first phone, it was the Samsung Captivate.
It had (Still has) great dev support. I decided not to wait a month to get the Moto Atrix because, there was no predicting what kind of dev support it would have despite having great specs. I find that (generally speaking) Samsung phones have had strong dev support.
I sort of hate to point this out.. But, if you think the "average consumer" cares about upgrades.. I would be inclined to disagree. A lot of people do care about upgrades.. Myself, my girlfriend, a lot of people who frequent forums in general.
Still, your average consumer is probably more concerned with the screen size than the software it's packing. Even if ICS is "nicer" and "more elegant" there are a lot of people who really don't know or even care what OS their phone is running. As long as they can text and check facebook, they aren't going to be bothered with the small details of "Jellybean" or "ICS"
I have to be completely honest when I admit, if I were a manufacturer.. I don't honestly know how inclined I would be to release OS updates. Not because I want to be an evil corporation and force you to upgrade to get the newest OS.. But, because putting it plain and simply.. It takes time, energy, and money to release an update. If *ANYTHING* goes wrong with the update and even a single person doesn't follow the instructions.. It becomes really hard to prove they are the one at fault. So you spend your time and energy making an update, potentially having more cost incurred due to possibly damaged hardware, and then finally.. wondering how many people really cared in the first place. A lot of people don't care and even won't upgrade their phone because, they perceive it as "a pointless endeavor."
thebobp said:
Sure voting makes sense.. if you're in another country where the election's not as rigged.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What does this have to do with supporting companies that support us? Voting with your dollars is a metaphor; it doesn't mean that there is an election for phones.
Hello anyone reading this message.
My name is gregory. I am like most of you pretty pissed about the behavior of canonical (at least if you followed the ubuntu edge fund campaign http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/ubuntu-edge). What a lame way to make advertising. Of course, anyone with a bit of sense would smell the scam here, 32,000,000$ in a month? come on man!!! So here I am. I've been a flasholic for years and I think I came up with the idea of making my own cell phone about 3 years ago. fear, shyness and lack of funds made me drop the idea several time. But today we have the possibility to change the cell phone world together, thanx to canonical's lame way to advertise their OS. Basically here is my idea, Why not fund our own XDA phone? After all, many of us having problem or getting fed up with the slow updates of our phones are coming here to get things done. Most of us don't wait anymore for those big brands to update our devices. So why in the world are we waiting for them to build them. I've been around XDA for quite some times now and all I see here is a great mix of DEV. So correct me if i'm wrong. The dev on XDA are for most way faster and more reliable than the one at samsung, htc etc. the parts for the phones are all made in china for the most part, we all know some designers and the ubuntu edge crowfunding made it to 12,000,000 +. So here is my question to you people on XDA. Why don't we make our own phone the same way. Even 10,000,000 would be largely enough to make simply the best phone in the world. we could make a poll about each part and design in the phone, and i'm pretty sure the dev here would agree to make the device better. Not only because they will be pay for it, but because they love it. I am no business man, neither a develloper. I don't know code or anything in that matter. Now let me tell you my vision (and no i didn't take LSD for it)
imagines a phone with the latest specs like the edge. 128gb drive storage, 4gb ram, sapphire glass etc etc, it would be nice, but now imagine the same device with the XDA community back up, updates and corrections every 1 or 2 months, pushed straight to your phone without need of external program (kies, itunes or else... why is it call mobile phone if you need to have a computer to update it?), a minimum of 3 years updates, and of course, the ability to solve your problem here without having to talk with lame company commercials who would send your phone to korea just because they don't know anything about the product they sell. won't it be a dream? - more ideas are very welcome and that's why WE should do our own phone.
As I said, i'm not into the cell phone business, although I know some things about business in china, i'm no designer or dev, but i'm sure we could put up a pretty team from people here and make it happen. And when it's done, start a crowfunding. I know it would work because the name XDA alone stand for quality and improvement in our mobile world today. I have in mind that anyone willing to do that would succeed and I can't protect this kind of idea since i'm not the one who invent cell phone. but I also think the great thing with the xda community is that there is no lame boss or greedy stock sharers to decide what people should do or not. I'm hard working and if people think we should make it then i'm willing to work my ass, even travel (i'm from Paris, france not texas ) overseas to make this happen. here is the team i think we should put together to see this device built:
- people who knows the chinese technology market (where to buy and select company)
- DEV who knows about Android devellopment (maybe ubuntu or any other)
- designers ( let's try to make something more beautiful than the iphone )
- lawyers (I guess)
- commercials
any other ideas are welcome.
I opened this thread just to see your reactions on the subjects. it a little messy because i have so many things in my mind but feel free to argue, critisized, encourage, or just explain to us anything that comes in your mind. cheers
jimmymetis said:
Hello anyone reading this message.
My name is gregory. I am like most of you pretty pissed about the behavior of canonical (at least if you followed the ubuntu edge fund campaign http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/ubuntu-edge). What a lame way to make advertising. Of course, anyone with a bit of sense would smell the scam here, 32,000,000$ in a month? come on man!!! So here I am. I've been a flasholic for years and I think I came up with the idea of making my own cell phone about 3 years ago. fear, shyness and lack of funds made me drop the idea several time. But today we have the possibility to change the cell phone world together, thanx to canonical's lame way to advertise their OS. Basically here is my idea, Why not fund our own XDA phone? After all, many of us having problem or getting fed up with the slow updates of our phones are coming here to get things done. Most of us don't wait anymore for those big brands to update our devices. So why in the world are we waiting for them to build them. I've been around XDA for quite some times now and all I see here is a great mix of DEV. So correct me if i'm wrong. The dev on XDA are for most way faster and more reliable than the one at samsung, htc etc. the parts for the phones are all made in china for the most part, we all know some designers and the ubuntu edge crowfunding made it to 12,000,000 +. So here is my question to you people on XDA. Why don't we make our own phone the same way. Even 10,000,000 would be largely enough to make simply the best phone in the world. we could make a poll about each part and design in the phone, and i'm pretty sure the dev here would agree to make the device better. Not only because they will be pay for it, but because they love it. I am no business man, neither a develloper. I don't know code or anything in that matter. Now let me tell you my vision (and no i didn't take LSD for it)
imagines a phone with the latest specs like the edge. 128gb drive storage, 4gb ram, sapphire glass etc etc, it would be nice, but now imagine the same device with the XDA community back up, updates and corrections every 1 or 2 months, pushed straight to your phone without need of external program (kies, itunes or else... why is it call mobile phone if you need to have a computer to update it?), a minimum of 3 years updates, and of course, the ability to solve your problem here without having to talk with lame company commercials who would send your phone to korea just because they don't know anything about the product they sell. won't it be a dream? - more ideas are very welcome and that's why WE should do our own phone.
As I said, i'm not into the cell phone business, although I know some things about business in china, i'm no designer or dev, but i'm sure we could put up a pretty team from people here and make it happen. And when it's done, start a crowfunding. I know it would work because the name XDA alone stand for quality and improvement in our mobile world today. I have in mind that anyone willing to do that would succeed and I can't protect this kind of idea since i'm not the one who invent cell phone. but I also think the great thing with the xda community is that there is no lame boss or greedy stock sharers to decide what people should do or not. I'm hard working and if people think we should make it then i'm willing to work my ass, even travel (i'm from Paris, france not texas ) overseas to make this happen. here is the team i think we should put together to see this device built:
- people who knows the chinese technology market (where to buy and select company)
- DEV who knows about Android devellopment (maybe ubuntu or any other)
- designers ( let's try to make something more beautiful than the iphone )
- lawyers (I guess)
- commercials
any other ideas are welcome.
I opened this thread just to see your reactions on the subjects. it a little messy because i have so many things in my mind but feel free to argue, critisized, encourage, or just explain to us anything that comes in your mind. cheers
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
A search would have shown you this has already been talked about and "If" it ever did happen it would not be with any parts from China at all. The parts would have to be of the highest quality. But as I said this has already been talked about before.
zelendel said:
A search would have shown you this has already been talked about and "If" it ever did happen it would not be with any parts from China at all. The parts would have to be of the highest quality. But as I said this has already been talked about before.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i tried to find anything about this but didn't, could you tell me which thread talk about that?
zelendel said:
A search would have shown you this has already been talked about and "If" it ever did happen it would not be with any parts from China at all. The parts would have to be of the highest quality. But as I said this has already been talked about before.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
if this has been discuss already then you can close the thread. still didn't find anything on the subject, maybe i'm not using the good key words to find it. anyway thanx