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Bluetooth GPS - Very Poor Performance!?

Is it just me/my hardware or is GPS over Bluetooth absolutely rubbish!?
I tried a Holux GR-230 unit first but had the usual problems in getting it connected. When I finally did, I was apalled by it's performance, usually failing to get a gps lock at all.
So I ditched it in favour of a Rikaline GPS-6031-X7. It picked up far mor signals and usually obtained a lock almost instantly. However, it's accuracy is very disappointing. Positional accuracy - it's usually ok on a motorway or dual carriageway but at slower speeds, it jumps all over the place, forwards, backwards, in the middle of fields hundreds of yards away - and that's the worst time for it to happen 'cos it's when you slow down for a junction that you actually need it. The second issue is directional accuracy - it often shows me driving sideways as it's so sloooooow to update/recalc the direction.
If this was my first experience of gps, I might be able to forgive it without a benchmark to judge it against. But I've used Navman with an iPaq, a LAM1 unit with my Nokia 9210 and a (cheap) CF device with my Dell Axim and they all performed far, far better! I know that TomTom Navigator 2 isn't the problem as it performed flawlessly on my Axim (PXA255).
So what's going wrong? Is it the bluetooth devices, or the bluetooth technology, or the XDA II? Will O2's bluetooth update improve matters?
I can no longer rely on this and I'm going to have to start taking map backups - something I've never had to do before and really defeats the object.
Any thoughts, experiences, comments, answers?????
Ged.

I think your problem could be the gps receiver.
I am using the Navman 4400 with my XDAII. It took some time and a couple of patches (from this site, thanks guys) to get it to bond via bluetooth, but now it's setup, it works great. It seems to be very accurate and tells me to exit roundabouts just at the correct time.
It's a bit slow to get the initial fix when first switched on (about 2 minutes) but once connected I have no problems.
Is the gps receiver positioned by a heated screen? If so, this will block the signal and produce the problems you describe.

Have you changed your car? Some newer cars have reflective windshields that can cause problems.
Cheers

Thanks guys. I know of both of the issues you describe but I drive a 3 year old clio 172 - no heated/reflective screen. The receiver usually sits on the dash and receives a very strong signal from upwards of 6 sats.
I've now emailed Rikaline too so we'll see what they come up with (if anything).

I am using the Holux GR-230 and it works flawlessly with towas latest patch 1.0.1.2, a very accurate gps based on my own observations with tomtom2.

Hi guys
I have recently received my new XDA II from Orange (know as SPV M1000)
I am using it with the Fortuna Clip On GPS, Tom Tom Navigator and a Jabra 250 headset.
So far I have had no problems with the GPS, it works every time. On a rare ocasion I have to reset the phone to get the head set to work but this is very rare.
Not sure if orange have modified the software but it all seems to work.

I'm beginning to think that it's the XDA that's at fault. I know TTN2 is ok, you guys aren't having any probs with bluetooth gps devices in general, and I'd have to be extremely unlucky to have TWO faulty gps receivers from different manufacturers!
Persuading O2 that it's faulty is another matter though.

i work in the in car navi business and a 3 year old cleo does have a metalic winscreen apart from the hatched area around the rear view mirror (for use with toll tags and other antennas).You will nead a re-radateing antenna mounted externally to get propper reception as the cleo also has a faradays cage effect making radio reception within the cab area very difficult.(they are a ***** to work on)

pinkslayer, shove it in somebody elses car, or slap it on the roof of yours and see how it go's in that location.

Should know my car a bit better really!
I had tried mounting the Holux in front of the rear view mirror but this didn't help so I didn't bother trying the Rikaline. And my wife has a clio too so no point trying it in hers.
So even though I'm locking on to 5-6 sats, it's still not sufficient!? Or is the metallic screen just causing additional latency?

Its not the number of sats, its the strength of the signal received, I have seen 8 sats showing but tomtom wont attempt a route until the signals are strong enough for a lock,

Rikaline GPS-6031-X7
hi all
i use a Rikaline -x7 with TomTom Navigator 2 on my xda ll with the bluetooth pach from
http://bluetooth.i-networx.de/index_e.html
and the update is slow when taking corners (ie the map is slow to turn to the heads up position) or if you come of a motorway/ dual carriageway thats not on the calulated route it will take some time to acknowledge this
but i do not have the problem of it at slower speeds it jumps all over the place
As for accuracy my old tomtom wired gps was better
but the Rikaline-x7 is usable

Thanks peops. I've now tried mounting it on the rear parcel shelf and also stuck it to the shaded area above the rvm but to no avail (even when it was back on the dash this morning, it took 11 minutes to get a fix and another 5 before it could calc direction - cloudy day!). As soon as it's dry enough, I'll mount it outside the car and see how it is.
I don't really want to do down the re-radateing antenna route as the whole point of having portable equipment is that you can use it anywhere and in any vehicle.

Im using the Rikaline GPS 6031-X7 and Im really happy with, no problems at all in fact I think its brilliant............

I'm using the fortuna clipon in a landy with heated windscreen. It doesn't seem to affect the signal (with or without the screen on) and I have to say i was expecting problems with it. It has been the only thing about the whole BT GPS/XDAII setup that I haven't had problems with..
Technology eh!

GPS receiver upgrade or to buy Tytn II

Dear All,
before to buy a Tytn II, I'd like to understand if the GPS comes upgraded by the future's ROMs (I think yes) or is necessary a future hardware change ???
P.S.:
I have a Tytn with the GPS Fortuna ClipOn BT, and I don't know is better to change the GPS receiver or buy the new one with GPS included.
Thanks a lot
Ciao ...

ritmia said:
Dear All,
before to buy a Tytn II, I'd like to understand if the GPS comes upgraded by the future's ROMs (I think yes) or is necessary a future hardware change ???
P.S.:
I have a Tytn with the GPS Fortuna ClipOn BT, and I don't know is better to change the GPS receiver or buy the new one with GPS included.
Thanks a lot
Ciao ...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Buy the new phone - its worth it. The GPS works fine & the phone has a lot more oomph (CPU memory etc)

Seconded, get the Kaiser and off load your BT gps. My Wizard is now relegated to my wifes car with my old BT gps and that is her SatNav solution. I am well happy just having the Kaiser as the gps works as well if not better, and I only have to carry one device around.

Had a bluetooth GPS unit connected to my AXIM as my GPS system before I bought this phone.
My AXIM crashed, battery died flat dead, so I had to use my phone as backup. Used the built-in GPS with TOMTOM on my Kaiser and it was AWESOME- worked perfectly!
Get this phone you won't need anything to supplement it what-so-ever...

No. The Kaiser built-in GPS chipset can't compare to BT-359 SIRF III. It sees less Satellite; also, many of them are invalid signal, that means these satellites were grey. With the ones are blue, the signal keeps going up and down. Sometimes, for somewhat reasons, Kaiser loose the GPS fix (you see the map turn around) even in the clear view sky, then you loose your current position.
If you're driving in the crowed sky area (e.g NYC), stick with bluetooth GPS SIRF III chipset receiver.
Read more here: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=339257 I had used the BT-338 then upgraded to BT -359 which is slimmer, sleeker but lack of external antenna connector and less of batt. time life.

i have tomtom - works faster.
tilt gps - far worse. but it works at 95%.

ritmia said:
Dear All,
before to buy a Tytn II, I'd like to understand if the GPS comes upgraded by the future's ROMs (I think yes) or is necessary a future hardware change ???
P.S.:
I have a Tytn with the GPS Fortuna ClipOn BT, and I don't know is better to change the GPS receiver or buy the new one with GPS included.
Thanks a lot
Ciao ...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Frankly I doubt the inbuilt GPS is going to be as good as an external one. (I reserve my judgement till my Tytn II arrives. However, your decision should be based on expense too. Do you mind spending out the extra for inbuilt GPS by buying a whole new Smartphone?
If yes then no problem because you can still use an external gps. If you want to keep the cost down get an external one. I bought an i-blue 737. The device cost me 30UKP and it's never ceased to amaze me how good it is. This will pick up 7 satelites anywhere in my home regardless of where I am. No need to go near a window, the acuracy is astounding with WAAS + EGNOs enabled and 115000 baud coms.
As I say I doubt the inbuilt one is going to match this but it probably will be fairly decent.
Disclaimer: this is just my opinion.

Nghiem said:
No. The Kaiser built-in GPS chipset can't compare to BT-359 SIRF III. It sees less Satellite; also, many of them are invalid signal, that means these satellites were grey.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
True for the reception quality, but not for the TTFF which is much shorter with the QualCOMM chipset than with a Sirf III (less than 5 seconds in most cases).
The degradation of the signal due to obstruction (when inside a car for example) is virtually identical to a Sirf III chipset.
The only real weakness with the QualCOMM chipset for the time being is that it has major problems getting a fix when moving quickly. I tried several times to get a fix while moving with ~450mph with a clear view to almost all satellites and the QualCOMM has a very hard time to find more than 2-3 useable satellites. Even after 5-10 minutes no useable position can be determined. Moving quickly to get a fix should not be a problem at all for any GPS chipset.
But I have high hopes that those "quirks" will get fixed with a future firmware update.

The Kaiser has an antenna port specifically for the GPS undeneath the battery cover. I don't know if a battery cover can be found that exposed it more gracefully but I imagine with a small antenna would augment the signal nicely.
That being said, without using an external antenna, I'm actually quite impressed with the accuracy. I wouldn't have anything to compare against it but it's always been dead on for me.
I use TomTom 6 but I've played with google maps and Windows Live Search.
I have noticed it can take a long time to get the first lock on occasion, and especially so when driving at speed. Not really a problem for me, as you usually plan where I'm going while the car is stopped.
-James

Since GPS works with as little as 3 sats, and 4 for 3D positioning, why does everyone worry about getting 7 tuned in? Seems a bit anal to me.
The Kaiser GPS IMHO is a tad slow to init, but other than that, it's worth every penny to not have 2 devices to handle at times. I've never had a problem loosing connectivity, so I'm 100% satisfied with the Kaiser. YMMV of course.
Now if HTC would use a decent CMOS sensor in the camera, then I'd call the phone perfect. But that's another thread...

Dear All,
thanks to everybody about the answers ... I think I'll upgrade my GPS receiver (is more cheap). In this moment, I wait other tests about the GPS of Tytn II.
Ciao, ...

scottwilkins said:
Since GPS works with as little as 3 sats, and 4 for 3D positioning, why does everyone worry about getting 7 tuned in?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Because the more satellites you are evaluating, the more precise the position gets and in case you lose track of one of the satellites, you will still be shown a valid position.
Adding to that, the RAIM functionality of GPS receivers for an even more precise position while getting rid of most common GPS erros only works with 5 satellites or more.
So, while it's true that you only need 3 satellites for an 2D position, this fix will not be very precise (due to lack of crosschecking with other satellites and typical GPS calculation errors which happen all the time) and you will lose your position as soon as one satellite disappears from your view.
However GPS receivers which can track more than 12 satellites at any given times are useless because there will never more than 12 satellites visible at any specific point of the earth, most of time you can only track and use a maximum of 8 satellites simultaneously.

vacsed said:
I tried several times to get a fix while moving with ~450mph with a clear view to almost all satellites and the QualCOMM has a very hard time to find more than 2-3 useable satellites.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Doesn't your F15 eagle have built in sat nav?

Whats the point??? GPS and the Tilt

What the hell is the point to have GPS on the tilt when it has the worst reception in the world? I have to have the phone either touching the window or on the dash to even get a signal in my car. And if I am in a wooded area, dont even think about getting a signal....is there any way to boost the signal? seems just like a waist of battery life when it dosent work half the time.
Damn i cannot wait until there is a manual on off switch for GPS, then my battery will last a little longer

Um, what? Not sure how to say this nicely, but you need to read some on the GPS in the Tilt. GPS isn't on unless you are using a program that accesses it directly. And, other than being a tad slow to initialize, it's been rated as a rather good GPS device. At least I have zero problems with it. You might try using the QuickGPS program next time before you try the GPS out on anything. What program are you using for the GPS?

GPS isn't running unless you're running a program using it, so there goes the battery savings. Obviously you're not going to get the performance of a $500 GPS unit in a $300 phone with GPS. Agreed though, I couldn't even pick up a signal until I came to a stop today and held the phone out the window! I pretty much just plan on using it on the golf course...

You guys are nuts, it's working beautifully for me, even out in the mountains... It tracks perfectly via Live Search (although it was disconcerting to have it a bit off while driving over a bridge! )

I actually get pretty good signal, i keep the phone in the center console under the stereo and still get almost full reception. Question i had about quickGPS is when you update it do you have to keep it on to get the benefits of using it? or can you just update and then close it?

You can update it and you are good for 6 days. I too have to say that my Kaiser's GPS works really well, even gets a few birds indoors.

I'm using TomTom 6. I've never owned any kind of GPS but I can often get a signal inside my home if I'm close to a window. As I understand it it, this is actually quite a sensitive GPS.
Add me to the list of satisfied owners.
-James

My GPS works great also... something else you may want to realize is that with anything that utilizes a signal from a satellite then it needs to be line of sight... It is possible for the signal to penetrate some structures but its going to be best used when it has a clear view of the sky.

Am also very satisfied with the GPS-reception although my old E-ten Glofiish X500 was a little better at this (but worse on all other stuff... ;-)
Also be aware of the fact that GPS-units in cars with embedded sun-protection in the windscreen (not sure how you call this in English, it is basically this blue-ish thin layer of foil over the whole windscreen) get much worse reception than in cars without this. Usually French cars have this by default.
The QuickGPS (assisted GPS) tool usually does not improve things for me btw.
Edward

I think its quite likely the people complaining has anti-frost layers on their screens.
Surur

surur said:
I think its quite likely the people complaining has anti-frost layers on their screens.
Surur
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Didn't think about it before, but my Land Rover has the heated windshield with wires running throughout. Probably doesn't help. I'm thoroughly satisfied with it overall though.

Many cars now have a vaporized metal layer in the glass for whole window defrosting, it makes a great shield for blocking satellite signals...

Can't complain about the GPS, its not as good as a dedicated device (Garmin Nuvi). But nice to have with Live Search if traveling without the nuvi.
Performance is not bad in the car. It helps if you're stationary to acquire sats. Anyone know if there is an app to check the sat tracking?

Actually I find it better than a Nuvi (assuming you load a good Nav app on the phone) because you get nav and things like Live Search and Google Maps which together, are pretty awesome.
You can search for GPS viewers but here's one...

I don't have a problem with using any GPS app TT, Copilot, iGo etc and the reception on my unit seems to be peachy, i get sats in my house as well as in cars with front demisters and sun shielding foil (i must just be lucky).
Not had it cut out on me except in tunnels that are too long to keep the signal (although through the Alps I kept full signal for 17 km in a tunnel through a mountain thanks to their internal antenna).
Very happy with the GPS built in its worth the money for the phone on its own for me.
Russ

QuickGPS
I have been using it in my car via Google Maps "Track Location" command from the menu and it has worked like a charm for me. I agree with initiallizing it while stopped, it takes about 30 sec - 1 min to initialize then works great. My car is old and doesn't have any new advances that may interfere.
I was showing it to a friend indoors after using the QuickGPS program (Start -> Programs -> Tools -> QuickGPS) and he suggested that it uses a combination of cell towers vs it's GPS info it downloaded. Don't know if you can use this info to help you out but it may explain a bit.

The GPS works great on the Kaiser. That you don't have to mess with it, i.e. it turns itself on and off completely on its own only when needed is awesome. If you think its onl all the time, you are either running a GPS prog constantly or just confused.
It picks up a signal very very well. The onyl thing I will say is it is n't the most accurate. I mean it isn't quite as accurate as a true Sirf III chipset unit. So, it isn't the best for using for golf (i.e. it can still be a few yards off, enough to matter). But for driving, directions, routing, etc. it works nearly perfectly.

RemE said:
Actually I find it better than a Nuvi (assuming you load a good Nav app on the phone) because you get nav and things like Live Search and Google Maps which together, are pretty awesome.
You can search for GPS viewers but here's one...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks for the cab I'll give it a try. I like to keep things lean on the phone... still trying to make it a phone first, before anything else... So I try to keep apps to a minimum.
In a pinch, MS Live is great! I do prefer the larger screen on my Nuvi for driving... and it seems to do a better job tracking when I'm speeding down the highway.

I am surprised how well it works, I have a Garmin 2610 (yes its old, about 4to 5 years old) I put the Kaiser with TomTom 6 side by side on the car dash and they both perform great, the garmin a bit faster in aquaring Sat signal, but as I drive acuracy and speed its about the same. I still prefer the Garmin due to larger screen but its a dedicated GPS unit the kaiser is a Phone with GPS, but over all I think the GPS on the kaiser is great.
My $0.02 cents (Canadian)

GPS and Tilt
Actually I have a Dell bluetooth GPS receiver and I can confirm that the Tilt GPS works way better than Dell. It takes only few seconds to lock onto the satellites. I am more than satisfied.

How to open agps on x7510

Do we have the advance config as daimond to open agps on x7510?

Does it need aGPS?
It has full GPS.

ponder said:
does it need agps?
It has full gps.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
it could make your device to get the satelite faster
as my diamond

The X7510 is definitely compatible with HTC QuickGPS as it is in some of the cooked ROMs.
Whether it would make much difference is a moot point!
I find I get a 3D lock in about 2 minutes if stationary, but it can be 10-12 minutes if actually moving. QuickGPS would not alter the lock time when mobile, as this is dependent on current signal strength, rather than the Ephemeris data. When static, QGPS may give you a few seconds advantage.
There are a number of 'definitions' of AGPS however, and no true right or wrong answer. The full implementation of A-GPS uses the GPS satellite receiver, in conjunction with a chipset feature AND mobile operator compliance to operate fully. This uses your location as sensed by your cell connection to boost the local GPS signal and supplant it if needed with a sort of triangulation algorithm to give your rough location, leaving the GPS receiver less work to do.
The original iPhone used the cell triangulation method in the absence of a true GPS receiver, and some people refer to this as A-GPS.
QuickGPS is an in-between- it simply populates the receiver's cache with Emphemeris data based on your gross location (Northern/Southern hemisphere and East/West).
Some configuration programs (eg Schaps Advanced Config) have an 'A-GPS' enable/disable setting. This should only be used in cases where the cell tower is sending GPS data. This does not currently happen at all in UK, though O2 are dabbling with it. Users who have this enabled without the supporting infrastructure are finding that their GPS signals are very unreliable, especially with TomTom. The GPS loses connection every few seconds then remakes it.
Confused? So am I

NeilM said:
The X7510 is definitely compatible with HTC QuickGPS as it is in some of the cooked ROMs.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I bought my x7510 in Kuwait and we get all our HTC devices straight from HTC with their default loads. The reason I say this is to tell you that HTC includes QuickGPS in the x7510 from the factory.
Whether it would make much difference is a moot point!
I find I get a 3D lock in about 2 minutes if stationary, but it can be 10-12 minutes if actually moving. QuickGPS would not alter the lock time when mobile, as this is dependent on current signal strength, rather than the Ephemeris data. When static, QGPS may give you a few seconds advantage.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
When stationary I have never waited more than about 45 seconds unless I am inside and have no view of the sky. When mobile I have never had to wait more than 1 - 2 minutes. Sorry to hear of your reduced performance of the GPS. I actually find it to be really fast and accurate. I wish it polled more than once per second, but I can live with that.

Kasush said:
I bought my x7510 in Kuwait and we get all our HTC devices straight from HTC with their default loads. The reason I say this is to tell you that HTC includes QuickGPS in the x7510 from the factory.
When stationary I have never waited more than about 45 seconds unless I am inside and have no view of the sky. When mobile I have never had to wait more than 1 - 2 minutes. Sorry to hear of your reduced performance of the GPS. I actually find it to be really fast and accurate. I wish it polled more than once per second, but I can live with that.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i always use the GPS fuction in my car,the glass is covered by the window film,the brand name is 3M made by Japan.
it maybe block the GPS signal...
if i used the GPS outdoor,it is normal as my other phone -diamond

Is it a heated front windscreen?
My last car had one and it's like a brick wall to GPS. I had to get a repeater to get it working.

ponder said:
is it a heated front windscreen?
My last car had one and it's like a brick wall to gps. I had to get a repeater to get it working.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
me too.
Now,i spent 30 seconds to get the gps signal outside,then get in the car

[Q] Is my GPS chip defective ?

Hello,
I'm encountering some issues with my Samsung Nexus S GPS. I got the i9023 (Europe/SLCD) version of the phone, which is running default rom (stock), freshly updated to 2.3.4 (via official OTA!).
I couldn't figure why, when using Maps, my position would usually be around 1 km away from where I am. I found out later, this time using Navigation, that it is desperately searching for a GPS signal, that it can't find. Sometimes I manage to get a lock, when I keep it running for like 30 - 40 mins, but it immediately disappears. GPS Statuts keeps showing 0/5 sats.
I was convinced that my GPS chip was defective.
But today, I was hanging out in the city and tried running Navigation. I got a lock, for the first time, within a 15 sec delay. That was the first time that I managed to get live GPS tracking. I've walked a bit around, and the tracking was really, really accurate.
Back home, in my apartment, again I can't get any signal. I live in the 3rd floor, walls aren't that thick and, as for an anecdote, in the same room, my iPhone 3Gs instantly finds my position.
I've bought this phone 6 days ago and therefore still under warranty. Question is, can we say my GPS chip is defective ? Is it worth requesting a replacement ?
Thanks !

1st) You cannot expect to get gps reception inside even with professional equipment. When your iPhone gets a fast fix it's most likely WLAN triangulation. As Apple uses a different database than Google, it may work on on your iPhone and not on your Nexus for a paticular place and vice versa.
2nd) It's unlikely that your gps is broken if you can connect to GSM/UMTS/CDMA2000 networks as gps is processed using the same chipset.
3rd) That 1km-off-fix might be celltower based location, 1km sounds quite plausible.
4th) Try _NOT_ to move until you get GPS fix.
5th) Keep internet access while trying to get a fix. The Nexus S as most phones on the market use assisted gps, where your phone contacts a server that provides data which enables your phone to track its position more easily.
6th) Good luck.

Yes, well, I had 2 friends which came to my place, in my room, and just activated GPS on their iphones and it located them straight away, to our exact position. So it was definitely the GPS tracking and not triangulation.
Indeed, when MY phone locates me off 1 km, this is definitely triangulation or cell-towers.
Of course, when I try to get a fix in my apartment or on my balcony, I just put it on a table and must wait for at least 30 mins to get a lock, and it disappears quickly. Doesn't seem normal to me ...
Finally to answer your 5th point, I got 3G, so a perfect fast & smooth inet connection.

GPS testing should always be done outside, you are not supposed to use it indoors.
What is probably happening there is that the other devices are more sensitive and can still get a lock. You might be able to get a lock if you place your phone very close to the window.
I got a Nexus S recently and noticed that the GPS is quite weaker than the one on my old HTC.
Although the Nexus is faster to get a lock (if you let it use 3G) the GPS itself is less sensitive and accurate.
It looses signal easier, for instance, if i go under some trees, and it takes more time to get signal back after loosing it, for example, if you go under a bridge, the old HTC would get the lock back in 2 seconds after leaving the bridge, the Nexus took half a minute.
Having said that, i think it's good enough for driving navigation, i have done some tests and on the road it behaves well enough.
You shouldn't be surprised, this phone is very similar to the Galaxy S and that had terrible GPS issues, this nexus is better, but still weak.

Thank you for your feedback, temp9300 !
I guess the Nexus S can't compete with iphone's. But it's ok, as long as it works fine outdoors, this is what matters.