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MDA_C hangs at 99% ce rom upgrade and splash screen

Hi all,
Have purchased a German MDA_C and flashed it to the latest dutch WWE rom (1.13). I use the NOID updater and get an error message at 99% of the update.
After this my MDA hangs at the splash screen (but showing updated rom and radio versions).
Doing a lot of soft and hard resets I managed to get by the splash screen 1 time...
Tried a lot of different rom versions but each time I get the same problem
I've read that the SPLASH screen problem is more or less common but I wasn't able to find a solution on the forum.
Now I made one stupid mistake... I did not backup the original rom...
Any suggestions how to get up and running?
Thanks in advance...
BuDDaH

The very first boot takes a long time, 15 mins for some! If you're not waiting for around 15 mins ....

Thanks for this valuable information kta.
This time I waited 1 hour after upgrading just to be sure.
same result. flashing stops at 99% of the CE Rom.
Hard reset shows splash screen with version numbers (radio 1.13 rom 1.13 wwe) and then just hangs.

From bad to worse
So I had a MDA_C that did not boot further than the splash screen.
Updated using the MaUpgradeUt_noID.exe. Thought I'd give the SD way a try since I already tried about 6 different roms all with the same result.
First I made a backup to SD card of what was in my MDA using romupdate.exe
extracted the file to my HD.
After extracting (and securing the device ID) I tried rebooting my MDA.
Now things got worse!!! instead of the splashscreen I now have the BLACK SCREEN......
Have tried resetting and hard resetting dozens of times (more like a thousand times) and only occasionaly the splash screen comes up. :roll:
But over the last couple of days I only managed to get the bootloader 1 time (and at that time there was no SD card inside) :shock:
this is behaviour I haven't read about on the forum.
Guess I will have to get it serviced.
Is there anyone on the board that has an address in the Netherlands that can flash or repair my mda? Not sure T-Mobile NL services German devices...
Thanks!

Not dead yet?
Here's some more info.
My 'almost dead' Magician is showing signs of life.
I had the BLACK SCREEN.... (first couple of lines of pixels were not black)
After thousands of hard and soft resets (soft resets seemed to have the best results) I managed to get into the bootloader!! Flashed with an older rom and at least I'm getting the splash screen again. (but still getting an error at 99% of update of the CE rom).
I'm updating using the exe in bootloader mode btw....
Since there's always an error at 99% when I use the exe method and the device is not booting I thought about giving the SD method a shot.
My device didn's show the SD option but fortunately tadzio explained about the MBR (didn't even know a SD card had one!!! :lol:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/viewtopic.php?t=32849
When I decode a nbf file using nbfdec.exe and flashing afterwards I get a message that my ROM is to small.
Size is same as nbf file.
How do I correctly decode a nbf file?
Thanks for the help.
BuDDaH

Don't use a nbf, get a dumped or bs rom from the ftp & follow instructions with copying bytes etc.
M

Ok OLTP I'll skip the nbf decoding route.
Think one of the problems is the way the newer roms are encoded.....
Saw you're using a 1.13 bigstorage rom?
That one is not on the ftp is it?
Modified your own rom image?

Hi BuDDaH,
I downloaded at the Dutch TMO site the shipped-rom, unzipped the exe file & decoded the nk.nbf nbfdec. In this nk.nb1 I altered the usual BS bit patterns and re-encoded the nk.nb1, again with nbfdec, to the nk.nbf. After that it was just running, the extracted, upgrade program & it worked like the usual shipped-rom upgrade. you might have to use the maupgrade_noid version, sometimes twice.
This method is better described in the thread about upgrading to radio 1.13 which you can add along the road as well.
So yes I made it myself, not so fond of using other people's rom unless I have to. Please don't let anyone be offended by this, cause a replaced bit can cause serious harm, like I encountered myself, with my own corrupted rom-dump.
Good luck, M

Just wanted to update you all on the latest status.
I managed to flash a german rom (as I've got a German device) although I always get an error message at 99%.....
Fist it just stuck on the splash screen but this somehow deteriorated. Now I get a black screen covering about 5/6th of the screen. the first 1/6th shows a part of the splash screen. No backlight and it hangs.
No more bootloader so I need to have it serviced (anybody knows what the techies do with such a device?)....
Now the question remains where.
T-Mobile NL refuses to service it since the IMEI is unknown to their system
T-mobile Germany doesn't have a service center but only takes repairs through a T-Punkt shop..
Any ideas?
Thanks,
BuDDaH

Latest update...
I sent it in for repair and it turns out that the ROM is damaged and the phone needs a mainboard replacement..... which costs about the same as a new unit...
Anyone got a spare one laying around for me?
So much for my Magician!
Cheers,
BuDDaH....

Sorry to hear...did you try another SD card?

Yep I did; but unfotunately the situation deteriorated and I'm completely unable to get into bootloader mode.....
Well.. :idea: maybe I must see this as a great opportunity to get wild with a set of scewdrivers

Hey BuddaH,
There enough people interested in the parts here at the forum, so there's a tiny brightside on your adventure :-(, man i do feel sorry for you.
Regards, M

Yup, i need some parts also

BuDDaH said:
Yep I did; but unfotunately the situation deteriorated and I'm completely unable to get into bootloader mode.....
Well.. :idea: maybe I must see this as a great opportunity to get wild with a set of scewdrivers
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You probably ran the battery down. I don't think it charges unless the ROM is working. That is why it is highly recommended that you start with a full charge before commencing a ROM update.

Hi Stevedebbi,
Even in my situation the it still seemed possible to charge the battery (at least the red light went out and the battery got hot).
Sent my device to apexlaptops.co.uk cause they claimed they reflash...
Got the reply back that they couldn't get it too bootloader mode and were unable to repair. (guess they could not do some JTAG debugging).
I may be able to buy a working device that's damaged on the outside....

Wont Boot

I am a little confused. I have been trying to get WM6 on my T-mobile Wizard and actually got TNT 1.1 loaded and was working fine. I found that I could no longer view my contacts. The page would appear and then as quickly as it appeared it disappeared.
So I figured, I at least got it this far. I will just reload this rom and see if perhaps something did load right. Well after the reload. The phone boots up to the splash screen with IPL\SPL numbers and just sits. NOTHING.
I left it there for like 2 hours and still nothing. But I can still get into the BootLoader.
My questions to you gurus is:
Is the phone fubared?
Can I do some kind of master reset?
Why would it tell me "Invalid Vendor ID" when trying to flash the orginal T-mobile rom?
Are there any tools that can help me out? Paid\free?
Please help!!! Seriously! Please HELP!!!
Very much appreciated.
Thanks

Drunknasty said:
I am a little confused. I have been trying to get WM6 on my T-mobile Wizard and actually got TNT 1.1 loaded and was working fine. I found that I could no longer view my contacts. The page would appear and then as quickly as it appeared it disappeared.
So I figured, I at least got it this far. I will just reload this rom and see if perhaps something did load right. Well after the reload. The phone boots up to the splash screen with IPL\SPL numbers and just sits. NOTHING.
I left it there for like 2 hours and still nothing. But I can still get into the BootLoader.
My questions to you gurus is:
Is the phone fubared?
Can I do some kind of master reset?
Why would it tell me "Invalid Vendor ID" when trying to flash the orginal T-mobile rom?
Are there any tools that can help me out? Paid\free?
Please help!!! Seriously! Please HELP!!!
Very much appreciated.
Thanks
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
if your device is G3, unlocking is required to flash any rom, before upgrade your device, it is recommended to flash an official WM5.0 rom (in your case T-Mobile rom) with IPL and SPL 2.xx then flash again.
in general there are many probabilities for your issue.
((Where is TNT1.1?? did you mean 1.0?? ))

My Bad meant 1.0
So to get it straight.... I will need to unlock my phone each time?
Oh and to correct myself again, when flashing with the T-mobile ROM it says UPGRADE ONLY. And the read me file says its the wrong RUU. But it is the same file from Tmobile I used when I first got the phone. But I will try again.
Are there any other suggestions?

You need to read the "how to flash" sticky.

I did. I am not any expert or anything but I believe the phone is unlocked already since I once had WM6 on my phone. The real issue I am having is that it wont boot past the splash screen after flashing.
And that is true when re following the steps in guide. After flashing to the button rom it will not boot past the splash screen.

Try another ROM.

Sounds like you need the "Wizard Love" rom. I dont have the link handy but I am sure someone else does.
Drunknasty said:
I did. I am not any expert or anything but I believe the phone is unlocked already since I once had WM6 on my phone. The real issue I am having is that it wont boot past the splash screen after flashing.
And that is true when re following the steps in guide. After flashing to the button rom it will not boot past the splash screen.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse

Already got it. Thanks I am trying to load it now. But the only thing is that the last time it failed and I can understand what the error says. I know the number is 300 but can read the language.
But I will let you guys know when this load completes.
Thanks again for all the assistance.

No worky worky. The load completed and then boots the splash screen shows and then stays there.
Any ideas?

Try to remove the battery and let it out for at least half an hour. Then put it back in and see what it does then.

I thought the same thing too. So when it got done last night, out of frustration, I removed the battery and left it there to wait on when I get off work today. I will report back on what happens.
Again I would like to thank you guys for helping me. I really do appreciate it!

STEP 1 install the original manufacturer ROM
T-mobile UK
http://www.tm-phonedownloads.com/download_manager_mda_vario.html
T-mobile US
http://www.t-mobile.com/wmupgrade/
Search for the original rom for any other
instructions on how to use the original rom can be found here
http://support.t-mobile.com/knowbase/root/public/tm23294.htm?&A2L.SERVICE=AboutUpgrading
Put it in the bootloader mode.. ( three color screens )
hope this helps..
cheers
Praneet

Ok I did that and it gave me ERROR 296: UPGRADE ONLY
Then it tells me that the NBF file cannot be used for my PDA Phone. Please get newer NBF file.
Is there any way I can get the Tmobile splash and IPL\SPL number back to original, it doesnt need to boot all the way into WCE but atleast show the same numbers and splash during boot up?
Or any other way to get this thing to work?
Thanks guys
BTW it is a HTC Wizard from T-mobile.

If you are getting an error 300 you need a newer rom update utility, and regardless if your phone is a G3 or G4 it needs to be unlocked before you flash any rom.. LOAD a OFFICIAL cingular ROM onto your device before going any further, then unlock your phone either via www.imei-check.com or through some of the tools offered here...

Which one should I down load from Cingular? Even though I have a Tmobile phone?

what ipl and spl are you using and what radio are you using. Just post all the numbers from the bootloader

As soon as I get home, I will post them.
Thanks

Ipl 1.01
Spl 3.08
Thanks

Drunknasty said:
Ipl 1.01
Spl 3.08
Thanks
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
uh oh. someone tell me if I'm wrong, but I think this is bad. it's the result of flashing a g4 with g3 or the other way around... keep searching, and good luck.

flash the original t-mobile rom. your phone doesn't appear to be unlocked. good luck

stock on 0% flasahing rom

hello everybody
i started to flash a new rom
Ruu_Signed_Duttys_WM6.1_5.2.19700_Hybrid V2_1_65.14.06[No_CubeV2]
and i think i followd all the instractions but after starting the flashing it stock on 17% after removing the battery as the program said it wont go over 0%
firs i installed kaiser-HardSPLv1 and after that i started to flash the rom and its not working.
pls tell me what to do to save my nice phone
dannt

speebman said:
hello everybody
i started to flash a new rom
Ruu_Signed_Duttys_WM6.1_5.2.19700_Hybrid V2_1_65.14.06[No_CubeV2]
and i think i followd all the instractions but after starting the flashing it stock on 17% after removing the battery as the program said it wont go over 0%
firs i installed kaiser-HardSPLv1 and after that i started to flash the rom and its not working.
pls tell me what to do to save my nice phone
dannt
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
"think" you followed all the directions?

sorry for my bad english or leak of knolge in this part of the world i just read so much regarding this subject ant the more i read the more i got confused
so i just sow the first logical faq and followd him, plz i need my phone all my life is in their, help me.
danny

speebman said:
hello everybody
i started to flash a new rom
Ruu_Signed_Duttys_WM6.1_5.2.19700_Hybrid V2_1_65.14.06[No_CubeV2]
and i think i followd all the instractions but after starting the flashing it stock on 17% after removing the battery as the program said it wont go over 0%
firs i installed kaiser-HardSPLv1 and after that i started to flash the rom and its not working.
pls tell me what to do to save my nice phone
dannt
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Things that will help others help you:
1. where are you located?
2. who is your provider
3. what ROM WERE you on?
4. ok - you had a phone that was working - and you did:
a. what did you do first?
b. second?
c. etc.
Your message KINDA indicates that you flashed a ROM and had issues - so you THEN flash HARDSPL? was that successful?
Bill

im from israel but my phone is from uk i think, my original rom was the HTC 6.1
i just run the kaiser-HardSPLv1 program and then i started flashing the rom duty 6.1 rom and it stoped at 17% like the program said i removed the batery and started the flashing prosse again but now it doesny even go above 0%, now im stock in the tri color screan
its writen
kais130
spl-3.28.0000
cpld-8
and usb in the littel whait screan

speebman said:
im from israel but my phone is from uk i think, my original rom was the HTC 6.1
i just run the kaiser-HardSPLv1 program and then i started flashing the rom duty 6.1 rom and it stoped at 17% like the program said i removed the batery and started the flashing prosse again but now it doesny even go above 0%, now im stock in the tri color screan
its writen
kais130
spl-3.28.0000
cpld-8
and usb in the littel whait screan
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
you don't have hardSPL installed..! surprise, surprise

u don't have hardspl flashed from bootloader info u provided. flash hardspl be4 flashing any roms.
please search and read; this has been answered many times.
p.s. use the new hardspl by jocky which is a sticky in this forum.

speebman said:
im from israel but my phone is from uk i think, my original rom was the HTC 6.1
i just run the kaiser-HardSPLv1 program and then i started flashing the rom duty 6.1 rom and it stoped at 17% like the program said i removed the batery and started the flashing prosse again but now it doesny even go above 0%, now im stock in the tri color screan
its writen
kais130
spl-3.28.0000
cpld-8
and usb in the littel whait screan
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
OK - I do not think that you got the HARDSPL installed on your phone correctly - BECAUSE - I believe that it would say OLIPOF or JOCKY on it and it does not.
I have not seen the new HARDSPL 328 and 329 but it LOOKS like to me that you did not successfully get the HARDSPL on your phone.
Personally - I would scan the message boards for GSLEON3 (user name) and send him a private message - there are many others that can help you and he or others MAY come trolling by and take pity on you - but at the moment he is the one that helps people in your situation the most from what I have seen.
I would NOT continue to work on it myself as you can definitely mess your phone up permanently. Does your phone still go into boot loader mode? If so - can you flash the required HARDSPL onto your phone?
Find a message that GSLEON3 has left and then lik on his name and send him a private message - he is very nice - BUT - he is VERY busy - continue to be nice and he will most likely get you back and running.
Bill

first of all thank u for the help
but, wich one i need? 28 or 29?
and how do i do this spl if i cant copy them to my device.
danny

speebman said:
first of all thank u for the help
but, wich one i need? 28 or 29?
and how do i do this spl if i cant copy them to my device.
danny
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Danny -
Deep cleansing breaths here ok?
1. personally - I would PUT BACK what ever you had on your phone and get it running again - trying at this point to get ot to go to a different ROM is not a good idea right at this minute.
2. 28 and 29 from what I read makes no difference - users try each one to see which one works better on THEIR flashed ROM.
3. What I would do is look for the HARDSPL that goes with what you had loaded to begin with - or the actual SPL that came with your original ROM and put that one back.
I would be stuck here because I have to use JUMPSPL on my phone because I get the white screen - but I THINK that (don't quote me because I do not do it this way) if you don't get the white screen you can just flash the HARDSPL to your phone without JUMPSPL (having to be able to copy something to your phone.
HOWEVER - if you cannot or do not know how to continue from reading the WIKI - you MUST request help from a professional - I have already recommended one. (GSLEON3)
Bill

my active sink is not seeing the devais, maby MTTY? wil help

speebman said:
my active sink is not seeing the devais, maby MTTY? wil help
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Based on your current track record, I wouldn't suggest you use MTTY as you have a VERY HIGH probability of bricking your phone (ie: it won't ever be usable again).

so im fu--.

Can you get the phone into the bootloader mode? Turn the phone off (pull the battery if you have to) then press and hold the camera button while you turn the phone on. You should get to a tri-color screen (this is the boot loader). Now plug in the USB cord and see if it switches from saying Serial to USB. If so, you can try flashing AN OFFICIAL ROM THAT WAS MEANT FOR YOUR PHONE (ie: Don't try to put an offical AT&T rom on an Orange). When you run the RUU program it will tell you that you need to have ActiveSync working, but don't worry about that. If your phone in bootloader shows USB, you can continue on.
BUT AGAIN... You need the Official rom that was meant for your device. Since you are not HardSPL'd you have to do it this way.
If you don't understand any of that, or have questions, don't just try it hoping you get it right...
As stated previously, it would be well worth you time to get someone like GSLEON to assist if you can.

mfrazzz said:
Can you get the phone into the bootloader mode? Turn the phone off (pull the battery if you have to) then press and hold the camera button while you turn the phone on. You should get to a tri-color screen (this is the boot loader). Now plug in the USB cord and see if it switches from saying Serial to USB. If so, you can try flashing AN OFFICIAL ROM THAT WAS MEANT FOR YOUR PHONE (ie: Don't try to put an offical AT&T rom on an Orange). When you run the RUU program it will tell you that you need to have ActiveSync working, but don't worry about that. If your phone in bootloader shows USB, you can continue on.
BUT AGAIN... You need the Official rom that was meant for your device. Since you are not HardSPL'd you have to do it this way.
If you don't understand any of that, or have questions, don't just try it hoping you get it right...
As stated previously, it would be well worth you time to get someone like GSLEON to assist if you can.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
thank you!!!!!!1
i have flashed to my priviuas rom the original 6.1 htc rom and now its ok!!!
tnk

speebman said:
thank you!!!!!!1
i have flashed to my priviuas rom the original 6.1 htc rom and now its ok!!!
tnk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Cool. Glad that worked for you.... NOW, your next task is to read and understand ALL the steps before you try flashing a custom rom. HardSPL that sucker (but understand and follow EVERY step before you try that) and then you should be good to go...

my only problem is that their are so many strings of information and so many threads even wiki is confusing.
i will try to do this after i will make some order it all of this.
tnx again 4 the help
danny

speebman said:
my only problem is that their are so many strings of information and so many threads even wiki is confusing.
i will try to do this after i will make some order it all of this.
tnx again 4 the help
danny
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes it is, but if you read this sticky at the top, it should help (start with noob guide which is the first link I think):
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=369282

speebman said:
my only problem is that their are so many strings of information and so many threads even wiki is confusing.
i will try to do this after i will make some order it all of this.
tnx again 4 the help
danny
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not to be mean but if you have red Wiki and looked at threads here and they "don't make sense to you". You really have no business flashing a rom. If you don't understand what you are doing sooner or later you will brick your phone from your lack of knowledge and it will be no ones fault but your own.
I am really surprised people were willing to repeat what has been typed out hundreds and hundreds of times on these forums.
Welcome to XDA

HELP! Bricked!

Tried to flash my wizard from the sd card, computers down. Renamed the nbf file to the name of cingulars stock rom.Went into bootloader, it asked download sd image, hit voice call, got BINFS success, then checksum error. Now my baby won't come out of bootloader. How can I fix this? Will card flash with the tmob stock rom work? Does anyone have a cingular 2.25, 2.25 rom? Is it totally FUBAR? Please help, can't get to a computer.

Sometimes I will get the splash screen, showing ipl/spl 2.25. It is cid unlocked.

As long as you can get to the boot loader you haven’t bricked your phone.
However I would use a computer to flash the ROM, I haven’t read about any success from SD.
“Cingular 8125 ROM Link”

it is easy
use this link tools but this is in spanish
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?p=1232665
using this tools you can make work your baby (just roms to flash from version 1.05 to wizard love and the last rom you like)
if you dont understand the spanish letme know or PM

Please do post in English
This could be why I haven’t read anything, does it work?

Thanks all! Now my stupid power switch thingy fell off soooooo I think I'm just gonna buy a new phone. Hey, now the ol' man can't be mad!

I am back in business! Thank you all soooooooo much! I had an old wizard with a busted screen, with SNN wm6.1 rom. I took main board and switched with toasted one and VOILA! Still haven't fixed power button but can turn on with hard reset sequence.I just hit red button instead of green.

witch1 said:
I am back in business! Thank you all soooooooo much! I had an old wizard with a busted screen, with SNN wm6.1 rom. I took main board and switched with toasted one and VOILA! Still haven't fixed power button but can turn on with hard reset sequence.I just hit red button instead of green.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Great to hear tht!! But i guess ur Computer is not working for more 2 mnths how can u live without it??

xda2_haseeb said:
Great to hear tht!! But i guess ur Computer is not working for more 2 mnths how can u live without it??
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Its not easy! I'm getting all weird, according to tha husband!!!!!! But, at least, I still can go online with my wizard and nokia and thats what matters.

witch1 said:
Its not easy! I'm getting all weird, according to tha husband!!!!!! But, at least, I still can go online with my wizard and nokia and thats what matters.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I dont live in USA, else i would have fixed your PC, for you the first day it got down... I love PCs and cant see sick "I wish your PC Get Well Soon !!" by the way what is the problem with it? maybe i can solve it from here

Error [244] : Invalid model id

After loading the Stylez Black v.4 WM6.1 21051 D3D 101MB Full rom my phone give some problems, so i want to go back to the T-Mobile ROM.
But when i am trying to get this rom on the phone with this help i get now the ERROR [244] : INVALID MODEL ID warring, and looked with the search here but i get a lot of different options soms topics are more than 2 years old and that is not working.
So, what can i do to load a new rom or how do i get the orginal rom back on the phone?
plz help....
Thanks in advance...

Maybe this can help you http://wiki.xda-developers.com/index.php?pagename=HTC_Kaiser
Or this too http://wiki.xda-developers.com/index.php?pagename=Kaiser_ROMs

No solutions found...
Anyone ?? Please?

Hard-SPL bypasses Vendor Model check so shouldn't have any problem flashing any stock ROM have you tried others? Try and flash a HTC or AT&T stock, just a bizarre thing as everyone flashes stocks at some point especially if nearly brick and peeps generally flash stocks to bypass 6.5 hard-reset issue.
Can you go into bootloader and reply with Hard-SPL you have?
Also another way is to try flashing via SD, info in the flashing for noobs guide in sticky.

Same Issue
Hi,
I also use Hard SPL to flash new ROMs, however i also face the same issue with certain roms, currently i remember i has similar issues with ATNT rom.

Ok, or i am a realy noob or i doing somthing wrong...
Now when ik start the phone i get the Tri Color : (Red, Green, Blue Screen)
I did a hard reset en now the phone shows the boot screen (Stylez)
When i take the batterij off and put it in after 20 secs again or the tri color or the boot screen is loading or the screen is black.....
Please don't say that i can trow him into the trash...

All you have described there is normal. Now just follow the noobs guide to flashing in the sticky and do everything it says word for word. If the usb method doesnt work then use the sd card way.

stuntdouble said:
All you have described there is normal.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ok, best news this week for me...
stuntdouble said:
Now just follow the noobs guide to flashing in the sticky and do everything it says word for word. If the usb method doesnt work then use the sd card way.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sorry but i want to be shure, you mean this topic?
And if so, how do i load the rom?
Because the phone is not starting up normal,...
If you want i can make screenshots from the pc and make images so you can see?
Sorry for this noob questions....

Yes that is the thread I meant. So did you follow all that was said to do in the link about kaiser stuck at tri colour screen bootloader?

Ok, tryed but with the boot screen and with the Tri Color screen i can not make any USB connection with MTTY, when i start the kaiser with the camera button and with the powerbuton i can connect (USB is also an option (COM1 and COM2 also)).
But is this a correct move?

*contacted user via MSN*
Also tried several steps using the SD card but the phone will still hang into the tri-colour. It says loading, but won't reboot or do anything else.
Suggestions are still open.
FYI: It's a branded phone and wasn't CID-unlocked before. (Still not AFAIK)