Database Info

ATTN: Moderator

Could you please either add Nitros' and vjgrace's ROMs to the sticked theads at the top, or unsticky Andot's and Phil's?
Or alternatively, make a sticky thread for people to advertise their ROMs. Maybe the cooks can PM you the details of their builds and links to their threads for you to add posts to a mod-postable only thread so that it doesn't become cluttered, and questions and support for the various ROMs will take place only in their own threads...
Please understand, Andot's and Phil's efforts are excellent and well-respected but have somewhat lapsed in development and support and are no longer the most current or stable builds.
Yet the stickiness of their threads lends to newcomers jumping directly to those ROMs and consequently asking for help with issues other ROM cookers have already resolved...

Sticky Opinion...
I think we ought to replace the three stickies listed with one ROM MetaSticky that has links to the current stuck threads as well as the other ROM builds and some high level summaries on each build such as...
Who built it
When it was first released
When it was last updated
A link to the current thread
I think this would save a lot of questions. If someone wanted to be really creative they could write a summary of features or add a matrix with a feature comparison or maybe a poll for who is using that build.
Opinions?

I agree with unsticking the current two ROM stickies. The two authors haven't been around for a while, and the ROMs in the stickies haven't been updated in months. When, and if, Phil is back with a new ROM, that can go back up.

I agree. The two current roms that are 'sticked' are very outdated. The more recent roms should be there.

kkrull said:
I think we ought to replace the three stickies listed with one ROM MetaSticky that has links to the current stuck threads as well as the other ROM builds and some high level summaries on each build such as...
Who built it
When it was first released
When it was last updated
A link to the current thread
I think this would save a lot of questions. If someone wanted to be really creative they could write a summary of features or add a matrix with a feature comparison or maybe a poll for who is using that build.
Opinions?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I thought that's what I was trying to say...b
Basically, each post of the thread would have the contents of the first post of the ROM's thread; but not the download link, just the features and version numbers...
I also think a nice ROM posting convention would be for the poster/cook to reserve the second post of the thread (just fill it with useless text or something) for a Changes Log.
It's nice to see that the original info updated, but many posts show up asking if x is still there or where y went...
But then again, it begins to sound like work.. doesn't it?

Exitao said:
I thought that's what I was trying to say...b
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Pretty much. I wrote the same thing before reading your post so I just moved my post underneath yours.

Are any of the moderators even paying attention here? Sounds like a bunch of us talking among ourselves...

I've stickied the 3 recent roms

kkrull said:
Pretty much. I wrote the same thing before reading your post so I just moved my post underneath yours.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
OK good. I was just worried that I wasn't understandable. Again.

meschle said:
I've stickied the 3 recent roms
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yay! Squeeky wheel for teh win!!!!1!!!one

meschle said:
I've stickied the 3 recent roms
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Alright! Someone was paying attention!

Forum Organization Idea

First and formost, thanks to all the chefs out there, i've crossed over from a crackberry and I'm so glad I did thanks to this forum.
I have one suggestion: As I love to flash new ROMs allllll the time (I'm sure most here are as addicted as I am), I'm having some trouble keeping track of what ROMS are new and which are older but still being discussed.
Please give all your incites on the idea of a STICKY thread made just for for ROM uploading. Then there can be different threads for the discussion of each ROM (issues, fixes, etc...)
This would make it alot easier for everyone to see whats new and compare ROMs.
Please let me know what ou think.
If enough people think it's a good idea then maybe we can make it happen?!
Please vote in the poll above
Thanks again.

I believe we wanted to clear out a lot of the stickies so the page don't get filled up with a whole bunch of stickies. There is a rom page with links, but I don't believe it is being mantained.

Nope, xda make it mandatory that cooks put their meals on the table. By that I mean put the links to their thread in the ROM list thread.

MorKraiser said:
First and formost, thanks to all the chefs out there, i've crossed over from a crackberry and I'm so glad I did thanks to this forum.
I have one suggestion: As I love to flash new ROMs allllll the time (I'm sure most here are as addicted as I am), I'm having some trouble keeping track of what ROMS are new and which are older but still being discussed.
Please give all your incites on the idea of a STICKY thread made just for for ROM uploading. Then there can be different threads for the discussion of each ROM (issues, fixes, etc...)
This would make it alot easier for everyone to see whats new and compare ROMs.
Please let me know what ou think.
If enough people think it's a good idea then maybe we can make it happen?!
Please vote in the poll above
Thanks again.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yea, it's in the sticky you missed at the top of this page, where you want this new sticky added.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=343198
Where it says:
Sticky: All Significant Kaiser Upgrading Links. Start Here!
Just click that link, then look for:
List of Kaiser Rom Threads and Download Links

Pointless and repititive threads make finding ROM releases thread difficult. (period)

IMHO new roms should have two threads each: one for the rom and for the chef or an assistant to post updated specific instructions and bug-fixes and another one for the 200 pages of chatter.

i suggest to do a board read only who only developers can post his rom with every update.
with vbb u can do everything u want. Simply create a group and give permissions to post that board.
for adding to that group they must demostrate they are developing a rom...
for assistence another board where to talk about custom roms.

I believe it's a good idea to have a one point to start flashing and this could be the Wiki section of each device where noobies can read the instructions before starting flashing their devices ... I think this will also reduce many repeated mistakes and questions.
To make it even more clear, maybe our mods should impose a unified form for this section like to include:
Chef name
Cook version
OS version
Build number
Radio version (if included)
Addressed device (ATT, HTC, ...)
Brief about the contents
Bugs/known issues
Download link(s)
a link to the discussion thread

Can we use subforums???
kaiser>
roms>
problems
???

It's more important to me to be able to tell which threads are new and which threads are just updated...
This way we will be able to choose to read our favorite (excisting) threads first and after that look for new started threads so we know about new problems/ideas/ROMs (!!)...
Or the other way around ofcourse...

This forum is what we as a community make of it. Everything can't be heaped upon the back of the Moderators. There are only like 30 or so of us to thousands of registered members.
Members need to step up and help get & keep things organized. Use the Wiki, learn how to and & edit pages there.
When you see crap threads, report them to the Mods instead of inciting a flame-war on a noob.
The bottom line if you aren't part of the solution then you are part of the problem, inaction is just as harmful as negative action.

I actually have a reformat of the Custom ROM wiki page floating around here on my work computer. It's sorted first by OS (6.0 or 6.1) then by Chef, then by date (newest first). I need to see if I can put my hands on it to actually place it up on the wiki. Though it'll require that people actually take the time to add the new ROMs as they come out. Remember, the forum is more than one person...as is the wiki.
I'll try to get to that this afternoon unless someone has a massive issue with it...

New Wiki page is up for Cooked ROMs here. Still needs some work but that should be a good start for better organization and maintainability.

jarek91 said:
New Wiki page is up for Cooked ROMs here. Still needs some work but that should be a good start for better organization and maintainability.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's some great work jarek91!!! That's the spirit! As stated in other threads, I only care for those who contribute. Whining n00bs should be flamed on first post

jarek91 said:
New Wiki page is up for Cooked ROMs here. Still needs some work but that should be a good start for better organization and maintainability.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
awesome bro! thanks for that!
Cheers

What version of Duttys 6.1 is best?

Build 19199 or Build 5.2.19716 updated FEB 20.2008 seems to be the newer one?

i personally prefer 19716 build but you can try both and figure it out. there was no need to open a whole new thread just 4 this question.

It's a perfectly valid question dude.
Like most people I am frustrated by people asking the same questions again and again, but I am concerned that this forum is in danger of heading down a bad road by bashing noobs at every opportunity.

Rabangus said:
It's a perfectly valid question dude.
Like most people I am frustrated by people asking the same questions again and again, but I am concerned that this forum is in danger of heading down a bad road by bashing noobs at every opportunity.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes it's a perfectly valid question to ask in Dutty's thread about his ROM not creating a whole new thread about it.

totally agree.
You could argue this is like asking a parent which one of their kids they like the most!
Best thing is to try both and see which you prefer. There will be advocates for both.
ps don't try that with your kids. it will end you up in jail.

I use each rom on my 2 tilts. I feel that 197 is more stable. 191 sometimes freeze if you push some buttons whil they are booting up. doesn't happen to 197.

No disrespect to anyone here on the board, but Dutty's thread is quickly becoming useless to me. I'm not going to weed through 330+ pages of replies to try to follow a conversation or find a piece of information in there. That thread is quickly becoming it's own universe.
I'm glad this thread was started - It's good information for me that I wouldn't have otherwise found.
Regards,
Jeff

trick420 said:
No disrespect to anyone here on the board, but Dutty's thread is quickly becoming useless to me. I'm not going to weed through 330+ pages of replies to try to follow a conversation or find a piece of information in there. That thread is quickly becoming it's own universe.
I'm glad this thread was started - It's good information for me that I wouldn't have otherwise found.
Regards,
Jeff
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Here's the point....I garuntee if you post in there with a question it will be answered...there's no point in making a new thread....that's all I'm saying.

alltheway said:
Here's the point....I garuntee if you post in there with a question it will be answered...there's no point in making a new thread....that's all I'm saying.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Posted a question ... no answer.
That thread is bull....
It took me 5 minutes to even find my posting.
The thread might make sense if someone was moderating it ... meaning putting questions into the first post with links to answers. But this? Bull!

coolVariable said:
Posted a question ... no answer.
That thread is bull....
It took me 5 minutes to even find my posting.
The thread might make sense if someone was moderating it ... meaning putting questions into the first post with links to answers. But this? Bull!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah, all threads suffer from this, and I'm also totally agreeing with you, I'm also in the same situation, cannot read hundreds of posts and pages of every ROM thread to find out if it's a suitable one to upgrade to. Trying out so many ROMs until satisfied is not an option for me (ok, I'd admit trying a few, but not every version of every flavour of wm6.1), I want to find one to get rid of my german wm6.0 and have iGo still working, and no issues more than with 6.0.
An updated FAQ in the beginning posts of the respective threads would be useful, but even better, real wiki articles (not just links back to forum threads). Don't want to upset people who discovered the Internet just when these forums where already around, but on mailing lists information and discussions where easier to follow and filter...
Just my 0.2€...

Back to the question: which is the best?
Let me tell you: the new 19716 RTM out to come soon will be the best and fastest ever!!!

Old Stickies

Post any comments\questions\suggestions below...

What about a sticky thread for all ROMs?

I think it should remain active, but grouped in a single post under the name olds sticky, so this is easier to locate.
Greetings.

Yes, if an [OLD] tag would be added the stickies would be cleaner.
But the best sollution would be for everyone to make fresh ROMs!

KALI2000 said:
I think it should remain active, but grouped in a single post under the name olds sticky, so this is easier to locate.
Greetings.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
agree 100%

I voted "Yes", but I'd like to see a rollup sticky for at least a few months after the last update...

KALI2000 said:
I think it should remain active, but grouped in a single post under the name olds sticky, so this is easier to locate.
Greetings.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
One more for this option

i'm sorry for my ignorance but what is exactly a stiky?

We've got too many stickies at the moment and it's hard to keep track of all the different build numbers, so I think we should have a single sticky post which links to the following wiki page:
http://wiki.xda-developers.com/index.php?pagename=Universal_Cooked_ROMs

kalimah said:
i'm sorry for my ignorance but what is exactly a stiky?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Stickies are those threads that stay at the top of the first page of threads, even if no one posts in them for a while. You will notice they have "Sticky" to the left of their name.
no1 said:
We've got too many stickies at the moment and it's hard to keep track of all the different build numbers, so I think we should have a single sticky post which links to the following wiki page:
http://wiki.xda-developers.com/index.php?pagename=Universal_Cooked_ROMs
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The problem with that Wiki page is that the ROM developers don't update\maintain it
I'll probably have a go at updating it after my exams are over.

I have all the respect for Jwrightmcps's ROMS ..thats how I started with Universal Cooked ROMs..however honestly..it would be nice if the cooker let an update if he was working on something or not....
Based on that...if the cooker leaves no update on what he's doing next I think the ROM sticky needs to go...in fact I agree with the [OLD] thread subject update. Its a good idea however better than that would be to open a seperate small subsection (subforum) for each device called Archived ROMs...anything thats over a 6 month timeframe is considered old with the latest technology updates and the fact that new rom's are shooting out (for other devices and brought over here) at the speed of light. We have seen more than 10 devices launched in the span of a year, which is amazing considering a few years ago ...it was quite the opposite...
I personally feel old rom's need to be archived (let people search them out, thats what SEARCH is for, or a subsection forum). It helps in another way. How many times do we see threads asking for "What's the best ROM to use" ... if a ROM is almost bugfree (or has no issues or bug reports since the last 6 months), they stay sticky (even if theres no development for a future rom) - this ensures that its close to stable and is worth STICKY even though its not the "latest thing" (its stable or close to stable).
Removing old rom's isnt the best idea, since it leaves us missing the past history of what the developers did and how far we all got. History should remain an integral part of the forum, however history needs no sticky. The Fast, Furious and the Stablest needs recognition. Obviously the old is gold - saying remains but not for a sticky. The idea of sticky is - GO HERE, IT's Important..historically yes, the old roms are milestones, however you have a search system for that...
Further the fact that you have Wikis for a few developers now, lets them post an update and a link to the past thread - the perfect History book (updated to today). I think that's how we should go further...The latest , stablest roms are setup as sticky OR optionally each developer has his own sticky thread - first post links to HIS/HER WIKI...for tons of information and links to old threads/roms....
I think thats the best way to go..however these are my thoughts based on what I would prefer .... suggestions will vary...but I think I make sense (at least to myself)

TehPenguin said:
The problem with that Wiki page is that the ROM developers don't update\maintain it
I'll probably have a go at updating it after my exams are over.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Exactly my point...if developers dont update it..they arent very interested or sure about it (or they dont have time). I feel wiki is the way to go. Developers should feel the time (or have a few fans) to fill in the details. Dutty updates his wiki (well he's on vacation so cant blame him on missing the latest if he did)...
I think Wiki makes a lot of sense and you have to start to use it. If we say people dont have the time to use or update wiki...maybe we should drop the wiki...(which wont happen)...the point is...Wiki is definitely a good thing to look at and develop on.

Hi all,
I have made a new thread here http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=398647
please can all devs add links to their roms in this thread, please nobody else post anything on this thread to keep it clean. I have requested that the mods remove any posts from this thread that do not contain rom links from Devs.
I have also requested that our old rom thread be released from sticky as I have added links to most of our (Beasty & Laurentius26) Roms in this main thread.
Good point D.
Cheers,
Beasty

beast0898 said:
Hi all,
I have made a new thread here http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=398647
please can all devs add links to their roms in this thread, please nobody else post anything on this thread to keep it clean. I have requested that the mods remove any posts from this thread that do not contain rom links from Devs.
I have also requested that our old rom thread be released from sticky as I have added links to most of our (Beasty & Laurentius26) Roms in this main thread.
Good point D.
Cheers,
Beasty
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I've stickied your thread, though I would much rather people use the wiki page...

TehPenguin said:
I've stickied your thread, though I would much rather people use the wiki page...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks mate,
I'll try and get round to doing the Wiki too, some time soon.
Getting a bit more free time now, time to get "the house in order" before moving on to the Pro.
I agree the Wiki should be done, I also believe a sticky thread for all WM6/WM6.1 Roms is very usefull in this forum though.
When did you become a mod sir?
Cheers,
Beasty

beast0898 said:
Thanks mate,
I'll try and get round to doing the Wiki too, some time soon.
Getting a bit more free time now, time to get "the house in order" before moving on to the Pro.
I agree the Wiki should be done, I also believe a sticky thread for all WM6/WM6.1 Roms is very usefull in this forum though.
When did you become a mod sir?
Cheers,
Beasty
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I became a mod about a week ago - thanks (I think) to our good friend Midget_1990
For the stickies, I think we'll have it that the latest ROMs get stickied and have the wiki\rolled up sticky for all ROMs, current or previous

Congrets
TehPenguin said:
I became a mod about a week ago - thanks (I think) to our good friend Midget_1990
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Congrets, my friend!!
You achieved it but no PARTY...!!!
cheers

I think some old Roms need to be sticky, e.g BL's 2.08.01. That came out long ago, it was stable and perfect and he didn't contributed anything as non-beta since that. Removing the track of such is unfair to the Devs I believe.

oqaab said:
I think some old Roms need to be sticky, e.g BL's 2.08.01. That came out long ago, it was stable and perfect and he didn't contributed anything as non-beta since that. Removing the track of such is unfair to the Devs I believe.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have a sticky with a link to all my roms, and hope that other devs will add to that thread a post with all their rom versions and links.
I still prefer my old 2.07.05 FF, I think that was the best I have released, but everyone has their own preferences.
Maybe I will release one more Rom before moving on to Touch Pro, time will tell.
Cheers,
Beasty

Hmmm, I see some contradictions already as to the purpose of this thread.
In my opinion I think it should be settled first what thread deserves as sticky. I would say first & foremost to go in is the Wiki, saves us & newbies from doing search for Universal essentials... unlocking, flashing, bootloader upgrade, page pool setup, etc., etc. etc.
A link to all the published ROM's probably organized by owner or by version (WM5, WM6, WM6.1, etc.) can be part of the wiki as well. Another working model is what our new mod & this thread owner TehPenguin is doing: A ROM repository. Point a link to it inside the Wiki and we can have a 'cleaner' forum threads.
Was wondering also why not all 'new' ROM's get stickied irregardless if its not the builder who posted it, any criteria in this matter?
My thoughts shared.

Conventional ROM naming? Chefs and Moderators friendly

The dates on the ROMs lately are getting very confusing due to the same ROMs appearing with different dates just for correcting a bug. (This could be because chefs are trying to get recognition by getting more hits on a thread – which looks good but imagine having to go through the frustration of reading a 3oo-page long thread just to find an answer)
The original date of the ROM does help!!
This is just an observation with suggestions. Please do not bite.
•New ROM
Wouldn’t it be appropriate if there was a dating convention followed by the ROM name and version?
(e.g.: (MMMM/dd/yyyy) xyz v1 xxx)
•Bugs Fixes
However, if there was or were bug(s) correction the same thread title could be updated to:
(e.g.: (MMMM/dd/yyyy) xyz v1xxx Updated MMMM/dd/yyyy)
•Major changes or fixes
Going forward, we will have major fixes or add-ons in a ROM that will result in the following:
(e.g.: (MMMM/dd/yyyy) xyz v1.1 xxx)
I think this would help with searches for ROMs and hopefully avoid new thread created by NOOBs like me complaining or reporting bugs about a specific ROM

Is this a joke?

Dude, I'm not going to flame you... heck, I'm not even a chef.
But if I was I would name my baby what ever I wanted.

smuook said:
Dude, I'm not going to flame you... heck, I'm not even a chef.
But if I was I would name my baby what ever I wanted.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Suggestion suggestion suggestion.. Sorry if that offends anyone. Yes to xda I am a noob but not to the development world.
I think making it easy for other to find is appropriate

smuook said:
Dude, I'm not going to flame you... heck, I'm not even a chef.
But if I was I would name my baby what ever I wanted.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The chefs can name their roms whatever they wish, smuook. It's just, tricsio suggests to include some kind of categorization, such as he himself proposed in his post.

tricsio said:
Suggestion suggestion suggestion.. Sorry if that offends anyone. Yes to xda I am a noob but not to the development world.
I think making it easy for other to find is appropriate
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Point taken.

Please shutdown the thread if this is not well received or found not to be a fit. I apologize for having a view

tricsio said:
Please shutdown the thread if this is not well received or found not to be a fit. I apologize for having a view
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You make a valid point as it makes sense to me but the chefs (wish I could understand cooking a bit better) can do whatever they like as they produce excitement and great roms for all of us and themselves.

I agree with your point. Hopefully chef's will go along with it, as I agree it would make browsing the threads a bit easier.

It's not a bad idea... and it's worthy of discussion. My bluntness in my first comments were not intended to shut down the conversation. If chef's want to weigh in on this they can... Usually the first three or so posts the most chefs make in their thread gives everything you need to know about the ROM. I'm pretty much on this board every day... although I do more reading than posting. So I guess I just know who the chef's are... and usually what kind of ROMs they make and develop. btw, there's been a lot of new ones (new to Kaiser that is) putting out great ROMs so maybe they would be up for this idea... I guess you just have to ask them.

i agree with OP
it is a good concept but i doubt that every chef will abide by it. be nice if they did.

richabi said:
it is a good concept but i doubt that every chef will abide by it. be nice if they did.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
very good point (this guy really kick my (_)(_)) but he didnt point to me right? we just to make sure our rom is still in one thread if there is no major changes | richabi, ur avatar is really good. five star!

I've been seeing some really bad file naming recently.
makes it harder to keep up what's actually new and updated.
If people can just keep the same filename and add something else at the end if there is a fix or update.
Also avoid adding special characters to a filename. eg. @ROMEOS_v3_5.zip
should just have letters, numbers, period (.), underscore (_), hyphen (-) should be acceptable.
This also makes things easier to search and get better results.

f1ip said:
I've been seeing some really bad file naming recently.
makes it harder to keep up what's actually new and updated.
If people can just keep the same filename and add something else at the end if there is a fix or update.
Also avoid adding special characters to a filename. eg. @ROMEOS_v3_5.zip
should just have letters, numbers, period (.), underscore (_), hyphen (-) should be acceptable.
This also makes things easier to search and get better results.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
ok, now that one was pointed at you

mbarvian said:
ok, now that one was pointed at you
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
had to..
i can point out HyperDragon rom too.. but most of his files are ok. just has the habit of updating files but not the filename.

f1ip said:
had to..
i can point out HyperDragon rom too.. but most of his files are ok. just has the habit of updating files but not the filename.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
hehe noted. actually the zip is following my working folder. yesterday so sleepy & tired so didnt change the name to Angelina Jolie

Who gives a _ _ _ _ what a Rom is called...., you'd still flash it.
The 1st 3 pages of the Rom thread is MORE than enough for you to figure out which Rom is which.
Even if there was some type of standardization with the names of the Roms, some dip-_ _ _ _ would still get confused and start a dumbass thread!

I think the original poster has a very valid point.
Some recently posted ROMS are posted, then that particular ROM significantly modified and posted under the same topic without a version increment or date increment.
Others have modifications and only the topic is changed and not the date IN the topic. We have also seen ROMS released in under other Chefs topics simply because it was based on the prior Chefs ROM, which makes for a total clusterfuck.
A suggested ROM naming convention IMHO would be welcome. Dutty has done a great job in organizing his releases, as has L26. I'm not suggesting the mods enforce a consistent naming convention or anything, just asking that a defacto standard be recommended.

My 2c worth on this and to me, more relevant. What makes browsing/searching these threads on this fantastic forum very difficult and frustrating, is the "Senior Members" getting grumpy and flaming junior members and noobs for asking dumb questions. We all have to start somewhere, and its easy for those in the know to say "SEARCH THE F...G FORUMS" but with your flaming generating an extra 40 pages of text for us to search through, per thread, YOU are making it MORE difficult for us to find what we need in the first place! If you kids don't like the question, IGNORE IT and save EVERYONE else the extra 40 pages of CRAP to sift through. If possible, even DELETE the really dumb posts. That would give the dumb question askers a good message! So, delete this post if you will... use it, don't use it... I'm expecting some immature nerd freak to flame me on this...

Great idea, and it's actually quite standard in everywhere else. Ind I think that it might be a standard here, at least, was. But then when time goes and more users coming, standards are getting relaxed and forgotten as practices.
IMHO, this idea is valid not only for ROMs but also for CABs and all related files/attachments.
But again, it's up to the Chefs, whether they want to abide to this or not. Even I must say, that if they follow this, it will show that they have a class/standard on their own. Which will make them more respectful to this community.
====
Another fine example that not all noobs are only giving stupid and silly ideas. Actually, you can say that many noobs are not so noobs at all!