Database Info

Someone selling WM6 on eBay

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Windows-Mobil...oryZ3312QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Well I must admit this is pretty low, chances are the person selling it is on this board too.
Selling your own hard work is fine, selling others non profitable hard work is pathetic, I hope the person responsible is feeling very guilty about now!

That stinks, someone should find out who this guy is?
£1.99 very appealing until you see he is charging £8.01 for postage on an electronic download.
Maybe he'll donate the money to xda developers - I don't think.

He did donate though, not much.

wm06 on ebay
Hi guys
As there is apx 244,000 members on here perhaps we should ALL ask him a question about where its from - wonder what ebay's response would be?
It might stop him from profiting from others hard work - unless of course it is genuine
regards
jon

Link please?
What a stupid person ! ! !
If it is for Universal, Video Calling is not properly working yet and he/she will be screwed.

Link is in the first post, yes he is selling the Universal without the video call!!

Have asked the question lets see what he comes back with!

WM6
Don`t think anyone will get a reply now as Ebay have removed and cancelled the posting !!...that was quick for a change!!.
Clive

And the account seems to be suspended as well.

hanmin said:
And the account seems to be suspended as well.
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judging by the feedback, hes already made £120 out of it.

Take out his selling fees and that he has been suspended from Ebay and all the trouble he's gone to the profit wasn't worth it...
Should be thrown off this site too...

WM6
Good point stelladel.....
T

Reply from the seller
This is the reply I got from the seller NOT from me personally as from following post it looks if it was me IT IS NOT just to make it as clear as day (and if the mods wish to ban the seller) they can PM me and I will send his name.
I've put an ADD on email with a step by step guide to flash the devices.I've seen a lot of "mod" people bricking their devices due to a bad explanation of the flashing process,complicated links,corrupted files and so on.IE: I myself colected information from a developer site and tried to flash an Imate Jam and after the process was done...it was bricked!!!End of story I ended up with a worthless device and no support whatsoever!!!
So I had this idea of making a friendly step by step guide and offering a support to the buyers in case the flash process goes wrong. And don't tell me it is a risk free process...For instace from the 15 roms I've sold out I had to give support for 3 buyers that even with the step by step guide they manage to not completely follow the steps and needed extra support (such as special roms that are able to recover half bricked devices).
So what I actually offer is a lower risk to the buyers.Up to 85% of my buyers know that these tool I'm selling might be "free" elsewhere. But this "free" means no support as well.So this is a great value for money choice as all the tec stuff and tools needed are gathered together with download links,explanation,step by step guide and support by email or msn or even by phone in English, Portuguese or Spanish.
So this is what I offer. Part of the money gathered are sent to the development site so we can keep improving HTC devices.
Best Regards
(I do have his name but not that evil to post it)

sure, that's why you want 8 Bucks for the Download right?
You suck guy, no one here will believe your stupid "oh i did nothing wrong" bull....
You tried to earn Money with other peoples work and with non-licensed software. You can't deny that and that's exactly why you should be banned out of every single ppc-board (this, pdamobiz, etc) forever.
Everyone gets support here within a few hours, i don't think some like you is only even almost able to replace all the knowledge of the pplz in this and other ppc-boards.
So got and tell your fairytales some who is stupid enough to believe you.

Reply to the seller
Whether you offered support or not is not applicable, the simple fact is you tried to profiteer from other peoples work without their permission.
You broke the ethics of this board in doing so, caused a certain amount of distress - these actions you took without consideration to the developers, or board members.
If you believe you perceived intentions were honourable and justified then that is your opinion. I believe as do others that posted on this topic you were wrong to do so, as apparently do Ebay.

Poll: Are we running a pirated OS (WM6) on our Wizards?

Recently, someone in this thread http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=320018 said that we are all (with a few exceptions) running a pirated OS by installing WM6 on our Wizards. I am not sure that I agree or disagree with that. Please keep your comments focused on the technical aspects of why you think we are or are not pirates.

We are all pirates (As I say besides Ingenetics and any others who officially had the rom loaded by M$).
If you purchase Windows 2000 for example, that does not give you the right to run a pirated version of XP just because you have already purchased one OS version.
Our devices came with WM5 and WM5 is all we are allowed to run in a legal sense.
Im a pirate and I love it

Why not use the original thread that addressed this?
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=319706&highlight=wm6+illegal

I did see that thread, but wanted to set it up as a poll so that people could vote without leaving a comment if they didn't want to.

So, I ask,
If Cingular chooses not to release WM6 that M$ gave them for free allowing them to release it for free to customers, where do I get it? Oh, I have to buy a new $400 device... Hmm...

Yes, that's one of the points that bothers me too. If it's freely given away, then how can it be stealing?

Well, it is a gray area. I do not think that I am wrong from the point of view of my consience (since I have no other possibility - there is no "legal" WM 6 for Wizard).
But - according to the copyrights laws, the above mentioned does not matter... It is a piracy.
There is a similar problem with "abandonware" (when old programs/games are not sold/not available, it is still not legal to use them unless the copyright owner explicitly allows it)...
I do not have any problems with this and I think nobody loses here (I am now a big fan of Windows Mobile and I cannot imagine to buy a mobile phone with another system - I am lost for Symbian/Linux...), but it does not change anything from the legal point of view... It is a piracy.
@mdhensley5: I think it was you who was having problems with version number in WHITERAT's build... Well, unlike that (rather artificall) problem, this is something which is certainly not correct... (sorry, I could not help myself).
Mirek

Hey Mirek, thanks for the comments about the piracy question, but like I said at the beginning, let's keep all comments directed toward the technical aspects of whether or not this is piracy.

Well, It's one of those thigns that could be construed to be piracy if you want to stick to the exact letter of the law. But as was stated earlier there is no WM6 official rom for sale for the Wizard. If there were im sure most of us would buy it. I suppose it's if you want to live by the letter of the law or the spirit of the law. If HTC wants to offer a core rom for purchase that is modifyable to the point as all the current roms then i'll buy it. Until then im running what ive got.
Shane

If mobile carriers have it and can give it away free but they don't only to coerce customers to buy a new device they don't need, is that extortion?
Hmm....
If the company that developed it says it’s free, but they just don’t give a means to get it, then you just have to get it yourself.

hahahaha
like you DIDN'T know you were using hacked M$ code..if you didn't know that you shouldn't be using it anyways in my opinion.
Of course it's pirated, i'm sure even the new members remember M$ was all over this site for a few weeks making sure we didn't release their beans without paying (M$ stingy as apple with copyrights)
Whiterat is right, we're all pirates, I will never, never ever ever purchase another piece of software as I live!

wtf wait up
mdhensley5 said:
Recently, someone said that we are all (with a few exceptions) running a pirated OS by installing WM6 on our Wizards. I am not sure that I agree or disagree with that. Please keep your comments focused on the technical aspects of why you think we are or are not pirates.
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and hey you're the jesus freak that was bashing 'ole boy for a build number...something so pety hahaha so how can you possibly use a pirated OS of ANYTHING?! You just made your baby jesus cry.

BA_Flash_GOD said:
and hey you're the jesus freak that was bashing 'ole boy for a build number...something so pety hahaha so how can you possibly use a pirated OS of ANYTHING?! You just made your baby jesus cry.
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Click to collapse
BA_Flash_GOD,
That's out of line, lets not personally attack each other.

is this a technical question? please abide by the forum rules.
this forum is turning lame.

boldfacelies said:
is this a technical question? please abide by the forum rules.
this forum is turning lame.
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Click to collapse
Now that you say that, I agree!
Lets discuss HTC Wizard techical issues.

calouro said:
BA_Flash_GOD,
That's out of line, lets not personally attack each other, but voice our opinion on the issue at hand.
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Click to collapse
It was no personal attack. It's a factual statement. Got upset for something that small, how can one possibly use stolen code? It is Fact, it's actually HIGHLY illegal. Ask your service providers see what they say.
Anyone is breaking the law here using this, that is out of line haha.. I'm guessing M$ just said oh well they have franken-roms and let it be.
calouro said:
If mobile carriers have it and can give it away free but they don't only to coerce customers to buy a new device they don't need, is that extortion?
Hmm....
If the company that developed it says it’s free, but they just don’t give a means to get it, then you just have to get it yourself.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is nothing new mobile phone providers are not the only ones that do this hahah.. the whole world runs this way.

It's amazing to me that some people can't discuss something without resorting to name calling and personal attacks.

Poor form Admin
mdhensley5 said:
It's amazing to me that some people can't discuss something without resorting to name calling and personal attacks.
Cingular 8125 G4 Locked
OS - NBD 7.9 Touch
"This is a tech forum, keep your religious feelings elsewhere." - added by unamed Admin
Admin, do you feel like a big man now after changing my signature?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hmm...
Hey Admin, ye must be working on changing Samy.3660's signature!
"Prophet (pbuh) said: Be in this world as if you are a stranger or traveller.
If you are interested in religion come here www.gawaher.com/"
I only say this matey, because what's good for one is good for another.
Mdhensley5 did not mention religion, only his opinion and thoughts; he only had a quote in his signature block, just like everyone else. If you censor mdhensley5, you have to censor everyone.
So, keeping to your current form, I expect Samy.3660 signature block to be changed.

Thanks for pointing that out, Captain Jack.

BA_Flash_GOD said:
and hey you're the jesus freak that was bashing 'ole boy for a build number...something so pety hahaha so how can you possibly use a pirated OS of ANYTHING?! You just made your baby jesus cry.
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I'm not religous but comments like yours would quickly make me side with him over just about anything against you. Grow up.

Also Dutties ROM's are being sold on ebay...

http://cgi.ebay.com/WM6-WINDOWS-MOB...ryZ38331QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
??

about: sale
Dust2Dust said:
http://cgi.ebay.com/WM6-WINDOWS-MOB...ryZ38331QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
??
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What???????????, thats is very bad, Dutty send a email to the ebay Listing Violations. this is the link: http://pages.ebay.com/help/contact_us/_base/index_4.html?tier0=report_listing.js&item=290229506456
This seller need to stop sell your rom, you do all the hard work and they make money for your work.

It cant be stopped... Its crap but true...

All5tars said:
It cant be stopped... Its crap but true...
Click to expand...
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Please elaborate.
It makes me sick, if you look at this guys ebay postings he is almost exclusively selling other people's "free" software.
Now, legally he could sell a service...say helping you install Dutty's on your phone, but I believe that is against ebay policy (selling a service).
Dutty please write to ebay...this guy has apparently had postings removed in the past. Make sure you point that out as well as ALL the software he is selling like yours...the more you can offer the better a case you will have.
Once you write to them and get some feedback, let us know. I think all of us that are ebay members should also write on your behalf (referencing your case ID).
Another thing you can do is to contact high-bidders and winners and let them know what he is doing.
While it may be an arduous process people like this need to be stopped.

I just sent a report violation on ebay claiming it was an OEM violation (since he states he is selling the "official HTC" ROM). I followed it up with this e-mail:
I have just sent in a report for item# 290229506456
It should be removed because it violated ebays policies regarding OEM infringement listed here:
http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/oem.html
This user is selling a copy of Operating System software that is from HTC (OEM) and is legally only available if you have purchased an HTC TyTn II device.
In addition, this user has been selling many products on ebay that are verions of software developed by others and distributed as "free ware" on the internet community.
In fact, this user appears to make a tidy profit to the unwitting public selling the work of others that even it's original authors do not charge for.
I would appreciate if you remove this listing and review all of the user's auctions for similar infringements.
It appears this user has been cautioned in the past and continues to violate these policies.
Thank you.
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I would encourage other user's to do the same. Feel free to use my e-mail. although please modify it slightly.

This is horrible. That person is the scum of the universe. This guy is a sick and shallow individual. Making money off of other people's hard work is just wrong.

there is a member with the exact same username
http://forum.xda-developers.com/member.php?u=693931

Instead of saying its OEM... why not tell eBay its 'warez'. They take that much more seriously...

hm, not a bad idea, I think I'm gonna grab all the ROMs on XDA and start selling them on ebay to ****@$$ for $$$$$.

dfellars77 said:
Instead of saying its OEM... why not tell eBay its 'warez'. They take that much more seriously...
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Becuase technically I don't believe it is "WAREZ" it is not software that can be obtained through retail channels. No where can you go out and "buy" a ROM. In addiiton, the user doesn't claim he is selling a special hacked ROM, he claims he is selling the official HTC one.

shazaani said:
This is horrible. That person is the scum of the universe. This guy is a sick and shallow individual. Making money off of other people's hard work is just wrong.
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Oh yeah, because Dutty hasn't made a dime from all these ROMs.
I mean, I never got the idea he wrote them from scratch either.
The point being that generally ALL of the chefs here take someone else's work (HTC, OEM, et cetera), and do whatever they want with it, regardless of what that original entity wants or thinks.
This guy is doing the exact same thing whether you happen to like it or not.

rush242 said:
Oh yeah, because Dutty hasn't made a dime from all these ROMs.
I mean, I never got the idea he wrote them from scratch either.
The point being that generally ALL of the chefs here take someone else's work (HTC, OEM, et cetera), and do whatever they want with it, regardless of what that original entity wants or thinks.
This guy is doing the exact same thing whether you happen to like it or not.
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Click to collapse
He's not. Because Dutty provides it for free and allows people to make a contribution. He takes the work and improves it with his own hard, he's not charging you for someone elses work, or even for his own work.
This guy on ebay is getting paid by saying it's his work when it's clearly clearly not.

rush242 said:
Oh yeah, because Dutty hasn't made a dime from all these ROMs.
I mean, I never got the idea he wrote them from scratch either.
The point being that generally ALL of the chefs here take someone else's work (HTC, OEM, et cetera), and do whatever they want with it, regardless of what that original entity wants or thinks.
This guy is doing the exact same thing whether you happen to like it or not.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
First off...Dutty doesn't SELL his ROM or REQUIRE payment. He accepts donations, that's all. Same with all the other chef's
Secondly, this guy isn't doing the exact same thing...he is not cooking his own ROM and selling it. He is selling DUTTY's ROM...the pictures and descriptions are identical.
In addition, even Dutty selling his cooked ROM would be illegal both by HTC's standards and by eBay's because it is copyright infringement since, as you correctly stated, these aren't being written from scratch, or rather written at all. They are just conglomerations of other's files (90% HTC, 10% 3rd party apps, many of which are "free").

Septastrum said:
He's not. Because Dutty provides it for free and allows people to make a contribution. He takes the work and improves it with his own hard, he's not charging you for someone elses work, or even for his own work.
This guy on ebay is getting paid by saying it's his work when it's clearly clearly not.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You missed the point: The point being that generally ALL of the chefs here take someone else's work (HTC, OEM, et cetera), and do whatever they want with it, regardless of what that original entity wants or thinks. The original manufacturers don't want Dutty, et al, doing it REGARDLESS of whether it's a tip or a donation or not.
It would likely bother you regardless of whether he claimed it as his work or not. Besides, I didn't see that he claimed that it was his work in that eBay listing.

http://forum.xda-developers.com/member.php?u=693931
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&Item=290229506456&Category=38331&_trksid=p3907.m29
same guy
IP BANNNNN

Originally Posted by rush242
It would likely bother you regardless of whether he claimed it as his work or not. Besides, I didn't see that he claimed that it was his work in that eBay listing.
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http://cgi.ebay.com/WM6-UPGRADE-T-MOBILE-MDA-HTC-WIZARD-WINDOWS-MOBILE-6_W0QQitemZ290229506911QQihZ019QQcategoryZ38331QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
here you go

bengalih said:
First off...Dutty doesn't SELL his ROM or REQUIRE payment. He accepts donations, that's all. Same with all the other chef's
Secondly, this guy isn't doing the exact same thing...he is not cooking his own ROM and selling it. He is selling DUTTY's ROM...the pictures and descriptions are identical.
In addition, even Dutty selling his cooked ROM would be illegal both by HTC's standards and by eBay's because it is copyright infringement since, as you correctly stated, these aren't being written from scratch, or rather written at all. They are just conglomerations of other's files (90% HTC, 10% 3rd party apps, many of which are "free").
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Again: The point being that generally ALL of the chefs here take someone else's work (HTC, OEM, et cetera), and do whatever they want with it, regardless of what that original entity wants or thinks.
This guy is selling what Dutty gave away for free. As was discussed earlier in Olipof's thread, it doesn't matter whether that is a book, a can of redbull, or a modified ROM. Once you've let it out of your control, what others do with it is their own business--no matter what you happen to think about it.

azn_flip said:
http://cgi.ebay.com/WM6-UPGRADE-T-MOBILE-MDA-HTC-WIZARD-WINDOWS-MOBILE-6_W0QQitemZ290229506911QQihZ019QQcategoryZ38331QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
here you go
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That is a different listing that states: "i worked really hard to provide this to you...." which is ambiguous at best. He may have worked really hard to provide it to someone. He does not claim that he wrote it.
Which, of course, could be construed as being misleading. But that really isn't the point. These listings would bother a lot of you REGARDLESS of what he says or doesn't say.

Least We All Be Hippocrates
rush242 said:
Oh yeah, because Dutty hasn't made a dime from all these ROMs.
I mean, I never got the idea he wrote them from scratch either.
The point being that generally ALL of the chefs here take someone else's work (HTC, OEM, et cetera), and do whatever they want with it, regardless of what that original entity wants or thinks.
This guy is doing the exact same thing whether you happen to like it or not.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No doubt, and it won't stop us from sending donations to those who whip together the ROMS we all love.
Anybody hacking together code found on the web knows that he isn't in a ownership position, he is just having fun and can't expect to have any ownership over MS or HTC or 3rd party aps because he played DJ and mixed them together.
I make donations based on the labor cooks put in researching, mixing, testing and sharing and that will not change because someone is willing to help the Luddites finally get that god-awful factory ROM off their freaking phone.
I have mad respect for Dutty and and at the rate he pumps out ROMS I don't think that it is any sweat off his back that someone is using one of his zillion old ROMs to help people have better cellular experiences.
My recommendation is that we do what HTC and MS are kind enough to do with us (and that auction on ebay) IGNORE IT!
Stop Snitching!
If you guys really wanna play police and go stop people from doing what you do then I really ask you to stop a minute and think about what it would be like if this was all shut down because MS and HTC had someone writing letters complaining that we are ignoring their REALLY ENFORCEABLE copyright.
As the old saying goes: "May he without sin cast the first stone."

I'm not sure of the legality of selling Microsoft software (that was customized). It is like selling Vista for $5 and saying: "I changed the theme for you and it was very hard to do", but it is even worse because the theme was changed by someone else.
XDA should find someone savvy to research common licenses and burn in warnings to people at first startup saying that if they paid for it, they got hosed.
edit: Good point, but it is still very different. Microsoft is not going to waste resources to stop XDA from doing something harmless and then asking for donations. We are pointing out the fact that he is demanding payment.

Why hasnt Microsoft done anything about this site yet?

i mean, everything on this site is pretty much microsoft, which should create some copyright issues.

they are just happy to find a place where winmo doesn't get bashed constantly

duude said:
i mean, everything on this site is pretty much microsoft, which should create some copyright issues.
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LOL, your first post and you have a pop at this site?
You dont work for MS do you

GREAT first post.
anyway.
They tolerate it because we don't personally host anything and yes, we do make windows mobile better.

Also, this site actively opposes software theft, (warez and others like it,) which is the bulk of any copyright problems. It spreads goodwill towards Microsoft, believe it or not; if users have problems with standard Microsoft software, they don't have to just sit there and be unhappy, it can be tweaked. By doing so, people are happier with their Microsoft-driven equipment, and more likely to keep using it than changing to something else. There are countless people on this site who would tell you that without this site, they might not be using a Windows-driven phone.
It is also free tech-support for Microsoft, which saves them loads of money.

LOL duude...are u an attorney or do u own an iphone?

m$ knows better to keep this site alive. its their faults we are tweakin up and makin it better. beside...you never know...this draws a lot and i mean a lot of ppl towards m$. so i m pretty much sure the revenue keeps em' happy

yesod7 said:
There are countless people on this site who would tell you that without this site, they might not be using a Windows-driven phone
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One here!!!

microsoft never sold wm to any end user
and this site never taken part in porting wm to a device that dident came with it
more because of the close to impossibility of doing so
so as ms still get their licensense from the manufactors
and better rep with users who can get more out of their devices then just
depending on what the manfucators give before they forget about older devices
and move on to their new stuff
more wm phone owners keep getting new wm devices rather then moving to iphones or symbian devices so
it helps ms out alot in their quest of getting a larger % of the market

Plus, along with the free tech ehlp, the improving of current phones, we all know new htc phones will be tweaked cooked and stuff, so buy another phone. so XDA not only saves tehm money, but actually gains them money

It's because of this site that I'm looking at the Windows Mobile platform for my next phone rather than traditional Nokia, Sony Ericsson (other than x1), or even the iPhone..... actually come to think of it, without the exisitence of this site EVER, I would get an iPhone 3G right away.

you will see that in the coming future microsoft will be incorporating programs and devs that were created through this site to their platform. There was once a time when microsoft tried to shut it down when they realised that the site actually brings more people to microsoft and keeps them there.

LOL! I was going to post something else, but I'm pretty sure everybody has already said it, or thinks it! To much good comes from this site! Think about it, how many users of this site are now WM users for good and will always be sold on the next best WM platform because of this site.

yesod7 said:
Also, this site actively opposes software theft, (warez and others like it,) which is the bulk of any copyright problems. It spreads goodwill towards Microsoft, believe it or not; if users have problems with standard Microsoft software, they don't have to just sit there and be unhappy, it can be tweaked. By doing so, people are happier with their Microsoft-driven equipment, and more likely to keep using it than changing to something else. There are countless people on this site who would tell you that without this site, they might not be using a Windows-driven phone.
It is also free tech-support for Microsoft, which saves them loads of money.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yup, that's it.

TheChampJT said:
LOL! I was going to post something else, but I'm pretty sure everybody has already said it, or thinks it! To much good comes from this site! Think about it, how many users of this site are now WM users for good and will always be sold on the next best WM platform because of this site.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Amen to that!

Why haven't they done anything?
because nobody there is smoking crack
Would you close down a site that gets people talking about your products ? that is full of people writing programs that enhances the usability of your products? that's a great place to see some ideas you might steal for later versions of your OS.
This is free R&D!

duude said:
i mean, everything on this site is pretty much microsoft, which should create some copyright issues.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Alas, I saw this differently with others. I think the question is very out of topic since this is an All-HTC-Devices forum, not an M$ WM forum. It's only 'coincidence' that after these years, HTC always used WM as their OS.
If HTC decided in the future that they will build their own OS, or maybe use Android, then it may trigger M$ to reconsider its stance against this forum. Especially, when we -as always- try to improve our experience with the devices, do it by porting some parts (drivers/softwares) from WM to other OS, or vice versa. Then the issue may be valid.
Btw, I don't know but do you all think it's safe -legally and/or morally- to port other vendor/ODM's part (drivers/softwares/etc) into our HTC devices? I ask this because I saw many attempts already...

I don't know the exact number of people on this site, but I do know that there are a whole lot of people on this site. My point for that last sectence is "would you destroy a site that has FREE workers helping your company out to better there products and gain more money"
Yes, we might receive applications before they are release, but honestly where do you really think we receive those from uuuummmm?
So again, if I was a big company I would never touch this site because I will pass my software to this site let eveyone play with it and then I would know where all the bugs are at. So then I will fix it and then sale it.
There might be alot of poeple on this site but I think MS has a lot more customers that don't even know that this site is even alive.
There you go my 2 cents.

gsessons said:
I don't know the exact number of people on this site, but I do know that there are a whole lot of people on this site. My point for that last sectence is "would you destroy a site that has FREE workers helping your company out to better there products and gain more money"
Yes, we might receive applications before they are release, but honestly where do you really think we receive those from uuuummmm?
So again, if I was a big company I would never touch this site because I will pass my software to this site let eveyone play with it and then I would know where all the bugs are at. So then I will fix it and then sale it.
There might be alot of poeple on this site but I think MS has a lot more customers that don't even know that this site is even alive.
There you go my 2 cents.
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and if the truth be known, they (M$) are happy that the masses dont know., in truth, the people on this site contain more knowledge and expertise than all of m$ combined as far as HTC handsets are concerned and how to tweak and tune the software to ACTUALLY work. it could be perceived as (truth) the Big companies are just mass clearing houses of useless data they can sell for a profit. how many of us came here for the first time only looking for useable software programs? how many of us came here for the first time trying to find a solution to an OEM problem?
M$ has found a truly unique forum in the world of r&d., although probably more out of frustration than than anything else, the majority of talented people here could teach this stuff to most of the employees at m$ about these devices and how they work and why.
I would be very surprised if they didnt have a staff of several people working there monitoring and testing to roms and software packages developed or tweaked through this site. they would have to be unbelieveably arrogant to think this is a bad thing for business, and we all know who one of the richest men and companies in the world is dont we. he didnt just fall off the truck so to speak, he understands..............economics!

With all of that in mind can anyone understand why pocket development is not possible on Visual studio express editions (free).
Isn't that a shoot on the foot? I think so.
I think that a platform with a lot of developers is much more appeling, and then seel more. Only a opinion from someone that will never buy a iphone.

[SUGGESTION] Setting a Bounty on the bootloader.

As most of you would know, we have learned quite a bit about Defy bootloader during the last week.
We always thought that Motorola don't have a method to unlock production defys (defys shipped to end users). Well we have sufficient information now to prove that Motorola have a method, and that it converts production defys to engineering defys (Phones used by Motorola engineers to make ROMs and other stuff)
This is actually better than a simple unlocked boot-loader because eng defys have unlimited applications (because we have direct access to MOBO/CPU) like overclocking gpu, installing other OS like Ubuntu, Debian, WP7 etc. into NAND and a lot more.
So the problem here is that the tools required for ENG switch is only available to Motorola employees. Till now we have no further information on it. The tools are TI OMAP BOARD CONFIGURATION TOOL and a 16MB .bin file. Other significance of this method is that it might also unlock other phones with OMAP(3xxx/xxxx?) board. Also this method seems to be very stable.
So the good news is that this software is available for most Motorola repair centers. That means it would be easier to get a leak. Of course the highly paid Motorola engineers with 6digit paycheck wont leak it but we should consider low level repair executives (they already leak sbfs and RSDlite).
So my suggestion is we start a bounty thread in XDA to tempt them.
If you have a solution and if you are concerned about anonymity, please PM me.
PS : There are lots of bounty threads in xda.

Hi,
Setting a Bounty would be cool, but is legal ?
Cause it is not like "I pay you a lot of money if you steal this software for me"

the|gamer said:
Hi,
Setting a Bounty would be cool, but is legal ?
Cause it is not like "I pay you a lot of money if you steal this software for me"
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hmm. It depend's on which country you are from.

I'm quite on it. Minimum/maximum fee could be set (like US$2 min and 20 bucks max, or anything like this). And someone with access to Motorola's employees (I think the user racca works on a Moto distributor, but I'm not sure of it, I think he mentioned it in some thread a few months ago) could rush and "bribe" them. If people could be a bit more clear about which kind of employees should have access to this software, I could try and convince one of them (you know, people here in Brazil aren't that much into honesty, but are a lot into money) about heading us a leak from TI's software. I'll have to take my phone to MOTOAssist soon ("menu" and "back" keys' backlights are weaker than normal), so I'd have at least an actual reason to talk to an assist technician (assuming they have access to the board configuration tool).
Yet, since I'm no hacker (yet, I'm planning on getting a Nook Color - which community here in XDA seems to provide all you need to start your own ROM - and starting messing around with it) nor coder (know only a little about C programming), I would not try and mess around with TI's software, but only upload it somewhere and give you guys a link for it.

K3n bH1mur4 said:
I'm quite on it. Minimum/maximum fee could be set (like US$2 min and 20 bucks max, or anything like this).
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We could even promote it with ads. The best way would be to set up our on website, maybe in Brazil(or with some webhost who would like to host this) where you could bribe your way out and then promote it with ads. There is a remote chance that XDA might not approve a bounty thread here (of illegal implications), but we could publish the website here and all other major forums (chinese forums as well).

royale1223 said:
We could even promote it with ads. The best way would be to set up our on website, maybe in Brazil(or with some webhost who would like to host this) where you could bribe your way out and then promote it with ads. There is a remote chance that XDA might not approve a bounty thread here (of illegal implications), but we could publish the website here and all other major forums (chinese forums as well).
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Dunno, since it's illegal, it may not be the best option to promote it. Obviously, it's still not immoral, but we all know that morality and law often do not converge, so it may be better to go rogue, talking in private with motoassist technicians and stuff like that, because, even if we're just fighting for our rights, we're still using non-legal ways, and risking to be sued for it.

I don't think promoting a website is illegal. What's illegal is hosting an illegal one.

Promoting a website who promises cash for employees of a corporation who leak internal software used by that corp. might be considered illegal in most places. Fortunately (or not, I'll explain why), we have jurisprudence to embase of: in september 1st, last year, a judge here in Brazil condemned Moto to update a customer's Dext/CLIQ to Android 2.1 (Moto did not provide this update here in Brazil, even though it did in many countries) without voiding the warranty.
I know it's just one case, in just one country, and updating an android version is way different than providing unlocked bootloaders (or the tools for users to do so). And, yes, I agree with placing a bounty at the tool. Yet, if we get caught, Moto can still argue that we had other ways to pursue our rights, and we should have used the justice system to do so, if we believed we were that right. Yet, they're a multimillion-worthy company (even bigger after being purchased by Google), and we're a bunch of broke users, at most devs making a couple thousand dollars, and would have little chance against their lawyers. Last, but not least, employers who help us may get caught and fired because of us, and I sincerely want nobody (ok, maybe a few of the highest executives) to get fired just for me to get an unlocked BL.
So, my point is: let's make this a stealth action. Get a reason for your phone to be taken to Motoassist (no intentional bricking, please! You must flash an official SBF before taking it there! - at least if your phone is still under warranty), get to talk with one of their technicians, and mention - indifferently - that some guys are giving alway big money for any Moto employee who leaks that TI OMAP software. Something like this: "hey, did you hear that crazy devs at this dev forum are paying the first moto technician to hand them some sort of software? Something OMAP-related, I don't know for sure. All I know is that the reward is some nice cash."
When the word spread, we could have an unlocked bootloader within a month.
Yet, we got a single issue to deal: how to ensure the person who gives us the SW first will actually receive the cash? I've seen a few bounties here before, but them all were settled by XDA devs (so the bounty keeper could just donate the sum to that dev), never saw something like paying "outsiders".

One of my friends (Defy+ user) has a contact with a Motorola service guy. He says that that guy knows everything about Motorola software and he's with us because he himself uses custom ROMs and controls an entire service center. He's ready to take my device under warranty though it's rooted along every single hack/MOD for Defy installed
Will try contacting him
And let's post this in the forums of all other locked Motorola devices with OMAP 3xxx chips.
Sent from my MB525 using XDA App

swapnil360 said:
One of my friends (Defy+ user) has a contact with a Motorola service guy. He says that that guy knows everything about Motorola software and he's with us because he himself uses custom ROMs and controls an entire service center. He's ready to take my device under warranty though it's rooted along every single hack/MOD for Defy installed
Will try contacting him
And let's post this in the forums of all other locked Motorola devices with OMAP 3xxx chips.
Sent from my MB525 using XDA App
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Talk with this guy. If he has access to a copy of TI's SW, and handle it to us, I'm pretty sure we could him get a nice reward. Not as high as if putting a bounty, but definitely enough to make the effort worth it.
I mean, supposing that this is actually gonna help unlock EVERY OMAP 3 (and possibly all OMAP-based phones) out there, and that this way the process is reversible (at least to me, it looks like no eFuse is being blown there, you know, assistance technicians can't just blow eFuses like that - taking the phone to the assistance under warranty shouldn't void it, and that's what a blown eFuse would do), loads of people would help. Imagine a single dollar from every OMAP 3 XDA user (take a look here for an INCOMPLETE list of OMAP 3 devices with ~30 ANDROID ONLY phones/tablets), that would make a lot of money.

this is good....and i think it will be best to not mention the location,identities,or any hint of similarities of the perosn source once you guys get contacts & manifests from that guy(source). so as not to compromise his profession.
he could be fired & worse can be sued by leaking private details.
best discuss it in private,after getting in touch w/ him...
just a tought of CAUTION...

hailmary said:
this is good....and i think it will be best to not mention the location,identities,or any hint of similarities of the perosn source once you guys get contacts & manifests from that guy(source). so as not to compromise his profession.
he could be fired & worse can be sued by leaking private details.
best discuss it in private,after getting in touch w/ him...
just a tought of CAUTION...
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Yeah we would ensure him that.

I'll help u out....juzz tell me what to get from moto officials

hemil said:
I'll help u out....juzz tell me what to get from moto officials
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do u know motorola mobility service center in mbai?
we only hav private shops with motos certificate...
i dont think they can help...
all they say is we'll send it to factory(?)
Sent from my MB525 using xda premium

@hemil Please pm me.

hemil said:
I'll help u out....juzz tell me what to get from moto officials
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Hey buddy... just wait for my call today...
Sent from my MB525 using XDA App

Putting up an ads offering money for violation the law may be a bit problematic. No website will be excited to host it. Another issue is that in the end someone will have to actually post it, someone in particular. And that one person will be in danger of being a subject of interest of various law enforcement agencies. You know, at the end of the day they always want someone to put the responsibility on, the culprit, a scapegoat. So you make heat and you put some particular person into it even before there is any result.
I would prefer to focus more on personal face to face private communications with the service guys. It's harder to prove and if something goes wrong (the guy records it etc.) our guy can always say he was just kidding, bullshitting, bigmouthing.
Anyway, if you are thinking about this seriously, here are few remarks.
don't offer the particular sum, it's not tactical; not even here should be mentioned any particular number; instead, let the service guy ask his price
if the first contact with a potential source is established, ask first for a proof; specify what the proof is supposed to be (a screenshot? a video recording of the software in action?)
figure out a way how to actually collect the money; people are willing to donate but they will not donate to anyone, only to someone trustworthy (but Epsylon will surely want to have nothing to do with everything even remotely questionable, let alone illegal); the "collector" will be under the lights, he may get attention of people we don't want to deal with
who actually will be allowed to donate? anyone? how to avoid an agent to donate and then simply track where the money is going?
figure out a way how to actually make a safe and smooth deal (money <-> software); will it be in person or electronically? how to verify we are given what we paid for? classical problem: no one of both parties is willing to make his move first, but we can't give away the money for a software we would start verifying not until the money is gone
figure out how to avoid being robbed (fake offers from people who would want to grab the money and run away) as well as being caught (fake offers from the dummy guy - LE agent); in both cases the correct proof might be given, though, but the intentions are wrong
For the particular mechanics of the exchange in person, one of numerous possible ways may go like this:
our guy comes with an intentionally bricked Defy repairable only with the software in question together with the ordinary USB cable (or without, if special USB cable is needed; in that case the cable must be part of the deal), and with an empty flash drive recognizable at the first sight; no money on him
our guy passes the flash drive and the Defy (and the USB cable, if no special cable is needed) to the "source" and watches closely
the source copies the software onto the flash drive, runs the software from the flash drive, connects the Defy via the cable provided and actually unbricks the phone (this must be more elaborated on; what if the software uses some libraries from the windows directories etc. which are not copied onto the flash drive? he may or may not have the installer, but just copying the installer isn't enough, he would have to copy the installer on the flash drive, then run the installer from it and install it back onto the flash drive and run it from there)
our guy gets the phone (and the cable) back, the source unplugs the flash drive and keeps it for now, our guy watches the flash drive is not connected to anything from now on
now the software is copied onto the flash drive and verified it's working, thus ordinary hand-to-hand exchange may proceed; our guy didn't bring the money to avoid being robbed, they both now may go grab the money or our guy may call his buddy with the money etc. (also needs to be heavily elaborated on)
Sensitive parts must be detailed in-depth, I am just indicating the outline, one of many possible. Still it's very far from perfect.
As you can see it's not that easy and there are many potential points of failure so this action may never really come to the practical realization.
What about a little bit different or alternative ways? Are there any? It would be useful to ask Epsylon what he would actually wish for the most - had he been able to wish for anything.

isn't it illegal to post copyrighted stuff and also its against forum rules..
i mean that if someone gets his hand on that super tool, then how can he shares it with us???

rishi2100 said:
isn't it illegal to post copyrighted stuff and also its against forum rules..
i mean that if someone gets his hand on that super tool, then how can he shares it with us???
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huh !! think about moto when they actually ditch us with promises ? whats wrong if what we are screaming for last 1 year . and didnt get any updates ? huh think about tht before u speak about illegal stuffs . if moto is doing all sought of ways to keep us away from our rights . what we do undercover to get us right can no way be questioned when we have told thousands of times that we need updates .
more over the authority can question us only and only when they are themselves self guilt free .... but instead they are pretending to be saint sitting behind the curtains and doing all sought of locking stuff to deprive us of our rights

@jhonsmithx Let's not get ahead of ourselves. First of all lets concentrate on getting the source. Also I urge users to use a bit of social engineering to do that(using fb/g ). We'll put together a plan according to the situation after that. Also note that this is a pretty long shot. We might not get a source after all.
rishi2100 said:
isn't it illegal to post copyrighted stuff and also its against forum rules..
i mean that if someone gets his hand on that super tool, then how can he shares it with us???
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I could think of atleast 10 ways to share anonymously. Though I wont be posting them here.