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Live chat with Microsoft brings more pain to Magician users

Mike Calligaro_MSFT (Expert):
Q: The i-mate JAM/HTC Magician community is abuzz with a possible build of WM5 for them. While I understand it's not up to Microsoft, can you at least confirm the existence of WM5 running on that device? It's rumored impossible due to 64MB ROM limitation.
A: We can NOT confirm the existance of a WM5 build for that device. However, I can say that 64M ROM meets the requirements for WM5. The device is likely CAPABLE of being upgraded. But the majority of devices are not upgraded, so you shouldn't expect it will happen.
Some of our other questions answered here:
http://www.howardforums.com/showthread.php?t=715582

So that kills the lie that device manufacturers and operatiors have been spreading that 64Mb is not sufficient to run WM5. This is no surprise but just emphasises the point that these companies have NO interest in their customers and only want to get as much as they can out of us while ignoring our concerns or issues. Well done HTC and co.

I too have a S100 and I too want to have WM5.0.
But, remember, they are a company. They are supposed to earn money. Do you work for free? They surelly don't.
You get what you pay for, a phone with WM2003SE, just like when you buy a laptop it will came with WindowsXP and they will not give you windows vista for free.
And you must also take in account that porting drivers to WM5.0 is time/man power consuming. It is better for them to make a new product and stick WM5 to it. If you want WM5 you buy the new model.
Of course, if they have a new magician with WM5.0, I think they could upgrade the older ones, because they would nnot have a cost associated with R&D just for older models. But even in that situation, I suppose Microsoft cashs a license for every copy of WM5 shipped on a phone, so, HTC would have to pay Microsoft for every copy of upgraded WM5.0 they gave.
WM5.0 just for us, well... forget about it. It would require driver development and testing. And they then need to support two operating systems, because people would start to ***** if their device fails with WM5.
HTC would be a great company if they provide us WM5. If they don't, well, I don't think they don't care about customers. They are just a normal company, not an outstanding one. That's all.
PS: i'm not related with HTC in any way. this is just my way of understanding corporate business.

I don't know what the fuss is all about but what so good about this Magneto? I mean everyone is feeling they've lost out but I think the 2003SE version works great. Making the most of what we have through self hacking and innovation is what this forum stands for... this is what made this forum so great...

WM2003SE IS a great OS. Just like Windows 98SE (except the occasional crashes). But we still have moved on to the newer technology of XP, right? With each new step up in OS, new possibilities are unveiled. Either you run the latest OS and get the option to run the latest programs taking advantage of that, or you don't. It's as simple as that.
I don't think anyone expects HTC to make WM5 run on the Magician, and then give it to us for free. They are here to make money. We all know that, considering how much most of us paid for the Magician. But why is the only option to buy new HARDWARE? If your P4 runs Windows XP just fine, will you find it ok to have to buy a new PC, just to be able to run Vista? Of course not.
We need more companies to take care of their current users base, by providing OS upgrades that you pay for! I don't know how much developement is needed to make all the drivers and so on, but personally I would be happy to pay $100 for WM5, since the hardware part of the Magician suits me quite nice for the moment. Then, in 6-12 months or so, when a fast, small qwerty equipped VGA PDA with built in wifi and GPS is made available, I will replace my device. But that is because I want better HARDware, not better SOFTware. Huge difference!

efjay said:
So that kills the lie that device manufacturers and operatiors have been spreading that 64Mb is not sufficient to run WM5.
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It is not necessarily a lie.
I remember when we upgraded the IPAQ 3800 to the WM2003 back then which was supposed to "need" more ROM than the IPAQs had.
Some WM components like Media Player or Terminal Services Client were not in the ROM, but on the CD as installable programs, so only the core OS was in ROM.
I figure that this is the case here too.
The WM5 core OS+apps might be installable in 64MB (some apps probably to install afterwards), but the complete feature set of WM5 might need 128MB.
HP will offer upgrades to WM5 for the IPAQ hx2000 series which has 64MB ROM and later for the hx4700 which already has 128MB.
So it was clear to me that 64MB ROM is not the reason for NOT upgrading a device.
The use of components that will get no WM5 driver might be a reason, for instance old Bluetooth or video chips or memory controller or whatever.....but the Magician is not old enough to have such "outdated" components I guess...
So this leads to the simple realization that HTC will not provide a Magician upgrade simply for marketing reasons - they want to sell their Wizard and Universal now....
And if the manifacturer does not support WM5, I doubt that OEMs like T-Mobile, O2, Vodafone, or even QTek will bother.
After all they want to sell the same new HTC devices....

I happen to work in a similar field.
This is probably a case of 98% marketing decision with 2% technical reasoning.
As you might recall - companies are alive to make their shareholders happy - and one of the greatest and most proven ways of getting your shareholders smiling is to sell a lot and make a huge profit. There is of course more to it like ... public brand awareness, customer satisfaction, environmental and social responsibility and other BS but... making huge profits that either flow to the SH as dividends or raises the price of the stock in the case of a publicly traded company is the 100% proven way to make the guys happy.
Now... guess how you make a big profit? you sell many many devices ... and this you achieve by diversifying your product line. This is really tough in a comodity market (cellphones are a comodity these days) - so you do your best and if WM5 is a big deal feature - why not make new devices that are marginally improved but one major improvement is WM5? I guess that's the force-majore behind most of these decisions. Nobody is trying to screw anybody - and I happen to have a Magician too so I too really want WM5 - but on the other hand such is life and such is the way that most businesses are operated. I guess we shouldn't expect too much.
Cheers, Lisa

I fully agree that providing an upgrade to WM5 is up to the manufacturers/operators. The point i was trying to make was the amount of rom on the Magician was given as an excuse as to why it would not be given an upgrade. With the reply from the Microsoft live chat and also the announcement by HP that they will be producing the rx1950/1955 which only have 64MB rom we know this to be untrue. HTC, Imate and other operators have every right to decide that it is uneconomical to produce an upgrade for their older devices, (even though HP and Dell obviously think otherwise and are offering upgrades on some of their devices); I just dont see why they didnt just say so instead of trying to fool people.
WM2003SE is an ok os but some of the improvements in WM5 such as persistent storage, better battery life, better bluetooth and supposedly a more stable OS are features that would be welcome on our devices. No one can deny the current devices have serious problems with bluetooth, stability and of course battery life. Improvements in these areas would be welcomed and if there is a charge for the upgrade that is acceptable; no one is saying that they should just give it away. I actually have a Blue Angel device and im sure BA owners could tell you of their problems with bluetooth and wifi. Im pretty happy with my device apart from the occasional lockup but i would welcome an upgrade to WM5 rather than having to cough up and buy a new device. The current crop of WM5 devices are pretty underwhelming for me - the Uni is too big and wont be easy to use one-handed; the Wizard uses miniSD. So I wouldnt be buying a new device now anyway. Im just tired of companies just placing profit above all else, thats all

Don't get me wrong efjay - I agree with you and I would be extremely happy if I can get my magician running wm5.
Anyway, it's now a waiting game and I guess we will find out if HTCs business model includes WM5 for the MA or the BA.
One more thing to consider is that these companies work on a project basis - which means that they allocate the best and the finest engineers for project X (i.e. - Blueangel or Magician) - once the project is over - then only a few engineers are left with the crap job of supporting the "older projects" and the best engineers are allocated to newer models - so if you take into consideration that HTC has let's say two current "new" models (universal, wizard) which I am pretty sure that by now the good engineers are no longer allocated for - instead they are probably allocated to the two next gen devices which must be in the pipeline if the company has the will to survive... so frankly thinking about it - the Blueangel and the Magician are "older generation" devices that are in a status of "they are working so don't touch..." - i.e. - no chance on earth that they plan to venture into anything major with these devices apart from necessary evil - like repairing super critical show stopping bugs or faults...
Sorry to paint such a dark picture - but this is corporate life. But... still one should always hope...

True as it may sound, I'm still happy how things are going for me ofcourse there will a hundred more things I' like. Sometimes I wish HTC were as organized as Palm. But then again...

lisa1982, thats a very interesting insight into corporate operations. I wont hold my breath but will welcome it if it does.

HBK said:
WM2003SE IS a great OS. Just like Windows 98SE (except the occasional crashes). But we still have moved on to the newer technology of XP, right?
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Yeah, but I bet youre not using the same PC you had in 1998.
Personally I'd rather have a device that comfortably runs WM2003SE than one that struggles to run WM2005.

MS could invest in XDA Developers!

I guess if M$ is being so cheeky by enforcing tight string on XDA-Developers site, then I suggest they buy it out for not less than 10M$ and invest in is so that it brings them cash in return on their investment!
This site has been a refuge for many of the pda users for not less than 5 years! It has helped many and many have even mastered the PDA tweaking and rom cooking for only and ONLY one reason (i.e. developing) the PDA technology.
If M$ has not learnt anything from this site and perhaps will never learn, then it is their own problem and they are shortsighted!!
I personally believe that XDA-Developers has helped the industry a lot and no one can deny this fact whereas others have just kept waiting and perhaps were left behind…
Com'n guys, it say "XDA-Developers" and it is only meant to develop and enhance by making our lives much easier not as M$, make it more miserable!!

few if any sane company would invest on something as free and "opensource" as this place
nobody here get paid and everybody could leave never to return
from an economic perspective it would be way risky

Rudegar said:
few if any sane company would invest on something as free and "opensource" as this place
nobody here get paid and everybody could leave never to return
from an economic perspective it would be way risky
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I tend to disagree, you would get a few people turn and leave if this place was affiliated with MS, but at the same time SOOOOOOO many people would stay and even get more active if all our efforts were recognised by them. Im in no doubt that ALOT of people from the operators and HTC are silent members (or even active members) in this forum. Opensource is not always a bad thing but its not as if we are actually changing the WM core system, we are adding to it and tweaking the hardware we have.
The actual investment in our devices is another reason, some of us have paid a HELL of alot for these devices and arent willing to sit back and wait for the next ROM to appear a year after we bought them! Im YET to see a genuine ROM update from HTC, yet over the phone the guy did tell me about Xda-devs and the recommended ROM to use!

Bizarre decision
I can only imagine they are under pressure from the device manufacturers : You;re not going to buy a new device as quickly if you can get the latest OS to run on your existing machine.
Unless they have plans to retail windows mobile operating system, in which case the roms here would impinge on those sales.
Otherwise, it makes little sense : communities help make the market for these devices and often show technology leadership : from Win95 to XP, look how many community innovations made it into the OS : media players, codecs, compression tools, IM, etc etc. None these innovations are born in Microsoft labs. They're born in the community.
More specifically though, their actions will cause all those people who are smart enough to double and triple their effort to get open source operating systems for the hardware, leaving them out of the picture all together.
Linux and the entire open source community was born, grown and raised because of actions just such as this and I said as much in my petition comments.
JJ

Allow open source or buzz off!
MS has been acting weird lately which I reckon they would go out of business if they continue though.
What they've decided to do will certainly lower their market acquisition and customer loyalty, dono man!!
I mean think for a minute, what if they MS tomorrow tills you to buy a new PC everytime there's a new OS?! Get new hardware everytime they release new platform! Would that be kind of an insane strategy?
I paid about 1K$ for my universal and feel itsn't enough, which I should get better support and even have full right to any update and upgrade too, don't you think so?
What MS wants us to do, everyone who has a PDA to replace it with a new one so that they generate more money out of us! Tough man. I know a friend who's fighting big time for Vista Enterprise version and you know what? He's getting nowhere!!
It's left up to you gentlemen...

why would ms invest when they are already reaping the benefits of the tweaks and fixes from a source that has people doing it for free.

i renember windows 3.0 it sure come along way
but think about it are we comparing pda/smartphones too much with pc's ?
how many palm and nokia owners ever get new firmware ?
why should one expect to get newer os's for a pda/smartphone at all if the one it came with dident have any bugs ?
it's a full solution we buy not hardware and then get the software we pref
like on pc's
not that i object to the oppotinity of upgrading a dusty old device with new software though

ms wont be getting anymore of my money,
You buy a pc with windows what everinstalled ,nothing but crashes and hassle
if you do get a virus or have to reset you loose word etc,and if you didnt get a reinstalled disc your screwed
as for pda's,totally unsupported they just hope by the time updates come youll buy a new device and live with teething problems
hand on heart if it wasnt for this site my exec wud be 10% of what it is now in terms of vaule to me ,useablility
IMHO the out of the box devices are total dog sht,
they dont live up to the hype ,its only thru tweaks,added software and places like this that make the devices
that being the case i wont get a windows device next time around,its either symbian or treo for me and ive already order a new computer and its a Mac
microsoft thanks for nothing.places like this site make there devices crediable and what they are,in return some openess or investment are due from microsoft
my bottom line is they bring out new op systems,but wont let us upgrade free or cheaply,but if the softwares .op sys,worked as they claim we wouldnt want to upgrade
sell me a half baked set up ,then relase somehting improved but make me pay all over again,nah for me enough is enough
micorsoft have the vast market place,but this has turned then arrogant and feel that they can do as they wish ,but to many people we have had far to much and there offerings arent worth the hassle
you can get customers but the market has grown wiser and the compation stronger,menawhile microsoft sit back and only think of money,play on nero
im off to get me a Mac

Is ROM cooking legal?

Just read another post where it was mentioned that technically the different ROM versions floating around on the site are illegal.
And WM6 for free? I'd say that's piracy. You do pay for at least to upgrade from Windows XP to Vista?
When you buy a new computer that comes with an OS, you can't assume that you are entitled for a free upgrade
to OS when ever one is released.
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Click to collapse
In some sense I can see that this might be true! after all, its well known that this site won't tolerate warez... but its fine for beta/non-beta ROMS to be cooked and made freely available to anyone with compatible devices...
Don't get me wrong... I'm all for it and envy all of our cooks - if I could understand how to do it I would!!! I'm just wondering what the true legalities are?
Please don't shoot me

lots of views on the matter here
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=294142&highlight=legal
"And WM6 for free? I'd say that's piracy. You do pay for at least to upgrade from Windows XP to Vista?"
this statement is not really true because ms sell vista and vista upgrades
nor ms or htc or any of the OEM's of the htc devices have ever sold upgrades ms stay out of it 100% htc (pre them selling themselfs) always just made basis roms and given them to the operators to customize and give users free

If it is being sold and we used it without buying, that's illegal, just like the computer situation.
In PPC situation, how can it be legal or illegal when it is not sold in the first place?

"True" legalities are simple: M$ has copyright on this material so though I am not a legal expert of any kind I am sure they will have no trouble proving in court that even simple redistribution of ROMs without any alteration by a non authorized party such as this site is illegal.
Then again, since neither M$ nor the OEMs (not jut HTC) don't bother with updates unless a given device is really unstable so they need to fix some bugs and you can never by a newer OS even if your device supports it I thinks this is basically "fare use".
After all it is a dirty commercial trick to force people to by new hardware at ridiculous prices just to keep the software up to date.

CWKJ said:
In PPC situation, how can it be legal or illegal when it is not sold in the first place?
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Violating patents is illegal,while they are not sold. Violating GPL is illegal, while the product covered by GPL is free. So "not sold" means nothing.
You might know that in modern world nobody sells software itself. They sell or give away licenses on its use. When you buy such a software, it is written on the envelope: "By opening blah-blah-blah" and you accept the license this way. It is not a case with my TyTN! I didn't have to accept a license before starting to use the software. Same with firmware of several devices on the market.
If there are no any contractual relationships between me and the owner of the rights on this software, I violate nothing by using it on a way of my choice.
Well, stolen betas is of different kind: the person who first started to distributed it violated NDA or something like. It is known. So I can't disagree it's illegal.
When you download a firmware update from the vendor, you amy have to accept a license. If you have done, then cooking from it may be illegal.
But I see nothing illegal when no an agreement was accepted.

I think the answer is not quite as simple. Is it legal? Well, technically it is not.
A lot of copyright law could and would defend this point.
However in this world of ours, not everything is about the law. Especially when money is involved.
Having MS and HTC simply say that if you want to taste WM6 that you have to buy a new gadget is not illegal. In fact as the owners and the licenser this is completely their right to do. Sh!tty? Sure! But why not? It is their right, and for us to use WM6 because we don't want to pay does NOT make it right.
The fact of the matter is the number of users who will be upgrading to WM6 through cooked ROMs is rather small and honestly not worth their trouble.
They know most people will buy the software legally. They know that most of their serious buyers will be corporations who will buy it legally. AND ultimately, they WANT people to work and spread their software as much as possible.
Sure they are loosing money doing that --very little in the large scheme of things-- but ultimately, they win because they (US) spread knowledge and we create future customers. Since eventually most of us will upgrade hardware and if when we do, we will most likely stick with WM rather than lets say go to Nokia's Symbian.
They are not stupid and this is why they have not tried to shut down XDA Developers outright for even hosting ROM cookers who are obviously working on leaked versions of their software.

the only skin of htc and ms's nose is that people may not replace their phones as fast
but then same would be true for pc's if they too were made not to have os upgraded
operators like orange and tmobile and the likes could not care less
sim unlocking a phone harm them much much more since that imply that you will stop using the service that they make money on

An interesting historical fact: back when home computer was a new concept and Apple and IBM just began their competition Apple made a tactical mistake: They prevented others from duplicating the BIOS of their machines (I don't remember if this was a legal or technical issue, it's been a while since I saw the documentary). They still do it afaik.
The result: "IBM compatible" clones popped up all over the place at a much cheaper prices then the original (in fact who owns "real" IBM today anyway?) which caused the PC architecture to spread and made MACs an endangered species.
It is the same with (desktop) windows: because there are so many cracked versions floating around ever since 3.11 (maybe even before) it gained so much popularity it became almost standard.
So basically M$ owns their success to piracy. After all some people will not by their crap - if they can't get it for free they will use something else, while the major customers (namely corporations, public facilities etc.) would still purchase it legally even if there were no protection measures.
P.S.
agovinoveritas: if you check the 'About' icon in your control panel you will find a nice fat copyright statement. And as copyrights are something you agree to automatically by using a software product (no need to sing / click or even have a warning on the box) MS still has a way of telling you what you can and can not do with the ROM of your device.

MS don't even need that copyright statement. Copyright isn't something that needs to be asserted, it exists regardless.

levenum said:
agovinoveritas: if you check the 'About' icon in your control panel you will find a nice fat copyright statement. And as copyrights are something you agree to automatically by using a software product (no need to sing / click or even have a warning on the box) MS still has a way of telling you what you can and can not do with the ROM of your device.
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Click to collapse
Yes, old news. Everybody who is a tech-head in here knows this. But how is that relevant to my statements?
For those savvy people, you know that by the mere fact that you created something, technically you are protected by intellectual copyright law.
However we are drifting from the main point.

Is this legal?

I know that you guys are getting flack from Microsoft, and I don't mind using something that they don't like. I don't mind voiding my Warranty either. (After all, I had to replace my HTC wizard's screen myself!) But is it legal to use a WM6 rom? I don't use pirated software, so I would avoid any Roms that have any, and I do like WM6.
But I'll ask it like this: Is installing WM6 like installing a pirated copy of XP on my PC? Or is it like modding Windows XP to do things similar to Vista?

Installing WM6 on a WM5 phone is the equivalent of installing XP on a machine that had windows 98 installed on it.

Yes, but in your example, was it a pirated version?
The reason I say this is because I've heard that the copy of WM6 that was first found was leaked from Microsoft. So then is it something that is legal?

Its a grey area. From my understanding, Microsoft released WM6 and gave phone manufacturers free upgrades to offer to customers. HTC intended to release them, but the carriers (AT&T and T-Mobile) chose not to so that they can push new phones on people who don't need them just so they can get WM6 (i.e. T-Mobile's Wing, which has the same power, features, etc as the Wizard, just a little thinner, a retarded blue color, and with WM6).
So I guess you can say, since WM6 isn't for sale, you didn't necessarily steal it, so its not illegal. Microsoft's main issue is the fact that cookers on this forum have taken WM6 and modified it to their liking, which they consider copyright infringement.

from my understanding, everyone paid already for it
Wares was sold, another are waiting to BE sold etc...
Grey area is what is working for they bills imo.
imagine whole process...since computer became home thing.
Are they poorer or richer now..?
Do we have to feel like sinners?
(i am not lawyer, you know..)
Then give me linux noW. For my Wizard.

Thanks for clearing that up! Now I don't feel bad about using it.

At Tech Ed, I cornered Microsoft's Pocket PC guy, and asked him the same thing. He also explained it for the same reasons up above.
He said Microsoft would have NO problem distributing the OS, except that they sign contracts with the carriers (T-Mobile, AT&T), and in those contracts, it says that they will give them the OS exclusively.
From a legal standpoint (I am not a lawyer), it seems like Microsoft has no problems distributing it, but if they did (or openly endorsed it), it would violate their contract with the carriers. Since I have no contract with the carriers, I have no problem using it.
Btwa -- The Microsoft guy also says that everyone here at xda-developers are bad-asses, and he reads the forum regularly.

swingheim said:
Btwa -- The Microsoft guy also says that everyone here at xda-developers are bad-asses, and he reads the forum regularly.
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meh meh, we all are here to learn

Beta testers
Yeah, I bet the watch the forum for tips and ideas, then claim the cred for it

Ford Motor Company is working with Microsoft to develop a "Sync" system for cars and trucks. Lets you connect your phone, ipod, usb drive etc. to the Cars entertainment center. They recently flashed a bunch of the vehicles at my shop, with the latest upgrades. I cmplained to the guy, about my Wizard not syncing. After the flash he came over and asked to try my phone. Not only did it work, it was capable of streaming to the the sync system. This was the first time they had it working in the field. The guy was so excited he made phne calls telling everyone about it!! He wanted to buy my Wizard!! I told him about how we make our own ROM's and stuff. And he asked me if I knew about XDA-Developers?! He tld me that get great ideas, and free programs from there!! So yes microsoft does use this site!!

Jinto.Lin said:
I know that you guys are getting flack from Microsoft, and I don't mind using something that they don't like. I don't mind voiding my Warranty either. (After all, I had to replace my HTC wizard's screen myself!) But is it legal to use a WM6 rom? I don't use pirated software, so I would avoid any Roms that have any, and I do like WM6.
But I'll ask it like this: Is installing WM6 like installing a pirated copy of XP on my PC? Or is it like modding Windows XP to do things similar to Vista?
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It's so illigal as hell!
Regards, Schmia

famewolf said:
Installing WM6 on a WM5 phone is the equivalent of installing XP on a machine that had windows 98 installed on it.
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I'm seeing it more like hacking an XBOX2 firmware on to an original XBOX. The PC analogy doesn't work because there are other OS choices that could be used - Linux for example. The hardware isn't dependent on the software and can be purchased sperately.
But the PocketPC is like the XBOX where the firmware only works on that hardware and they are sold together and can only come together. You can't get the hardware without the software and add it later.
I say it's a Grey area but I ran into a Microsoft Rep at a training class and he was running WM6 on his Cingular 8125 and was all proud of it until I showed him my K-Jam running the Touch FW.
-Mc

hmm
come to think of it you would need a copy of the eula or any licence agreement with the os to actually know. Otherwise we are all guessing.

I looked at the license for my copy of WM5 and it did say it was only to be used with the device on which it was purchased and could not be rented, leased, or lent. But, yeah, I agree with Sandrobber.

mdhensley5 said:
I looked at the license for my copy of WM5 and it did say it was only to be used with the device on which it was purchased and could not be rented, leased, or lent. But, yeah, I agree with Sandrobber.
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Here is amy view as to what we are doing. The issue is not Microsoft, but our carriers who take a base OEM ROM and play with it to push their services and we end up with a less than optimal phone.
I do not use pirated software on principle, but I use the ROMs we cook and host elsewhere( not in this board) because I have tried and cannot buy the OS from MSFT directly. So If we could buy the software and get service, updates and Service packs, I am certain we would all be willing to pay for it.
I have Microsoft development folks who come to me with issues in their devices and I point them here. They love what we do "unnoficially".
But I kid you not we are a threat to the carriers and they are the ones pressuring the vendor to try to shut us down...
Be on the lookout for the new FCC guidelines which are part of the bandwith spectrum sale. They will allow us the end user to use our devices with any carrier and install ANY software we want in OUR phones.

Just use it
Seriously who cares? Just use it buddy! We all do so many illegal things in life. Illegal things do not always amount to being a criminal like recording a TV programme which is ok with billions of people but criminal according to the FBI but then isn't everything illegal according to the FBI?

I was at a Tmo call center the other day working and a HTC rep was there preaching about the wing. I asked him if we will ever be offered a WM6 download and he told me that there is instructions on the internet of how to do it if I look around.

schmia said:
It's so illigal as hell!
Regards, Schmia
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u're such a dumbass

Would you pay for an upgrade of WM if you could ?

It is intruiging that Microsoft does not offer their mobile OS for sale. Today's flashing possibilities would make it perfectly possible to provide upgrades to WM, even if users had to pay for them. Ok, you always have the specific hardware driver issues but there could be solutions to that, if the possibilty to upgrade would exist at all ...
Imagine Microsoft were releasing payable upgrades to a higher OS version (e.g. WM 6.5) of their mobile OS, would you go for it or would you rather buy a new phone ? How much would you be ready to pay ? Do you think that OEMs would embrace such an approach ?

Firstly all the phones are very sensative to changes, that is why you cannot install a rom designed for a different phone. MS would have to create a different update for every different phone, this is also evident with the windows update app build into windows. MS doesn't post updates because all the manufatures build the hardware and use the software in differnent ways.
Secondly why would you want to pay for an update when you can get an even better cooked rom for free?

tvrtim said:
...
Secondly why would you want to pay for an update when you can get an even better cooked rom for free?
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Because if MS did start selling the O/S in a box like normal Windows, they would then be much stricter on sites like this as they would be protecting revenue. You would have only purchased windows 3.1 and not the upgrade to Win 2000 so you would not have a legal license to use Win 2000 - bye bye cooked roms!
Like you say though, I doubt very much we will be able to buy Windows mobile 7 from our local shop, too much bloat would be needed (imagine all the diferent drivers!) to make it multi-phone capable out of the box. This would all eat our valuable RAM very quickly!
As to the question though, I might pay but that would depend on price and features..... its a very open question.

I would if it was a real upgrade
imho then wm have not really got a real upgrade since wm5
wm6 wm6.1 wm6.5 are more in the bug-fixes and skins category as I see it