Related
just dont buy their Vista! that should teach them something! never piss off thoses that supporting u!
netnerd said:
just dont buy their Vista! that should teach them something! never piss off thoses that supporting u!
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I never planned on it, what a rip off! XP will last another 3-5 years, then I am sure the next PC/MAC will have something better.
netnerd said:
just dont buy their Vista! that should teach them something! never piss off thoses that supporting u!
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OK....you got me....what does this have to do with upgrading your hermes.
maybe that you can not run upgrade software under vista
tco said:
OK....you got me....what does this have to do with upgrading your hermes.
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The pukes in Micro$oft's compliance and licensing department have demanded take down of all ROMs- source of the only stable, up-to-date WM versions of their piece-o-crap OS.
Palm did this to Shadowmite about a year ago after Cingular and Verizon started to complain to Palm. Basically MS is admiting that Gates is the carriers' *****- its a shame that sanctimonious prick elected to breed: conquers the computer world then surrenders it to Ma Bell, her children and their content providers.
Guess it's time to spread some pirated Office 2003 love....
I betcha what bothered them was the progress being made by the XDA Linux project- after seeing what Access released earlier this week M$ ought to be running scared.
I'm running SuSE Linux and have no problem upgrading my roms on my HTC TyTN.
and by the way.... all the little pretty pictures and how VISTA does multi windows with content.. Linux does too! XGL!!!!
This got me thinking.... can we load Linux on our phones?
This is annoying that M$ has to do this. They just cant leave anything alone.
Oh if Linux can do a ROM load then surely OSX can too then.
Yeah spread the good word on the process. In another topic of course(dont wanna de-rail)
This thread needs more LOLZOR1111!!!!
Seriously, wtf?
Don't buy Vista to show them what exactly?
Yeah, let's use a 5 year old OS with easily exploited security issues to teach them what?
The term cutting off your nose to spite your face comes to mind.
Also, they are protecting their legal intellectual property, and they are in the wrong?
What we do here has always been of dubious legal standing. We carry on as long as we are allowed, but we stop when we are told to stop, and that way nobody gets into trouble.
Get a grip on reality people.
Exactly well said. The trouble is instead of a nice comprehensive source of good ROMs made by people who know what they're doing. There'll be a proliferation of hacked-up images with random hacked version numbers scattered across the internet.
Will this result in fewer bricked phones and support calls?
AlanJC said:
Get a grip on reality people.
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I couldn't agree more.
Apparently a lot of people have problems with "reality" nowadays.
Yes, it sucks that the ROMs have to be pulled from the ftp servers.
Yes, Microsoft could do better and show a firmer stand regarding the carriers.
Yes, this online community is very valuable to Microsoft AND the carriers, if they realize it or not.
BUT: there are laws and if Microsoft demands the removal of the ROMs, it is their right to do so, like it or not. They could have used a more "aggressive" approach with their law department but they chose to use a more "soft" approach and this is a very wise decision.
However, Microsoft must realize that such unpopular decisions won't be forgotten and such actions will definetely not make their already bad reputation much better.
Calling for a boycott doesn't help much, I'm pretty sure myself that the carriers are behind the ROM removal, not necessarily Microsoft.
Maybe we should write a letter to the carriers, asking them if they're behind the pressure on Microsoft to have the ROMs removed. If the carriers are blamed instead and their decisions are out in the open, maybe they re-consider because trust me, I would NOT want to be a customer of a carrier who asked Microsoft to remove the ROMs. Definetely not.
personaly i'm not planning on getting vista untill maybe sp4
anyway
xp with 3th party software and no IE is safe enough
vista is mostly 3th party software functionality now as a std. ms thing
and fancy eye candy which linux and macos had for ages
but if ms see that vista is not selling as well as it should
and they connect the dots and form a picture that show that
their pull unoffical roms off sites
there is something wrong with their heads
Vista already not selling as well as it should - it started to show when it was released for volume (corporate) clients, and now its well clear that ordinary users dont rush to buy it despite all PR tsunami unleashed - maybe its "good, advanced, beautiful" and all the buzz, but even thick Joe User sees thats its somewhat lot of problems and complaints floating around.
The whole Vista thing was a reckless scheme - MS spent millions on development, but they lost the clear understanding of why exactly people will want it - on the latest stages it was more of make beleief.
Now they will have to transfer money from other branches, that is more profitable (namely being their Office branch, XBox being not profitable on their own). I think thats why they made it "WM6" (when it was clearly 5.2 originally and still 5.2 in matter of features and internal versioning) - for WM6 they can charge license fees from ODMs as for entirely new OS.
@All
Forget about roms, we will find alternative way to store them, so this is just empty talk. There are free filehosting sites, and other p2p distributing variants, so what's the problem? Microsoft has the rights to ask for deleting the roms, everyone know that. We will continiue what we doing but with difrend way of distributing rom images, thats all. About vista is sucks, you have to confirm every action you do about hunderd times, it works slow even with effects shutted down, and on high end configuration PC, it randomly loose settings, cookies, passwords, favorites, software and other stuff, overall it is unreliable fo usage.
I love to hate MS as much as the rest of you, but everybody needs to step back and take a breath on this one. The reason MS is doing this has nothing to do with piracy, Vista, progress, Linux, taking over the world, Bill Gates, them being money-grubbing pigs, or your grandmother.
The reasoning is simple...under US intellectual property laws, if they are made aware that someone is distributing their intellectual property (like a ROM that contains MS software) and they make no attempt to stop it, they forfeit their rights to that intellectual property. I don't think I need to explain why giving up their rights would be a bad idea for them.
In my experience, companies try to ignore sites like this for as long as they possibly can, because nobody wants to attract the kind of bad press a takedown notice causes. Inevitably, however, things get too big...a site gets a mention in the news, or it becomes the defacto source for ROMs, or it gets frequent mentions in other forums like cingular.com, and the attorneys finally have to face the fact that they can't possibly claim in court that they weren't aware that their IP was being distributed.
All companies do things like this every day to a lot of great sites and forums, not because they are jerks, but because the US legal system requires them to.
In the meantime, we just have to move on and do what everyone else does--find somewhere else to keep the bits
The reasoning is simple...under US intellectual property laws, if they are made aware that someone is distributing their intellectual property (like a ROM that contains MS software) and they make no attempt to stop it, they forfeit their rights to that intellectual property. I don't think I need to explain why giving up their rights would be a bad idea for them.
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Actually that's completely untrue. I think you're thinking of trademarks which do behave in that way. That was the reason for the necessary recent legal cases by Linus over the Linux trademark. There's no such requirement for copyrights or patents.
Not being on the inside it's hard to know the reason for the action: Whether it's the OEM's complaining. I think their logic is that if they only provide updates with new hardware then you'll have no choice but to buy their new hardware. and that people making updates for their older devices are harming their sales figures. they really are that dumb.
The alternative is that MS are annoyed/worried about all the information leaking about WM6 before launch and they simply want to control the release situation.
ivorh said:
Actually that's completely untrue. I think you're thinking of trademarks which do behave in that way. That was the reason for the necessary recent legal cases by Linus over the Linux trademark. There's no such requirement for copyrights or patents.
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Not quite...the nature in which you forfeit rights is different between copyrights and trademarks, but due diligence is required for both. If a known copyright infringement is not pursued within the statute of limitations, implied license is granted, meaning the infringer can essentially distribute at will.
ivorh said:
Actually that's completely untrue. I think you're thinking of trademarks which do behave in that way. That was the reason for the necessary recent legal cases by Linus over the Linux trademark. There's no such requirement for copyrights or patents.
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Click to collapse
Not quite...the nature in which you forfeit rights is different between copyrights and trademarks, but due diligence is required for both. If a known copyright infringement is not pursued within the statute of limitations, implied license is granted.
No offence guys but Microsoft or the Vendors wouldn't have given crap about the roms here if it wasn't for the idiots (yes you know who you are) pestering the vendors and Microsoft about support for yet to be released roms. Either bugging them with questions on why something doesn't work anymore, how to use something in the new rom (GPS....), or warrenty repair for f'ing up one's device. Not to mention how pissed they must be for the even bigger idiots who contact Vender A and tell them they installed Vendor A rom on Vender B device
Really what it comes down to is if it costs them money they are going to make a stink and handling service calls for hacked/unsupported roms costs them money. Not to mention how much it would piss off Vendor A to spend money enhancing their rom only to have news sites promoting the rom to other Vendor B devices and have people installing it on Vendor B's device.
That's really what this is all about so if there is anyone to blame in all this, don't blame Microsoft or the Vendors, blame those people because if it wasn't for them, the vendors and Microsoft would have given a sh*t and probably just let things be the way they should be.
Maybe an appropriate response would be to overwhelm MS and the Carriers support systems with complaints about slow, non functioning, unstable software and devices.
The Carriers who actually sell most of us our phones should be ashamed of offering such substandard products. The diference between an "XDA-Developers sourced ROM" and the stock ROM on my device at least is enormous. Yet it was achieved by unpaid amateurs, I mean no disrespect to ROM chefs with this statement.
With the Windows update features built in to WM6 maybe there is a mechanism for MS to offer timely updates/fixes direct to the user. These updates could have incorporated "XDA-Developers" inspired enhancements and bug fixes. Sadly I feel this will not now be the case.
Yes, I can understand the global motives of MS in protecting its intelectual property but I cannot perceive any benefit to MS by exerting its right/might in this case.
</RANT>
I know that you guys are getting flack from Microsoft, and I don't mind using something that they don't like. I don't mind voiding my Warranty either. (After all, I had to replace my HTC wizard's screen myself!) But is it legal to use a WM6 rom? I don't use pirated software, so I would avoid any Roms that have any, and I do like WM6.
But I'll ask it like this: Is installing WM6 like installing a pirated copy of XP on my PC? Or is it like modding Windows XP to do things similar to Vista?
Installing WM6 on a WM5 phone is the equivalent of installing XP on a machine that had windows 98 installed on it.
Yes, but in your example, was it a pirated version?
The reason I say this is because I've heard that the copy of WM6 that was first found was leaked from Microsoft. So then is it something that is legal?
Its a grey area. From my understanding, Microsoft released WM6 and gave phone manufacturers free upgrades to offer to customers. HTC intended to release them, but the carriers (AT&T and T-Mobile) chose not to so that they can push new phones on people who don't need them just so they can get WM6 (i.e. T-Mobile's Wing, which has the same power, features, etc as the Wizard, just a little thinner, a retarded blue color, and with WM6).
So I guess you can say, since WM6 isn't for sale, you didn't necessarily steal it, so its not illegal. Microsoft's main issue is the fact that cookers on this forum have taken WM6 and modified it to their liking, which they consider copyright infringement.
from my understanding, everyone paid already for it
Wares was sold, another are waiting to BE sold etc...
Grey area is what is working for they bills imo.
imagine whole process...since computer became home thing.
Are they poorer or richer now..?
Do we have to feel like sinners?
(i am not lawyer, you know..)
Then give me linux noW. For my Wizard.
Thanks for clearing that up! Now I don't feel bad about using it.
At Tech Ed, I cornered Microsoft's Pocket PC guy, and asked him the same thing. He also explained it for the same reasons up above.
He said Microsoft would have NO problem distributing the OS, except that they sign contracts with the carriers (T-Mobile, AT&T), and in those contracts, it says that they will give them the OS exclusively.
From a legal standpoint (I am not a lawyer), it seems like Microsoft has no problems distributing it, but if they did (or openly endorsed it), it would violate their contract with the carriers. Since I have no contract with the carriers, I have no problem using it.
Btwa -- The Microsoft guy also says that everyone here at xda-developers are bad-asses, and he reads the forum regularly.
swingheim said:
Btwa -- The Microsoft guy also says that everyone here at xda-developers are bad-asses, and he reads the forum regularly.
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Click to collapse
meh meh, we all are here to learn
Beta testers
Yeah, I bet the watch the forum for tips and ideas, then claim the cred for it
Ford Motor Company is working with Microsoft to develop a "Sync" system for cars and trucks. Lets you connect your phone, ipod, usb drive etc. to the Cars entertainment center. They recently flashed a bunch of the vehicles at my shop, with the latest upgrades. I cmplained to the guy, about my Wizard not syncing. After the flash he came over and asked to try my phone. Not only did it work, it was capable of streaming to the the sync system. This was the first time they had it working in the field. The guy was so excited he made phne calls telling everyone about it!! He wanted to buy my Wizard!! I told him about how we make our own ROM's and stuff. And he asked me if I knew about XDA-Developers?! He tld me that get great ideas, and free programs from there!! So yes microsoft does use this site!!
Jinto.Lin said:
I know that you guys are getting flack from Microsoft, and I don't mind using something that they don't like. I don't mind voiding my Warranty either. (After all, I had to replace my HTC wizard's screen myself!) But is it legal to use a WM6 rom? I don't use pirated software, so I would avoid any Roms that have any, and I do like WM6.
But I'll ask it like this: Is installing WM6 like installing a pirated copy of XP on my PC? Or is it like modding Windows XP to do things similar to Vista?
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It's so illigal as hell!
Regards, Schmia
famewolf said:
Installing WM6 on a WM5 phone is the equivalent of installing XP on a machine that had windows 98 installed on it.
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I'm seeing it more like hacking an XBOX2 firmware on to an original XBOX. The PC analogy doesn't work because there are other OS choices that could be used - Linux for example. The hardware isn't dependent on the software and can be purchased sperately.
But the PocketPC is like the XBOX where the firmware only works on that hardware and they are sold together and can only come together. You can't get the hardware without the software and add it later.
I say it's a Grey area but I ran into a Microsoft Rep at a training class and he was running WM6 on his Cingular 8125 and was all proud of it until I showed him my K-Jam running the Touch FW.
-Mc
hmm
come to think of it you would need a copy of the eula or any licence agreement with the os to actually know. Otherwise we are all guessing.
I looked at the license for my copy of WM5 and it did say it was only to be used with the device on which it was purchased and could not be rented, leased, or lent. But, yeah, I agree with Sandrobber.
mdhensley5 said:
I looked at the license for my copy of WM5 and it did say it was only to be used with the device on which it was purchased and could not be rented, leased, or lent. But, yeah, I agree with Sandrobber.
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Here is amy view as to what we are doing. The issue is not Microsoft, but our carriers who take a base OEM ROM and play with it to push their services and we end up with a less than optimal phone.
I do not use pirated software on principle, but I use the ROMs we cook and host elsewhere( not in this board) because I have tried and cannot buy the OS from MSFT directly. So If we could buy the software and get service, updates and Service packs, I am certain we would all be willing to pay for it.
I have Microsoft development folks who come to me with issues in their devices and I point them here. They love what we do "unnoficially".
But I kid you not we are a threat to the carriers and they are the ones pressuring the vendor to try to shut us down...
Be on the lookout for the new FCC guidelines which are part of the bandwith spectrum sale. They will allow us the end user to use our devices with any carrier and install ANY software we want in OUR phones.
Just use it
Seriously who cares? Just use it buddy! We all do so many illegal things in life. Illegal things do not always amount to being a criminal like recording a TV programme which is ok with billions of people but criminal according to the FBI but then isn't everything illegal according to the FBI?
I was at a Tmo call center the other day working and a HTC rep was there preaching about the wing. I asked him if we will ever be offered a WM6 download and he told me that there is instructions on the internet of how to do it if I look around.
schmia said:
It's so illigal as hell!
Regards, Schmia
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u're such a dumbass
As you all know we all love having our custom roms on our HTC devices, it makes them much faster and has many more applications and content!
But the truth is, is all this legal?
I wanted to hear it out straight from the horses mouth so i went straight to the big guys, Google INCs Android.
Dissapointingly on their website thye have no Contact Us or e-mail so i just browsed about.
What i found out?
I found out that Android is a free, open source Os so any one can come in, get an SDK and develop some apps.
What i didn't find out?
What i did not find out is it flashing or creating roms is legal.
So i went up to the guys who gave Android a try, HTC!
I asked them exactly this:
Is flashing custom Android roms legal on the HTC Hero/HTC Android phones?
This is because Android is a free open soruce fully customisable mobile platfrm created by google INC.
Thank you
They said:, well Terry from HTC said:
Dear Blazr Thank you for your enquiry about Android devices This is how we keep these devices up to date and current. What happens is that google inc release these Roms to us and we make HTC Rom updates from them, so they are 100% legal. If these steps have not helped, please let me know by responding using the link provided and I will be happy to check again for you. Best regards, Terry Snelling HTC customer support team HTC Corp. Global Service Division http://www.htc.com/europe/CA_Hotline.aspx
Then i asked my question again:
No i am asking if flashing UNOFFICAL CUSTOM MADE ROMS are legal, not flashinggoogles, please can you reply
And they said this:
Dear Blazr Thank you for your enquiry about Rom updates If you dont update to rom from www.HTC.com, or your providers website, then this will be a illegal rom and will lose your warranty. If these steps have not helped, please let me know by responding using the link provided and I will be happy to check again for you. Best regards, Terry Snelling HTC customer support team HTC Corp. Global Service Division http://www.htc.com/europe/CA_Hotline.aspx
Well i aint sure if this helped but there you go,
They said that
1 Flashing a rom not from HTC or Google is ILLEGAL
2 And that it will ruin your warranty
So if youre someone who doesn't care but wants the best from his device, like me, then continue supporting custom rom makers.
But if you are someone, like my aint, who LOVES their warranty and hates hacking and 'this nonsense,' they say. Then stick with Android 2.0.
But What do you think,
Thats what i would like to know!
Please respond and give your opiion,
Regards
Sorry if this is long
This is nothing new, we know this for already years. They (MS, HTC, etc.) tolerate it.
Many will argue that as you have paid for the device it is up to you what you do with the device..
I very much doubt flashing a non-official ROM is illegal.. I know of no law that it breaks..
Meekel said:
Many will argue that as you have paid for the device it is up to you what you do with the device..
I very much doubt flashing a non-official ROM is illegal.. I know of no law that it breaks..
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I think the only thing it "breaks" is your warranty.
djn541 said:
I think the only thing it "breaks" is your warranty.
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Correct.. in addition, the email said an "illegal rom" not that it was illegal to flash a rom
Meekel said:
Correct.. in addition, the email said an "illegal rom" not that it was illegal to flash a rom
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Exactly. In the e-mail and "illegal rom" is a rom that does not originat from google itself, HTC (or other manufacturer), or your carrier. illegal roms, "cooked Roms" are only illegal in the sense that you will void your warranty. Not that you will go to prison.
lol, of course flashing an unoffical Windows Mobile ROM is illegal! From a legal standpoint, cooked ROMs are an intellectual property nightmare! That's why XDA has to remove links to ROM builds when they get a cease and desist letter. Otherwise, they'd go to court and lose the case because M$ is clearly within its rights to request the ROMs be taken down. Now, are you going to be imprisoned because you use a cooked ROM? Of course not. M$ is smart enough to know when not to alienate its best customers. HTC and M$ could take most of the software off this board in an instant due to all that software existing in a copyright gray area which favors them. However, they know when they should respect their enthusiast community and there's a defacto understanding between the device enthusiasts and them.
For Android, the situation's actually a bit different. Most of Android is open source, and licensed under an Apache 2 or a GPL v2 license. Flashing ROMs containing only the open source parts are completely legal (though warranty voiding because they're not from the OEM). However, Google includes some of their own closed source applications like YouTube, GMail, Google Maps, etc. in Android OS, and these cannot be redistributed as they are proprietary to Google. This ensures that only manufactures they approve can make Android devices with full functionality. The classic example of this is when Android ROM cook Cyanogen recieved a C&D letter from Google, because his custom firmware contained these applications and he was not within his legal rights to redistribute them with his ROMs. So, it can get a bit tricky with Android, but the short answer is yes, it's technically illegal to flash full cooked ROMS (i.e. with Google proprietary apps).
However, you shouldn't worry about the police taking you away or finding yourself with a lawsuit just because you flash a cooked ROM. The corporations usually don't mess with their enthusiast community, and usually the worst they do is have the offending software taken down. However, you should keep in mind that the corporations are almost always, in these cases, within their rights to issue a law suit or similar (though they always go for the big-time chefs and not the users, to make a point).
DaveTheTytnIIGuy said:
lol, of course flashing an unoffical Windows Mobile ROM is illegal! From a legal standpoint, cooked ROMs are an intellectual property nightmare! That's why XDA has to remove links to ROM builds when they get a cease and desist letter. Otherwise, they'd go to court and lose the case because M$ is clearly within its rights to request the ROMs be taken down. Now, are you going to be imprisoned because you use a cooked ROM? Of course not. M$ is smart enough to know when not to alienate its best customers. HTC and M$ could take most of the software off this board in an instant due to all that software existing in a copyright gray area which favors them. However, they know when they should respect their enthusiast community and there's a defacto understanding between the device enthusiasts and them.
For Android, the situation's actually a bit different. Most of Android is open source, and licensed under an Apache 2 or a GPL v2 license. Flashing ROMs containing only the open source parts are completely legal (though warranty voiding because they're not from the OEM). However, Google includes some of their own closed source applications like YouTube, GMail, Google Maps, etc. in Android OS, and these cannot be redistributed as they are proprietary to Google. This ensures that only manufactures they approve can make Android devices with full functionality. The classic example of this is when Android ROM cook Cyanogen recieved a C&D letter from Google, because his custom firmware contained these applications and he was not within his legal rights to redistribute them with his ROMs. So, it can get a bit tricky with Android, but the short answer is yes, it's technically illegal to flash full cooked ROMS (i.e. with Google proprietary apps).
However, you shouldn't worry about the police taking you away or finding yourself with a lawsuit just because you flash a cooked ROM. The corporations usually don't mess with their enthusiast community, and usually the worst they do is have the offending software taken down. However, you should keep in mind that the corporations are almost always, in these cases, within their rights to issue a law suit or similar (though they always go for the big-time chefs and not the users, to make a point).
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Click to collapse
Well said. Kudos to you
DaveTheTytnIIGuy said:
lol, of course flashing an unoffical Windows Mobile ROM is illegal! From a legal standpoint, cooked ROMs are an intellectual property nightmare! That's why XDA has to remove links to ROM builds when they get a cease and desist letter. Otherwise, they'd go to court and lose the case because M$ is clearly within its rights to request the ROMs be taken down. Now, are you going to be imprisoned because you use a cooked ROM? Of course not. M$ is smart enough to know when not to alienate its best customers. HTC and M$ could take most of the software off this board in an instant due to all that software existing in a copyright gray area which favors them. However, they know when they should respect their enthusiast community and there's a defacto understanding between the device enthusiasts and them.
For Android, the situation's actually a bit different. Most of Android is open source, and licensed under an Apache 2 or a GPL v2 license. Flashing ROMs containing only the open source parts are completely legal (though warranty voiding because they're not from the OEM). However, Google includes some of their own closed source applications like YouTube, GMail, Google Maps, etc. in Android OS, and these cannot be redistributed as they are proprietary to Google. This ensures that only manufactures they approve can make Android devices with full functionality. The classic example of this is when Android ROM cook Cyanogen recieved a C&D letter from Google, because his custom firmware contained these applications and he was not within his legal rights to redistribute them with his ROMs. So, it can get a bit tricky with Android, but the short answer is yes, it's technically illegal to flash full cooked ROMS (i.e. with Google proprietary apps).
However, you shouldn't worry about the police taking you away or finding yourself with a lawsuit just because you flash a cooked ROM. The corporations usually don't mess with their enthusiast community, and usually the worst they do is have the offending software taken down. However, you should keep in mind that the corporations are almost always, in these cases, within their rights to issue a law suit or similar (though they always go for the big-time chefs and not the users, to make a point).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well said man, well said. They wouldn't track you down cause you flashed a rom but if some how, what are the likes of this but, a clever police man checked out your phone then we may be introuble. But thats what i a saying cause Modacos rom has google applications in it i think..
Non the less, what they have said is that it is illegal to post custom roms with their applications in it, so its sort of legal to flash your own rom without the need of googles stuff.
djn541 said:
I think the only thing it "breaks" is your warranty.
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Exactly, if the thing breaks from manufactors defects then i cant return it and have tp pay to get it fixed otherwise i must say hello to insurance, which i aint sure how much it is on the Hero.
Meekel said:
Many will argue that as you have paid for the device it is up to you what you do with the device..
I very much doubt flashing a non-official ROM is illegal.. I know of no law that it breaks..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
True, it just breaks the manufactors agreement but they say its illegal, its like putting CFW on a PSP or Wii.??
Also if you piad 400 of your great british pounds or american bucks then you should be able to do what you like to it, when you like to it, (except be a stupid p!rate)..
blazr said:
True, it just breaks the manufactors agreement but they say its illegal, its like putting CFW on a PSP or Wii.??
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I disgaree with this statement purely on the fact that in the UK no one has been prosecuted for chipping/modding a games console.
They have only be prosecuted for selling these devices..
I understand your point though..
Meekel said:
I disgaree with this statement purely on the fact that in the UK no one has been prosecuted for chipping/modding a games console.
They have only be prosecuted for selling these devices..
I understand your point though..
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Click to collapse
Maybe not, but I'm fairly sure UK law states that "circumventing protection" is a crime. Flashing a ROM isn't illegal, but HSPL/SSPL is as you're circumventing the protection which prevents you from flashing.
Distributing ROMs is also illegal as you are making/distributing copies of someone else's source code.
So I think that as long as you don't use HSPL/SSPL and don't distribute your ROMs it wouldn't be illegal. But then again, I'm no solicitor (lawyer for you yanks )
Blade0rz said:
Maybe not, but I'm fairly sure UK law states that "circumventing protection" is a crime. Flashing a ROM isn't illegal, but HSPL/SSPL is as you're circumventing the protection which prevents you from flashing.
Distributing ROMs is also illegal as you are making/distributing copies of someone else's source code.
So I think that as long as you don't use HSPL/SSPL and don't distribute your ROMs it wouldn't be illegal. But then again, I'm no solicitor (lawyer for you yanks )
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree that distributing ROMs is illegal as you would be using IP from whatever company it is therefore would be breaking the law..
Ack, it's a complicated issue ain't it..?
Your very right. Its a very complicated issue as it falls under many categories. And the fact that laws are very different in different countries. This issue can be compared with lots of cases.
I will try to resume it this way:
1) When you purchase an electronic device containing software, you own the hardware, but only are licensing the usage of the provided software. This means you cannot do whatever you want with the device, i.e. you may not reverse engineer the software (at least in most western countries).
2) Flashing offical ROM's, which are provided by the manufacturer to be used by customers are not illegal, or it would be the manufacturer's responsability if he did not license the software for distribution. If the customer bricks the device while flashing it, he way lose warranty.
3) Flashing unofficial ROM's: the legal aspect of it is not concerning the act of flashing, but the question if you are entitled to a valid license of all included software modules. In most cases you are not. Even if you are entitled to the software modules contained in the unoffical ROM, flashing it to the device definitly voids the warranty. The question is: can the manufacturer prove you used an unofficial ROM. In most cases he can't, specially if you flash back to an offical ROM prior to sending the faulty device in.
4) In practical terms: as long as you download the unoffical ROM without spreading it yourself (aka using a P2P client) and as long as you don't offer the unoffical ROM yourself, it is very unlikely that you risk any legal trouble. The reason being that the offense has a very small value compared to the difficulty to actually prove anything. No policeman has the knowledge and authority to check the firmware of your phone...
However, in case of malfunction, the manufacturer can always refuse warranty if he can prove that an unoffical ROM has been flashed to the device. Again, often manufacturers like HTC seem to be pretty customer-friendly. I have a Blue Angel that broke within warranty after I flashed a custom ROM (was conincidence and not the ROM's fault). I got a free repair, but the device was returned with the latest official HTC ROM. Fair enough.
5) What you should be carefull about: take care not to publish (or at least in a traceable way) unofficial firmware containing third party software which has not been licensed, i.e. using a cracked version.
6) Final thoughts: As has been stated here already, I believe that a forum like this one is probably monitored by people from Microsoft and HTC (both companies being the reason for this forum to exist in first place). Because it has been pretty clean and basically providing corrected ROM's to entusiasts, no real harm is done to either company and perhaps even quite the opposite: any problem you experience on an HTC phone, search for a resultion in Google and you end up here. I think this is the best support forum any company could desire, so why make a war against it...
Cheers,
vma
Well said vma
Deffinition of illegal,
1. not according to or authorized by law
2. not sanctioned by official rules
I think in the context we're discussing here #1 does NOT apply, but #2 does.
I don't think any law has been written that makes it a crime to flash a custom ROM to your phone. However according to some "official" rules it is illegal. But when you commit an illegal act that is a violation of rules, it is not punishible by law. No, the punishment is handed down by the manufacturer and that is the voiding of your warranty.
It's hard to commit a truly illegal crime against yourself. Can you steal from yourself? Can you hit yourself in the head and be prosecuted for assault? The only one I can think of is suicide. But have you ever seen the crime of suicide prosecuted? (I'm not talking about assisted suicide here)
Interesting discussion, and just my 2 cents,
@dirkbonn:
Your line of thinking is wrong. I am by no means a lawyer or what so ever, BUT: the flashing of cooked ROM's is illegal because:
1) It required REVERSE ENGINEERING of software to be done. Defined in most countries as illegal.
2) It involves the use of unlicensed software. Defined in most countries as illegal.
3) It involves in many cases the removal of locks imposed by the operator. Again, this is illegal, because you accepted a contract in which you commited to refrain from doing that.
What some people don't seem to understand is: when you purchase the device, it comes with software which you only license for use. You do not own the software. Also, you are only granted to use the provided versions. You cannot assume that you have the right to use a more recent version or a version in another language. The right to decide upon that, belongs to the owner of the intellectual property of the software.
Again, debating about the logic of such laws will not change the law.
To change the law, you need to vote for the right politicians and pressure them to approve laws, you are comfortable with.
In my modest opinion, laws regarding the protection of intellectual property have to quickly be revised, in order to avoid having the whole population commiting offenses and crimes.
Cheers,
vma
Request to HTC
hello everybody. recently I asked HTC about this issue.
Question:
"Dear Sirs and Madams
I wanted to ask you if updating a HTC Touch HD from WM 6.1 to WM 6.5 with a downloaded ROM not from the HTC or Microsoft-Website is illegal or not. For me it is clear that if I do so, I lose my warranty on it, but am I allowed to do so?"
Answer:
"Thank you for contacting us. Installing non official ROM on your devcie will void your warranty . It may also cause problems in funcionality on your device. It is up to you to decide to install any ROM on your device. I trust that this resolves your query, please do not hesitate to contact us again if required."
best regards,
sblubb
Definatly not illegal. Will void your warranty BUT most of the things you get in your warranty are covered by your statutory rights, which you still have.
As an employee of Vodafone UK. I can confirm from a network operators POV, we do NOT refuse warranty exchanges on an Android device that has been rooted or custom ROM'ed as long as the fault is a hardware fault.
This is because Android is open source and it is illegal to try and charge or restrict it.
Windows devices however, we will not do anything if they are not running the stock image. That is because Windows is licensed software that the manufacturers have to pay to use.
Finally today i had enough... I filed a formal complaint with the FTC against motorola and all other mobile device manufacturers out lining the cause and effect of these companies selling us devices that we are made to be only users of rather than owners and administrators the devices we purchased. Nothing will change until we make some one step in and set the rules, i am encouraging everyone here on xda to do the same ... here is a link to the example complaint i filed and the link to the appropriate form to be filed
http://t0dbld.blogspot.com/2011/03/m...otloaders.html
https://www.ftccomplaintassistant.go...d.aspx?Lang=en
Here's some more food for though concerning smartphone security:
http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2011/03/carrier-intransigence-harms-internet-security
Perhaps we can spin our complaint with this in mind.
Basically since smartphones are essentially computers, I feel we should insist on being able to do what we want with them - Dell, HP, etc can't object when I choose to replace Windows on my PC with Linux, neither should Moto, HTC, etc be able to determine what we can and cannot run.
Also, if my phone has HDMI out, I can easily envision using it as a media player long after it's served its time as a phone.
IMO, people would be far better off signing this petition which will be presented to Motorola to try and persuade them to change their bootloader policies as they have previously promised to do.
It is a direct request to the one organisation who can change the matters for the better - Motorola themselves.
And unlike this thread, it doesn't rely upon subjective argument of entitlement.
Step666 said:
IMO, people would be far better off signing this petition which will be presented to Motorola to try and persuade them to change their bootloader policies as they have previously promised to do.
It is a direct request to the one organisation who can change the matters for the better - Motorola themselves.
And unlike this thread, it doesn't rely upon subjective argument of entitlement.
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first of all is there any harm in both ? secondly i respectfully disagree, some one needs to be put in charge of these things and so far the only thing that governs tech is law suits, as noted above HP did loose to FTC when they tried to deny people from not using windows on there machines, also petitions although the preferred method of hippies and college students do not hold there weight in most courts, i do know from personal exp. as if you really wish i can show you my supreme court case in the state of Michigan and yes years prior we started with a neighborhood petition that didn't even hold up in the local commissions and courts. either way i have signed said petition but i feel that if we get the FTC involved it will help the Petition as eyes will be upon it.... ALSO please keep in mind this is not just motorola they just happen to be better than other companies, jsut like computers we should not have to hack anything for administrator privileges, or to wipe the device and load are own software
But on what grounds would the FTC uphold your complaint?
Just because jailbreaking etc is not illegal, that doesn't give you a right to be able to install custom ROMs onto your handset, nor does it automatically make the measures that companies like Motorola take to prevent modification of their handsets illegal.
You say that the FTC ruled against HP for preventing laptop owners from installing Linux - how come when I Google 'FTC HP Linux', I find nothing relating to that?
Step666 said:
But on what grounds would the FTC uphold your complaint?
Just because jailbreaking etc is not illegal, that doesn't give you a right to be able to install custom ROMs onto your handset, nor does it automatically make the measures that companies like Motorola take to prevent modification of their handsets illegal.
You say that the FTC ruled against HP for preventing laptop owners from installing Linux - how come when I Google 'FTC HP Linux', I find nothing relating to that?
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this is not about jail breaking and if you make it about such it will not get looked at, this is about being sold a device that we are not given administrative right to or the ability to wipe and install any software we want on it.... You wouldn't stand for this on your home pc would you ?
Because the ruling was not about linux, it was about being forced to have windows and paying for the licensing, it became much bigger than just hp as well but it is there including the end results of hp having to offer it with out windows and to refund people's money that did not agree to windows terms and returned the license
t0dbld said:
this is about being sold a device that we are not given administrative right to or the ability to wipe and install any software we want on it...
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Right, ok, fine.
But that detail aside, my question still remains unanswered - why would they rule in your favour on that basis?
In what way are you entitled to be able to completely wipe your phone and install whatever you want onto it?
t0dbld said:
Because the ruling was not about linux, it was about being forced to have windows and paying for the licensing, it became much bigger than just hp as well but it is there including the end results of hp having to offer it with out windows and to refund people's money that did not agree to windows terms and returned the license
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Click to collapse
That's different then - it's one thing for HP to force customers to pay the licence fee for a copy of Windows they don't need/want but no-one is being forced to pay for an Android licence here, Motorola et al's practices are not costing the end user money.
I'm just trying to understand why you believe the FTC would consider your complaint, let alone side against the manufacturers.
look dude your still not getting it and thats ok, do it or dont, try to help or dont, have a good day
only a matter of time b4 these guys realize locked bootloaders dont help any1..
I have searched all over the internet and there is no article that explains exactly WHY and HOW could MS collect Royalities from EVERY single company that putts Google's Operating system into their devices. and not just any amount, but 5-10$ from every sold device!?!
Could someone explain to me why ? How is it that Microsoft is earning billions from something that is not theirs .. ? And as I read in one article - they didnt even pull up the lawsuit, they are just threatening with words, and everyone agrees (HTC, LG, Samsung, EVERYONE!)
WHAT has MS made, that Android copied, and that it belongs into MS's patent claims .. ?
And, what on earth is Google doing about that ?
Igoritza said:
I have searched all over the internet and there is no article that explains exactly WHY and HOW could MS collect Royalities from EVERY single company that putts Google's Operating system into their devices. and not just any amount, but 5-10$ from every sold device!?!
Could someone explain to me why ? How is it that Microsoft is earning billions from something that is not theirs .. ? And as I read in one article - they didnt even pull up the lawsuit, they are just threatening with words, and everyone agrees (HTC, LG, Samsung, EVERYONE!)
WHAT has MS made, that Android copied, and that it belongs into MS's patent claims .. ?
And, what on earth is Google doing about that ?
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Click to collapse
Short answer: the patent system is broken, at least with regards to software. You can patent any stupidly obvious or generic idea ("slide to unlock") and the patent office, which makes money off these, will probably accept it.
(Indeed, there was an accepted 1996 patent on using a laser pointer to play with a cat. Go figure.)
Thus, companies like microsoft spam ideas into the patent office. And the patents are taken seriously enough that many companies would rather settle than take the risk of having their products blocked.
Android didn't necessarily "steal" anything; our patent system doesn't give a crap. See, patents were originally supposed to spread out the technical specifications of an idea, in order to spread the knowhow. The problem is, where it comes to software, the technical specification is so tied in to the idea itself that they're pretty much one and the same. Effectively, you're patenting ideas, and the broken patent system now punishes others for coming up with similar ideas. There's an entire literature on the brokenness, if you google around.
As for google itself, I'm not sure they are doing anything. They bought Motorola, but that might've been to protect themselves. If they have a plan for protecting their OS' manufacturers, it's not very obvious at all.
---
TLDR: HTC, Samsung, etc being punished by a broken protectionist system. The only way around it is really to get rid of the system itself.
Ultimately, the users are the ones who suffer from having to pay the costs of all this litigation, but this is probably more a long-term than a short-term effect. For example, $5 of royalties will probably not make a phone go from $699.99 to $704.99. Rather, the effect is less money going into R&D all around, and more going into lawyers' pockets. So as a user, if a phone costs $650 or $600, that's just how much it costs.. for now.
So, basically, this is a Game of US companies and imprinting their legal system on the rest of the world .. ? .. ? Cause, I dont see anyone from the rest of the world getting anything extra .. ? Damn, someone needs to remove that continent from this planet.
But, WHAT is in the core of the Android so that MS gets their share .. ? I understand how HTC Sense may be connected to some of the early WM5 stuff, but what about the rest .. ? they CANT patent almost everything, or do they .. ? And as I figured out, most of the patented stuff is GUI, that is ridiculous!
MS don't collect from every android manufacturer, just some. Basically they claim google infringe on their patents and went to manufacturers saying "pay us or we sue you" but afaik no one knows what patents are infringed and I think Barnes and Noble told them to politely get lost so not sure how they fared but it shows not all say yes. Unfortunately ms have good lawyers that seem very persuasive.
Dave
Sent from my LG P920 using Tapatalk
Just found out everything:
It is true, that few people know what is the actual deal. Google has sucessfully defended themselves from Oracle that claimed several patents, and purchase of Motorola from google is actually a defence mechanism cause Motorolla holds over 17.000 patents (W T F!!!!!) God knows how many Microsoft is holding, and how ridiculous those patents are being that they have much more than Motorola.
No one is considering abandoning Android cause that system actually made their devices popular, but still they all have a problem with MS blackmailing them. HTC made a boom, but they are still a small Taiwanese company that struggles all around (not getting Hanstar IPS pannels cause Apple ordered more, not getting Gorilla cause Apple and samsung ordered more, and so on) .. so the 5$ toll is pretty big number for HTC phones, and they are the ones that are in the biggest problem right now (not talking about smaller players in the game)
Damn you USA and your laws. Pizza is a vegetable, Kinder surprise is banned cause stupid american children would eat the toy. and Microsoft somehow owns Google's Android.
I think the better question is, what has google come up with themselves rather than buying or stealing it?
z33dev33l said:
I think the better question is, what has google come up with themselves rather than buying or stealing it?
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Why would they, if they can just take what everyone else is doing and put it mostly into one system they will never need to come up with any original ideas. Heck look at iOS5 and what they put into it. They added (just to name a few)
1. icloud (in essence a play on windows cloud service with their windows phone devices of cloud storage. the exception is this syncs with other ios devices but a play on microsofts idea)
2. draggable notification bar (android has had this forever now. The difference, on ios you can get a stock ticker and weather instead of just your notifications.)
3. imessage (Blackberry Messenger for ios basically)
4. OTA updates (blackberry and android both used this before apple)
5. wifi syncing (I know windows had this in their windows phone 7 devices not sure of any others that had this feature before kies air in samsung.)
6. Reminders, see reminders by date (a lot of the widgets on android let you do this without even having to open the calendar app)
that's just to name a few and just to show every company does it, even someone as big as apple does it. If you come up with your own that's great but people don't take to it as well as something they have already had. For instance if you had android and apple wants you to come over to apple they are gonna give you the things you love about android most like draggable notifications, wifi hotspot, etc. There is no need for originality anymore. That is just what this world has come to.
z33dev33l said:
I think the better question is, what has google come up with themselves rather than buying or stealing it?
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Click to collapse
Why is that the question. Or are you suggesting that android is simply copied and stolen from others work?
Dave
Sent from my LG P920 using Tapatalk
z33dev33l said:
I think the better question is, what has google come up with themselves rather than buying or stealing it?
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What .. ? U serious .. ?
Man, copyright infringement these days is ridiculous, there is NO possible way to make anything "new" if you take that seriously, as it seems that american courts do.
It goes to the extent that almost anything can be patented, so that literally any rectangle shaped phone with TS could be patented by one company and so, baned for the rest. LG/Apple actually tried that (prada/iPhone) even though Eten, HTC (former Qtek) and HP already had PDA's with SIM functions much before that.
Android was developed before iOS (starting in 2005, already co-signed by 86 companies) and released in 2007, so there is no place for ripping off Apple. And, exept for the simultaneous development of iOS and Android which have similarities, I myself as a tech-geek and user of electronics, do not see ANY similarities of ANY android feature with ANY of the MS products and I had the chance to use them all - Windows versions on mobile and desktop machines. in terms of GUI and in terms of understanding how stuff works under the hood.
Im surely not able to understand 30k+ patents that MS holds, but that is not normal, that is more of a world sociology problem, rather than an actual technical one. that is retarded.
Igoritza said:
What .. ? U serious .. ?
Man, copyright infringement these days is ridiculous, there is NO possible way to make anything "new" if you take that seriously, as it seems that american courts do. .
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This is exactly on the dot. The way people have been duped into thinking that any sort of resemblance is "stealing" is actually sad.
And, unusually enough for z33, actually related to the topic. This entire ridiculous regime exists precisely because people are so ridiculously overprotective of their own ideas (or the ideas of whichever-team-you're-a-fanboi-of) while rationalizing their own copying of ideas from other people. The fact is, this copying is necessary because innovation does not exist in a vacuum, and yet we still react as stupid little apes when it comes to be our turn.
Sent from my Terran Command Center.
Well, this is how the system works. It's not about anything true, just what you can prove to be true.
There even exist companies that have the sole purpose of buying patents and using those patents to sue other companies!
In terms of the mobile industry, in case you didn't know, it is currently one of the hottest arenas in terms of patent lawsuits.
Here is a nice graphic: http://flowingdata.com/2011/08/22/mobile-patent-lawsuits-2/