just dont buy their Vista! that should teach them something! never piss off thoses that supporting u!
netnerd said:
just dont buy their Vista! that should teach them something! never piss off thoses that supporting u!
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I never planned on it, what a rip off! XP will last another 3-5 years, then I am sure the next PC/MAC will have something better.
netnerd said:
just dont buy their Vista! that should teach them something! never piss off thoses that supporting u!
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OK....you got me....what does this have to do with upgrading your hermes.
maybe that you can not run upgrade software under vista
tco said:
OK....you got me....what does this have to do with upgrading your hermes.
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The pukes in Micro$oft's compliance and licensing department have demanded take down of all ROMs- source of the only stable, up-to-date WM versions of their piece-o-crap OS.
Palm did this to Shadowmite about a year ago after Cingular and Verizon started to complain to Palm. Basically MS is admiting that Gates is the carriers' *****- its a shame that sanctimonious prick elected to breed: conquers the computer world then surrenders it to Ma Bell, her children and their content providers.
Guess it's time to spread some pirated Office 2003 love....
I betcha what bothered them was the progress being made by the XDA Linux project- after seeing what Access released earlier this week M$ ought to be running scared.
I'm running SuSE Linux and have no problem upgrading my roms on my HTC TyTN.
and by the way.... all the little pretty pictures and how VISTA does multi windows with content.. Linux does too! XGL!!!!
This got me thinking.... can we load Linux on our phones?
This is annoying that M$ has to do this. They just cant leave anything alone.
Oh if Linux can do a ROM load then surely OSX can too then.
Yeah spread the good word on the process. In another topic of course(dont wanna de-rail)
This thread needs more LOLZOR1111!!!!
Seriously, wtf?
Don't buy Vista to show them what exactly?
Yeah, let's use a 5 year old OS with easily exploited security issues to teach them what?
The term cutting off your nose to spite your face comes to mind.
Also, they are protecting their legal intellectual property, and they are in the wrong?
What we do here has always been of dubious legal standing. We carry on as long as we are allowed, but we stop when we are told to stop, and that way nobody gets into trouble.
Get a grip on reality people.
Exactly well said. The trouble is instead of a nice comprehensive source of good ROMs made by people who know what they're doing. There'll be a proliferation of hacked-up images with random hacked version numbers scattered across the internet.
Will this result in fewer bricked phones and support calls?
AlanJC said:
Get a grip on reality people.
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I couldn't agree more.
Apparently a lot of people have problems with "reality" nowadays.
Yes, it sucks that the ROMs have to be pulled from the ftp servers.
Yes, Microsoft could do better and show a firmer stand regarding the carriers.
Yes, this online community is very valuable to Microsoft AND the carriers, if they realize it or not.
BUT: there are laws and if Microsoft demands the removal of the ROMs, it is their right to do so, like it or not. They could have used a more "aggressive" approach with their law department but they chose to use a more "soft" approach and this is a very wise decision.
However, Microsoft must realize that such unpopular decisions won't be forgotten and such actions will definetely not make their already bad reputation much better.
Calling for a boycott doesn't help much, I'm pretty sure myself that the carriers are behind the ROM removal, not necessarily Microsoft.
Maybe we should write a letter to the carriers, asking them if they're behind the pressure on Microsoft to have the ROMs removed. If the carriers are blamed instead and their decisions are out in the open, maybe they re-consider because trust me, I would NOT want to be a customer of a carrier who asked Microsoft to remove the ROMs. Definetely not.
personaly i'm not planning on getting vista untill maybe sp4
anyway
xp with 3th party software and no IE is safe enough
vista is mostly 3th party software functionality now as a std. ms thing
and fancy eye candy which linux and macos had for ages
but if ms see that vista is not selling as well as it should
and they connect the dots and form a picture that show that
their pull unoffical roms off sites
there is something wrong with their heads
Vista already not selling as well as it should - it started to show when it was released for volume (corporate) clients, and now its well clear that ordinary users dont rush to buy it despite all PR tsunami unleashed - maybe its "good, advanced, beautiful" and all the buzz, but even thick Joe User sees thats its somewhat lot of problems and complaints floating around.
The whole Vista thing was a reckless scheme - MS spent millions on development, but they lost the clear understanding of why exactly people will want it - on the latest stages it was more of make beleief.
Now they will have to transfer money from other branches, that is more profitable (namely being their Office branch, XBox being not profitable on their own). I think thats why they made it "WM6" (when it was clearly 5.2 originally and still 5.2 in matter of features and internal versioning) - for WM6 they can charge license fees from ODMs as for entirely new OS.
@All
Forget about roms, we will find alternative way to store them, so this is just empty talk. There are free filehosting sites, and other p2p distributing variants, so what's the problem? Microsoft has the rights to ask for deleting the roms, everyone know that. We will continiue what we doing but with difrend way of distributing rom images, thats all. About vista is sucks, you have to confirm every action you do about hunderd times, it works slow even with effects shutted down, and on high end configuration PC, it randomly loose settings, cookies, passwords, favorites, software and other stuff, overall it is unreliable fo usage.
I love to hate MS as much as the rest of you, but everybody needs to step back and take a breath on this one. The reason MS is doing this has nothing to do with piracy, Vista, progress, Linux, taking over the world, Bill Gates, them being money-grubbing pigs, or your grandmother.
The reasoning is simple...under US intellectual property laws, if they are made aware that someone is distributing their intellectual property (like a ROM that contains MS software) and they make no attempt to stop it, they forfeit their rights to that intellectual property. I don't think I need to explain why giving up their rights would be a bad idea for them.
In my experience, companies try to ignore sites like this for as long as they possibly can, because nobody wants to attract the kind of bad press a takedown notice causes. Inevitably, however, things get too big...a site gets a mention in the news, or it becomes the defacto source for ROMs, or it gets frequent mentions in other forums like cingular.com, and the attorneys finally have to face the fact that they can't possibly claim in court that they weren't aware that their IP was being distributed.
All companies do things like this every day to a lot of great sites and forums, not because they are jerks, but because the US legal system requires them to.
In the meantime, we just have to move on and do what everyone else does--find somewhere else to keep the bits
The reasoning is simple...under US intellectual property laws, if they are made aware that someone is distributing their intellectual property (like a ROM that contains MS software) and they make no attempt to stop it, they forfeit their rights to that intellectual property. I don't think I need to explain why giving up their rights would be a bad idea for them.
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Actually that's completely untrue. I think you're thinking of trademarks which do behave in that way. That was the reason for the necessary recent legal cases by Linus over the Linux trademark. There's no such requirement for copyrights or patents.
Not being on the inside it's hard to know the reason for the action: Whether it's the OEM's complaining. I think their logic is that if they only provide updates with new hardware then you'll have no choice but to buy their new hardware. and that people making updates for their older devices are harming their sales figures. they really are that dumb.
The alternative is that MS are annoyed/worried about all the information leaking about WM6 before launch and they simply want to control the release situation.
ivorh said:
Actually that's completely untrue. I think you're thinking of trademarks which do behave in that way. That was the reason for the necessary recent legal cases by Linus over the Linux trademark. There's no such requirement for copyrights or patents.
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Not quite...the nature in which you forfeit rights is different between copyrights and trademarks, but due diligence is required for both. If a known copyright infringement is not pursued within the statute of limitations, implied license is granted, meaning the infringer can essentially distribute at will.
ivorh said:
Actually that's completely untrue. I think you're thinking of trademarks which do behave in that way. That was the reason for the necessary recent legal cases by Linus over the Linux trademark. There's no such requirement for copyrights or patents.
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Not quite...the nature in which you forfeit rights is different between copyrights and trademarks, but due diligence is required for both. If a known copyright infringement is not pursued within the statute of limitations, implied license is granted.
No offence guys but Microsoft or the Vendors wouldn't have given crap about the roms here if it wasn't for the idiots (yes you know who you are) pestering the vendors and Microsoft about support for yet to be released roms. Either bugging them with questions on why something doesn't work anymore, how to use something in the new rom (GPS....), or warrenty repair for f'ing up one's device. Not to mention how pissed they must be for the even bigger idiots who contact Vender A and tell them they installed Vendor A rom on Vender B device
Really what it comes down to is if it costs them money they are going to make a stink and handling service calls for hacked/unsupported roms costs them money. Not to mention how much it would piss off Vendor A to spend money enhancing their rom only to have news sites promoting the rom to other Vendor B devices and have people installing it on Vendor B's device.
That's really what this is all about so if there is anyone to blame in all this, don't blame Microsoft or the Vendors, blame those people because if it wasn't for them, the vendors and Microsoft would have given a sh*t and probably just let things be the way they should be.
Maybe an appropriate response would be to overwhelm MS and the Carriers support systems with complaints about slow, non functioning, unstable software and devices.
The Carriers who actually sell most of us our phones should be ashamed of offering such substandard products. The diference between an "XDA-Developers sourced ROM" and the stock ROM on my device at least is enormous. Yet it was achieved by unpaid amateurs, I mean no disrespect to ROM chefs with this statement.
With the Windows update features built in to WM6 maybe there is a mechanism for MS to offer timely updates/fixes direct to the user. These updates could have incorporated "XDA-Developers" inspired enhancements and bug fixes. Sadly I feel this will not now be the case.
Yes, I can understand the global motives of MS in protecting its intelectual property but I cannot perceive any benefit to MS by exerting its right/might in this case.
</RANT>
Related
Just read another post where it was mentioned that technically the different ROM versions floating around on the site are illegal.
And WM6 for free? I'd say that's piracy. You do pay for at least to upgrade from Windows XP to Vista?
When you buy a new computer that comes with an OS, you can't assume that you are entitled for a free upgrade
to OS when ever one is released.
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In some sense I can see that this might be true! after all, its well known that this site won't tolerate warez... but its fine for beta/non-beta ROMS to be cooked and made freely available to anyone with compatible devices...
Don't get me wrong... I'm all for it and envy all of our cooks - if I could understand how to do it I would!!! I'm just wondering what the true legalities are?
Please don't shoot me
lots of views on the matter here
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=294142&highlight=legal
"And WM6 for free? I'd say that's piracy. You do pay for at least to upgrade from Windows XP to Vista?"
this statement is not really true because ms sell vista and vista upgrades
nor ms or htc or any of the OEM's of the htc devices have ever sold upgrades ms stay out of it 100% htc (pre them selling themselfs) always just made basis roms and given them to the operators to customize and give users free
If it is being sold and we used it without buying, that's illegal, just like the computer situation.
In PPC situation, how can it be legal or illegal when it is not sold in the first place?
"True" legalities are simple: M$ has copyright on this material so though I am not a legal expert of any kind I am sure they will have no trouble proving in court that even simple redistribution of ROMs without any alteration by a non authorized party such as this site is illegal.
Then again, since neither M$ nor the OEMs (not jut HTC) don't bother with updates unless a given device is really unstable so they need to fix some bugs and you can never by a newer OS even if your device supports it I thinks this is basically "fare use".
After all it is a dirty commercial trick to force people to by new hardware at ridiculous prices just to keep the software up to date.
CWKJ said:
In PPC situation, how can it be legal or illegal when it is not sold in the first place?
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Violating patents is illegal,while they are not sold. Violating GPL is illegal, while the product covered by GPL is free. So "not sold" means nothing.
You might know that in modern world nobody sells software itself. They sell or give away licenses on its use. When you buy such a software, it is written on the envelope: "By opening blah-blah-blah" and you accept the license this way. It is not a case with my TyTN! I didn't have to accept a license before starting to use the software. Same with firmware of several devices on the market.
If there are no any contractual relationships between me and the owner of the rights on this software, I violate nothing by using it on a way of my choice.
Well, stolen betas is of different kind: the person who first started to distributed it violated NDA or something like. It is known. So I can't disagree it's illegal.
When you download a firmware update from the vendor, you amy have to accept a license. If you have done, then cooking from it may be illegal.
But I see nothing illegal when no an agreement was accepted.
I think the answer is not quite as simple. Is it legal? Well, technically it is not.
A lot of copyright law could and would defend this point.
However in this world of ours, not everything is about the law. Especially when money is involved.
Having MS and HTC simply say that if you want to taste WM6 that you have to buy a new gadget is not illegal. In fact as the owners and the licenser this is completely their right to do. Sh!tty? Sure! But why not? It is their right, and for us to use WM6 because we don't want to pay does NOT make it right.
The fact of the matter is the number of users who will be upgrading to WM6 through cooked ROMs is rather small and honestly not worth their trouble.
They know most people will buy the software legally. They know that most of their serious buyers will be corporations who will buy it legally. AND ultimately, they WANT people to work and spread their software as much as possible.
Sure they are loosing money doing that --very little in the large scheme of things-- but ultimately, they win because they (US) spread knowledge and we create future customers. Since eventually most of us will upgrade hardware and if when we do, we will most likely stick with WM rather than lets say go to Nokia's Symbian.
They are not stupid and this is why they have not tried to shut down XDA Developers outright for even hosting ROM cookers who are obviously working on leaked versions of their software.
the only skin of htc and ms's nose is that people may not replace their phones as fast
but then same would be true for pc's if they too were made not to have os upgraded
operators like orange and tmobile and the likes could not care less
sim unlocking a phone harm them much much more since that imply that you will stop using the service that they make money on
An interesting historical fact: back when home computer was a new concept and Apple and IBM just began their competition Apple made a tactical mistake: They prevented others from duplicating the BIOS of their machines (I don't remember if this was a legal or technical issue, it's been a while since I saw the documentary). They still do it afaik.
The result: "IBM compatible" clones popped up all over the place at a much cheaper prices then the original (in fact who owns "real" IBM today anyway?) which caused the PC architecture to spread and made MACs an endangered species.
It is the same with (desktop) windows: because there are so many cracked versions floating around ever since 3.11 (maybe even before) it gained so much popularity it became almost standard.
So basically M$ owns their success to piracy. After all some people will not by their crap - if they can't get it for free they will use something else, while the major customers (namely corporations, public facilities etc.) would still purchase it legally even if there were no protection measures.
P.S.
agovinoveritas: if you check the 'About' icon in your control panel you will find a nice fat copyright statement. And as copyrights are something you agree to automatically by using a software product (no need to sing / click or even have a warning on the box) MS still has a way of telling you what you can and can not do with the ROM of your device.
MS don't even need that copyright statement. Copyright isn't something that needs to be asserted, it exists regardless.
levenum said:
agovinoveritas: if you check the 'About' icon in your control panel you will find a nice fat copyright statement. And as copyrights are something you agree to automatically by using a software product (no need to sing / click or even have a warning on the box) MS still has a way of telling you what you can and can not do with the ROM of your device.
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Yes, old news. Everybody who is a tech-head in here knows this. But how is that relevant to my statements?
For those savvy people, you know that by the mere fact that you created something, technically you are protected by intellectual copyright law.
However we are drifting from the main point.
i mean, everything on this site is pretty much microsoft, which should create some copyright issues.
they are just happy to find a place where winmo doesn't get bashed constantly
duude said:
i mean, everything on this site is pretty much microsoft, which should create some copyright issues.
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LOL, your first post and you have a pop at this site?
You dont work for MS do you
GREAT first post.
anyway.
They tolerate it because we don't personally host anything and yes, we do make windows mobile better.
Also, this site actively opposes software theft, (warez and others like it,) which is the bulk of any copyright problems. It spreads goodwill towards Microsoft, believe it or not; if users have problems with standard Microsoft software, they don't have to just sit there and be unhappy, it can be tweaked. By doing so, people are happier with their Microsoft-driven equipment, and more likely to keep using it than changing to something else. There are countless people on this site who would tell you that without this site, they might not be using a Windows-driven phone.
It is also free tech-support for Microsoft, which saves them loads of money.
LOL duude...are u an attorney or do u own an iphone?
m$ knows better to keep this site alive. its their faults we are tweakin up and makin it better. beside...you never know...this draws a lot and i mean a lot of ppl towards m$. so i m pretty much sure the revenue keeps em' happy
yesod7 said:
There are countless people on this site who would tell you that without this site, they might not be using a Windows-driven phone
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One here!!!
microsoft never sold wm to any end user
and this site never taken part in porting wm to a device that dident came with it
more because of the close to impossibility of doing so
so as ms still get their licensense from the manufactors
and better rep with users who can get more out of their devices then just
depending on what the manfucators give before they forget about older devices
and move on to their new stuff
more wm phone owners keep getting new wm devices rather then moving to iphones or symbian devices so
it helps ms out alot in their quest of getting a larger % of the market
Plus, along with the free tech ehlp, the improving of current phones, we all know new htc phones will be tweaked cooked and stuff, so buy another phone. so XDA not only saves tehm money, but actually gains them money
It's because of this site that I'm looking at the Windows Mobile platform for my next phone rather than traditional Nokia, Sony Ericsson (other than x1), or even the iPhone..... actually come to think of it, without the exisitence of this site EVER, I would get an iPhone 3G right away.
you will see that in the coming future microsoft will be incorporating programs and devs that were created through this site to their platform. There was once a time when microsoft tried to shut it down when they realised that the site actually brings more people to microsoft and keeps them there.
LOL! I was going to post something else, but I'm pretty sure everybody has already said it, or thinks it! To much good comes from this site! Think about it, how many users of this site are now WM users for good and will always be sold on the next best WM platform because of this site.
yesod7 said:
Also, this site actively opposes software theft, (warez and others like it,) which is the bulk of any copyright problems. It spreads goodwill towards Microsoft, believe it or not; if users have problems with standard Microsoft software, they don't have to just sit there and be unhappy, it can be tweaked. By doing so, people are happier with their Microsoft-driven equipment, and more likely to keep using it than changing to something else. There are countless people on this site who would tell you that without this site, they might not be using a Windows-driven phone.
It is also free tech-support for Microsoft, which saves them loads of money.
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Yup, that's it.
TheChampJT said:
LOL! I was going to post something else, but I'm pretty sure everybody has already said it, or thinks it! To much good comes from this site! Think about it, how many users of this site are now WM users for good and will always be sold on the next best WM platform because of this site.
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Amen to that!
Why haven't they done anything?
because nobody there is smoking crack
Would you close down a site that gets people talking about your products ? that is full of people writing programs that enhances the usability of your products? that's a great place to see some ideas you might steal for later versions of your OS.
This is free R&D!
duude said:
i mean, everything on this site is pretty much microsoft, which should create some copyright issues.
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Alas, I saw this differently with others. I think the question is very out of topic since this is an All-HTC-Devices forum, not an M$ WM forum. It's only 'coincidence' that after these years, HTC always used WM as their OS.
If HTC decided in the future that they will build their own OS, or maybe use Android, then it may trigger M$ to reconsider its stance against this forum. Especially, when we -as always- try to improve our experience with the devices, do it by porting some parts (drivers/softwares) from WM to other OS, or vice versa. Then the issue may be valid.
Btw, I don't know but do you all think it's safe -legally and/or morally- to port other vendor/ODM's part (drivers/softwares/etc) into our HTC devices? I ask this because I saw many attempts already...
I don't know the exact number of people on this site, but I do know that there are a whole lot of people on this site. My point for that last sectence is "would you destroy a site that has FREE workers helping your company out to better there products and gain more money"
Yes, we might receive applications before they are release, but honestly where do you really think we receive those from uuuummmm?
So again, if I was a big company I would never touch this site because I will pass my software to this site let eveyone play with it and then I would know where all the bugs are at. So then I will fix it and then sale it.
There might be alot of poeple on this site but I think MS has a lot more customers that don't even know that this site is even alive.
There you go my 2 cents.
gsessons said:
I don't know the exact number of people on this site, but I do know that there are a whole lot of people on this site. My point for that last sectence is "would you destroy a site that has FREE workers helping your company out to better there products and gain more money"
Yes, we might receive applications before they are release, but honestly where do you really think we receive those from uuuummmm?
So again, if I was a big company I would never touch this site because I will pass my software to this site let eveyone play with it and then I would know where all the bugs are at. So then I will fix it and then sale it.
There might be alot of poeple on this site but I think MS has a lot more customers that don't even know that this site is even alive.
There you go my 2 cents.
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and if the truth be known, they (M$) are happy that the masses dont know., in truth, the people on this site contain more knowledge and expertise than all of m$ combined as far as HTC handsets are concerned and how to tweak and tune the software to ACTUALLY work. it could be perceived as (truth) the Big companies are just mass clearing houses of useless data they can sell for a profit. how many of us came here for the first time only looking for useable software programs? how many of us came here for the first time trying to find a solution to an OEM problem?
M$ has found a truly unique forum in the world of r&d., although probably more out of frustration than than anything else, the majority of talented people here could teach this stuff to most of the employees at m$ about these devices and how they work and why.
I would be very surprised if they didnt have a staff of several people working there monitoring and testing to roms and software packages developed or tweaked through this site. they would have to be unbelieveably arrogant to think this is a bad thing for business, and we all know who one of the richest men and companies in the world is dont we. he didnt just fall off the truck so to speak, he understands..............economics!
With all of that in mind can anyone understand why pocket development is not possible on Visual studio express editions (free).
Isn't that a shoot on the foot? I think so.
I think that a platform with a lot of developers is much more appeling, and then seel more. Only a opinion from someone that will never buy a iphone.
Finally today i had enough... I filed a formal complaint with the FTC against motorola and all other mobile device manufacturers out lining the cause and effect of these companies selling us devices that we are made to be only users of rather than owners and administrators the devices we purchased. Nothing will change until we make some one step in and set the rules, i am encouraging everyone here on xda to do the same ... here is a link to the example complaint i filed and the link to the appropriate form to be filed
http://t0dbld.blogspot.com/2011/03/m...otloaders.html
https://www.ftccomplaintassistant.go...d.aspx?Lang=en
Here's some more food for though concerning smartphone security:
http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2011/03/carrier-intransigence-harms-internet-security
Perhaps we can spin our complaint with this in mind.
Basically since smartphones are essentially computers, I feel we should insist on being able to do what we want with them - Dell, HP, etc can't object when I choose to replace Windows on my PC with Linux, neither should Moto, HTC, etc be able to determine what we can and cannot run.
Also, if my phone has HDMI out, I can easily envision using it as a media player long after it's served its time as a phone.
IMO, people would be far better off signing this petition which will be presented to Motorola to try and persuade them to change their bootloader policies as they have previously promised to do.
It is a direct request to the one organisation who can change the matters for the better - Motorola themselves.
And unlike this thread, it doesn't rely upon subjective argument of entitlement.
Step666 said:
IMO, people would be far better off signing this petition which will be presented to Motorola to try and persuade them to change their bootloader policies as they have previously promised to do.
It is a direct request to the one organisation who can change the matters for the better - Motorola themselves.
And unlike this thread, it doesn't rely upon subjective argument of entitlement.
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first of all is there any harm in both ? secondly i respectfully disagree, some one needs to be put in charge of these things and so far the only thing that governs tech is law suits, as noted above HP did loose to FTC when they tried to deny people from not using windows on there machines, also petitions although the preferred method of hippies and college students do not hold there weight in most courts, i do know from personal exp. as if you really wish i can show you my supreme court case in the state of Michigan and yes years prior we started with a neighborhood petition that didn't even hold up in the local commissions and courts. either way i have signed said petition but i feel that if we get the FTC involved it will help the Petition as eyes will be upon it.... ALSO please keep in mind this is not just motorola they just happen to be better than other companies, jsut like computers we should not have to hack anything for administrator privileges, or to wipe the device and load are own software
But on what grounds would the FTC uphold your complaint?
Just because jailbreaking etc is not illegal, that doesn't give you a right to be able to install custom ROMs onto your handset, nor does it automatically make the measures that companies like Motorola take to prevent modification of their handsets illegal.
You say that the FTC ruled against HP for preventing laptop owners from installing Linux - how come when I Google 'FTC HP Linux', I find nothing relating to that?
Step666 said:
But on what grounds would the FTC uphold your complaint?
Just because jailbreaking etc is not illegal, that doesn't give you a right to be able to install custom ROMs onto your handset, nor does it automatically make the measures that companies like Motorola take to prevent modification of their handsets illegal.
You say that the FTC ruled against HP for preventing laptop owners from installing Linux - how come when I Google 'FTC HP Linux', I find nothing relating to that?
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this is not about jail breaking and if you make it about such it will not get looked at, this is about being sold a device that we are not given administrative right to or the ability to wipe and install any software we want on it.... You wouldn't stand for this on your home pc would you ?
Because the ruling was not about linux, it was about being forced to have windows and paying for the licensing, it became much bigger than just hp as well but it is there including the end results of hp having to offer it with out windows and to refund people's money that did not agree to windows terms and returned the license
t0dbld said:
this is about being sold a device that we are not given administrative right to or the ability to wipe and install any software we want on it...
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Right, ok, fine.
But that detail aside, my question still remains unanswered - why would they rule in your favour on that basis?
In what way are you entitled to be able to completely wipe your phone and install whatever you want onto it?
t0dbld said:
Because the ruling was not about linux, it was about being forced to have windows and paying for the licensing, it became much bigger than just hp as well but it is there including the end results of hp having to offer it with out windows and to refund people's money that did not agree to windows terms and returned the license
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That's different then - it's one thing for HP to force customers to pay the licence fee for a copy of Windows they don't need/want but no-one is being forced to pay for an Android licence here, Motorola et al's practices are not costing the end user money.
I'm just trying to understand why you believe the FTC would consider your complaint, let alone side against the manufacturers.
look dude your still not getting it and thats ok, do it or dont, try to help or dont, have a good day
only a matter of time b4 these guys realize locked bootloaders dont help any1..
We all know Microsoft is on a roll to make patent licensing agreements with Android OEMs. Since last week, Microsoft have announced 4 such deals without disclosing the amount of royalty involved. Today Reuters that Microsoft is demanding about $15 per Android device from Samsung, one of the largest android OEM in the world. Microsoft is also ready to lower the royalty amount if Samsung agrees with some deeper alliance related to Windows Phone smartphone making. Microsoft signed similar deal with HTC last year, Will Samsung also join the fray soon? I hope Samsung agrees with Microsoft on the later deal of less royalty amount for Android devices and more Windows Phone smartphones. Also analysts predict Samsung to ship about 19 million smartphones this quarter, if the deal is done Microsoft will get about $1 Billion IP licensing revenue from Samsung alone in a year...
Now that is a beautiful puzzle, they've already released the most user friendly and in my opinion best is on the market and now they're putting a squeeze on the big name android OEMs to eliminate some of the competition. I love this, now just throw in some good marketing and well have the trifecta of a perfect operating system.
Leave it to Microsoft to try to take over! Company wars are so much more exciting than politics lol. Can't wait to see how this race produces!
Eh, they want their piece of the pie and if someone was using my tech to make money I would too.
They'll just weigh up the balance between paying a small amount to make a phone that will actually sell running a decent OS, or the costs of developing the minimum number of WP7 handsets to sit unsold in a warehouse while paying a smaller amount to make a phone that will actually sell running a decent OS.
It's a bit like supermarkets and loss leaders, will the loss on WP7 be less than the gain on paying not quite as much to make Android handsets that actually sell.
z33dev33l said:
Eh, they want their piece of the pie and if someone was using my tech to make money I would too.
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What tech did MS actually contribute to Android? Or better asked: What unique tech worthy of a patent did MS come up with? Most of these patents fall into the category where every even remotely seasoned developer can come up with the stuff. Of course we can't know for sure, because MS never actually discloses which patents are involved here. Because they know full well it wouldn't stand up to public scrutiny.
And that's assuming software patents make sense in the first place. Which they don't.
They really don't but hey, I don't make those rules. It doesn't matter who can make it now, it's who created it first.
xaccers, you're fighting a losing battle, I'm just going to sit idly by and watch my OS actually improve rather than pallet swap, man I love being lag free.
z33dev33l said:
They really don't but hey, I don't make those rules.
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So you just accept the rules, no matter what they are. The abuse of the legal system (attack smaller firms who don't have the resources to fight first in order to create a precedent), the mafia-style protection racket (pay up or else), the obviousness of the patents, the very ridiculousness of even having software patents, all that is ok. Because the rules are the rules, right?
z33dev33l said:
man I love being lag free.
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So do I dude, so do I. Though I must say, that is some very, very narrow criteria for choosing an entire operating system.
Gusar321 said:
So you just accept the rules, no matter what they are. The abuse of the legal system (attack smaller firms who don't have the resources to fight first in order to create a precedent), the mafia-style protection racket, the obviousness of the patents, the very ridiculousness of even having software patents, all that is ok. Because the rules are the rules, right?
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In cases where I think the rules are not too far fetched. I mean hell, if they did it first they have a right. As far as google not having the resources that's their own fault, iOS just did it first because they run their company with force rather than being laid back and just stealing info
Gusar321 said:
So do I dude, so do I. Though I must say, that is some very, very narrow criteria for choosing an entire operating system.
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Not at all but it certainly helps, I like having a phone that does everything I want without having to install any apps at all and without having to flash a new rom every 2-3 days. I love xbox live, I love a well implemented office, I love the keyboard, I love that the DVP despite it's weak processor is the most impressive piece of hardware out there for mobile devices, I like the hubs, I like zune, there's just nothing wrong with all of it. It is not flawless, but it's as close as a mobile OS comes.
z33dev33l said:
In cases where I think the rules are not too far fetched.
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You can't honestly believe that they aren't far fetched in this case.
Do you know why patents were created for? And what they're used for in reality nowadays? And in particular the nature of software patents? If you really believe what you just wrote, the clear answer to those questions is "no".
z33dev33l said:
if they did it first they have a right
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But what exactly is it that they did first? It's like I said, trivial things that any seasoned developer can come up with. Being the first to wrap it up in tons of legalese to be granted a patent on it is not an admirable achievement. Patents only make sense for things that are unique, where it took a lot of effort to come up with something new.
z33dev33l said:
As far as google not having the resources that's their own fault
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That's just the thing, MS *didn't* attack Google. They attacked small companies releasing Android products. HTC was the biggest and now Samsung is even bigger. But they're taking on Samsung only after the precedent was set with the smaller companies. That's abuse of the legal system.
z33dev33l said:
Not at all but it certainly helps, I like having a phone that does everything I want without having to install any apps at all and without having to flash a new rom every 2-3 days.
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Wow, hyperbole much? I have all that on Android. And I'm not flashing every two days. That I choose to replace some apps with other ones was just that - my choice. Choice is good. It means competition. It means people vying to create the best music player, the best video player, the best... well, you get the picture.
And what do you know, I have the lag-free interface too.
I guess if your product can't compete on its own merits, this is one way to go about it.
GnatGoSplat said:
I guess if your product can't compete on its own merits, this is one way to go about it.
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If more of the community was more intelligent then Microsoft would have no issues, sadly it's not the case. No one does their research or looks into a phone before buying it. The majority of sales reps have never even used a windows phone 7 thanks to the plague that was winmo.
z33dev33l said:
If more of the community was more intelligent then Microsoft would have no issues, sadly it's not the case. No one does their research or looks into a phone before buying it. The majority of sales reps have never even used a windows phone 7 thanks to the plague that was winmo.
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I know a lot of WP7 enthusiasts and blogs like to blame the sales reps, but I don't think sales reps are solely responsible for the 36% market gap.
I do have an HTC Surround I've been playing with, and you're right, it has no lag, but I honestly haven't seen anything that would make me choose it over iOS or Android. Probably the only thing I would miss is the cool XBox Live avatar guy I made.
GnatGoSplat said:
I know a lot of WP7 enthusiasts and blogs like to blame the sales reps, but I don't think sales reps are solely responsible for the 36% market gap.
I do have an HTC Surround I've been playing with, and you're right, it has no lag, but I honestly haven't seen anything that would make me choose it over iOS or Android. Probably the only thing I would miss is the cool XBox Live avatar guy I made.
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I guess it's to each their own. I like functionality, a smooth UI, and hardware selection. The office and xbox programs on mango are great, overall I think the only reason I ever enjoyed android was because I got to spend so much time screwing around.
z33dev33l said:
I guess it's to each their own. I like functionality, a smooth UI, and hardware selection. The office and xbox programs on mango are great, overall I think the only reason I ever enjoyed android was because I got to spend so much time screwing around.
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Don't underestimate how much people like to screw around. I think that's the whole reason XDA exists in the first place.
A lot of people are surprised Microsoft is doing this, but truth be told this is nothing new. Intel licenses out their instruction sets such as sse2, sse3, 3D Now! to Amd, nvidia, and Via. Companies do this all the time.
I wanted to like Microsoft, because hey, that's where all my stuff is (I'm an MS developer by trade as well). BUT, they fell short. Waaay short. Navigation, Voice commands, multitasking, the list was endless.
I have a few XBoxes and almost everything in my house is Windows based, but the phone won't sell me until I can firmly say: "I miss nothing on Android that I use every day."
I have searched all over the internet and there is no article that explains exactly WHY and HOW could MS collect Royalities from EVERY single company that putts Google's Operating system into their devices. and not just any amount, but 5-10$ from every sold device!?!
Could someone explain to me why ? How is it that Microsoft is earning billions from something that is not theirs .. ? And as I read in one article - they didnt even pull up the lawsuit, they are just threatening with words, and everyone agrees (HTC, LG, Samsung, EVERYONE!)
WHAT has MS made, that Android copied, and that it belongs into MS's patent claims .. ?
And, what on earth is Google doing about that ?
Igoritza said:
I have searched all over the internet and there is no article that explains exactly WHY and HOW could MS collect Royalities from EVERY single company that putts Google's Operating system into their devices. and not just any amount, but 5-10$ from every sold device!?!
Could someone explain to me why ? How is it that Microsoft is earning billions from something that is not theirs .. ? And as I read in one article - they didnt even pull up the lawsuit, they are just threatening with words, and everyone agrees (HTC, LG, Samsung, EVERYONE!)
WHAT has MS made, that Android copied, and that it belongs into MS's patent claims .. ?
And, what on earth is Google doing about that ?
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Short answer: the patent system is broken, at least with regards to software. You can patent any stupidly obvious or generic idea ("slide to unlock") and the patent office, which makes money off these, will probably accept it.
(Indeed, there was an accepted 1996 patent on using a laser pointer to play with a cat. Go figure.)
Thus, companies like microsoft spam ideas into the patent office. And the patents are taken seriously enough that many companies would rather settle than take the risk of having their products blocked.
Android didn't necessarily "steal" anything; our patent system doesn't give a crap. See, patents were originally supposed to spread out the technical specifications of an idea, in order to spread the knowhow. The problem is, where it comes to software, the technical specification is so tied in to the idea itself that they're pretty much one and the same. Effectively, you're patenting ideas, and the broken patent system now punishes others for coming up with similar ideas. There's an entire literature on the brokenness, if you google around.
As for google itself, I'm not sure they are doing anything. They bought Motorola, but that might've been to protect themselves. If they have a plan for protecting their OS' manufacturers, it's not very obvious at all.
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TLDR: HTC, Samsung, etc being punished by a broken protectionist system. The only way around it is really to get rid of the system itself.
Ultimately, the users are the ones who suffer from having to pay the costs of all this litigation, but this is probably more a long-term than a short-term effect. For example, $5 of royalties will probably not make a phone go from $699.99 to $704.99. Rather, the effect is less money going into R&D all around, and more going into lawyers' pockets. So as a user, if a phone costs $650 or $600, that's just how much it costs.. for now.
So, basically, this is a Game of US companies and imprinting their legal system on the rest of the world .. ? .. ? Cause, I dont see anyone from the rest of the world getting anything extra .. ? Damn, someone needs to remove that continent from this planet.
But, WHAT is in the core of the Android so that MS gets their share .. ? I understand how HTC Sense may be connected to some of the early WM5 stuff, but what about the rest .. ? they CANT patent almost everything, or do they .. ? And as I figured out, most of the patented stuff is GUI, that is ridiculous!
MS don't collect from every android manufacturer, just some. Basically they claim google infringe on their patents and went to manufacturers saying "pay us or we sue you" but afaik no one knows what patents are infringed and I think Barnes and Noble told them to politely get lost so not sure how they fared but it shows not all say yes. Unfortunately ms have good lawyers that seem very persuasive.
Dave
Sent from my LG P920 using Tapatalk
Just found out everything:
It is true, that few people know what is the actual deal. Google has sucessfully defended themselves from Oracle that claimed several patents, and purchase of Motorola from google is actually a defence mechanism cause Motorolla holds over 17.000 patents (W T F!!!!!) God knows how many Microsoft is holding, and how ridiculous those patents are being that they have much more than Motorola.
No one is considering abandoning Android cause that system actually made their devices popular, but still they all have a problem with MS blackmailing them. HTC made a boom, but they are still a small Taiwanese company that struggles all around (not getting Hanstar IPS pannels cause Apple ordered more, not getting Gorilla cause Apple and samsung ordered more, and so on) .. so the 5$ toll is pretty big number for HTC phones, and they are the ones that are in the biggest problem right now (not talking about smaller players in the game)
Damn you USA and your laws. Pizza is a vegetable, Kinder surprise is banned cause stupid american children would eat the toy. and Microsoft somehow owns Google's Android.
I think the better question is, what has google come up with themselves rather than buying or stealing it?
z33dev33l said:
I think the better question is, what has google come up with themselves rather than buying or stealing it?
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Why would they, if they can just take what everyone else is doing and put it mostly into one system they will never need to come up with any original ideas. Heck look at iOS5 and what they put into it. They added (just to name a few)
1. icloud (in essence a play on windows cloud service with their windows phone devices of cloud storage. the exception is this syncs with other ios devices but a play on microsofts idea)
2. draggable notification bar (android has had this forever now. The difference, on ios you can get a stock ticker and weather instead of just your notifications.)
3. imessage (Blackberry Messenger for ios basically)
4. OTA updates (blackberry and android both used this before apple)
5. wifi syncing (I know windows had this in their windows phone 7 devices not sure of any others that had this feature before kies air in samsung.)
6. Reminders, see reminders by date (a lot of the widgets on android let you do this without even having to open the calendar app)
that's just to name a few and just to show every company does it, even someone as big as apple does it. If you come up with your own that's great but people don't take to it as well as something they have already had. For instance if you had android and apple wants you to come over to apple they are gonna give you the things you love about android most like draggable notifications, wifi hotspot, etc. There is no need for originality anymore. That is just what this world has come to.
z33dev33l said:
I think the better question is, what has google come up with themselves rather than buying or stealing it?
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Why is that the question. Or are you suggesting that android is simply copied and stolen from others work?
Dave
Sent from my LG P920 using Tapatalk
z33dev33l said:
I think the better question is, what has google come up with themselves rather than buying or stealing it?
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What .. ? U serious .. ?
Man, copyright infringement these days is ridiculous, there is NO possible way to make anything "new" if you take that seriously, as it seems that american courts do.
It goes to the extent that almost anything can be patented, so that literally any rectangle shaped phone with TS could be patented by one company and so, baned for the rest. LG/Apple actually tried that (prada/iPhone) even though Eten, HTC (former Qtek) and HP already had PDA's with SIM functions much before that.
Android was developed before iOS (starting in 2005, already co-signed by 86 companies) and released in 2007, so there is no place for ripping off Apple. And, exept for the simultaneous development of iOS and Android which have similarities, I myself as a tech-geek and user of electronics, do not see ANY similarities of ANY android feature with ANY of the MS products and I had the chance to use them all - Windows versions on mobile and desktop machines. in terms of GUI and in terms of understanding how stuff works under the hood.
Im surely not able to understand 30k+ patents that MS holds, but that is not normal, that is more of a world sociology problem, rather than an actual technical one. that is retarded.
Igoritza said:
What .. ? U serious .. ?
Man, copyright infringement these days is ridiculous, there is NO possible way to make anything "new" if you take that seriously, as it seems that american courts do. .
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This is exactly on the dot. The way people have been duped into thinking that any sort of resemblance is "stealing" is actually sad.
And, unusually enough for z33, actually related to the topic. This entire ridiculous regime exists precisely because people are so ridiculously overprotective of their own ideas (or the ideas of whichever-team-you're-a-fanboi-of) while rationalizing their own copying of ideas from other people. The fact is, this copying is necessary because innovation does not exist in a vacuum, and yet we still react as stupid little apes when it comes to be our turn.
Sent from my Terran Command Center.
Well, this is how the system works. It's not about anything true, just what you can prove to be true.
There even exist companies that have the sole purpose of buying patents and using those patents to sue other companies!
In terms of the mobile industry, in case you didn't know, it is currently one of the hottest arenas in terms of patent lawsuits.
Here is a nice graphic: http://flowingdata.com/2011/08/22/mobile-patent-lawsuits-2/