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Reminder about XDA

OK so i know this is the wrong forum, BUT I came across this and wanted to "bump" it so to speak. This was posted by kyphur in 08 and in a mods sig now. Please read and adhere to the spirit of the post. It is RIGHT ON!!!
I think what a lot of people forget is that this is not a "make my phone neat & kewl" place.
As implied by the name this is technically a Developers forum/community.
Now what does that mean? Well first off it means that there is an expectation that if you are here then you want to customize your device but rather than just installing something that someone packaged you want to understand how it works and maybe even enhance it yourself.
When I first came here with a Blue Angel it was a different environment. PDA Phones were not embraced by the general public because of the expense and complexity (I paid over $400 for my BA). A $400 phone 4 years ago was expensive, today the Tilt is $300 after rebates but with inflation & the rise in the cost of other devices and the fact that there are other sources out there giving them away for $150 our neat bit of kit has become popular with mainstream users.
Now we have a flood of new users who are asking not "How can I do this myself" but more like "Give me the quick fix" without caring to understand the process. See if you read the threads then you get to experience the learning process, you see how the issues were investigated and confirmed. Then you get to watch the different attempts at resolution and learn why some failed while others worked. That is called Development.
The NooB backlash is coming from users who have walked in the development shoes and is directed mainly at those who don't care for the journey but just want the end result or destination.
As a Development Forum we are just as much (if not more) about the journey. I've read so many comments like "I don't have time to read all of the threads" or "I don't care how it works, just that it does". These very statements are contrary to the heart & soul of XDA-Devs and that is why the backlash is so strong.
Let me be very clear on this: IF YOU DON'T CARE ABOUT UNDERSTANDING THE JOURNEY THEN YOU PROBABLY SHOULDN'T BE HERE IN THE FIRST PLACE.
XDA-Devs is about developers & hackers helping each other and working together to get the most out of our devices by understanding them better than most.
XDA-Devs is not about helping everyone who wants a "Kewl bit of kit" make their phone better than the guy next to him.
Now do we go kicking users off who never contribute anything, NO. We tolerate it to an extent. Where the toleration ends is when these users start diluting the usefulness of the forum by repeating the same questions over and over again.
You ask us to understand your position. Well if you want to benefit from our experience and time then I think it is only fair that you understand our position.

Maybe you can recommend an alternative site for people who just want the newest tweaks and software.

the idea is not that only developers should be looking at this site, but that this is a place where developers communicate with each other and the beneficiaries of their work. This is not the place for someone to post threads about general questions about how to use or mod their device. This is a place that will develop the capabilities of the android platform if it is allowed. Developers WILL abandon this forum if it becomes a bulletin board or a technical support site.....and if you need a question answered, there are other forums on THIS site to address those.

Agreed 100%. While developing for the Windows mobile, I also got the same thing. I would post a thread and WARN people of a certain things and tell them how to fix it. Then I'd get 30 pages of "geeze, you broke something. how do you fix it?" That gets annoying real fast. I would love it if this forum forced people to take a test before they could post in the development sections... Before that, they should only be able to post in the regular sections.
One thing that really bugs me is the fact that the newbs don't want to search but don't realize that they take OUR time to search FOR them. No one knows everything. Every developer on this site searches and learns. I know that if you put together all the time that I've spent on this site JUST researching and searching, it'd be MONTHS and MONTHS of non-stop, no sleep searching and researching. So why can't the average person search for 2 minutes? Is their time worth more than my time?
/rant - while talking on the phone so it might not make sense...

Pinesal said:
Maybe you can recommend an alternative site for people who just want the newest tweaks and software.
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There are thousands, but essentially all they do is copy stuff off here.
Like the post said, if you just want to root your phone so it can do 'cool stuff' and not give a **** about how the damn thing works then maybe you shouldn't be modding your phone (that wasn't aimed at you btw, just 'people' in general the market place is made up of 99% 'these people' who don't/can't read and it's pretty irritating.)
Agree with the post 100%, fantastic

we sadly are living in the (ME) world
there is such a huge gape beetween the 10-19 generation and 20-29
10-19 generation is living in such an easy world, they never had to blow into their nintendo cassettes , know how heavy a quantum bigfoot is or what RTFM mean's

You said it, this is in the wrong forum.
You're not an admin and although you can spend your time here (and pretty much all of your posts) reporting out-of-place threads, you're still not an admin.
People always wonder into communities and it always takes a while to learn the way things work. Mickey is doing a good job on closing and moving threads that are unrelated to development.
With that said...
Reported.

Agreed. It's really, really, really, really getting to me. I wish OP's had semi-moderator power. They could at least delete all necessary posts and ban that user - if required- for a certain amount of time from their thread only.

jubeh said:
You said it, this is in the wrong forum.
You're not an admin and although you can spend your time here (and pretty much all of your posts) reporting out-of-place threads, you're still not an admin.
People always wonder into communities and it always takes a while to learn the way things work. Mickey is doing a good job on closing and moving threads that are unrelated to development.
With that said...
Reported.
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ughh, no i'm not an admin, and no almost all my posts, or the majority, or a half are reported threads, but i do try to help out the mods when i can. they are not on all forums at all times and can use the help, and they have said as much.

Oh thank you thank you! People here should want to understand why thing the work as they work. Not just want their phones to look cool.

As it you wouldnt know it, i have been with xda for years well since the titan came out. before that i was modding an ipaq and of course the old palms. everyonce in awhile i lose interest and move on only to come back when i have something new(major a.d.d). i do write java as well as c and even c++(so on) i typically find this place useful to try stuff out and even set up my own custom rom just for me. i dont post because i can google. while i have many of my own questions i would like answered i simply dont ask most of the time(such as using micro kernels and modding app2sd to make the os have two options sd in or out. however the problem is not the generations or age difference or anything like that. its social systems outside of xda. posting a reply used to mean an answer or something useful. now its normal to simply post "great job". thats nice and all but maybe instead of complaining about it we should come up with a new system that improves xda. like a sorting system or sub thread system and set up catagorys for our replys. like thumbs up would be for the "good job". i know its hard to keep everyone happy but this is a forum first, a forum has design problems when you get the number of people xda has. use advanced search it helps a lot. a sorting system with requirements for certain catagorys would help devs. its not easy modding and getting it right and you cant do it alone. xda is the help even if its not your phone sometimes others have solutions too. such as winmo users putting android on their phones(yes i did it too my old titan for fun). things i learned and other devs learn can help us and vice versa. i have yet to find bad technology only poorly thought out ideas that could have been. which is why we mod.
p.s. wtf is up with palm and blackberry ads all the time.

Most of those kids just want the answer or fix in the next 3min. with perfect steps or a patch that supposedly will fix and hack their device,after that they´ll never show up.
All they want is to show off without bothering to read.

I totaly understand. I do feel sometimes that certain devs do get a bit annoyed with people who just want to fix the phone and not understand. I'm not linux or coding wiz. But whe I got here in may I was one of the people who just wanted me phone to be better than urs. I still have that to some extent but I have developed more of a "how and what is causeing this issue" attitude. I try to contribute as best as I can. Helping out over at q&a as best as I can. I enjoy xda and without my days would be more boring than what the are now. I dunno I guess I'm just rambling. Bottom line is I have tried to correct my attitude toward modding. Hell I even post my email so users can drop a line if they need help.

i am 20 and i fondly remember blowing into my nes super nes and genesis games.

i am pretty new to XDA. when i first found this site all i wanted was a quick fix. now i am getting more intrested in the actual dev aspect. i want to be able to create my own rom eventualy. yes i do find myself asking stupid questions and getting some foul responses but in my opinion no question is a stupid one. only the one not asked. yes alot of people just want a fix but there are new users who want to learn. like me. so i appreciate the help i have recieved from most members. and i alwasy appoligise for my stupidity. so dont get down on all noobs because alot of us want to learn and the only way to is to ask.

saprano614 said:
i am pretty new to XDA. when i first found this site all i wanted was a quick fix. now i am getting more intrested in the actual dev aspect. i want to be able to create my own rom eventualy. yes i do find myself asking stupid questions and getting some foul responses but in my opinion no question is a stupid one. only the one not asked. yes alot of people just want a fix but there are new users who want to learn. like me. so i appreciate the help i have recieved from most members. and i alwasy appoligise for my stupidity. so dont get down on all noobs because alot of us want to learn and the only way to is to ask.
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nobody is getting down on noobs. ONLY the site users who FAIL to post questions and general comments in the correct forum

jaaronmoody said:
nobody is getting down on noobs. ONLY the site users who FAIL to post questions and general comments in the correct forum
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Just want to make a statement befor someone did.

I thank you for this post. I came to this forum a long time ago I have learned quite a bit and appreciate everything that is done here. There are very skillful people that are on here and I wish I had the amount of skill then thesemodders, hackers, developers etc... have I keep my mouth shut unless i feel there is some thing that i know how to answer, i have never complained about a single rom i simply research what can be done to change for fix it, all answers rely in a search somewhere either here or google. I just wish other people would do the same then we would be able to prevent a 300+ page threads where only about 25 pages are worth anything.
look at the amount of posts from someone who knows they are barley able to contrubute(but do what he can) and been here this long. compared to people who have been here dont have much to contribute but love to post everything that comes to thier minds.
Join Date
22nd October 2006
Total Posts
89

samygent said:
we sadly are living in the (ME) world
there is such a huge gape beetween the 10-19 generation and 20-29
10-19 generation is living in such an easy world, they never had to blow into their nintendo cassettes , know how heavy a quantum bigfoot is or what RTFM mean's
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Click to collapse
HEY!
im 18 and clearly remember blowing into those damn games to make them work. but when they worked, so much fun i still think theyre better than the crappy xbox and ps3 games of today... but thats just me. lol

pleeease yall! let's keep THIS thread on topic! LOL!!

The atmosphere of XDA has changed

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE this forum. I respect the true developers that push out groundbreaking work and invest their time and talents into what they do, but I have noticed something that does make me a bit disappointed.
I first started coming to XDA early last year when I got me a G1... And while I am not a big contributor, I do adore reading through the wealth of knowledge and advice here. Early on it seems the feel of the board was so much more accepting and pleasant. It was one of the Biggest reasons I stuck with my G1 and felt it would be the big thing to come.
But it seems as of recent, the tone of some areas of this forum have went sour and south. I understand things happen, such as multiple posts about questions that have been answered or goofy comments. And these things get irritating. But they happen. When did the better than you, don't question us, and without warning "snaps" start happening.
I LOVE Android, and I am Very proud to be part of the Android wave since G1, but the bigger we get the more iPhone-fanatical and holier than thou the atmosphere is seemingly becoming.
Why should we treat new comers to the system with such venom or even older members. I have seen high post count members help in some posts and call new members "idiots" or the like, in others. I see threads getting squashed before the ink has dried regarding items of interest that - while a search could be beneficial - the problem may be slightly different or something completely different, if only the ones snapping off at the "member" would read them. I see people defending certain aspects with careless abandon of rationality. Same goes for new users that have a tech problem and get angry when the first response doesn't help. When did entitlement to instant answers come into the picture?
These are not highly common issues that are here - and all forums have such irritations - but they are still here and in much higher velocity the more expanded Android becomes.
I guess with great power comes great responsibility. And when the under dog becomes the big dog, he finds it necessary to bite all the other dogs in retribution.
I don't know, it just saddens me to see such actions here, and I guess I do kinda miss being the underdog a bit and enjoying the camaraderie that came with it.
EDIT: I want to stress that my intended meaning here is not that XDA has become some completely nasty, demented, angry beast. I love this forum. I am merely comparing today to the early days and how the recent breakout of Android and the aspect of being the top dog has changed some tones slightly.

Oh yes. The rudeness over in the Vibrant section is unacceptable.

We invite you to help us by reporting bad behavior, it´s impossible for us to look all the threads in all the sections, so we count a lot with the help of all members to make this more than 3 million great forum called XDA better.
Thanks,

I in no way meant this to mean it's the fault of the Moderators of XDA. Orb is absolutely correct. We readers and commenters are the front line to help remedy this. I am simply remarking on the state and tone of the masses, as we advance from small groups with pioneer devices to the majority of the mobile smart phone community.
Android is pure, its open... as well our arms and responses should be - in a respectful manner. To all questions big, small or redundant. To all comparisons and technological oppositions.
I say that as merely a comment of how we should hold our honor under this platform and as a community. Not as a indictment in any way. This should be the basis of Android and its adopters young and old in places like XDA that are one of the faces of our brand. It's what makes us great. All accepting and all helping. Coming from the small humble steps of Google slightly more than 10 years ago, to the pillars of might which they have now become, I guess this is what I initially meant to express....The original sight and humble nature should not be lost and above all negativity should be hindered.
And as Orb stated, we the readers are the best hope to help remedy such actions, and as such, we such be steadfast in keeping the tone positive and not condemning all things seemingly redundant or in opposition to Android.
Keep up the great work XDA. There are no villains here, merely a young and VERY inspired and dedicated community with a great future. Let's make sure that when the legend is written, that it's written with the proper feelings in place.

So very sorry to jump on a soap box.. I am just very proud to be a part of this community. And my pride spurs very much from the positive nature of this forum and the Android world in general. I never want to lose that rare gem.

They need to hire more Moderators

Proud to be XDA member!
Fantastic words!
recasper said:
All accepting and all helping
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No need to be sorry, I can get your feeling and share it as well!!
Just adding: Not only Android...We have the father of all touch screen OS devices: Windows Mobile, also Windows Phone 7 and even iPhone all come together in XDA!! (and perhaps more to come in the future!)
recasper said:
So very sorry to jump on a soap box.. I am just very proud to be a part of this community. And my pride spurs very much from the positive nature of this forum and the Android world in general. I never want to lose that rare gem.
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this is a very well put together comment. It sort of makes me feel bad of the few,very few times thay I had been rude. Not intentionally but just having a bad day and escaping to the forums for relaxation and ease then being rude in some of my comments. This certainly will make me be gratuous for such a great forum and for the help that I have gotten. I will definetly think twice of all my post from here on out.
Sent from my PC36100 using XDA App

In my rant I completely neglected to keep in mind that XDA is not only the developmental face of Android but so many others. I kind of fell into tunnel vision as I jumped upon my soap box. All other OS platforms should absolutely be acknowledged and thank you Orb for correcting me.
I guess I was focusing more on the Android section of this site due to its weight here and the fact I spend all my time in these sections. Seeing negativity in the areas where there is an assumed open and welcoming nature of Android and its community, tweaked me and inspired me to post this. After thinking about it, this is to say, my thoughts aren't 100% specifically toward the Android section and not to be dismissing the likes of Win7, WinMobile, iPhone and of course (and well stated, Orb) all others to come. I see myself as more of a member of the Android section than any other, but the general feel of my comments are to span all forum sections. Respect, thats what is important.
Thank you, caguirr4, and any following posters with such thoughts. That was my exact intention here. For us all to reanalyze our responses and comments, even when we have had a bad day or feel irritable for redundancy or what some may see as surface ignorance. And to understand that not all readers are developers or highly computer savvy. But merely wanting to get a foothold in this complex area and most are doing what they can. We should open our arms, as we do our code, and allow them safe passage. Especially without the fear of receiving a scathing reply to a post simply reaching for help or personal expression.
And above all thank you ALL for what you do in this incredibly innovative, inspiring and all around wonderful forum.
I shall now step down from this podium and stop wasting everyones time. haha

I know I've personally been rude a few times and I see your point. I was once just as lost with android as some of the new members coming here. Each thread should be treated as important and relevant and if something as simple as a search would suffice then a link to the topic with the answer could be provided and instead of "omg search n00b" a more friendly "Here is the link, please search a bit more carefully next time" could be placed. I know some would still take that as hostile even when it's not meant to be but it is less aggressive and if the person is new maybe even throw in a "and welcome to the forums". I don't really contribute that much in terms of development (I'm not sure you'd even really call my thread development or not) but I, like you, love this community and the amazing things that can be done when we join together. I know some of us just get a bit annoyed at seeing the same question a few hundred times over and there's always that one "straw that breaks the camel's back" and as we learn more ourselves some answers may seem obvious to us when they're not so obvious to others. Thank you for posting this and making us all think about not only our own posts in response to others, but what we really want this community to be and what its potential is.

Thank you OP for the feedback. We will certainly keep this in mind and try to get better.
Over the past few months we have grown enormously, we have added numerous non-hTC devices, plus we have openly started adding all android devices which come out compared to previously only Windows mobile OS devices. Which has lead to a huge influx of new members.
XDA is a convergence of numerous types of people some know it all, some are really knew, some understand english really well, and some not so well.. This is what leads to frustrations, and hence rude-ness over the forums. Eventually as people mature on XDA, they hopefully do learn the manners of posting on a board such as XDA.
And those who don't we moderators are always their to deal with them.
Thank you again for the feedback, it has been noted and we will surely try to make XDA a more welcoming and friendlier place.
Any issues/suggestions/comments feel free to contact me.

XDA lossing members

It seems that since more developers are leaving XDA, and members are flocking to there forums or other android forums. Now I know XDA for quiet some time. I just wish they change some of the ways to certain things. We probably have all developers and more. Support now for the thunderbolt is getting less. Developers who supported the thunderbolt are harder to find. At least for me, I feel like I might need a change very soon since the support for the thunderbolt has lessen.
All I am trying to say is why XDA can't just adapt and have disclaimers for users to understand they need to READ to understand there device and what they are doing to it. Root , and roms updating has risk. People need to ensure they cover every side they read before they do anything on there device.

I like the "thanks" system on xda but to me it really seems there needs to be a way of giving individual posts negative feedback. most social surfing websites have this feature and the ones that implement it well really improve their posting community. The steps are quite simple:
1. Create a social currency (already exists in the thanks meter system)
2. promote the currency so that users really value it, create a culture based on the currency (hardest step)
3. give users the power to say "yay or nay" on any post and again push the culture to participate
4. Add to or detract from the users currency balance based on the votes their posts receive.
5. Below a certain threshold the posts become invisible unless you specifically want to see them
Sent from my ADR6400L using XDA App

mthe0ry said:
I like the "thanks" system on xda but to me it really seems there needs to be a way of giving individual posts negative feedback. most social surfing websites have this feature and the ones that implement it well really improve their posting community. The steps are quite simple:
1. Create a social currency (already exists in the thanks meter system)
2. promote the currency so that users really value it, create a culture based on the currency (hardest step)
3. give users the power to say "yay or nay" on any post and again push the culture to participate
4. Add to or detract from the users currency balance based on the votes their posts receive.
5. Below a certain threshold the posts become invisible unless you specifically want to see them
Sent from my ADR6400L using XDA App
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You raise a good idea, but I think it can be much simpler. A simple + or - for each post would allow users to "rate" the posts. Then a simple filter that will allow users to only show posts with rating s above a certain level would suffice. Useless drivel and repetitive questions will quickly disappear from the filtered results. Any such change more than likely requires some significant updates to the forum though.
As has also been proven before, if large entities don't adapt to changing times, they can die. I don't think XDA is in danger of this yet, but it isn't quite as rich of a resource as it once was.

mthe0ry said:
I like the "thanks" system on xda but to me it really seems there needs to be a way of giving individual posts negative feedback. most social surfing websites have this feature and the ones that implement it well really improve their posting community. The steps are quite simple:
1. Create a social currency (already exists in the thanks meter system)
2. promote the currency so that users really value it, create a culture based on the currency (hardest step)
3. give users the power to say "yay or nay" on any post and again push the culture to participate
4. Add to or detract from the users currency balance based on the votes their posts receive.
5. Below a certain threshold the posts become invisible unless you specifically want to see them
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Click to collapse
I think this is a good idea, however I don't think it should be as simple as a hitting a negative button similar to the thanks button because it wouldn't be used right most of the time. Say I disagree with your post above, that doesn't mean its a bad post and should receive negative feedback, it just means our opinions differ (though they don't, just an example). If there were a few reasons like; trolling, negative comment towards fellow member (including racism/sexism/any ism's, lol), and maybe a repeat topic/question for all the new threads that get started multiple times a day because the op didn't look for the answer first (which would work better if there was a sticky with info or links to info such as what root and other root related things are and links to how to's). Then once posts reach a certain number of negative feedback for the same "offense" that comment would then be hidden with the reason shown.

Where is everyone going to?
Sent from my ADR6400L using XDA App

As far as I know only 2 dev teams left and that due to being treated poorly by people not taking the time to read through threads and follow instructions.
Both of their roms are still available at their personal sites
teambamf.com and themikmik.com

teambamf.net
hopefully they'll get their issues sorted out because the site hasn't been solid yet due to apparent dos attacks.

kudosmog said:
teambamf.net
hopefully they'll get their issues sorted out because the site hasn't been solid yet due to apparent dos attacks.
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Site is back now for Team BAMF
Trident said:
We're back!
wifiguru and I have been working tirelessly all night moving Team BAMF Forums over to a new server and installing a fresh copy of vBulletin. After doing so, we noticed that our issues were not quite resolved as there was a bot submitting approximately 1000 requests per second to port 80 which was causing the server to reach a state of low memory and overload the CPU. We've beefed up our firewall and limited the amount of requests a single IP address can issue per second which should prevent such an attack in the future. Let it be known that this was indeed an attack on our website though. Pretty lame and immature, huh?
Anyways, we're terribly sorry for the downtime! I don't think we'll be seeing much of that in the days to come..
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you really think this site and smartphone growth/development isn't bigger than the TBolt, BAMF and Chingy? Maybe a big blow to you personally or Tbolt community here but come on XDA probably has WAY more members than it had last year and will have WAY more next year than it has this year. And you can bet these "flocks" going to their personal sites are still small and will always be compared to XDA's Tbolt (and other) communities. I'm personally not joined to the hip to any dev's work so if I really dont like the dev's alternate site or there isn't sufficient information there's always another virtually identicle or simular enough rom on XDA to switch over to.

I came here to post about my experience with rooted TBolt, but I cannot post in those threads... Not enough posts. This is very frustrating. It pushes me to go search some alternative ways to talk with developers.

Bad spelling and grammar don't help, either...

stanlalee said:
you really think this site and smartphone growth/development isn't bigger than the TBolt, BAMF and Chingy? Maybe a big blow to you personally or Tbolt community here but come on XDA probably has WAY more members than it had last year and will have WAY more next year than it has this year. And you can bet these "flocks" going to their personal sites are still small and will always be compared to XDA's Tbolt (and other) communities. I'm personally not joined to the hip to any dev's work so if I really dont like the dev's alternate site or there isn't sufficient information there's always another virtually identicle or simular enough rom on XDA to switch over to.
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You really think tbolt devs are the only ones leaving?
Sent from my Transformer TF101 using XDA Premium App

For those of you familiar with Linux distros and their forums, think of it like this: devs here are more like the kind of people you'd find on the Arch or Gentoo forums--they believe (rightfully) that anyone who even considers flashing roms should already know the answers to these questions. And if they honestly don't, the documentation or Google are only a click away.
Now the newbie users, they're more like the kind of people you find on ubuntu forums- people who got sick of the boring factory junk that their device came with, so they switched to this new thing they heard about through a friend and realized too late that it's not as stupid simple as clicking 'next' again and again when installing programs in windows.
You can see the clash that these groups would have...
Two things: there should be a 'newbie' subforum just like EVERY other major project on the internet does, where the questions would be asked and FAQ's could be posted and pinned. And second, the lack of all-inclusive documentation needed to bridge the gap between the two groups is only forcing them further apart.
I had no problem flashing bamf sense 3.0, or changing scripts in init.d because I'm used to looking up the answers on the internet and know how to tell what's junk and what's not. But a lot of users don't. Hence, the need for an all-inclusive newbie subforum with how-to's and FAQ's and such.
I'd be more than happy to contribute to such an endeavor with the admins' blessing too
sent from my rooted Thunderbolt with das BAMF 3.0 rc4

admiralspark said:
because I'm used to looking up the answers on the internet and know how to tell what's junk and what's not. But a lot of users don't. Hence, the need for an all-inclusive newbie subforum with how-to's and FAQ's and such.
I'd be more than happy to contribute to such an endeavor with the admins' blessing too
sent from my rooted Thunderbolt with das BAMF 3.0 rc4
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Exactly my issue...I know what I want to with my TBOLT, but haven't bc of all the junk out on the web for rooting. Id love some one on one support if anyone is willing to help
Sent from my ADR6400L using XDA App

BAMF has said repeatedly that they did not leave due to anything any users said/did. They left for another reason.
Chingy left for some user related issues still contributes greatly to the community.
Both groups still contribute to TB development and will continue to from their sites. Either way most of the development spawns across multiple forums anyway so I dont see any development slowing down in the future.

From the looks of most of the questions asked on the thunderbolt subforum (since many would be better asked or looked for in the general forums), I would gather that most that frequent it think that this forum == xda, which is not true. Compared to the other forums, this one is far more juvenile and dramatic. People are not "leaving" in droves in any other forums nor are developers. Sometimes I think the thunderbolt was the officially endorsed phone of 4chan.
Anyways, xda is not dying. One would think that though if all they read is the thunderbolt forums though
I dont' mind helping the noobs, but sometimes the more obvious questions can wear on you and all you want to say is RTFM, which is probably what the developers that left wanted to say as well. I don't think those that do say such things do it out of being mean, but do it more out of frustration that all the help and advice they might give in the past is just in vain/futility.
As already mentioned. There are two crowds on xda. The mint/ubuntu/what is ubuntu types that will 99% of the time need spoon fed even after helping past the basic stuff and the arch/debian/slackware types that know how to look for information themselves. Those two groups rarely ever seem to "get" each other anyways as also mentioned.

I think as far as the developers are concerned they just want to do their own thing and that's more than understandable! What I don't understand is why shoot yourself in the foot by leaving a huge market like xda (4 million members). If it's personal reasons I can understand but what better way to get more attention than being on multiple forums.
Xda isn't perfect and never will be but I'm not giving up hope that it can be better and moderation is gonna go way up from here on out that's a promise. Another problem is there aren't many mods in thunderbolt section (2 that i know of) but I plan on bringing that up so we can get some more help in here.
The noob sub forum probably won't happen, don't want to alienate new members. What can be done is improved stickies which is being done as I type. There will always be members who ask before searching but with improved stickies it will reduce it.

Some moderating from the mods would be nice too. They should be deleting unuseful posts like "search" and cursing. The problem is when you search for issues you find other threads but the conversation inside them is "search" followed by a pissing contest. Stickies with more information would help and I like the feature that searches for you when you create a new thread. Everyone needs to respect each other here. That's when the mods need to step in and start laying down the ban hammer and warnings. I'd love to help in that department.

Agreed, but a small team will have all sorts of trouble trying to moderate a userbase of 4 million...but we could all help to reduce the number of questions if there was a single source of information to send new users to. So, I'll begin writing up some things tonight (RL class for now).
On a side note, if you'd like some one-on-one help, I'm more than happy to do so through pm/chat/skype/whatever. Everyone started at square one once upon a time
sent from my rooted Thunderbolt with das BAMF 3.0 rc4

I've already created a sticky guide, I'm still working on it as I go feel free to add what ever yall feel necessary!
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1168433

Moderation is somewhat

I've been a loyalist to the SL i9003 forum, From the day the threads went up to when we were grouped under the Galaxy S section as a sub base, Honestly despite moving onto greener pastures the SL i9003 has always been my first choice in the android department, hence why I still keep my SLi9003 and why I would spend as much as it takes to keep it alive than any other higher tier class phones.
First, this thread means no threat, but ofcourse, this is General section and anything goes, The moderators have been doing a splendid job, and if anything what surprises me the most is the activity----in a Legacy & Low Activity Devices section, but a few things have irked me.
I have stood around in the Hillbeast thread and side with Dhiru's and both are what's "Hot" or what's keeping thing's alive here, in a place where development has met it's scarcity. I agree the moderators have done their job properly in keeping things in line where patience runs short considering both developers (Or might I recognize just one- Hey it's the truth, monkey see, monkey do) depend on each other's work to keep the phone in it's tip top shape, but why has the moderation been so strict?
If anything this is the Legacy & Low Activity Devices and we have been shot down from once a standard recognized phone, to the abyss of low tier phones, I would agree there is alot of noob questions being asked, and alot of ruckus about the recent events, but aren't we, the community to decide and voice our opinions out? I would agree the noob questions/statements need to be rubbed off from the thread but I feel the manner of erasing certain posts and thread has gone a bit---overboard and I feel this thread would meet it's match soon. Again, I mean no disrespect to the fine moderators who have done their job properly. I just feel someone had to state this out.
And why? A small share, I was told recently I had been featured on XDA and I didn't even know it (GTab 10.1) so I decided to Google myself, upon doing so, I had seen my threads been offlinked, copy pasted from the GT-i9003 section into other forums, usually I'd ignore this but I noticed most of them are scared to ask or post because of the strict moderation that goes around that too on a Legacy & Low Activity Devices section. Most of them require the tutorial guide in order to move forward to dhiru's ROM because everyone knows if you screw up while flashing a firmware, you end up having a screwed phone not worth having a "blessing" on. I feel the crucial part gets erased, if anything most developers need to know the feedback, improving requires feedback, feedback inspires improvisation.
This has just been going on for a while, and I feel I needed to say this, perhaps most of the community would agree with me on this.
Good job once again to the moderators. With all due respect.

thats really true ....
well said brother !!!
Hope Mods doesn't delete this topic also !!!

nicely said ! if it wasnt u, i would have posted such ! because things do seem to get out of hand ! before you kno it most of the important posts are deleted without the concerned developers reading it!

shriomman said:
nicely said ! if it wasnt u, i would have posted such ! because things do seem to get out of hand ! before you kno it most of the important posts are deleted without the concerned developers reading it!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I feel the crucial part gets erased, if anything most developers need to know the feedback, improving requires feedback, feedback inspires improvisation.

Misledz said:
I feel the crucial part gets erased, if anything most developers need to know the feedback, improving requires feedback, feedback inspires improvisation.
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Click to collapse
Ya especially feedback by senior member for hillbeast & not stupid feedback by stupid noobs who have recently joined this forum (who dont know history of this fotum).

@ misledz
Well said brother

@OP .. or anyone else ... care to explain all this in a more of layman's term. Just for literarily inept people like me.
What exactly happened? What was posted and then removed?
Only then I might be able to participate in this debate.
Flame me for my opinions but not for my questions.

Hetalk said:
@OP .. or anyone else ... care to explain all this in a more of layman's term. Just for literarily inept people like me.
What exactly happened? What was posted and then removed?
Only then I might be able to participate in this debate.
Flame me for my opinions but not for my questions.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
More or less when we placed our expectations on HB we had hoped there would be more of a response than ignorance. Instead the posts got deleted, thread got cleaned and such.
@krazzy Wow I didn't think id' see you here too

^^ Now I see what exactly you're saying.
Even I felt that after months(weeks if you say so) of inactivity for a much awaited and critical development, asking for a ETA(disguised or not) shouldn't be considered a taboo/bane.
People (current senior members) knew(anticipated) this was critical to further development for this device, and decided to donate for a device to get a willing (note this word) and experienced developer to help in this project.
For new users , before posting anything, please understand that lack of development on this front is taking a toll on the very few developers we have for this device. I personally know a couple of devs, who could have helped in this development, if it really happened, who have moved on for greener pastures.
I repeat, these seniors who are (unnecessarily?) asking for ETAs aren't asking after a week from initial announcement/donation.
This is just my opinion, as I felt obliged to post it.

I agree with you:
Improving requires feedback, feedback inspires improvisation.
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Click to collapse
But it is also true that most of the time things are not done the way they should be. I'll use as an example Hillbeast's Kernel 3.x thread too:
Since the beginning, hillbeast stated users should use [Q/A] thread for inquiries and different stuff instead of the development thread, but people continued posting questions in that thread. At first, hillbeast answered almost every question; then, people started asking for ETA and such annoying things, and that's something we could not allow. Finally, moderators appeared and cleaned the whole thread, and now they keep it 'cleaned', also deleting questions not directly related with kernel 3.x development, which at first were more or less tolerated.
To sum up, the ones who worsened the situation were we, people who don't understand the current problems developers are facing, and that led to moderators deleting posts of people just asking questions because they are noobs or they want to know what's going on.
I know it because I've been in this forum for a year and a half (I am not a developer nor a contributor, so I try to keep quiet and just press thanks or give some feedback, that's why I only have a few posts), and i've been reading that thread regularly, at least once a day, since the first post.
I am not blaming anybody, I just think that the way moderators behave has its own reasons...
As we say in Spain, "Al final pagan justos por pecadores", that means something like: "In the end, pay righteous people because of sinners" (sorry for the translation, that's the only way I came up to express it.
Cheers!

@matapollos that's going as my status for the day ! And that has so much truth to it, I've been watching the HB thread ever since it started. Seen the people who took the initiative to help him but a developer is only as strong as the community that favors him, If anything HB should have kept his word, the community had kept theirs on the phone. It just feels---wrong? Yes you will help and answer but there's a saying in english, All bark and no bite. Actions should match what was preached.

As I just woke up and haven't had any coffee, I am not going to do anything with this yet until I have a chance to go through it properly.
OK, gotta run off to work, but here is something.
Misledz said:
I've been a loyalist to the SL i9003 forum, From the day the threads went up to when we were grouped under the Galaxy S section as a sub base, Honestly despite moving onto greener pastures the SL i9003 has always been my first choice in the android department, hence why I still keep my SLi9003 and why I would spend as much as it takes to keep it alive than any other higher tier class phones.
First, this thread means no threat, but ofcourse, this is General section and anything goes, The moderators have been doing a splendid job, and if anything what surprises me the most is the activity----in a Legacy & Low Activity Devices section,
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks.
Misledz said:
but a few things have irked me.
I have stood around in the Hillbeast thread and side with Dhiru's and both are what's "Hot" or what's keeping thing's alive here, in a place where development has met it's scarcity. I agree the moderators have done their job properly in keeping things in line where patience runs short considering both developers (Or might I recognize just one- Hey it's the truth, monkey see, monkey do) depend on each other's work to keep the phone in it's tip top shape, but why has the moderation been so strict?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I assure you that I am taking actions based on reports. I do not own a Galaxy SL so I am not here other than for mod purposes.
Misledz said:
If anything this is the Legacy & Low Activity Devices and we have been shot down from once a standard recognized phone, to the abyss of low tier phones, I would agree there is alot of noob questions being asked, and alot of ruckus about the recent events, but aren't we, the community to decide and voice our opinions out? I would agree the noob questions/statements need to be rubbed off from the thread but I feel the manner of erasing certain posts and thread has gone a bit---overboard and I feel this thread would meet it's match soon. Again, I mean no disrespect to the fine moderators who have done their job properly. I just feel someone had to state this out.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I am taking actions based on reports entered by the community members here. Since I do not own a Galaxy SL I am not a member of any of the factions here.
Misledz said:
And why? A small share, I was told recently I had been featured on XDA and I didn't even know it (GTab 10.1) so I decided to Google myself, upon doing so, I had seen my threads been offlinked, copy pasted from the GT-i9003 section into other forums, usually I'd ignore this but I noticed most of them are scared to ask or post because of the strict moderation that goes around that too on a Legacy & Low Activity Devices section. Most of them require the tutorial guide in order to move forward to dhiru's ROM because everyone knows if you screw up while flashing a firmware, you end up having a screwed phone not worth having a "blessing" on. I feel the crucial part gets erased, if anything most developers need to know the feedback, improving requires feedback, feedback inspires improvisation.
This has just been going on for a while, and I feel I needed to say this, perhaps most of the community would agree with me on this.
Good job once again to the moderators. With all due respect.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
People scared to ask questions? Really? That would be news based on the number of questions that keep getting asked.
Can you give specific examples of your threads which have been copied to other device forums please?
As far as thread cleaning/deleting posts, I can promise that I have not deleted one single bit of "crucial" information.
I have to go for now, but I will continue this later. I want to work with you guys, but I also am required to do certain things for reasons you are not aware of. I am happy to explain them wherever possible.
Thank you,
mf2112

Misledz said:
@matapollos that's going as my status for the day ! And that has so much truth to it, I've been watching the HB thread ever since it started. Seen the people who took the initiative to help him but a developer is only as strong as the community that favors him, If anything HB should have kept his word, the community had kept theirs on the phone. It just feels---wrong? Yes you will help and answer but there's a saying in english, All bark and no bite. Actions should match what was preached.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well said Misledz.
My own recognize developer list have only one name still, trying to get it more, however, they still yet to be right.
i have once donate a SL to a XDA member(or Developer?), and now he's still not yet recognized by public (or XDA?) what is going on here at SL forum?
for the MOD, I think they are fair enough, rules is rules, it mean to be follow, but...still...... anyone missing Jay here ?:victory:

Another trend I've noticed, is the rise of the "unofficial" moderators.
People "spamming" on almost every post.
Best example would be a newbie on XDA asking for something like an ETA, and the damn post has 20+ replies saying Donot Ask for ETAs.
This was just an example.
I see that there are more of such posts, than that of regular queries.
This makes checking threads sometimes very much irritating. Opening a thread only to find out just another reply moderating previous posts.

Misledz said:
More or less when we placed our expectations on HB we had hoped there would be more of a response than ignorance. Instead the posts got deleted, thread got cleaned and such.
@krazzy Wow I didn't think id' see you here too
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Click to collapse
brother i have always visit i9003 section when i visit xda

moderation shd be strict. so as to keep only usefull n informative posts. else we all will be lost in huge amt of posts.

SaeberTooth4U said:
moderation shd be strict. so as to keep only usefull n informative posts. else we all will be lost in huge amt of posts.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have to agree with you.
This forum is for developers. Testers and noobs are here as visitors and if they are looking around for information, they should search very hard before distracting the major contributors. Testing helps the devs, but harassment doesn't. Testing doesn't mean complaining about battery life. That is what spoiled children do. Thinking about yourself. People who have questions will always find the answer to their questions by searching. If there is no answer anywhere to be found (extremely rare), start a new thread in the General Section. It's simple.
I'm neither a developer nor a programmer. But I know my place and just say what's necessary and search very very hard before asking a question. At least I try. I think about the developers that use this forum to work on phones and don't appreciate it when someone who obviously has no interest in development comes and makes demands as though a ROM or a MOD or any feature or bug is the responsibility of these devs.
I find it crazy when I see non-devs here with hundreds of posts.
It would make much more sense for everyone to keep quiet and read. No need to comment on every thread you go through. ESPECIALLY if you're not developing or solving a problem.

samisax said:
I have to agree with you.
This forum is for developers. Testers and noobs are here as visitors and if they are looking around for information.
I'm neither a developer nor a programmer. But I know my place and just say what's necessary and search very very hard before asking a question. At least I try. I think about the developers that use this forum to work on phones and don't appreciate it when someone who obviously has no interest in development comes and makes demands as though a ROM or a MOD or any feature or bug is the responsibility of these devs.
I find it crazy when I see non-devs here with hundreds of posts.
It would make much more sense for everyone to keep quiet and read. No need to comment on every thread you go through. ESPECIALLY if you're not developing or solving a problem.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
samisax, you have my sympathy! You have written exactly what I was thinking. It annoys me when I see people demanding things to developers, as if they were their employers...
At least in this thread I've realised there's still people with good manners that knows when they may ask for something from others or not.
I'm really really relieved. Thank you guys

problem
OK, home from work now. First, I am not ever going to infract or punish someone for expressing their honest opinion, as long as it is done in a civil fashion, so I definitely appreciate a good discussion.
To respond to this thread in a general fashion...I see vague complaints over a great many forums about mods doing this or that, or not doing this or that, but rarely any specific instances. We do have a thread in this forum: Moderators to assist should anyone want to bring up specific instances of problems. That means links so we can go there and fix the problems. Please feel free to use that thread. Please feel free to (continue to) use the report button as several dozen of you already have. I have several pages full of reports from this forum. Please feel free to PM me. Some of you have done this, I have received PMs from a number of members with requested actions of me. People have posted requests in the thread above as well. In fact that is really where this thread should have gone, but you don't really have specific examples, so ok.
So people here are reporting things which I am taking actions per the guidelines I have been issued by the Moderator Committee. "Strict" is all relative. I thought I had been strict but fair so far. According to other mods, including jayharper08, I have been too lenient. I am not sure how much "modding" the Galaxy users here want but I can state that the answer is not leaning towards "lenient" based on the number and types of reports I am getting. If people here didn't care, they wouldn't bother to report thread after thread, post after post.
Without any specific examples I can't really give you specific answers as to why I took whatever action I did, but I can tell you that my motivations for working many many MANY hours on XDA that have led to being a moderator were definitely not to close or move threads or posts from other users in other forums I had no real time or interest for given that I never owned or ever will own any of them, or to have to explain repeatedly that it is NOT OK to distribute paid applications here on XDA as this is a community of developers, some of which do make their living from writing software, and that piracy is stealing in exactly the same fashion as if it had been lifted off the store shelf and walked out with it, or to reluctantly hand out infractions to users after PMs and warnings proved not to be sufficient. We don't like to do this. Not one mod I have talked to enjoys having to discipline members, but the alternative is far worse. We are not going to let XDA go downhill like many other sites have done. There are community rules and the rules will be followed, for the benefit of all in the community.
Now, to answer this thread with a very specific example which in all honesty seems to the the *real* issue underlying most other issues in this forum.
Hillbeast.
First, can someone point me to a thread or something written down which says exactly what hillbeast was supposed to do and when? I don't want to prejudge the situation, but all I know so far is that several phones were purchased with pooled monies, one of which went to hillbeast, one went to dhiru (I think, not sure on this one), and one went to another (unrecognized?) dev that I can''t recall the name of who seems to have skipped. If there is something written down that gives me very clear guidelines on what was given and what was expected it would be very helpful here, instead of vague complaints and ETA demands, which frankly I did erase without a second thought.
I see several posts here in this thread concerned that I might have erased something important. I promise to every one of you that I deleted nothing that would remotely qualify as "important" or more to the point "relevant" to a dev thread. If there was anything even slightly technical or related in those posts, I would keep it and erase only the unrelated parts. I deleted the initial offending posts which were reported, then I removed the followup piling on posts, some of which went overboard and were also reported. When arguments start, both sides posts are going to be deleted. No one is more right from all evidence I have seen so far. Since I do not own this device and am not in any of the factions here, I am not taking any sides, but I will defend any members from unwarranted attacks or unsubstantiated claims.
I am not sure how many people here have even the faintest understanding of how real development works. Too many people I think have a completely wrong understanding based on ROMs they are seeing from "devs" that are nothing more than zip jockeys. Frankly, I doubt there is one person in 10,000 here on XDA that can really understand what hillbeast is trying to do. Without benefit of assistance from the manufacturer.
In fact, the manufacturer doesn't even want people doing this at all since it might cause them not buy the newest model phone.
So what I need here is the contract that was agreed to by hillbeast and the other devs and the members here. I can't go by anything vague or that isn't stipulated by 100% of the involved parties. I wasn't here when this deal was set up, but I promise to carefully evaluate everything and I will act fairly.
Thank you,
mf2112
EDIT: To be clear, I am not saying I am going to take an action here. My gut feeling as someone who has worked around software development for more than 10 years is that many of you guys are simply being too impatient. Especially given that hillbeast (despite the irony of his username ) is not an employee of anyone here to the best of my knowledge.
As far as how people want me to mod...well, I am not jayharper08 so I am not going to do things like he did. I can tell you that I don't want to run the forum. I don't want to go through all the threads and posts and find "modly" things to do in my not-so-spare time. When people report things then I come check it out and figure out what to do. Since people here report a lot, I am here more often, which is fine with me but some people may not appreciate. BTW, your thread was not reported, I found it on my own. :victory:
The above being said, I am human and I can make mistakes. If anyone has an issue then talk to me. If I did something wrong I will correct it. If you disagree with something I have done then let me know why (civilly) and I will explain to the best of my ability. You have no reason to fear talking to me in public or private. I became a mod to help people here, not harm them.

Mf2112,
Firstly I would like to thank you for taking the time to sit and read through this and place your points on the table along with your opinions. In a way the thread wasn't that hard to find (Considering the Triangle and the word "Moderator" brings people to see what's being said, pretty nifty tactic I learned over at the GNexus side LOL) as much as I would like to press thanks, the ever so wonderful system has permitted me from my daily 8 limit. And I would do so because this was more or less the response I least expected, in the sense, it's a good response, infact an unbiased one but touches all areas, like a pedophile checking his new victim.
Before I start this, I have no ill intention towards HB, but the whole ETA in the HB thread turned sour only because the agreement between developer (I would hold my word on the developer part) and community was made in exchange. Yes his help was sought out because we had believed that XDA is a place where people share their expertise. Do what is agreed upon (with a fair deal ofcourse) and we don't place any high expectations or hopes in such. But when it's been half a year, that's when things start to roll considering with each passing month, another flagship Class A/B phone get's launched, which is the initial reason why the ETA's went up in flames (But ofcourse this only applies to who ACTUALLY can do something with it). I would have agreed if HB had stated what he lacked, and why he was unable to provide so, he had done initially in the beginning, but when it was more of "Speak first, we listen, then show us what you have done" he turned all silent, which turned tides.
There were 4 phones donated, DoomLord, Fuss132, dhiru, codeworkx. Each of them presented something within a short time of the device they were given, I mean such is the expectation isn't it? I know pooling isn't a big deal considering its $5-$10 each person, but if the community was aware that there were going to be no results that would emerge then they would have donated to XDA instead and gotten a pretty gold star beside their name. I don't know if I'm being too emotional over $5-$10's, but when you climb up that harsh economy ladder from a third world country like most of us do, you suddenly get that feel of how important/valuable $1 is. (Consider the fact that some would find people crazy to spend over RS/PHP 20k over a phone where that would pay up for 1 semester of a College student)
I completely agree however of the mindless babble of those who submit no contribution but have high # of posts. It's insane. But with XDA having 5+ million online user's daily, It's hard to determine who helps and who doesn't. Which is why I've mentioned you have done a splendid job in clean sweeping the arena. Keep up the great work and sorry if this has gone a bit indepth.

[SLIGHTLY OFF TOPIC!] ROMS. the state of the forums :(

HELLO! Long time member here
Now its time for me to have a bit of a rant! Over the last few years, this site/forums, have gone downhill, the reason being....? Ignoring The rules and not doing things for yourselves!
I am not a mod, or admin, but I expect I speak on behalf of a large number of users/rom devs, when you see the same posts explaining the same thing again and again!
Such Enjoyable posts such as 'can I use xposed on this'. 'whats the battery like on this thing - even though the rom has just been released!!! whens the new update coming, and why not for my model?????
You see, I could never ever share a rom on here (I have made loads for myself, including a few for note 3), because of a small number of users WHO CANT POST in the right section, READ Q&A forum, or MOAN because they have bricked their handset because they have not read things properly!
XDA is a amazing site, and I have killed and revived hundreds of handsets, but people think its their god given right to expect the dev etc to hold their hands and go through every step of the flashing of roms, its a case of trial and error, the roms here are not always 100% stable, but people expect it to be! people expect the latest firmware, bits and bobs to be added all the time, the devs have real lifes, families, and jobs......they are doing you a favour....free!!
What I am saying is, please respect the devs, the forum mods, and post in correct sections!!! use search.....or a little site called google.......any of you can inbox me with any problems you have
Anyway I LOVE YOU ALL

Couldn't have said it better. I know several developers who have mostly migrated to other forums due, in large part, to the things you mentioned.
I too have put together a number of ROMs, full themes, and apps, the majority of which I've either kept for personal use, or shared only with select individuals, because it's almost become a burden to publicly release them here. Alliance has an unofficial rule where any time someone asks about an update, we postpone releasing one, but even that doesn't stop the incessant stream of repeated questions that we get (the majority of which are already answered in the OP).
A lot of the members here don't seem to understand that this is, first and foremost, a developers site, and they act as if they're entitled to something or that the devs somehow owe them something. I've never understood that mindset; Whenever I've wanted to modify something, in any way, I've put in the time (sometimes years) needed to learn how to do it myself, and if I ever got stuck, have sought guidance from more knowledgable people. That doesn't seem to happen much any more.
XDA has gone through some major changes, and has grown almost exponentially in the 9 years that I've been here, and I couldn't be happier for its' success, but some things have certainly, and unfortunately, been lost along the way.

There is also the issue of people who steal others work. The number of devs I have seen leave xda because of that is quite high. It is not ok and it is against the rules for people to do it but they still do. Once the devs who put the time in to create the mods leave nothing new happens because no one knows how to do anything without copy and paste or even have their own original ideas.

Same old same old since XDA moved from a developers forum to a forum for those that don't know and refuse to read/ learn .
I gave up years ago and try to ignore the idiot posts .

@JJEgan: You really gave up, years ago, with that post count?
Anyway, the problem is newcomers. They don't search, they don't read, but their demands are high all the same, that's the most saddening part I think.
All the ROM/ Kernel topics should have a separate Q&A section. But at the same time I think its needed to be mentioned that OP (Original Post) should contain all the needed informations too, sometimes they don't!

Yes is the answer to first question .
Only time i use the forums is nowadays for a new rom .

I've been visiting xda, as a lurker, for years (since about '07-'08) and only created an account a couple of years ago. (Hence the low/non-existant post count.) I may not have ever released any of my own fiddlings for my phone(s), but I have borrowed some of the knowledge from the fine developers and learned more about my phone(s). It also annoys the hell outta me to see so many people refusing to learn about the equipment they use everyday and expect to have people, busting their asses (on their own time & dime), just bow down and cater to the weak-minded and lazy masses. It's sad... If someone's too lazy to do the homework before they go flash happy, then I feel they deserve the bricks. I have nothing but mad respect for the devs who put their work out there, regardless of quality! To play off of what Morningstar said, I think it's great that there's a bit of a slap on the hand, from the devs, of the disrespectful, over-eager ones who get too grabby-- command respect wherever you can! HAHAHA!
Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

@DSA thats a great name from the past! I used to love your Blackbox roms from a couple years back, remember it used to amazing, and can remember too, that you closed your thread due to the same sort of thing.....people posting non development stuff.......I managed to sell a old s4 about 8 months back that had your rom on it (the bloke preferred a 4.4.2 rom)

DEV section should be for DEVs ONLY. There should be a category in which you have to be invited to be able to post there. Rest must go to Q/A section IMO. I am mod myself, not of a such big forum like XDA, but from ReactOS forums. Even there you have stupid children starting a rant with their first post or more often just post a stupid question answered two posts above! Same like here, just not that many ppl flooding you ^^ I started to give away free warnings and bans to minimize the negative impact we have there after any public booth we had somewhere etc. Telling ppl not to do X and Y and what are they doing? X AND Y OF COURSE! You write it in the first post in RED AND CAPS LOCK and ppl still don't read it. Then they show up to rant that their PC is dead, hamster is pregnant, phone fell into the fish tank and whatever else you might be the evil guy for. I completely second AND support that opinion of the OP.

In my opinion only Devs, Mods and Senior Members (maybe with some criteria, ex. by registration date and/or by number thanks) should be able to post on the Development section.
I would assume that most Senior Members with several years of registration, and with at least 50 thanks would know the forum rules.
Closing the Dev section only to Devs would bring very little input and feedback.

pacc said:
In my opinion only Devs, Mods and Senior Members (maybe with some criteria, ex. by registration date and/or by number thanks) should be able to post on the Development section.
I would assume that most Senior Members with several years of registration, and with at least 50 thanks would know the forum rules.
Closing the Dev section only to Devs would bring very little input and feedback.
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Thats what the Q/A is for.

emuandco said:
Thats what the Q/A is for.
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You're right, but many senior members know programming and their contribution to development would be lost in the extensive list of Q/A.
Hopefully XDA will figure something out.

I am of the opposite opinion.
Ten years ago you asked a question you got a reply. Simple and practical.
Now you have to put up with a stream of people moaning and lamenting the nerve of someone daring to ask a question that has been asked before, usually because the op has not been updated or has such useful instructions as:
Installation instructions:
1. Install
So now instead of having a simple question and answer we just have the questions and the moaners; people who conveniently forget that they had their own questions earlier and act instead as guardians of some sacred knowledge which you must trawl through a several thousand page long thread (or three or four separate threads) before being worthy to dare ask a question.
My two cents.

1. That's what the search function is for. There's a rule, search first, ask questions later. I mean if not found.
2. There's also the attitude problem with people being entitled to anything, as if they are doing a favor for using the roms. No doubt, bugs can only be found if enough people are using it, and they are beta testing it this way for the developers, but still the work here is done by the developers.
3. But this is true until a developer starts accepting donations. I believe while somebody is doing in his free time, on his own dime, he/she can decide what questions to address. But after receiving the first donation at least the real documented bugs should all be answered at least with an "I'm looking into it".
4. OP should grant moderator rights for his/her topic, and purge irrelevant stuff.
My 2c.

istperson said:
1. That's what the search function is for. There's a rule, search first, ask questions later. I mean if not found.
2. There's also the attitude problem with people being entitled to anything, as if they are doing a favor for using the roms. No doubt, bugs can only be found if enough people are using it, and they are beta testing it this way for the developers, but still the work here is done by the developers.
3. But this is true until a developer starts accepting donations. I believe while somebody is doing in his free time, on his own dime, he/she can decide what questions to address. But after receiving the first donation at least the real documented bugs should all be answered at least with an "I'm looking into it".
4. OP should grant moderator rights for his/her topic, and purge irrelevant stuff.
My 2c.
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I wholeheartedly agree with your numbers 1,2, and 4. I take exception with number 3 though. The donation is a thank you for what the person has done. Like tipping a waiter at a restaurant ... better job done .. better tip. But that is done at the end. Appreciation for a job well done. Maybe next trip you get really good service ... maybe you get someone else. My point is that making the donation doesn't give anyone the right to "expect" more. Most donations are minimal .. very nice to receive ... but normally small. So if you send someone $5 and expect more, you are putting a very small value on their time.
The majority of crap that clogs the threads is people not searching as stated previously. It's obvious that some people are just too lazy or have come to expect to be hand fed the information. They even state in the post thing like "too many post to look at" and "just don't have the time to look" ( for themselves). If I search and find the answer for them, I usually put in my post a link to the post with the answer as well as the amount of time I spent searching (usually less than a minute). This normally brings out the hatred in people, but I really don't care.
This thread has surprised me in that it hasn't turned into a battleground yet. Nice that opinions can flow and discussions can happen without the need for a mod to calm the situation. We all know it won't change anything on xda .. it is what it is. It has changed a lot since I started a few years ago. I just tend to stay in threads that are suited to my nature and with people with sense of humor like mine. The others that I follow that are not like that, I tend to remain silent(ish).
Some things like total disrespect for someones work really set me off. I have seen people tell other themers that their work is ugly or tell them how it should look. I look at their profile and they have produced nothing here. Multiple threads started about help me this and that, and request for things to be done. It just chaps my ass. But it is what it is. Anyway ... Rant over ... thanks OP for the thread.

Bubba said:
I wholeheartedly agree with your numbers 1,2, and 4. I take exception with number 3 though. The donation is a thank you for what the person has done. Like tipping a waiter at a restaurant ... better job done .. better tip. But that is done at the end. Appreciation for a job well done. Maybe next trip you get really good service ... maybe you get someone else. My point is that making the donation doesn't give anyone the right to "expect" more. Most donations are minimal .. very nice to receive ... but normally small. So if you send someone $5 and expect more, you are putting a very small value on their time.
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No you're right, I agree, it's not the value of the work just saying it's appreciated.
What I was trying to say was that if being correct only those will accept donations who are really determined to have a relatively complete rom made, and by complete I mean compared to what is announced in the OP. And if people appreciate it then at least every well documented bug report would be nice if it was acknowledged. Just to show that this is really a contribution to the development if someone gives links to logcats, and gives steps to reproduction. And by no means what is very frequent here: "This sucks, fix it!!!!!!!111111One"

istperson said:
3. But this is true until a developer starts accepting donations. I believe while somebody is doing in his free time, on his own dime, he/she can decide what questions to address. But after receiving the first donation at least the real documented bugs should all be answered at least with an "I'm looking into it".
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Your last post cleared things up a bit, and I think I get your point, but I still completely disagree with this statement.
Every developer I know here (including myself), has a 'real' job, and does development work solely as a hobby in their spare time. A donation is just that. it's not solicited or expected, it's simply a way of showing appreciation and thanking a dev for the work that they've done.
Personally, the things that I've shared here publicly and/or are included in others' releases are the product of several hundred hours (and probably more than that) of work. I've received a few donations, but the total sum doesn't even amount to one full day's pay at my 'real' job, so I would say everything I do is on 'my time' and 'my dime'.

Morningstar said:
Your last post cleared things up a bit, and I think I get your point, but I still completely disagree with this statement.
Every developer I know here (including myself), has a 'real' job, and does development work solely as a hobby in their spare time. A donation is just that. it's not solicited or expected, it's simply a way of showing appreciation and thanking a dev for the work that they've done.
Personally, the things that I've shared here publicly and/or are included in others' releases are the product of several hundred hours (and probably more than that) of work. I've received a few donations, but the total sum doesn't even amount to one full day's pay at my 'real' job, so I would say everything I do is on 'my time' and 'my dime'.
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100 percent agreed. I have spent thousands of hours on my personal theme for alliance that i freely share. Same for apps that I also share. I have received only a couple of donations. Not that I care. But they are nice. I appreciate the thanks clicked just as much.
But again the point is ... It's a thank you ... not a purchase with a promise. Knowing the people that @Morningstar and myself know through this hobby is (to me) humbling. The average user could never begin to comprehend the time and effort ... and dedication ... maybe even some OCDC ... that goes into building or theming a rom or app.

It IS hard work and I am always grateful to the amazing helpful members who make coming here enjoyable and who vastly outnumber the vocal whiny minority of spoiled douches.
My 2c ?
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Welcome to the new world,Facebook and the deliberate dumbing down of the masses.. Its no accident that the general public aren't as bright as they were,ask any teacher how new age teaching just isn't as good as the old ways.
I can see and share your frustrations but there a lot of factors
young people have more disposable income I see 12yr olds with S6s and other high end phones
young people have been spoilt and are treated like little prince/princesses because the parents are so busy earning a living they can't give them time so spoil them or try to buy their love creating needy lazy demanding kids
the general assumption is that young people are internet savvy but this is far from the truth, I see classes of kids every day in the high school years who still don't realise that you can type an address into a web browser they do a search for the same site every day and then click the link. If google was shut down the world would end for a lot of people
samsung have released so many different models and variants which wasn't the case in the past so people have a lot more issues world wide
upgrading custom roms were probably less buggy than ported roms which are released now as betas, maybe they shouldn't be? it seems to be a bit much too ask for many to comprehend
xda's popularity and some people over eagerness to help beginners encourages too many people without enough skills to attempt highly risky things
there are a lot more postings of high end roms and later versions of android onto older hardware so many more issues than in the past where it was more cosmetic adjustments and feature add ons
there are a lot more asian developers so there are a lot of roms that are released and have to be made international (more issues)
a lot of the roms threads are terrible now possibly due to different cultures again
compare note2 threads with note3 threads,note 2 were usually logical with all files in OP are now a lot of note 3 threads are a mess with sometimes note3 base note4 base s6 base and note 5 in same thread and questions and fixes are just donated randomly all through the thread by anyone rather than dev only.
I would consider myself an experienced xda lurker but following just a note 3 means trying to keep on top of many different threads to just make sense out of peoples cross thread posts its very time consuming
a lot of thread starters need to be a lot more organised in the OP and control their threads more, removing comments that are about other roms etc,I think because they know and follow all the other threads as well as there own they assume everyone reading is doing the same. I do feel sorry for someone blindly trying to get started now but a well controlled thread would make huge difference,list known bugs themselves in the OP,
Some developers might be better to hand their thread over to someone enthusiastic to control the thread on their behalf to get back to the great examples set by omega,bobcat ,phoenix ,resurrection dr keten
there are some fantastically helpful and nice people on these forums and some incredibly bright ones but society is what it is
personally I blame Facebook