Related
A friend posted this message on youtube about Androids issues with accessibility and i think he has made some great points that i think all software devs and ROM devs should consider.
Would probably be best to get together a specific list of integrations that sight-impaired users would like implemented so that Devs have something to work with. I know he mentioned a few features, but it would work out a lot better to have detailed instructions versus having devs bang something out that falls short simply because there wasn't enough input from the people who would benefit from this.
Many of you are going to know all this, and many know far better than I. Please, those that do, please step in and correct my information if I make any mistakes.
I see the word stable thrown around a lot - "Is this ROM stable", "stable release", etc.
I want to attempt to pin down a definition when in use for regular conversation, and I also want to address that there is one use of the word that is clearly defined and cannot be used lightly.
First, in the development/open source world, the vast majority of projects you will see are in beta or sometimes even alpha. This means that it's still in some sort of testing phase, and there are usually some bugs that need to be ironed out before it's termed a "finished product". By the very nature of software and developers' desire to be honest, it's quite common that there are some pieces of software that will never leave beta(and some even used in a corporate production environment. "beta" is not a death sentence and doesn't mean there's something fatally flawed). There is always more work to be done, a bug here, something to smooth out there, something that needs to be optimized, etc. A developer can not be satisfied to release a final version. That being said, it does happen. Once it reaches past beta, it often gets promoted to a "release candidate".
A release candidate, or RC, means that they are fairly satisfied that bugs are taken care of, and that they are PRETTY sure there's no major flaw lurking in the depths waiting for the perfect moment to rise and bring down death and destruction upon any innocent fool who crosses its path. This is the final step leading up to that coveted and rare specimen - the :victory:Stable Release.:victory:
Once the release candidate has gone through rigorous testing by developers, users, testers, etc, it can finally become a stable release. It's a big risk to label something as a stable release. This is the developer giving you their word and staking their reputation to say "there are no bugs in this piece of software. It is being released as a final version and will not cause you any trouble".
I beg you to correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe there are stable releases for any any ROM for the MT4GS. Once again, this is very common in the development world, and not just for phones. Just take a look at the number of projects on slashdot that are widely used by thousands of people with no trouble - much of them sitting in beta or even alpha.
Now is where we run into some ambiguity using the term. At a passing glance, and certainly to the uninformed, seeing that software isn't "stable" will naturally and intuitively lead one to believe it must be somehow unstable. Given the nature of open source and development, we know that this isn't necessarily the case. There may be something very minor that only comes up in certain situations, the developer may still feel that there hasn't been enough testing to rule out any bugs, or there may be no bugs at all but the developer is not yet satisfied with the completeness, speed, or number of features.
Now, I would like to address how the word is used in conversation or when asking questions about a ROM. Stability itself, is absolutely very important, with good reason, to a vast majority of people who own a mobile phone. This is often their only source of communication and is required for work, for emergencies, and for generally keeping in contact. If the phone fails to function in a manner that keeps the user reliably connected to their web resources as well as phone, email and messaging communication, there could very well be disastrous results. Therefore, asking if the rom is stable is very valid and relevant, but due to the fact that the word stable can have such an ambiguous definition, and is also a term for a particular stage in development, communication can break down pretty quickly between parties when the term starts getting tossed around.
The device I had previously was a Motorola Droid 1(OG Droid, Sholes, etc.). This phone had a huge and extremely active development community on many different websites. Many devs still hold the moto droid in a special place in their hearts for how hackable it was, the power it had for a device at the time of its release, and the massive userbase ranging from those with no technical ability at all to some of the best hackers ever to work on Android. This device truly represented the renaissance, if not the birth, of custom development for android devices.One thing that was extremely common across almost any ROM or kernel you could put on that phone, however, was a risk of "instability". In this case, this usually meant that the phone would randomly reboot, especially when doing something particularly tasking on the cpu(navigation was a particularly common culprit). In extreme cases, it would reboot and then go into soft bootloops once, twice, even five times. This happened more often with overclocked kernels, and most people had to look for multiple kernels and setcpu settings that would give them a balance between speed and stability. It took some trying and some tweaking. Most people would eventually get a setup that was solid. Even with a "rock solid" kernel and ROM setup, there were very few who NEVER experienced a random reboot when running a custom ROM/kernel. It was just something that happened. The other major issue people saw were force closes of apps. These were extremely common as well, but usually addressed more easily. Your setup was considered stable if you were confident that you could do all of your phone's functions without getting FC's and you weren't going to get a reboot 99% of the time. You could rely on it not to do anything unexpected.
I have, admittedly, not tested every ROM that exists for the MT4GS. I probably haven't tested half of them. I have however, tested most of the later releases with the exception of XMC's Jellybean. What I have found, however, is that out of all the ROMs I have tested for this device, each and every one one of them has met my personal definition of stable. I've never seen a random reboot on the MT4GS. If I see a FC, it's because I failed to clear data and cache before flashing something, forgot to flash or flashed the wrong version of gapps, or I'm trying to get something working that wasn't included in the ROM. It's for this reason that I really don't know how to respond accurately when someone asks something like "what's the most stable ROM for this phone?" or "I saw this particular ROM, can anyone tell me how stable it is?"
So I have two requests. The first is for anyone who cares to read all of this and answer. I'd like to ask you, if you are asking about how "stable" a rom is, what do you mean? Are you asking about whether it has bugs? They all have a bug list of what's working and what's not. Are you asking about whether it has a certain feature fully working? Once again, that's in the works/ doesn't work info usually including in the first post about the ROM.
Request 1:
Answer me this - What does "stable" mean to you?
Request 2:
When considering or just looking for info on a ROM and you have a question about this or that, be specific. If I've checked into a ROM, I very well might have an answer for you. If you just ask whether or not it's "stable", I don't know what you're asking
I can see where you're coming from.
Personally, stability for me is a rom that works well enough where the phone isn't bugged out entirely (has over 80% of the phone's default settings working such as calling or getting into e-mail, etc.).
In general, there are others who request too much and want utter perfection. No rom is ever going to be perfect, regardless of the stage of the rom (alpha, beta, release candidate).
Sent from my myTouch_4G_Slide using xda premium
To me a "stable" ROM is one where all of the phone's functions work as designed, meaning the camera, bluetooth, wifi, keyboard, etc. all function without having to do anything extraordinary. Also, the ROM itself doesn't require extraordinary measures to perform common functions and doesn't FC or random-boot. I can accept a few minor glitches, even stock ROMs from HTC have those. But, for my overall needs, I currently run only a stock-based ROM because I absolutely need the stability and all functions (especially the camera and stable wifi). This is my ONLY phone, I don't have another mobile nor a landline, so stability is #1 priority.
I've waited a long time for your post.
...and I agree with everything you've said thus far in principle.
The concept of stable is in and of itself a dynamic thing in a place like this under the many varied intentions of the people developing anything here.
Consider that in many cases things are made as examples, or proof of concept. Such things may be deemed stable by the creator on the particular proof, yet be unstable for other uses.
In many cases, such things are outlined by the developer and the bounds determining stability vary widely from project to project, and developer to developer.
In the retail world of say, phone sales, and the manufacturers guarantee against defects, the business world is held to a certain threshold of accountability for providing a working product.
For us here, there is no money involved - people aren't paying for a product, and so lose at most up time with the device while it gets sorted out. The total loss of the device itself, as in hard brick, due not to user error but to developer error is where I would say the minimum standard of stability lies.
That bears, in my eyes, the closest relation to the business world standard of a manufacturers guarantee against defects. Buggy software, and the clarification thereof being the topic to pick apart - i'd like to get a consensus of how many other people feel that simply not hard-bricking the device due to developer error is the complete polar opposite of:
karri0n said:
...
that coveted and rare specimen - the :victory:Stable Release.:victory:
...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
...where the quote is in-context of being a final, finished product.
The minimum threshold being the easier end of the debate to reach agreement on and build our understanding from.
....
So how does a developer get to stable projects?
Drawing a parallel from the manufacturing industry, the answer is quality control.
If your business is running assembly lines of product, at the end of the line needs to be a certain amount of quality control before shipping. Else the product could vary widely in stated ability and function. A shop with little to no quality control could be one equivalent to an unstable release.
This points us in a direction in the determination of stability - the comparable equivalent from our point of view is testing. You have to test your product (project) before sharing, else you don't know if it will work right.
Unlike an assembly line where testing is done on a random small sampling of pieces, a developer must rigorously test and retest the project (product) to ensure stability and reliability of function.
Of course, this begs the question of the standards involved in testing.
Ever seen this movie? The Pentagon Wars
It's a riot - but also illustrates the importance of standards in testing.
To us one way, arguably the most important way, is developing a consistent method of testing to properly evaluate the desired results.
Consider my first project of involvement at XDA was in understanding the differences in MicroSD cards for running CM7 booted off the Sdcard and not the internal memory of a device. Some cards were downright buttery smooth and amazing, other cards were downright impossible to work with. They were directly found to be the culprit of force closes, if it could be run at all.
Once we determined that there was a specific brand that could be consistently counted on to perform to spec (through a massive posting of speed test results by ever so many members of the community!!! :highfive: ) - I set about trying to determine how accurate the posted information was.
This thread: A Closer Look At MicroSD and Reader Speed
...was primarily established to determine how much the type of card reader used skewed the testing results.
Granted, i'm biased based on having written the article, but I would consider that project to be an example of rigorous standards of testing for a particular piece of information.
I use this example to make the point of stability. In this case it directly equates to validity of results. By recording all of the data, publishing all of the data, people can point out where my math may be wrong if i've made a mistake based on calculations of the raw published data.
( just like people can offer suggestions on published open-source code )
...or incorporate the results into further testing of their own - based on the validity ( stability ) of the data.
Another example of what I would consider trying to achieve a "stable release" of an answer to a question through rigorous testing: My first real doubleshot contribution.
So I put forth those two projects of mine to illustrate what I consider stable releases of information. If not, explain why?
So a stable release not only is important from a user perspective, but also from an open-source developers perspective.
How solid is the code(knowledge, information, etc...) being built on, if a coding (or other...) project? Is the code you are nudging in a direction you think would be interesting buggy to start with?
Is your own new code buggy to start with?
Do you just throw it out there and keep working with it until it works? Do you take the time to ensure it works to the best of your ability before releasing?
Both are very valid approaches - some radical concepts are seen to reality much more quickly because the incomplete thought was tossed into cyberspace to grow to maturity.
The developers ability to relay the type of project it is, and the expectations of use can in fact create the business world equivalent of 'buyer beware' in the context of placing the onus of determining stability on the end user.
Because stability really depends on perspective.
Saying that something is a daily-driver, i'd use it everyday kind of thing is most akin to the:
karri0n said:
...
that coveted and rare specimen - the :victory:Stable Release.:victory:
...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
...that we are trying to define as the upper end of finished.
There again though, this varies based on perspective.
Pretend a large enough user base decided they didn't care about not having any bluetooth ability. Along come some ROMs that don't include that function. They state such, and otherwise have bugs on a very individual user level basis, if at all.
To that user-base, those ROMs are stable. What about you? You lose your bluetooth headset and can't do without that. Being as bluetooth is a functional piece of equipment within the device, any ROM without it is technically unstable. Can we agree with this?
Stability can also be defined, at least in part, by a developers ability and attention to resolve issues "Immediately, if not sooner". This becomes a determination of stability based on the developers ability and timeliness in resolving issues.
Otherwise stable software can become corrupted through interaction with other code that doesn't agree with it. There are a lot of apps out there, and Android is an environment allowing for much more freedom then the app store.
Due to the increase of involvement of chaos theory throughout the Android environment, I'd put forth that the stability of any software is in part tied to the developers attention to unforeseen interactions due to the scope of Android at large.
Here again, is another example - by this definition:
"Bulletproof was more stable when I was actively working on it - before I had to take a leave of absence." During that leave time, the ROM is less stable then it was before, because any new problems aren't attended to.
But we can say that not only the level of attention, but the quality of that attention is important too.
A consistent voluntary lack of desire in chasing down new bugs and fixing them could be seen as the equivalent of that crappy customer service call. Maybe you just exceeded the developers interest in the project, and to that developer it was stable for it's intentions at the time, and has moved on.
From one perspective, the project was completely stable. From another, quite the opposite.
There again, you have developers moving on to other phones, or using projects as stepping stones to other goals. We would need to agree to be able to define something as "stable to a point" if the project was brought so far forwards before the developer left it behind for others to build on.
Sometimes while building bulletproof I threw out stability and claims/remarks thereof in order to challenge the community to define what it was to me.
In the end, stability to me correlates to the endless anal attention to detail - on all fronts. To write clean code, to properly wipe and prepare the device, and the burden of utilizing a stable product rests with both the producer and the user - even if the only user is the producer.
Given the many facets of 'Stability' in trying to define it - how accurately can we do so?
I look forward to the postings on this thought experiment.
How big is big?
I'd bet that the word "stable" means something slightly different to nearly everyone. As an active user that tinkers with their installation a lot "stable" means no more than a 1 problem that requires a reset every week or two. Different usage would mean different definitions. Another user on my account that primarily uses his smart phone for calls won't tolerate more than 1 problem a month and for him, even that is frustrating. For emergency personnel any problem that prevents phone usage would be way too many.
The word also has different meanings for different products. I wouldn't consider a router that has more than 1 or 2 problems a year stable. Commercial communications equipment I've worked with was deployed in environments where it was expected to run at least 2 years without a problem. It was so well designed that occasionally it would run 5 or more years and the end users would forget where it was located and sometimes even that it existed at all.
I guess language just sucks for this type of thing.
All I want is a sense-less ROM that doesn't have random reboots and I'll stick with this phone for another year. As it is now I can't freaking stand it. That's with a totally fresh wipe and install of Virtuous Inquisition. I just don't buy into the idea that these phones aren't meant to download all the apps and games we can fit off the play store (not that I do... I HAVE in the past but I've barely reinstalled anything since my most recent wipe). The idea that installing things is going to lead to issues that aren't the ROMs fault is crazy. The stock ROM doesn't have these issues with my apps being installed. I only rooted to get rid of that dumb genius button (and getting rid of sense was the icing on the cake although not totally necessary).
"Stable" should refer to a ROM that works completely fine except for 2-4 functions that are not essential to smartphone daily function.
"Stable" unfortunately refers to a ROM that boots around here.
Sent from my HTC MyTouch 4G Slide using xda premium
polarbearmc said:
All I want is a sense-less ROM that doesn't have random reboots and I'll stick with this phone for another year. As it is now I can't freaking stand it. That's with a totally fresh wipe and install of Virtuous Inquisition. I just don't buy into the idea that these phones aren't meant to download all the apps and games we can fit off the play store (not that I do... I HAVE in the past but I've barely reinstalled anything since my most recent wipe). The idea that installing things is going to lead to issues that aren't the ROMs fault is crazy. The stock ROM doesn't have these issues with my apps being installed. I only rooted to get rid of that dumb genius button (and getting rid of sense was the icing on the cake although not totally necessary).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I can't say I've seen any problems like you are describing. I only used Vinq for a very short time, before I realized that wifi calling didn't work on it. CM9 a5 does not have any random reboots and has more features than Vinq working. That being said, I haven't heard of anyone facng random reboots using Vinq. if I had to guess, I would say it's related to the way Vinq tries to patch some elements of Sense and some elements of AOSP together, and they just don't get along. If it were me, I would move to cm9. I don't like sense's remnants tainting up my device, especially if they're going to lead to problems. the ONLY exception to this is the stock DoubleShot camera I would enjoy having that, but not if it meant that I had to run sense libs and it started causing conflicts with other parts of my AOSP.
Hello,
I made that account in order write about some things that I’m annoyed of or which I find very alarming. I’m sure there are some other people in here, who feel the same. I think it’s time to change something about it. I know some of you might be not interested in that and many people just want to get CM12 as fast as possible. This people should maybe not take part of this. To each man his own. I do understand that but this is about changing CM11 to a REAL “Daily Driver”, where everything works right and stable (at least the device-independent things).
This is about the following:
For many mobile phones like the well known Samsung Galaxy Models will be a Kitkat for real the last “halfway functioning” system. Also there has been put a lot of work into CM11, which a have a lot of respect for. Newly Cyanogenmod got a company and as such this Custom Rom is totally different than others – which do their work completely non-paid and voluntary e.g. Omnirom. As a company you have, except of making a lot of money, some responsibilities. You have to place a working product on the marked and I appeal here and today for calling in this responsibility or rather to introduce CM to move form there previous “Kindergarden” to a CM11 which is made perfect. After all Cyanogenmod as a company benefits of us using CM11 (the Community/Open source Project) on your mobile phones. We users are the best Beta-Testers and if CM just doesn’t fix bugs it is not better than Samsung.
Everyday we are complaining about producers like Samsung, because they e.g. do not bring out a 4.4 for the S3. But they at least perform their obligations somehow and continue improving and fixing 4.3. Anyway it (mostly) gets a real functioning product. CM should be interested in satisfying us with this/their product (CM11/s; Oneplus one). Even if we don’t actually have Oneplus one now we are ALL potential, future costumers! And nearby the most buy a Oneplus one BECAUSE they feel confident with CM and their Android Rom! Unfortunately in reality CM11 is far away from real stability and I don’t mean features, which are hardwarenear and sources for drivers like the S3 camera are needed, but completely normal features in the system.
If you only use a few Apps a few times then the current CM11 will work for you and it is usable, but as soon as you need something which is rarely used or which is more complicated you will find bugs. Although, this could be different.
I think it’s shocking that I often read when people are swearing “why should we want Android 5.0 if not even Android 4.4 is working stable!” (Look at the people from N7000, who have not even a M-Release from CM11). But no one is doing anything against it. CM should know that there are people who want stability! Please note that I’m talking about device-independent features. Especially because CM11 current is the BASIS for the CM11S, which is the system for Oneplus one! But what does the community see? The “CM12 roadmap” in which they are talking about: “freezing” CM11 and focusing on CM12. No, that can’t be. Every lifeblood-Custom-Rom maybe could get away with that (even Omni tries to go on with 4.4 for older devices as a “long-term-project”), but no new, real organization. Some may argument and say that with CM10.2 it has been the same, that with the first Nightlys or in general at the beginning of CM11 the final has been there after a very short time, but CM 10.2 as we all know, from past developers who left CM and now work for Omnirom, never had gone through as a stable. They just wanted it to seem like that in order to get sponsors and to show with the statistics, which CM introduced at that time, how many people already use CM. And the i9300 practically is the most used device in that case!
I have posted this post on November the 22nd 2014(as abruptly the Nightlys from CM11 stood still) in a German Android Forum. On the 24th of November 2014 all the Nightlys suddenly worked again, but if you look at the most Changes you could think that CM had not interest in creating a stable OS or a really stable CM and they are only trying to make it seem like they would still work on that. (Changes like the design template file or adjusting readmes).
Nevertheless there are still many bugs and some elementary features are missing! That can’t be. The worst is, that CM doesn’t get things straight for the community. I can understand if the creators don’t want to have any pressure because many people are asking for appointments but at least they should get the things straight concerning if and how long CM11 should be supported! ESPECIALLY if CM bet on that with their Oneplus One!
I have started to work on this on November the 22nd 2014 and reported about 40 bugs and maybe needed but simply to integrate features in the CM Bugtracker JIRA. I commit that I have never done this before. I do have enough other things to do and I always thought the creators would take care of that or anyone else would report the problem. But apparently this won’t happen. In order to prohibit a fiasco like CM10.2, should we all take care of it NOW!
I will post a list of bugs and eventually some useful and first of all realisable features in the course of this theme. Some of them I already have reported –but the most of them have been closed again. One of them was a appeal to CM and it said that they should get CM11 ready and stable – this Bug of course has been closed immediately and without actual statement.
I want to ask you to vote for all these things. If you have bugs yourself and never have been reported such please make an account on JIRA, it is easy and doesn’t take much time. Even if it’s just in order to vote for my bugs and features later. It would be nice to spread this and the text in JIRA, in other Android / CM-Forums and in social networks in order to have a real group or better sent a link or the post itself to some devs of cyanogenmod so that they are knowing about the problem and can take action on this.
Please don’t see this as agitation or something like that. I have great respect to the creators and their achievements! But CM now is a company and they geared to their (potential) customers. Without us making noise CM will concentrate on CM12 and we all have (again), a half-finished “gerfrickel”-Sytem. Also think that all the improvements in CM will get back to the Custom Roms.
Willingly you can send me your bugs, ideas or suggestions per PM here but better post it here or write it down to the JIRA bugtrakcer. The more, the better!
For so many Smartphones the CM11 is the last thing which they will be seeing more or less stable without an unbelievable reduced battery power. If we don’t do something now, the game will be replayed with CM12. And don’t hope that it will be different there. A really STABLE Custom Rom – that is missing somehow. That’s at least what I think and if read in the forums now, there are many others who think the same…
I hope on active cooperation, feedbacks and opinions on that and ask for not deleting this thread but eventually moving it to the right place (maybe a seperate section about android in general?) and make it sticky for all people to see. I hope we can find some way here to CM changing his mind about working on their custom rom and supporting CM11 for some time until it's a really stable product (maybe until first or second “stable” M-release of CM12 is out). If you want a stable CM11, please write it down here!:good::victory:
BTW: I am from Germany, sorry for my maybe bad English.
Chris
Stability depends on device. CM11 is superbly stable on a Nexus 4 or 5, but could be extremely buggy on some random cheap Chinese phone bought from aliexpress because lots of people use and develop for Nexuses, but only a handful of people will be working on that Chinese one. There are also often hardware issues.
Thanks for your reply, i totally agree with you but if you have rightly read my topic you can read that I dont write about device specific features. If I can reproduce a handfull bugs everytime, on every CM11 rom, than that are real bugs on which CM should take care. I will also show some here but I need time to tanslate it here and to write it.
I also totally agree if a device have no maintainer it cant be tested and made fully working - but the problem most of the time is that there are A LOT of people who make their own kernels, own custom roms on base of CM11 and they COULD be maintainer of the device but dont want it or cant do it because of CM itself. If you look how CM is treating the people and not comunicate with them you will understand why there is a lack of maintainer and so many people which COULD be a maintainer because of the knowledge. But that is a other topic. CM need to change his way to talk with the community. If there are bugs, which are easy to reproduce and they will be reported to bugtracker and CM is closing it because the log is not attached, because the reporter CANT BRINGT IT, BUT the bug can be EASILY reproduced WITHOUT A LOG, than it is CMs fault. People want to help and they (CM) close the bugreports. It should be in their interest to test every bugreport to MAYBE find a potential bug. Also look at the bugtracker, there are issues which were reported for years and CM dont care about it. Look for the lack of using the calendar without a google account for example. On the other hand side: They add features which nobody wanted to have and mostly the people dont use. where is ther sense here?
Personally, I quit using any cm or cm based ROMs on my nexus because it seemed to lack speed and stability compared to stock or aosp based ROMs.
I had better luck with early custom lollipop ROMs than with cm. Right now I'm using slimkat until black themed lollipop ROMs are stable and bug free.
So basically, I agree that cm should be more stable. But I don't really care cause there are lots of good options out there instead of cm.
Sent from my Nexus 5 using XDA Free mobile app
Ow mannnnn .. Thank you so much !!! you are pro !!!
Well first thing is that bugs happen when you use open source drivers and software. This is because it is not coded just for a single device like the OEM drivers and software is.
Second CM is not required to do anything. That includes fixing bugs that they don't care about.
Next. And to be flatly honest they have no reason to talk to the community. Can't blame them as most have nothing more productive to say then "duh this is busted" why talk to those people when you can talk to people that can offer advise and maybe help salve an issue. Nor are they required to post any update at all.
Devs have the right to post a build in the OP and never post support, leaving all support up to the user's.
It doesn't matter if you can produce the error. They have their rules about posting bug reports. If you don't follow them and it gets closed without it even being looked at well then that's your fault.
If you want stable then stay stock. Or learn to fix it yourself. There is no obligation for anyone to even touch aosp based code. Even Google has most stopped updating those apps and files.
Now as for you saying device independent issues. The issue here is that one device could be rebooting every ten min but other devices don't do it.
The only device as a company they need to worry about is the one that sells with their roms. All others are hobby projects and treated as such.
zelendel said:
Well first thing is that bugs happen when you use open source drivers and software. This is because it is not coded just for a single device like the OEM drivers and software is. .
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Firstly thanks for your feedback
I dont understand what you want to say. If bugs happen and when is not the content of the topic. I am using linux on my workstation and server itself, everyday. (Linus Torvalds is also talking to the people). I know that bugs can happen and open source drivers and software can have bugs. I do not blame people for this. I do respect their work! I blame people for activly ignoring bugs which are easy to fix (atleast for this people) and activly ignoring bugs in addition to don't communicate why they don't care about this bugs which they could easily fix. This is a human fault. I also have written in my text above that I DO NOT MEAN DEVICE SPECIFIC BUGS. So I don't really understand whats your point here, sorry.
zelendel said:
Second CM is not required to do anything. That includes fixing bugs that they don't care about.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes, in theory they dont have to do anything. But we are all human. We have a moral commitment. Also I think every group who wants to make their custom rom succesfull, want to make the users happy. If not so, why CM is releasing this to the community? Is it forbidden to say my and many peoples opinion here? If I follow your logic of arguing then we all were not allowed to blame samsung for their bad software and bad support, right? Or specially if something is for free we don't have the right to critisize things? Why? If you create something, you have to count on the fact that people will complain about things. If the people complain with arguments and everyone respect each other that is totally ok in my opinion. If that is too hard for the dev than he should maybe not release his work. So our world is working. Why you argue for a group which doesn't speak to you or here forself? I don't know if you would care about if you were one of those people who wait for years that a bug or improvement is realized which is important for you.
zelendel said:
Next. And to be flatly honest they have no reason to talk to the community. Can't blame them as most have nothing more productive to say then "duh this is busted" why talk to those people when you can talk to people that can offer advise and maybe help salve an issue. Nor are they required to post any update at all.
Devs have the right to post a build in the OP and never post support, leaving all support up to the user's.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
if a human being thinks like this, he should really start to think about himself. It is a very arogant attitude against other people. If a person thinks "I have no reason to talk to you", then I would think this person is not really a nice and good human. People like you describe, they think that they are better than all other and that is not a good attitude. I totaly agree that it is not helpfull if someone says: "duh this is busted", but I and some other people report bugs, want to help, ALSO if they don't have the ability to develvop something on their own. But the point is the following: The people who are only complaining and say: "duh this is busted" are the people for who CM is making a software. They (CM) should care about them. They are mostly the people who BUY their Oneplus one. Why I don't talk to CM itself? You have written it here exactly: They "have no reason to talk to the community". So I am talking to the people here, the commnunity and looking for all this people who don't do anything because they think they are alone, can't do anything. The goal is to give the people of CM a reason to talk to the commnunity. This is a attempt to change their mind about their style of communication. and make CM11 fully stable.
zelendel said:
It doesn't matter if you can produce the error. They have their rules about posting bug reports. If you don't follow them and it gets closed without it even being looked at well then that's your fault.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
How easy is live, what? If so, then they should close the bugtracker. I was thinking the bugtracker is for the community to HELP CM finding bugs so that THEY can make the product better. This is an opensource project. They make money with the code at the end in form of "CM11S", which is CM11 + closed source apps. And I also understand that they want to make money with their work now. If an opensource project is making benefit in form of money without the need of beta testers because the community finds the bugs they should be HAPPY. But they do ignore it, they think they are above all. You say they: "dont have to talk to the community". Look for omnirom, look for other projects, they are gracefull if someone find a bug, can reporduce it. The devs can fix it. It makes the software better and better. Samsung has to pay people for this. I totally understand if there is a bug which is to repoduce, the dev test for it, can't find it and order the log in addition from the bugreporer. Thats a real reason. But they (CM) dont read this bug. They dont care. Do you want to say that's a good attitude to the users and the community? I don't think so. We can talk with each other.
zelendel said:
If you want stable then stay stock. Or learn to fix it yourself. There is no obligation for anyone to even touch aosp based code. Even Google has most stopped updating those apps and files.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sorry, but thats not a real argument. Then we all would be on stock, no one should be allowed to say: "this could be better." That would be a bad world. It is not wrong to expect a stable product. Let it be opensource or propritary. In addition: Not everyone can code something and if so, not everyone has the time to do so. This people have created the maybe most famous custom rom. They SHOULD talk to the people who are using their software, who are all potential customers of their PRODUCT, the oneplus one. The product which makes USE of CM11. So if I am thinking about to buy it, I think about all blame samsung and I think about that CM11 is ignoring user bugreports AND they "don't need to talk to the people". Not a good image, or do your think so? Samsung is not giving 4.4 to the i9300 for example, BUT they make 4.3 better and they make it STABLE and FULL. I don't like samsung for their software and other things, but it is working. But people like CM are blaming them for their support, so me and other people, we have the right to blame CM for THEIR support, or not? Also think about freedom of speech.
What google does is a other thing. Google is also making enough crap and I have also my optionion about it. I also dont install google apps for myself. But google and CM are a different story and thats not the topic of this thread. Also I don't think that it is really nice to say to the people: "Eat what we give you and shut up otherwise you don't have anything.". But you are saying this between the words.
zelendel said:
Now as for you saying device independent issues. The issue here is that one device could be rebooting every ten min but other devices don't do it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I dont understand what is the point here? I have clearly written: "Device independend". I didn't writte about random reboots. I totally agree with you that this are a other sort of problem. But if you tap on a "private number" on dialer/phone statistics and will get a FC, and that on M12 and also on the newest nightly, also on 5 different devices, you report that and the mod of the bugtracker dont care about it and simply lock down the bugreport and the dev team totally IGNORE the problem because no log was added (because maybe the reporter dont have a official supported device because they also close the bugreport if this is not?), but they only had to test what the reporter described, then someone can clearly say two things: First thing is that the bug is easily to reproduce and it is device indepently. And second thing is that the CM team or at least the mod of the bugtracker really DONT CARE about the bug existence if he is simply closing down the bug without looking for it or test to repoduce it and THEN, if it is NOT easily to reproduce, order a log from the bugreporter. We are people, we can talk to each other. There is NO NEED to simply close things down, don't community and at the end write down: "This is CM11 final, look at our bugtracker: there are NO BUGS!". Yes, if you don't care about the bugs people report then yes - it is bugfree. Nice way of make something stable. Like chainfire wrote about CM10.2 to the time he left CM Team.
zelendel said:
The only device as a company they need to worry about is the one that sells with their roms. All others are hobby projects and treated as such.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree with you, but have I written something other? I have written nearly the same. CM11 is the basis of CM11S, which is THE SYSTEM THEY SELL on Oneplus one, their PRODUCT.
But in theory if someone, like the creator of "nameless rom". make HW composer working for the i9300 or Teamasek make a camera restart workaround for it and they (CM) DONT CARE about it for example, they know it, people report it. They ignore it. Then something is really wrong here. People like creator of "nameless rom" or Temasek are creating their own custom rom on basis of CM11. They (CM) could easily say: „we have no time, sorry.“ Or: "it is not stable right now, we will wait for it." or simply: „No, we can't do it because....“ Then people totally UNDERSTAND it. But they only say like you said: "We have not to talk to you." nice, nor? Everyone is talking to the people, why they think they don't need that?
And to make it clear here: I am dont fighting against CM, I really like their art of making a rom. I like their software, I want to have and sell my customers a oneplus one if it is out to the global market. I want to make CM better. I dont say look at XXX rom, they make all right, then I could go to a other rom like someone in the thread posted before. I am like this person, but I want to change something and want to help CM so that people dont all leave CM or make their own custom rom. If we would all help us togehter, every device of CM would have a maintainer. The world would be right and nice. But CM makes it to difficult to help. But why? They win, they loose nothing. Let's make them change their mind so that things will get better.
By the way: Oneplus is looking for a other rom for their oneplus one. Also there are articles about: "the flaggschiff killer kills themself". They have problems. CM11/S is not really stable on the oneplus one. Oppo is looking for a other software, CM is working on CM12, it won't make the things better. But CM is building on the oneplus two. It will make it worse. Why all the way begin new and dont make things fully stable? So in theory it would be right to further work on CM11 until it is really stable and also bring the oneplus one on the global market for real and support it some years really. Otherwise they have newest android but it is less stable than software of samsung. If you or anyone else think I am wrong than write that to CM, they can easily write down the facts here in this topic if they care about their users and the most of their further customers. So back to the topic. How can we make things on CM11 better and change CMs mind? chris
XXchrisXX said:
Firstly thanks for your feedback
I dont understand what you want to say. If bugs happen and when is not the content of the topic. I am using linux on my workstation and server itself, everyday. (Linus Torvalds is also talking to the people). I know that bugs can happen and open source drivers and software can have bugs. I do not blame people for this. I do respect their work! I blame people for activly ignoring bugs which are easy to fix (atleast for this people) and activly ignoring bugs in addition to don't communicate why they don't care about this bugs which they could easily fix. This is a human fault. I also have written in my text above that I DO NOT MEAN DEVICE SPECIFIC BUGS. So I don't really understand whats your point here, sorry.
Think its so easy then try it your self. You seem to think anything about this is easy. Until you try to do it yourself you have no room to talk about it being easy.
Yes, in theory they dont have to do anything. But we are all human. We have a moral commitment. Also I think every group who wants to make their custom rom succesfull, want to make the users happy. If not so, why CM is releasing this to the community? Is it forbidden to say my and many peoples opinion here? If I follow your logic of arguing then we all were not allowed to blame samsung for their bad software and bad support, right? Or specially if something is for free we don't have the right to critisize things? Why? If you create something, you have to count on the fact that people will complain about things. If the people complain with arguments and everyone respect each other that is totally ok in my opinion. If that is too hard for the dev than he should maybe not release his work. So our world is working. Why you argue for a group which doesn't speak to you or here forself? I don't know if you would care about if you were one of those people who wait for years that a bug or improvement is realized which is important for you.
You have the right to blame them if you want but then they also have the right not to care. There are many bugs that I have had on AOSP for years. They have not been fixed and I cant fix them so guess what, I dont complain.
if a human being thinks like this, he should really start to think about himself. It is a very arogant attitude against other people. If a person thinks "I have no reason to talk to you", then I would think this person is not really a nice and good human. People like you describe, they think that they are better than all other and that is not a good attitude. I totaly agree that it is not helpfull if someone says: "duh this is busted", but I and some other people report bugs, want to help, ALSO if they don't have the ability to develvop something on their own. But the point is the following: The people who are only complaining and say: "duh this is busted" are the people for who CM is making a software. They (CM) should care about them. They are mostly the people who BUY their Oneplus one. Why I don't talk to CM itself? You have written it here exactly: They "have no reason to talk to the community". So I am talking to the people here, the commnunity and looking for all this people who don't do anything because they think they are alone, can't do anything. The goal is to give the people of CM a reason to talk to the commnunity. This is a attempt to change their mind about their style of communication. and make CM11 fully stable.
A nice and good human? Really?!?! What world do you live in. Alot of the best Devs here are antisocial people. They dont like other people let alone people cant follow simple instructions.
Look People did it themselves. CM used to be active in the community but then people kept doing just what you have stated. Not posting proper bug reports with logs that are needed. (if the dev says post a log with the bug report, this is not an option). The one plus one is a the joke of the Dev world. Most devs already sold theirs and will not go back.
How easy is live, what? If so, then they should close the bugtracker. I was thinking the bugtracker is for the community to HELP CM finding bugs so that THEY can make the product better. This is an opensource project. They make money with the code at the end in form of "CM11S", which is CM11 + closed source apps. And I also understand that they want to make money with their work now. If an opensource project is making benefit in form of money without the need of beta testers because the community finds the bugs they should be HAPPY. But they do ignore it, they think they are above all. You say they: "dont have to talk to the community". Look for omnirom, look for other projects, they are gracefull if someone find a bug, can reporduce it. The devs can fix it. It makes the software better and better. Samsung has to pay people for this. I totally understand if there is a bug which is to repoduce, the dev test for it, can't find it and order the log in addition from the bugreporer. Thats a real reason. But they (CM) dont read this bug. They dont care. Do you want to say that's a good attitude to the users and the community? I don't think so. We can talk with each other.
Yes it is. As long as people follow the proper bug reporting steps. Yeah and if you report some bugs to many devs without the proper logs they will ignore you as well. Many devs are moving over to the bug tracker just like CM and will require the same logs. This is troubleshooting 101. If you cant even get a log then you should rethink using custom roms.
Sorry, but thats not a real argument. Then we all would be on stock, no one should be allowed to say: "this could be better." That would be a bad world. It is not wrong to expect a stable product. Let it be opensource or propritary. In addition: Not everyone can code something and if so, not everyone has the time to do so. This people have created the maybe most famous custom rom. They SHOULD talk to the people who are using their software, who are all potential customers of their PRODUCT, the oneplus one. The product which makes USE of CM11. So if I am thinking about to buy it, I think about all blame samsung and I think about that CM11 is ignoring user bugreports AND they "don't need to talk to the people". Not a good image, or do your think so? Samsung is not giving 4.4 to the i9300 for example, BUT they make 4.3 better and they make it STABLE and FULL. I don't like samsung for their software and other things, but it is working. But people like CM are blaming them for their support, so me and other people, we have the right to blame CM for THEIR support, or not? Also think about freedom of speech.
Ill be honest and this is the thought with alot of Devs. Most normal users SHOULD stay on stock. Saying Samsung is stable is too funny. Most Devs have left those devices all together as well. Once again you dont post the proper and requested logs with the bug reprot expect to be ignored. As for freedom of speech Refer to the link below. Your on a private site. The right doenst apply.
What google does is a other thing. Google is also making enough crap and I have also my optionion about it. I also dont install google apps for myself. But google and CM are a different story and thats not the topic of this thread. Also I don't think that it is really nice to say to the people: "Eat what we give you and shut up otherwise you don't have anything.". But you are saying this between the words.
If your not part of the solution then your part of the problem. And that is with proper bug reports and logs.
I dont understand what is the point here? I have clearly written: "Device independend". I didn't writte about random reboots. I totally agree with you that this are a other sort of problem. But if you tap on a "private number" on dialer/phone statistics and will get a FC, and that on M12 and also on the newest nightly, also on 5 different devices, you report that and the mod of the bugtracker dont care about it and simply lock down the bugreport and the dev team totally IGNORE the problem because no log was added (because maybe the reporter dont have a official supported device because they also close the bugreport if this is not?), but they only had to test what the reporter described, then someone can clearly say two things: First thing is that the bug is easily to reproduce and it is device indepently. And second thing is that the CM team or at least the mod of the bugtracker really DONT CARE about the bug existence if he is simply closing down the bug without looking for it or test to repoduce it and THEN, if it is NOT easily to reproduce, order a log from the bugreporter. We are people, we can talk to each other. There is NO NEED to simply close things down, don't community and at the end write down: "This is CM11 final, look at our bugtracker: there are NO BUGS!". Yes, if you don't care about the bugs people report then yes - it is bugfree. Nice way of make something stable. Like chainfire wrote about CM10.2 to the time he left CM Team.
If the device is not supported then they shouldnt be posting a report at all. Do you have any idea how long it would take to "test" each bug report? The log is much faster and more useful. To many people are installing stupid stuff like xposed that randomly causes code crashs. This is where the logs will show this. If it is bug free on their devices then they can call it bug free. In the end it is all how it runs on their devices.
I agree with you, but have I written something other? I have written nearly the same. CM11 is the basis of CM11S, which is THE SYSTEM THEY SELL on Oneplus one, their PRODUCT.
But in theory if someone, like the creator of "nameless rom". make HW composer working for the i9300 or Teamasek make a camera restart workaround for it and they (CM) DONT CARE about it for example, they know it, people report it. They ignore it. Then something is really wrong here. People like creator of "nameless rom" or Temasek are creating their own custom rom on basis of CM11. They (CM) could easily say: „we have no time, sorry.“ Or: "it is not stable right now, we will wait for it." or simply: „No, we can't do it because....“ Then people totally UNDERSTAND it. But they only say like you said: "We have not to talk to you." nice, nor? Everyone is talking to the people, why they think they don't need that?
If they are basing their rom off of CM then they accept it. People did it themselves. As already stated. You really must be new to this.
And to make it clear here: I am dont fighting against CM, I really like their art of making a rom. I like their software, I want to have and sell my customers a oneplus one if it is out to the global market. I want to make CM better. I dont say look at XXX rom, they make all right, then I could go to a other rom like someone in the thread posted before. I am like this person, but I want to change something and want to help CM so that people dont all leave CM or make their own custom rom. If we would all help us togehter, every device of CM would have a maintainer. The world would be right and nice. But CM makes it to difficult to help. But why? They win, they loose nothing. Let's make them change their mind so that things will get better.
To be honest alot of people couldnt careless about CM. Any real team uses aosp as a base and not CM. This is due to CM changing the base AOSP code to fit what they think android should be. To me it sounds like you have a device that was dropped by the team and are now mad about it.
By the way: Oneplus is looking for a other rom for their oneplus one. Also there are articles about: "the flaggschiff killer kills themself". They have problems. CM11/S is not really stable on the oneplus one. Oppo is looking for a other software, CM is working on CM12, it won't make the things better. But CM is building on the oneplus two. It will make it worse. Why all the way begin new and dont make things fully stable? So in theory it would be right to further work on CM11 until it is really stable and also bring the oneplus one on the global market for real and support it some years really. Otherwise they have newest android but it is less stable than software of samsung. If you or anyone else think I am wrong than write that to CM, they can easily write down the facts here in this topic if they care about their users and the most of their further customers. So back to the topic. How can we make things on CM11 better and change CMs mind? chris
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Once again CM has not posted here in years. AOSP will never be completely stable. Deal with it. and a news flash the oneplusone 2 will not have CM. They have already signed a contract exclusive in some places with another company.
Now to end this. Here is a link. Have a good read.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=16682226&postcount=2441
Ok so I've read the cluster that is your post @XXchrisXX and I have to say a few things
First off, I'm probably the last person you would ever see saying anything remotely nice about CM but what's right is right....
1. There is no moral commitment or obligation or ANYTHING that CM (the open source side of things) has to follow. You are getting a FREE product. In exchange your feedback may or may not be useful to the developers and device maintainers. You signed no contract. You didn't agree to anything with CyanogenMod or any of it's developers or maintainers. XDA-Developers is and always has been a AT-YOUR-OWN-RISK type of site.
As stated above, you can stick with the stock ROM from the OEM if you want stability and some kind of warranty.
2. There are two different sides of CM. There is the open source side which is what you're griping about and then there's the company, CM Inc.
One is run by volunteers and hundreds of contributors (Open Source side) and the other one is run by employees who are under contract (CM Inc). Don't confuse the two and think that you can hold the open source side to the same things you hold the company to.
Do many employees from CM Inc. contribute to the Open Source side? Yes, but that is a hobby. You want a warranty and someone to yell at for not fixing bugs? Go buy a One Plus One and get you a warranty, simple as that!
3. Who are you to tell them (the Open Source side of CM) what they can and can't do? You should be lucky that your device is even supported by CM or any AOSP based custom ROM.
You talk about Samsung and other OEMs but what you fail to realize is that most OEMs give you a one and done. They give you kitkat and that's it.........they TOO move on to bigger and better things.
Don't be foolish here and think that your device that's 3 years old is going to run KitKat like a champ. You say you "understand" about open source drivers but yet continue to argue your pointless cluster because you think that CM (the open source side) should behave like the company.
YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND! If you did, you would of never made this post and thank your lucky stars that your device even got on CM's radar for support.
Again, I know CM inc has done some messed up things in the past and are arguably run by a circus but what I hate more then them is ungrateful people like yourself.
Stop while you're ahead @XXchrisXX
What... the... fk...
Seriously... It's obvious you've violated XDA's "search before posting" rules.
Now, you've given enough information that you're obviously a haxxinos4 user. (You mention N7000 so probably a 4210, but I sort of recall seeing something indicating you might have a 4412 device...)
The only devices that actually have received benefits from Cyngn corporate are their "Cyanogen OS" devices. Oppo N1 and OnePlus One. Those are the two devices where Cyngn corporate staff have NDAs signed with the OEM and Qualcomm (and other suppliers) to fully support every piece of hardware within the device. Now, if your complaint is about those devices (which Cyngn HAS ****ed up too), you have a right to complain. But to be honest, you'll find little sympathy here since the Cyngn corporate guys and XDA don't really get along.
If you're a Haxxinos4 user, and actually PAID ATTENTION, you'd know that Samsung has continually bent the community over and ****ed them time and time again. (Especially in 2012, with the Superbrick fiasco and their broken promises at BABBQ 2012). You'd also know that basically everyone that USED to be a Haxxinos4 maintainer either retired from Android development or left CM after the Focal relicensing disaster. (And even after moving to Omni, Haxxinos4 is pretty much dead to most of us...)
So Mazda is right... While he (nor I) have any love for Cyngn (Kondick has blocked me on G+ for calling him out on various things back during the Focal relicensing fiasco - and I used to be the CM maintainer for multiple Haxxinos4 devices and the Oppo Find5)... Your post just reeks of "typical ungrateful user who can't even search to find the basic backstory of their device"...
Funny thing: Oppo N1 was Cyngn's first official device. Its predecessor, the Find 5, was entirely maintained by people who left CM to found Omni after the Focal relicensing fiasco. All of those people were former Haxxinos4 maintainers who were sick and tired of Samsung's bull**** already.
@XXchrisXX wow, you ungrateful twerp. If you don't like it, try another ROM. I'm anti CM after the things the company side did to the community, but they don't deserve this.
There are other ROMs that are more stable and have more features. Try those. Look at liquid smooth, omni, Dirty Unicorns... Way more options than just CM. But if you go to those Roms with this type of attitude expect zero support.
mazwoz said:
@XXchrisXX wow, you ungrateful twerp. If you don't like it, try another ROM. I'm anti CM after the things the company side did to the community, but they don't deserve this.
There are other ROMs that are more stable and have more features. Try those. Look at liquid smooth, omni, Dirty Unicorns... Way more options than just CM. But if you go to those Roms with this type of attitude expect zero support.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sorry to sound like a moron from left field, but what did CM do to the community? I've been out of the loop.
Saint Isaiah said:
Sorry to sound like a moron from left field, but what did CM do to the community? I've been out of the loop.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
They took the work of hundreds, forced people to relicense their work so that CM owned it, and then made millions on some contracts when they became a company. None of that money went to the people who spent years working on cm and helping them be what they are. It went to a few key people, and that's it. This people signed contracts with cm inc. Since then they have poached the lead developers from other ROMs to work with them, eliminating any possible competition.
mazwoz said:
They took the work of hundreds, forced people to relicense their work so that CM owned it, and then made millions on some contracts when they became a company. None of that money went to the people who spent years working on cm and helping them be what they are. It went to a few key people, and that's it. This people signed contracts with cm inc. Since then they have poached the lead developers from other ROMs to work with them, eliminating any possible competition.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Wow that's super ****ty! I'm guessing this is related to the work they did with the OnePlus One phone? Either way, thanks for the info.
Saint Isaiah said:
Sorry to sound like a moron from left field, but what did CM do to the community? I've been out of the loop.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Saint Isaiah said:
Wow that's super ****ty! I'm guessing this is related to the work they did with the OnePlus One phone? Either way, thanks for the info.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes and no, they did all of this before the OnePlus. The first CM phone was the Oppo N1, that contact came about a few months after this went down. Omni ROM was founded because of this.
Saint Isaiah said:
Sorry to sound like a moron from left field, but what did CM do to the community? I've been out of the loop.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I can't dig up a direct link currently, but do a search for "Focal relicensing"
I think there's a link to Guillaume's post on the issue from the CM wikipedia page, but I'm not sure.
Entropy512 said:
I can't dig up a direct link currently, but do a search for "Focal relicensing"
I think there's a link to Guillaume's post on the issue from the CM wikipedia page, but I'm not sure.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2451752
To the OP @XXchrisXX or is it @Noteguy? I am so confused. One of you has 1 post, the other one of you has 4 (all of them in here). Would the real OP PLEASE STAND UP????
That being said, it's quite obvious that you have nothing to offer this community except for whinging - and if you were the only one doing that on XDA then I would say the community should take note and listen to what you have to say. BUT - seeing as you're just another whiny user I think we can all, CM included, just ignore you.
I can't say anything more than what @Entropy512 and @Mazda has already said. You must be very young, because you seriously remind me of my kids sometimes. Get stuff for free, but still complain because its not 100% to your liking. Not sure about Germany, but here we call that ungrateful. Long ago I was not satisfied with the lack of development for my aging device, instead of calling out developers that work, have a family and spend what little free time they have giving me free stuff, I learned to develop myself as to not bother them. Its not plug and play. Most do this for themselves and share. Ranting will only cause them not to share. If you want to kill support for your device faster than the hurdles that are already present with trying to piece together the little bits of open source code we can use, then your on the right track. If you want continued support then sometimes a simple Thank you works wonders. Nobody is making a living off of this (open source side at least). Donations are nice, but I know first hand that both @Mazda and I have on certain occasions returned donations to users. We don't do it because of the money, we do it because its fun. Don't take the fun out of it is all I'm saying. Be grateful that you aren't stuck on OE jellybean or less software. You owe/need the development community more than the developers do, the sooner you realize that, the better off you'll be.
Is it me or is xda latly dying bit by bit?
Its like devs moved on to a new forum or something
Or did rooting of phones harder?
Lately not many custom roms either
Wesley_NL said:
Is it me or is xda latly dying bit by bit? Its like devs moved on to a new forum or something. Or did rooting of phones harder? Lately not many custom roms either
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm not an Administrator, Moderator or any type of xda-developers Representative but, the xda-developers does value member feedback and the following thread was created to provide a place for such feedback.
[All XDA Members] Feedback/Recommendations for XDA by Fallen Spartan
I wish you the best of luck!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I Am The Egg Man,
They Are The Egg Men.
I Am The Walrus!
Coo Coo Cachoo!
I DO NOT PROVIDE SUPPORT VIA PM UNLESS ASKED/REQUESTED BY MYSELF.
PLEASE KEEP IT IN THE THREADS WHERE EVERYONE CAN SHARE
Wesley_NL said:
Is it me or is xda latly dying bit by bit?
Its like devs moved on to a new forum or something
Or did rooting of phones harder?
Lately not many custom roms either
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
We are in an age where most of the developers live in areas where more and more devices have locked bootloaders and/or patched kernels that prevent most of the known methods from being useable on those devices. Some of these developers are on contracts with their mobile carrier which limits the new devices available to them as "free" upgrades from their carrier and most aren't going through the trouble of buying a device from another source to activate on their network. This limits the amount of development because they usually only develop for the devices they own.
Then you factor in that the various device communities here are growing which means we have more user/members complaining and demanding cool stuff for their devices and that leads to the developers being less likely to share their work just to avoid the hassle from whining members.
DO NOT CONTACT ME VIA PM TO RECEIVE HELP, YOU WILL BE IGNORED. KEEP IT IN THE THREADS WHERE EVERYONE CAN SHARE
Droidriven said:
We are in an age where most of the developers live in areas where more and more devices have locked bootloaders and/or patched kernels that prevent most of the known methods from being useable on those devices. Some of these developers are on contracts with their mobile carrier which limits the new devices available to them as "free" upgrades from their carrier and most aren't going through the trouble of buying a device from another source to activate on their network. This limits the amount of development because they usually only develop for the devices they own.
Then you factor in that the various device communities here are growing which means we have more user/members complaining and demanding cool stuff for their devices and that leads to the developers being less likely to share their work just to avoid the hassle from whining members.
DO NOT CONTACT ME VIA PM TO RECEIVE HELP, YOU WILL BE IGNORED. KEEP IT IN THE THREADS WHERE EVERYONE CAN SHARE
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I see well if i could dev i would,
even if ask allot,
but i try to help with knowledge i have,
i thought devs moved over to a new forum,
thats why i asked ,
because i keep an eye out what my next device will be since i want to stay rooted so i can do more with my device
A basic rom sucks specialy bloated once
Wesley_NL said:
I see well if i could dev i would,
even if ask allot,
but i try to help with knowledge i have,
i thought devs moved over to a new forum,
thats why i asked ,
because i keep an eye out what my next device will be since i want to stay rooted so i can do more with my device
A basic rom sucks specialy bloated once
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I feel the same way about development lately. I was just explaining a couple of factors that have influenced the situation.
DO NOT CONTACT ME VIA PM TO RECEIVE HELP, YOU WILL BE IGNORED. KEEP IT IN THE THREADS WHERE EVERYONE CAN SHARE
Droidriven said:
I feel the same way about development lately. I was just explaining a couple of factors that have influenced the situation.
DO NOT CONTACT ME VIA PM TO RECEIVE HELP, YOU WILL BE IGNORED. KEEP IT IN THE THREADS WHERE EVERYONE CAN SHARE
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I understand, but i thought it was only samsung where develop was dead but now that i scrolled for my nect device i noticed it was fairly quiet on xda
Wesley_NL said:
I understand, but i thought it was only samsung where develop was dead but now that i scrolled for my nect device i noticed it was fairly quiet on xda
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well...for some reason, Samsung and Verizon devices have, in the past, been where a large part of the development has been done. These are the ones that are mostly locked down, even the Verizon Pixel is locked when all the other Pixel devices aren't. Also, the newer android versions are getting more and more difficult to root. This is expected because the OEMs are constantly at work trying to find ways to prevent altering the devices, they don't consider us being the owners of the devices or software, we only pay for the privilege to "use" the devices and software.
There are plenty of other devices that are still supported and will be supported in the future
DO NOT CONTACT ME VIA PM TO RECEIVE HELP, YOU WILL BE IGNORED. KEEP IT IN THE THREADS WHERE EVERYONE CAN SHARE
Droidriven said:
Well...for some reason, Samsung and Verizon devices have, in the past, been where a large part of the development has been done. These are the ones that are mostly locked down, even the Verizon Pixel is locked when all the other Pixel devices aren't. Also, the newer android versions are getting more and more difficult to root. This is expected because the OEMs are constantly at work trying to find ways to prevent altering the devices, they don't consider us being the owners of the devices or software, we only pay for the privilege to "use" the devices and software.
There are plenty of other devices that are still supported and will be supported in the future
DO NOT CONTACT ME VIA PM TO RECEIVE HELP, YOU WILL BE IGNORED. KEEP IT IN THE THREADS WHERE EVERYONE CAN SHARE
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I figured as much specialy at samsungs, someday we will be at ios locks , no bt sharing , no usb otg, headphone jack removed to prevent hack via that way,
Its just sad , we already pay so much for our devices so why not give people the freedom to root or not,
its not like everyone root, its just a small amount maby 10% since most use iphones anyway,
chinese device will most likely stay unlocked i hope ,
the once like one plus, xaomi mi, and so , tbh i like to have vanilla as much as possible not 90% bloat apps with same purpose like samsung have sucks, only drain batt and use space and recourses,
I was aiming for one plus 5 but still not what i wanted, samsung still is closest except it's rom, i like to stay led screen as one of my personal features since i watch alot anime on the go, adaway/adblock is my main consern i hate those adds in apps and those popup adds, further a good touchwiz like the 6x6 with settings , although it don't work for me anymore so swapped to nova but nova is not realy like i want it to be , it was nice in the s3 times, sound mods that dont hurt my ears like dolby atmos and viper4android also one of the things i want to keep using , and root is a good thing to have specialy for account swap and reroll in games,
Tbh i liked nokia n900 with maemo/meego and its stereo build in speakers for when i don't wan't to use headphones, and its lovely psychal keyboard
Samsung is good for its nice devices and nearly bezzeless screen , if compare to a sony Atleast
Wesley_NL said:
I figured as much specialy at samsungs, someday we will be at ios locks , no bt sharing , no usb otg, headphone jack removed to prevent hack via that way,
Its just sad , we already pay so much for our devices so why not give people the freedom to root or not,
its not like everyone root, its just a small amount maby 10% since most use iphones anyway,
chinese device will most likely stay unlocked i hope ,
the once like one plus, xaomi mi, and so , tbh i like to have vanilla as much as possible not 90% bloat apps with same purpose like samsung have sucks, only drain batt and use space and recourses,
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is all opinion based. But reasonable opinions.
The Devs here at XDA arnt disappearing or doing any less developing for the majority. Instead the number of devices and different variants of those devices are growing so rapidly, that it lessens the probability of you obtaining a device that a Dev feels passionate about, and puts time into developing.
Also, technology advances rapidly. A mod that changes your status bar can quickly be abandoned due to capability issues in the next android version.
Dev's dont recieve a lot of monetary gain, or proper thanks or appreciation for doing what they do. Android is a very complex machine. Multiple layers, multiple languages, and unique in that design. Very complex, with scripts that have calls for this, and calls for that, which has to be constructed correctly to pull from any section, under any circumstance.
New android releases have ability to duplicate and sometimes enhance, with the combination of a launcher, those features of a custom rom. Which causes less people to have reason to need or want a custom rom.
The cell phone companies would probably love to give customers the freedom of unlocking boot loaders and rooting phones with ease. Think about it. Samsung has a year warranty on cell phones.. you root and you have now voided that warranty. They no longer fix your device for free. Also, if they helped you easily achieve root on your device then they gave you, the customer, what you wanted, without risk of being responsible and in the same token, made you a happy customer. Its the carrier companies you should be angry with. They are the ones who puts money into Samsungs pockets. I mean have you ever purchased a device directly from Samsung? Or did you obtain it through a carrier company? Almost all individuals originally get cell phones from carrier companies. That being said - if verizon puts a clause into the contract that promises Samsung they will buy so many devices for so many years, only if they will increase security and difficulty of getting super user access, which will decrease the chances of a average customer removing that device from Verizons carrier lock. Samsung isnt going to decline a major carrier. Its not only verizon. Its most carriers. How do you think they profit from selling a 200$ phone for 20$?
Now heres the good things happening in the cell phone world..
Its now mandated that all US carriers provide free unlocking, from the network carrier lock, on all GSM devices sold after a certain date. Granted you meet all the stipulations they require. So now greater freedom of phones, or at least a law, made by the US government helping customers fight big companies. When we all know, its not too often that happens.
Anyone can root any device. As long as you know the languages android is designed in. Its all open sourced. You can compile and build an exact replica of your phone, except a few parts. The problem is in the difficulty of doing that. The complexity slows progression of released one click roots, or flashable roots.. those were programmed by people or teams who put in hard work to simplify the process to increase the chances of average people to successfully root.. those people are the Devs your talking about vanishing..
Another big thing ive heard about. The new android 8.0 Oreo has made the process of building custom roms, more simplified. Basically making the construction of one phone, be the same construction of multiple devices and variants, making roms free from being device specific. Increasing the probability of you owning a device with the same build as a Dev thats releasing a rom. Reversing what i said at the start of this reply. This would also cut down on the need to port, and decrease rom bugs like audio and wifi or volte. Thats what my understanding of it is. If im incorrect about this please someone explain it better, in lamans terms..
All in all, I agree with your statement that less and less rom development is happening. But, I feel like that is about to change directions. Not headed back to the way it was, but a new path.. and im ready for it..
And try apex launcher. Gives you ability to hide apps even in the free version unlike nova.. pretty sleek and fast.. alot of customization.. that along with a pie app,which gives you almost like a "apps edge" feel.. i also heard about a way to change your quick tiles in newer android versions.. the only thing about that is, im not sure if they were talking about just changing the main tiles at the top or changing them altogether.. i hope altogether.. i never use smart view, or power saver.. instead id like to have pandora, xda labs, etc
juzten said:
This is all opinion based. But reasonable opinions.
The Devs here at XDA arnt disappearing or doing any less developing for the majority. Instead the number of devices and different variants of those devices are growing so rapidly, that it lessens the probability of you obtaining a device that a Dev feels passionate about, and puts time into developing.
Also, technology advances rapidly. A mod that changes your status bar can quickly be abandoned due to capability issues in the next android version.
Dev's dont recieve a lot of monetary gain, or proper thanks or appreciation for doing what they do. Android is a very complex machine. Multiple layers, multiple languages, and unique in that design. Very complex, with scripts that have calls for this, and calls for that, which has to be constructed correctly to pull from any section, under any circumstance.
New android releases have ability to duplicate and sometimes enhance, with the combination of a launcher, those features of a custom rom. Which causes less people to have reason to need or want a custom rom.
The cell phone companies would probably love to give customers the freedom of unlocking boot loaders and rooting phones with ease. Think about it. Samsung has a year warranty on cell phones.. you root and you have now voided that warranty. They no longer fix your device for free. Also, if they helped you easily achieve root on your device then they gave you, the customer, what you wanted, without risk of being responsible and in the same token, made you a happy customer. Its the carrier companies you should be angry with. They are the ones who puts money into Samsungs pockets. I mean have you ever purchased a device directly from Samsung? Or did you obtain it through a carrier company? Almost all individuals originally get cell phones from carrier companies. That being said - if verizon puts a clause into the contract that promises Samsung they will buy so many devices for so many years, only if they will increase security and difficulty of getting super user access, which will decrease the chances of a average customer removing that device from Verizons carrier lock. Samsung isnt going to decline a major carrier. Its not only verizon. Its most carriers. How do you think they profit from selling a 200$ phone for 20$?
Now heres the good things happening in the cell phone world..
Its now mandated that all US carriers provide free unlocking, from the network carrier lock, on all GSM devices sold after a certain date. Granted you meet all the stipulations they require. So now greater freedom of phones, or at least a law, made by the US government helping customers fight big companies. When we all know, its not too often that happens.
Anyone can root any device. As long as you know the languages android is designed in. Its all open sourced. You can compile and build an exact replica of your phone, except a few parts. The problem is in the difficulty of doing that. The complexity slows progression of released one click roots, or flashable roots.. those were programmed by people or teams who put in hard work to simplify the process to increase the chances of average people to successfully root.. those people are the Devs your talking about vanishing..
Another big thing ive heard about. The new android 8.0 Oreo has made the process of building custom roms, more simplified. Basically making the construction of one phone, be the same construction of multiple devices and variants, making roms free from being device specific. Increasing the probability of you owning a device with the same build as a Dev thats releasing a rom. Reversing what i said at the start of this reply. This would also cut down on the need to port, and decrease rom bugs like audio and wifi or volte. Thats what my understanding of it is. If im incorrect about this please someone explain it better, in lamans terms..
All in all, I agree with your statement that less and less rom development is happening. But, I feel like that is about to change directions. Not headed back to the way it was, but a new path.. and im ready for it..
And try apex launcher. Gives you ability to hide apps even in the free version unlike nova.. pretty sleek and fast.. alot of customization.. that along with a pie app,which gives you almost like a "apps edge" feel.. i also heard about a way to change your quick tiles in newer android versions.. the only thing about that is, im not sure if they were talking about just changing the main tiles at the top or changing them altogether.. i hope altogether.. i never use smart view, or power saver.. instead id like to have pandora, xda labs, etc
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
In the netherland samsung is 2 year waranty even if you root it, i asked samsung care when i fixed the camera, tbh i like the 6x6 mod with settings, i agree nova sucks lately , but i use nova sinxe s3 time when archidroid putted it in the rom and i have pro of nova , well im also ready to see what oreo is like , tbh i like custom roms as i told even if im not making big use of it but i want to stay custom + root for certain apps, also i am gonna see what real chinese brands gonna do with their devices i dont want to waste 1300 euro on a iphone or note8, unlike 99% of idiotic people that only get a device to show off and only to whatsapp and snapchat , also what is the next thing iphones is gonna steal? Nokias charl zies camera? , and that for a lowlife chinese product while a real chinese android is 10x beter,
But realy i look for a divice with atleast
Led screen arround 5.5"+
Nice smooth rom
Not a pre but srereo buildin speakers for if i don't want to wear a headphone
A micro sd card reader
No big bars like a sony more like s8 or mii mix
Good headphone amp
I think that kind im looking for,
I have been a fan of installing custom ROMs, root and other mods to my phones since I first owned an Android phone, which was a Sony Xpera Z3 Compact.
Back then I didn't care so much about security, because I was thinking 'What, are they gonna steal my Instagram account?'. But as I grew older the situation got more complex and now I feel the need to feel secure while using a ROM, which is almost never these days. So here are my reasons:
- Custom ROM developers have the exact same device as we do, so if they wanted to exploit it, they would exploit the hell out of it and get their hands on everything we have. (Looking at you, MIUI port)
- Some ROMs come with SELinux disabled which is a problem in itself, I believe.
- Even apps like Magisk, although they're open source (well, most of them) who knows what they're doing in the background.
- It is fairly easy to install a keylogger built into a custom ROM, how do we know that we are already not compromised a few times?
Am I being paranoid here? Or does everyone just want to install their flashy mods and get on with it, like I used to back in the day?
I would love to hear all of your opinions on this!
interesting thoughts and it's always good to be a little concerned about security and privacy!
for custom roms i think in general they tend to be more secure than most stock roms. especially when they have OFFICIAL status - you often get faster updates or updates at all if you have an older device.
unlike big company's, the developer of these roms do it for fun and in general don't have economical interest. so why would they want to steal data/insert backdoors or whatever? thats something company's and governments are interested in...
what i see is that these devs usually check exactly what's happening inside a ROM and a more likely to remove/block suspicious apps or whatever.
also custom ROMs are always open source, aren't they? so everyone can check what's happening... same like Magisk and stuff. everyone's gonna see it if you are trying to steal people's data or something.
i personally trust ROMs based on Lineage OS more than any other stock ROM because they're developed by normal people and not by greedy company's...
although im using MIUI right now because its comfortable but i don't really trust them chinese stuff in terms of data security
merlin.berlin said:
also custom ROMs are always open source, aren't they? so everyone can check what's happening... same like Magisk and stuff. everyone's gonna see it if you are trying to steal people's data or something.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
First off, thanks for sharing your thought on this. Second, that's been a long time debate, whether open source software is really secure or not. Because although the source of the code is open for inspection, especially in small projects - like device specific projects, many of the security threats and bugs go unnoticed. Of course I trust Magisk, because it is open source AND many Android enthusiasts know about it to a level.
But when it comes to custom ROMs, if you actually check the forum, most of them aren't open source. Hell, we don't even know where they're coming from in some cases (MIUI, EvolutionX etc...). Well, I agree with the Official custom ROMs, because most of the time they're open sourced. But you need to be aware that especially the MIUI ports on this forum, are grabbed from Russian forums. So now (I'm not accusing anyone here), possibly the Russians (4pda), Chinese (Xiaomi) and feds (lol) can reach your data.
I share these concerns. I don't understand why xda doesn't have a policy of not allowing custom roms which don't display their origin/source. Miui mods, Gapps I never use. Bottom line is that with all data collection and spying going on through devices one can only protect her/himself based on personal knowledge and level of concern. And official vs. unofficial is a non issue.
Well, shortly - they aren't secure and you can trust them as much as you trust a person behind them, which you probably don't know well - means not much. And even if there is no bad will from trustworthy community member, you still have to trust that they weren't hacked and let's be honest - big companies are being hacked fairly regularly, let alone hobbyst xda developers. Considering the small user base of the roms, in 99% cases nobody would even realize any malicious stuff happening.
Definitely most stock roms are more secure than custom roms. BUT. Then comes privacy. On stock roms, google, and in most cases phone manufacturer harvest virtually all your data and everything you do, so the only plus here is that you may believe that it will never leak. For me it's not better at all.
At this moment probably the best you can get is a custom rom from trustworthy project with big userbase and many eyes watching - Official Lineage OS builds or one of the few serious privacy focused projects.
Hey,
as somebody who has published ROMs here I really wanted to share my thoughts on this.
First of all, you are right on having concerns about the security of custom ROMs.
There are essentially two types of security at stake here: One is the security of your device, if a third person gets physical control over it. Here, the case is quite clear: The moment you unlock the bootloader, an attacker with physical access to the device will be able to flash anything he wants and essentially circumvent any locking mechanism you have in place. Encryption would help, but implementing properly in a custom ROM and still keeping the functionalities users like about custom ROMs (e.g. easy switching between them, proper updates without the need for OTA) is quite difficult. In short, if you want to prevent anybody who might access your phone physically from gaining access to your data, keep stock ROM and boot loader locked.
The second type is data security and privacy, which was treated in OP. And OP was right, that there is a possibility of adding nearly anything to the code. I am speaking for myself right now, but I guarantee you, that I have never added anything to the ROM code (which for all AOSP ROMs needs to be public, any single line can be reviewed), device tree (public on github as well) or kernel (needs to be published as well). I know, it is my word to be taken here and there is nothing preventing e from lying (because I could add local changes to the code that are never made public). And there is a lot of faith involved, which is why I started building my own ROM. So if anybody feels uncomfortable with installing a ROM that potentially could contain malicious changes, it is better to stay on the stock ROM. On the other side though, the probability that devs like me, that do this essentially for fun and because they want more features and better experience than stock has to offer on their own phones, will invest the time to add a keylogger or other malware to than exploit maybe 10 or 12 people that will actually run the ROM, is quite low imho. Xiaomi, Huawei (or any other company) might be forced by some government to install backdoors or reveal userdata as well. It essentially boils down to trusting the open source community and a dev or trusting some corporation. I honestly do not have an easy answer to this and it probably differs for each person.
As why some ROMs (including my AOSiP 10) run with SELinux on permissive: SELinux enforcing is tricky. If the policy is written poorly, it will prevent your phone from booting or block essential features. And although I am quite android and linux savy and can write my own code, getting SELinux right is still a challenge. On Pie we had an experienced dev like Offain who essentially did it for most others as we used his trees, but for Ten we are still trying to get the devices working to their full extent on a never kernel version (4.9 instead of 3.18). SELinux has a lower priority for me, although I definitely want to make it enforcing as soon as possible.
The example of the kernel is a good point though why I think that custom ROMs can be more secure than stock if you are ready to trust the devs: Most of us use a newer, more up to date kernel than Xiaomi with upstreamed security patches, provide Android security patches earlier than Xiaomi and probably will continue to do so even when for Xiaomi the device will have reached EOL. At the moment, stock probably is the safest in terms of integrity, although it lacks features and is not quite up-to-date. But I have found on any device I owned, that keeping it somewhat up-to-date after official EOL through custom ROMs was a very important part of being able to use it longer than its intended life span.
Long story short: I guarantee you all that I am not interested in your private data and will not try to extort you or sell your credit card information or whatever... If there are bugs and vulnerabilities they are absolutely unintentional and I will try to fix them to my best knowledge if I am made aware of them. Anyway, please think critically and feel free to make the decision you feel best with.
opal06 said:
Hey,
as somebody who has published ROMs here I really wanted to share my thoughts on this.
First of all, you are right on having concerns about the security of custom ROMs.
There are essentially two types of security at stake here: One is the security of your device, if a third person gets physical control over it. Here, the case is quite clear: The moment you unlock the bootloader, an attacker with physical access to the device will be able to flash anything he wants and essentially circumvent any locking mechanism you have in place. Encryption would help, but implementing properly in a custom ROM and still keeping the functionalities users like about custom ROMs (e.g. easy switching between them, proper updates without the need for OTA) is quite difficult. In short, if you want to prevent anybody who might access your phone physically from gaining access to your data, keep stock ROM and boot loader locked.
The second type is data security and privacy, which was treated in OP. And OP was right, that there is a possibility of adding nearly anything to the code. I am speaking for myself right now, but I guarantee you, that I have never added anything to the ROM code (which for all AOSP ROMs needs to be public, any single line can be reviewed), device tree (public on github as well) or kernel (needs to be published as well). I know, it is my word to be taken here and there is nothing preventing e from lying (because I could add local changes to the code that are never made public). And there is a lot of faith involved, which is why I started building my own ROM. So if anybody feels uncomfortable with installing a ROM that potentially could contain malicious changes, it is better to stay on the stock ROM. On the other side though, the probability that devs like me, that do this essentially for fun and because they want more features and better experience than stock has to offer on their own phones, will invest the time to add a keylogger or other malware to than exploit maybe 10 or 12 people that will actually run the ROM, is quite low imho. Xiaomi, Huawei (or any other company) might be forced by some government to install backdoors or reveal userdata as well. It essentially boils down to trusting the open source community and a dev or trusting some corporation. I honestly do not have an easy answer to this and it probably differs for each person.
As why some ROMs (including my AOSiP 10) run with SELinux on permissive: SELinux enforcing is tricky. If the policy is written poorly, it will prevent your phone from booting or block essential features. And although I am quite android and linux savy and can write my own code, getting SELinux right is still a challenge. On Pie we had an experienced dev like Offain who essentially did it for most others as we used his trees, but for Ten we are still trying to get the devices working to their full extent on a never kernel version (4.9 instead of 3.18). SELinux has a lower priority for me, although I definitely want to make it enforcing as soon as possible.
The example of the kernel is a good point though why I think that custom ROMs can be more secure than stock if you are ready to trust the devs: Most of us use a newer, more up to date kernel than Xiaomi with upstreamed security patches, provide Android security patches earlier than Xiaomi and probably will continue to do so even when for Xiaomi the device will have reached EOL. At the moment, stock probably is the safest in terms of integrity, although it lacks features and is not quite up-to-date. But I have found on any device I owned, that keeping it somewhat up-to-date after official EOL through custom ROMs was a very important part of being able to use it longer than its intended life span.
Long story short: I guarantee you all that I am not interested in your private data and will not try to extort you or sell your credit card information or whatever... If there are bugs and vulnerabilities they are absolutely unintentional and I will try to fix them to my best knowledge if I am made aware of them. Anyway, please think critically and feel free to make the decision you feel best with.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
exactly, we don't need your data, just why we would want it. additionally, as you said, all is open sources so OP can check all. everything was written here, perfect answer
opal06's post is right on the money as explanation to what security can mean for rom/device. No need to be defensive though, trust in developers is the only thing that keeps the custom roms community going and I've been using them since Gingerbread.
On the other hand, I must say, custom roms that come pre-loaded with all bells and whistles from Google diminish the trust factor.
celrau said:
On the other hand, I must say, custom roms that come pre-loaded with all bells and whistles from Google diminish the trust factor.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
How come ? Could you explain that ?
marstonpear said:
How come ? Could you explain that ?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I guess what he means is that Google is notorious for grabbing any bit of data and having a custom ROM preloaded with Google stuff diminishes the need for installing it ib the first place, as it will have the same privacy concerns regarding Google as stock has. In general, Google's involvment into Android is a reason for concern to many, myself included. But there are very few ROMs that actually try to be privacy focused and get rid of Google entirely, although the situation can be improved by using MicroG services instead of GAPPS. They already work on many ROMs
opal06 said:
I guess what he means is that Google is notorious for grabbing any bit of data and having a custom ROM preloaded with Google stuff diminishes the need for installing it ib the first place, as it will have the same privacy concerns regarding Google as stock has. In general, Google's involvment into Android is a reason for concern to many, myself included. But there are very few ROMs that actually try to be privacy focused and get rid of Google entirely, although the situation can be improved by using MicroG services instead of GAPPS. They already work on many ROMs
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I was half way through typing pretty much the same thing when I noticed your post, that's exactly what I meant. One more thing, some people really need Gapps (i.e. for some banking apps) but they should install them themselves as opposed to providing custom roms with Gapps preinstalled.
Thank you guys for sharing your thoughts on this! I believe all we can do is trust our devs with our info and devices and as a paranoid user, I believe I won't be able to do that, so I'll stick to stock ROMs for our device. But I also believe this has been very helpful for other users who want to try custom ROMs and if they're not as paranoid as I am, they can safely use the open-sourced/official ROMs in the forum. Cheers.
marstonpear said:
Thank you guys for sharing your thoughts on this! I believe all we can do is trust our devs with our info and devices and as a paranoid user, I believe I won't be able to do that, so I'll stick to stock ROMs for our device. But I also believe this has been very helpful for other users who want to try custom ROMs and if they're not as paranoid as I am, they can safely use the open-sourced/official ROMs in the forum. Cheers.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I wouldn't call it being paranoid, I think it's very sane.
I agree and have similar view on that, but please ask yourself a question - how much you trust Xiaomi and their security measures? Because in terms of privacy it's obvious that nothing worse than Xiaomi plus Google can happen to you. If you're really what you call "paranoid" you should rather get a device with official Lineage OS support that you would download directly from their servers or systems mentioned here: https://www.privacytools.io/operating-systems/#mobile_os
Thread closed at OP request