Note: I had initially posted a version of this article on one of the Xiaomi sub-forums, but was told by some that since this is a general discussion, it would find wider readership if I post it here. So, I have edited and modified the original article for a more generalized approach, and posting it here. Hopefully, some sensible discussion will ensue.
****
If you are stuck with a phone for which the manufacturer has stopped releasing updates, or if you are bored with your current Android version and want to try something new, or if you want to be on the latest Android security patches, or if you want to make use of theming engines such as Substratum (which may not work with your phone's default OS), or if you are just a hobbyist looking for something fresh…custom android roms provide you with the perfect solution for your needs. Made by developers and enthusiasts, custom roms illustrate the power of diversity that can come from an open source ecosystem.
In theory, at least.
Below is my commentary on my trysts with custom roms over the last year and half.
Disclaimer: My experiences are based mostly on three phones - Moto G4, Redmi Note 3 (kenzo, not kate), and OnePlus 3. I have tried dozens of different ROMs in the process, with varying degrees of success and satisfaction.
The Trouble with custom Roms
1. Barriers to Entry
Before you can even venture into the world of installing and trying out new roms, you must ensure that your phone is, in fact, ready for it. This requires steps like getting the bootloader unlocked (can be tricky with phones like Xiaomi etc.), installing custom recovery, and then flashing roms, and then flashing GApps. For most users, this is much more hassle than they can be bothered with. There is a significantly steep learning curve for the layperson.
Thereafter, you must see which ROMs are available for your phone, which are still in active development, which have less bugs etc. This requires a lot of time going through the forums. Otherwise, you will waste more time flashing and then reflashing continuously.
Which brings us to the second point.
2. Official, Unofficial, MOD….Abandoned!
So, you found your way around XDA forums…good job! Now, you must start figuring out the differences between Official and Unofficial roms, and what that implies. The situation gets even more complex, because often we assume that Official tag would imply active development and bugfixes, and security updates, and the like. However, there are many "Official" roms that are dead, but "unofficial" roms that are alive, with more bugfixes, and a wider community.
One example is Citrus-CAF for Kenzo Official, which is dead…but Customized LOS build by Umang, which is unofficial, which is going well.
So after a while, the user realizes that whether there is an Official tag or Unofficial tag, really doesn't matter for all practical purposes, and is quite frankly just confusing. So why even bother with the tags? Official builds are equally likely to be abandoned by the developers without any prior notice, as are unofficial builds. Which takes us to the next issue.
3. Abandoned!
Remember, why you hopped on to the custom roms scene in the first place? That your manufacturer has abandoned your device and you wanted something new and more up to date? Well, guess what?! Custom rom developers abandon their roms all the time, without any warning whatsoever, and you are stuck waiting for the next build, which never comes.
This is hidden under the courteous pretenses of asinine etiquettes such as… "Don't ask for ETAs..the developers have a life you know, they are doing this for free, so just wait."
Here is my gripe with this all-pervasive norm. The developers knew they have a life, and yet decided to commit to a project, and attracted other people to their roms. And people put their trust in the developer (phones have all our data, so allowing a random person's code willingly on our phones is an act of utmost good faith), reported bugs, went through the trouble of the learning curve. Some even donated to the projects. If you start a pet project in your backyard, which no one else is affected by, then by all means go ahead and abandon it whenever you like. But when you are making OSes, then have some accountability. Especially the Official tag ones.
So many developers are just computer science students who have exams and what not, and so although the title of the ROM thread might claim weekly updates, they are gone for a month (Eg. Resurrection Remix for Redmi Note 3). This gives the whole rom an amateurish feel, and often a user might decide to stick with the OEM because of a lack of confidence in such roms.
And what is so wrong with asking for ETAs? It requires the developer to make a commitment which they may not be in a position to honor. That's the problem. Which leads me to the next point.
4. Communication
There are some developers who are really good at communication and keeping their user base updated on what's happening behind the scenes. However, this is still a rarity. I wish more developers did that. Some start new threads, promise you the best experience there ever was in the history of humanity, stay online for a month, and then vanish without a trace…(Eg. dotOS).
I wish there were more developers like xyyx, and Franco who communicate, even when they are not uploading builds. It instills confidence.
5. Accountability
I recently directed a friend of mine to go to one of the many rom threads available for his phone, the OnePlus 5. He spent one night browsing the forums, and decided he did not want to install anything. I asked why, and he said, "All this is fine, but I cannot get past, the initial disclaimer itself. When a manufacturer messes up an update and bricks your phone, they are held accountable. It is their legal responsibility. But here, every single rom starts with … you are on your own, if I release an update which breaks your phone, then too bad, go cry somewhere else. I cannot abide by that."
And this got me thinking…for those of us, who are not so tech savvy, custom roms are indeed a scary proposition. Can we do something about it, to ensure a little bit more accountability and quality checks for Official roms at least?
6. Userbase/ Community
While the general populace here at XDA is extremely helpful, I have found that this forum is divided into sub-communities of varying degrees of niceness. The stark difference can be found in the sub-communities of Oneplus 3 custom rom versus that of Redmi Note 3. While the former group seems more mature and accepting of mistakes newcomers might make, that of the latter, is less forgiving.
Please take a look at the below just some of the thousands of examples of such conversations live on the forums.
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Once you are done wondering about the relevance of an inquiry on your sexual orientation by a homophobic imbecile, on a custom rom forum, you find yourself guided by experts like this...
But the most common, useful advice of them all, repeated many times on custom rom forums is this....
Now I know the moderators clean the threads at regular intervals, but think from the perspective of that new user, a potential fellow enthusiast, who perhaps could have ventured into the custom rom scene and helped in various ways…think from that person's point of view….would they ever return to that rom? Every three pages of any rom, you will find such comments.
And this is a huge problem, I feel. Custom roms thrive on the community around them, much like Linux distributions. Developers and moderators must take more steps to ensure a more harmonious and cordial interaction on their forums.
Conclusion
Here are my takeaways from this journey so far
Installing custom roms is difficult, and a pain. With locked bootloaders, custom recoveries, Error 7, etc etc. There is very little a developer can do about this.
Currently, there seems to be no difference between Official and Unofficial roms from a user's perspective, so the tags are meaningless and confusing. That Official tag will start to mean something, only if there are more stringent conditions on quality, accountability, communication, and expectation of support and development. Otherwise, it is useless.
The community needs to be better moderated than it is, currently. Trolls are a fact of modern life, I know. But perhaps, we as a community can also moderate and shut down any such conversations, and help each other, better than we are doing.
Overall, I think, rather than depending solely on the developers and maintainers of a custom rom, I think it is upon us, the community, as a whole to make this ecosystem better for users and developers, enthusiasts and hobbyists, geeks and layperson, alike.
Some very valid points. But at the Accountability part, I think developers are justified for the disclaimer.
Sent from my HUAWEI BLN-L24 using XDA Labs
I get the feeling that you want the entire community to evolve and that is a very good thing. You have raised very important points, but here are their flaws, in your own order:
1) There's pretty much nothing that can be done about that. Anything aftermarket, whether it's software, hardware, automobile parts etc, require a fair deal of research on the end of the user. That said, things have become much easier now that what it was 4 years ago (from my experience), which is surprisingly good, but was never expected. Even if the entire process could theoretically made simpler, that would just bring a huge crowd of inexperienced users who have not done research into the userbase. These users will not be able to deal with the many annoyances that come with using custom firmware.
2) Official builds by reputed ROMs are usually never abandoned, because they are built on a server, on a regular basis. Even if the maintainer stops updating the device tree, the device can still get updates with ROM level changes. However, since there are an insane number of ROMs with different names, there are ones that have official builds manually built by a human, which results in infrequent builds. XDA *could* think of enforcing certain standards to get the OFFICIAL tag, like a minimum of monthly updates.
3/4/5) This is where I almost completely disagree with you. Let me start off by saying that I do agree with you on the fact that good communication is important, and that is something that most developers (including me) can improve on.
That said, here's the problem, and I can only speak for myself here. When you're using custom firmware, you gain something, and you lose something. The rise in number of ROMs and supported devices has made people compare custom ROMs to OEM releases. You pay the OEMs for not only your hardware, but also for the software. They have access to proprietary code that makes their jobs so much easier. Custom ROMs, especially bring ups from scratch, require a LOT of time and effort. For example, I have a relatively high powerful laptop (Alienware 15 with i7-6820HK and 16GB RAM) and it takes me ~6hrs to build an oreo based ROM from scratch. While there are developers with access to better servers and equipment, a majority do not. Considering this build time, imagine how much time and effort it takes to debug each small change. Changes in life are not usually predictable, and I may start a project with a particular timeline in mind, and something may come up that makes me unable to meet that. Developers are not trying to "attract users" with their ROMs. They are sharing their work, which they made in their free time and making them accountable is very unfair. What you can do is follow a thread, see the frequency of updates and decide whether you want to use it or not. Also, most ROM releases (not sure about poor communities like Xiaomi and stuff) are usable independently, even without updates.
Custom ROM flashing methods are much riskier and more complicated than an OEM's process. 99% of all ROM releases are tested by the developer and works on their end. Imagine making a non-paid developer responsible for something that's most probably a user error. Even with official builds, the process remains the same. So no, accountability will never be a thing. The point of the disclaimer to keep those in doubt (these are the same people who are likely to screw up) away.
You seem to forget this is a hobby.
Official just means it has passed the official teams guidelines. Made by a member of the team.
Unofficial means some random guy just used the source he found.
Rom devs tend to only develop for devices they own. Even xda frowns on building for a device you don't have.
Again this is a hobby. No commitment needed.
Let's not get into Franco. There is a reason he is in xda all the time. I'll leave it at that. Never heard of the other guy.
Yes there is a learning curve. Because bad things can happen.
Custom roms are not for those weak of heart or mind. So they are not for everyone, nor should everyone attempt it.
Most devs are not forgiving. As all the info is there. Nothing anyone asks is new. It's all been asked before and answered before. So when people mess up because they were lazy, most have no time or energy for it.
You have to remember that you came to a developers site. Not a social site, not a place to make friends. Developers tend to be anti social with no tolerance for stupidity. Mind you they have eased up over the years but it's still there.
It's all a matter of respect. Users don't respect the work devs do enough to put in the needed work to make things work. Then devs have zero time for them.
Also no most are not students. (maybe for those devices sue to their markets) most devs are family men and women. They only get a few hours a week sometime to work on your hobby. (all part of being an adult)
Related
First, let me say up front that I have the utmost respect for the developers in the Captivate forum. It's a handicapped device that has much more potential than I think we'll ever be able to tap, simply because there isn't much motivation for Samsung to fix its biggest issues. Let's face it: The things we like most about our favorite Android handsets are precisely the things that make them seem "too complex" to the non non-technical general public. I think that the Galaxy S line has been a huge dissapointment to enthusiasts, and a big "ooh, ahh" for the iPhone-types.
That being said, let me move on to my main gripe: Through my Droid Incredible, I fell in love with flashing ROMs. If it had a higher build number, I flashed it. And you know why? Because it was better a better build. Newer baseband versions fixed more problems than it caused. I could flash ROMs on a train versus needing to be at my desktop for an exhaustive multi-step shamble. And when ROMs were released from build to build, developers in general knew what to expect as far as results.
I simply can't say that that's true with the Captivate. I'm growing increasingly frustrated with this phone and it's idiocy. I hate having ROMs with "Beta 9.3.5" after their title. I hate that half of the releases are to take out some Samsung crap, replace it with some AOSP-like goodness, just to see what sticks.
Again, it's not a condemnation of the Devs. They have made this phone tolerable, which is no small task. I just think it's a sad state of affairs when an OS based on an open source foundation has been so brutally slapped together that it makes a phone with the looks and hardware specs of a Ferrari about as much fun to own and maintain as a Yugo.
Who's with me on this one?
EDIT:
I'm keeping my original post above, partly because there have been too many responses to make removing it reasonable, and partly because I'd like something to review the next time I decide to try and put my thoughts out there to the community.
I never imagined that I would draw so much criticism over this post. I honestly thought I did a pretty good job of making it apparent that I truly appreciate all of the developers' work. I'm a huge fan of the Android platform and of open source projects in general. Allow me to draw a poorly crafted and weak analogy, if I may:
I love my two-year old boy dearly. He's a fantastic kid and big bright spot in my life. He has asthma, and I really do hate providing his breathing treatments. It doesn't mean I'm not thankful for the technology that allows him to breathe, and I certainly wouldn't consider trading him in for a different model without such issues. I would, however, consider venting to other parents of an asthmatic child about how laborious the process of breathing treatments is, and how unfriendly it is towards children his age.
I'm not quite sure how I managed to come across as anti-open source, anti-developer, or at all unappreciative of our dedicated developers - but apparently that's exactly what I did, so for that I apologize. What is really awful is that with one well-intended post I feel that I have ostracized myself from a community that I thoroughly enjoy supporting.
So instead of being constructive... and building a ROM of your own or simply not using them, you're complaining? No one said you have to use them. No one said you have to update all the time.
Definitely not with you.
I think the fustration you're feeling is related to these only having being available to the masses for about 2 months. The modding community started with HTC phones, so they have the momentum. That being said the samsung community is making a lot of progress, and HTC/Samsung cross modding is in full swing. Be patient.
Sent from my SPH-D700 using XDA App
Thanks for your thoughts. I thought I had posted in "Captivate General", not "Captivate Troll." My mistake.
I have actually tried just about all the ROMs available. You may have noticed that I stated that this is not a Dev issue. I doubt many can do better than the talented developers we have here - I know I couldn't. Hell, even Samsung can't.
My point is that I think the Galaxy S line is a harbinger of things to come for Android. I hope I'm wrong, but as Android becomes increasingly mainstream, it also becomes increasingly less important to deliver function AND form.
The average consumer wants sexiness with phrases like "dual-core" listed in the specs, regardless of what the device can actually deliver.
Sent from my GT-I9000 using XDA App
crayak said:
I think the fustration you're feeling is related to these only having being available to the masses for about 2 months. The modding community started with HTC phones, so they have the momentum. That being said the samsung community is making a lot of progress, and HTC/Samsung cross modding is in full swing. Be patient.
Sent from my SPH-D700 using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You have a good point, and I have no problem waiting. I suppose I was just sharing my reflections.
Sent from my GT-I9000 using XDA App
I share you feelings somewhat. Thats why I picked a ROM (Cognition 2.1.6) and will stick with it until Froyo officially drops for the Captivate. I also hate having to restore a phone after a flash which is why I choose not to do it often.
vbhines said:
My point is that I think the Galaxy S line is a harbinger of things to come for Android. I hope I'm wrong, but as Android becomes increasingly mainstream, it also becomes increasingly less important to deliver function AND form.
The average consumer wants sexiness with phrases like "dual-core" listed in the specs, regardless of what the device can actually deliver.
Sent from my GT-I9000 using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I actually agree here. But this is sort of Google's thing in a lot of areas. Google Wave, Google Buzz etc. Google MASTERS searching. And everything else they throw stuff on a wall and some sticks and some don't. I worried about that with Android from the very beginning. They often times release half finished products and then allow the devs to finish (or not in some cases) the future of the product/service.
By going to 100 different carriers in 100 different iterations google may very well stop caring about the polished product and just allow the devs to do the rest.
When I had my HTC Hero I had a Flash addiction. Now I just have decided to stick with one build and update it when updates happen. There have been quite a few VERY recent improvements. SetIron's kernel is a fine example. Stuff is happening at a much faster pace than it was when I got my phone 2 months ago. There are twice as many ROMS if not more. Things are going blow wide open when Official Froyo and its source code drop. I think there was stagnent developing at first because we all knew Froyo was coming. If we're lucky Froyo and Gingerbread will share the same kernel so porting IT won't be a big deal either.
FWIW, The Captivate hasn't been out anywhere near as long as the Incredible. Give the Devs some time - it can only get better.
rfarrah said:
FWIW, The Captivate hasn't been out anywhere near as long as the Incredible. Give the Devs some time - it can only get better.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think his frustration is more that we have this incredible piece of hardware and the less than stellar job that Samsung has done to finish it off on the software side. If it wasn't for the devs/cookers I probably would have sold my Captivate by now, and I have only had it for 1 month, coming from a Milestone.
Samsung, hire some of these devs to fix your mess you call a kernel and os. Without the lagfixes from the devs this phone responds worse than my Milestone.
bradasmith said:
I think his frustration is more that we have this incredible piece of hardware and the less than stellar job that Samsung has done to finish it off on the software side. If it wasn't for the devs/cookers I probably would have sold my Captivate by now, and I have only had it for 1 month, coming from a Milestone.
Samsung, hire some of these devs to fix your mess you call a kernel and os. Without the lagfixes from the devs this phone responds worse than my Milestone.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
+1
Thank you for saying what I was trying to, but in far fewer words.
the galaxy s phones might be the last of the phones not locked by the manufacturer. and i like the samsung software package but dislike that it only works if x or y componant is still there. i dont get the appeal of aosp for an every day rom but i get that it is a transition for porting other things, once we know what we need to make the phone work with aosp we can make it work with anything. and i think that people arent giving samsung enough credit for support on the device. the stock rom was buggy and jf7 came out and made things better, now we are waiting on froyo and im sure it will be better yet, if the the leaked copies are an indication then froyo should be quite good.
i think the multi step proceedures is dev preferance for clearing data, there have been roms that you can flash over and keep everything. the other issue is lagfixes which aren't available(or needed) on other devices. the lagfix is part of those oh sh!t moments where you need odin, also having odin available is another avenue for the devs. if we could only flash from recovery you would see alot more cockwork flashable roms that are compatable with multiple lagfixes.
i messed with an evo and really got an apreciation for samsung, i felt the evo was of low build quality and that odin flashing a rooted rom is much more convenient than the rage against the cage meathod of adb pushing files and rooting and recovery flashing. rooting a galaxy s is rediculously easy, just an update.zip, or an one click app on the phone, or a one click app on a pc. or for froyo a 3click kernel flash in odin then an update.zip. or flashing a rooted rom with odin.
i have made many noob mistakes and taken risks and got it running every time. i dont know about the incredible but i think with some other devices i would have either bricked or pulled all my hair out fixing it.
i was in the airforce and one thing that people always said was that the two best bases are the one you last came from and the next one you are going to. people were always telling stories about "back in kirkland...." and "when i get to misawa..." but people were always complaining about there current base. i have a fealing that in year or two when we have new phones we will see many thing we hate about those as well. and if we had motorolas we'd hate those and if we had incredibles we see the galaxy s playing asphalt 5 from samsung apps and be like if only my phone could do 3d like that one.
I have one issue with my phone, the GPS. While I'm mad it doesn't really work it's something I NEVER use. Other than that I'm running the latest Cognition rom and couldn't be happier.
gunnyman said:
.....Things are going blow wide open when Official Froyo and its source code drop. I think there was stagnent developing at first because we all knew Froyo was coming.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think this is 100% the reason. I fully expect that there will be some amazing things done and some great roms released.
I don't know if it was mentioned or not already but the reason why there are so many beta versions of roms and why newer versions open up issues is for the same reason as above, no source code available. So be patient and I promise you'll be kicking yourself for making this thread.
I am not a programmer, just a user with some technical expertise, but I love these open source OS's. I jumped on Linux as soon as MS Vista came out and the improvements and leaps forward by that community on the desktops has been amazing. When I opened a Win7 PC for the first time, I realized Microsoft is now copying Linux, not the other way around. Just last week I looked at the new MAC OS and I wanted to scream that they were ripping off the XFCE GUI in Linux. Linux is leading the way in Netbooks now and embedded devices are now a focus. If you have ever flashed a router with Tomato, or one of the other Linux router OS's, you know what amazing things routers are now capable of. And then we have smart phones and make no mistake, Android is just Linux in a smart phone. We don't have to deal with a proprietary systems from MS or Apple, where you only get what they hand out to you. This is Burger King baby, you get it your way. Google may be the name on this open source OS, but it belongs to us all. Google can not take this OS proprietary. Yet any time we, the people, wish we can spin off another branch of development with those things we want. OS's like Meego (and I'm sure there will be others) should be able to be ported over, if we wish, in the near future. We may be looking at an era where we can truly buy the smart phone of our choice, install our OS of choice and choose our carrier of choice with ease.
Bottomline here is you can help. If you are not a dev, or a programmer, you can still contribute to this by continuing to use these builds, and report bugs, and you can contribute money to any of the open source efforts, particularly in areas where you want to see more effort. You don't have to sit on the side lines anymore and just whine about how you are getting the short end of the stick by the big corporations. Open Source belongs to us all, take ownership.
i dont think apple is really copying xfce. ..macosx versions are terminal based and therefor unix like and very similar to linux. x11 window environments have been around for many year. xfce doesn't offer that much that i know of that isn't in others window managers. it is possible that the developers on all sides are taking ideas from each other, but i think since power user often have a lot of shortcuts setup to get through common tasks faster that they are implementing some of these things as presets. similarities can just as easily similar minds overcoming very common problems. granted many developers may be running alternate os's and may be inspired by the other. not that i dont believe in corperate espionage i certainly do but i think a lot of things are just obvious solutions.
the problem with phones is that the manufacturers can lock us out and the locks can be difficult to break. you are right that google doesnt own the os but the manufacturers have proprietary source along side the source that they must release because it was taken from google. at some point it makes development dificult. i think we need an emphasis on aosp to build roms from. not because i like the google software, i find it plain and ugly, but because once aosp is figured out there is more understanding of how it all fits together and ports become easier.
i just cant wait to see the day when we can custom order aosp compatible hardware and build phones based on what our priorities are and what we can afford. i know we cant actually solder the boards our selves with surface mount but it could be done on an assembly line with robots if a manufacturer decided to use them to there full potential.
vbhines said:
Thanks for your thoughts. I thought I had posted in "Captivate General", not "Captivate Troll." My mistake.
I have actually tried just about all the ROMs available. You may have noticed that I stated that this is not a Dev issue. I doubt many can do better than the talented developers we have here - I know I couldn't. Hell, even Samsung can't.
My point is that I think the Galaxy S line is a harbinger of things to come for Android. I hope I'm wrong, but as Android becomes increasingly mainstream, it also becomes increasingly less important to deliver function AND form.
The average consumer wants sexiness with phrases like "dual-core" listed in the specs, regardless of what the device can actually deliver.
Sent from my GT-I9000 using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I couldn't agree with your more about your criticism about Samsung - but I'm not sure how this applies for Android as a whole. The closest thing you can say is Android fails to exclude poorly performing companies - but that's not much of a statement, is it?
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using XDA App
GreenWolf70 said:
I am not a programmer, just a user with some technical expertise, but I love these open source OS's. I jumped on Linux as soon as MS Vista came out and the improvements and leaps forward by that community on the desktops has been amazing. When I opened a Win7 PC for the first time, I realized Microsoft is now copying Linux, not the other way around. Just last week I looked at the new MAC OS and I wanted to scream that they were ripping off the XFCE GUI in Linux. Linux is leading the way in Netbooks now and embedded devices are now a focus. If you have ever flashed a router with Tomato, or one of the other Linux router OS's, you know what amazing things routers are now capable of. And then we have smart phones and make no mistake, Android is just Linux in a smart phone. We don't have to deal with a proprietary systems from MS or Apple, where you only get what they hand out to you. This is Burger King baby, you get it your way. Google may be the name on this open source OS, but it belongs to us all. Google can not take this OS proprietary. Yet any time we, the people, wish we can spin off another branch of development with those things we want. OS's like Meego (and I'm sure there will be others) should be able to be ported over, if we wish, in the near future. We may be looking at an era where we can truly buy the smart phone of our choice, install our OS of choice and choose our carrier of choice with ease.
Bottomline here is you can help. If you are not a dev, or a programmer, you can still contribute to this by continuing to use these builds, and report bugs, and you can contribute money to any of the open source efforts, particularly in areas where you want to see more effort. You don't have to sit on the side lines anymore and just whine about how you are getting the short end of the stick by the big corporations. Open Source belongs to us all, take ownership.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is one of the best posts I have read on this forum. What a great insight into the evolution of the smartphone, it damn near brought a tear to my eye and sure as hell made me proud to be an owner and defender of the ideal of Open Source. Sure, my Captivate isn't perfect, but I continue to try new ROM's and use my technical proficiency to try and reason out any bugs so as to provide useful feedback. In turn, these ROM's continue to get better and everyone profits.
I love you guys... *group hug*
Dani897 said:
the galaxy s phones might be the last of the phones not locked by the manufacturer. and i like the samsung software package but dislike that it only works if x or y componant is still there. i dont get the appeal of aosp for an every day rom but i get that it is a transition for porting other things, once we know what we need to make the phone work with aosp we can make it work with anything. and i think that people arent giving samsung enough credit for support on the device. the stock rom was buggy and jf7 came out and made things better, now we are waiting on froyo and im sure it will be better yet, if the the leaked copies are an indication then froyo should be quite good.
i think the multi step proceedures is dev preferance for clearing data, there have been roms that you can flash over and keep everything. the other issue is lagfixes which aren't available(or needed) on other devices. the lagfix is part of those oh sh!t moments where you need odin, also having odin available is another avenue for the devs. if we could only flash from recovery you would see alot more cockwork flashable roms that are compatable with multiple lagfixes.
i messed with an evo and really got an apreciation for samsung, i felt the evo was of low build quality and that odin flashing a rooted rom is much more convenient than the rage against the cage meathod of adb pushing files and rooting and recovery flashing. rooting a galaxy s is rediculously easy, just an update.zip, or an one click app on the phone, or a one click app on a pc. or for froyo a 3click kernel flash in odin then an update.zip. or flashing a rooted rom with odin.
i have made many noob mistakes and taken risks and got it running every time. i dont know about the incredible but i think with some other devices i would have either bricked or pulled all my hair out fixing it.
i was in the airforce and one thing that people always said was that the two best bases are the one you last came from and the next one you are going to. people were always telling stories about "back in kirkland...." and "when i get to misawa..." but people were always complaining about there current base. i have a fealing that in year or two when we have new phones we will see many thing we hate about those as well. and if we had motorolas we'd hate those and if we had incredibles we see the galaxy s playing asphalt 5 from samsung apps and be like if only my phone could do 3d like that one.
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GreenWolf70 said:
I am not a programmer, just a user with some technical expertise, but I love these open source OS's. I jumped on Linux as soon as MS Vista came out and the improvements and leaps forward by that community on the desktops has been amazing. When I opened a Win7 PC for the first time, I realized Microsoft is now copying Linux, not the other way around. Just last week I looked at the new MAC OS and I wanted to scream that they were ripping off the XFCE GUI in Linux. Linux is leading the way in Netbooks now and embedded devices are now a focus. If you have ever flashed a router with Tomato, or one of the other Linux router OS's, you know what amazing things routers are now capable of. And then we have smart phones and make no mistake, Android is just Linux in a smart phone. We don't have to deal with a proprietary systems from MS or Apple, where you only get what they hand out to you. This is Burger King baby, you get it your way. Google may be the name on this open source OS, but it belongs to us all. Google can not take this OS proprietary. Yet any time we, the people, wish we can spin off another branch of development with those things we want. OS's like Meego (and I'm sure there will be others) should be able to be ported over, if we wish, in the near future. We may be looking at an era where we can truly buy the smart phone of our choice, install our OS of choice and choose our carrier of choice with ease.
Bottomline here is you can help. If you are not a dev, or a programmer, you can still contribute to this by continuing to use these builds, and report bugs, and you can contribute money to any of the open source efforts, particularly in areas where you want to see more effort. You don't have to sit on the side lines anymore and just whine about how you are getting the short end of the stick by the big corporations. Open Source belongs to us all, take ownership.
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EsotericPunk said:
This is one of the best posts I have read on this forum. What a great insight into the evolution of the smartphone, it damn near brought a tear to my eye and sure as hell made me proud to be an owner and defender of the ideal of Open Source. Sure, my Captivate isn't perfect, but I continue to try new ROM's and use my technical proficiency to try and reason out any bugs so as to provide useful feedback. In turn, these ROM's continue to get better and everyone profits.
I love you guys... *group hug*
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Well said Androiders!
+10
Then go wait on the sidelines for a cyanogen port. We, galaxy s phone owners. Don't and won't need huge steps beyond what we have. Your expectations are limited to what your old phone needed to perform.
You are right its silly. And unnecessary. Find a new hobby if porting roms isn't doing it for you.
vbhines said:
First, let me say up front that I have the utmost respect for the developers in the Captivate forum. It's a handicapped device that has much more potential than I think we'll ever be able to tap, simply because there isn't much motivation for Samsung to fix its biggest issues. Let's face it: The things we like most about our favorite Android handsets are precisely the things that make them seem "too complex" to the non non-technical general public. I think that the Galaxy S line has been a huge dissapointment to enthusiasts, and a big "ooh, ahh" for the iPhone-types.
That being said, let me move on to my main gripe: Through my Droid Incredible, I fell in love with flashing ROMs. If it had a higher build number, I flashed it. And you know why? Because it was better a better build. Newer baseband versions fixed more problems than it caused. I could flash ROMs on a train versus needing to be at my desktop for an exhaustive multi-step shamble. And when ROMs were released from build to build, developers in general knew what to expect as far as results.
I simply can't say that that's true with the Captivate. I'm growing increasingly frustrated with this phone and it's idiocy. I hate having ROMs with "Beta 9.3.5" after their title. I hate that half of the releases are to take out some Samsung crap, replace it with some AOSP-like goodness, just to see what sticks.
Again, it's not a condemnation of the Devs. They have made this phone tolerable, which is no small task. I just think it's a sad state of affairs when an OS based on an open source foundation has been so brutally slapped together that it makes a phone with the looks and hardware specs of a Ferrari about as much fun to own and maintain as a Yugo.
Who's with me on this one?
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Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using XDA App
Alright - there's been some concern about me link baiting for traffic to my blog. I don't really care much about traffic to my blog whatsoever (no, I don't get any ad revenue), so I'm reposting the entire post, in its entirety, without any links back to my blog.
It's inflammatory, but I think there's suggestions that should be considered. I'll post some of the suggestions in here on the XDA suggestions thread, too.
TL;DR: Cowboys suck (even if they contribute tons of code upstream, witholding source code "until it's ready" for an OSS project is disingenuous at best), the XDA forums are *okay*, but the flat comment format that most, if not all forum software impose is completely outdated (look at Reddit and mailing lists for inspiration), and other OSS communities have largely figured out how to separate user/developer communication lines without hiding anything from anyone.
Without further ado...
---
I've been a member of the XDA Developers Forums for a few months, and after following development forums for various phones (mostly the Nexus S and the HTC Thunderbolt forums), I've concluded that the XDA Developers forums suck. Perhaps an even stronger claim is that the Android developer community sucks, but I won't be defending that claim in this post.
So, why do the XDA Developers forums suck?
For one, the purpose of the forums is to centralize discussion and cooperation of development projects for Android. Based on what I've seen so far on the Nexus S and Thunderbolt forums, I believe that the forums have largely failed at this task. ROM's are largely developed independently with about over half of the ROMs maybe sharing source code to the community, with the biggest offender being CM7 for Thunderbolt (the source code for most of the OS is shared to the public, but the most important part that adds support for the Thunderbolt's radio will not be open sourced "until it's done.") Worse, there's a lot of prima donnas in the community - in most other dev communities, most of the work is done in teams, though there may be benevolent dictators or celebrities (but almost none of the things that are present in the XDA community - witholding of source code and "heroism.") As much as slayher has contributed to the community, it's telling when you see CM7 on Thunderbolt completely contingent on him finishing his radio interface layer code, and having to go to a channel called #slayher for CM7 Thunderbolt support. Who the **** creates a channel based on their handle for a software project?
Not only that, but the discussion that does take place on the forums around development is almost always centered on end user support. Many other communities solve this with mailing lists in order to help focus branching topics in a thread (most forums are notoriously bad at this, given that the default view in most forums and the way that a forum focuses your conversation often defaults to a flat hierarchy of posts.) Any relevant developer discussion is drowned in a sea of user support questions, and I would not blame anyone who wishes to take their conversation elsewhere.
What I propose as an alternative is the following:
* A site that is an aggregate of mailing lists for various phones, software projects associated with each phone, etc.
* User support may be provided on this same site on forums, like how XDA is setup right now. The only difference is that dev discussion is separated into mailing lists (and make it crystal clear that any developer related discussion should be posted on the mailing lists.)
* This site should not post anything that doesn't have any source code freely available under the GPL/BSD/Apache/etc. licenses.
EDIT: There's a couple of things I want to address:
"Why are you complaining? The developers put a lot of time into making these ROM's!"
I'm not complaining about the devs creating software - in fact, I recognize that they've put a lot of hard work in writing these ROM's. However, there's a problem with how development is done: there's a lot of cowboys in the community who bring out the "I have a family" card when they don't try to avail themselves of responsibility by releasing their code and letting others contribute in a meaningful way. In a lot of other OSS projects, there's not a lot of that going on - people contribute, things are documented, and there's a process to merge changes in.
I want to contribute to the CM7 Thunderbolt project, but the outstanding issues largely have to do with the RIL code, which is not even available!
"Why don't you develop your own ROM?"
Because my expertise isn't squarely in Android development. I'd rather contribute fixes to a project in order to get myself acquainted, then maybe I can think about developing my own ROM.
Linus' Law: "given enough eyeballs, all bugs are shallow."
im sure people have reasons for what they do. prepare to be flamed.
Sent from my ADR6400L using XDA Premium App
If you think CM is doing is wrong then hold Google to the same standard. They release their code when they think it's ready. This also applies to Linux, and Mozilla. Get off your high horse. It's impatient people like you that makes the community the way it is.
Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk
Patience is a virtue guess that's something you never heard in your life. But yeah cool story bro...
I'm not saying I agree with Google's model, either. In fact, I think Google's sense of "open" kind of sucks, from the POV of someone who contributes to a lot of OSS projects (not large contributions mind you, but contributions nonetheless.) I patch things, they get merged into trunk, and the group agrees to cut a release once it's ready. This is different from waiting on one guy to release code "when it's ready" so people can contribute - it's frustrating, because everyone knows how busy he is (and, understandably, people want to help out to get things done faster *and* not have him be the sole person to go to), yet he keeps his cards close to his chest at all times for an OSS project.
Only the kernel is FOSS (GPL), and you have a legitimate complaint there. The Android community does a very poor job of making modified source available.
OTOH, the rest is (mostly) Apache license, so there's no requirement for releasing modified source. It's against the general spirit of things, but legitimate.
There are also a lot of prima donnas around. The ability to modify some header files and compile a kernel, or to do a cosmetic re-skin doesn't make one a "developer." The changes made simply don't rise to that level.
You've had some extremely productive posts, all 11 of them are filled with wonderful contributions...thank you!
There's more than just him working on it. He may be the lead, but he isn't the only one working. If you don't like it that way you can easily get the AOSP and do it your way. There is no one stopping you. If your way is truly better you should be able to go ahead of the pace CM is doing.
Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk
So because your experience with the Thunderbolt and Nexus S forums has sucked, you think you can group all of XDA together? And anyone is welcome to help Slayher if they want or can, I'm sure if you just ask he'd be more than happy to have some help.
And unless you are going to go help him with this,no one cares what you think.
hey dude. your a noob.
STFU until you know what your talking about.
Nuff said.
mike.s said:
Only the kernel is FOSS (GPL), and you have a legitimate complaint there. The Android community does a very poor job of making modified source available.
OTOH, the rest is (mostly) Apache license, so there's no requirement for releasing modified source. It's against the general spirit of things, but legitimate.
There are also a lot of prima donnas around. The ability to modify some header files and compile a kernel, or to do a cosmetic re-skin doesn't make one a "developer." The changes made simply don't rise to that level.
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Thanks - this is the first reasonable post so far.
The spirit is what I'm mostly arguing for - I want to see an open development spirit that's adopted by most GPL projects, whether or not it's an Apache/BSD/GPL/etc. open source license.
I know, you're not legally bound to share your code, but for the sake of the overall community, it'd benefit *everyone*, including other ROM authors, to open code, even if it's not done. Why? So others can help your project out, and so you don't have to stress out all of the time on a free project.
merc248 said:
but the most important part that adds support for the Thunderbolt's radio will not be open sourced "until it's done.")
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If you have really done OSS development in the past, then you should know what some parts of code are held back until they're done. It keeps people from unnecessarily forking a project and watering it down or doing more harm than good (people complaining something doesn't work [because they will as they do]). Slayher doesnt do all the work. Again, if you follow the OSS community, CM has a similar relationship as the Linux Kernel itself does. One guy is the top figurehead of the project (Slayher for CM and Linus for Linux). However, each has many other people that contribute and add to the development (just go look at the code repository for CM and see who's committing, it's not just Slayher). Basically it just comes down to Slayer has final say on things, just as Linus does for Linux.
merc248 said:
A site that is an aggregate of mailing lists for various phones, software projects associated with each phone, etc.
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Mailing lists? What are we in, the 1990s? I suppose we should open up a usenet group while we are at it. That's not a step forward, that's a step backwards. I agree that forums aren't really made for bringing together discussion and development, but a mailing list is way worse. Perhaps the biggest contributer to the forums being as they are is the forum software, vbulletin. It's not exactly the easiest thing in the world to mod and extend, just from my own experience of using it. For example, the presentation layer of it and css files are all stored within the database with no easy way to access besides some horrible gui that no developer would really want to use. You can force it to dump out the css and use the files for modification, but to modify the other parts of the presentation (xhtml, xml, etc), you have a much harder time doing.
merc248 said:
This site should not post anything that doesn't have any source code freely available under the GPL/BSD/Apache/etc. licenses.
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So I guess we should throw out the forums discussing the iphone, windows phone and such, since those devices use things not under open source licenses. Even android kernel is not totally open source (the drivers have some binary blobs). The first phone with a totally open source kernel just came out (samsung galaxy s2).
I am by no means an android guru (and I make mistakes) and I am learning everyday, but I can say that you don't have all the answers and the ones you have, don't really seem to solve much.
yareally said:
If you have really done OSS development in the past, then you should know what some parts of code are held back until they're done. It keeps people from unnecessarily forking a project and watering it down or doing more harm than good (people complaining something doesn't work [because they will as they do]).
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You know what I say in that case? **** the complainers. Open the code and accept patches from anyone who has not only followed the guidelines that you've set for your project, but also actually fix whatever bug (for the very tiny amount of OSS code I've written from scratch, I usually accept any reasonable pull requests - a lot of larger projects I've seen usually require a ticket in JIRA or Redmine.)
Slayher doesnt do all the work. Again, if you follow the OSS community, CM has a similar relationship as the Linux Kernel itself does. One guy is the top figurehead of the project (Slayher for CM and Linus for Linux). However, each has many other people that contribute and add to the development (just go look at the code repository for CM and see who's committing, it's not just Slayher). Basically it just comes down to Slayer has final say on things, just as Linus does for Linux.
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That, I didn't know. The way it's presented, it sounds like slayher and very few other people are usually the ones credited with all of the work, but to be honest, it sounds like slayher is doing all of the work (and given that the RIL code is not even open sourced yet, I'm not convinced that anyone else is really working on *that*.) In that case, how would I figure out what outstanding bugs are in the CM7 build? Any small bugs that a junior dev would be able to tackle?
Mailing lists? What are we in, the 1990s? I suppose we should open up a usenet group while we are at it. That's not a step forward, that's a step backwards. I agree that forums aren't really made for bringing together discussion and development, but a mailing list is way worse. Perhaps the biggest contributer to the forums being as they are is the forum software, vbulletin. It's not exactly the easiest thing in the world to mod and extend, just from my own experience of using it. For example, the presentation layer of it and css files are all stored within the database with no easy way to access besides some horrible gui that no developer would really want to use. You can force it to dump out the css and use the files for modification, but to modify the other parts of the presentation (xhtml, xml, etc), you have a much harder time doing.
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I only bring up mailing lists because they do one thing really really well: threading. Google Groups is a nice middle ground, since it provides an email interface, plus you can search for stuff pretty easily on a web frontend.
The other site I've seen that does comment threads really well is Reddit - I don't think it's feasible, however, for software development teams to use Reddit as a means of communication.
So I guess we should throw out the forums discussing the iphone, windows phone and such, since those devices use things not under open source licenses. Even android kernel is not totally open source (the drivers have some binary blobs). The first phone with a totally open source kernel just came out (samsung galaxy s2).
I am by no means an android guru (and I make mistakes) and I am learning everyday, but I can say that you don't have all the answers and the ones you have, don't really seem to solve much.
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No, absolutely not! In fact, the forums should stay - I'm saying that to coordinate actual development work, mailing lists/Google Groups/whatever should be used instead, paired with something like Github or whatever. For example, it's confusing as hell to go through the single CM7 thread to find any relevant information concerning actual development - there's sometimes disperate threads here and there about workarounds that people have found, but it's incredibly confusing to follow sometimes.
merc248 said:
That, I didn't know. The way it's presented, it sounds like slayher and very few other people are usually the ones credited with all of the work, but to be honest, it sounds like slayher is doing all of the work (and given that the RIL code is not even open sourced yet, I'm not convinced that anyone else is really working on *that*.) In that case, how would I figure out what outstanding bugs are in the CM7 build? Any small bugs that a junior dev would be able to tackle?
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I'm sure they would be glad to accept and review any patches contributed. Anyone can submit code, but it has to be reviewed and approved.
http://wiki.cyanogenmod.com/index.php?title=Howto:_Use_the_Issue_Tracker
http://code.google.com/p/cyanogenmod/issues/list (issue tracker)
http://review.cyanogenmod.com/#q,status:open,n,z (code review)
http://wiki.cyanogenmod.com/index.php?title=Howto:_Gerrit (how to post patches for review)
Cyanogen also has forums btw, not just a channel for help and support:
http://forum.cyanogenmod.com/
I really think you should review the CM community a bit closer. It seems like you didn't really examine it overly deep (I found all the links except the code review/forum with a 5 minute google search; the code review link I was aware of before just from my own browsing).
Also, if you really want to blame someone for the RIL issues, blame HTC, since they didnt give the source to the RIL on the phone (nor do they give the source to any of the changes they make to the android framework and htc sense).
Just random info on how the RIL is implimented on android. Android source comes with a generic one for GSM (3g and before) and then vendors just extend it for their own needs.
http://www.kandroid.org/online-pdk/guide/telephony.html
tl;dr
cool story bro...
Thanks for the links - I do know that CM has a set of forums, but didn't know they had an issue tracker and a code review site.
However, a search on the issue tracker turned up one result for Thunderbolt:
http://code.google.com/p/cyanogenmo...on Model Network Owner Summary Stars Priority
... with a comment on the bottom offering no support for the TBolt until it's actually merged in CM7.
Argh. :\
g00s3y said:
tl;dr
cool story bro...
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+1 for mailing lists suck. I chuckled at the "why not just start up a usenet group" joke/comment.
Seems like there are a lot of other Android forums a guy could visit, if he doesn't like this one.
In all honesty (and potential ignorance), I'm floored by the difference in commonly accepted time frames for testing desktop tweaks vs. mobile tweaks ("tweaks" used in the most general sense) and the influencing factors. Installing a new kernel on my Fassy feels like installing a new CPU in my desktop in terms of potential changes (good or bad) in stability, features, general performance, and tweaking potential, minus the thermal grease under my nails. In my PC OCing days though, people would commonly balk at anyone claiming a stable config without the 24h Prime95 runs, repeated SuperPi results, etc. as evidence; I really haven't seen anything like that in my limited smartphone experience, but I understand some of the reasons why, aside from being impractical for most users.
I find it easier to get spoiled on the mobile platform. It seems the majority of users (myself included) are less inclined to put a new kernel through its paces for more than a day or two before reaching a conclusion. With kernel and rom releases being far more frequent and accessible than, say, expensive user-upgradeable hardware, it makes perfect sense. Still, I often wonder if a given kernel or rom release has been deeply and broadly tested enough to truly provide the developers with reliable feedback. Dedicated beta testers are a godsend, but I'd venture a guess that such groups are frequently unavoidably too small to serve as a truly representative sample set. I'd be an idiot to overlook all of the amazing development progress many of us have grown used to (hence, "spoiled"), but I feel it would be shortsighted to assume that only a rare few serious devs out there have given up their free time on red herrings.
At last, there is an actual question here. I don't expect a concrete or "right" answer, though. To anyone reading, I ask: do you feel that developers and their projects (and thus the rest of us) would see any appreciable benefit from the widespread adoption of longer testing times? Obviously you don't need a week to figure out you're in a boot loop, but I feel like a lot of cumulative minor errors end up rearing their ugly heads despite a user thinking their configuration is "stable" after only a day or two.
NOTE: Despite the presence of a question, the overall intent of the post didn't seem to fit the Q&A section. I apologize if this was an incorrect assumption.
No. When something is released on xda it is immediately in "testing". For a developer to have user feedback, logs, and the discovery of potential app conflicts is what xda is all about. And you can see that type of "growth of an app" happen in android apps section. Many apps there started as v.01 alphas and are now full releases on the market (thanks to testings from courageous xda addicts). But for the non commercial side of things roms/kernels/themes. Being on the cutting edge comes with risks or if you're not sure of something, resist the urge and monitor the thread for a week or two and see if the modification suits your needs.
good day.
Chopper, I agree in principle but not completely in practice (though you have a lot more experience to speak from). As far as the "in testing" nature of projects posted here, I suppose my uncertainty goes back to the question of the quality and consistency of said testing. The kernel.org fiasco comes to my mind as a potentially interesting case study if significant time and resources could feasibly be allocated. I was intrigued to see a situation where such a large and varied (device-wise) group of users had to "settle" with the existing builds for so long. This allowed more time than usual for users to test and agree on the stability of a given build. Whether that was truly widespread or meaningful, I cannot say. To your closing point though, I was happy I decided to stick with 35 for a few days once the nightlies resumed.
Sent from my SCH-I500 using xda premium
Many of you are going to know all this, and many know far better than I. Please, those that do, please step in and correct my information if I make any mistakes.
I see the word stable thrown around a lot - "Is this ROM stable", "stable release", etc.
I want to attempt to pin down a definition when in use for regular conversation, and I also want to address that there is one use of the word that is clearly defined and cannot be used lightly.
First, in the development/open source world, the vast majority of projects you will see are in beta or sometimes even alpha. This means that it's still in some sort of testing phase, and there are usually some bugs that need to be ironed out before it's termed a "finished product". By the very nature of software and developers' desire to be honest, it's quite common that there are some pieces of software that will never leave beta(and some even used in a corporate production environment. "beta" is not a death sentence and doesn't mean there's something fatally flawed). There is always more work to be done, a bug here, something to smooth out there, something that needs to be optimized, etc. A developer can not be satisfied to release a final version. That being said, it does happen. Once it reaches past beta, it often gets promoted to a "release candidate".
A release candidate, or RC, means that they are fairly satisfied that bugs are taken care of, and that they are PRETTY sure there's no major flaw lurking in the depths waiting for the perfect moment to rise and bring down death and destruction upon any innocent fool who crosses its path. This is the final step leading up to that coveted and rare specimen - the :victory:Stable Release.:victory:
Once the release candidate has gone through rigorous testing by developers, users, testers, etc, it can finally become a stable release. It's a big risk to label something as a stable release. This is the developer giving you their word and staking their reputation to say "there are no bugs in this piece of software. It is being released as a final version and will not cause you any trouble".
I beg you to correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe there are stable releases for any any ROM for the MT4GS. Once again, this is very common in the development world, and not just for phones. Just take a look at the number of projects on slashdot that are widely used by thousands of people with no trouble - much of them sitting in beta or even alpha.
Now is where we run into some ambiguity using the term. At a passing glance, and certainly to the uninformed, seeing that software isn't "stable" will naturally and intuitively lead one to believe it must be somehow unstable. Given the nature of open source and development, we know that this isn't necessarily the case. There may be something very minor that only comes up in certain situations, the developer may still feel that there hasn't been enough testing to rule out any bugs, or there may be no bugs at all but the developer is not yet satisfied with the completeness, speed, or number of features.
Now, I would like to address how the word is used in conversation or when asking questions about a ROM. Stability itself, is absolutely very important, with good reason, to a vast majority of people who own a mobile phone. This is often their only source of communication and is required for work, for emergencies, and for generally keeping in contact. If the phone fails to function in a manner that keeps the user reliably connected to their web resources as well as phone, email and messaging communication, there could very well be disastrous results. Therefore, asking if the rom is stable is very valid and relevant, but due to the fact that the word stable can have such an ambiguous definition, and is also a term for a particular stage in development, communication can break down pretty quickly between parties when the term starts getting tossed around.
The device I had previously was a Motorola Droid 1(OG Droid, Sholes, etc.). This phone had a huge and extremely active development community on many different websites. Many devs still hold the moto droid in a special place in their hearts for how hackable it was, the power it had for a device at the time of its release, and the massive userbase ranging from those with no technical ability at all to some of the best hackers ever to work on Android. This device truly represented the renaissance, if not the birth, of custom development for android devices.One thing that was extremely common across almost any ROM or kernel you could put on that phone, however, was a risk of "instability". In this case, this usually meant that the phone would randomly reboot, especially when doing something particularly tasking on the cpu(navigation was a particularly common culprit). In extreme cases, it would reboot and then go into soft bootloops once, twice, even five times. This happened more often with overclocked kernels, and most people had to look for multiple kernels and setcpu settings that would give them a balance between speed and stability. It took some trying and some tweaking. Most people would eventually get a setup that was solid. Even with a "rock solid" kernel and ROM setup, there were very few who NEVER experienced a random reboot when running a custom ROM/kernel. It was just something that happened. The other major issue people saw were force closes of apps. These were extremely common as well, but usually addressed more easily. Your setup was considered stable if you were confident that you could do all of your phone's functions without getting FC's and you weren't going to get a reboot 99% of the time. You could rely on it not to do anything unexpected.
I have, admittedly, not tested every ROM that exists for the MT4GS. I probably haven't tested half of them. I have however, tested most of the later releases with the exception of XMC's Jellybean. What I have found, however, is that out of all the ROMs I have tested for this device, each and every one one of them has met my personal definition of stable. I've never seen a random reboot on the MT4GS. If I see a FC, it's because I failed to clear data and cache before flashing something, forgot to flash or flashed the wrong version of gapps, or I'm trying to get something working that wasn't included in the ROM. It's for this reason that I really don't know how to respond accurately when someone asks something like "what's the most stable ROM for this phone?" or "I saw this particular ROM, can anyone tell me how stable it is?"
So I have two requests. The first is for anyone who cares to read all of this and answer. I'd like to ask you, if you are asking about how "stable" a rom is, what do you mean? Are you asking about whether it has bugs? They all have a bug list of what's working and what's not. Are you asking about whether it has a certain feature fully working? Once again, that's in the works/ doesn't work info usually including in the first post about the ROM.
Request 1:
Answer me this - What does "stable" mean to you?
Request 2:
When considering or just looking for info on a ROM and you have a question about this or that, be specific. If I've checked into a ROM, I very well might have an answer for you. If you just ask whether or not it's "stable", I don't know what you're asking
I can see where you're coming from.
Personally, stability for me is a rom that works well enough where the phone isn't bugged out entirely (has over 80% of the phone's default settings working such as calling or getting into e-mail, etc.).
In general, there are others who request too much and want utter perfection. No rom is ever going to be perfect, regardless of the stage of the rom (alpha, beta, release candidate).
Sent from my myTouch_4G_Slide using xda premium
To me a "stable" ROM is one where all of the phone's functions work as designed, meaning the camera, bluetooth, wifi, keyboard, etc. all function without having to do anything extraordinary. Also, the ROM itself doesn't require extraordinary measures to perform common functions and doesn't FC or random-boot. I can accept a few minor glitches, even stock ROMs from HTC have those. But, for my overall needs, I currently run only a stock-based ROM because I absolutely need the stability and all functions (especially the camera and stable wifi). This is my ONLY phone, I don't have another mobile nor a landline, so stability is #1 priority.
I've waited a long time for your post.
...and I agree with everything you've said thus far in principle.
The concept of stable is in and of itself a dynamic thing in a place like this under the many varied intentions of the people developing anything here.
Consider that in many cases things are made as examples, or proof of concept. Such things may be deemed stable by the creator on the particular proof, yet be unstable for other uses.
In many cases, such things are outlined by the developer and the bounds determining stability vary widely from project to project, and developer to developer.
In the retail world of say, phone sales, and the manufacturers guarantee against defects, the business world is held to a certain threshold of accountability for providing a working product.
For us here, there is no money involved - people aren't paying for a product, and so lose at most up time with the device while it gets sorted out. The total loss of the device itself, as in hard brick, due not to user error but to developer error is where I would say the minimum standard of stability lies.
That bears, in my eyes, the closest relation to the business world standard of a manufacturers guarantee against defects. Buggy software, and the clarification thereof being the topic to pick apart - i'd like to get a consensus of how many other people feel that simply not hard-bricking the device due to developer error is the complete polar opposite of:
karri0n said:
...
that coveted and rare specimen - the :victory:Stable Release.:victory:
...
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...where the quote is in-context of being a final, finished product.
The minimum threshold being the easier end of the debate to reach agreement on and build our understanding from.
....
So how does a developer get to stable projects?
Drawing a parallel from the manufacturing industry, the answer is quality control.
If your business is running assembly lines of product, at the end of the line needs to be a certain amount of quality control before shipping. Else the product could vary widely in stated ability and function. A shop with little to no quality control could be one equivalent to an unstable release.
This points us in a direction in the determination of stability - the comparable equivalent from our point of view is testing. You have to test your product (project) before sharing, else you don't know if it will work right.
Unlike an assembly line where testing is done on a random small sampling of pieces, a developer must rigorously test and retest the project (product) to ensure stability and reliability of function.
Of course, this begs the question of the standards involved in testing.
Ever seen this movie? The Pentagon Wars
It's a riot - but also illustrates the importance of standards in testing.
To us one way, arguably the most important way, is developing a consistent method of testing to properly evaluate the desired results.
Consider my first project of involvement at XDA was in understanding the differences in MicroSD cards for running CM7 booted off the Sdcard and not the internal memory of a device. Some cards were downright buttery smooth and amazing, other cards were downright impossible to work with. They were directly found to be the culprit of force closes, if it could be run at all.
Once we determined that there was a specific brand that could be consistently counted on to perform to spec (through a massive posting of speed test results by ever so many members of the community!!! :highfive: ) - I set about trying to determine how accurate the posted information was.
This thread: A Closer Look At MicroSD and Reader Speed
...was primarily established to determine how much the type of card reader used skewed the testing results.
Granted, i'm biased based on having written the article, but I would consider that project to be an example of rigorous standards of testing for a particular piece of information.
I use this example to make the point of stability. In this case it directly equates to validity of results. By recording all of the data, publishing all of the data, people can point out where my math may be wrong if i've made a mistake based on calculations of the raw published data.
( just like people can offer suggestions on published open-source code )
...or incorporate the results into further testing of their own - based on the validity ( stability ) of the data.
Another example of what I would consider trying to achieve a "stable release" of an answer to a question through rigorous testing: My first real doubleshot contribution.
So I put forth those two projects of mine to illustrate what I consider stable releases of information. If not, explain why?
So a stable release not only is important from a user perspective, but also from an open-source developers perspective.
How solid is the code(knowledge, information, etc...) being built on, if a coding (or other...) project? Is the code you are nudging in a direction you think would be interesting buggy to start with?
Is your own new code buggy to start with?
Do you just throw it out there and keep working with it until it works? Do you take the time to ensure it works to the best of your ability before releasing?
Both are very valid approaches - some radical concepts are seen to reality much more quickly because the incomplete thought was tossed into cyberspace to grow to maturity.
The developers ability to relay the type of project it is, and the expectations of use can in fact create the business world equivalent of 'buyer beware' in the context of placing the onus of determining stability on the end user.
Because stability really depends on perspective.
Saying that something is a daily-driver, i'd use it everyday kind of thing is most akin to the:
karri0n said:
...
that coveted and rare specimen - the :victory:Stable Release.:victory:
...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
...that we are trying to define as the upper end of finished.
There again though, this varies based on perspective.
Pretend a large enough user base decided they didn't care about not having any bluetooth ability. Along come some ROMs that don't include that function. They state such, and otherwise have bugs on a very individual user level basis, if at all.
To that user-base, those ROMs are stable. What about you? You lose your bluetooth headset and can't do without that. Being as bluetooth is a functional piece of equipment within the device, any ROM without it is technically unstable. Can we agree with this?
Stability can also be defined, at least in part, by a developers ability and attention to resolve issues "Immediately, if not sooner". This becomes a determination of stability based on the developers ability and timeliness in resolving issues.
Otherwise stable software can become corrupted through interaction with other code that doesn't agree with it. There are a lot of apps out there, and Android is an environment allowing for much more freedom then the app store.
Due to the increase of involvement of chaos theory throughout the Android environment, I'd put forth that the stability of any software is in part tied to the developers attention to unforeseen interactions due to the scope of Android at large.
Here again, is another example - by this definition:
"Bulletproof was more stable when I was actively working on it - before I had to take a leave of absence." During that leave time, the ROM is less stable then it was before, because any new problems aren't attended to.
But we can say that not only the level of attention, but the quality of that attention is important too.
A consistent voluntary lack of desire in chasing down new bugs and fixing them could be seen as the equivalent of that crappy customer service call. Maybe you just exceeded the developers interest in the project, and to that developer it was stable for it's intentions at the time, and has moved on.
From one perspective, the project was completely stable. From another, quite the opposite.
There again, you have developers moving on to other phones, or using projects as stepping stones to other goals. We would need to agree to be able to define something as "stable to a point" if the project was brought so far forwards before the developer left it behind for others to build on.
Sometimes while building bulletproof I threw out stability and claims/remarks thereof in order to challenge the community to define what it was to me.
In the end, stability to me correlates to the endless anal attention to detail - on all fronts. To write clean code, to properly wipe and prepare the device, and the burden of utilizing a stable product rests with both the producer and the user - even if the only user is the producer.
Given the many facets of 'Stability' in trying to define it - how accurately can we do so?
I look forward to the postings on this thought experiment.
How big is big?
I'd bet that the word "stable" means something slightly different to nearly everyone. As an active user that tinkers with their installation a lot "stable" means no more than a 1 problem that requires a reset every week or two. Different usage would mean different definitions. Another user on my account that primarily uses his smart phone for calls won't tolerate more than 1 problem a month and for him, even that is frustrating. For emergency personnel any problem that prevents phone usage would be way too many.
The word also has different meanings for different products. I wouldn't consider a router that has more than 1 or 2 problems a year stable. Commercial communications equipment I've worked with was deployed in environments where it was expected to run at least 2 years without a problem. It was so well designed that occasionally it would run 5 or more years and the end users would forget where it was located and sometimes even that it existed at all.
I guess language just sucks for this type of thing.
All I want is a sense-less ROM that doesn't have random reboots and I'll stick with this phone for another year. As it is now I can't freaking stand it. That's with a totally fresh wipe and install of Virtuous Inquisition. I just don't buy into the idea that these phones aren't meant to download all the apps and games we can fit off the play store (not that I do... I HAVE in the past but I've barely reinstalled anything since my most recent wipe). The idea that installing things is going to lead to issues that aren't the ROMs fault is crazy. The stock ROM doesn't have these issues with my apps being installed. I only rooted to get rid of that dumb genius button (and getting rid of sense was the icing on the cake although not totally necessary).
"Stable" should refer to a ROM that works completely fine except for 2-4 functions that are not essential to smartphone daily function.
"Stable" unfortunately refers to a ROM that boots around here.
Sent from my HTC MyTouch 4G Slide using xda premium
polarbearmc said:
All I want is a sense-less ROM that doesn't have random reboots and I'll stick with this phone for another year. As it is now I can't freaking stand it. That's with a totally fresh wipe and install of Virtuous Inquisition. I just don't buy into the idea that these phones aren't meant to download all the apps and games we can fit off the play store (not that I do... I HAVE in the past but I've barely reinstalled anything since my most recent wipe). The idea that installing things is going to lead to issues that aren't the ROMs fault is crazy. The stock ROM doesn't have these issues with my apps being installed. I only rooted to get rid of that dumb genius button (and getting rid of sense was the icing on the cake although not totally necessary).
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I can't say I've seen any problems like you are describing. I only used Vinq for a very short time, before I realized that wifi calling didn't work on it. CM9 a5 does not have any random reboots and has more features than Vinq working. That being said, I haven't heard of anyone facng random reboots using Vinq. if I had to guess, I would say it's related to the way Vinq tries to patch some elements of Sense and some elements of AOSP together, and they just don't get along. If it were me, I would move to cm9. I don't like sense's remnants tainting up my device, especially if they're going to lead to problems. the ONLY exception to this is the stock DoubleShot camera I would enjoy having that, but not if it meant that I had to run sense libs and it started causing conflicts with other parts of my AOSP.
I have been a fan of installing custom ROMs, root and other mods to my phones since I first owned an Android phone, which was a Sony Xpera Z3 Compact.
Back then I didn't care so much about security, because I was thinking 'What, are they gonna steal my Instagram account?'. But as I grew older the situation got more complex and now I feel the need to feel secure while using a ROM, which is almost never these days. So here are my reasons:
- Custom ROM developers have the exact same device as we do, so if they wanted to exploit it, they would exploit the hell out of it and get their hands on everything we have. (Looking at you, MIUI port)
- Some ROMs come with SELinux disabled which is a problem in itself, I believe.
- Even apps like Magisk, although they're open source (well, most of them) who knows what they're doing in the background.
- It is fairly easy to install a keylogger built into a custom ROM, how do we know that we are already not compromised a few times?
Am I being paranoid here? Or does everyone just want to install their flashy mods and get on with it, like I used to back in the day?
I would love to hear all of your opinions on this!
interesting thoughts and it's always good to be a little concerned about security and privacy!
for custom roms i think in general they tend to be more secure than most stock roms. especially when they have OFFICIAL status - you often get faster updates or updates at all if you have an older device.
unlike big company's, the developer of these roms do it for fun and in general don't have economical interest. so why would they want to steal data/insert backdoors or whatever? thats something company's and governments are interested in...
what i see is that these devs usually check exactly what's happening inside a ROM and a more likely to remove/block suspicious apps or whatever.
also custom ROMs are always open source, aren't they? so everyone can check what's happening... same like Magisk and stuff. everyone's gonna see it if you are trying to steal people's data or something.
i personally trust ROMs based on Lineage OS more than any other stock ROM because they're developed by normal people and not by greedy company's...
although im using MIUI right now because its comfortable but i don't really trust them chinese stuff in terms of data security
merlin.berlin said:
also custom ROMs are always open source, aren't they? so everyone can check what's happening... same like Magisk and stuff. everyone's gonna see it if you are trying to steal people's data or something.
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First off, thanks for sharing your thought on this. Second, that's been a long time debate, whether open source software is really secure or not. Because although the source of the code is open for inspection, especially in small projects - like device specific projects, many of the security threats and bugs go unnoticed. Of course I trust Magisk, because it is open source AND many Android enthusiasts know about it to a level.
But when it comes to custom ROMs, if you actually check the forum, most of them aren't open source. Hell, we don't even know where they're coming from in some cases (MIUI, EvolutionX etc...). Well, I agree with the Official custom ROMs, because most of the time they're open sourced. But you need to be aware that especially the MIUI ports on this forum, are grabbed from Russian forums. So now (I'm not accusing anyone here), possibly the Russians (4pda), Chinese (Xiaomi) and feds (lol) can reach your data.
I share these concerns. I don't understand why xda doesn't have a policy of not allowing custom roms which don't display their origin/source. Miui mods, Gapps I never use. Bottom line is that with all data collection and spying going on through devices one can only protect her/himself based on personal knowledge and level of concern. And official vs. unofficial is a non issue.
Well, shortly - they aren't secure and you can trust them as much as you trust a person behind them, which you probably don't know well - means not much. And even if there is no bad will from trustworthy community member, you still have to trust that they weren't hacked and let's be honest - big companies are being hacked fairly regularly, let alone hobbyst xda developers. Considering the small user base of the roms, in 99% cases nobody would even realize any malicious stuff happening.
Definitely most stock roms are more secure than custom roms. BUT. Then comes privacy. On stock roms, google, and in most cases phone manufacturer harvest virtually all your data and everything you do, so the only plus here is that you may believe that it will never leak. For me it's not better at all.
At this moment probably the best you can get is a custom rom from trustworthy project with big userbase and many eyes watching - Official Lineage OS builds or one of the few serious privacy focused projects.
Hey,
as somebody who has published ROMs here I really wanted to share my thoughts on this.
First of all, you are right on having concerns about the security of custom ROMs.
There are essentially two types of security at stake here: One is the security of your device, if a third person gets physical control over it. Here, the case is quite clear: The moment you unlock the bootloader, an attacker with physical access to the device will be able to flash anything he wants and essentially circumvent any locking mechanism you have in place. Encryption would help, but implementing properly in a custom ROM and still keeping the functionalities users like about custom ROMs (e.g. easy switching between them, proper updates without the need for OTA) is quite difficult. In short, if you want to prevent anybody who might access your phone physically from gaining access to your data, keep stock ROM and boot loader locked.
The second type is data security and privacy, which was treated in OP. And OP was right, that there is a possibility of adding nearly anything to the code. I am speaking for myself right now, but I guarantee you, that I have never added anything to the ROM code (which for all AOSP ROMs needs to be public, any single line can be reviewed), device tree (public on github as well) or kernel (needs to be published as well). I know, it is my word to be taken here and there is nothing preventing e from lying (because I could add local changes to the code that are never made public). And there is a lot of faith involved, which is why I started building my own ROM. So if anybody feels uncomfortable with installing a ROM that potentially could contain malicious changes, it is better to stay on the stock ROM. On the other side though, the probability that devs like me, that do this essentially for fun and because they want more features and better experience than stock has to offer on their own phones, will invest the time to add a keylogger or other malware to than exploit maybe 10 or 12 people that will actually run the ROM, is quite low imho. Xiaomi, Huawei (or any other company) might be forced by some government to install backdoors or reveal userdata as well. It essentially boils down to trusting the open source community and a dev or trusting some corporation. I honestly do not have an easy answer to this and it probably differs for each person.
As why some ROMs (including my AOSiP 10) run with SELinux on permissive: SELinux enforcing is tricky. If the policy is written poorly, it will prevent your phone from booting or block essential features. And although I am quite android and linux savy and can write my own code, getting SELinux right is still a challenge. On Pie we had an experienced dev like Offain who essentially did it for most others as we used his trees, but for Ten we are still trying to get the devices working to their full extent on a never kernel version (4.9 instead of 3.18). SELinux has a lower priority for me, although I definitely want to make it enforcing as soon as possible.
The example of the kernel is a good point though why I think that custom ROMs can be more secure than stock if you are ready to trust the devs: Most of us use a newer, more up to date kernel than Xiaomi with upstreamed security patches, provide Android security patches earlier than Xiaomi and probably will continue to do so even when for Xiaomi the device will have reached EOL. At the moment, stock probably is the safest in terms of integrity, although it lacks features and is not quite up-to-date. But I have found on any device I owned, that keeping it somewhat up-to-date after official EOL through custom ROMs was a very important part of being able to use it longer than its intended life span.
Long story short: I guarantee you all that I am not interested in your private data and will not try to extort you or sell your credit card information or whatever... If there are bugs and vulnerabilities they are absolutely unintentional and I will try to fix them to my best knowledge if I am made aware of them. Anyway, please think critically and feel free to make the decision you feel best with.
opal06 said:
Hey,
as somebody who has published ROMs here I really wanted to share my thoughts on this.
First of all, you are right on having concerns about the security of custom ROMs.
There are essentially two types of security at stake here: One is the security of your device, if a third person gets physical control over it. Here, the case is quite clear: The moment you unlock the bootloader, an attacker with physical access to the device will be able to flash anything he wants and essentially circumvent any locking mechanism you have in place. Encryption would help, but implementing properly in a custom ROM and still keeping the functionalities users like about custom ROMs (e.g. easy switching between them, proper updates without the need for OTA) is quite difficult. In short, if you want to prevent anybody who might access your phone physically from gaining access to your data, keep stock ROM and boot loader locked.
The second type is data security and privacy, which was treated in OP. And OP was right, that there is a possibility of adding nearly anything to the code. I am speaking for myself right now, but I guarantee you, that I have never added anything to the ROM code (which for all AOSP ROMs needs to be public, any single line can be reviewed), device tree (public on github as well) or kernel (needs to be published as well). I know, it is my word to be taken here and there is nothing preventing e from lying (because I could add local changes to the code that are never made public). And there is a lot of faith involved, which is why I started building my own ROM. So if anybody feels uncomfortable with installing a ROM that potentially could contain malicious changes, it is better to stay on the stock ROM. On the other side though, the probability that devs like me, that do this essentially for fun and because they want more features and better experience than stock has to offer on their own phones, will invest the time to add a keylogger or other malware to than exploit maybe 10 or 12 people that will actually run the ROM, is quite low imho. Xiaomi, Huawei (or any other company) might be forced by some government to install backdoors or reveal userdata as well. It essentially boils down to trusting the open source community and a dev or trusting some corporation. I honestly do not have an easy answer to this and it probably differs for each person.
As why some ROMs (including my AOSiP 10) run with SELinux on permissive: SELinux enforcing is tricky. If the policy is written poorly, it will prevent your phone from booting or block essential features. And although I am quite android and linux savy and can write my own code, getting SELinux right is still a challenge. On Pie we had an experienced dev like Offain who essentially did it for most others as we used his trees, but for Ten we are still trying to get the devices working to their full extent on a never kernel version (4.9 instead of 3.18). SELinux has a lower priority for me, although I definitely want to make it enforcing as soon as possible.
The example of the kernel is a good point though why I think that custom ROMs can be more secure than stock if you are ready to trust the devs: Most of us use a newer, more up to date kernel than Xiaomi with upstreamed security patches, provide Android security patches earlier than Xiaomi and probably will continue to do so even when for Xiaomi the device will have reached EOL. At the moment, stock probably is the safest in terms of integrity, although it lacks features and is not quite up-to-date. But I have found on any device I owned, that keeping it somewhat up-to-date after official EOL through custom ROMs was a very important part of being able to use it longer than its intended life span.
Long story short: I guarantee you all that I am not interested in your private data and will not try to extort you or sell your credit card information or whatever... If there are bugs and vulnerabilities they are absolutely unintentional and I will try to fix them to my best knowledge if I am made aware of them. Anyway, please think critically and feel free to make the decision you feel best with.
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Click to collapse
exactly, we don't need your data, just why we would want it. additionally, as you said, all is open sources so OP can check all. everything was written here, perfect answer
opal06's post is right on the money as explanation to what security can mean for rom/device. No need to be defensive though, trust in developers is the only thing that keeps the custom roms community going and I've been using them since Gingerbread.
On the other hand, I must say, custom roms that come pre-loaded with all bells and whistles from Google diminish the trust factor.
celrau said:
On the other hand, I must say, custom roms that come pre-loaded with all bells and whistles from Google diminish the trust factor.
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How come ? Could you explain that ?
marstonpear said:
How come ? Could you explain that ?
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I guess what he means is that Google is notorious for grabbing any bit of data and having a custom ROM preloaded with Google stuff diminishes the need for installing it ib the first place, as it will have the same privacy concerns regarding Google as stock has. In general, Google's involvment into Android is a reason for concern to many, myself included. But there are very few ROMs that actually try to be privacy focused and get rid of Google entirely, although the situation can be improved by using MicroG services instead of GAPPS. They already work on many ROMs
opal06 said:
I guess what he means is that Google is notorious for grabbing any bit of data and having a custom ROM preloaded with Google stuff diminishes the need for installing it ib the first place, as it will have the same privacy concerns regarding Google as stock has. In general, Google's involvment into Android is a reason for concern to many, myself included. But there are very few ROMs that actually try to be privacy focused and get rid of Google entirely, although the situation can be improved by using MicroG services instead of GAPPS. They already work on many ROMs
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Click to collapse
I was half way through typing pretty much the same thing when I noticed your post, that's exactly what I meant. One more thing, some people really need Gapps (i.e. for some banking apps) but they should install them themselves as opposed to providing custom roms with Gapps preinstalled.
Thank you guys for sharing your thoughts on this! I believe all we can do is trust our devs with our info and devices and as a paranoid user, I believe I won't be able to do that, so I'll stick to stock ROMs for our device. But I also believe this has been very helpful for other users who want to try custom ROMs and if they're not as paranoid as I am, they can safely use the open-sourced/official ROMs in the forum. Cheers.
marstonpear said:
Thank you guys for sharing your thoughts on this! I believe all we can do is trust our devs with our info and devices and as a paranoid user, I believe I won't be able to do that, so I'll stick to stock ROMs for our device. But I also believe this has been very helpful for other users who want to try custom ROMs and if they're not as paranoid as I am, they can safely use the open-sourced/official ROMs in the forum. Cheers.
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I wouldn't call it being paranoid, I think it's very sane.
I agree and have similar view on that, but please ask yourself a question - how much you trust Xiaomi and their security measures? Because in terms of privacy it's obvious that nothing worse than Xiaomi plus Google can happen to you. If you're really what you call "paranoid" you should rather get a device with official Lineage OS support that you would download directly from their servers or systems mentioned here: https://www.privacytools.io/operating-systems/#mobile_os
Thread closed at OP request