Related
Hey everyone,
Well it's great to see that the XDA community is still as vibrant as it was the last time I visited (which was quite some time ago). For those of you who remember, the last time I was active on this forum, was when I made this post (http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=401882) . Now, since then a lot has happened, including the death of my HTC wizard (long story), but anyway, the short version is I was assigned to a few development projects that sadly ripped my attention away from the XDA forums and I apologize for not at the very least mentioning this fact before my departure.
I've made a few trips around the mobile phone world, and I'm seriously thinking about returning to windows mobile, primarily for development purposes. I've grown a lot as a developer during my time away from these forums, and I'm nothing but eager to jump back into the idea of making new, fresh and innovative software for a platform with endless possibilities.
Anyway, I just thought I'd drop a line to let those of you who still remember me, know that I'm alive and to keep an eye out for at least one beta project when/if I get my new WinMo phone. It would be a great encouragement, if any graphic artist out there pledged some form of support, since the lack of graphics and graphics sense was always a huge setback for me in the past.
-Chad (Thundy).
moved to general
welcome back
I tip my hat to you sir.
Welcome back!
Maybe some graphic support here: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=493698
Thanks for the responses guys!
Since I've been out of the WinMo loop for such a long time, I'm wondering what some of the major discussion points for future applications are. Apart from the usual shortcomings the OS itself presents to users, what are some really hot topics of interest as of recently?
In terms of apps, I've noticed A_C pretty much realized the ideas I had in my head with S2P really well. Although I never really got to try it out, but judging from the quality of his other apps, I'm 100% sure it's just as amazing!
UI seems to always have room for improvement, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I haven't seen any projects that look to fill the gaps that existed since the last time I was active on the forum. As a developer, I'm well aware of the challenges that new UI's present in terms of memory management etc. But I was really hopeful .
Personally, I think it would really give developers and artists a boost, if we had something else to play with in terms of developing rich user friendly interfaces for windows mobile. Maybe if the new .NET CF opened up the use of WPF technology and by extension Blend for interface building. At the very least, it would spark new interest and life into the creation of truly unique software development.
These ideas roll around in my head when I think about Windows Mobile 6.5 and 7.0 in the future!
Thoughts??
I wrote about it here: LINK
Does anyone know more about the background - from the twitter account it seems like just a general run-down and a disappointing community.
Other developers on here feel the same?
I'd love to get comments from some of the developers on here, if that is the case.
I'm not a developer but did read this already on a posting at Google+.
But you are right, moving into that direction would be very bad.
Some people think they can be rude because they stay anonymous.
Its something that happens more and more these days on the internet.
I realize it's impossible - there are 12 year olds who probably run rampant.
Seems like there is SOMETHING that can be done.
I'm as Pro-Android as they come. But at times it feels like starting a relationship with a beautiful boy/girl only to find they come with a sack load of emotional baggage.
Here's my take on it: http://andgamesdevblog.blogspot.com/2011/09/android-culture-its-own-worst-enemy.html
I am far from giving up (thick skinned) but there is a real troll culture growing and needs to be stomped out. Anonymity has it's uses but, as with everything else, has its drawbacks. What we need is troll hunters!
Paul
(aka Strangemoo)
I have seen that there are some stupid comments on the market... But not so extreme as to take down your app...
Some users is just plain stupid... I'm from Denmark, so a lot of the comments are in danish... But that devs are many times foreign and really don't look or understand the comments... But a lot of them complain about pathetic things like no app 2 sd or that some function suddenly's gone instead of just writing the dev an email about the issue and giving the app the respect it deserves... 1/5 rating is a lot of the times not justified...
Just my 2-cents...
I'm sorry but this is a silly and immature move by the developer. Receiving negative feedback, dealing with trolls and idiotic users that don't understand technology are fundamental assumptions of the internet, just like not giving out your passwords or helping Nigerian princes get their money out of Africa.
I loved ShootMe and used it for our screenshots, but I don't have a lot of empathy for people that empower others to control how they feel.
Wrote about this a few weeks back: http://www.androidstatic.com/what-shootme-removed-from-the-android-market
I work in IT support and one of the things I have to support is phones. It blows my mind how many 10-12 year old kids have nicer phones than I do because their rich mommy and daddys think their precious little angels needs the latest and greatest smart phones. I went over to a client's office a couple of months ago and he had 3 brand new Droid 2s for his kids, ranging from 10-14.
Point of all this?
In this day and age, there are so many rude little kids with nice phones all over these forums, its amazing to me anyone sticks around. Im over 40 and was raised in a different time than these self entitled children I see around here that want everything now, for free and want you to do it for them.
I cant blame the guy for leaving. A lot of times I wish I could go live on an island somewhere where I didnt have to deal with people because most of them suck.
s15274n said:
I wrote about it here: LINK
Does anyone know more about the background - from the twitter account it seems like just a general run-down and a disappointing community.
Other developers on here feel the same?
I'd love to get comments from some of the developers on here, if that is the case.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm not a developer, but I was a ShootMe user on my EVO 4G. When it received the upgrade to Gingerbread, the app stopped working. The developer never replied to my email and from reading comments on Market didn't reply to anyone.
He did finally released a new version of ShootMe, but you had to have a computer to use it. Also everytime your reboot your phone, you had to sync everytime with your computer.
Sent from my HTC EVO 3D using Tapatalk
Welcome to the "masses".
Want a better experience? Go smaller. Dev for Windows Phone, or Web OS, or RIM.
Once something becomes part of the main stream, you'll see the d-bags start rolling in. Even something like xda can be tarnished once it "gets too big". There is hardly a day that goes by where I don't read a thread here that doesn't make me shake my head. This used to be a highly technical forum, back when every devices was htc and running windows mobile.
The only thing that can really be done, is to work with a smaller, more appreciative community. I doubt you would get very many jerk off comments from a Windows Phone user, they are happy to get whatever they can.
All very good points. I wish I had put a little into my thoughts before typing that up - dev's need to be tougher AND respond to people.
s15274n said:
All very good points. I wish I had put a little into my thoughts before typing that up - dev's need to be tougher AND respond to people.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
As a android developer IMHO the android community is as bad as they come. Xda for example used to be a place of collaboration. Currently its a place where maybe .1% do dev, .9% appreciate the development and try to help, 99% ether complain or say nothing at all. Whether the development is for free or profite(which I won't evev get into here) how is a developer supposed to work off of that? Users would rather right a comment blasting a developer who has literally spent days of his life on some product without even attempting to resolve the issue themselves.
I'm not saying some complaints are not warranted, just saying flip the coin around and its not so hard to understand the developers standpoint.
Sent from my Xoom using Tapatalk
There is no denying that there is frustration on both sides. This frustration seems to stem from expectation, communication and control.
The developer expects their customers to be civil.
The users expects the developers to devote anything between some to all of their resources/free time building/making their products better.
Both are unreasonable expectations if you think about it.
Civility can only be maintained in a mediated environment - the Android Market seems only concerned about brand and copyright issues. Google seems to think that it's ok to put its developer behind chicken-wire with lights in their eyes whilst their customers are free to hurl beer bottles at them. Dealing with anony-trolls is time consuming and offputting.
Developers range from teenagers with spare time on their hands up to multi-million dollar development studios. I, myself, am a father of three, I work a full week (we've got to eat!) and I code when time permits. Even though I respond to every request put to my apps, if you think that I'm going to compromise the balance of other areas of my life to put in a bug fix - think again. Sure, some of the more effluent businesses can throw more resources into a project, but just bare in mind that most of us are just people and not doormats. Respect and encouragement is all it takes to make the market a happy place. Flaming just ruins things for all (on both sides).
Communication between devs and end users is and most likely always will be a bit of a sticking point. The fact that everyone has their own opinions, likes, dislikes kind of makes it obvious that there will never be an app with 100% 5 stars. Even the most popular apps on the market have ratings across the board. Though, admittedly, some of the low grades may be down to trolling - but some of them will be genuine. Communication takes time. From a user, it may take a couple of minutes out of their day. For the dev, they may have hundreds a day to deal with. This takes them away from the development that the mail is probably asking for!
A user doesn't, and should never have control over the developer. They should, however, be able to request, beg, plead *nicely*. If they get frustrated then they should remember the phrase 'you get what you pay for'. The developer doesn't get any money when you bought your phone - so don't think they have any obligation to give you something for nothing. If it's a paid app, then the developer is saying 'yes, I'll support it.' That's fair sport.
The developer should have some control over their customers in the sense that a shopkeeper can choose who they let in their shops. Unfortunately they have none. They can't even moderate the comments on the market. I've had a 'GAY - Pointless, uninstall' (his words, not mine) on a free app downloaded 12,000 times and has a 4* rating. I can't do anything about it. It always appears when people go to the page. This individual has hurt my app and me without provocation. I didn't ask anything from them. Fortunately, the following message pointed out that the 'Pointless' user was an idiot (thanks XZombie), hopefully it will negate some of the damage. We're completely at the mercy of the masses, and being a relatively new dev, it's a scary place to be!
It's a shame that the most influential party in all of this is hiding behind a wall of silence.
If you're interested - I'm keeping a track of my experience of Android development. The link is in my earlier post.
Paul
Strangemoo
Paul, I do agree with you to a point. But I'm not sure if I like about developers editing comments. But I do see what you mean about people leaving dumb comments for an app that does work.
Sent from my HTC EVO 3D using Tapatalk
Katt,
I don't suggest developers could edit comments - that would make the process equally pointless, as devs can put all of the 'nice' things they want in the description anyway. Sorry if I implied otherwise.
Devs should be able to either remove, request for removal or even block the rogue elements. At present, we have to just live with the insults with no way to disprove their claims. Even a 'troll flag' would be an improvement - to show other users that the dev disagrees with the comment.
All accountability is on the devs whereas trolls can run freely.
Do any other devs out there agree with me on this? Others may have had a much more dealings with such than I have.
Cheers,
Paul
IMO if google was smart they would allow for a limited ammount(% of total) of "submissions" of there comments to a third party(google). If they are found outlandish they can be removed.
My 2 cents lol. I can say as a dev of a few apps on the market I have gotten rediculous comments n 1 stars b4. I mean if they are justified that's a different thing entirely. But my 1 stars are disproportionally higher then the trend of the others. Which proves one thing...
Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk
This is an honestly great thread. Good initiative to |OP|
Taking down an app just because of a few nasty comments is just
childish and quite frankly pathetic.
Seems that developer has chucked his toys out the pram, if he does
decide to release it again who is going to trust such a developer?
I know I wouldn't use the app again, seeing as he's stuck 2 fingers up
to loyal users and the whole android community all because of a small
minority of people.
The whole thing stinks of the guy thinking he is above any kind of bad
feedback, obviously a developer that doesn't listen to the users of his
app and a developer that turns his back at the drop of a hat.
I'm sure he will be missed... Not
Ps. there are better screenshot apps out there
I agree with your comment. Though I am not a dev. I have experience working in the retail end of software. This is a I want it now society, folks forget that they got this software/app for free and as soon as they have a little issue they fly off the deep end cussing out the maker/distribitor of the product. Anyhow like you said you get what you pay for.LIke in my IT course in school my book said "check the dummy behind the keyboard" anyhow thanks for the great apps i use the time flies app.
If a dev dropped his customers because of a couple of snide comments then, yeah, I'd agree with you.
But was that the case for ShootMe?
Before we start flinging hooks around here, wouldn't it be more productive to actually find out what happened first.
I may be proven wrong here, but the guy must've been given some serious grief to take such a newsworthy action.
In fact, that's not been mentioned - it could be media storming. Drum up enough publicity and come back blazing. Only time will tell on that one.
At the end of the day, it's his property. And if he makes a lot of people unhappy that's his prerogative. The reason he's giving though are indeed a real issue the community needs to address.
The plot thickens.
(Glad you like Times Flies! You're most welcome)
Paul
I've noticed that the flavor of a community will vary a lot by device. The Captivate community seems to be generally good and helpful for the most part, but I've heard horror stories of ungratefulness and rudeness about communities around other devices. It may be the same sort of thing with different varieties of apps. If people feel like an app performs a function they deserve outright, they may be less inclined to courtesy and more inclined to selfish expectation.
Removed the OP in protest due to the abusive I endured by some XDA members. In spite of reporting them to the moderates of the forums in question and my views were shared with more members than the abusers one of my threads was closed instead.
To those truly care about technology and its surrounding matters, please accept my sincere apologies for this inconvenience. I will no longer be part of the XDA community. Thank you.
Holy ****, someone here has a massive grudge against Google and Android.
CSharpHeaven said:
Part 2
Applications & Games
The very exaggerated figure (over 400,000) by Google is only to generate market hypes and to give an impression how popular the Android platform is.
The truth is Google has used hundreds of thousands of hopeful individuals with prospect of success to submit anything to fight back Apple's App Store, only in terms of numbers that is. The chance to success, financially, on Google's Play Store is only very small for established vendors and even smaller for individuals when the competition exceeds by vast numbers. Think of the odds in lottery to come to the same conclusion.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You see, you seem to be making contradictions on your own writing.
They never said 400,000 amazing super duper apps, they said 400,000 apps, no matter what quality.
Spell checker?
Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk
nejc121 said:
Holy ****, someone here has a massive grudge against Google and Android.
You see, you seem to be making contradictions on your own writing.
They never said 400,000 amazing super duper apps, they said 400,000 apps, no matter what quality.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm glad you are not the only XDA member that can read.
what boggles me is that android is the first os that has gotten my trust, for better or for worse. as strange as it may sound, i like updates, i am happy when notifications drop in and i certainly read the changelogs and see what's new. no other OS has ever been able to do that to me. i am using windows at work, macosx at home and linux for website-server stuff. some of these systems are here for decades, and yet they have never really taken care of my needs. i have no trust in them and never had, i click away update nagscreens whenever i see them, i hate when firefox bugs me with it, i dont trust any application, i know they put their dump onto my harddrives, mess it all up from inside, they have brought their own installation/deinstallation scripts and deamons for updates that clog my ram and suck my bandwidth, they are unsigned and unsafe, they spam my screen with popups, i do not know what permissions they require and what api's they call - they do whatever the hell they want. i use them because i have to.
yes, android has kinks and problems, but this is the cleanest OS, from a users standpoint, i have seen and used. my technical background may be lacking but this was my first impression. and because of that i can deal with buggy apps just fine, i either tollerate it or uninstall and search for something works on the market. and for some crazy reason i enjoy it, although i hated it on pc/mac/linux. so in this regard i think the app-market is doing great. it is true of course that the quality from app to app varies alot, but many do have high standards and work flawlessly. i for one think it is good that the android market does not have severe restrictions, because updates can get pushed when a defect is found. you have the opposite on apple and i did read reports that state their apps generally crash more often, which makes absolute sense because each update must go through an odyssey of admittance. bugs itself will always happen, every programmer knows that, but the android market has made sure that we do not suffer from them as much as on other systems. the underbelly of android with its signing-mechanisms, permission-transparency, packet-installer, subtle notifications, etc., all this works for me and im using my desktop less and less for a reason.
molesarecoming said:
what boggles me is that android is the first os that has gotten my trust, for better or for worse. as strange as it may sound, i like updates, i am happy when notifications drop in and i certainly read the changelogs and see what's new. no other OS has ever been able to do that to me. i am using windows at work, macosx at home and linux for website stuff. some of these systems are here for decades, and yet they have never really taken care of my needs. i have no trust in them and never had, i click away update nagscreens whenever i see them, i hate when firefox bugs me with it, i dont trust any application, i know they put their dump into my systems, mess it up from inside, they have brought their own installation/deinstallation scripts and deamons for updates that clog my ram and suck my bandwidth, they are unsigned and unsafe, they spam my screen with popups, i do not know what permissions they require and what api's they call - they do whatever they want. i use them because i have to.
yes, android has kinks and problems, but this is the cleanest OS, from a users standpoint, i have seen and used. my technical background may be lacking but this is the first impression. and because of that i can deal with buggy apps just fine, i either tollerate it or uninstall and search for something works on the market. and for some crazy reason i enjoy it, although i hated it on pc/mac/linux. so in this regard i think the app-market is doing great. it is true of course that the quality of the apps varies alot, but many do have high standards and work flawlessly. i for one think it is good that the android market does not have severe restrictions, because updates can get pushed when a defect is found. you have the opposite on apple and i did read reports that state their apps generally crash more often, which makes absolute sense because each update must go through an odyssey of admittance. bugs itself will always happen, every programmer knows that, but the android market has made sure that we do not suffer from them as much as on other systems.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thank you for your inputs. I would like to clarify a couple of things, if you don't mind.
I have never made a comment about the Google Play Store's update process that updates the downloaded applications. Since you did, I do agree with you regarding the advantages you rightly addressed. What I might not agree with you is the trust where my credit card details can be added to the profile Google creates for all the citizens.
My point, that you responded to, was about the inability Android OS has to update itself the way, for example, Microsoft Windows or Apple's iOS can. Also the only thing Android can update on any Android handsets is the Google Play Store app. I found this very unfair when thousands of users, behalf the rest, were campaigning to push their respective manufacturers to release the next version of Android. During such campaign I fell ill from the distress. I cannot recall going through such similar experience in my 20+ in I.T. Believe me, being a software developer I can tolerate high mental pressures but that experience was something else. I don't wish anyone else go through the same experience ever and they shouldn't really.
I've been writing this article with the consideration of the bigger issues. I cannot conclude Android is a good platform based on a small technical convenience when I have vivid visions on what Google is doing with Android and beyond the mobile space.
If my ID suggests I must be a Microsoft's fan then allow me to say to the readers that I have only two Android phones which I use one of them to write my article and this response. Also I use an Android phone as my primary device, using up to three 1930mAh batteries a day. No, I don't watch movies on my phones but listen to music from time to time.
nejc121 said:
Holy ****, someone here has a massive grudge against Google and Android.
You see, you seem to be making contradictions on your own writing.
They never said 400,000 amazing super duper apps, they said 400,000 apps, no matter what quality.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
His name leads me to believe Microsoft Fanboi - C# is a Microsoft language very similar to java - but has enough similarities to be it's own language.
edit - you posted at a similar time to me.
I will read this from now on, but probably won't comment. I enjoy hearing what ppl have to say.
i have to use c# daily in my job, its great, my favourite until now. did you know that google once played with the thought to make it androids base language? read it somewhere. must be a myth though.
---------- Post added at 11:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:04 PM ----------
CSharpHeaven said:
I found this very unfair when thousands of users, behalf the rest, were campaigning to push their respective manufacturers to release the next version of Android. During such campaign I fell ill from the distress. I cannot recall going through such similar experience in my 20+ in I.T.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
well, i am certainly pissed that my older handset, the s2, caught a disease called touchwizz recently instead of the modern operatig system i was hoping for. but falling ill? come on, get another phone, an iphone maybe, or if you still have hopes for android a nexus, and all will be fine. i learned my lesson from this, i'll never, ever buy something that is not directly maintained by google itself. i heard some people really loved touchwiz and samsungs efforts, to each his own. i thing its nice though that you have the choice.
Many of you are going to know all this, and many know far better than I. Please, those that do, please step in and correct my information if I make any mistakes.
I see the word stable thrown around a lot - "Is this ROM stable", "stable release", etc.
I want to attempt to pin down a definition when in use for regular conversation, and I also want to address that there is one use of the word that is clearly defined and cannot be used lightly.
First, in the development/open source world, the vast majority of projects you will see are in beta or sometimes even alpha. This means that it's still in some sort of testing phase, and there are usually some bugs that need to be ironed out before it's termed a "finished product". By the very nature of software and developers' desire to be honest, it's quite common that there are some pieces of software that will never leave beta(and some even used in a corporate production environment. "beta" is not a death sentence and doesn't mean there's something fatally flawed). There is always more work to be done, a bug here, something to smooth out there, something that needs to be optimized, etc. A developer can not be satisfied to release a final version. That being said, it does happen. Once it reaches past beta, it often gets promoted to a "release candidate".
A release candidate, or RC, means that they are fairly satisfied that bugs are taken care of, and that they are PRETTY sure there's no major flaw lurking in the depths waiting for the perfect moment to rise and bring down death and destruction upon any innocent fool who crosses its path. This is the final step leading up to that coveted and rare specimen - the :victory:Stable Release.:victory:
Once the release candidate has gone through rigorous testing by developers, users, testers, etc, it can finally become a stable release. It's a big risk to label something as a stable release. This is the developer giving you their word and staking their reputation to say "there are no bugs in this piece of software. It is being released as a final version and will not cause you any trouble".
I beg you to correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe there are stable releases for any any ROM for the MT4GS. Once again, this is very common in the development world, and not just for phones. Just take a look at the number of projects on slashdot that are widely used by thousands of people with no trouble - much of them sitting in beta or even alpha.
Now is where we run into some ambiguity using the term. At a passing glance, and certainly to the uninformed, seeing that software isn't "stable" will naturally and intuitively lead one to believe it must be somehow unstable. Given the nature of open source and development, we know that this isn't necessarily the case. There may be something very minor that only comes up in certain situations, the developer may still feel that there hasn't been enough testing to rule out any bugs, or there may be no bugs at all but the developer is not yet satisfied with the completeness, speed, or number of features.
Now, I would like to address how the word is used in conversation or when asking questions about a ROM. Stability itself, is absolutely very important, with good reason, to a vast majority of people who own a mobile phone. This is often their only source of communication and is required for work, for emergencies, and for generally keeping in contact. If the phone fails to function in a manner that keeps the user reliably connected to their web resources as well as phone, email and messaging communication, there could very well be disastrous results. Therefore, asking if the rom is stable is very valid and relevant, but due to the fact that the word stable can have such an ambiguous definition, and is also a term for a particular stage in development, communication can break down pretty quickly between parties when the term starts getting tossed around.
The device I had previously was a Motorola Droid 1(OG Droid, Sholes, etc.). This phone had a huge and extremely active development community on many different websites. Many devs still hold the moto droid in a special place in their hearts for how hackable it was, the power it had for a device at the time of its release, and the massive userbase ranging from those with no technical ability at all to some of the best hackers ever to work on Android. This device truly represented the renaissance, if not the birth, of custom development for android devices.One thing that was extremely common across almost any ROM or kernel you could put on that phone, however, was a risk of "instability". In this case, this usually meant that the phone would randomly reboot, especially when doing something particularly tasking on the cpu(navigation was a particularly common culprit). In extreme cases, it would reboot and then go into soft bootloops once, twice, even five times. This happened more often with overclocked kernels, and most people had to look for multiple kernels and setcpu settings that would give them a balance between speed and stability. It took some trying and some tweaking. Most people would eventually get a setup that was solid. Even with a "rock solid" kernel and ROM setup, there were very few who NEVER experienced a random reboot when running a custom ROM/kernel. It was just something that happened. The other major issue people saw were force closes of apps. These were extremely common as well, but usually addressed more easily. Your setup was considered stable if you were confident that you could do all of your phone's functions without getting FC's and you weren't going to get a reboot 99% of the time. You could rely on it not to do anything unexpected.
I have, admittedly, not tested every ROM that exists for the MT4GS. I probably haven't tested half of them. I have however, tested most of the later releases with the exception of XMC's Jellybean. What I have found, however, is that out of all the ROMs I have tested for this device, each and every one one of them has met my personal definition of stable. I've never seen a random reboot on the MT4GS. If I see a FC, it's because I failed to clear data and cache before flashing something, forgot to flash or flashed the wrong version of gapps, or I'm trying to get something working that wasn't included in the ROM. It's for this reason that I really don't know how to respond accurately when someone asks something like "what's the most stable ROM for this phone?" or "I saw this particular ROM, can anyone tell me how stable it is?"
So I have two requests. The first is for anyone who cares to read all of this and answer. I'd like to ask you, if you are asking about how "stable" a rom is, what do you mean? Are you asking about whether it has bugs? They all have a bug list of what's working and what's not. Are you asking about whether it has a certain feature fully working? Once again, that's in the works/ doesn't work info usually including in the first post about the ROM.
Request 1:
Answer me this - What does "stable" mean to you?
Request 2:
When considering or just looking for info on a ROM and you have a question about this or that, be specific. If I've checked into a ROM, I very well might have an answer for you. If you just ask whether or not it's "stable", I don't know what you're asking
I can see where you're coming from.
Personally, stability for me is a rom that works well enough where the phone isn't bugged out entirely (has over 80% of the phone's default settings working such as calling or getting into e-mail, etc.).
In general, there are others who request too much and want utter perfection. No rom is ever going to be perfect, regardless of the stage of the rom (alpha, beta, release candidate).
Sent from my myTouch_4G_Slide using xda premium
To me a "stable" ROM is one where all of the phone's functions work as designed, meaning the camera, bluetooth, wifi, keyboard, etc. all function without having to do anything extraordinary. Also, the ROM itself doesn't require extraordinary measures to perform common functions and doesn't FC or random-boot. I can accept a few minor glitches, even stock ROMs from HTC have those. But, for my overall needs, I currently run only a stock-based ROM because I absolutely need the stability and all functions (especially the camera and stable wifi). This is my ONLY phone, I don't have another mobile nor a landline, so stability is #1 priority.
I've waited a long time for your post.
...and I agree with everything you've said thus far in principle.
The concept of stable is in and of itself a dynamic thing in a place like this under the many varied intentions of the people developing anything here.
Consider that in many cases things are made as examples, or proof of concept. Such things may be deemed stable by the creator on the particular proof, yet be unstable for other uses.
In many cases, such things are outlined by the developer and the bounds determining stability vary widely from project to project, and developer to developer.
In the retail world of say, phone sales, and the manufacturers guarantee against defects, the business world is held to a certain threshold of accountability for providing a working product.
For us here, there is no money involved - people aren't paying for a product, and so lose at most up time with the device while it gets sorted out. The total loss of the device itself, as in hard brick, due not to user error but to developer error is where I would say the minimum standard of stability lies.
That bears, in my eyes, the closest relation to the business world standard of a manufacturers guarantee against defects. Buggy software, and the clarification thereof being the topic to pick apart - i'd like to get a consensus of how many other people feel that simply not hard-bricking the device due to developer error is the complete polar opposite of:
karri0n said:
...
that coveted and rare specimen - the :victory:Stable Release.:victory:
...
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...where the quote is in-context of being a final, finished product.
The minimum threshold being the easier end of the debate to reach agreement on and build our understanding from.
....
So how does a developer get to stable projects?
Drawing a parallel from the manufacturing industry, the answer is quality control.
If your business is running assembly lines of product, at the end of the line needs to be a certain amount of quality control before shipping. Else the product could vary widely in stated ability and function. A shop with little to no quality control could be one equivalent to an unstable release.
This points us in a direction in the determination of stability - the comparable equivalent from our point of view is testing. You have to test your product (project) before sharing, else you don't know if it will work right.
Unlike an assembly line where testing is done on a random small sampling of pieces, a developer must rigorously test and retest the project (product) to ensure stability and reliability of function.
Of course, this begs the question of the standards involved in testing.
Ever seen this movie? The Pentagon Wars
It's a riot - but also illustrates the importance of standards in testing.
To us one way, arguably the most important way, is developing a consistent method of testing to properly evaluate the desired results.
Consider my first project of involvement at XDA was in understanding the differences in MicroSD cards for running CM7 booted off the Sdcard and not the internal memory of a device. Some cards were downright buttery smooth and amazing, other cards were downright impossible to work with. They were directly found to be the culprit of force closes, if it could be run at all.
Once we determined that there was a specific brand that could be consistently counted on to perform to spec (through a massive posting of speed test results by ever so many members of the community!!! :highfive: ) - I set about trying to determine how accurate the posted information was.
This thread: A Closer Look At MicroSD and Reader Speed
...was primarily established to determine how much the type of card reader used skewed the testing results.
Granted, i'm biased based on having written the article, but I would consider that project to be an example of rigorous standards of testing for a particular piece of information.
I use this example to make the point of stability. In this case it directly equates to validity of results. By recording all of the data, publishing all of the data, people can point out where my math may be wrong if i've made a mistake based on calculations of the raw published data.
( just like people can offer suggestions on published open-source code )
...or incorporate the results into further testing of their own - based on the validity ( stability ) of the data.
Another example of what I would consider trying to achieve a "stable release" of an answer to a question through rigorous testing: My first real doubleshot contribution.
So I put forth those two projects of mine to illustrate what I consider stable releases of information. If not, explain why?
So a stable release not only is important from a user perspective, but also from an open-source developers perspective.
How solid is the code(knowledge, information, etc...) being built on, if a coding (or other...) project? Is the code you are nudging in a direction you think would be interesting buggy to start with?
Is your own new code buggy to start with?
Do you just throw it out there and keep working with it until it works? Do you take the time to ensure it works to the best of your ability before releasing?
Both are very valid approaches - some radical concepts are seen to reality much more quickly because the incomplete thought was tossed into cyberspace to grow to maturity.
The developers ability to relay the type of project it is, and the expectations of use can in fact create the business world equivalent of 'buyer beware' in the context of placing the onus of determining stability on the end user.
Because stability really depends on perspective.
Saying that something is a daily-driver, i'd use it everyday kind of thing is most akin to the:
karri0n said:
...
that coveted and rare specimen - the :victory:Stable Release.:victory:
...
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...that we are trying to define as the upper end of finished.
There again though, this varies based on perspective.
Pretend a large enough user base decided they didn't care about not having any bluetooth ability. Along come some ROMs that don't include that function. They state such, and otherwise have bugs on a very individual user level basis, if at all.
To that user-base, those ROMs are stable. What about you? You lose your bluetooth headset and can't do without that. Being as bluetooth is a functional piece of equipment within the device, any ROM without it is technically unstable. Can we agree with this?
Stability can also be defined, at least in part, by a developers ability and attention to resolve issues "Immediately, if not sooner". This becomes a determination of stability based on the developers ability and timeliness in resolving issues.
Otherwise stable software can become corrupted through interaction with other code that doesn't agree with it. There are a lot of apps out there, and Android is an environment allowing for much more freedom then the app store.
Due to the increase of involvement of chaos theory throughout the Android environment, I'd put forth that the stability of any software is in part tied to the developers attention to unforeseen interactions due to the scope of Android at large.
Here again, is another example - by this definition:
"Bulletproof was more stable when I was actively working on it - before I had to take a leave of absence." During that leave time, the ROM is less stable then it was before, because any new problems aren't attended to.
But we can say that not only the level of attention, but the quality of that attention is important too.
A consistent voluntary lack of desire in chasing down new bugs and fixing them could be seen as the equivalent of that crappy customer service call. Maybe you just exceeded the developers interest in the project, and to that developer it was stable for it's intentions at the time, and has moved on.
From one perspective, the project was completely stable. From another, quite the opposite.
There again, you have developers moving on to other phones, or using projects as stepping stones to other goals. We would need to agree to be able to define something as "stable to a point" if the project was brought so far forwards before the developer left it behind for others to build on.
Sometimes while building bulletproof I threw out stability and claims/remarks thereof in order to challenge the community to define what it was to me.
In the end, stability to me correlates to the endless anal attention to detail - on all fronts. To write clean code, to properly wipe and prepare the device, and the burden of utilizing a stable product rests with both the producer and the user - even if the only user is the producer.
Given the many facets of 'Stability' in trying to define it - how accurately can we do so?
I look forward to the postings on this thought experiment.
How big is big?
I'd bet that the word "stable" means something slightly different to nearly everyone. As an active user that tinkers with their installation a lot "stable" means no more than a 1 problem that requires a reset every week or two. Different usage would mean different definitions. Another user on my account that primarily uses his smart phone for calls won't tolerate more than 1 problem a month and for him, even that is frustrating. For emergency personnel any problem that prevents phone usage would be way too many.
The word also has different meanings for different products. I wouldn't consider a router that has more than 1 or 2 problems a year stable. Commercial communications equipment I've worked with was deployed in environments where it was expected to run at least 2 years without a problem. It was so well designed that occasionally it would run 5 or more years and the end users would forget where it was located and sometimes even that it existed at all.
I guess language just sucks for this type of thing.
All I want is a sense-less ROM that doesn't have random reboots and I'll stick with this phone for another year. As it is now I can't freaking stand it. That's with a totally fresh wipe and install of Virtuous Inquisition. I just don't buy into the idea that these phones aren't meant to download all the apps and games we can fit off the play store (not that I do... I HAVE in the past but I've barely reinstalled anything since my most recent wipe). The idea that installing things is going to lead to issues that aren't the ROMs fault is crazy. The stock ROM doesn't have these issues with my apps being installed. I only rooted to get rid of that dumb genius button (and getting rid of sense was the icing on the cake although not totally necessary).
"Stable" should refer to a ROM that works completely fine except for 2-4 functions that are not essential to smartphone daily function.
"Stable" unfortunately refers to a ROM that boots around here.
Sent from my HTC MyTouch 4G Slide using xda premium
polarbearmc said:
All I want is a sense-less ROM that doesn't have random reboots and I'll stick with this phone for another year. As it is now I can't freaking stand it. That's with a totally fresh wipe and install of Virtuous Inquisition. I just don't buy into the idea that these phones aren't meant to download all the apps and games we can fit off the play store (not that I do... I HAVE in the past but I've barely reinstalled anything since my most recent wipe). The idea that installing things is going to lead to issues that aren't the ROMs fault is crazy. The stock ROM doesn't have these issues with my apps being installed. I only rooted to get rid of that dumb genius button (and getting rid of sense was the icing on the cake although not totally necessary).
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I can't say I've seen any problems like you are describing. I only used Vinq for a very short time, before I realized that wifi calling didn't work on it. CM9 a5 does not have any random reboots and has more features than Vinq working. That being said, I haven't heard of anyone facng random reboots using Vinq. if I had to guess, I would say it's related to the way Vinq tries to patch some elements of Sense and some elements of AOSP together, and they just don't get along. If it were me, I would move to cm9. I don't like sense's remnants tainting up my device, especially if they're going to lead to problems. the ONLY exception to this is the stock DoubleShot camera I would enjoy having that, but not if it meant that I had to run sense libs and it started causing conflicts with other parts of my AOSP.
[Q] Research Survey: App Developers and App Company Managers needed to share opinion
Hi,
Currently, i am conducting my Master thesis research at the University of Technology Eindhoven about quality analysis services of mobile apps. According to literature it appears that the quality of apps is often based on user experience and functionality of apps. Only very basic and few research has been done about technical quality of apps and it is mainly unclear how app developers and app owners (i.e. managers of app companies or individual developer of their own app) think about the technical quality.
Therefore, i am looking for app developers and app owners to help me by taking a 5 - 10 minute survey. For every completed survey I will donate a euro to a charity of your own choice.
The survey is anonymous and only used for academic purposes. All data will be removed after finalizing the project.
The survey is available at survey.sogosurvey. com/k/RQsUYPUSsQsPsPsP (please remove space)
I appreciate your help in this and hope that you take the survey as all app developers and owners opinions count.
Thank you.
Mike Loeffen
Graduating student at University of Technology Eindhoven
P.S. unfortunately, I noticed too late that the survey tool does not provide an optimal format for smartphones, so I recommend to use a computer or tablet.
I hope this will not be a reason to decide not taking the survey.
Hmmm,...
I would have selected "Keep the Euro" but there was no such option, so MSF...
Then I saw this:
6) Price: How much you are willing to pay per month in dollars. The price can be:
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and the next few pages had money questions.
So I felt I was filling out a marketing survey, and I aborted and posted this.
Please feel free to explain.
mikereidis said:
Hmmm,...
I would have selected "Keep the Euro" but there was no such option, so MSF...
Then I saw this:
and the next few pages had money questions.
So I felt I was filling out a marketing survey, and I aborted and posted this.
Please feel free to explain.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks for you comment.
To answer your first comment, I chose to make that particular question about charities not mandatory. So, if you did not want to let me donate, you could keep that question open. But I wanted to do something in return for every participation, and as a student I don't have many resources. Therefore, the decision to donate something.
You have a good point with your second comment. As I explained on the first page is that I study Innovation Management at a Technical University. This study combines the technical aspect, like IT business, with economy aspects, like marketing, sales, and management. The goal of my research for my Master thesis is to analyze if technical quality (i.e. the quality of the source code) of apps is just as important as the technical quality of large software systems and to analyze what opinions app developers and app owners have regarding the technical quality.
In my research I use the so-called conjoint analysis, which is indeed an analysis method often used in marketing scenarios, but additionally it is also a very good method to analyze different perspections of a product or service which is what I try to do in my research. Price is often excluded because it could influence the perception of respondents (and appears so now). But I chose to include it, because I assume that a technical quality analysis could always be useful in different ways (help developers in a good direction or decrease costs. This is already proved for computer and enterprise software, but it has a gap in literature in the case of mobile app software). Therefore, I try to analyze how important and how interesting app developers and owners find the technical quality by including different price levels. If someone chooses a higher price for better services, I assume that a technical quality analysis might indeed provide value from the perception of developers and owners.
Overall, it is an academic research about consumer behavior and perceptions about a relative new service (therefore the link to Innovation Management) because very few research is done about software quality of apps from a developers or owners perspective. That's why marketing aspects are included too. In the end, academic researches will always be public accessible, and I try to close some of the gap of the technical quality services about the software of apps. I cannot close the whole gap because due to the fact I am no software developer I can not include all aspects unfortunately, so in this case mainly 'human technology interaction' aspects).
I hope this will make myself and my survey more clear. If you have still some questions, feel free to ask them.
Thank you for your comment and I appreciate it if you are still willing to participate
mtclo said:
Overall, it is an academic research about consumer behavior and perceptions about a relative new service (therefore the link to Innovation Management) because very few research is done about software quality of apps from a developers or owners perspective.
...
I am no software developer
...
Click to expand...
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If you want to learn what software development is REALLY like, this is THE BEST site I have ever seen: http://www.joelonsoftware.com/
IMO there are no effective methods of objectively evaluating software quality and I think this is a widely held opinion by those with SW dev experience*. Many attempts have been made, with bug tracking systems for example, and pretty much all have failed to objectively evaluate quality. Very good QA people can find many more bugs than average QA people. QA team size matters. Defining a single bug precisely is difficult.
(*At least in the common real world. Things may be somewhat different in the military and super-super reliable part of the industry that uses at least 10 times more developers for projects than the apps and other common development areas.)
Maybe the closest we could get to measuring quality would be MTBF, but even in other engineering areas, this is pretty difficult to accurately calculate, and it's value is questionable. And software is SO different than other areas. Eg. If hackers (who can make serious money finding a zero day bug) or others never find a specific bug that exists, nobody will ever know about it. OTOH, if a hard disk or bridge fails, somebody will likely know about it.
I've been doing SW dev professionally for 25 years, and personal/hobbyist for 15 years before that, dating back to becoming a teen in the mid 1970's when microprocessors were first arriving.
My education was in electronics however, and I'm a practical "get it done" dev who has never pondered sort algorithms academically.
I LOVE coming up with wonderful software designs that are elegant, minimizes bugs and easy to extend and accommodate future features. In my case, I created an Android FM App named Spirit2 that I took care in designing to have good characteristics.
OTOH, my Spirit1 FM app was never designed, it was quickly thrown together with hack after hack added for years. The code is a mess and it's now almost impossible to add a new feature without breaking existing functionality. Spirit1 served a good purpose, getting an app out quickly, but I had to solve the goal of getting a better quality app out by designing a new one: Spirit2.
IMO, a surprising amount of real code out there in the world today was, at least initially (with reverb for decades), quickly hacked together, not really designed well, or otherwise "very suboptimal". This includes large enterprise systems, monstrosities like the ObamaCare system, and the systems running our banks.
And most consumer apps are so full of bugs it's not funny. Big deal, the app crashes and needs to be restarted. Most people would never know if it's the fault of the app, the hardware or the operating system.
I'd like to think that my opinions above could be more important than just filling out a survey, especially if it makes you reconsider your ideas going into this.
Again, I'll HIGHLY recommend reading this site for an hour or 2, to you or anyone involved or interested in the REAL world of software development: http://www.joelonsoftware.com/
I have no connection with Joel, and haven't been on his site in many months at least. But I have spend at LEAST dozens of hours gleaning new insights and even entertainment there over the last 10+ years. Most of the time I end up back on his site when someone posts a link from slashdot or similar tech discussion sites.
ETA: Oh, and Joel's company does bug tracking software, so I'm sure he has well formed opinions on software quality: http://www.fogcreek.com/ Tracking (and fixing) bugs is still useful of course, even if there are no good objective quality measurements. But I'll be happy to step aside and reconsider if his opinions on that differ from mine,
mikereidis said:
If you want to learn what software development is REALLY like, this is THE BEST site I have ever seen:
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
mikereidis said:
IMO there are no effective methods of objectively evaluating software quality and I think this is a widely held opinion by those with SW dev experience*. Many attempts have been made, with bug tracking systems for example, and pretty much all have failed to objectively evaluate quality. Very good QA people can find many more bugs than average QA people. QA team size matters. Defining a single bug precisely is difficult.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
mikereidis said:
OTOH, my Spirit1 FM app was never designed, it was quickly thrown together with hack after hack added for years. The code is a mess and it's now almost impossible to add a new feature without breaking existing functionality. Spirit1 served a good purpose, getting an app out quickly, but I had to solve the goal of getting a better quality app out by designing a new one: Spirit2.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
mikereidis said:
And most consumer apps are so full of bugs it's not funny. Big deal, the app crashes and needs to be restarted. Most people would never know if it's the fault of the app, the hardware or the operating system.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thank your for your tip. I could definitely use it for my literature review. Though, as I mentioned before, I am not capable to cover all software development aspects because I had to narrow the scope according to the guidelines of the Master thesis and according to my knowledge field (I hope this is the right description).
Furthermore, I think I had to define my definition of technical quality of software better. I am aware of the fact that the word 'quality' has a lot of meanings and definitions. In my thesis I have defined technical quality as the maintainability of the source code of software. I narrowed my scope in the research to tools that inspect code quality by reporting on duplicated codes, code complexity, code design, et cetera. Think about tools as SonarQube or VeraCode. However, these tools focus mainly on large enterprise software systems or general computer software. Therefore, my research is focused on code quality of app software for Android, iOS or Windows for mobile devices.
And finally to make my intentions of my research fully clear, is that I won't develop such a tool but I want to analyze if such tools for mobile apps would have any potential on the market and would some features like a quality label or the level of reporting detail have any influence. You already acknowledge that consumers would not be aware what causes bugs or other problems. In some cases, these problems might be caused by faults in the source code. Consumers would have no influence in that case, but app developers do. Code analyses might improve the source code or decrease costs by decreasing development time. Therefore, my target group are app developers or app owners (like managers of companies that develop apps) and I want to analyze if these people would be interested in such tools if it could, for example, improve the maintainability of an app and/or decreasing costs. Eventually, as my research results will become public and it appears that such tools might provide value to app developers and/or app owners, than it can be a motivation to develop such tools. Each individual will be free in deciding what to do with my results.
Hope it is clear now
I appreciate your additional thinking and it could indeed provide value and ideas for my research.
Hi everyone,
Hereby a reminder of the survey about the demand for mobile app quality analysis services. I hope you are willing to spend only 5 minutes of your time to help me with this research to graduate.
I have received feedback that the original survey was too vague and complicated. Therefore, I have improved the survey to make it more easy to fill in.
To access the improved version, please use the following link: survey.sogosurvey.com/k/SsUYPUSsWsPsPsP
I would appreciate it very much, if you are willing to complete this survey.
Thank you.