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Complaining to the right People at T-mobile

Hi Everyone,
Ive been on a bit of a mission with T-mobile and have been in touch with the directors office, they are under the impression that nothing has been locked down on the phone in rc7/rc30 that would limit the use of the phone from a development standpoint.
Ive given them a few examples of things that cant be done but they refuse to do anything (other than cancel my contact if i want) as im only one person who is complaining.
I know everyone runnning rc30v1.2 and rc8v.12 is ok atm, but could EVERONE please send a little email of complaint. Just explaining that you are unhappy that they have locked down the phone and denied us root.
cl&[email protected]
They say that if they get more complaints then something will be done
ITS WORTH A SHOT ISNT IT?
PS... If anyone wants to cancel their contract in the uk because of the lack of access, call 01707 315000 and ask to talk to Leah within the Directors team about your G1 problem. I explained that i couldnt get my apps working because i couldnt edit/add files to system directories.
They should offer to cancel it, it worked for me

Yeah, it's worth a shot, although from past experience with T-Mobile this may be akin to trying to extract blood from a stone

I tried doing the same thing after I got my G1 (before anyone figured out the hole in RC29). I found the people over at T-Mobile USA are just as clueless. As soon as you mention the words Android or G1, they instantly transfer you to a different support queue. I tried to explain what root access was and they didn't have a clue what I was talking about.

I found that here in the UK also, these people work in the directors team and so far have not fobbed me off.
They dont claim to be technical but are at least talking to the T-mobile developers about this. They have raised my concerns with the UK G1 manager, i think my case just needs a little more oomph from others complaining.

I've already called HTC, G1 support, and the PDA/Smartphone support ppl. None of them were willing to even try to understand the issue.

T-mobile have just called me and have advised that we should expect a statement about the issue by the end of the week. The issue is now with board members apparently
Maybee they are actuclly starting to understand??

You should have them email. At least that way it leaves a paper trail.

SGTDavePwnage said:
T-mobile have just called me and have advised that we should expect a statement about the issue by the end of the week. The issue is now with board members apparently
Maybee they are actuclly starting to understand??
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's very interesting that T-Mobile is even considering the idea of allowing root access, to the point where it would be an executive decision by the board members. Do you have any other information on this aside from your first post? Can anyone else confirm this?

i phoned tmobile uk today and asked why i couldnt get root on my tc5-rc8.
and i had a long talk with the guy and he said he had a email about this issue
and went throught a few things with me on my phone. and then he said he would phone me back tomorrow with someone that new more about the g1 then the tec support staff. and he would be able to give me more answers about it.
qtronix

Cool
Sounds like my insessant *****ing at T-mobile support might have gotten us somewhere?
At least techies are not fobbing people off at the moment.
Could you please concider sending an email to the address i posted, just so they are aware that others are miffed.
******This is a copy of the email i sent to the directors team******
Leah
Many thanks for your call....
As t-mobile dont seem to see/understand the problem I have given the contact details of the director team to a group of developers so that you can hopefully get a few more calls about this. Please believe me that I am not the only person who has these concerns, but when people call tech support about this they are simply fobbed off by people who are not trained/do not understand the issue.
I would like to point out an error with t-mobiles response that they have in no way locked down the phone so that it is detremental for putting developed software onto the phone.
Please see a few examples of how the new RC8 Software limits Developers :-
1. Say I wanted my screen to automatically rotate without wanting to open the keyboard, this is simply a matter of editing offset: 1104724 within /system/framework/framework.odex to 0x0F001246.
I could do this on the old software but not on the new RC8
2. Say i wanted to update the web browser to do the same, this would mean editing the origional browser source code released by Google and putting it on my phone. Again, this was possible with root access on RC7 but has now been made impossible on the new RC8.
3. Say i wanted to make a tethering application that allows me to use my G1 as a modem to my PC (i know this would cost me money on my contract for data transfer) but I might want to do it so that i can connect to my workplace vpn to fix something. This was Doable on RC7, but now is not.
4. The G1 currently has no way of clearing cache for the marketplace, this again was doable on RC7 but not on RC8
5. The G1 has a limited ammount of space to install applications. It would be a good idea if we could install applications to our SD memory Cards, but again we cant do this because of the new software.
The above examples are just some simple things developers are working on that would benefit the phone, but we cant develop them and put them on the phone.
Basically anything that means editing a system file / writing a file to a system directory is now impossible.
Please understand that developers are not trying to take over the world or ruin the phone. We are simply trying to make the phone do what we want / improve the features.
This is how OpenSource works. Everyone has access to the Source code so that it can if neccecary be customised/edited to improve things for everyone.
The new software has made it impossible for programs that interact with the main system files or require extra files to be put in a system folder, to work.
Developers understand why the phone RC7 software was unsafe in the way it ran commands, we understand why you fixed the command running problem, but instead of fixing the issue properly you have just locked down root access?? Why??
If the new software in no way limits what developers can do, then why when you search on the net are so many people “Jailbreaking” their phones to get the access they require.
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20081105-android-liberation-t-mobile-g1-jailbroken.html
Can i draw your attention to
"In contrast, the G1 has been developed by the Open Handset Alliance project. It's extremely unlikely that this alliance, which is committed to an open platform, will engage in the same kinds of protective shenanigans that Apple has resorted to. The Android philosophy states that "anyone can contribute to Android and influence its direction. That means that anyone can download, build, and run the code needed to create a complete mobile device."
So why jailbreak an already-open device? One big jailbreak advantage is that it allows you to bypass the G1's internal storage. Until now, you were limited by the G1's built-in memory for installing and running programs. With the jailbreak, you can install applications onto a local SD card and run them from the card. Running low on memory? Just swap cards in and out.
Jailbreaking also allows you to use low-level tools that run in the background. Want your G1 to call home and report your location every 20 minutes? A simple Unix process, called a daemon, can handle that for you. You can set daemons up to remind you of appointments, to scan for nearby wireless devices and more. The world of handheld computing doesn't begin or end with graphic interfaces. There's an enormously rich world of possibilities available through command line processes.
Most importantly, jailbreaking gives you complete control of your system from the bottom up. It lets you stop thinking of your phone as a handheld gadget and start using it as a fully-capable Unix platform. "
Please could you explain how T-mobile are of the opinion that they have not limited developers with the above examples in mind.
The G1 is being sold as a Developer friendly OpenSource Phone. How can you claim this is developer friendly when the software severely limits what developers can do?
Are T-mobile saying that the phone was never supposed to allow users this access and that the RC7 root access was a mistake?
Eagerly Awaiting your response..
******

Well written, although I would have DEFINITELY left out the part about tethering the phone.

vr24 said:
Well written, although I would have DEFINITELY left out the part about tethering the phone.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I did think about that, but then i reconcidered as we already have tetherbot which works without root.
Suppose we will just have to see if anything comes of it

SGTDavePwnage said:
I did think about that, but then i reconcidered as we already have tetherbot which works without root.
Suppose we will just have to see if anything comes of it
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
you can always call t-mobile and say that after you updated the phone it is now:
constantly feezing, apps are running slow, and at times you can not connect to internet.
also tell them that you tried a factory reset and it did not help (make up a story that you have friend that has a lot of app and his phone runs faster than you phone with no apps installed)
if you have insurance they will send you one for free, you just have to return your old phone,
i believe they are still sending out rc29 for replacements as of now.
friend and cousin tried it and it worked.
might be worth a shot

Just got this in my inbox:
"Thank you for letting us know of your concerns with the 'open source' and 'root access' on your G1 mobile phone. We really do appreciate your comments about this.
We're aware that there are concerns in relation to this and our leadership teams in the UK and the USA are currently reviewing your comments and our position. We plan to provide you and other customers with similar concerns, with a response early next week, which should answer your concerns. I'll be in touch with you then.
Your comments are extremely valuable to us Mr * and I'm grateful for your patience while we look into this. I'd like to thank you personally for your co-operation.
In the mean time I hope you enjoy your weekend.
Kind regards
Leah Young
Directors' Office Co-ordinator
T-Mobile (UK)"
Of course, their answer could be anything from "f*ck off" to "yes, we'd love to embrace the openness of android with both arms, here everyone, have root!" so we'll all have to keep our fingers crossed 'til monday.

Well I just hope they release an update with options that allow us to turn off all background services (myfaves) and unwanted datatraffic (or actuall prevent overriding options when roaming).

How did that dead horse like the beating?

Perhaps a dead horse. Could it be that Tmo has now figured out that with root access, it won't take long for people like the coders at XDA to fully jailbreak the device to the point that voIP will be easy for any user to obtain? Are they just trying to protect their ability to profit off of voice traffic?

rynosaur said:
Perhaps a dead horse. Could it be that Tmo has now figured out that with root access, it won't take long for people like the coders at XDA to fully jailbreak the device to the point that voIP will be easy for any user to obtain? Are they just trying to protect their ability to profit off of voice traffic?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hummm... I think ALL wireless providers are threatened by VOIP but the main reason root access was blocked was due to bad press mainly by tons of articles stating that there is a huge security risk and a flaw was found with Android which could let remote users attack someone's device...blah blah blah and so forth. That pretty much scared T-Mobile and Google which hated to have bad press so close to the G1 just being released and were forced to correct this issue. The only problem with that protection came with closing alot of freedom for the G1 and may happen to alot of more Android-based devices in the future, I'm afraid... Maybe Google will realize that there are other ways to protect mobile hijacking (which is extremely rare anyways) by creating some type of built-in firewall software instead?

rynosaur said:
Perhaps a dead horse. Could it be that Tmo has now figured out that with root access, it won't take long for people like the coders at XDA to fully jailbreak the device to the point that voIP will be easy for any user to obtain? Are they just trying to protect their ability to profit off of voice traffic?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Root is not necessary to build a voip app. Fact is, G1 launched with a skype-compatible voip app called iSkoot. Look it up.

SGTDavePwnage said:
Cool
Sounds like my insessant *****ing at T-mobile support might have gotten us somewhere?
At least techies are not fobbing people off at the moment.
Could you please concider sending an email to the address i posted, just so they are aware that others are miffed.
******This is a copy of the email i sent to the directors team******
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i wont quote the entire email because its big. but you sir are very well spoken, great email!

Permission protected data spoofing on CM7

http://review.cyanogenmod.com/#change,5677
This is an interesting patch to the CM7 repository frameworks base. If you scroll down and expand the comments you can follow the guys arguments on justifying such feature. Basically from what I understand this would allow you to spoof personal data to apps which may or may not request it. From contacts to SD card contents as well as phone IMEI (International Mobile Equipment Identity) number.
It's not a committed change but I wanted to see what the community thinks of having such feature. Personally I see all the reasons why this would open up a can of warms. What do you think?

I think in some other implementation this could be really helpful to the paranoid (like myself). However, I also think that those that are against it have VERY valid points. The community needs MORE widespread acceptance, not less, and something like this could cause major problems with Google, Carriers, Developers....
Sent from a bird cage, with a swing!

Correct me if I am wrong, but the intention is to spoof necessary data that an app might request that it doesn't actually need and to help prevent app force closes that straight up permission blocking causes. Like pandora requiring to read contact data.
Setting aside the other ramifications for a second... This is actually a good idea. It gives us power to not have to accept (for example) Pandora being greedy bastards.
Now the other ramifications are indeed severe. But for example, Swype. Why the hell can't I just buy it on the market?
I think arguing over it is a moot point. This cat is already out of the bag. We can't stuff it back in. This functionality is coming. Maybe not on Cyanogen, but it will be here for the masses soon. The greedy bastards that are trying to milk the system had just better deal with it.

Wow this thread could not have popped up at a worse time , what with all the NexusSense 0.3 users having trouble with their IMEI's.
But having read through all the comments on the change, i see why the CM team do not want to implement it, obviously this kind of change would piss off devs and carriers and of course google.
Yes it is a good idea for us users, but for CM's image and survivability , id say not having it is a sacrifice we need to make

First of all:
Wrong section.
Second: They won't add it anyway.
Some developers cried about it and everything.

dario3040 said:
First of all:
Wrong section.
Second: They won't add it anyway.
Some developers cried about it and everything.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I figured this is about a development of Android ROM and posted in "Android Development" section. Forgive me if there was a better place to post it in.
This is also not marked as abandoned (as of this post) and still up for debate in the open section of Cyanogenmod Gerrit section.

For devices without an IMEI because they don't have a cellular radio, such as the Nook Color, some amount of this is valid and regarded as highly valuable. While I don't condone being able to haphazardly change or spoof your IMEI, I do believe that for devices that don't have an IMEI that some measure should be taken to create a device specific IMEI that will persist between different ROMs and ROM installations. Unfortunately with no IMEI support for devices like the Nook Color, there is no persistent ID that can be used. As developers continue to use the IMEI as a "device stable" ID, we need to come up with a way to support devices that don't have such an ID, and perhaps generate a non-colliding IMEI from a has of their login information, or some other identifying metric that will persist between different installations. The TAC could be created to identify the device type, and then the serial number could be generated based upon some information provided by the user.
In short, outright spoofing is probably a bad idea, but something needs to be done for devices that don't supply these sorts of IDs.

[Q] security for android - beginner friendly how to?

hi all!
please note: i am nothing near a professional user or even coder! i rooted my phone and i install custom roms on it, and thats about it. in addition to that i am concerned about my privacy. for me it started with the LBE Privacy Guard from the play store, it was quite nice until it stopped working, and made my phone stuck in a boot loop...
i have read and searched a lot of stuff before i decided to write this. but i havent found an easy and understandable how to. maybe that is because there no easy way to this. please go easy on me if there is already a thread for this...
i just installed openpdroid on my samsung galaxy s+ (i9001) and that is just because user bululu has made a patch for the rom i am using (cm10.1 from user davidteri) - thanks to both of them! i installed the patch with cwm (clockworkmod) and afterwards i was wondering there is no privacy setting in my menu or anything that would let me set up permissions. but from all the stuff i was reading before i figured i will need some kind of gui (not sure this is the right word - that goes for most of the stuff, but please correct me where u can, i will try and learn) so i installed 'pdroid manager' from the play store. that would finally let me set permissions for the apps! so far, so good. i am now using openpdroid...
should be all good at this point u might think, but this is where my questions begin ^^ f.ex:
is this the best solution atm? are there more solutions? what are the differences? what can u recommend?
furthermore i try to figure out how to encrypt email on android. most things i read point to k9 mail and using agp (or apg? is this the same?). i did some research on that topic an it seems to be the 'android privacy guard'. more questions here too...
it seems to be out of development, since the last changes are from 25.12.2010. is there a newer alternative for that or something i missed? or maybe it is still the thing to use or it is quite finished in its current state?!? but i dont wanna clog my device with old or unsupported software until i am 99% sure on what to do...
so basically i am asking if there is a nice and user friendly (with images) 'how to' for this kind of stuff i was just missing or is it just impossible (at the current state) to do such thing? if both answers are 'no' i'd like to start something like that, of course with your help that is...
because it seems the info i found is not coherent, its all bits and pieces one needs to bring together (in the right order and with compatible software). at least thats what it feels like for me as non-professional user and linux noob. i have no problem with puzzling stuff together but i also would like to help others who would like to do increase their security and get different opinions on whats the best way to do some things...
so if any of u got an opinion to any of the above please let me know! and help or links would be greatly appreciated! lets see if we can bring some things together and make our devices, our communication and our data more secure! and please note: this should not be device specific, my device and rom was just for information and for better understanding my starting point. this should be as broadly defined and open minded as possible. so everybody could partake and make use of it...
thanks for reading!
kind regards
bad1080

[Completed] [Q] General overview & terminology for noobs

What is rooting as opposed to flashing as opposed to unlocking the bootloader, what is the ROM vs recovery?
How do exposed and gravity box fit in?
When and why would you want to do these things and how do they relate to each other?
Why are they (and which ones are) required just to do a full backup of my device?
How should I back up if I want all my configuration tweaking and settings to migrate but not the apps data?
How should I back up if I want to restore to a similar model device as opposed to the exact same one? What if they are running different versions of Android?
How should I back up if I just want all my apps and their data on a completely different model device?
How can I sync settings, apps & data between multiple devices whenever on wifi, without requiring user intervention - automatically, constantly and in the background?
Thanks in advance. . .

Hi,
Most of your questions are covered in this Android Dictionary from XDA,
http://xda-university.com/as-a-user/android-dictionary
You can click the colored words for more info.
That is a general overview.
As far as more details go, I can only suggest searching xda, or Google (adding the word "xda" to your search words) for more on your questions.
Xda Assist is here to help navigate the site, not for support or discussions. Unfortunately you've asked a "tell me all" type question... And that's a little more than we go into here.
If you need help finding your device section, let me know your device make and model number and I'll point you towards it.... There you can read more or ask further questions.
But really, if you're completely new to this stuff.... Spend some time researching all this before doing anything. And things will start to make sense. ?
Good luck!

Custom/reliable rom/operating system

So I am going to post this here, because the development section is ferboten to people trying to offer useful suggestions. Geez, I hope this is the right section.
Let me set it up. ANDROID IS BASED ON THE LINUX KERNEL. Everything, and I mean everything after that fact becomes android and bloat. Given this as the basis of all things android, I have a simple set of guidelines that should be used to create a solid, reliable, bullet proof operating system for devices able to use the android operating system.
#1. Create the kernel boot section of the basic platform that supports the very basic hardware features, including touch screen, radios, power/charging/battery management, wifi, bluetooth, nearfield, audio, microphone, s-pen,etc. Basics only. Root access is standard and can be turnd on/off just like developwer functions. No special tricks or addon hoops to jump through.
#2 At this point STOP. Every single process or service to be run on the device from this point forward should be able to be individually selectable - or not. Yes, I understand that individual services or apps may have dependancies to other processes and that thouse need to be functional in order for a particular app to work. That is why, each additional service or app must list the dependencies and in the selection process, the installion will be required to verify you have the proper services installed and functioning, if not to list them and allow you to make the decision to proceed. Viola, we have NO MORE BLOAT WARE.
#3 Make selecting additional services/apps selection process a menu driven, tag selectable process. Make the unselection process smart to verify and identify the other apps dependant on the item you are killing/removing.
#4 Allow a built in snapshot option to capture the entire system as you have customized it for yourself and allow it to be backed up to external memory with the ability to bring it back, AT WILL. With no big hassles.
Those 4 items are a good start. By themselves alone, it would put all of us in the drivers seat of controlling and living with our devices.
I am aware that such a system is not for everyone. It does require some basic technical understanding of the process. But for the vast majority of users, I am certain, that an a la carte system is far superior to the bloated monstrosities being forced down our devices.
I would appreciate any refinements to my suggestions.

The silence is deafening. It has been days. Kind of says something, don't you think?

I am so very happy (not) that these boards a compartmentalized to the point where you can't get through.
Pretty much a waste of my valuable time, especially considering the fact that if my suggestions where applied, people would be clamoring for an installation with those features. I guess there is not much true "developer" in xdadevelopers anymore.
Funny guys, with the pay to remove ads spam here. Really? Why? For what.
I leave here disappointed. Not angry. Just sad.

I'm not a developer so I have nothing valuable to contribute to your suggestions in your original post but I can offer an observation regarding your perception of the level of contribution to your thread and that is the fact that is particular area of the forums probably isn't the ideal spot to have a discussion such as this. You figured that out already so sure you can call me Capt. Obvious if you wish but I'm just pointing out that yes the forums are compartmentalized (as you've stated) in such a way that development for each device is separated out. This development is centered around AOSP based ROMs or "stock" ROMs (using manufacturer released source) so if you're looking to have higher level discussions about what AOSP should look like then deep down at this device specific level probably isn't where you want to be. So there's that . . . then there's the fact that for this particular device you can basically hear a pin drop in the sub-forums as it is since nothing much is going on by way of development.
Where specifically such a discussion would see more input I'm not sure, perhaps the main general discussion section?

Thank you for your sobering reply. I get frustrated. Already had my post bounced out of "wrong" forum while trying to speak directly to "developers" (i wanted air quotes because the term does not accuratly describe its target) So I tried this. The note pro 12.0 is still the best hardware giving the ipad a run for its money. The problem its monkeyshines kiddie software running it, or not running, or barely running it. ANDROID, indian word for crappy wannabe software, developed by clueless kids.
Again, thanks for the gentle nudge. I appreciate someone willing to conduct a conversation

Are you looking for an Ubuntu or SUSE type of setup?
I think what you are looking for is similar to apt-get type of installs, I could be wrong of course. This might be helpful for many "users". I think one of the barriers is that there are slight differences between the models of tablets, and creating the logic to put in for the sub-dependencies might prove problematic. You might get more answers to this possibility by asking one of the developers directly and sharing with them. Not a developer myself.