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[Discussion] Quality of Camera's on Phones

It would be nice to hear some opinions on this following thoughts I've had, ever since I upgraded my phone last year from an iPhone 3G (2.5mp camera I think) to an Xperia Arc S, which at the time was the highest quality / size MP camera on a phone at 8MP, which is still a decent size for a phone camera today, as mid-ranged phones usually start at around 5-8MP and the super smart phones these days are running upward of 10MP, I think 13MP is the highest, at least on Android, that Nokia Symbian phone was like... 42MP? Or at least the fidelity / quality resembled that due to its massive lens housing, god knows what was in there, but if I remember rightly it was only 5MP images... Someone correct me.
Anyway, with my Arc S at 8MP, the images are fairly decent, I mean they're never going to be used for print, so it doesn't really need to be higher. However, as an art graduate, I spend time when I can taking photographs, and I have a 14MP Sony NEX 5, which as standard is already a better quality sensor than the tiny ones that make it into a phone.
My first point is it's still only 1MP higher than these smartphones, which makes me think; say I upgrade my phone in 1 year when 16MP is the highest, now we've gone over, for me I'm reluctant to go higher than my camera because I'd probably be swayed to using the phone more for photography, though the phones would probably have to be double the MP of a decent camera to really compare.
Secondly, Lenses, well the one on my Arc S is fairly standard, though probably more complex than some others as I think it has 7 layers of various shaped pieces of glass. But when it comes down to it, any photographer will tell you it's almost 100% the lens that really makes a photograph what it is, the phones are getting better quality, but the lenses probably aren't, the phones are constantly trying to get thinner which doesn't help matters, but phones have actually gotten fatter sue to bigger screens needing bigger battery, so I'm unsure on this part of the topic.
The lenses I use on my NEX are Canon FD mounts, a format from the early to mid 70's all the way up to about 1994, they are manual lenses because of their age and incompatibility with modern auto-focus, but the quality is superb, and I'm not just saying it, one of the lenses is a 1.4 50mm prime, and can do some great shots, though the camera isn't full frame so the lens works out at 75mm, but I also have a 28mm 2.2 (I think?) prime, which works out around 42mm and is really good.
Both lenses are dated between 1972 and 1982, and no current phone could replicate the fidelity, bokeh and colour, which is one of the reasons why proper cameras will always have the advantage. (The NEX doesn't have a mirror inside so can replicate the original setup of older cameras easily, meaning a huge number of adaptors allows tons of different lenses to become available)
However with the Nokia pureview phone (still don't remember its name... 850?...) It had a body capable of housing some very interesting tech, that hasn't really been used since, at least to my knowledge. Seeing some pictures online really showed you what this phone was capable of, I think the resolution of the images were in the ten thousands X whatever, and remained really sharp, for a phone at least. Maybe it's lack of success is due to it been on a non-leading OS at the time, I can imagine people would want a camera with maybe an Android phone? (Which apparently, Nokia are working on) so maybe it will see it's true colours shine on a larger base OS. If this tech is worth the larger body size of a phone, people are going to want it...
And lastly, Convenience. One of the main points of having a camera is to be able to capture moments WHENEVER, and having a decent camera on a phone has been a growing trend over the past few years, with the growth of social networks, YouTube and Instagram. And you're more likely to have a phone with you than a camera for a situation that's spontaneous.
So what are peoples thoughts? A few months back Jessops one of the leading camera sales company in the UK went into administration, with only a few stores been saved;
Will we see a heightening trend amongst phones been used instead of standalone cameras?
Will they (DSLR's etc) be phased out completely?
Are you an avid photographer with your phone, or do you use a standalone camera?
Am I wrong?
I'd like to hear some opinions, hopefuly some educated ones on the subject will give a sense on the spectrum of issues.
Another point to consider, Smart-Cameras, the new trend of cameras running Android, though I don't think any have interchangeable lenses.
Thanks for reading, also... You may need to change some 'if's to 'of's because my phone has a habit of changing my words.
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I use my phone for everyday rubbish shots (whatsapp and such) and storing information (bustimes, lists, important stuff i take a snapshot of.) .
It will NEVER replace my DSLR.
It simply lacks the functionalities of one. So long as I can't set aperture and change lenses, it's not a real camera. I need my telezoom and macro lenses.
You can't seriously expect a phone, even that 42mp one to be as high - quality as a dslr. Too many pixels crammed into way too small a sensor. As it has always been with phones.
Not to mention, phones lack the power of a dslr. Ever tried taking nightshots with a phone? They're bad. Very bad. Or high speed shots. Nuhuh, they cant. Or far-zoom?
Lets face it, cameras on phones are not meant for professionals. They're meant for people on facebook, twitter and instagram.
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ShadowLea said:
I use my phone for everyday rubbish shots (whatsapp and such) and storing information (bustimes, lists, important stuff i take a snapshot of.) .
It will NEVER replace my DSLR.
It simply lacks the functionalities of one. So long as I can't set aperture and change lenses, it's not a real camera. I need my telezoom and macro lenses.
You can't seriously expect a phone, even that 42mp one to be as high - quality as a dslr. Too many pixels crammed into way too small a sensor. As it has always been with phones.
Not to mention, phones lack the power of a dslr. Ever tried taking nightshots with a phone? They're bad. Very bad. Or high speed shots. Nuhuh, they cant. Or far-zoom?
Lets face it, cameras on phones are not meant for professionals. They're meant for people on facebook, twitter and instagram.
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Man how can you compare a DSLR with a smartphone camera??, a DSLR is a camera with an awesome quality and the smartphone camera is only a phone with a decent camera and not for pro- photographers.. i would always choose a DLSR over a smartphone camera. And by the way i agree with ShadowLea that you can't cram 42mp in a small lens!!! it is outrageous!

Well, it's to do with trends, if you agree or not is a different matter, but lots of pro photographers and teachers will tell you if you ask, about how important this new revolution is, the quality you can get is pretty good, even compared to digital cameras less than 10 years ago.
If it can take photographs then it's a valid form, there are pro photographers then spend lots of their time using phones for photography, 5MP and decent light is enough, some of these phones are better quality than the point and shoot cameras of recent past.
Instagram, though trendy is a very valid post processing tool, just because the majority of people use it recreationaly it doesn't diminish its power, and usage.
People use Polaroid cameras all the time, and they're quite limited, and the quality can vary greatly. You can't change the lens, and you can't really adjust any settings.
Polaroid is probably most comparable to the quality of the mid range smartphones.
As for the Nokia 41MP camera phone, if you actually look at the images you can get a good sense of the quality. The short article can be found here:
http://www.extremetech.com/electron...review-camera-finally-coming-to-windows-phone
You can also easily find examples by doing an image search on Nokia Pureview.
The convenience of a very good quality camera phone can allow for great photos, which is why it's really taking off as a trend.
Denying it is the same arguments as saying Digital is better than Film, though there are still counter arguments, benefits and people still use film cameras and Polaroid.
There's a statistic recently that goes something like; there have been more photographs taken in 2012 than all previous years since photography's invention combined.
I'm not sure if that's word for word correct, but I think it was on a Vsauce YouTube video not long back.
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I think you need to understand that Professional stands for "getting paid for your work" or "being an accomplished/awarded photographer" and not "I can hold a camera!".
Yes, there have been more photo's taken in the last year than since the invention of the photograph. I do hope you are also aware that this includes every halfbrained moron on Instagram and Facebook posting their friday-night drunk shots.
No selfrespecting real photographer uses a phone's camera for his or her work. The only ones that do are either A, doing an experiment, or B, people on the internet fooling themselves into thinking they're photographers.
PHONE CAMERAS DO NOT HAVE APERATURE SETTINGS. And that's where it all ends. There isn't a single pro or semi-pro who uses a fixed aperature camera.
42MP doesn't make a bloody difference if the sensor is meant for 2MP. The photo's may look fine on the internet, but newsflash: Your monitor is 72DPI, not 300. And a 6000x6000 pixel image is always going to look amazing when downsized to 1920x1080 or lower. (which is what every website does.)
As for trends, they're for the common cattle, not semi/professionals. People with knowledge and experience pay attention to specs, not to hypes.
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ShadowLea said:
I think you need to understand that Professional stands for "getting paid for your work" or "being an accomplished/awarded photographer" and not "I can hold a camera!".
Yes, there have been more photo's taken in the last year than since the invention of the photograph. I do hope you are also aware that this includes every halfbrained moron on Instagram and Facebook posting their friday-night drunk shots.
No selfrespecting real photographer uses a phone's camera for his or her work. The only ones that do are either A, doing an experiment, or B, people on the internet fooling themselves into thinking they're photographers.
PHONE CAMERAS DO NOT HAVE APERATURE SETTINGS. And that's where it all ends. There isn't a single pro or semi-pro who uses a fixed aperature camera.
42MP doesn't make a bloody difference if the sensor is meant for 2MP. The photo's may look fine on the internet, but newsflash: Your monitor is 72DPI, not 300. And a 6000x6000 pixel image is always going to look amazing when downsized to 1920x1080 or lower. (which is what every website does.)
As for trends, they're for the common cattle, not semi/professionals. People with knowledge and experience pay attention to specs, not to hypes.
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I think you're missing my point, I meant professional photographers that use iPhones for photography for non print, recreation, street photography etc.
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For those interested in hearing a pro talk about it, I present, Chase Jarvis.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buDa-m65RyA&feature=youtube_gdata_player
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Camera photo quality

I've just bought the GEM-702L and I'm a bit disappointed with the main camera quality, even in very good lighting. Photos of things reasonably near are OK, but general scenic shots aren't very sharp at all particularly near the edges, regardless of whether I set it to 13 MP or 6 MP. The pictures look like they're not quite properly in focus. For comparison, the same photos on the Galaxy Note 4 are much sharper, even at the same number of pixels.
What do others think of the main camera quality? Any tips for getting better results? I'd be grateful if you could post some photos you've taken so I can see if they're similar to mine in quality.
I've linked two of my own photos for comparison, both at 6 megapixels, one from the X2, and one from the Note 4.
X2: https://app.box.com/s/8jdqn7gci9sn8nvl78apjzwi90en6qrs
Note 4: https://app.box.com/s/jl7sazpavt637em04vgbww3sudkaj67l

Auto focus is the problem
No replies - maybe this is a bit of a sore point with fellow X2 owners?
Anyway after more experimentation, I've discovered that the problem seems to be with the camera auto focus - it tries to focus too close. Tapping on a different part of the picture doesn't seem to help. However, if I assign focus to the volume keys and manually focus at infinity, scenic shots come out much better. That's not ideal, but it's a simple and easy workaround and so I'm a lot happier. Unfortunately I can't change my poll vote, but if I could I'd put it up one grade from poor to good.

Camera has been very good for me. Photos are crisp and clear

The camera isn't bad in broad daylight but it's not nearly as good as the camera on my Nexus 6.

In good light today and using manual focus I took a number of photos using manual focus and I was happy with the results, unlike the ones I took with autofocus. I've got the 702L, although I wouldn't have thought the camera software and results on the 703L would be any different. I tried using Open Camera, but that didn't help and wasn't able to control the focus.
Does anyone want to share any of their photos taken with the X2?

Moandal said:
In good light today and using manual focus I took a number of photos using manual focus and I was happy with the results, unlike the ones I took with autofocus. I've got the 702L, although I wouldn't have thought the camera software and results on the 703L would be any different. I tried using Open Camera, but that didn't help and wasn't able to control the focus.
Does anyone want to share any of their photos taken with the X2?
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Here's one I took on my X2 in NY on my way to a camping trip in NJ. The second one is a photo I took a minute later with my Nexus 6. The next two are two I just took in low light conditions in my office. The first one is from the X2, the second from the Nexus 6. The same for the third set of photos.

Moandal said:
However, if I assign focus to the volume keys and manually focus at infinity, scenic shots come out much better. That's not ideal, but it's a simple and easy workaround and so I'm a lot happier. Unfortunately I can't change my poll vote, but if I could I'd put it up one grade from poor to good.
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May I know how you did that? Sounds :good:

Go into the camera settings and look for the "Volume Button Function" option.

Camera Issues
So I know this is an old thread, but I love my phone but the camera just looks like crap. seems like there are bubbles on the lens itself. Anyone else have this issue?

t69broken said:
So I know this is an old thread, but I love my phone but the camera just looks like crap. seems like there are bubbles on the lens itself. Anyone else have this issue?
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I've never seen that. My camera in both my X2's are not bad. Here's a few I took with my 702L yesterday while looking at wedding venues. It looks like you have some kind of condensation or mold in the camera lens.

ajsmsg78 said:
I've never seen that. My camera in both my X2's are not bad. Here's a few I took with my 702L yesterday while looking at wedding venues. It looks like you have some kind of condensation or mold in the camera lens.
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Mold might be a bit extreme, but it looks like a bad tint job on my lens, it is the only reason I've thought of getting a different phone.

t69broken said:
Mold might be a bit extreme, but it looks like a bad tint job on my lens, it is the only reason I've thought of getting a different phone.
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IMHO it should be the first reason to ask retailer for replacing your phone...

Camera Discussion/Image Samples (Post Your Pictures!)

With phones starting to ship now I figured I'd get the ball rolling with a camera discussion / Image sample thread. I'll be sure to update this post once I have the device and get some sample shots. With the not so great reviews of the camera, I think this is a great thread to discuss the camera of the Essential phone. I'm sure it's going to bring a lot of debate

I'm wondering what is the actual sensor being used for the camera. Is it one of the Sony Exmor sensors that most phones use these days? If so, which one? It seems odd to me that this had not been reported on the way it usually is with flagship phones claiming to have great cameras, like the Pixel and U11.

I feel like the 360 camera was a bad choice as a first accessory.
A super high quality normal snap-on sensor would have changed the way this phone was received.

Goronok said:
I feel like the 360 camera was a bad choice as a first accessory.
A super high quality normal snap-on sensor would have changed the way this phone was received.
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The camera issues are software related.
The processing may need tweaking with real world shooting. The app has issues. I think they will sort the camera out. For me it's not a big deal since I almost always have a camera with an APS-C sensor around. I only do phone cameras in an emergency.

tech_head said:
The camera issues are software related.
The processing may need tweaking with real world shooting. The app has issues. I think they will sort the camera out. For me it's not a big deal since I almost always have a camera with an APS-C sensor around. I only do phone cameras in an emergency.
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Essential is saying it's software related in PR statements. But the camera issues have been around for months and they haven't been able to fix it. Droid Life reported on it back in June: http://www.droid-life.com/2017/06/05/essential-phone-camera-sample/
I think it's likely that they are using small 1/3 sensors (in order to have no camera hump in a thin phone); they seem to been avoiding publishing any information about what the actual sensors are in the phone and their size. That would definitely explain the low light issues. No software update is going to fix that.
And there have been so many cell phones that have come out with camera issues and promises of software fixes that never materialize. At best minor improvements happen. So I would not hold my breath for Essential being able to make huge imporvements. If they could have, they would have before they started handing it out to reviewers. It's not like they couldn't go out and snap photos like the reviewers are doing and see the problems (and if they didn't do that, then that level of incompetence makes me believe even less that there will be a miracle fix).
So I think people should be prepared for this being what the camera is more or less going to be like, with maybe some minor improvements.

cb474 said:
I'm wondering what is the actual sensor being used for the camera. Is it one of the Sony Exmor sensors that most phones use these days? If so, which one? It seems odd to me that this had not been reported on the way it usually is with flagship phones claiming to have great cameras, like the Pixel and U11.
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Sony IMX258
360 camera is IMX378

Kay1000RR said:
Sony IMX258
360 camera is IMX378
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Thanks. Yeah, I saw that yesterday. As I predicted, the sensor, IMX258, is a 1/3 sensor (and two years old at that). Super disappointing. This definitely explains the bad low light performance (along with EIS instead of OIS). As I said, I really doubt software updates are going to do much to improve it. Samsung has been putting larger sensors (1/2.5) in their phones for four years now. I big part of why the Pixel and U11 have good cameras are because of the 1/2.3 sensors in them. There is just no excuse for a so called "flagship" phone these days have a 1/3 sensor in it.
It seems like Essential was just overly obssessed with their perfectly flat back idea (which I don't even think looks so great, it's almost too plain) and thought they could do "magic" by combining two 1/3 sensors, one in BW mode, and somehow produce better pictures from two lower grade sensors. 2X bad information does not equal good information. Yeah, maybe they'll get a little extra detail out of the extra monochrome sensor. But it's not going to compete with a larger sensor. And it really doesn't look like they have even used the extra monochrome sensor well (while suffering the expense of severe shutter lag while the camera tries to interpolate the information from two sensors).
I'm really disappointed that they cheaped out on the camera and were overly obssessed with not having even the tiniest camera hump (which I think Samsung and Apple have proven people are totally fine with and still think their designs are great). What attracts me to the Essential phone is the large screen in a small phone size (and the titanium and ceramic are nice pluses); but I really don't give a damn about a perfectly flat back. To get the nice design with the screen I was willing to accept the lack of a 3.5 mm jack and other corners they cut on features. But they hyped the camera as being great, when they knew they had inferior sensors in it. If they can't get the things they do have in the phone right, it's hard for me to still want to get this phone (or trust this company).

cb474 said:
Thanks. Yeah, I saw that yesterday. As I predicted, the sensor, IMX258, is a 1/3 sensor (and two years old at that). Super disappointing. This definitely explains the bad low light performance (along with EIS instead of OIS). As I said, I really doubt software updates are going to do much to improve it. Samsung has been putting larger sensors (1/2.5) in their phones for four years now. I big part of why the Pixel and U11 have good cameras are because of the 1/2.3 sensors in them. There is just no excuse for a so called "flagship" phone these days have a 1/3 sensor in it.
It seems like Essential was just overly obssessed with their perfectly flat back idea (which I don't even think looks so great, it's almost too plain) and thought they could do "magic" by combining two 1/3 sensors, one in BW mode, and somehow produce better pictures from two lower grade sensors. 2X bad information does not equal good information. Yeah, maybe they'll get a little extra detail out of the extra monochrome sensor. But it's not going to compete with a larger sensor. And it really doesn't look like they have even used the extra monochrome sensor well (while suffering the expense of severe shutter lag while the camera tries to interpolate the information from two sensors).
I'm really disappointed that they cheaped out on the camera and were overly obssessed with not having even the tiniest camera hump (which I think Samsung and Apple have proven people are totally fine with and still think their designs are great). What attracts me to the Essential phone is the large screen in a small phone size (and the titanium and ceramic are nice pluses); but I really don't give a damn about a perfectly flat back. To get the nice design with the screen I was willing to accept the lack of a 3.5 mm jack and other corners they cut on features. But they hyped the camera as being great, when they knew they had inferior sensors in it. If they can't get the things they do have in the phone right, it's hard for me to still want to get this phone (or trust this company).
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You are are neglecting to factor in the increase in pixel density of the larger sensors.
The 258 has an area of 4.84mm^2 the 318 has an area of 5.24 mm^2 this is a 8% increase in area but a 60% increase in pixel.
With the pixels smaller the light collection ability and noise performance is not necessarily better.
The 318 is the newest mobile sensor that Sony has and it has 1um pixels.
They claim no drop in low light performance and noise from their 1.12um pixel sensors.
Mind you , they do not claim an increase in low light performance or noise,
So I'm not ready to dismiss the camera yet.

I'm not quite ready to dismiss it either. While the LG G6 may not win any awards for its main camera, it is definitely serviceable. Technically, the essential phone should take better snaps with the monochrome sensor combo too.
The Google camera port should help sweeten things too. I dunno, we'll see.

Goronok said:
I'm not quite ready to dismiss it either. While the LG G6 may not win any awards for its main camera, it is definitely serviceable. Technically, the essential phone should take better snaps with the monochrome sensor combo too.
The Google camera port should help sweeten things too. I dunno, we'll see.
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Google camera is a port? Not just an app? Will it take advantage of both sensors?

km8j said:
Google camera is a port? Not just an app? Will it take advantage of both sensors?
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A developer ported the Pixel version of the app with its special SW processing. So it's not really the Google camera but the Pixel camera app. I asked Michael Fisher if he tried the Pixel cam port and if it made a difference and he heard it does improve the camera but he hasn't tried it himself.
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It also might help even more once we get Root as there is adb command to do that allows the Google HDR+ camera to use the hardware imaging processor in the qualcomn chips to work with it. Will be trying this as soon as I can.

IM0001 said:
It also might help even more once we get Root as there is adb command to do that allows the Google HDR+ camera to use the hardware imaging processor in the qualcomn chips to work with it. Will be trying this as soon as I can.
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Interested in seeing this.

tech_head said:
You are are neglecting to factor in the increase in pixel density of the larger sensors.
The 258 has an area of 4.84mm^2 the 318 has an area of 5.24 mm^2 this is a 8% increase in area but a 60% increase in pixel.
With the pixels smaller the light collection ability and noise performance is not necessarily better.
The 318 is the newest mobile sensor that Sony has and it has 1um pixels.
They claim no drop in low light performance and noise from their 1.12um pixel sensors.
Mind you , they do not claim an increase in low light performance or noise,
So I'm not ready to dismiss the camera yet.
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Huh?
The 1/2.3 sensor in the phones I was mentioning is something like the IMX378 (in the Pixel). The IMX318 is not in any of the phones I was talking about. The IMX378 in the Pixel and and the sensor in the U11 (IMX362) are physically larger and have larger pixels, 1.55 um and 1.4 um respectively. Or also something like the IMX333 in the S8. That's why they do exactly what I said which is capture more light, rather than mindlessly chase higher megapixel counts.
The IMX318 is just a megapixel chasing sensor (22.5 MP), which is probably why it's only in more gimmicky phones, like the Zenfone and the Mi Note 2. Anyway, it has absolutely zero to do with any of the phones or types of sensors I was talking about. I have no idea why you brought it up.

km8j said:
Google camera is a port? Not just an app? Will it take advantage of both sensors?
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It's both. Someone ported over the pixel HDR+ processing to work on most snapdragon 820/821/835 devices.
Really works quite well, although no, I don't think it will utilize the B&W sensor.

cb474 said:
Huh?
The 1/2.3 sensor in the phones I was mentioning is something like the IMX378 (in the Pixel). The IMX318 is not in any of the phones I was talking about. The IMX378 in the Pixel and and the sensor in the U11 (IMX362) are physically larger and have larger pixels, 1.55 um and 1.4 um respectively. Or also something like the IMX333 in the S8. That's why they do exactly what I said which is capture more light, rather than mindlessly chase higher megapixel counts.
The IMX318 is just a megapixel chasing sensor (22.5 MP), which is probably why it's only in more gimmicky phones, like the Zenfone and the Mi Note 2. Anyway, it has absolutely zero to do with any of the phones or types of sensors I was talking about. I have no idea why you brought it up.
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Okay, you are right about the 318.
The other sensors, Sony promotes a for cameras and they do not promote mobile. At least officially.
Essential made a design decision not to have a camera bump and also what would fit in the package.
Design is all about trade-offs. I've seen the pics of how full the thing is. Maybe one of the others just wouldn't fit? I don't know. I do know that if the bezels were larger I wouldn't be interested. If it were thicker, same thing.

I love the design of this phone but ya it does have tradeoffs for sure. Camera is one of them. They could have easily made the bottom bezel match the top like the S8 and put in a larger sensor for sure but decision was made to go for the super wow factor which is not necessarily a bad one in my eyes. That being said idk if i personally can "Downgrade" from the pixels camera...

tech_head said:
Okay, you are right about the 318.
The other sensors, Sony promotes a for cameras and they do not promote mobile. At least officially.
Essential made a design decision not to have a camera bump and also what would fit in the package.
Design is all about trade-offs. I've seen the pics of how full the thing is. Maybe one of the others just wouldn't fit? I don't know. I do know that if the bezels were larger I wouldn't be interested. If it were thicker, same thing.
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Whatever those sensors were originally intended for, they have been used in the best phone cameras for some time now. Samsung started using sensors like that in 2013 and Nokia, really the inventor of the modern high quality phone camera, started doing it in 2007. So Essential knew what they were doing (or not doing as the case may be).
I agree that there are trade offs with design. But Essential didn't say: in order to have a perfectly flat back we decided not to use the state of the art sensors found in other top phone cameras and do something that we think is good enough for standard users. Instead they went out of their way to promote the camera as what would be one of the stand out features of the phone. The even specifically hyped how great it's low light peformance would be. But anyone who knew the sensors they were using (without OIS) could have predicted it would not be as good as they claimed. In fact, the Xiaomi Mi 5s Plus tried the exact same configuration a year before, two IMX258 sensors, one RGB the other Monochrome, with no OIS, and that camera had the exact same performance problems. So no one can say with a straight face that they didn't know what would happen.
Not only am I disappointed in the substandard performance of the camera in the Essential Phone (for a contemporary flagship), but I think Essential was totally dishonest in how they promoted this phone and apparently thought their stupid customers and reviewers wouldn't notice. Which also contradicts their claim they would be a different kind of consumer friendly company. To me, the whole clearly dishonest camera hyping episode reveals that Essential is a very different, not so nice, kind of company than they claimed and it makes me very skeptical of their claims about everything else in the phone and that they plan to do.
So I think the way things unfolded is a little different than simply Essential decided to make a design trade off.
Also, Essential has made an awful lot of design trade offs. No 3.5 mm jack. No stereo speakers. No water proofing. No sd card. And now a subpar camera. At some point it's not worth it. I was willing to live with those other things, even though I was not excited about them (especially the 3.5 mm jack). But at least the features that are there should live up to the quality the phone claims to have and the camera just does not come close.
Lastly, I really don't get it, the obsession with the perfectly flat back. The great thing about the Esssential design is the front; it's the bezeless screen and fitting a relatively large screen in a phone much smaller than usual. Secondarly the titanium and ceramic are nice touches. But who gives sh.. about the perfectly flat back? Seriously. I don't think this would have affected anyone's perception of the phone. It would have taken a very minor hump to get an IMX378 in there and without the two sensors taking up more space, they could have had OIS. It also would have fit the Essential branding. They could have said: "We are not jumping on the dual camera gimmick band wagon (since dual cameras pretty much are a gimmick, all the different ways it's done). Large sensors and OIS are what makes cameras good. So that's what we're doing. Just the 'essential' things."
In the end, the flat back just seems like a misguided obsession of Rubin himself in his desire to make his fantasy personal perfect phone.

Sounds like the phone isn't for you lol. Quite the post.

jerflash said:
I love the design of this phone but ya it does have tradeoffs for sure. Camera is one of them. They could have easily made the bottom bezel match the top like the S8 and put in a larger sensor for sure but decision was made to go for the super wow factor which is not necessarily a bad one in my eyes. That being said idk if i personally can "Downgrade" from the pixels camera...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I doubt the design was by essential alone and instead their design choice limited by the display provided by Sharp who just released a similar phone.

if could change the ultra wide camera with the telephoto? did change it?

i bought this phone because he came with flat screen, and small factor , on of the the down sides (besides 12MP) in this version no telephoto lens
in my opinion you can just do a panorama for 3 seconds, but you can't mimic x2 real zoom
my last phone was 24 mega pixel (about twice pixels i checked and there's a big different especially that Samsung do alot of softing going on, leave the raw option aside)
but my last phone was pretty bad in night mode (ofcourse it not the might reason i switched , samsung is pretty good at night(not like pixel or p30 but good)

I have been into photography for some 55 years and have always favoured a standard and wide-angle lens for my cameras. If I could choose only one it would be a wide-angle. It pleases me more to approach my subject to get a closer vantage point should I need to do so. I have never enjoyed a telephoto lens - it reminds me of using a pair of binoculars. A zoom lens is even worse, IMO. Lazy photographer stays put and uses a zoom lens to frame his/her subject. There is something special about a wide angle lens. I previously had an iPhone XS and very, very rarely used the telephoto but often wished I had a wide angle lens. I like what Samsung has done with the S10e.
I'm finding the photographs I take on my S10e as good as, and often better than, my iPhone XS. Night mode to me is rather odd. If something about a dimly lit scene attracts you and you take a photo which makes it look like it was daytime, you have a photo which is markedly different to what you saw. It's a fad and IMO people use it because it is a 'feature'.

Mi note 10 vs pro

Hello,
I have bought just yesterday the normal version (non pro) and I would like to ask if anyone knows the differences at the pictures between the 7p and 8p lenses? In theory the 8p can capture more light, but how is this translated in real life? Does it worth the extra money for that difference? (I have a 14 day window to return it this is why I ask)
Thanks

You will be blown by the photos you take with the normal version so you don't need to buy the pro version 6GB ram and 128GB Storage is enough for everything from gaming to taking photos, browsing and anything i can say.

No I really don't care about the more RAM and Rom. Just curious about the photos only!

I ordered the Pro. Should arrive next week. Frankie Tech on youtube will upload a camera comparison of the two very soon.

cycloholic said:
Hello,
I have bought just yesterday the normal version (non pro) and I would like to ask if anyone knows the differences at the pictures between the 7p and 8p lenses? In theory the 8p can capture more light, but how is this translated in real life? Does it worth the extra money for that difference? (I have a 14 day window to return it this is why I ask)
Thanks
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
amount of lens group doesnt mean you can capture more light. Extra lens is used for correcting distortion, color aberration etc. The apperture itself is the same pro or not pro. So it should be able to capture same amount of light.
in daily usage, difference in camera result will be minor

Xiaomi said it should capture more light.
Why did I go for the Pro

Sorry if out of topic, I have a plan to buy this device, at the moment speak about lens (and apperture), some one says (mkbhd & droidlime) this device have a small focus area, and create a small focus object and large blur area, event the object is large in frame.
Maybe it's personal preference, but can this character can fix (create focus area larger) by software update or it's a hardware character and cannot change with software ?

Kasallamacher said:
Xiaomi said it should capture more light.
Why did I go for the Pro
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If anything, extra lens element is actually one extra layer of glass/plastic that will filter any light captured. So, better image maybe yes (by slight), but more light ? Am not sure how that works in photography logics, lol
---------- Post added at 07:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:16 PM ----------
adira.mardiani said:
Sorry if out of topic, I have a plan to buy this device, at the moment speak about lens (and apperture), some one says (mkbhd & droidlime) this device have a small focus area, and create a small focus object and large blur area, event the object is large in frame.
Maybe it's personal preference, but can this character can fix (create focus area larger) by software update or it's a hardware character and cannot change with software ?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
To understand this, you will need to understand the correlation between sensor size and depth of field.
Put it simple, bigger camera sensor have capability to geta shallower depth of field.
This is an advantage if you like to shot some scene which have a distinct foreground object, and want to have good separation with background. Think portrait, for example.
But this might become disadvantage when you try to get a lot of object to be in focus. Example would be a group shot with some people standing behind others. The one stand behind might be already out of focus range.
This is hardware characteristic, which applied to any camera out there. Back in film era, this happen to medium format cam. In digital camera era, you can compare the depth of field between full frame camera, APS-C camera and Micro 4/3rd camera. Image from full frame camera (which has bigger sensor than other) will always have smaller focus area (shallower depth of field) when being used in same apperture setting.
This is physics. Even if you try to compensate it using software (by put sharpening in object that located further from camera), it still there, the effect.
The only thing can change this is if smartphone camera start having an active apperture system (you can change F value). But since by today, all smartphone still using fixed apperture in its lenses, nothing can be done related to what you ask.
For more details about how sensor size affecting focus area :
https://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/digital-camera-sensor-size.htm

otonieru said:
If anything, extra lens element is actually one extra layer of glass/plastic that will filter any light captured. So, better image maybe yes (by slight), but more light ? Am not sure how that works in photography logics, lol
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
yeah doesn't make sense but at the same time Xiaomi didn't add another lense for the lols and didn't give that exact version to Dx0Mark for no reason...

Kasallamacher said:
yeah doesn't make sense but at the same time Xiaomi didn't add another lense for the lols and didn't give that exact version to Dx0Mark for no reason...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
As i wrote above,
The extra lens definitely not for lol. Extra lens element is used for variety of reasons, mostly to correct distortion and color aberration. But definitely not for extra light reasons.

Kasallamacher said:
Xiaomi said it should capture more light.
Why did I go for the Pro
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Usually in a Lens group, more len can capture more light is true.
for example, 8p lens maybe capture 99.5% of light, but 7p lens maybe only 99.2%.
The different is not big.
But "more light" is not the major benefit.
Usually more lens may correct the image better to fit the sensor.

Mi note 10 pro has problem focusing
otonieru said:
To understand this, you will need to understand the correlation between sensor size and depth of field.
Put it simple, bigger camera sensor have capability to geta shallower depth of field.
This is an advantage if you like to shot some scene which have a distinct foreground object, and want to have good separation with background. Think portrait, for example.
But this might become disadvantage when you try to get a lot of object to be in focus. Example would be a group shot with some people standing behind others. The one stand behind might be already out of focus range.
This is hardware characteristic, which applied to any camera out there. Back in film era, this happen to medium format cam. In digital camera era, you can compare the depth of field between full frame camera, APS-C camera and Micro 4/3rd camera. Image from full frame camera (which has bigger sensor than other) will always have smaller focus area (shallower depth of field) when being used in same apperture setting.
This is physics. Even if you try to compensate it using software (by put sharpening in object that located further from camera), it still there, the effect.
The only thing can change this is if smartphone camera start having an active apperture system (you can change F value). But since by today, all smartphone still using fixed apperture in its lenses, nothing can be done related to what you ask.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hi otonieru
I appreciate you explaining the relationship between sensor size and depth of field.
My new note 10 pro main camera seems to have trouble focusing even in good day light, it repeatedly focuses on the background instead of the person i want to photograph, even though i physically tap the person's face on screen. The 5x camera focuses fine though.
Do you think this is a hardware or software issue?
Many thanks!