Database Info

Submitting Patches to the Repo / Forking

Hi all!
I'm an android developer, and I regularly read the official android-dev and android-porting lists, but on all the fan blogs and from lurking here, it seems that all the good development is coming from XDA-dev!
So why don't you guys do some patch submission? Features like auto-rotating browser and the transition animations should really, really be in the main source, but the official Android team have their thumbs up their asses in regards to UI/polished stuff.. (I bet they're too busy working on the lower level cellular stuff and the ARM-generating stuff like in the *flinger libraries).
So you guys should make some patch submissions over at (http://source.android.com/submit-patches)!
That way, the next RC will have all of these lovely features you guys have implemented.
((Or, alternately (but more ambitiously), fork the entire codebase. Strip out the DRM and add a framework for native code execution. Perhaps that's a pipe dream, though..))
Thoughts?

I think forking the Android source would be a very nice touch, if Google doesn't pull it together. We could still add on to stuff from the official code, but add on all the special stuff that Google refuses to (they've said they won't add the ability to change CPU speed, etc).

Oh, absolutely, there would be numerous advantages to having a fork. It should definitely be discussed! I'm afraid that Google may be trying to exert too much control on their platform in ways that we don't always want, so there is nothing legally to stop us from forking and maintain a more badass tree. GitHub could provide the hosting.
Of course, it might be a waste of effort. If you submit the badass patches, then the good features here go out into all the phones in the next versions. Work on the fork, and only the selected users who are able to flash their own phones can use it, unless some Chinese companies start using it or something like that.
Names?
XanDroid? I'd rather like to see Mandroid with in a slick black theme..

Well to me it seems like the only people doing cool things right now with android have rooted devices
So why cant you ***** a little on google lists to make them actually do some work. The Roadmap @ http://source.android.com/roadmap is a joke. Either they give us root or they start working imo. =)

Seanambers said:
Well to me it seems like the only people doing cool things right now with android have rooted devices
So why cant you ***** a little on google lists to make them actually do some work. The Roadmap @ http://source.android.com/roadmap is a joke. Either they give us root or they start working imo. =)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Do you think that the release of the new unlocked Dev phones will change things?

Yeah it'll most probably shake things up a bit, however what about all those that already have a g1?
I for sure isnt buying a new phone to get root.

But even so, we're still talking about modifications to the OS and the packaged applications, which would be released in the next RC version, so even non-root users would get the features in the next update, along with anyone running Android on something besides a G1.

my .02
Id say submit some of the things found here and see what goog does with it, if they openly add these things that need root at this point and let xda dev participate in the OS with such submitions...then cool thats how open source works best, when anybody can add to the project, a phone OS utopia
If they ignore it then, a fork is the way to go but give google a chance to do the right thing first before, just leaving them in the xdadevs dust with a custom distro...

bhang said:
Id say submit some of the things found here and see what goog does with it, if they openly add these things that need root at this point and let xda dev participate in the OS with such submitions...then cool thats how open source works best, when anybody can add to the project, a phone OS utopia
If they ignore it then, a fork is the way to go but give google a chance to do the right thing first before, just leaving them in the xdadevs dust with a custom distro...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Google has refused to add multiple features. They feel that they aren't necessary, or that your average consumer wouldn't want it (main thing I can think of atm is CPU speed).
If they don't add the features we request, simply because *they* don't like them, then a fork would get us exactly what we want/need. After we fork it, and the number of users using stock Android plummet, maybe they will listen .

I see a problem with forking... who says what is allowed and not allowed? That is the main problem. Now if you wanted to just add an app that would be one thing but there is not going to be an easy way to do this.

Gary13579 said:
Google has refused to add multiple features. They feel that they aren't necessary, or that your average consumer wouldn't want it (main thing I can think of atm is CPU speed).
If they don't add the features we request, simply because *they* don't like them, then a fork would get us exactly what we want/need. After we fork it, and the number of users using stock Android plummet, maybe they will listen .
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Given the number of G1s with modified fw installed compared to the total number of sold units, I somehow doubt the number of users is going to plummet.
IMHO it would be a needless fork unless some new or considerably modified features were planned. Better to just patch the functionality into the official builds, if at all possible.

I'm not convinced by that logic. There would be an important difference between a fork and patched versions of the firmware, as a fork would have a totally different design philosophy. Whereas Android is focused on speed (or whatever the hell they're concentrating on..but to be honest, I think they're dicking about over there), Mandroid could have more focus on polished features and low-level access. ((And! No DRM, and I'd like to see some more security features..ZRTP?))
Either way, I think it's really important for the success of the open future of phones that the open source community take and give back. There's no need for the back-and-forth like with, say, PSP-cracking as we have the source code and we are allowed to do whatever we like with it. If we just keep patching what they give us and keeping the modifications closed, then we aren't really in control.
As for project management, I'm absolutely sure there are people who are capable of maintaining an active open-source project such as this, as long as there is a well-thought out design philosophy. I'd love to be involved, if enough people are willing to give it a shot. But, first, it'd be easier just to submit patches.

Miserlou! said:
PSP-cracking
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
PSP cracking is insanely different. If you were in that scene, does my name look familiar ? Was net admin at toc2rta/malloc, admin of psp-hacks.com, worked with a lot of people on a lot of stuff that I barely remember as it was years ago .
But for the PSP, we were working with a system we knew nothing about. So yes, Android would be a lot simpler to work with. But if Google doesn't listen to us, it's not like it would really matter.

neoobs said:
I see a problem with forking... who says what is allowed and not allowed? That is the main problem. Now if you wanted to just add an app that would be one thing but there is not going to be an easy way to do this.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Android is licensed by both the Apache Software License (do whatever you want with it) and the General Public License (do whatever you want with it as long as you make the source code available for others). We are certainly allowed to do this, but the problem lies with the G1 owners running the official RC30. They wont have the rights required to flash the image which leaves them out of the party.

2 words
The community(did I spell that right?)
Bhang

Datruesurfer said:
Android is licensed by both the Apache Software License (do whatever you want with it) and the General Public License (do whatever you want with it as long as you make the source code available for others). We are certainly allowed to do this, but the problem lies with the G1 owners running the official RC30. They wont have the rights required to flash the image which leaves them out of the party.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I meant who is going to the be decision maker of what features will be added... The Community as a whole? What about some that want it but only 25% of the community wants it?

neoobs said:
I meant who is going to the be decision maker of what features will be added... The Community as a whole? What about some that want it but only 25% of the community wants it?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's what project leads are for. And hypothetically when enough people are dissatisfied with the xda-dev fork they will go and create their own fork. Except I don't think there is any real argument yet to go and create an xda-dev fork in the first place. Forking an operating system meaningfully is not a weekend project for a single person.

I have said it before, let's give them a bit more of a chance, a fork isn't something a guy can do in a weekend.
So let's see what happens in RC3X, the next release will give folks a bbetter idea of where their heads are at. If enough of the community is unhappy there will be a fork
Bhang

SONY encouraging developers to create modify and install Linuxkernels in there phones

It may come as a surprise to many, that Sony's mobile smartphone division are actively encouraging developers to create, modify and install customised Linux kernels into their latest lineup of phones, including the Xperia Play, the device that was once known as "The Playstation Phone".
When Sony originally released their Xperia line of Android phones, many people were disappointed at how locked down the devices were. Many people consider Android's flexibility one of its best features, yet it's difficult if not impossible to install a customized OS if the phone's bootloader is locked down. This was particularly noticeable on Sony's phones as they were slow to roll out newer Android OS versions, leaving many users on Android 1.6 while different manufacturers happily rolled out 2.1 and even 2.2. Many users were annoyed at the lack of updates, but also at the inability to install an unofficial Android ROM.
Sony took a lot of this criticism on board and announced that their 2011 range of phones, such as the Xperia Arc and the Xperia Play, would have the ability to have their bootloaders unlocked. Before the phones were even in stores, Sony launched a dedicated site for unlocking your phone.
http://unlockbootloader.sonyericsson.com/
However, Sony has now gone a step further and given detailed instructions on how to create your own customized Linux kernel for the devices. The blog goes into great detail on how to build, assemble and flash a kernel using the source that Sony legally has to provide, thanks to the GPL license that the Linux kernels falls under. Customized Kernels are par for the course in the Android world. They're often used to extend the features and functionality of the device, such as allowing it to support additional file systems, improve the camera, increase battery life, and allow for overclocking, among many other things.
It isn't for the feint of heart, though and the blog does repeatedly state that doing anything of the sort could void your warranty, nor do Sony Ericsson promise any kind of support, however they have promised to monitor the community and help out where they can:
Sony Ericsson does not guarantee any support on this, but we will monitor the Building the Linux kernel for Xperia phones thread on the XDA Developers forum. However, we cannot guarantee an answer for every question asked in this forum.
This is a significant step forward for Sony, who appear to have made a complete 180 degree turn when it comes to their mobile devices. It also means that Sony is one of the most developer-friendly handset manufacturers out there, arguably making their phones as developer-friendly as Google's own-brand devices, if not more.
George Hotz once bragged that he would be the first to "hack" the Xperia play, but it seems Sony themselves beat him to the punch by opening the device up to everyone.
http://unlockbootloader.sonyericsson.com/

Go Sony!! Finally starting to loosen up on their proprietary noose!!

RFrisch said:
Go Sony!! Finally starting to loosen up on their proprietary noose!!
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Click to collapse
Yes indeed.

Damn, did you just copy and paste the article?
Sent from my PC36100 using XDA Premium App

conqu1stador said:
Damn, did you just copy and paste the article?
Sent from my PC36100 using XDA Premium App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No i didnt. actualy i did but from this article.
http://www.neowin.net/news/sony-helps-and-encourages-developers-to-install-linux-on-their-phones
Not yours

It is encouraging to see Sony / S.E. trying to change their game up for the better. Especially taking an active approach and not just being 'cool with it.'
I dig it.
Sent from my PC36100 using XDA Premium App

"More like we won't update your phone's OS, do it yourself " by thealexweb @ neowin.net
i lold

Djidara said:
"More like we won't update your phone's OS, do it yourself " by thealexweb @ neowin.net
i lold
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i guess u are right. this will be a proplem for majority of consumers whom cant to do it there selfs. or cant search on xda xD.
on SE arc the work already began for roms.

Nice!!! HTC, please learn from Sony...

[PROJECT] WebGL for Xperia™ phones - open source project by Sony Ericsson

Hi all devs,
In November, we, Sony Ericsson, announced that we were the first phone manufacturer in the world to support WebGL through the native Android browser of Xperia™ phones. As a next step, we are now releasing our WebGL implementation for our coming Xperia™ phones running Android™ 4.0 (Ice Cream Sandwich) and above as open source.
https://github.com/sonyericssondev/WebGL
Feel free to ask questions, discuss and make suggestion, Sony Ericsson web-browsing experts will monitor this thread and try to answer as soon as possible.
Here you have the full blog-post at Developer World.
/Karl-Johan Dahlström
Sony Ericsson Developer Program

*Bumping the thread*

Makes me wonder if such things might be possible to implement into other devices.

for sure, but you need gpu drivers, mostly privative, im forgeting this im on lg p990,

Time to switch phone, maybe ;-)

nejc121 said:
Makes me wonder if such things might be possible to implement into other devices.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Considering that Sony Ericsson seems to take the "for the greater good of the platform" approach to Android development in many cases I doubt that would be a problem. Just look at how much they contribute to AOSP that also greatly benefits their competitors.
Looking at this commit that seems to include a lot of the additions, it seems like a pretty general implementation.

Is anyone outside of Sony able to get this WebGL implementation working?
I am using an omap reference, with 4.0.3 mr1 with TI drives and codecs, and I'm able to get the AFS compiled with Sony's WebGL implementation (yes, I saw there was an update on 1/31/2012 which added in a LOT of changes).
The browser works fine, but the browser crashes as it tries to load any WebGL example.
I've been trying to examples on the khronos site.
Was curious if anyone else was able to get it working ???

Laughable.
Sony does this, it gets ignored by the Sony hating internet, yet all these same sites were falling over themselves to report anything bad they could dig up about them... I'm guessing Microsoft were paying the wages of all the tech websites and had effective editorial control.

CrazyPeter said:
Laughable.
Sony does this, it gets ignored by the Sony hating internet, yet all these same sites were falling over themselves to report anything bad they could dig up about them... I'm guessing Microsoft were paying the wages of all the tech websites and had effective editorial control.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
CrazyPeter,
I'm not following you completely here. I wasn't aware the internet hated Sony, but know their DRM policies have never sat well with some OSS supporters.
I am not sure how that would relate to these additions to webkit which Sony open sourced. IMO that is a good thing and Sony should be applauded for such an effort. My biggest worry is that we'll see multiple WebGL implementations, possibly one from Google themselves. It is not clear to me just exactly what Google announced last week in regards to Chrome, I need to read up on that again...if Google puts Chrome back into the webkit repo, it would make sense that it would need some type of WebGL implementation.
At the same time it would seem that nvidia/khronos would have an implementation of WebGL themselves, with the popularity of the Tegra devices growing every day.
AFAICT you need a device wtih a GPU to run the WebGL sources Sony published, it won't run in the emulator. I don't get an error in the browser when I open a WebGL page, so it thinks the browser supports it, AFAICT.

SoftOrchestra said:
CrazyPeter,
I'm not following you completely here. I wasn't aware the internet hated Sony, but know their DRM policies have never sat well with some OSS supporters.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is really it, you have latched onto a handful of cherrypicked stories about how Sony loves proprietary formats etc, everyone will bring up ATRAC and the same old regurgitated crap about that SonyBMG CD copy protection stuff from like a decade ago.
The point is, there are hundreds of companies, bigger and worse than Sony on this. Microsoft and Apple get a free pass, nobody dare mention their DRM schemes and crimes against consumers..... I wonder why...
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Implementation details
Hi,
I really appreciate your work of WebGL support in Android browser, thanks for open-sourcing it as well.
I am an WebKit browser enthusiast and I have following question about WebGL implementation.
a). You seem to be using Angle project for compiling shader etc. If I am correct, Angle need to be used only when the platform doesn't support OpenGL ES2.0, in which case Angle will convert the GL calls to driver specific calls. However, android supports OpenGL ES2.0, hence, is it required to use Angle?
b). Current implementation seem to share the textures created in render thread with UI thread using EGLImageKHR (Completely hardware accelerated path). But it also has the mechanism to render via CPU using paintRenderingResultsToCanvas method. Assuming that the default way of rendering in hardware accelerated, is CPU based method to render in necessary?
Thanks,

CrazyPeter said:
This is really it, you have latched onto a handful of cherrypicked stories about how Sony loves proprietary formats etc, everyone will bring up ATRAC and the same old regurgitated crap about that SonyBMG CD copy protection stuff from like a decade ago.
The point is, there are hundreds of companies, bigger and worse than Sony on this. Microsoft and Apple get a free pass, nobody dare mention their DRM schemes and crimes against consumers..... I wonder why...
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
REALLY ?!?!?!?!
No offence m8 but the way your spinning it Sony are the planets hardware saviours and any criticism of them deserves an international war crimes trial.
Now am far from a Sony hater i spent hundreds of pounds (back when hundreds was BIG money) buying there portable tape players and minidisc's back in the 80-90's. i still own and worship my Sony MDR A34's as the best ever compact folding headphones, have 2 spare pairs even though Sony pulled the plug on them in early 2000's.
So am no Sony hater ........ but i struggle to recognise this picture you paint of a dedicated tech company faithfully serving its consumer bases.
There are GOOD reasons why many don't hold Sony in high regard.
They have always tended towards proprietary formats .......... thats just a fact. Often in the face of a well established standard.
For one reason to gouge costumers!!!
And they are still doing it.
They single handedly responsible for the 3rd party fake PS3 pad market as they GOUGE such a HUGE premium price out of loyal Gheystation (sorry couldn't help that one) owners for pads that it is economical to manufacture crap fakes and sell them as genuine.
They drop great product lines that still sell with HUGE consumer bases, in order to try and push consumers into new lines (often of questionable abilities in comparison to what they replaced)
Just don't get me started on some of Sony's failings, they are far from the injured party.

CrazyPeter said:
This is really it, you have latched onto a handful of cherrypicked stories about how Sony loves proprietary formats etc, everyone will bring up ATRAC and the same old regurgitated crap about that SonyBMG CD copy protection stuff from like a decade ago.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is not really it, IMO, as the game has been evolving from proprietary formats to more open formats over the past 10 years, 20 years, and even 30 years.
CrazyPeter said:
The point is, there are hundreds of companies, bigger and worse than Sony on this. Microsoft and Apple get a free pass, nobody dare mention their DRM schemes and crimes against consumers..... I wonder why...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
There are various reasons, but it's not as if anyone is targeting any specific company. Companies involved in practice that customers don't align to will end up taking the heat. This is not to say that Sony hasn't brought goodness to the world we live in, if it hadn't been for Sony there wouldn't have been VHS decks, let alone BETA decks. This is one reason why Sony gets scrutiny, they have been involved in an area that is dear to copyright protection. Before video decks, how could people record ? Music as well, Sony has provided and sold devices to copy/record/playback music.
I just point this out as Sony is no worse than you or me, they merely find a way to sell products that record/playback to consumers, just as Apple does. It's the RIAA, BMI, ASCAP, the motion picture industry, etc...that need to be reformed. Ok, Sony is a part of that also...but they weren't always...:-/
Guru Zeb said:
There are GOOD reasons why many don't hold Sony in high regard. They have always tended towards proprietary formats .......... thats just a fact. Often in the face of a well established standard.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
They have no choice. They sell products to consumers who can then record/playback various types of media. You can't get away from that easily.
That said, I never intended to defend or belittle Sony, although I admit to being a huge supporter of Sony as a company and technology in general over the years.
I am also happy to say that I have gotten the Sony WebGL code working on the TI omap device. I will be in touch with Anders or other folks working on the WebGL tree, to get my patch into the WebGL tree, so that others don't need to bang their head against the wall...
Without Sony's release of this WebGL based implementation, it would have required much more work. In my case I'm using a device with the SGX 540 display from Imagination Technology, and the driver tosses chunks with the display context that is created, when it tries to set the context current. This made this a very difficult problem to solve. I just figured this out recently so need to do more testing next week before I get back to Sony.
Domo Arigato Gozaimashita, Sony!

xc0ffee said:
a). You seem to be using Angle project for compiling shader etc. If I am correct, Angle need to be used only when the platform doesn't support OpenGL ES2.0, in which case Angle will convert the GL calls to driver specific calls. However, android supports OpenGL ES2.0, hence, is it required to use Angle?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Angle is not used for compiling the shaders, only to validate them. Currently, no OpenGL ES2.0 shader compiler is equipped to handle the special restrictions that WebGL place on shader contents, hence we need something like Angle that has support for WebGL. The same solution is used by most desktop browsers.
xc0ffee said:
b). Current implementation seem to share the textures created in render thread with UI thread using EGLImageKHR (Completely hardware accelerated path). But it also has the mechanism to render via CPU using paintRenderingResultsToCanvas method. Assuming that the default way of rendering in hardware accelerated, is CPU based method to render in necessary?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The function paintRenderingResultsToCanvas is not used on a per-frame basis. It is only invoked in special circumstances, like when the user's script requests to have the frambebuffer contents painted to a 2D canvas.
/Anders

Thank you for your distribution

Introducing tinyApps

I've lurked around these forums for a while, occasionally dabbling in various models that I've owned or had an interest in. I've now decided that it's high time a complete fleet of apps were developed with CM in mind.
Introducing tinyApps!
The concept is relatively simple. Cyanogen is often a means of experiencing a newer version of Android on a device that is otherwise unsupported. For example: I have an HTC Desire Z as a daily driver. I run CM10.1 (or android 4.2.2) and it performs pretty damned well. I've also owned much less powerful phones, such as the Optimus ME P350 from LG, on which I ran 4.0.4, and found most apps very demanding.
I'm going to be developing, over the course of several months, the following apps:
tRadio
tMusic
tWeb
tFiles
tFilms
and last, but by no means least, tGallery.
These are all applications that I have found to be reasonably demanding, or unsuccessful in meeting my expectations.
I'm gonna get paid!
I'm not going to canvas for donations, that isn't my style. Instead, I'm going to fund these apps by adverts. I'll be sure to keep these as unintrusive as possible, eg:
No full-screen adverts (if possible)
In the same place across all applications
placed so as to avoid accidental clicks
as static as possible, to avoid excess data charges
removable by a fee made as small as possible - e.g 50p UK sterling
I'm very keen to hear suggestions and feature requests, although please keep in mind that these apps are designed to be as small as possible. If all goes well, we can perhaps push for them to be included as part of CyanogenMod (Nobody ever said I wasn't aspirational, no?).

&Delinquent[$] said:
I've lurked around these forums for a while, occasionally dabbling in various models that I've owned or had an interest in. I've now decided that it's high time a complete fleet of apps were developed with CM in mind.
Introducing tinyApps!
The concept is relatively simple. Cyanogen is often a means of experiencing a newer version of Android on a device that is otherwise unsupported. For example: I have an HTC Desire Z as a daily driver. I run CM10.1 (or android 4.2.2) and it performs pretty damned well. I've also owned much less powerful phones, such as the Optimus ME P350 from LG, on which I ran 4.0.4, and found most apps very demanding.
I'm going to be developing, over the course of several months, the following apps:
tRadio
tMusic
tWeb
tFiles
tFilms
and last, but by no means least, tGallery.
These are all applications that I have found to be reasonably demanding, or unsuccessful in meeting my expectations.
I'm gonna get paid!
I'm not going to canvas for donations, that isn't my style. Instead, I'm going to fund these apps by adverts. I'll be sure to keep these as unintrusive as possible, eg:
No full-screen adverts (if possible)
In the same place across all applications
placed so as to avoid accidental clicks
as static as possible, to avoid excess data charges
removable by a fee made as small as possible - e.g 50p UK sterling
I'm very keen to hear suggestions and feature requests, although please keep in mind that these apps are designed to be as small as possible. If all goes well, we can perhaps push for them to be included as part of CyanogenMod (Nobody ever said I wasn't aspirational, no?).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Interesting concept but really just an empty thread. It would be awesome if you could update others on what the project looks like and more detail!
If you ever need any help in designs and such, do contact me. I'm also interested in the development of (what now seems very alpha) the app. :good:

Nice.
I suggest that you can access that application in "small" window like Sony smart app do. I'd be great

Araragi said:
Nice.
I suggest that you can access that application in "small" window like Sony smart app do. I'd be great
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thatll take a lot if effort though
XD.
I'd be great
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Its: That'll be great

Araragi said:
Nice.
I suggest that you can access that application in "small" window like Sony smart app do. I'd be great
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'll second this idea!

Also a video player or is that films?

OlinB said:
I'll second this idea!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Creating a Sony styled Small apps requires something along the Sony framework for those things to work so gd luck!

Look out! tRadio is coming sometime next month!

Interested to see what you have what in store
Sent from my C5303 using XDA Premium 4 mobile app

P20 Pro: a Developer's perspective: concerns about the device, kernel and software

hey folks,
PREFACE:
I'm posting this so that others thinking about purchasing the device may get a perspective that they won't find in a YouTube product review, on the huawei subreddit, etc... I'm also posting to bring awareness to device owners/this community... Before replying, please have a look through the thread; I'm starting to provide a lot of info, that may give better insights to the problems I see...
NOTE:
I'm not bashing you for buying this device, so don't take my criticisms personally... I will try to provide as much info as I can. feel free to ask questions, share your own insights/experiences, etc...
First, i'd like to point out that the hardware is great, EMUI is better than i expected and has some nice extras (compared with stock android). There are many aspects that I do like about the phone, however there are many problems too. I take issue with a few things that I will outline in this post && in the thread;
- huawei revoking the bootloader unlock service
- huawei is extremely developer unfriendly/hostile.
- huawei's poor management of customers, poor policies && support
- huawei's "technical support" staff lack any real knowledge of their products.
- huawei as a company seems to be shady, imho && lacks any transparency.
It is very unfortunate, because i do like the device (the hardware/build seems to be very good). the leica cameras + camera software are great. i do like the native dark theme, the CPU is fast, nice display, etc.. but given the above and also after poking around the kernel code, in depth;
- huawei's kernel sources are by far the absolute worst kernel source code that I've seen in my life.
- it appears huawei has intentionally obfuscated their changesets, by how they distribute them...
- the code doesn't follow C standards, nor any consistent coding style / best practices typically found in the linux kernel.
- the published source code may not even be what's running on the device (EDIT: It's not. I've now verified this, follow the link at the bottom).
- they are also using a technology that allows live patching the running kernel remotely (so even if the sources are the same, it can be patched at runtime anyway. cant be properly audited)...
- they are a full year behind on linux LTS.
I have contacted huawei directly via email, phone and live chat (EDIT: everyday now, since I posted this thread and I will be continuing to do so). They have given me the run around continually and their staff were not able to give me any satisfactory answers to my concerns, nor did i get the impression they even gave a crap ... They have only added to my suspicions (significantly) and along with the recent bad press that huawei has had in US, UK, Canada (where i am) and Australia; i don't trust huawei, their lack of transparency and lack of cooperation; is rather unsettling... Likewise, I find their hostility towards developers and users who would like to service their own devices (via OEM unlock) to be a brutal policy. (especially since their justifications are mostly FUD/untrue.).
- Audio latency is also horrible on the P20 Pro. it experiences anywhere from 50-500ms of latency with pro audio type apps. (noise app by roli in playstore shows just how bad it is, so does Beatonal app, many others too.) the device uses x6 the audio buffering compared the OG pixel. (the OG pixel has no problems with low latency at all, with far lower specs).
so to recap; it's pretty sad and unfortunate,
- i can't run my apps. (love my music creation apps)
- i have no control or ownership over my P20 Pro. apparently only huawei and the Chinese gov't do.
- i don't trust or have faith in the manufacturer.
- the kernel source code is disgusting and incomplete.
- I find some of the technology used troubling at best.
Here's some links in the thread, where some of the above is discussed in more detail;
some kernel source related issues outlined in more detail by me:
https://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=78186512&postcount=37
(note: I'm discussing evira kernel, but nearly all of the issues apply to the distributed kernel sources that evira is based on)
if you are interested in helping me verify if the kernel sources actually reflect what's running on your device, follow this post;
https://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=78182210&postcount=32 (this would be very helpful, as it will be ammo that I bring to huawei).
The distributed kernel sources are absolutely NOT the kernel sources used to compile the kernel that's running on your device:
https://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=78188018&postcount=42
(this is an update to the above help request; I've now verified that at least L29/LO4 running kernels differ from the provided sources)
livepatch/OASES/Karma technology used by huawei, zte and others:
https://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=78574615&postcount=86

So wait, you've only had it for a few days and you're trying to make a warning against buying the phone?

Giraff3 said:
So wait, you've only had it for a few days and you're trying to make a warning against buying the phone?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
not exactly. I'm outlining my experience and why i am returning the phone, so that others who may have similar requirements and/or concerns avoid making the same mistake, by purchasing this phone only to be unhappy with it.....
the length of time that I've owned the phone isn't a factor because it doesn't fix any of the issues that i point out... *why would you even think that after reading what i wrote???* ... if it was just a matter of getting used to the device, that would be another story.
to be clear; i don't have any issue with the UX, performance, build quality or any of that jazz, really. the cameras are great, phone is a beast. However, huawei's policies, their lack of transparency, the device being locked down, their source code being sketchy, other security concerns and yeah; the audio latency... big problems (for me, possibly others)...
holding on to or having used the phone for a longer period of time doesn't fix any of these issues... if i wasn't into software development, didn't care about unlocked bootloader, etc - i might very well be happy with the device... It's a great phone, if none of these details/issues effect or matter to you...

the fact you can't run a launcher like Nova does it for me, terrible mistake

ant78 said:
the fact you can't run a launcher like Nova does it for me, terrible mistake
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Click to collapse
I use Nova just fine.

ant78 said:
the fact you can't run a launcher like Nova does it for me, terrible mistake
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Click to collapse
What do you mean? I've had the P20 Pro since end of August, installed Nova Launcher the moment I took it out of the box and been running fine since. Mind you the lack of bootloader unlock or having to pay for it doesn't fly well with me but haven't found myself needing to root this device like all my previous devices for customization. The P20 Pro has let me do everything I wanted.

StatikBlue said:
What do you mean? I've had the P20 Pro since end of August, installed Nova Launcher the moment I took it out of the box and been running fine since. Mind you the lack of bootloader unlock or having to pay for it doesn't fly well with me but haven't found myself needing to root this device like all my previous devices for customization. The P20 Pro has let me do everything I wanted.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No idea what they are talking about 3rd part launchers work just fine. It's just less obvious how to change them vs. stock android... but I had Apex launcher installed 15 minutes after turning on the device, wasn't hard to figure out.
the lack of unlocked bootloader is problematic, beyond just having root ~ once huawei stops pushing updates, if you still own the phone; no way to service or update it.... and for me, I actually like to audit my devices and know what's going on inside of them (and that's why I spend days going through their kernel source code too) ~ pretty hard to audit anything on the device though, without unlocked bootloader + root.
I do agree though, there is lots of stuff baked into the rom, so customization OOTB is pretty good...and i do like that...
On the other hand though, I like having AdAway, AFWall and other root apps.... and at least one of the issues that I mentioned; the audio latency problem ~ I could probably fix if I was rooted... I'm actually pretty shocked that huawei software engineers think that high latency is somehow acceptable....
the latency makes playing instruments on my phone impossible ~ latency has to be low, the sound must play as I touch the notes ~ but instead, there is an extremely long delay / completely unusable. The latency is worse than most early / very old android devices...

So you're saying the phone is great then? Bootloader is easily unlocked and if you want to make unsubstantiated claims that Huawei is spying on us you might want to back up with some proof. There would probably more development on this phone if the US didn't stop Huawei from selling it there over unproven spying claims.

Giraff3 said:
So you're saying the phone is great then? Bootloader is easily unlocked and if you want to make unsubstantiated claims that Huawei is spying on us you might want to back up with some proof. There would probably more development on this phone if the US didn't stop Huawei from selling it there over unproven spying claims.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's just the US being the US man. Trump and his clown posse are more of a threat to the citizens then Huawei would ever be.

Giraff3 said:
So you're saying the phone is great then? Bootloader is easily unlocked and if you want to make unsubstantiated claims that Huawei is spying on us you might want to back up with some proof. There would probably more development on this phone if the US didn't stop Huawei from selling it there over unproven spying claims.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm saying it's a mixed bag, not that it's a great phone... some aspects of the phone are great, some are absolutely terrible. ~ even if I ignore the security issues, poor quality of their source code ~ I'm still left with a locked device, slow updates, a company with crappy policies, crappy support, no accountability && a phone that can't even run my applications; the audio latency is worse than most ancient android devices. seriously... in 2018, several hundred ms of latency is unacceptable (samsung devices, google devices, etc - do not have this problem... and apple products NEVER had this problem, even 10years ago).
Bootloader is easily unlocked by paying shady third parties, who I don't know and who I don't want to give my personal nor unique identifiers to... give me a frickin' break and *stop acting like this is some ideal situation, it's not*.... Huawei has screwed end users by discontinuing the service, their justifications is BS... If they want to void a warranty of unlock bootloaders; that's fine, then do that - but don't lock users out of servicing their own devices that they've purchased with their own money and that THEY OWN.... again, it's BS... and guess what; Google doesn't even void your warranty over oem unlocking, it's a supported feature ~ if you brick your device (through your own stupidity), they may invalidate it ~ but unlocking the device, does not void your warranty (i know from direct experience).... I don't buy into Huawei's excuses at all...
The fact that huawei are live patching the kernel, means that they can essentially backdoor your device at any time. you have ZERO idea what the kernel is doing, no way to proper audit the code.... The fact that they've obfuscated their own changes and their source code for the device has all sorts of problems, says a lot ~ They've went well out of there way to provide their source code like this... There is absolutely no way that during development, they were using these sources.... they've intentionally done this.... why do that, if you have nothing to hide? ... it's highly suspicious and dubious, at best... That is proof enough to cast serious doubt on Huawei.
Huawei is using the same kernel live patching technology in both mobile and IOT ~ no wonder the US wants to purge all of huawei's hardware from their infrastructure and why the gov't doesn't want it's employees using Huawei's devices and also why they are putting pressure on Canada to do the same (for our 5G networks)...
huawei has plenty of controversies; intellectual property theft, espionage, etc. it's not like the US is the only country that that is distrusting of huawei's activities.... e.g: Canada excluded huawei from being involved with the gov't secure network infrastructure too (years ago, long before the USA). We've also denied several Huawei employee's permanent residency, over concerns of espionage, gov't subversion, etc...
You can't really blame the USA for the lack of development for this device... there would be way more development if Huawei didn't screw over users by taking away the unlocking service ~ the US blocking their gov't employees from using Huawei devices && the US carriers dropping their devices, has very little to do with the lack of development... I'm not a fan of the current US prez, nor politics ~ but you can't really blame them, when Huawei controls whether or not you can unlock your bootloader ~ it's Huawei's policy, not the US gov't's policy...
and it's huawei's own fault that they're getting bad press.

Google and your information
But you trust pixel?

kolembo said:
But you trust pixel?
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Google operates with far more transparency, than huawei... no contest.
A very large part of google's development happens out in the open, their devices are more secure, their code quality is to a much higher standard... like I said; Huawei's code is by far the worst kernel code that I've ever seen... Google actually takes security seriously, Huawei does not (or they should be shipping quality code, distributing their sources in a non-sketchy way, their kernel would be more reasonably up-to-date, they would operate with more transparency, etc.)...
Does Google collect a lot of data? yes. (most tech companies and gov't do).
Do I think they should be, no ~ as I believe that in general, people need better protections in their online / digital lives. Many rights that people have ''in the real world'', we don't have online ~ that's a problem.... But it's also improving to some extent...
At the end of the day; If I have to pick between google's approach and Huawei's approach ~ google is much better... Regardless, the majority of android devices shipping, will have GAPPs installed; which means the P20 Pro that I bought wouldn't be sharing any less info with google than any other device does ~ Pixels don't have a bunch of magical extra code designed to shovel more data to google, if that what you are thinking...

This guy for real? You want optimized kernels, and all that crap go to iOS but don't slander a device without a ounce of knowledge. Huawei have great customer service representatives Maybe you spoke to one that wasn't very intellectual (every company has them) try speaking to there representatives on Facebook/Twitter they are much better on there

TheDevGuy9497 said:
This guy for real? You want optimized kernels, and all that crap go to iOS but don't slander a device without a ounce of knowledge. Huawei have great customer service representatives Maybe you spoke to one that wasn't very intellectual (every company has them) try speaking to there representatives on Facebook/Twitter they are much better on there
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It's not slander, when it's true.
I've talked to several of their reps and support staff (on 3 separate occasions.). They may very will be better in a public facing forum, but the fact that on multiple non-public interactions; where they didn't have to be worried about PR => they were pure crap to deal with.... I would hardly call that "great customer support".... it sounds like you think "saving-face" = great customer support. (it isn't)... Also, great customer support involves being knowledgeable about the products and services.... Look at your own thread title; "The lack of knowledge is concerning" from September;
https://forum.xda-developers.com/hu...concerning-t3847975/post77741568#post77741568 ... you can't have it both ways.
I'm correct about the issues that I pointed out, in particular with the kernel code.... You may not like it, but that's your problem, not mine... And no, I don't need to go to iOS to have an optimized kernel or have a device that can provide low latency for audio for applications that need it... Other decent devices manage it just fine in android-land...
A good android/linux kernel that has good coding styles / following standards, where compiler warnings are actually taken seriously, fixed properly and where the code can be can be audited, etc ~ These are reasonable expectations one should have out of ANY android vendor. While no one is perfect and you can knit pick any of the vendor's code -> The P20 Pro's kernel, as I said; is literally the worst kernel source code that I've seen in my life... It's worse than any QC/msm kernel that I've ever seen, worse than any of samsung's kernel code, etc.. (you don't believe me??? download the CLT's kernel sources, breakout your cross compiler, enable some extra warnings and actually look through the god damn code yourself! (Does that sound good to "TheDevGuy"???).... then come back and talk to me.
I've spent several days (hours and hours) now going through it, looking at what Huawei is actually doing in the kernel with livepatch, OASES and how some of their specific features work, poking through driver code, etc, etc (i do this with all vendor code for devices that I own)....
Out of curiosity, How much time have you spent???
I'm guessing it's actually you that is " without a ounce of knowledge" and you're just triggered because you didn't like what I had to say.

There are some valid points, and i am aware of p20 pro flaws but do we really need a separate thread for every personal rant?

forever_lol said:
There are some valid points, and i am aware of p20 pro flaws but do we really need a separate thread for every personal rant?
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Click to collapse
hey, i get what you're driving at, but when researching the device - i couldn't find a lot of the info that i was after and i don't think some of what I've touched on has been discussed here.... i know a few people are upset or don't like what I've said, but at the same time - i hope they can appreciate where i'm coming from, that I've actually went way out of me way and spent a lot of my free time, digging through the kernel sources...
there is also still a possibility that i may get stuck with this phone, if my carrier screws me around or has changed their policy - and if that does happen; i can pretty much promise that XDA community for this device are going to benefit;
- I've rebased their kernel on a proper git tree, with all mainline commit history, intact.
- I'm in the process of fixing all of the immediate GCC warnings and some other code issues.
- I'll get it compiling with the latest GCC (possibly clang too).
- I'm figuring out how all of huawei's features work
- i have experience porting/backporting kernel features.
- I'm experienced / know my way around the Linux kernel, having been hacking on it since long before XDA or android existed.
i don't really see much kernel development going on for this device, so who knows; even if i end up exchanging the phone, i still may end up cleaning up the sources and publishing them for other people to use (who may be comfortable using git / cherry-picking, etc - but may have difficulty getting huawei's somewhat broken source code to compile, ootb...

Who would have thought Huawei spies on its users? Geezas. Nobody.
It's not like they have done before.
Wait..
They have.
And bad software? Well, that's Huawei's middle name.

FluFlu said:
No idea what they are talking about 3rd part launchers work just fine. It's just less obvious how to change them vs. stock android... but I had Apex launcher installed 15 minutes after turning on the device, wasn't hard to figure out.
the lack of unlocked bootloader is problematic, beyond just having root ~ once huawei stops pushing updates, if you still own the phone; no way to service or update it.... and for me, I actually like to audit my devices and know what's going on inside of them (and that's why I spend days going through their kernel source code too) ~ pretty hard to audit anything on the device though, without unlocked bootloader + root.
I do agree though, there is lots of stuff baked into the rom, so customization OOTB is pretty good...and i do like that...
On the other hand though, I like having AdAway, AFWall and other root apps.... and at least one of the issues that I mentioned; the audio latency problem ~ I could probably fix if I was rooted... I'm actually pretty shocked that huawei software engineers think that high latency is somehow acceptable....
the latency makes playing instruments on my phone impossible ~ latency has to be low, the sound must play as I touch the notes ~ but instead, there is an extremely long delay / completely unusable. The latency is worse than most early / very old android devices...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
erm I think you will find that in Huawei's latest firmware updates they have disabled custom launchers, you can install them but when you pick them as your default launcher you will get an error message and it crashes, there's a thread on here about it.

neflictus said:
Who would have thought Huawei spies on its users? Geezas. Nobody.
It's not like they have done before.
Wait..
They have.
And bad software? Well, that's Huawei's middle name.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
that's some high-level cynicism, right there.... coupled with apathy.
I've never personally dealt with Huawei directly, nor peaked at any of their code (until very recently... and I doubt that I am the only person in this situation), so it shouldn't be surprising that I've chosen to comment about it. (for others who may not be aware).
with you having such disdain and having previous experience with huawei - why did you even buy the phone?
just curious.

You talk so much... I didn't even bother reading all what you said. Given that your frustration isn't about the phone itself but Huawei as a company, why did you buy the phone in the first place?