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I’ve, in all Windows Mobile forums, very often posted on the fact that Lithium-Ion / Polymer batteries should always be recharged whenever possible. That is, you should put your handheld / handset on the charger whenever possible. NEVER EVER wait before the handheld shuts down because even after only 4 months, your battery will only hold about a third (!) of its original charge holding capacity and, as opposed to what several people say, putting the device on the charger only once a day (or two-three days with devices with better battery life – mostly, TI OMAP-based handsets) on a regular basis (not waiting for the battery to completely deplete) will also have an adverse effect on the battery life.
Now, Groucho's pretty cool Nokia N95 blog has published a remarkable article, which is of extreme interest to anyone having a device with a Lithium Ion or Polymer-based rechargeable battery (not only Nokia N95 users – again, this info applies to ALL current Windows Mobile handsets, and a lot more other gadgets like digital cameras etc.). The figures he shows certainly prove I’ve been right when I recommended recharging your device whenever possible.
Groucho has purchased three N95’s (again and again, don’t think this discussion only applies to the N95 – it does apply to ANY device out there!) at the same time and used them in a pretty similar way. He, however, made absolutely sure he charged the device in three consistent (not mixing up the devices) and radically different ways: the first was charged only once a day (every night), not during the day; the second was charged when it has completely shut down because of the battery’s going flat and the third was almost always on charger whenever possible. The difference in the battery capacity, based on the different ways of recharging, turned out to be astonishing: the second battery (which was always let go flat, and only after that was it put on a charger) could only hold slightly more than a third of the battery that was always on charger whenever possible. The latter battery, in addition, fared considerably (about 16%) better than the battery only regularly (every night) recharged.
Note that the blog post has a mistake (which has no effect on the credibility of the results): it states they will have exactly the same charge holding capabilities throughout their life, and, suddenly, they die (“They have a finite shelf life which starts from the day they are manufactured and their condition from then degrades to the point where they fail! This is not to be confused with their charge holding abilities which are very good for their full life! When they go they just go!”). This is, of course, incorrect: their capacity will degrade over time. Just an example: my HP iPAQ 2210, which I bought right after it was released in Europe, at first, shut down at 2-3% battery level. After about two years, this raised to about 20% and, after three years, this was already around 35-38%. This also shows – along with a multitude of other examples – that these batteries do lose capacity over time. Also note that, as I’ve also recommended several times, Battery University has a decent article on all these questions – except for, of course, real-world results like the above.
Verdict: ignore if somebody says the opposite. Recharge your handheld whenever possible.
Menneisyys said:
I’ve, in all Windows Mobile forums, very often posted on the fact that Lithium-Ion / Polymer batteries should always be recharged whenever possible. That is, you should put your handheld / handset on the charger whenever possible. NEVER EVER wait before the handheld shuts down because even after only 4 months, your battery will only hold about a third (!) of its original charge holding capacity and, as opposed to what several people say, putting the device on the charger only once a day (or two-three days with devices with better battery life – mostly, TI OMAP-based handsets) on a regular basis (not waiting for the battery to completely deplete) will also have an adverse effect on the battery life.
Now, Groucho's pretty cool Nokia N95 blog has published a remarkable article, which is of extreme interest to anyone having a device with a Lithium Ion or Polymer-based rechargeable battery (not only Nokia N95 users – again, this info applies to ALL current Windows Mobile handsets, and a lot more other gadgets like digital cameras etc.). The figures he shows certainly prove I’ve been right when I recommended recharging your device whenever possible.
Groucho has purchased three N95’s (again and again, don’t think this discussion only applies to the N95 – it does apply to ANY device out there!) at the same time and used them in a pretty similar way. He, however, made absolutely sure he charged the device in three consistent (not mixing up the devices) and radically different ways: the first was charged only once a day (every night), not during the day; the second was charged when it has completely shut down because of the battery’s going flat and the third was almost always on charger whenever possible. The difference in the battery capacity, based on the different ways of recharging, turned out to be astonishing: the second battery (which was always let go flat, and only after that was it put on a charger) could only hold slightly more than a third of the battery that was always on charger whenever possible. The latter battery, in addition, fared considerably (about 16%) better than the battery only regularly (every night) recharged.
Note that the blog post has a mistake (which has no effect on the credibility of the results): it states they will have exactly the same charge holding capabilities throughout their life, and, suddenly, they die (“They have a finite shelf life which starts from the day they are manufactured and their condition from then degrades to the point where they fail! This is not to be confused with their charge holding abilities which are very good for their full life! When they go they just go!”). This is, of course, incorrect: their capacity will degrade over time. Just an example: my HP iPAQ 2210, which I bought right after it was released in Europe, at first, shut down at 2-3% battery level. After about two years, this raised to about 20% and, after three years, this was already around 35-38%. This also shows – along with a multitude of other examples – that these batteries do lose capacity over time. Also note that, as I’ve also recommended several times, Battery University has a decent article on all these questions – except for, of course, real-world results like the above.
Verdict: ignore if somebody says the opposite. Recharge your handheld whenever possible.
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An excellent post and very valuable info.It'll certainly help out many,who believe that the batteries shud only be charged once a day or when it's almost finished or going flat,by this the life of the batteries is saved and prolonged as against to charging whenever possible or more than once in a day,this concept is believed as charging more than one time will create a new charging point every time and will not fully charge the battery,thus,will impact the charge retaining capabilities of the battery and ultimately die out soon.
You are absolutely correct in saying that "This is, of course, incorrect: their capacity will degrade over time."and "that these batteries do lose capacity over time",Of course,they have a finite life cycle from the day they are manufactured,infact every gadget,machinery,electric appliances,PCs,Tvs and all everyday utilities have a life cycle and will die out with passage of time and longer use.
It has been observed in this and many other forums,people posting that their devices have gone dead due to battery going flat as they forgot to charge it. Than it becomes a pain in the A** to get it recharged again and get the phone alive again, Therefore,to avoid this dreadful scenario,it is always better to get the battery charged whenever possible,CUZ IT'S GONNA DIE OUT SOMEDAY,for sure,whether you charge it once a day or when it's gone flat or charge it whenever possible,but definitely save yourself from the horrible situation of getting a dead phone,due to a flat battery and frustrating ways to get it charged again.
Just to mention here,it's my personal experience, as I myself got into this situation once,while in a hurry and urgency,I forgot to get the battery charged and didn't realize it was almost going flat,after a couple of hours,suddenly the phone went dead,I wanted to make some very important calls,but there was no way I cud get the phone Power On,frantically started to look for ways to get it charged as I didn't have the charger with me,I tried to get it charged through usb connection with the Pc,but NO GO,it never started charging and there were no lights on the phone,In short I tried in many ways to get it charged and phone started.
Even,when I got back home,tried it with the Wall charger,it refused to charge,I got horrified.took it to a service shop.They said that while my trying to get it charge through various methods and again n again trying to wake the phone,the Pulse of the battery has gone down from the level,which it requires to communicate with the phone and start charging,Ultimately,it has to be Jump Started to get it working,therefore,I made a rule of my everyday working to get it charged a couple of times during the day,Now I have never to fear and face that dreadful situation again,And let me point out here that I have not seen any degration in the charging or performance of the battery so far as I'm doing this since last six months or so.
Thank you for confirming my believes in charging for more than once is advisable and will not effect much on the battery charge retention and life cycle
Cheer
Good writing ! I didn't know that it affected the battery that much! Thanks!
You are correct in saying that only charging a device when it has run down to 0% (or close) is bad for Lithium Ion batteries. That incorrect advice is left over from the Nickel Cadmium (Ni-Cd) era, when it worked on batteries with that chemistry to prolong their life due to the "memory effect".
But I don't think saying that Li-Ion batteries should be charged "as often as possible" is quite right, because keeping them at or near 100% charge WILL shorten their life, just like keeping them at or near 0% will (but not as much admittedly).
If you want to maximize the life of your Li-Ion batteries, you should make sure that they don't get any hotter than 25 degrees celcius (77F), and you should try to keep them in a state of 40% to 60% charge as much as possible (that means take it out of the charger without letting it get to 100%!).
Of course keeping it between 40% and 60% only lets you use 20% of the battery's full capacity, which is not convenient at all! So the next best thing is to charge it to 100%, then recharge it when it gets down to 40%.
Letting it get below 40% is the most damaging, but constantly keeping it above 60% charge is also damaging in the long term.
One last tip: Li-Ion batteries last longer the slower you charge them. So charge them with USB from the computer rather than an AC mains adapter, as this is usually the slower method (USB from a computer contains 0.5 Amps of current, whereas many AC chargers supply 1.0 to 1.5 Amps, even though they may have a "USB" connector).
Everything above can be backed up by various sources, here is a very good one: http://www.batteryuniversity.com/parttwo-34.htm
Interesting you mention charging at different amperes. There are quite a few quick-charge standard battery charges around the place that always state they will boost the battery up to 80% quite fast then the remainder takes a further few hours. This also usually causes the batteries to become excessively hot.
The 110/230 Volt mains charger that came with my Trinity charges really fast but definitely heats it to over 25°C. However the mains to miniUSB charger that came with my cradle, and the one that came with my BT headset both charge at a much slower (and cooler) rate, likely to be 0.5 Amps. I checked out the labels and they all indicate the same ratings. I know, I should chuck the multimeter on them to test…
Maybe I’ll go back to using the cradle mains charger when I’m at home and my PC isn’t on (as if that ever happens)
sl9 said:
But I don't think saying that Li-Ion batteries should be charged "as often as possible" is quite right, because keeping them at or near 100% charge WILL shorten their life, just like keeping them at or near 0% will (but not as much admittedly).
If you want to maximize the life of your Li-Ion batteries, you should make sure that they don't get any hotter than 25 degrees celcius (77F), and you should try to keep them in a state of 40% to 60% charge as much as possible (that means take it out of the charger without letting it get to 100%!).
Of course keeping it between 40% and 60% only lets you use 20% of the battery's full capacity, which is not convenient at all! So the next best thing is to charge it to 100%, then recharge it when it gets down to 40%.
Letting it get below 40% is the most damaging, but constantly keeping it above 60% charge is also damaging in the long term.
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Yup, 60% is the best usage scenario. However,
1. it does have a severe problem: the reduced battery life (60% vs. 100%), which may render its usage problematic in some cases (when you do need the remaining 40%). That is, it's only really usable when you are absolutely sure you can recharge your device when it's still, say, abouve 30%, leaving you an about 30% usability area.
2. the advantage of keeping teh battery around 60% (as opposed to 100%), battery capacity saving-wise, isn't so prevalent than recharging the battery whenever possible. That is, while keeping the battery at around 60% does result in better charge holding after X time, it's net effect is still much lower than, say, letting the battery go flat. As can be seen in the linked report, you can almost completely kill (leaving about 40% of the original charge holding capability) a Li-Ion battery in no more than four months. The 60% rule (as opposed to the 100% one) has far less (albeit, of course, considerable) advantages - on the long run.
BTW, I do the following: I keep my spare batteries I requently (say, in general, once a week or two weeks) use at around 70-80% (it's, being halfway between 60% and 100%, a tradeoff) and batteries I don't use at all (for example, my old Casio Cassiopeia batteries) at 40%.
There is some really interesting discussion of this article at MoDaCo, HowardForums, FirstLoox, PPCT, XDA-Developers - well worth checking out for more info / discussion.
sl9 said:
One last tip: Li-Ion batteries last longer the slower you charge them. So charge them with USB from the computer rather than an AC mains adapter, as this is usually the slower method (USB from a computer contains 0.5 Amps of current, whereas many AC chargers supply 1.0 to 1.5 Amps, even though they may have a "USB" connector).
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A quick note: if you know your power source is only capable of providing, say, 0.5A's, you might want to make absolutely sure its voltage doesn't drop under, say, 4.5 Volts at 0.5A. A lot of power sources (this is perfectly natural with all kinds of power transformators) do this; then, the batteries / the phone's electronics starts to struggle with providing the necessay charging voltage (IIRC, 4.2 Volts).
Also, the permanent damage of (or caused by) these chargers can also be a problem - I don't think a cheapo notebook has decent voltage stabilizators. An expensive IBM / Lenovo Thinkpad will never cause any problem to a USB device (they have VERY good USB protection - I've myself found this out with my a31p once, when I, accidentally, made a short circuit on the USB). A cheapo notebook is likely to use the cheapest (read: parts that not necessarily can stand even 0.5 Ampers) parts.
I have a laptop and a phone, both using original batteries and both around 4 years old now. The laptop is a dell with a 7 aH Li-Ion battery and the phone is a Nokia 6310i with a factory Li-Polymer battery. As I said, original standard batteries that came in the original package. Both have only been used with company standard chargers - no quick force-feed cradles here.
If I start with the phone, it is one of the best I ever had. I don't make many calls on this phone, mainly text messages, and it spends the most of it's time just idling. At night I usually turn it off, sometimes I use the temporary profile option with tone/vibration off, as I sleep better knowing the phone will not wake me up. I had a collegue who bought the same type of phone as me, and we treated it way different. First of all, he used it a lot more. Second of all, the charger went in and out quite often, and he often used the phone while it was charging. I have consistently only charged this phone to 100%, usually overnight. Sometimes charging it when it was quite low, but most of the time after about a week. This phone last two weeks on standby (if used during daytime only), and after 4 years ... it still does! It was the first triband Nokia made (to my knowledge), and I got one of the first ones in stead of getting the third Ericsson T39m in the same year (kept failing!). My collegues phone did not even last a day on a full charge, in LESS THAN HALF A YEAR. Now, four years after, my phone still last me two weeks with the minor use I demand of it.
Most notable habits for handling the phone/battery:
Very seldom used during recharging
Almost always charged uninterrupted to 100% - in off position or without using it
Not so heavy use
My collegue on the other hand interrupted the charge before reaching 100%, used it while on the charger and his battery died down to almost no capacity sooooo fast.
As for my Laptop, it is a Dell Inspiron 8600, and after 4 years, it still runs almost two hours on the original battery, using internet, wireless and bluetooth simultaneously and not going into any kind of power save.
Below is the way I have generally used it:
I have seldom removed the battery while on mains, as I find it difficult and also enjoy the safety of the battery being there if I pull the chord, power outtage etc. Contrary to my phone, I use my laptop A LOT, like, daily, for many hours usually, sometimes all day. It is mainly work related, reading/writing documents, some graphic work and so on. Not so much watching movies, but sometimes certain programs like OCR or other runs keep the CPU to 100% for a while. I mainly keep the battery in and charged, and unless the ambient temperature is high or I sit with the laptop on top of my lap where my body heat heats the battery, I have not found the battery to heat up much. Even when the fan is going 100% on a heavy load, the battery temp seems OK. For various practical reasons, I have more often recently used my laptop on battery until just before it cuts out by itself. I must say I did not check if that makes the battery hot, but after 4 years, I still get almost two hours of use with wireless and bluetooth enabled. I have friends and collegues who replace the battery after one or two years, because it is down to almost nothing in capacity.
Any battery powered device I have had in the last 5 years or so I have been treating with these golden rules, and none of them have had to have batteries changed so far ...
Do not interrupt battery until it is done charging (unless on trickle charge, obviously)
Charge any time you like, as long as you obey the rule above
Do not place a heavy load on the device while it is charging after having been run on batteries (again, trickle charge is OK while on mains)
A good way to accomplish these rules is to have a habit of charging devices before you sleep, even before being worn down (charging not so likely to be interupted by sudden change of plans).
Having run my laptop for thousands of hours with battery inside and connected to mains, for me after 4 years it has not killed my battery.
This is not scientific research, but for me, it has worked for all my devices - for whatever reason. Those who complain their batteries die quickly seem to be the ones who pulls the charger whenever they want.
Although lithium batteries are somewhat different than the way humans store and use their energy, it seems to me there are some similarities:
Does not like it too hot or too cold
If not allowed to eat/charge fully on a regular basis, charging more often is necessary.
Can get annoyed if suddenly disrupted during feeding/charging.
If force fed, less energy can be taken up compared to a slow and easy feed.
This is not meant as proof, as in "because humans are like this, so are batteries", but to me, it just seems coincidental that there are some similarities. Me, personally, I eat one to three times a day. Yes, I can do with one meal a day, but two meals a day I think are optimum for me. Consistently eating 3 or more times a day makes my weight go up, I have been over 200 pounds for my 6'3" after being in a job for a year where I "was fed" too often. Now, I am fit and healthy at around 170 lbs, I seldom have headaches or fatigue, and I have an endurance like not many others! Without "charging" I can last a long time. Give me a good evening meal, and the next morning I can run a half marathon with no breakfast, just water.
Conclusion: Let the facts of real life be your proof instead of going after experts opinion. Let's have more experiments to find the real truth!
1, you're pretty fortunate your notebook battery is still going strong. I've never seen a notebook battery SO good - the situation you've described doesn't even seem to adhere to the laws of chemistry (that is, after two years, a Li-Ion battery kept consistently at 100% charging level is bound to lose at least 20% of its original capacity, independent of the usage).
2, the human vs. battery comparison, IMHO, isn't the best. Most feeding / intake specalists state one should prefer the way of "eat many times a day, but little each time" - that is, say, some 4-5 apples, tomatoes, cucumbers etc. a day, say, one (or two) every hour - at least this is what I do at work. I also refrain from eating a lot at lunchtime - I, generally, eat a quarter portion, and take the rest with me, continuously eating it later say, a bit every hours. This surely won't result in getting fat - on the contrary. If, of course, you don't keep your stomach at 100% load level
nice tip on eating...
I wrote specifically that it was not proof or anything, it just seems that some things are similar. My laptop batter has probably lost a little, but the way I have treated it, it still works after 4 years, where collegues/friends a long time ago would have had to get new batteries. I did not make specific measurements, but maybe a new battery would last me around 2.5 hours instead of two, but I have seen batteries that last 5 minutes, and they are less than 2 years old.
So what is a "good way" to kill a battery fast? I thought that stopping charging before 100% is one of the ways to kill a battery, but as soon as I see a test where it is proved that it is the other way around, I'd be happy not to have to wait for 100% before pulling the plug. But the mentioned Nokia test is only varying on when to start the recharging, not when to end it.
As for the comparison to humans ... I know they say you should eat many small meals a day, and that is great if you measure your meals precisely in calories and content. But for a normal, daily unscientific diet, many of those people I hear reiterate the "eat many but small meals to loose weight" have them selves ... weight problems. I have proven that it works (for me), I can see my weight increase when I get into periods of eating 3 or more meals a day. Same with my batteries. I can see they last a long time, where other peoples batteries die - so ... why does it work then?
I know this is kind of an old post (hah) but just an update about Li-Ion batteries:
The final 5-10% of charging is the part that does the most "wear and tear" of the whole charge process, this is the reason IBM (now Lenovo) Thinkpads don't charge the final bit all the time. So avoid *topping off* when charging. If done within the normal charging it shouldn't be a problem.
Simple Guidelines (taken from: http://www.batteryuniversity.com/parttwo-34.htm)
* Avoid frequent full discharges because this puts additional strain on the battery. Several partial discharges with frequent recharges are better for lithium-ion than one deep one. Recharging a partially charged lithium-ion does not cause harm because there is no memory. (In this respect, lithium-ion differs from nickel-based batteries.) Short battery life in a laptop is mainly cause by heat rather than charge / discharge patterns.
* Batteries with fuel gauge (laptops) should be calibrated by applying a deliberate full discharge once every 30 charges. Running the pack down in the equipment does this. If ignored, the fuel gauge will become increasingly less accurate and in some cases cut off the device prematurely.
* Keep the lithium-ion battery cool. Avoid a hot car. For prolonged storage, keep the battery at a 40% charge level.
* Consider removing the battery from a laptop when running on fixed power. (Some laptop manufacturers are concerned about dust and moisture accumulating inside the battery casing.)
* Avoid purchasing spare lithium-ion batteries for later use. Observe manufacturing dates. Do not buy old stock, even if sold at clearance prices.
* If you have a spare lithium-ion battery, use one to the fullest and keep the other cool by placing it in the refrigerator. Do not freeze the battery. For best results, store the battery at 40% state-of-charge.
does that mean if you have two batteries, you should only use one most of the time and keep the other one in storage?
I would have thought it would be better to alternate between the two every week or something. Nothing worse than having the battery in storage for a few months and then when you actually need it on a trip you find that it only has 50% capacity
Actually the article says that you should "store" batteries at 40% if you're keeping one as a backup, I think the best option would be to alternate them. Keeping one stored at 100% actually causes it to lose its charge FASTER than one stored at 40%
FYI : as you are charging/discharging your battery, the hysteresis threshold (this is called like this in electronic) is decreasing, when it's new it still at 100% then 99%,98%,97% etc
This is the reason why sometimes when you think your battery is fully loaded, his load stops at the hysteresis threshold.
In some case it's possible to raise this hysteresis threshold (when the battery is recent). and to retrieve the full charge.
Here is a tips that I use since some years (my ipaq 3660)
When your device show your battery 100% loaded (of course it's not) the LED light should go off. if you unplug your power AC, and plug it back, and if you notice that your device is loading a few seconds (3-5 sec) then you are raising the hysteresis threshold. of course not to 100%, but a little.
now, put a dvd movie, sit down, and repeat the tips as much as the light doesn't show the device is charging a few seconds. I mean is your battery is full loaded then when you plug back the power ac it should not charge again. so your hysteresis threshold is probably at 100% and your battery should work has a new one.
sorry if my english isn't good enough for this contrib.
Hello!
Does the phone or battery itself has over charge protection?
Is it safe leave the phone connected to a computer/charger all the time?
I've been using HTC Hermes for 2 years and already replaced 3 batteries, not sure if it was due to phone was connected to a charger for at least 12 hours a day or something else..
Thank you.
technically it should'nt be an issue. the phone can detect when its battery is full and can set itself to trickle charge (atleast that's what i've been told). You do want to atleast have it drain itself full once a month or have it off the power line ever so often to keep the energy moving otherwise it goes stagnant. (not exactly stagnant, but you know what i mean.. right?)
Draining battery is not a problem, the phone does a good job doing just that
With all the technology one could assume that an advanced phone like this would have a overcharge protection. But wanted make sure that it does.
[email protected] said:
With all the technology one could assume that an advanced phone like this would have a overcharge protection. But wanted make sure that it does.
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No convinced it does myself. All the add-on chargers, cradles, etc. highlight having overcharge protection if they're any good. So perhaps it (overcharge protection) is a functionality of the charger and not the phone itself?
I know that when my phone is charging (battery not 100%) it's cool to touch, but when on charge (USB cable from PC, sync active) when the battery is full it's mildly warm to touch. Perhaps suggesting that incoming un-needed power is being converted into heat for dissipation?
To me, I think the phone probably has overcharge protection (whether it be the charging source, or teh phone itself by heat dissipation), but if your constantly leaving it on charge then perhaps the constant warmth is what's reducing your battery life?
Most charging control electronics is inside the phone, with some parts
inside the battery, like overheating protection and battery cell diagnostics.
Charging control checks the voltage rise during charging (actually difference
beetwen voltage before charging pulse and after that, so called delta voltage),
and when it reaches certain threshold, a charging unit switches to trickle
charging, which means "charging" with 1/10 or less of normal charging current,
amount which cannot cause perceivable warming. Most of warming happens
on final stage of normal charging, when battery is almost full, and its charge
accumulation efficiency drops, but is still being charged with the same current,
part of which, that cannot be accumulated, is dissipated as heat.
Heat dissipation
That heat dissipation is what has always concerned me. So I have bought extra batteries and external charges. I use the TP for business and some days out of the office a lot. Not unusual to go to two, occasionally three batteries in a day. That issue is my only "complaint" about this phone.
So I picked up a Nexus 5, and I like it, but being that it has a sealed battery I'm a little OCD over prolonging the life of it. After doing some digging, I have come up with the following tips to follow (and some of these are common sense with regards to a lithium battery):
Don't let your battery dip below 20% often
NEVER let it die completely (unless you have to calibrate your phones battery readings)
Charging to 100% isn't the best for it, and especially don't let it sit at 100% due to heat issues
Don't charge it in subfreezing temperatures, or especially in 100+ degree weather
Generally speaking, small charges spaced out (adding 15-30% or so at a time) is better than ~75% at a time due to heat issues
Very, very small charges done in rapid succession (adding 5-10% - A.K.A. "bump charging"), is bad
Qi supposedly heats the battery too much
OK, so that's what I've established in doing some research... Anyone disagree with this?
So generally speaking, what I should do to maintain maximum battery health is use my phone from 90% back down to 20% (and back up to 90%) regularly, correct? Obviously this is in a perfect scenario, but it's good to know.
Well I had a few side questions of my own:
If you get a quality Qi charger that runs (acceptably) cool, will it still be too hot to use day in and day out for optimum battery health?
If you do shorter charges on Qi (say 15-30% as mentioned above), would that be OK at that point?
What if I want to go use my phone heavily (lets say play a game for an hour), is it less stress on the battery to use it while on the charger (and get hot), or just let the battery cycle on it's own and charge it multiple times in the process? Basically, does using the phone while plugged in (whether charging, or trickle-charging at 100%) cause more degradation than cycling the battery multiple times?
Is letting your phone off the charger at night (cycling the battery, even if just a little bit) really better than leaving your phone plugged in at 100%?
This is an interesting topic to debate, and I want to hear what you think!
rytymu said:
So I picked up a Nexus 5, and I like it, but being that it has a sealed battery I'm a little OCD over prolonging the life of it. After doing some digging, I have come up with the following tips to follow (and some of these are common sense with regards to a lithium battery):
Don't let your battery dip below 20% often
NEVER let it die completely (unless you have to calibrate your phones battery readings)
Charging to 100% isn't the best for it, and especially don't let it sit at 100% due to heat issues
Don't charge it in subfreezing temperatures, or especially in 100+ degree weather
Generally speaking, small charges spaced out (adding 15-30% or so at a time) is better than ~75% at a time due to heat issues
Very, very small charges done in rapid succession (adding 5-10% - A.K.A. "bump charging"), is bad
Qi supposedly heats the battery too much
OK, so that's what I've established in doing some research... Anyone disagree with this?
So generally speaking, what I should do to maintain maximum battery health is use my phone from 90% back down to 20% (and back up to 90%) regularly, correct? Obviously this is in a perfect scenario, but it's good to know.
Well I had a few side questions of my own:
If you get a quality Qi charger that runs (acceptably) cool, will it still be too hot to use day in and day out for optimum battery health?
If you do shorter charges on Qi (say 15-30% as mentioned above), would that be OK at that point?
What if I want to go use my phone heavily (lets say play a game for an hour), is it less stress on the battery to use it while on the charger (and get hot), or just let the battery cycle on it's own and charge it multiple times in the process? Basically, does using the phone while plugged in (whether charging, or trickle-charging at 100%) cause more degradation than cycling the battery multiple times?
Is letting your phone off the charger at night (cycling the battery, even if just a little bit) really better than leaving your phone plugged in at 100%?
This is an interesting topic to debate, and I want to hear what you think!
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First off, BUMP!
Second, here are some results I've had. While idling, the battery life is RIDICULOUSLY good, however, whenever the screen is on the battery is terrible... It's like a Toyota Prius with a V10 hybrid-drive; around town it is very efficient, but get on the highway and VROOOOOOOOM!
The phone was at 42% charge after two days. Granted, there was only 37 minutes of screen usage, but I did quite a bit of Bluetooth / Spotify streaming. Wifi was on and connected almost the entire time. I do notice that my idle drain goes from .2% to .6% lost per hour on wifi, to 1.5% to 3% lost per hour while on HSPA+ / LTE.
rytymu said:
So I picked up a Nexus 5, and I like it, but being that it has a sealed battery I'm a little OCD over prolonging the life of it. After doing some digging, I have come up with the following tips to follow (and some of these are common sense with regards to a lithium battery):
Don't let your battery dip below 20% often
NEVER let it die completely (unless you have to calibrate your phones battery readings)
Charging to 100% isn't the best for it, and especially don't let it sit at 100% due to heat issues
Don't charge it in subfreezing temperatures, or especially in 100+ degree weather
Generally speaking, small charges spaced out (adding 15-30% or so at a time) is better than ~75% at a time due to heat issues
Very, very small charges done in rapid succession (adding 5-10% - A.K.A. "bump charging"), is bad
Qi supposedly heats the battery too much
OK, so that's what I've established in doing some research... Anyone disagree with this?
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Most of those aren't really wrong, they're just massively over-exaggerated.
A. Heat only matters if you're getting the battery up to like, 50C often. Note that the phone will actually stop charging if it hits these temperatures.
B. Small charges don't really help or hurt.
C. Qi doesn't heat the battery itself that much.
Overall, you're overthinking it way too much. Just don't leave your phone on the car dash in the middle of the summer sun, don't leave it on the charger for an entire week without unplugging it, and try not to drain it completely to 0%.
Li-Polymer batteries are far more resilient than people give them credit for. Even if you used your phone absolutely perfectly, over the course of a couple years you'd be lucky to get an extra 5% of life out of it. It's not worth your time and stress at all.
Since there’s a fair amount of posts that note this, particularly with this charger, I figured I’d start a poll. If you have a TYLT Vu, have you run into the overheating issue/does your Nexus get uncomfortably hot while charging?
FWIW, I have two Vus and have not had this issue, at least not yet. While the phone does get warm, it’s not hot and I would consider this to be expected. I also happen to keep the phone in this case: http://www.maxboostpower.com/shop/m...stand-fits-all-versions-of-google-lg-nexus-5/.
UPDATE: While I have not yet tried this, an XDA member has some steps for reproducing the issue consistently, and subsequently how to potentially avoid it, at http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=49282197&postcount=119.
UPDATE: Lastly, we have acknowledgement from TYLT on the issue and how to work around it—maybe they’ll become a responsible company one day and actually fix the problem one. From http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=49467213&postcount=157:
Hi ****,
Thank you for contacting TYLT customer support. We actually found a solution for this issue, when you place your phone on the VU put the bottom part of the phone onto the base of the VU at an angle so the screen is tilted towards the ground a bit then put the back part of the phone onto the VU. This way the middle coil will be activated which is a perfect match for the coil inside your phone.
Please let me know if this solves the issue.
Thank you!
Thanks,
--
Richard Sumian
Customer Care Specialist
tel: 800.843.5600x129 email: [email protected]
web: http://www.tylt.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2014 9:09 AM
Subject: TYLT | Contact
***** submitted a contact form:
Name:
Email: *****@gmail.com
Message:
My tylt charger is causing my Nexus 5 to overheat. It gets above 50 degrees when I charge in portrait mode. I have read in forums that your company is working on a fix. I just want to be put on the list to have mine replaced once it has been addressed.
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Cheers.
I haven't had the issue with mine.
I've had one of these for just over a month and I leave my phone in it to charge every night. I also use it regularly as a stand when I'm at my desk.
The phone does get warm while charging, but no warmer than it did when plugged into the stock charger.
It takes about 3 hours for my phone to charge from <10% to 100% (about 30%/h).
How to you define overheating? I have two TYLT and the N5 tends to get warmer by a few °C compared to other Qi chargers. However, it depends very much on the actual battery status (SOC, temperature) prior to starting a charge.
I have also noticed that turning off Day Dream reduces temperature rise during wireless charging by about 3-5 °C in average.
stbxxl said:
How to you define overheating? I have two TYLT and the N5 tends to get warmer by a few °C compared to other Qi chargers. However, it depends very much on the actual battery status (SOC, temperature) prior to starting a charge.
I have also noticed that turning off Day Dream reduces temperature rise during wireless charging by about 3-5 °C in average.
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I’d guess I’d simply describe is as uncomfortably hot. While I haven’t experienced the issue myself, the people who have tend to describe it this way. I’ll make the OP a little clearer.
I have three wireless chargers, the Nexus charger, Tylt Vu and an older WPC-700. Same issue with all three, sometimes they're slightly warm, other times they're hot. No rhyme or reason as far as I can tell.
Welp, add me to the list. Just pulled my N5 off the tylt and the back near the camera was almost hot enough to burn me. Charge stopped at 85%. It's become pretty warm in the past, but nothing like this. Very alarming.
Can't help but wonder if it has something to do with the metal discs in the N5 and the multiple coils in the tylt... It's like putting a steel pan on an induction cook top.
No heat with mine. I leave my phone on it all the time. At least every night, sometimes during the day as well. It is never warmer than when charging with the standard USB charger. Same goes for my Nexus 7.
I have a one and I've noticed the N5 getting very hot but only if I leave the screen on and slightly hot during Day Dream so now I just make sure the screen is off and everything is okay.
I DEFINITELY feel it get warm... haven't noticed it coinciding with screen being on for periods of time, but my screen WAS on last time it got super hot...
Mine overheated once overnight. In the morning the N5 was so hot I couldn't hold it in my hands.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=2522361
My N5 has also gotten very hot numerous times, too hot in my opinion when using the tylt. Doesn't happen every time though. I've tried to determine if it has anything to do with placement, but have not been able to tell. I also have a Google Nexus wireless charger and the phone never gets hot when charging. I'm now trying the phone on it's side on the tylt and will see if it continues to overheat.
I had my Nexus 5 overheat once when I pulled my Nexus 4 off the charger and place my N5 on immediately after. Woke up in the morning and the phone was off and HOT. No issues since but I never charge one phone right after the other.
Sent from my Nexus 5 using XDA Premium 4 mobile app
Happened again! The back of my phone measured a little over 130F. Starting to think something has gone wrong with my VU. I've owned it for a month and haven't had a problem, now suddenly it's attempted to deep fry my poor N5 twice in the last week.
Emailed TYLT about this, but not confident I'll ever get a response. Seems like they've been ignoring emails lately.
My N5 overheated (to the point it stopped charging) every day on my Tylt for 4 days until I disabled Daydream, now it hasn't happened since.
That said, looking at Battery Monitor Widget tells me it's still charging too warm (40-46c) just not warm enough to trigger an overheat warning. Daydream probably just pushes it over the edge.
My guess is this is a fairly common problem with the Tylt and the N5 due to the metal disks the N5 has for magnetic alignment - something I'm not aware of many, if any, other Qi compatible phones possessing. The Tylt has 3 coils and a 1amp charger which lets it charge faster than other Qi chargers but probably pushes the envelope in the process.
Could vary between models, I guess, but I wonder how many N5 users with Tylts who also use Daydream (or otherwise have the screen on when charging) have this issue?
Also I've read that charging in landscape helps - slightly more airflow around the back of the phone, and less of the metal disks come in contact with the coils I bet are the reasons.
PS: I have the stock Nexus Qi charger (the new one) on my dresser and a Nokia N910 at my office and have no problem with either of those - and temps stay in the 30c range. Both of those are also single-coil chargers powered by 500mA US and charge slower than the Tylt as a result.
Welp. Unfortunately, it looks like I can be added to the list of those who have been "burned" by the Tylt Vu. I've been using two different ones for about two weeks now with no issues at all. The hottest my N5 would ever get would be around 37C (but it would usually hover around 34-35C). I've been keeping an eye on the battery temp since reading all these horror stories of overheating. Tonight, it was charging fine when I picked my phone up to check a text and mess around for a couple minutes. When I put it back on, it was probably around 37-38C or so. I was sitting next to it and touched the screen to check the temp, and it felt REALLY hot (only about 5-10 minutes after setting the phone back down to charge). So I took it off and the battery temp was showing 49.5C with "health" saying "overheating". I always make sure the screen is turned off after putting it on the charger, so I know it wasn't in daydream or anything. Kinda freaked me out. I love these chargers, but my faith in leaving them unattended while charging is now shaky at best.
ixian said:
My N5 overheated (to the point it stopped charging) every day on my Tylt for 4 days until I disabled Daydream, now it hasn't happened since.
That said, looking at Battery Monitor Widget tells me it's still charging too warm (40-46c) just not warm enough to trigger an overheat warning. Daydream probably just pushes it over the edge.
My guess is this is a fairly common problem with the Tylt and the N5 due to the metal disks the N5 has for magnetic alignment - something I'm not aware of many, if any, other Qi compatible phones possessing. The Tylt has 3 coils and a 1amp charger which lets it charge faster than other Qi chargers but probably pushes the envelope in the process.
Could vary between models, I guess, but I wonder how many N5 users with Tylts who also use Daydream (or otherwise have the screen on when charging) have this issue?
Also I've read that charging in landscape helps - slightly more airflow around the back of the phone, and less of the metal disks come in contact with the coils I bet are the reasons.
PS: I have the stock Nexus Qi charger (the new one) on my dresser and a Nokia N910 at my office and have no problem with either of those - and temps stay in the 30c range. Both of those are also single-coil chargers powered by 500mA US and charge slower than the Tylt as a result.
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I have a cheap Chinese QI charger for 21$ single coil its charging faster than the wall adapter AC i plugged it into a Asus Nexus 7 2Amp charger and it doesn't overheat at all i think this overheating has to do with the Tylt having 3 Coils instead of One
I've never used an app to look at internal temperatures. Do any of them have an alarm that would sound if the temperature went over a certain mark?
Mine was hot several times when an app was running in the background. Since then I've made sure that all apps and antennas/radios, and the screen is/are off. I have two vu. Same problem.
jasbur17 said:
I've never used an app to look at internal temperatures. Do any of them have an alarm that would sound if the temperature went over a certain mark?
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You can use tasker and have the phone ring on battery overheating condition but to my knowledge not a specific battery temp. It's kind of too late but at least the phone won't sit there and continue to cook.
---------- Post added at 08:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:26 PM ----------
charesa39 said:
Welp. Unfortunately, it looks like I can be added to the list of those who have been "burned" by the Tylt Vu. I've been using two different ones for about two weeks now with no issues at all. The hottest my N5 would ever get would be around 37C (but it would usually hover around 34-35C). I've been keeping an eye on the battery temp since reading all these horror stories of overheating. Tonight, it was charging fine when I picked my phone up to check a text and mess around for a couple minutes. When I put it back on, it was probably around 37-38C or so. I was sitting next to it and touched the screen to check the temp, and it felt REALLY hot (only about 5-10 minutes after setting the phone back down to charge). So I took it off and the battery temp was showing 49.5C with "health" saying "overheating". I always make sure the screen is turned off after putting it on the charger, so I know it wasn't in daydream or anything. Kinda freaked me out. I love these chargers, but my faith in leaving them unattended while charging is now shaky at best.
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The screen can be completely out when this happens. It runs a bit hotter during normal charging with Daydream but its definitely not the cause of the overheating condition.
---------- Post added at 08:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:29 PM ----------
BTW, for the record mine has overheated twice in excess of 132 F and stopped charging at around 70%
To power up, you consume Red Bull. But your phone just needs its adaptive fast charger. Rate this thread to express how quickly the OnePlus 6T can charge. A higher rating indicates that it charges extremely fast.
Then, drop a comment if you have anything to add!
dash charge (now called fast charge) is crazy fast!!
Still, I would only recommend using that feature if there is a real benefit - i.e. time is of the essence. The battery will age quicker being dash charged all the time.
saw 60 percent at 35 minutes and 38 seconds, which is more or less in line with what OnePlus claims
Incredibly fast compared to my old Honor 8. One example I have is the first charge I did 5 days ago when I had bought it at a pop-up event here in Sweden. I had used it for about 1-2 hours with the screen on when I was setting it up and trying out the phone. Then when I plugged it in, it went from 36% to 75% in just 24 minutes. That's insanely fast
I've also noticed that just like OnePlus claims, the phone basically charges at the same speed with the screen on as if I would have had the screen off.
Bäcker said:
Still, I would only recommend using that feature if there is a real benefit - i.e. time is of the essence. The battery will age quicker being dash charged all the time.
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Can you provide any factual basis for this statement? Research or articles from established professionals in the field of battery charging?
Everything I've read from reliable sources state that the biggest impact on battery longevity is temperature. Repeated heating (or extreme cooling for that matter) will accelerate the "aging" process, as you put it. OnePlus has actually solved this problem by offloading the energy conversion that causes heat to the power brick, leaving the phone cool during charging (pretty ingenious). I've also read that not always charging the battery fully to 100% can prolong longevity, which is why you get charging strategies on laptops that will stop charging at 80% or 60% if you leave your laptop plugged in 24/7.
Point being, the ONLY way to slowly charge this device would be to use a third party charger and/or cable.
The reason I ask this, is that the manufacturer, OnePlus, clearly states in their documentation that comes with the phone or dash chargers to ONLY use the charger and cable that came with the phone.
Please charge the OnePlus Dash device only with the official Dash Power Adapter and Dash Type-C Cable. Using unauthorized adapter can be dangerous and may void your warranty.
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I'm not completely opposed to the idea that this could just be a marketing ploy to get you to buy their own adapter and accessories, but again just want to know if there's any substantial proof that fast charging, by itself, degrades the battery faster, of if it's just a case of incorrect tribal knowledge.
Thanks.
You are correct that the rate of charge and discharge alone are not the only deciding factors on lipo life and certainly not the most decisive ones.
Excessive heat, especially on high charge levels, is the biggest factor for increased aging.
As you mentioned extreme charging levels (completely empty or full) will also contribute to faster aging, albeit the impact is not that extreme for these low current-draw Lipos used in our phones (as opposed to high-drain Lipos for instance).
Discharge and Charge at high rates will also contribute to the speed of aging, but not as much as heat.
When a lipo spends most of its time one medium charging levels at moderate temperatures and is only charged and discharged with low rates on it will have the longest service life.
This is common for all Lipos, just how much a low or high rate is for that particular battery differs (low drain, high capacity VS high drain, low capacity cell)
With Lipos everything is a compromise. Max and min voltages, max temperatures, max draw are values the manufacturer has chosen as the best compromise to reach the intended MTBF. All these numbers are not physical absolute barriers.
Charges 0-100% in 1hr 30 mins
Second place after SuperCharge (even first gen) from Huawei. Much better than QC 3.0
Klanac89 said:
Second place after SuperCharge (even first gen) from Huawei. Much better than QC 3.0
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Nope. Super VOOC (OPPO) is hands down the fastest!
Gustav Karlsson said:
Nope. Super VOOC (OPPO) is hands down the fastest!
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First of all, how many device support Super VOOC? How many device you can buy outside China with VOOC?
Super VOOC is 50W, the same like Huaweis SuperCharge 2.
Did you test SuperCharge 2 or VOOC?
My OP6T charges up to 100% in 1hr 22mins, so I don't charge overnight anymore. Go to sleep on 40% and charge in the morning
The combo of battery life and crazy fast charging is for the first time breaking me of the "plug it in overnight" habit that I have had since my first cell phone over a decade ago. I can keep my charger at my desk, plug it in for half an hour, and be at 100% with almost no chance of running out before the next morning. That means fewer vampire chargers around the house wasting power, and fewer charge cycles lost leaving the phone plugged in long after it's full. I wish I had swapped to OnePlus sooner - I think I have finally found a phone maker to call my favorite.
The charging Speed with "Dash charge" is amazing.
Within few minutes the battery is from 0% to over 50%!
Generelly I can only say: Amazing battery life. The best I ever had with a phone (except Nokia 3310).
I started to charge when the battery was 5%. It took around 1 hour 20 mins. I can say this to be quite faster when compared to the devices I have used previously, that too when the size of the battery is much bigger than the previous phones.
Illrigger said:
The combo of battery life and crazy fast charging is for the first time breaking me of the "plug it in overnight" habit that I have had since my first cell phone over a decade ago. I can keep my charger at my desk, plug it in for half an hour, and be at 100% with almost no chance of running out before the next morning. That means fewer vampire chargers around the house wasting power, and fewer charge cycles lost leaving the phone plugged in long after it's full. I wish I had swapped to OnePlus sooner - I think I have finally found a phone maker to call my favorite.
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The incredibly fast charging, coupled with the insane battery life (especially in dark mode) has made me totally OK with no wireless charging. I used to leave my phone on the charging pad at my desk most of the day, and on my nightstand charging pad overnight. I never had to worry about charging at all and plugged in maybe 20 times max over the last two years with my Note5. I said I'd never buy a phone without wireless charging, but the $350 or so I got for my Note5 exchange for this phone was just too tempting to overlook, particularly if it set up my family for the next two to three years (our current phones didn't have band 71 and Samsung said no more security updates). The only thing I was really worried about was wireless charging and whether or not the battery life and dash charging would be enough for me to overcome range anxiety.
It has.
So I'm thinking of keeping my dash charger at home ,and my 30w aukey charger at work ,I take it this will be ok to use ?
Gustav Karlsson said:
Nope. Super VOOC (OPPO) is hands down the fastest!
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mate 20 pro, charges 4200 mAh in 1 hour.
Shady282 said:
mate 20 pro, charges 4200 mAh in 1 hour.
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Oppo Find X (Lamborghini edition) charges 3300 mAh in 35 min...
combat goofwing said:
So I'm thinking of keeping my dash charger at home ,and my 30w aukey charger at work ,I take it this will be ok to use ?
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It should be. If you are starting from full in the morning I doubt you will even need the charger are work except for very rare instances. I have gotten 7 hours SOT that was mostly gaming on this thing, moderate use you can easily get 24 hours, light use around 48.