I’ve, in all Windows Mobile forums, very often posted on the fact that Lithium-Ion / Polymer batteries should always be recharged whenever possible. That is, you should put your handheld / handset on the charger whenever possible. NEVER EVER wait before the handheld shuts down because even after only 4 months, your battery will only hold about a third (!) of its original charge holding capacity and, as opposed to what several people say, putting the device on the charger only once a day (or two-three days with devices with better battery life – mostly, TI OMAP-based handsets) on a regular basis (not waiting for the battery to completely deplete) will also have an adverse effect on the battery life.
Now, Groucho's pretty cool Nokia N95 blog has published a remarkable article, which is of extreme interest to anyone having a device with a Lithium Ion or Polymer-based rechargeable battery (not only Nokia N95 users – again, this info applies to ALL current Windows Mobile handsets, and a lot more other gadgets like digital cameras etc.). The figures he shows certainly prove I’ve been right when I recommended recharging your device whenever possible.
Groucho has purchased three N95’s (again and again, don’t think this discussion only applies to the N95 – it does apply to ANY device out there!) at the same time and used them in a pretty similar way. He, however, made absolutely sure he charged the device in three consistent (not mixing up the devices) and radically different ways: the first was charged only once a day (every night), not during the day; the second was charged when it has completely shut down because of the battery’s going flat and the third was almost always on charger whenever possible. The difference in the battery capacity, based on the different ways of recharging, turned out to be astonishing: the second battery (which was always let go flat, and only after that was it put on a charger) could only hold slightly more than a third of the battery that was always on charger whenever possible. The latter battery, in addition, fared considerably (about 16%) better than the battery only regularly (every night) recharged.
Note that the blog post has a mistake (which has no effect on the credibility of the results): it states they will have exactly the same charge holding capabilities throughout their life, and, suddenly, they die (“They have a finite shelf life which starts from the day they are manufactured and their condition from then degrades to the point where they fail! This is not to be confused with their charge holding abilities which are very good for their full life! When they go they just go!”). This is, of course, incorrect: their capacity will degrade over time. Just an example: my HP iPAQ 2210, which I bought right after it was released in Europe, at first, shut down at 2-3% battery level. After about two years, this raised to about 20% and, after three years, this was already around 35-38%. This also shows – along with a multitude of other examples – that these batteries do lose capacity over time. Also note that, as I’ve also recommended several times, Battery University has a decent article on all these questions – except for, of course, real-world results like the above.
Verdict: ignore if somebody says the opposite. Recharge your handheld whenever possible.
Menneisyys said:
I’ve, in all Windows Mobile forums, very often posted on the fact that Lithium-Ion / Polymer batteries should always be recharged whenever possible. That is, you should put your handheld / handset on the charger whenever possible. NEVER EVER wait before the handheld shuts down because even after only 4 months, your battery will only hold about a third (!) of its original charge holding capacity and, as opposed to what several people say, putting the device on the charger only once a day (or two-three days with devices with better battery life – mostly, TI OMAP-based handsets) on a regular basis (not waiting for the battery to completely deplete) will also have an adverse effect on the battery life.
Now, Groucho's pretty cool Nokia N95 blog has published a remarkable article, which is of extreme interest to anyone having a device with a Lithium Ion or Polymer-based rechargeable battery (not only Nokia N95 users – again, this info applies to ALL current Windows Mobile handsets, and a lot more other gadgets like digital cameras etc.). The figures he shows certainly prove I’ve been right when I recommended recharging your device whenever possible.
Groucho has purchased three N95’s (again and again, don’t think this discussion only applies to the N95 – it does apply to ANY device out there!) at the same time and used them in a pretty similar way. He, however, made absolutely sure he charged the device in three consistent (not mixing up the devices) and radically different ways: the first was charged only once a day (every night), not during the day; the second was charged when it has completely shut down because of the battery’s going flat and the third was almost always on charger whenever possible. The difference in the battery capacity, based on the different ways of recharging, turned out to be astonishing: the second battery (which was always let go flat, and only after that was it put on a charger) could only hold slightly more than a third of the battery that was always on charger whenever possible. The latter battery, in addition, fared considerably (about 16%) better than the battery only regularly (every night) recharged.
Note that the blog post has a mistake (which has no effect on the credibility of the results): it states they will have exactly the same charge holding capabilities throughout their life, and, suddenly, they die (“They have a finite shelf life which starts from the day they are manufactured and their condition from then degrades to the point where they fail! This is not to be confused with their charge holding abilities which are very good for their full life! When they go they just go!”). This is, of course, incorrect: their capacity will degrade over time. Just an example: my HP iPAQ 2210, which I bought right after it was released in Europe, at first, shut down at 2-3% battery level. After about two years, this raised to about 20% and, after three years, this was already around 35-38%. This also shows – along with a multitude of other examples – that these batteries do lose capacity over time. Also note that, as I’ve also recommended several times, Battery University has a decent article on all these questions – except for, of course, real-world results like the above.
Verdict: ignore if somebody says the opposite. Recharge your handheld whenever possible.
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An excellent post and very valuable info.It'll certainly help out many,who believe that the batteries shud only be charged once a day or when it's almost finished or going flat,by this the life of the batteries is saved and prolonged as against to charging whenever possible or more than once in a day,this concept is believed as charging more than one time will create a new charging point every time and will not fully charge the battery,thus,will impact the charge retaining capabilities of the battery and ultimately die out soon.
You are absolutely correct in saying that "This is, of course, incorrect: their capacity will degrade over time."and "that these batteries do lose capacity over time",Of course,they have a finite life cycle from the day they are manufactured,infact every gadget,machinery,electric appliances,PCs,Tvs and all everyday utilities have a life cycle and will die out with passage of time and longer use.
It has been observed in this and many other forums,people posting that their devices have gone dead due to battery going flat as they forgot to charge it. Than it becomes a pain in the A** to get it recharged again and get the phone alive again, Therefore,to avoid this dreadful scenario,it is always better to get the battery charged whenever possible,CUZ IT'S GONNA DIE OUT SOMEDAY,for sure,whether you charge it once a day or when it's gone flat or charge it whenever possible,but definitely save yourself from the horrible situation of getting a dead phone,due to a flat battery and frustrating ways to get it charged again.
Just to mention here,it's my personal experience, as I myself got into this situation once,while in a hurry and urgency,I forgot to get the battery charged and didn't realize it was almost going flat,after a couple of hours,suddenly the phone went dead,I wanted to make some very important calls,but there was no way I cud get the phone Power On,frantically started to look for ways to get it charged as I didn't have the charger with me,I tried to get it charged through usb connection with the Pc,but NO GO,it never started charging and there were no lights on the phone,In short I tried in many ways to get it charged and phone started.
Even,when I got back home,tried it with the Wall charger,it refused to charge,I got horrified.took it to a service shop.They said that while my trying to get it charge through various methods and again n again trying to wake the phone,the Pulse of the battery has gone down from the level,which it requires to communicate with the phone and start charging,Ultimately,it has to be Jump Started to get it working,therefore,I made a rule of my everyday working to get it charged a couple of times during the day,Now I have never to fear and face that dreadful situation again,And let me point out here that I have not seen any degration in the charging or performance of the battery so far as I'm doing this since last six months or so.
Thank you for confirming my believes in charging for more than once is advisable and will not effect much on the battery charge retention and life cycle
Cheer
Good writing ! I didn't know that it affected the battery that much! Thanks!
You are correct in saying that only charging a device when it has run down to 0% (or close) is bad for Lithium Ion batteries. That incorrect advice is left over from the Nickel Cadmium (Ni-Cd) era, when it worked on batteries with that chemistry to prolong their life due to the "memory effect".
But I don't think saying that Li-Ion batteries should be charged "as often as possible" is quite right, because keeping them at or near 100% charge WILL shorten their life, just like keeping them at or near 0% will (but not as much admittedly).
If you want to maximize the life of your Li-Ion batteries, you should make sure that they don't get any hotter than 25 degrees celcius (77F), and you should try to keep them in a state of 40% to 60% charge as much as possible (that means take it out of the charger without letting it get to 100%!).
Of course keeping it between 40% and 60% only lets you use 20% of the battery's full capacity, which is not convenient at all! So the next best thing is to charge it to 100%, then recharge it when it gets down to 40%.
Letting it get below 40% is the most damaging, but constantly keeping it above 60% charge is also damaging in the long term.
One last tip: Li-Ion batteries last longer the slower you charge them. So charge them with USB from the computer rather than an AC mains adapter, as this is usually the slower method (USB from a computer contains 0.5 Amps of current, whereas many AC chargers supply 1.0 to 1.5 Amps, even though they may have a "USB" connector).
Everything above can be backed up by various sources, here is a very good one: http://www.batteryuniversity.com/parttwo-34.htm
Interesting you mention charging at different amperes. There are quite a few quick-charge standard battery charges around the place that always state they will boost the battery up to 80% quite fast then the remainder takes a further few hours. This also usually causes the batteries to become excessively hot.
The 110/230 Volt mains charger that came with my Trinity charges really fast but definitely heats it to over 25°C. However the mains to miniUSB charger that came with my cradle, and the one that came with my BT headset both charge at a much slower (and cooler) rate, likely to be 0.5 Amps. I checked out the labels and they all indicate the same ratings. I know, I should chuck the multimeter on them to test…
Maybe I’ll go back to using the cradle mains charger when I’m at home and my PC isn’t on (as if that ever happens)
sl9 said:
But I don't think saying that Li-Ion batteries should be charged "as often as possible" is quite right, because keeping them at or near 100% charge WILL shorten their life, just like keeping them at or near 0% will (but not as much admittedly).
If you want to maximize the life of your Li-Ion batteries, you should make sure that they don't get any hotter than 25 degrees celcius (77F), and you should try to keep them in a state of 40% to 60% charge as much as possible (that means take it out of the charger without letting it get to 100%!).
Of course keeping it between 40% and 60% only lets you use 20% of the battery's full capacity, which is not convenient at all! So the next best thing is to charge it to 100%, then recharge it when it gets down to 40%.
Letting it get below 40% is the most damaging, but constantly keeping it above 60% charge is also damaging in the long term.
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Yup, 60% is the best usage scenario. However,
1. it does have a severe problem: the reduced battery life (60% vs. 100%), which may render its usage problematic in some cases (when you do need the remaining 40%). That is, it's only really usable when you are absolutely sure you can recharge your device when it's still, say, abouve 30%, leaving you an about 30% usability area.
2. the advantage of keeping teh battery around 60% (as opposed to 100%), battery capacity saving-wise, isn't so prevalent than recharging the battery whenever possible. That is, while keeping the battery at around 60% does result in better charge holding after X time, it's net effect is still much lower than, say, letting the battery go flat. As can be seen in the linked report, you can almost completely kill (leaving about 40% of the original charge holding capability) a Li-Ion battery in no more than four months. The 60% rule (as opposed to the 100% one) has far less (albeit, of course, considerable) advantages - on the long run.
BTW, I do the following: I keep my spare batteries I requently (say, in general, once a week or two weeks) use at around 70-80% (it's, being halfway between 60% and 100%, a tradeoff) and batteries I don't use at all (for example, my old Casio Cassiopeia batteries) at 40%.
There is some really interesting discussion of this article at MoDaCo, HowardForums, FirstLoox, PPCT, XDA-Developers - well worth checking out for more info / discussion.
sl9 said:
One last tip: Li-Ion batteries last longer the slower you charge them. So charge them with USB from the computer rather than an AC mains adapter, as this is usually the slower method (USB from a computer contains 0.5 Amps of current, whereas many AC chargers supply 1.0 to 1.5 Amps, even though they may have a "USB" connector).
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A quick note: if you know your power source is only capable of providing, say, 0.5A's, you might want to make absolutely sure its voltage doesn't drop under, say, 4.5 Volts at 0.5A. A lot of power sources (this is perfectly natural with all kinds of power transformators) do this; then, the batteries / the phone's electronics starts to struggle with providing the necessay charging voltage (IIRC, 4.2 Volts).
Also, the permanent damage of (or caused by) these chargers can also be a problem - I don't think a cheapo notebook has decent voltage stabilizators. An expensive IBM / Lenovo Thinkpad will never cause any problem to a USB device (they have VERY good USB protection - I've myself found this out with my a31p once, when I, accidentally, made a short circuit on the USB). A cheapo notebook is likely to use the cheapest (read: parts that not necessarily can stand even 0.5 Ampers) parts.
I have a laptop and a phone, both using original batteries and both around 4 years old now. The laptop is a dell with a 7 aH Li-Ion battery and the phone is a Nokia 6310i with a factory Li-Polymer battery. As I said, original standard batteries that came in the original package. Both have only been used with company standard chargers - no quick force-feed cradles here.
If I start with the phone, it is one of the best I ever had. I don't make many calls on this phone, mainly text messages, and it spends the most of it's time just idling. At night I usually turn it off, sometimes I use the temporary profile option with tone/vibration off, as I sleep better knowing the phone will not wake me up. I had a collegue who bought the same type of phone as me, and we treated it way different. First of all, he used it a lot more. Second of all, the charger went in and out quite often, and he often used the phone while it was charging. I have consistently only charged this phone to 100%, usually overnight. Sometimes charging it when it was quite low, but most of the time after about a week. This phone last two weeks on standby (if used during daytime only), and after 4 years ... it still does! It was the first triband Nokia made (to my knowledge), and I got one of the first ones in stead of getting the third Ericsson T39m in the same year (kept failing!). My collegues phone did not even last a day on a full charge, in LESS THAN HALF A YEAR. Now, four years after, my phone still last me two weeks with the minor use I demand of it.
Most notable habits for handling the phone/battery:
Very seldom used during recharging
Almost always charged uninterrupted to 100% - in off position or without using it
Not so heavy use
My collegue on the other hand interrupted the charge before reaching 100%, used it while on the charger and his battery died down to almost no capacity sooooo fast.
As for my Laptop, it is a Dell Inspiron 8600, and after 4 years, it still runs almost two hours on the original battery, using internet, wireless and bluetooth simultaneously and not going into any kind of power save.
Below is the way I have generally used it:
I have seldom removed the battery while on mains, as I find it difficult and also enjoy the safety of the battery being there if I pull the chord, power outtage etc. Contrary to my phone, I use my laptop A LOT, like, daily, for many hours usually, sometimes all day. It is mainly work related, reading/writing documents, some graphic work and so on. Not so much watching movies, but sometimes certain programs like OCR or other runs keep the CPU to 100% for a while. I mainly keep the battery in and charged, and unless the ambient temperature is high or I sit with the laptop on top of my lap where my body heat heats the battery, I have not found the battery to heat up much. Even when the fan is going 100% on a heavy load, the battery temp seems OK. For various practical reasons, I have more often recently used my laptop on battery until just before it cuts out by itself. I must say I did not check if that makes the battery hot, but after 4 years, I still get almost two hours of use with wireless and bluetooth enabled. I have friends and collegues who replace the battery after one or two years, because it is down to almost nothing in capacity.
Any battery powered device I have had in the last 5 years or so I have been treating with these golden rules, and none of them have had to have batteries changed so far ...
Do not interrupt battery until it is done charging (unless on trickle charge, obviously)
Charge any time you like, as long as you obey the rule above
Do not place a heavy load on the device while it is charging after having been run on batteries (again, trickle charge is OK while on mains)
A good way to accomplish these rules is to have a habit of charging devices before you sleep, even before being worn down (charging not so likely to be interupted by sudden change of plans).
Having run my laptop for thousands of hours with battery inside and connected to mains, for me after 4 years it has not killed my battery.
This is not scientific research, but for me, it has worked for all my devices - for whatever reason. Those who complain their batteries die quickly seem to be the ones who pulls the charger whenever they want.
Although lithium batteries are somewhat different than the way humans store and use their energy, it seems to me there are some similarities:
Does not like it too hot or too cold
If not allowed to eat/charge fully on a regular basis, charging more often is necessary.
Can get annoyed if suddenly disrupted during feeding/charging.
If force fed, less energy can be taken up compared to a slow and easy feed.
This is not meant as proof, as in "because humans are like this, so are batteries", but to me, it just seems coincidental that there are some similarities. Me, personally, I eat one to three times a day. Yes, I can do with one meal a day, but two meals a day I think are optimum for me. Consistently eating 3 or more times a day makes my weight go up, I have been over 200 pounds for my 6'3" after being in a job for a year where I "was fed" too often. Now, I am fit and healthy at around 170 lbs, I seldom have headaches or fatigue, and I have an endurance like not many others! Without "charging" I can last a long time. Give me a good evening meal, and the next morning I can run a half marathon with no breakfast, just water.
Conclusion: Let the facts of real life be your proof instead of going after experts opinion. Let's have more experiments to find the real truth!
1, you're pretty fortunate your notebook battery is still going strong. I've never seen a notebook battery SO good - the situation you've described doesn't even seem to adhere to the laws of chemistry (that is, after two years, a Li-Ion battery kept consistently at 100% charging level is bound to lose at least 20% of its original capacity, independent of the usage).
2, the human vs. battery comparison, IMHO, isn't the best. Most feeding / intake specalists state one should prefer the way of "eat many times a day, but little each time" - that is, say, some 4-5 apples, tomatoes, cucumbers etc. a day, say, one (or two) every hour - at least this is what I do at work. I also refrain from eating a lot at lunchtime - I, generally, eat a quarter portion, and take the rest with me, continuously eating it later say, a bit every hours. This surely won't result in getting fat - on the contrary. If, of course, you don't keep your stomach at 100% load level
nice tip on eating...
I wrote specifically that it was not proof or anything, it just seems that some things are similar. My laptop batter has probably lost a little, but the way I have treated it, it still works after 4 years, where collegues/friends a long time ago would have had to get new batteries. I did not make specific measurements, but maybe a new battery would last me around 2.5 hours instead of two, but I have seen batteries that last 5 minutes, and they are less than 2 years old.
So what is a "good way" to kill a battery fast? I thought that stopping charging before 100% is one of the ways to kill a battery, but as soon as I see a test where it is proved that it is the other way around, I'd be happy not to have to wait for 100% before pulling the plug. But the mentioned Nokia test is only varying on when to start the recharging, not when to end it.
As for the comparison to humans ... I know they say you should eat many small meals a day, and that is great if you measure your meals precisely in calories and content. But for a normal, daily unscientific diet, many of those people I hear reiterate the "eat many but small meals to loose weight" have them selves ... weight problems. I have proven that it works (for me), I can see my weight increase when I get into periods of eating 3 or more meals a day. Same with my batteries. I can see they last a long time, where other peoples batteries die - so ... why does it work then?
I know this is kind of an old post (hah) but just an update about Li-Ion batteries:
The final 5-10% of charging is the part that does the most "wear and tear" of the whole charge process, this is the reason IBM (now Lenovo) Thinkpads don't charge the final bit all the time. So avoid *topping off* when charging. If done within the normal charging it shouldn't be a problem.
Simple Guidelines (taken from: http://www.batteryuniversity.com/parttwo-34.htm)
* Avoid frequent full discharges because this puts additional strain on the battery. Several partial discharges with frequent recharges are better for lithium-ion than one deep one. Recharging a partially charged lithium-ion does not cause harm because there is no memory. (In this respect, lithium-ion differs from nickel-based batteries.) Short battery life in a laptop is mainly cause by heat rather than charge / discharge patterns.
* Batteries with fuel gauge (laptops) should be calibrated by applying a deliberate full discharge once every 30 charges. Running the pack down in the equipment does this. If ignored, the fuel gauge will become increasingly less accurate and in some cases cut off the device prematurely.
* Keep the lithium-ion battery cool. Avoid a hot car. For prolonged storage, keep the battery at a 40% charge level.
* Consider removing the battery from a laptop when running on fixed power. (Some laptop manufacturers are concerned about dust and moisture accumulating inside the battery casing.)
* Avoid purchasing spare lithium-ion batteries for later use. Observe manufacturing dates. Do not buy old stock, even if sold at clearance prices.
* If you have a spare lithium-ion battery, use one to the fullest and keep the other cool by placing it in the refrigerator. Do not freeze the battery. For best results, store the battery at 40% state-of-charge.
does that mean if you have two batteries, you should only use one most of the time and keep the other one in storage?
I would have thought it would be better to alternate between the two every week or something. Nothing worse than having the battery in storage for a few months and then when you actually need it on a trip you find that it only has 50% capacity
Actually the article says that you should "store" batteries at 40% if you're keeping one as a backup, I think the best option would be to alternate them. Keeping one stored at 100% actually causes it to lose its charge FASTER than one stored at 40%
FYI : as you are charging/discharging your battery, the hysteresis threshold (this is called like this in electronic) is decreasing, when it's new it still at 100% then 99%,98%,97% etc
This is the reason why sometimes when you think your battery is fully loaded, his load stops at the hysteresis threshold.
In some case it's possible to raise this hysteresis threshold (when the battery is recent). and to retrieve the full charge.
Here is a tips that I use since some years (my ipaq 3660)
When your device show your battery 100% loaded (of course it's not) the LED light should go off. if you unplug your power AC, and plug it back, and if you notice that your device is loading a few seconds (3-5 sec) then you are raising the hysteresis threshold. of course not to 100%, but a little.
now, put a dvd movie, sit down, and repeat the tips as much as the light doesn't show the device is charging a few seconds. I mean is your battery is full loaded then when you plug back the power ac it should not charge again. so your hysteresis threshold is probably at 100% and your battery should work has a new one.
sorry if my english isn't good enough for this contrib.
Related
Can someone help me out here this is for an Orbit 2 less than 1 week old. I charged the device this morning so by 09:00 it was on full power. By 14:00 its down to 75%. Usage below:
10 minutes phone calls
I have my email set to retrieve from Yahoo every 15 minutes
On battery the screen is set to 50% - 75% brightness
Co-pilot has live function and traffic updates, but I presume that is only when its actually turned on and running Co-Pilot
What is going wrong?
Firstly, did you give it 3 charges of 16 hours plus? I didn't, and don't have as good a battery life of some others that did.
Also, have you got Windows Live connected and checking your hotmail constantly? That killed my battery.
Finally, I leave HSDPA switched off, as I find it chews juice without being THAT much faster; 3G is fast enough browsing and downloading for me.
Good luck, keep us posted.
I've got a HTC TyTN (hermes) and i get the same problem: my battery wears off in maximum 3 hours after i fully charge it. all the connections are turned off,except for the phone function. also, while it's charging, no matter if it's charging through the usb or the AC charger, the battery gets very hot. PLEASE can anyone help
(i have the black satin normal rom, with the 1.43.00.00 radio version installed)
I all so have battery questions. This devise was advertised as an 7 hour talk time on GSM. Compare to my T-Mobile wing witch was only 5 hour talk time.
I don't use phone a lot during day only 5-10 min phone calls and every 60 min e-mail check. And T-mobile Wing (p4350) was going for 3 days no charge no problem. And This I have to charge every day. At the end of the day i have only 60% And T-Mobile USA don't have 3G eat.
I don't get it this phone supposed have one of the best battery life out of HTC phones. And I did charge it wan i first got it for long time before i tern it on.
About chargin and discharge our phones, whe have to remember that we do not use NiCd/NiMh batteries any more.
I have some facts about Li-ion batteries!!!
Guidelines for prolonging Li-ion battery life!
Unlike Ni-Cd batteries, lithium-ion batteries should be charged early and often. However, if they are not used for a long time, they should be brought to a charge level of around 40% - 60%.
Lithium-ion batteries should not be frequently fully discharged and recharged ("deep-cycled") like Ni-Cd batteries, but this is necessary after about every 30th recharge to recalibrate any external electronic "fuel gauge" (e.g. State Of Charge meter). This prevents the fuel gauge from showing an incorrect battery charge.
Lithium-ion batteries should never be depleted to below their minimum voltage, 2.4v to 3.0v per cell.
Li-ion batteries should be kept cool. Ideally they are stored in a refrigerator. Aging will take its toll much faster at high temperatures. The high temperatures found in cars cause lithium-ion batteries to degrade rapidly.
According to one book,[35] lithium-ion batteries should not be frozen (most lithium-ion battery electrolytes freeze at approximately −40 °C; however, this is much colder than the lowest temperature reached by household freezers).
Li-ion batteries should be bought only when needed, because the aging process begins as soon as the battery is manufactured.[13]
When using a notebook computer running from fixed line power over extended periods, the battery should be removed, and stored in a cool place so that it is not affected by the heat produced by the computer.
/Krypto
BadTasteUK said:
Firstly, did you give it 3 charges of 16 hours plus? I didn't, and don't have as good a battery life of some others that did.
Also, have you got Windows Live connected and checking your hotmail constantly? That killed my battery.
Finally, I leave HSDPA switched off, as I find it chews juice without being THAT much faster; 3G is fast enough browsing and downloading for me.
Good luck, keep us posted.
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16 hours?!?!?!!?
It's a highly debated point, but it seems some who have done the old "3 charges of 16 hours" have a longer lasting battery than certainly I do.
In fact the O2 shop I bought the phone from advised the same, although I didn't actually do it!
Who knows the real best thing to do, all I know is I only get a day out of it, with light to medium use and HSDPA turned off.
Personally, I'm a little speculative of the 16 hour charge times.
I'm not gonna try to be an expert here, but aren't Li-Ion charge circuits designed such that when the battery reaches capacity, the charge cycle is complete? Ie. There is no further trickle charge to the battery? In that case, the 16 hour charge is not doing any good.
But in any case, I myself get 2 days fairly easily with about 1.5-2 hours of phone calls in an Edge area.
I am a firm believer a big difference comes from using of Standby and your signal strength. I've noticed where I go ski'in there is a very weak signal and my battery life drops to 40% or less in one day. So I think this is one major characteristic that will vary between all of us and will dramatically affect the battery life test results.
DaRacerz, you are absolutly right!
No trickle charge is applied because the Li-ion is unable to absorb overcharge. Trickle charge could cause plating of metallic lithium, a condition that renders the cell unstable.
So charging for 16 hours won't do anything.
From http://www.wmskins.com/blog/how-to-increase-battery-life-of-windows-mobiles:
1. A Lithium Ion battery should never be charged to 100% or fully Discharged. The famous 80-20 rule is applicable here as well, though in a different way. Charging to 80% increases battery life.
2. Don’t wait for full discharge, charge it frequently. Keeping the battery near to 80% always, gives better life. This is also what many vendors claim as “memory effect”.
I followed that advice and then after a few weeks, when once I charged it to 100%, it dropped quickly to 80%! and has been like that since. now I don't give a damn to that rule and charge my phone to 100% instead.
At this point, I would advise you do a full charge and deep discharge of your phone. Just to allow the phone to calibrate itself to the battery again.
However, I would advise against running programs to intentionally drain it at a high draw. So instead of playing 5 hours of FPSECE to drain it flat, just let it sit on standby and use it as you normally would, until it dies. Then charge it back up in one continuous charge (refrain from unplugging until it goes back to 100%). Hopefully that will restore the accuracy of your battery meter by a bit.
And IMHO, the article you included discusses things about batteries that are no longer true....
2. Don’t wait for full discharge, charge it frequently. Keeping the battery near to 80% always, gives better life. This is also what many vendors claim as “memory effect”.
No. "Memory effect" is, in laymen terms, the battery not being able to hold above a certain charge after being repeatedly discharged from the same capacity. E.g. being discharged at 80%. It doesn't "give battery life" -- in fact it kills your battery's capacity.
This is a term more relevant for old NiCd batteries. LiONs and most NiMH batteries have very weak/no memory effect.
3. Every battery has limited Full charge-discharge cycles. Of the order of 300+. In other words a typical phone battery can be fully charged/discharged 300 times. Doing more frequent charges, as specified in point #2, will increase overall life.
Partially true. Every battery can be charged a number of times before its ability to hold a charge deteriorates. Usually this is around 300, though the exact number varies between individual batteries. However, the concept of a "cycle" isn't exact -- just because you charged from 60-80% (or whatever) doesn't mean you didn't use a cycle. It's really a continuum, and should only be conceptualized as the battery losing its ability to be charged and hold a charge, the more times you charge it.
4. During first time use (when the battery is new) don`t use it till its fully charged. This is why it is always written on manuals “let the device charge for 2-3 hours”.
The necessity of preconditioning is controversial now. There is little evidence to suggest that devices nowadays benefit from preconditioning, and likewise there is little evidence that not doing so harms battery longevity. Many manuals these days simply omit to mention preconditioning.
5. Best way to increase battery life is Not to use it. If you keep AC power plugged in on your phones, keeping the battery at 80% (as in #1), your battery will last longer. Though discharging it once in a month would be must in such cases.
Partially true. Not using your battery does indeed help its longevity, but not by plugging into the AC. Heat is a LiON battery's enemy, and plugging it into your wall will generate heat that is ultimately bad. This translates to laptop batteries as well -- if you want to store a laptop battery, the best bet is to discharge it to 40%, then put it somewhere cool (even the fridge if you want).
Also I would say doing a deep discharge once a month is too frequent. Once every 2 or even 3 months is more appropriate.
Finally, LiON batteries themselves have a shelf life. So even if you let them sit there, they will lose their function after a few years. Just so yo uknow.
6. Surrounding temperature contributes a lot. Colder weather gives better battery life. So make sure your cellphone doesn’t overheat, if it does, find ways to keep it cool.
True. And that's why you shouldn't leave it plugged in.
Learn more about batteries here: http://www.batteryuniversity.com/
felixdd said:
E.g. being discharged at 80%. It doesn't "give battery life" -- in fact it kills your battery's capacity.
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is that so? why? so i guess now my battery's capacity has lessened. damn the article.
have drained my battery to 1% and charged it to 100%. let's see how it goes from here..
good subject for discusion. WM user or not the battery life and the tricks of LION only a few knows.
1.i have two batteries for my HTC. he original battery and one with 2800mAh. Does my phone cofused if i change tha batteries aternately?
2. if ai want to work with my phone for hours is it better to connect it with the charger?
3. Wich kind of charging is better? with USB cable from pc or wall charger.
I have the option in my BIOS for my laptop which says an 80% charge will prolong the lifespan of the battery.
Batteries must undergo a fair bit of research (for environmental impact reasons if nothing else!) and to have such a bold statement to me indicates that its an obvious fact to battery researchers.
Given ive lay in bed this morning messing about on facebook and setting up rss feeds on my phone and emptied a full battery I dont think Id ever stop charging at 80%. Ill just buy another battery!
i really doubt cold weather improves battery life, numerous times my family and I brought electronic products to cold countries and the Battery life always drops at a much quicker rate
dan138zig said:
is that so? why? so i guess now my battery's capacity has lessened. damn the article.
have drained my battery to 1% and charged it to 100%. let's see how it goes from here..
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You are taking what i said out of context.
What I'm saying is that IF your battery had a memory effect as the original article claimed, then charging the battery to only 80 will create a memory at 80, which would be worse for your battery. I'm merely trying to point out an inconsistency in there article.
However, I went on to say that li ON batteries do not have a memory effect. So more relevant to the real world is the fact that our batteries will not experience memory as claimed by the article.
Two main things kill lithium batteries, heat and time as they promote deposits forming in the electrolyte, which reduces the capacity of the battery.
So, buying a "spare" battery at the time you buy a phone with a plan on using it when the original battery starts to fail is a bad idea as the spare battery would be slowly deterorating on the shelf.
Deep charges rather than top up charges are bad as they produce more heat inside the battery, although doing it if your battery doesn't seem to be holding it's chage is a good idea as it should recalibrate the phone's battery level software.
To paraphrase the old saying, " blogs and opinions are like a##holes, everyone has one "
I have followed the links in this thread and so far I have just read unsubstantiated opinion.
I have used " cordless " electronics for most of my life and have used all kinds of batteries extensively as well as talked to company reps and battery " experts ".
Nickel Cadmium batteries had memories. The batteries had to be conditioned and fully charged and discharged. The new Lithium Ion batteries were advantageous , not only because they held a bigger charge and lasted longer, but also because they have NO memory. The latest example being, I regularly charged my Tilt battery to all levels of charge. Mostly 100% everyday and ran it down to 5% most times before charging it again. I used it a lot and charged it a lot. and it lasted 2 yrs.
The only difference I have really noticed in batteries has nothing to do with the way you charge it. It has to do with " getting what you pay for " I have had quality batteries really show their quality and $ 12 batteries give me up to and only my $12 worth.
Charging Lithium Ion Batteries to 80%
denco7 said:
To paraphrase the old saying, " blogs and opinions are like a##holes, everyone has one "
I have followed the links in this thread and so far I have just read unsubstantiated opinion.
I have used " cordless " electronics for most of my life and have used all kinds of batteries extensively as well as talked to company reps and battery " experts ".
Nickel Cadmium batteries had memories. The batteries had to be conditioned and fully charged and discharged. The new Lithium Ion batteries were advantageous , not only because they held a bigger charge and lasted longer, but also because they have NO memory. The latest example being, I regularly charged my Tilt battery to all levels of charge. Mostly 100% everyday and ran it down to 5% most times before charging it again. I used it a lot and charged it a lot. and it lasted 2 yrs.
The only difference I have really noticed in batteries has nothing to do with the way you charge it. It has to do with " getting what you pay for " I have had quality batteries really show their quality and $ 12 batteries give me up to and only my $12 worth.
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I have a Nissan Leaf. It is clear that the engineers have spent a LOT of time thinking about how to maximize the life of the battery in the car. One of the options the car come with is to ALWAYS charge the batteries to 80%. In fact, they've gone as far as to add a button on the dashboard to override that setting in cases where a 100% charge is needed. According to the documentation that comes with the car, this is the single most important step to prolonging battery life. Next is frequent charges. Next is monitoring battery temperature which is constantly shown in a BIG display on the dashboard. In general, a good way to think about a lithium ion battery is that over its life you're trying to maximize the amount of power stored and then subsequently removed from the device. From the research I've done, if the "charging/discharging life" of the battery were cycles that swung from 100% to 0% you might get X kwHrs of power "moved" through the battery, yet if you were to limit charges to 80% and constantly charge it after each use, you could expect at least 2X! So it's a big deal. I live in Bellevue, Washington which has a very mild climate and have put 26,000 miles on this car in the last 2 years, making mostly small 3-to-20 mile trips, and I routinely charge the car when I pull into the garage, and would estimate that the battery has been charged well over 1000 times. To date, there is no detectable loss in battery capacity; the first indication of which would appear on the car's instrumentation when just over 4% of the charging capacity of the car has been lost.
My Sony VAIO Pro 13 actually offers the 80/20 option in Power Settings. However, I do not use it.
So I picked up a Nexus 5, and I like it, but being that it has a sealed battery I'm a little OCD over prolonging the life of it. After doing some digging, I have come up with the following tips to follow (and some of these are common sense with regards to a lithium battery):
Don't let your battery dip below 20% often
NEVER let it die completely (unless you have to calibrate your phones battery readings)
Charging to 100% isn't the best for it, and especially don't let it sit at 100% due to heat issues
Don't charge it in subfreezing temperatures, or especially in 100+ degree weather
Generally speaking, small charges spaced out (adding 15-30% or so at a time) is better than ~75% at a time due to heat issues
Very, very small charges done in rapid succession (adding 5-10% - A.K.A. "bump charging"), is bad
Qi supposedly heats the battery too much
OK, so that's what I've established in doing some research... Anyone disagree with this?
So generally speaking, what I should do to maintain maximum battery health is use my phone from 90% back down to 20% (and back up to 90%) regularly, correct? Obviously this is in a perfect scenario, but it's good to know.
Well I had a few side questions of my own:
If you get a quality Qi charger that runs (acceptably) cool, will it still be too hot to use day in and day out for optimum battery health?
If you do shorter charges on Qi (say 15-30% as mentioned above), would that be OK at that point?
What if I want to go use my phone heavily (lets say play a game for an hour), is it less stress on the battery to use it while on the charger (and get hot), or just let the battery cycle on it's own and charge it multiple times in the process? Basically, does using the phone while plugged in (whether charging, or trickle-charging at 100%) cause more degradation than cycling the battery multiple times?
Is letting your phone off the charger at night (cycling the battery, even if just a little bit) really better than leaving your phone plugged in at 100%?
This is an interesting topic to debate, and I want to hear what you think!
rytymu said:
So I picked up a Nexus 5, and I like it, but being that it has a sealed battery I'm a little OCD over prolonging the life of it. After doing some digging, I have come up with the following tips to follow (and some of these are common sense with regards to a lithium battery):
Don't let your battery dip below 20% often
NEVER let it die completely (unless you have to calibrate your phones battery readings)
Charging to 100% isn't the best for it, and especially don't let it sit at 100% due to heat issues
Don't charge it in subfreezing temperatures, or especially in 100+ degree weather
Generally speaking, small charges spaced out (adding 15-30% or so at a time) is better than ~75% at a time due to heat issues
Very, very small charges done in rapid succession (adding 5-10% - A.K.A. "bump charging"), is bad
Qi supposedly heats the battery too much
OK, so that's what I've established in doing some research... Anyone disagree with this?
So generally speaking, what I should do to maintain maximum battery health is use my phone from 90% back down to 20% (and back up to 90%) regularly, correct? Obviously this is in a perfect scenario, but it's good to know.
Well I had a few side questions of my own:
If you get a quality Qi charger that runs (acceptably) cool, will it still be too hot to use day in and day out for optimum battery health?
If you do shorter charges on Qi (say 15-30% as mentioned above), would that be OK at that point?
What if I want to go use my phone heavily (lets say play a game for an hour), is it less stress on the battery to use it while on the charger (and get hot), or just let the battery cycle on it's own and charge it multiple times in the process? Basically, does using the phone while plugged in (whether charging, or trickle-charging at 100%) cause more degradation than cycling the battery multiple times?
Is letting your phone off the charger at night (cycling the battery, even if just a little bit) really better than leaving your phone plugged in at 100%?
This is an interesting topic to debate, and I want to hear what you think!
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First off, BUMP!
Second, here are some results I've had. While idling, the battery life is RIDICULOUSLY good, however, whenever the screen is on the battery is terrible... It's like a Toyota Prius with a V10 hybrid-drive; around town it is very efficient, but get on the highway and VROOOOOOOOM!
The phone was at 42% charge after two days. Granted, there was only 37 minutes of screen usage, but I did quite a bit of Bluetooth / Spotify streaming. Wifi was on and connected almost the entire time. I do notice that my idle drain goes from .2% to .6% lost per hour on wifi, to 1.5% to 3% lost per hour while on HSPA+ / LTE.
rytymu said:
So I picked up a Nexus 5, and I like it, but being that it has a sealed battery I'm a little OCD over prolonging the life of it. After doing some digging, I have come up with the following tips to follow (and some of these are common sense with regards to a lithium battery):
Don't let your battery dip below 20% often
NEVER let it die completely (unless you have to calibrate your phones battery readings)
Charging to 100% isn't the best for it, and especially don't let it sit at 100% due to heat issues
Don't charge it in subfreezing temperatures, or especially in 100+ degree weather
Generally speaking, small charges spaced out (adding 15-30% or so at a time) is better than ~75% at a time due to heat issues
Very, very small charges done in rapid succession (adding 5-10% - A.K.A. "bump charging"), is bad
Qi supposedly heats the battery too much
OK, so that's what I've established in doing some research... Anyone disagree with this?
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Click to collapse
Most of those aren't really wrong, they're just massively over-exaggerated.
A. Heat only matters if you're getting the battery up to like, 50C often. Note that the phone will actually stop charging if it hits these temperatures.
B. Small charges don't really help or hurt.
C. Qi doesn't heat the battery itself that much.
Overall, you're overthinking it way too much. Just don't leave your phone on the car dash in the middle of the summer sun, don't leave it on the charger for an entire week without unplugging it, and try not to drain it completely to 0%.
Li-Polymer batteries are far more resilient than people give them credit for. Even if you used your phone absolutely perfectly, over the course of a couple years you'd be lucky to get an extra 5% of life out of it. It's not worth your time and stress at all.
This is intended to be generic - Moto G3 with any ROM - stock or custom, and any apps on it.
I had drained my battery to 40% chasing a supposed weak signal problem, and noticed that it seemed to take many hours to recharge. Probably didn't help that I left it on while charging. I have always recharged this only letting it get down to maybe 80%. Some folks say that is bad.
I ordered a replacement battery on ebay. Currently undecided whether to install it.
Searched around for determining battery health and yes there is the usual very extensive test that will probably kill your battery by the time you are done.
One app said my battery was "good". Another wanted to calibrate it "Advanced battery calibrator" which wanted to install "battery life repair" which wanted to check my battery, supposedly found some bad cells, and when told to fix them, supposedly fixed them (NASA should be alerted about this for things like Mars Rovers!!!)( ), and of course a bunch of reviewers saying it's fake, and etc.
BUT... All that aside, I thought I would post that to see if anyone has found any great pearl of wisdom as to determining when to replace a battery. Or how to extend it's life. Or anything else pertaining to MG3 phone batteries..
EDIT: found this at http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/gadgets/a15731/best-way-to-keep-li-ion-batteries-charged/
One cycle is just one bout of discharging, but how much energy you discharge in one go—a measure referred to as depth of discharge (DoD)—matters bigtime. Lithium-ions really hate a deep depth of discharge. According to Battery University, a staggeringly exhaustive resource on the topic, a li-ion that goes through 100 percent DoD (the user runs it down all the way to zero before recharging) can degrade to 70 percent of its original capacity in 300-500 cycles. With a DoD of 25 percent, where the user plugs it in as soon as it gets to 75 percent remain, that same battery could be charged up to 2,500 times before it starts to seriously degrade.
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Oddly that's what I've been doing. Maybe battery's fine...? Figure 2 years at 1/day = 720. But what would leaving it plugged in all night be considered?
Then there's this which says don't leave it plugged in when it's fully charged (which I do overnight)
https://www.sciencealert.com/here-is-the-best-way-to-charge-your-phone
Yes, we know. Our smartphone batteries are bad because they barely last a day.
But it's partially our fault because we've been charging them wrong this whole time.
Many of us have an ingrained notion that charging our smartphones in small bursts will cause long-term damage to their batteries and that it's better to charge them when they're close to dead.
But we couldn't be more wrong.
In fact, a site from battery company Cadex called Battery University details how the lithium-ion batteries in our smartphones are sensitive to their own versions of 'stress'. And, like for humans, extended stress could be damaging your smartphone battery's long-term lifespan.
If you want to keep your smartphone battery in top condition and go about your day without worrying about battery life, you need to change a few things.
Don't keep it plugged in when it's fully charged
According to Battery University, leaving your phone plugged in when it's fully charged, like you might overnight, is bad for the battery in the long run.
Once your smartphone has reached 100 percent charge, it gets 'trickle charges' to keep it at 100 percent while plugged in. It keeps the battery in a high-stress, high-tension state, which wears down the chemistry within.
Battery University goes into a bunch of scientific detail explaining why, but it also sums it up nicely: "When fully charged, remove the battery" from its charging device. "This is like relaxing the muscles after strenuous exercise." You too would be pretty miserable if you worked out nonstop for hours and hours.
In fact, try not to charge it to 100 percent
At least when you don't have to.
According to Battery University, "Li-ion does not need to be fully charged, nor is it desirable to do so. In fact, it is better not to fully charge, because a high voltage stresses the battery" and wears it away in the long run.
That might seem counterintuitive if you're trying to keep your smartphone charged all day, but just plug it in whenever you can during the day, and you'll be fine.
Plug in your phone whenever you can
It turns out that the batteries in our smartphones are much happier if you charge them occasionally throughout the day instead of plugging them in for a big charging session when they're empty.
Charging your phone when it loses 10 percent of its charge would be the best-case scenario, according to Battery University. Obviously, that's not practical for most people, so just plug in your smartphone whenever you can. It's fine to plug and unplug it multiple times a day.
Not only does this keep your smartphone's battery performing optimally for longer, but it also keeps it topped up throughout the day.
Plus, periodic top-ups also let you use features you might not normally use because they hog your battery life, like location-based features that use your smartphone's GPS antenna.
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Between here, Zentalk and a few groups on Facebook I am seeing many different battery settings that people are claiming to be the best.
Currently I have fast charge enabled, I only plug the phone in when it is below 8% and I won't remove the phone from charging, or use it while charging until its at 100%. Once it reaches 100% I remove it from the charger promptly. I don't ever plug it in during gaming or any other time. With my usage battery lasts 2 days.
People who report using the same settings are getting varied results. While my battery health page shows I have good habits (green), others are saying their phone is giving them fair (yellow) and needs attention (red).
Others are saying that its best for the battery health overall to keep it charged above 30%, but not to let it exceed 80% capacity. This seems crazy to me since it's only utilizing 50% of the phones capacity. But nowadays replacing a battery is not as easy as popping the back cover off. Does it make sense to do it this way?
Let me know what you are using and what your results are.
Thank you!
I can't find the study on it, but there was a really complex and technical study about the lifespan of the battery when charged fully compared to topped off. It's also a bit questionable if number of charges is a valid indicator, since getting 20 charges at 20 to 80 and 13.5 at 10 to 100 are roughly the same amount of time plugged in.
I typically charge at 15 and pull it right when it hits 100. A phone has a two year lifespan, four if you're lucky. If either method manages to hurt the battery enough to be noticeable in that time, then it's time to try another manufacturer.
twistedumbrella said:
I can't find the study on it, but there was a really complex and technical study about the lifespan of the battery when charged fully compared to topped off. It's also a bit questionable if number of charges is a valid indicator, since getting 20 charges at 20 to 80 and 13.5 at 10 to 100 are roughly the same amount of time plugged in.
I typically charge at 15 and pull it right when it hits 100. A phone has a two year lifespan, four if you're lucky. If either method manages to hurt the battery enough to be noticeable in that time, then it's time to try another manufacturer.
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Hyper charge on the whole time?
The phone switches to steady at 50% anyway doesn't it?
I like to get about 3 years out of my devices if possible, and in reality if I need to charge it more frequently it's not really a big issue since I keep a charger at my desk at work anyway. My Razer 2 battery is still fairly healthy all things considered, so I had to be doing something right lol
I always use my phones at least 4 years and never faced "heavy" battery issues. Even my current one (one plus 5) has still a decent screen on time of 5/6 hours depending on usage after 4 years. So I'm quite convinced that I do something right - even if it's only the choice of my manufacturer
I try to keep it within the 20/80% range but I charge it at least once per day - sometimes twice depending on the usage. So it has probably around 2000 loading cycles. Same goes my previous Smartphone. Because of that I'll continue this way. However: I pay attention to app usage, uninstall unused system apps, use battery friendly roms and disable unrequired background tasks or don't install apps that do strange things in the background (looking at tiktok)
As said I don't claim this is the best way since I have no reference what would have happened if I had charged it from 8% to 100% in this entire time. I can only compare it with my friends who do it and complain about their batteries after 3 years.