I’ve, in all Windows Mobile forums, very often posted on the fact that Lithium-Ion / Polymer batteries should always be recharged whenever possible. That is, you should put your handheld / handset on the charger whenever possible. NEVER EVER wait before the handheld shuts down because even after only 4 months, your battery will only hold about a third (!) of its original charge holding capacity and, as opposed to what several people say, putting the device on the charger only once a day (or two-three days with devices with better battery life – mostly, TI OMAP-based handsets) on a regular basis (not waiting for the battery to completely deplete) will also have an adverse effect on the battery life.
Now, Groucho's pretty cool Nokia N95 blog has published a remarkable article, which is of extreme interest to anyone having a device with a Lithium Ion or Polymer-based rechargeable battery (not only Nokia N95 users – again, this info applies to ALL current Windows Mobile handsets, and a lot more other gadgets like digital cameras etc.). The figures he shows certainly prove I’ve been right when I recommended recharging your device whenever possible.
Groucho has purchased three N95’s (again and again, don’t think this discussion only applies to the N95 – it does apply to ANY device out there!) at the same time and used them in a pretty similar way. He, however, made absolutely sure he charged the device in three consistent (not mixing up the devices) and radically different ways: the first was charged only once a day (every night), not during the day; the second was charged when it has completely shut down because of the battery’s going flat and the third was almost always on charger whenever possible. The difference in the battery capacity, based on the different ways of recharging, turned out to be astonishing: the second battery (which was always let go flat, and only after that was it put on a charger) could only hold slightly more than a third of the battery that was always on charger whenever possible. The latter battery, in addition, fared considerably (about 16%) better than the battery only regularly (every night) recharged.
Note that the blog post has a mistake (which has no effect on the credibility of the results): it states they will have exactly the same charge holding capabilities throughout their life, and, suddenly, they die (“They have a finite shelf life which starts from the day they are manufactured and their condition from then degrades to the point where they fail! This is not to be confused with their charge holding abilities which are very good for their full life! When they go they just go!”). This is, of course, incorrect: their capacity will degrade over time. Just an example: my HP iPAQ 2210, which I bought right after it was released in Europe, at first, shut down at 2-3% battery level. After about two years, this raised to about 20% and, after three years, this was already around 35-38%. This also shows – along with a multitude of other examples – that these batteries do lose capacity over time. Also note that, as I’ve also recommended several times, Battery University has a decent article on all these questions – except for, of course, real-world results like the above.
Verdict: ignore if somebody says the opposite. Recharge your handheld whenever possible.
Menneisyys said:
I’ve, in all Windows Mobile forums, very often posted on the fact that Lithium-Ion / Polymer batteries should always be recharged whenever possible. That is, you should put your handheld / handset on the charger whenever possible. NEVER EVER wait before the handheld shuts down because even after only 4 months, your battery will only hold about a third (!) of its original charge holding capacity and, as opposed to what several people say, putting the device on the charger only once a day (or two-three days with devices with better battery life – mostly, TI OMAP-based handsets) on a regular basis (not waiting for the battery to completely deplete) will also have an adverse effect on the battery life.
Now, Groucho's pretty cool Nokia N95 blog has published a remarkable article, which is of extreme interest to anyone having a device with a Lithium Ion or Polymer-based rechargeable battery (not only Nokia N95 users – again, this info applies to ALL current Windows Mobile handsets, and a lot more other gadgets like digital cameras etc.). The figures he shows certainly prove I’ve been right when I recommended recharging your device whenever possible.
Groucho has purchased three N95’s (again and again, don’t think this discussion only applies to the N95 – it does apply to ANY device out there!) at the same time and used them in a pretty similar way. He, however, made absolutely sure he charged the device in three consistent (not mixing up the devices) and radically different ways: the first was charged only once a day (every night), not during the day; the second was charged when it has completely shut down because of the battery’s going flat and the third was almost always on charger whenever possible. The difference in the battery capacity, based on the different ways of recharging, turned out to be astonishing: the second battery (which was always let go flat, and only after that was it put on a charger) could only hold slightly more than a third of the battery that was always on charger whenever possible. The latter battery, in addition, fared considerably (about 16%) better than the battery only regularly (every night) recharged.
Note that the blog post has a mistake (which has no effect on the credibility of the results): it states they will have exactly the same charge holding capabilities throughout their life, and, suddenly, they die (“They have a finite shelf life which starts from the day they are manufactured and their condition from then degrades to the point where they fail! This is not to be confused with their charge holding abilities which are very good for their full life! When they go they just go!”). This is, of course, incorrect: their capacity will degrade over time. Just an example: my HP iPAQ 2210, which I bought right after it was released in Europe, at first, shut down at 2-3% battery level. After about two years, this raised to about 20% and, after three years, this was already around 35-38%. This also shows – along with a multitude of other examples – that these batteries do lose capacity over time. Also note that, as I’ve also recommended several times, Battery University has a decent article on all these questions – except for, of course, real-world results like the above.
Verdict: ignore if somebody says the opposite. Recharge your handheld whenever possible.
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An excellent post and very valuable info.It'll certainly help out many,who believe that the batteries shud only be charged once a day or when it's almost finished or going flat,by this the life of the batteries is saved and prolonged as against to charging whenever possible or more than once in a day,this concept is believed as charging more than one time will create a new charging point every time and will not fully charge the battery,thus,will impact the charge retaining capabilities of the battery and ultimately die out soon.
You are absolutely correct in saying that "This is, of course, incorrect: their capacity will degrade over time."and "that these batteries do lose capacity over time",Of course,they have a finite life cycle from the day they are manufactured,infact every gadget,machinery,electric appliances,PCs,Tvs and all everyday utilities have a life cycle and will die out with passage of time and longer use.
It has been observed in this and many other forums,people posting that their devices have gone dead due to battery going flat as they forgot to charge it. Than it becomes a pain in the A** to get it recharged again and get the phone alive again, Therefore,to avoid this dreadful scenario,it is always better to get the battery charged whenever possible,CUZ IT'S GONNA DIE OUT SOMEDAY,for sure,whether you charge it once a day or when it's gone flat or charge it whenever possible,but definitely save yourself from the horrible situation of getting a dead phone,due to a flat battery and frustrating ways to get it charged again.
Just to mention here,it's my personal experience, as I myself got into this situation once,while in a hurry and urgency,I forgot to get the battery charged and didn't realize it was almost going flat,after a couple of hours,suddenly the phone went dead,I wanted to make some very important calls,but there was no way I cud get the phone Power On,frantically started to look for ways to get it charged as I didn't have the charger with me,I tried to get it charged through usb connection with the Pc,but NO GO,it never started charging and there were no lights on the phone,In short I tried in many ways to get it charged and phone started.
Even,when I got back home,tried it with the Wall charger,it refused to charge,I got horrified.took it to a service shop.They said that while my trying to get it charge through various methods and again n again trying to wake the phone,the Pulse of the battery has gone down from the level,which it requires to communicate with the phone and start charging,Ultimately,it has to be Jump Started to get it working,therefore,I made a rule of my everyday working to get it charged a couple of times during the day,Now I have never to fear and face that dreadful situation again,And let me point out here that I have not seen any degration in the charging or performance of the battery so far as I'm doing this since last six months or so.
Thank you for confirming my believes in charging for more than once is advisable and will not effect much on the battery charge retention and life cycle
Cheer
Good writing ! I didn't know that it affected the battery that much! Thanks!
You are correct in saying that only charging a device when it has run down to 0% (or close) is bad for Lithium Ion batteries. That incorrect advice is left over from the Nickel Cadmium (Ni-Cd) era, when it worked on batteries with that chemistry to prolong their life due to the "memory effect".
But I don't think saying that Li-Ion batteries should be charged "as often as possible" is quite right, because keeping them at or near 100% charge WILL shorten their life, just like keeping them at or near 0% will (but not as much admittedly).
If you want to maximize the life of your Li-Ion batteries, you should make sure that they don't get any hotter than 25 degrees celcius (77F), and you should try to keep them in a state of 40% to 60% charge as much as possible (that means take it out of the charger without letting it get to 100%!).
Of course keeping it between 40% and 60% only lets you use 20% of the battery's full capacity, which is not convenient at all! So the next best thing is to charge it to 100%, then recharge it when it gets down to 40%.
Letting it get below 40% is the most damaging, but constantly keeping it above 60% charge is also damaging in the long term.
One last tip: Li-Ion batteries last longer the slower you charge them. So charge them with USB from the computer rather than an AC mains adapter, as this is usually the slower method (USB from a computer contains 0.5 Amps of current, whereas many AC chargers supply 1.0 to 1.5 Amps, even though they may have a "USB" connector).
Everything above can be backed up by various sources, here is a very good one: http://www.batteryuniversity.com/parttwo-34.htm
Interesting you mention charging at different amperes. There are quite a few quick-charge standard battery charges around the place that always state they will boost the battery up to 80% quite fast then the remainder takes a further few hours. This also usually causes the batteries to become excessively hot.
The 110/230 Volt mains charger that came with my Trinity charges really fast but definitely heats it to over 25°C. However the mains to miniUSB charger that came with my cradle, and the one that came with my BT headset both charge at a much slower (and cooler) rate, likely to be 0.5 Amps. I checked out the labels and they all indicate the same ratings. I know, I should chuck the multimeter on them to test…
Maybe I’ll go back to using the cradle mains charger when I’m at home and my PC isn’t on (as if that ever happens)
sl9 said:
But I don't think saying that Li-Ion batteries should be charged "as often as possible" is quite right, because keeping them at or near 100% charge WILL shorten their life, just like keeping them at or near 0% will (but not as much admittedly).
If you want to maximize the life of your Li-Ion batteries, you should make sure that they don't get any hotter than 25 degrees celcius (77F), and you should try to keep them in a state of 40% to 60% charge as much as possible (that means take it out of the charger without letting it get to 100%!).
Of course keeping it between 40% and 60% only lets you use 20% of the battery's full capacity, which is not convenient at all! So the next best thing is to charge it to 100%, then recharge it when it gets down to 40%.
Letting it get below 40% is the most damaging, but constantly keeping it above 60% charge is also damaging in the long term.
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Yup, 60% is the best usage scenario. However,
1. it does have a severe problem: the reduced battery life (60% vs. 100%), which may render its usage problematic in some cases (when you do need the remaining 40%). That is, it's only really usable when you are absolutely sure you can recharge your device when it's still, say, abouve 30%, leaving you an about 30% usability area.
2. the advantage of keeping teh battery around 60% (as opposed to 100%), battery capacity saving-wise, isn't so prevalent than recharging the battery whenever possible. That is, while keeping the battery at around 60% does result in better charge holding after X time, it's net effect is still much lower than, say, letting the battery go flat. As can be seen in the linked report, you can almost completely kill (leaving about 40% of the original charge holding capability) a Li-Ion battery in no more than four months. The 60% rule (as opposed to the 100% one) has far less (albeit, of course, considerable) advantages - on the long run.
BTW, I do the following: I keep my spare batteries I requently (say, in general, once a week or two weeks) use at around 70-80% (it's, being halfway between 60% and 100%, a tradeoff) and batteries I don't use at all (for example, my old Casio Cassiopeia batteries) at 40%.
There is some really interesting discussion of this article at MoDaCo, HowardForums, FirstLoox, PPCT, XDA-Developers - well worth checking out for more info / discussion.
sl9 said:
One last tip: Li-Ion batteries last longer the slower you charge them. So charge them with USB from the computer rather than an AC mains adapter, as this is usually the slower method (USB from a computer contains 0.5 Amps of current, whereas many AC chargers supply 1.0 to 1.5 Amps, even though they may have a "USB" connector).
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A quick note: if you know your power source is only capable of providing, say, 0.5A's, you might want to make absolutely sure its voltage doesn't drop under, say, 4.5 Volts at 0.5A. A lot of power sources (this is perfectly natural with all kinds of power transformators) do this; then, the batteries / the phone's electronics starts to struggle with providing the necessay charging voltage (IIRC, 4.2 Volts).
Also, the permanent damage of (or caused by) these chargers can also be a problem - I don't think a cheapo notebook has decent voltage stabilizators. An expensive IBM / Lenovo Thinkpad will never cause any problem to a USB device (they have VERY good USB protection - I've myself found this out with my a31p once, when I, accidentally, made a short circuit on the USB). A cheapo notebook is likely to use the cheapest (read: parts that not necessarily can stand even 0.5 Ampers) parts.
I have a laptop and a phone, both using original batteries and both around 4 years old now. The laptop is a dell with a 7 aH Li-Ion battery and the phone is a Nokia 6310i with a factory Li-Polymer battery. As I said, original standard batteries that came in the original package. Both have only been used with company standard chargers - no quick force-feed cradles here.
If I start with the phone, it is one of the best I ever had. I don't make many calls on this phone, mainly text messages, and it spends the most of it's time just idling. At night I usually turn it off, sometimes I use the temporary profile option with tone/vibration off, as I sleep better knowing the phone will not wake me up. I had a collegue who bought the same type of phone as me, and we treated it way different. First of all, he used it a lot more. Second of all, the charger went in and out quite often, and he often used the phone while it was charging. I have consistently only charged this phone to 100%, usually overnight. Sometimes charging it when it was quite low, but most of the time after about a week. This phone last two weeks on standby (if used during daytime only), and after 4 years ... it still does! It was the first triband Nokia made (to my knowledge), and I got one of the first ones in stead of getting the third Ericsson T39m in the same year (kept failing!). My collegues phone did not even last a day on a full charge, in LESS THAN HALF A YEAR. Now, four years after, my phone still last me two weeks with the minor use I demand of it.
Most notable habits for handling the phone/battery:
Very seldom used during recharging
Almost always charged uninterrupted to 100% - in off position or without using it
Not so heavy use
My collegue on the other hand interrupted the charge before reaching 100%, used it while on the charger and his battery died down to almost no capacity sooooo fast.
As for my Laptop, it is a Dell Inspiron 8600, and after 4 years, it still runs almost two hours on the original battery, using internet, wireless and bluetooth simultaneously and not going into any kind of power save.
Below is the way I have generally used it:
I have seldom removed the battery while on mains, as I find it difficult and also enjoy the safety of the battery being there if I pull the chord, power outtage etc. Contrary to my phone, I use my laptop A LOT, like, daily, for many hours usually, sometimes all day. It is mainly work related, reading/writing documents, some graphic work and so on. Not so much watching movies, but sometimes certain programs like OCR or other runs keep the CPU to 100% for a while. I mainly keep the battery in and charged, and unless the ambient temperature is high or I sit with the laptop on top of my lap where my body heat heats the battery, I have not found the battery to heat up much. Even when the fan is going 100% on a heavy load, the battery temp seems OK. For various practical reasons, I have more often recently used my laptop on battery until just before it cuts out by itself. I must say I did not check if that makes the battery hot, but after 4 years, I still get almost two hours of use with wireless and bluetooth enabled. I have friends and collegues who replace the battery after one or two years, because it is down to almost nothing in capacity.
Any battery powered device I have had in the last 5 years or so I have been treating with these golden rules, and none of them have had to have batteries changed so far ...
Do not interrupt battery until it is done charging (unless on trickle charge, obviously)
Charge any time you like, as long as you obey the rule above
Do not place a heavy load on the device while it is charging after having been run on batteries (again, trickle charge is OK while on mains)
A good way to accomplish these rules is to have a habit of charging devices before you sleep, even before being worn down (charging not so likely to be interupted by sudden change of plans).
Having run my laptop for thousands of hours with battery inside and connected to mains, for me after 4 years it has not killed my battery.
This is not scientific research, but for me, it has worked for all my devices - for whatever reason. Those who complain their batteries die quickly seem to be the ones who pulls the charger whenever they want.
Although lithium batteries are somewhat different than the way humans store and use their energy, it seems to me there are some similarities:
Does not like it too hot or too cold
If not allowed to eat/charge fully on a regular basis, charging more often is necessary.
Can get annoyed if suddenly disrupted during feeding/charging.
If force fed, less energy can be taken up compared to a slow and easy feed.
This is not meant as proof, as in "because humans are like this, so are batteries", but to me, it just seems coincidental that there are some similarities. Me, personally, I eat one to three times a day. Yes, I can do with one meal a day, but two meals a day I think are optimum for me. Consistently eating 3 or more times a day makes my weight go up, I have been over 200 pounds for my 6'3" after being in a job for a year where I "was fed" too often. Now, I am fit and healthy at around 170 lbs, I seldom have headaches or fatigue, and I have an endurance like not many others! Without "charging" I can last a long time. Give me a good evening meal, and the next morning I can run a half marathon with no breakfast, just water.
Conclusion: Let the facts of real life be your proof instead of going after experts opinion. Let's have more experiments to find the real truth!
1, you're pretty fortunate your notebook battery is still going strong. I've never seen a notebook battery SO good - the situation you've described doesn't even seem to adhere to the laws of chemistry (that is, after two years, a Li-Ion battery kept consistently at 100% charging level is bound to lose at least 20% of its original capacity, independent of the usage).
2, the human vs. battery comparison, IMHO, isn't the best. Most feeding / intake specalists state one should prefer the way of "eat many times a day, but little each time" - that is, say, some 4-5 apples, tomatoes, cucumbers etc. a day, say, one (or two) every hour - at least this is what I do at work. I also refrain from eating a lot at lunchtime - I, generally, eat a quarter portion, and take the rest with me, continuously eating it later say, a bit every hours. This surely won't result in getting fat - on the contrary. If, of course, you don't keep your stomach at 100% load level
nice tip on eating...
I wrote specifically that it was not proof or anything, it just seems that some things are similar. My laptop batter has probably lost a little, but the way I have treated it, it still works after 4 years, where collegues/friends a long time ago would have had to get new batteries. I did not make specific measurements, but maybe a new battery would last me around 2.5 hours instead of two, but I have seen batteries that last 5 minutes, and they are less than 2 years old.
So what is a "good way" to kill a battery fast? I thought that stopping charging before 100% is one of the ways to kill a battery, but as soon as I see a test where it is proved that it is the other way around, I'd be happy not to have to wait for 100% before pulling the plug. But the mentioned Nokia test is only varying on when to start the recharging, not when to end it.
As for the comparison to humans ... I know they say you should eat many small meals a day, and that is great if you measure your meals precisely in calories and content. But for a normal, daily unscientific diet, many of those people I hear reiterate the "eat many but small meals to loose weight" have them selves ... weight problems. I have proven that it works (for me), I can see my weight increase when I get into periods of eating 3 or more meals a day. Same with my batteries. I can see they last a long time, where other peoples batteries die - so ... why does it work then?
I know this is kind of an old post (hah) but just an update about Li-Ion batteries:
The final 5-10% of charging is the part that does the most "wear and tear" of the whole charge process, this is the reason IBM (now Lenovo) Thinkpads don't charge the final bit all the time. So avoid *topping off* when charging. If done within the normal charging it shouldn't be a problem.
Simple Guidelines (taken from: http://www.batteryuniversity.com/parttwo-34.htm)
* Avoid frequent full discharges because this puts additional strain on the battery. Several partial discharges with frequent recharges are better for lithium-ion than one deep one. Recharging a partially charged lithium-ion does not cause harm because there is no memory. (In this respect, lithium-ion differs from nickel-based batteries.) Short battery life in a laptop is mainly cause by heat rather than charge / discharge patterns.
* Batteries with fuel gauge (laptops) should be calibrated by applying a deliberate full discharge once every 30 charges. Running the pack down in the equipment does this. If ignored, the fuel gauge will become increasingly less accurate and in some cases cut off the device prematurely.
* Keep the lithium-ion battery cool. Avoid a hot car. For prolonged storage, keep the battery at a 40% charge level.
* Consider removing the battery from a laptop when running on fixed power. (Some laptop manufacturers are concerned about dust and moisture accumulating inside the battery casing.)
* Avoid purchasing spare lithium-ion batteries for later use. Observe manufacturing dates. Do not buy old stock, even if sold at clearance prices.
* If you have a spare lithium-ion battery, use one to the fullest and keep the other cool by placing it in the refrigerator. Do not freeze the battery. For best results, store the battery at 40% state-of-charge.
does that mean if you have two batteries, you should only use one most of the time and keep the other one in storage?
I would have thought it would be better to alternate between the two every week or something. Nothing worse than having the battery in storage for a few months and then when you actually need it on a trip you find that it only has 50% capacity
Actually the article says that you should "store" batteries at 40% if you're keeping one as a backup, I think the best option would be to alternate them. Keeping one stored at 100% actually causes it to lose its charge FASTER than one stored at 40%
FYI : as you are charging/discharging your battery, the hysteresis threshold (this is called like this in electronic) is decreasing, when it's new it still at 100% then 99%,98%,97% etc
This is the reason why sometimes when you think your battery is fully loaded, his load stops at the hysteresis threshold.
In some case it's possible to raise this hysteresis threshold (when the battery is recent). and to retrieve the full charge.
Here is a tips that I use since some years (my ipaq 3660)
When your device show your battery 100% loaded (of course it's not) the LED light should go off. if you unplug your power AC, and plug it back, and if you notice that your device is loading a few seconds (3-5 sec) then you are raising the hysteresis threshold. of course not to 100%, but a little.
now, put a dvd movie, sit down, and repeat the tips as much as the light doesn't show the device is charging a few seconds. I mean is your battery is full loaded then when you plug back the power ac it should not charge again. so your hysteresis threshold is probably at 100% and your battery should work has a new one.
sorry if my english isn't good enough for this contrib.
From http://www.wmskins.com/blog/how-to-increase-battery-life-of-windows-mobiles:
1. A Lithium Ion battery should never be charged to 100% or fully Discharged. The famous 80-20 rule is applicable here as well, though in a different way. Charging to 80% increases battery life.
2. Don’t wait for full discharge, charge it frequently. Keeping the battery near to 80% always, gives better life. This is also what many vendors claim as “memory effect”.
I followed that advice and then after a few weeks, when once I charged it to 100%, it dropped quickly to 80%! and has been like that since. now I don't give a damn to that rule and charge my phone to 100% instead.
At this point, I would advise you do a full charge and deep discharge of your phone. Just to allow the phone to calibrate itself to the battery again.
However, I would advise against running programs to intentionally drain it at a high draw. So instead of playing 5 hours of FPSECE to drain it flat, just let it sit on standby and use it as you normally would, until it dies. Then charge it back up in one continuous charge (refrain from unplugging until it goes back to 100%). Hopefully that will restore the accuracy of your battery meter by a bit.
And IMHO, the article you included discusses things about batteries that are no longer true....
2. Don’t wait for full discharge, charge it frequently. Keeping the battery near to 80% always, gives better life. This is also what many vendors claim as “memory effect”.
No. "Memory effect" is, in laymen terms, the battery not being able to hold above a certain charge after being repeatedly discharged from the same capacity. E.g. being discharged at 80%. It doesn't "give battery life" -- in fact it kills your battery's capacity.
This is a term more relevant for old NiCd batteries. LiONs and most NiMH batteries have very weak/no memory effect.
3. Every battery has limited Full charge-discharge cycles. Of the order of 300+. In other words a typical phone battery can be fully charged/discharged 300 times. Doing more frequent charges, as specified in point #2, will increase overall life.
Partially true. Every battery can be charged a number of times before its ability to hold a charge deteriorates. Usually this is around 300, though the exact number varies between individual batteries. However, the concept of a "cycle" isn't exact -- just because you charged from 60-80% (or whatever) doesn't mean you didn't use a cycle. It's really a continuum, and should only be conceptualized as the battery losing its ability to be charged and hold a charge, the more times you charge it.
4. During first time use (when the battery is new) don`t use it till its fully charged. This is why it is always written on manuals “let the device charge for 2-3 hours”.
The necessity of preconditioning is controversial now. There is little evidence to suggest that devices nowadays benefit from preconditioning, and likewise there is little evidence that not doing so harms battery longevity. Many manuals these days simply omit to mention preconditioning.
5. Best way to increase battery life is Not to use it. If you keep AC power plugged in on your phones, keeping the battery at 80% (as in #1), your battery will last longer. Though discharging it once in a month would be must in such cases.
Partially true. Not using your battery does indeed help its longevity, but not by plugging into the AC. Heat is a LiON battery's enemy, and plugging it into your wall will generate heat that is ultimately bad. This translates to laptop batteries as well -- if you want to store a laptop battery, the best bet is to discharge it to 40%, then put it somewhere cool (even the fridge if you want).
Also I would say doing a deep discharge once a month is too frequent. Once every 2 or even 3 months is more appropriate.
Finally, LiON batteries themselves have a shelf life. So even if you let them sit there, they will lose their function after a few years. Just so yo uknow.
6. Surrounding temperature contributes a lot. Colder weather gives better battery life. So make sure your cellphone doesn’t overheat, if it does, find ways to keep it cool.
True. And that's why you shouldn't leave it plugged in.
Learn more about batteries here: http://www.batteryuniversity.com/
felixdd said:
E.g. being discharged at 80%. It doesn't "give battery life" -- in fact it kills your battery's capacity.
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is that so? why? so i guess now my battery's capacity has lessened. damn the article.
have drained my battery to 1% and charged it to 100%. let's see how it goes from here..
good subject for discusion. WM user or not the battery life and the tricks of LION only a few knows.
1.i have two batteries for my HTC. he original battery and one with 2800mAh. Does my phone cofused if i change tha batteries aternately?
2. if ai want to work with my phone for hours is it better to connect it with the charger?
3. Wich kind of charging is better? with USB cable from pc or wall charger.
I have the option in my BIOS for my laptop which says an 80% charge will prolong the lifespan of the battery.
Batteries must undergo a fair bit of research (for environmental impact reasons if nothing else!) and to have such a bold statement to me indicates that its an obvious fact to battery researchers.
Given ive lay in bed this morning messing about on facebook and setting up rss feeds on my phone and emptied a full battery I dont think Id ever stop charging at 80%. Ill just buy another battery!
i really doubt cold weather improves battery life, numerous times my family and I brought electronic products to cold countries and the Battery life always drops at a much quicker rate
dan138zig said:
is that so? why? so i guess now my battery's capacity has lessened. damn the article.
have drained my battery to 1% and charged it to 100%. let's see how it goes from here..
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You are taking what i said out of context.
What I'm saying is that IF your battery had a memory effect as the original article claimed, then charging the battery to only 80 will create a memory at 80, which would be worse for your battery. I'm merely trying to point out an inconsistency in there article.
However, I went on to say that li ON batteries do not have a memory effect. So more relevant to the real world is the fact that our batteries will not experience memory as claimed by the article.
Two main things kill lithium batteries, heat and time as they promote deposits forming in the electrolyte, which reduces the capacity of the battery.
So, buying a "spare" battery at the time you buy a phone with a plan on using it when the original battery starts to fail is a bad idea as the spare battery would be slowly deterorating on the shelf.
Deep charges rather than top up charges are bad as they produce more heat inside the battery, although doing it if your battery doesn't seem to be holding it's chage is a good idea as it should recalibrate the phone's battery level software.
To paraphrase the old saying, " blogs and opinions are like a##holes, everyone has one "
I have followed the links in this thread and so far I have just read unsubstantiated opinion.
I have used " cordless " electronics for most of my life and have used all kinds of batteries extensively as well as talked to company reps and battery " experts ".
Nickel Cadmium batteries had memories. The batteries had to be conditioned and fully charged and discharged. The new Lithium Ion batteries were advantageous , not only because they held a bigger charge and lasted longer, but also because they have NO memory. The latest example being, I regularly charged my Tilt battery to all levels of charge. Mostly 100% everyday and ran it down to 5% most times before charging it again. I used it a lot and charged it a lot. and it lasted 2 yrs.
The only difference I have really noticed in batteries has nothing to do with the way you charge it. It has to do with " getting what you pay for " I have had quality batteries really show their quality and $ 12 batteries give me up to and only my $12 worth.
Charging Lithium Ion Batteries to 80%
denco7 said:
To paraphrase the old saying, " blogs and opinions are like a##holes, everyone has one "
I have followed the links in this thread and so far I have just read unsubstantiated opinion.
I have used " cordless " electronics for most of my life and have used all kinds of batteries extensively as well as talked to company reps and battery " experts ".
Nickel Cadmium batteries had memories. The batteries had to be conditioned and fully charged and discharged. The new Lithium Ion batteries were advantageous , not only because they held a bigger charge and lasted longer, but also because they have NO memory. The latest example being, I regularly charged my Tilt battery to all levels of charge. Mostly 100% everyday and ran it down to 5% most times before charging it again. I used it a lot and charged it a lot. and it lasted 2 yrs.
The only difference I have really noticed in batteries has nothing to do with the way you charge it. It has to do with " getting what you pay for " I have had quality batteries really show their quality and $ 12 batteries give me up to and only my $12 worth.
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I have a Nissan Leaf. It is clear that the engineers have spent a LOT of time thinking about how to maximize the life of the battery in the car. One of the options the car come with is to ALWAYS charge the batteries to 80%. In fact, they've gone as far as to add a button on the dashboard to override that setting in cases where a 100% charge is needed. According to the documentation that comes with the car, this is the single most important step to prolonging battery life. Next is frequent charges. Next is monitoring battery temperature which is constantly shown in a BIG display on the dashboard. In general, a good way to think about a lithium ion battery is that over its life you're trying to maximize the amount of power stored and then subsequently removed from the device. From the research I've done, if the "charging/discharging life" of the battery were cycles that swung from 100% to 0% you might get X kwHrs of power "moved" through the battery, yet if you were to limit charges to 80% and constantly charge it after each use, you could expect at least 2X! So it's a big deal. I live in Bellevue, Washington which has a very mild climate and have put 26,000 miles on this car in the last 2 years, making mostly small 3-to-20 mile trips, and I routinely charge the car when I pull into the garage, and would estimate that the battery has been charged well over 1000 times. To date, there is no detectable loss in battery capacity; the first indication of which would appear on the car's instrumentation when just over 4% of the charging capacity of the car has been lost.
My Sony VAIO Pro 13 actually offers the 80/20 option in Power Settings. However, I do not use it.
There is no “break-in” or “conditioning” required for the Li-ion batteries. They do not need the old “fully discharge – fully charge” routine for the initial three charges as was recommended on older battery technologies. For a number of years now, the advice has been to fully drain a new rechargeble battery at least three times in a row, then do so at least once a month from then on in order to ‘condition’ it. This is designed to prevent ‘memory’ effects and to prolong the life and capacity of the rechargeable battery.
Unfortunately, it appears that this advice is not only incorrect but could be causing battery damage in that it’s reducing the shelf-life of your equipment.
Modern Li-ion batteries apparently do not suffer from memory effects. All that matters is how many recharging cycles they support. The more cycles they are put through, the less effective they become at holding a charge down the line. The caveat, however, is that you can accelerate their decline by forcing them to drain deeper and deeper.
According to Battery University, the depth-of-discharge on a Li-ion device will determine its ultimate cycle count. What this means in practice is that you should recharge your battery frequently and let it drain as little as possible in between recharges. Partial discharges are better.
As expected, high temperatures are also disastrous to the lifespan of Li-ion batteries. Interestingly, high-voltage charging has a similar effect. Higher voltages will charge the battery faster but damage it. The article suggests that user-regulated voltages for laptop batteries might be a useful way to allow the consumer to decide which is more important to them in their daily useage – faster recharge or longer life.
Always store a Li-ion battery full charged. Not doing so will reduce its lifespan and capacity.
Similarly, it would seem that keeping it connected to a power supply when it is 100% charged is not very wise either.
Thanks for posting this! I was wondering something similar after I got my Sensation. I was looking to improve my battery life and was wondering if the fact that I've let my battery discharge irregularly only a handful of times along with hardly ever leaving it off the USB laptop cable at home had anything to do with it. I'll be sure not to discharge it unnecessarily from now on.
Tacjim said:
There is no “break-in” or “conditioning” required for the Li-ion batteries. They do not need the old “fully discharge – fully charge” routine for the initial three charges as was recommended on older battery technologies. For a number of years now, the advice has been to fully drain a new rechargeble battery at least three times in a row, then do so at least once a month from then on in order to ‘condition’ it. This is designed to prevent ‘memory’ effects and to prolong the life and capacity of the rechargeable battery.
Unfortunately, it appears that this advice is not only incorrect but could be causing battery damage in that it’s reducing the shelf-life of your equipment.
Modern Li-ion batteries apparently do not suffer from memory effects. All that matters is how many recharging cycles they support. The more cycles they are put through, the less effective they become at holding a charge down the line. The caveat, however, is that you can accelerate their decline by forcing them to drain deeper and deeper.
According to Battery University, the depth-of-discharge on a Li-ion device will determine its ultimate cycle count. What this means in practice is that you should recharge your battery frequently and let it drain as little as possible in between recharges. Partial discharges are better.
As expected, high temperatures are also disastrous to the lifespan of Li-ion batteries. Interestingly, high-voltage charging has a similar effect. Higher voltages will charge the battery faster but damage it. The article suggests that user-regulated voltages for laptop batteries might be a useful way to allow the consumer to decide which is more important to them in their daily useage – faster recharge or longer life.
Always store a Li-ion battery full charged. Not doing so will reduce its lifespan and capacity.
Similarly, it would seem that keeping it connected to a power supply when it is 100% charged is not very wise either.
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I have to disagree with this to an extent, as its preferred to discharge and recharge the first times, as it freshens the cells and calibrates the phone to the battery.
But after this you should recharge it when it's at 30-40%
Also you should not leave a lithium batter fully charged when storing it, but rather have it at 60% and throw it in the refrigerator. This is what i have been doing to all mine batteries, but don't let it freeze though, this will harm the battery!
There's nothing worse than a know-it-all Uni student! If there's a real technician or scientist on the matter I would like to hear their advice.
As I am a mechanical technician I use a variety of battery powered tools all of which are Li-ion, I like to condition all my batteries but for the few that cannot be conditioned due to lack of time those particular batteries are, weaker, last less time and overall die out faster.
Flashmore said:
There's nothing worse than a know-it-all Uni student! If there's a real technician or scientist on the matter I would like to hear their advice.
As I am a mechanical technician I use a variety of battery powered tools all of which are Li-ion, I like to condition all my batteries but for the few that cannot be conditioned due to lack of time those particular batteries are, weaker, last less time and overall die out faster.
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Haha, it's not a Uni student, its batter university, a well known webpage
http://batteryuniversity.com/
Utking said:
Haha, it's not a Uni student, its batter university, a well known webpage
http://batteryuniversity.com/
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I see, so I suppose it just posted this all on its own?
Flashmore said:
I see, so I suppose it just posted this all on its own?
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No this man did: Isidor Buchmann
http://www.cadex.com/about/people.asp
http://www.myistop.com/blogs/greenbatterys/isidor-buchmann-battery
http://nutsvolts.texterity.com/nutsvolts/200612/?folio=58#pg58
I believe i can say i trust him
Are you sure? sounds more like Dracula's side kick, haha
Utking said:
I have to disagree with this to an extent, as its preferred to discharge and recharge the first times, as it freshens the cells and calibrates the phone to the battery.
But after this you should recharge it when it's at 30-40%
Also you should not leave a lithium batter fully charged when storing it, but rather have it at 60% and throw it in the refrigerator. This is what i have been doing to all mine batteries, but don't let it freeze though, this will harm the battery!
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This is exactly what I do. Last time I drained a phone down to 0% it killed the battery and wouldn't hold charge like it used to (was fine before I did it). Was on an old LG. Same thing happened to a friends phone too. From then on I try and tell everyone to never do it as well.
While I'm sure you have your sources, I have to disagree. When I got my vibrant, I didn't condition it at all, battery life was horrible. I bought a new battery (the same one), conditioned it, and it was 10000x better.
But I do agree that batteries have become much greater than they used to be about this.
Batteries are always a fun topic
This comes from rooted phones and batterystats.bin
It's recommended when you flash your new ROM that you turn off the phone. Than fully charge it. And while still charging removing batterystats.bin so your android phone knows 100% and than let it die down so it knows 0%.
I think that is where this all came from.
Flashmore said:
There's nothing worse than a know-it-all Uni student! If there's a real technician or scientist on the matter I would like to hear their advice.
As I am a mechanical technician I use a variety of battery powered tools all of which are Li-ion, I like to condition all my batteries but for the few that cannot be conditioned due to lack of time those particular batteries are, weaker, last less time and overall die out faster.
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The only thing I'm trying to do is help people from shortening the life of their batteries by listening to people who don't have a clue what they're talking about. Since you seem to spout out that "unconditioned" lithium Ion batteries are weaker, last less time and die out faster...lets see some professional resources from your "know it all" conclusion?
By no means an expert, just putting in my 2cent, i think people seem to mix the ideas of battery conditioning and recalibration. I think it IS useful to recalibrate batteries by draining the battery to 0% so the phone can recognize the accurate battery levels. However in terms of the battery, its always the same and there is no "reconditioning". the drain/recharge cycle is only useful for the PHONE for accurate recognition of battery level.
personally, i havn't bought into the conditioning aspect.. i can afford the $10-$15 it takes to replace a battery when it dies out and i always charge before it is dead (min 30%); (on the sensation so i dont lose temp root) but also because usually it would take 10 minutes or so for it to get enough juice to turn back on (in the iphones/touch's case.. but in any case i had always learnt that NiMH batteries you could drain fully and make sure to fully charge before you use them again; whereas Li-ion you could charge at 30% keep your good life and use the device at the same time pretty simple really
c19932 said:
By no means an expert, just putting in my 2cent, i think people seem to mix the ideas of battery conditioning and recalibration. I think it IS useful to recalibrate batteries by draining the battery to 0% so the phone can recognize the accurate battery levels. However in terms of the battery, its always the same and there is no "reconditioning". the drain/recharge cycle is only useful for the PHONE for accurate recognition of battery level.
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Agreed. From what I've read this hasn't anything to do with battery capacity or memory effect, it's so the phone can calibrate itself correctly to the battery inserted using the batterystats file giving a better indication of peak to zero.
Tacjim said:
The only thing I'm trying to do is help people from shortening the life of their batteries by listening to people who don't have a clue what they're talking about. Since you seem to spout out that "unconditioned" lithium Ion batteries are weaker, last less time and die out faster...lets see some professional resources from your "know it all" conclusion?
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Well you know what they say it takes one to know one!
As well as that I havent "spouted" anything (well not here anyway hehe)
My conclusion is this, dont believe everything you read, what a cliché
Seriously though I already gave my "real" practical know-it-all conclusion so unless you have somethijng to disprove it go and you know what
will fast charging will damage battery.?
I want to use fast charger for Nexus 5. Original charger gives 5.6 volts and 1.2 Ampere output.
Some post I found on xda which shows that fast charging working perfect on nexus 5,
can OP tell me that fast charging will affect battery or not? If it affects then how can I find its getting affected?
Thread which shows nexus 5 fast charging works perfectly.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/goo.../hands-best-fastest-cheapest-nexus-5-t2729066