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HEy all
i was using my brothers iPhone earlier on and i couldnt help but notice how responsive his screen is to finger touches! is this something that is unique to the iphone (i.e hardware based) or is there anything to make WM phones that responsive?
Its due to the software being designed with animation in mind, and using graphics accelerators.
To get the same in WM would mean a rewrite of the whole UI basically, but 3rd party software can approximate it.
Surur
Actually it's the hardware too. on the iPhone there's no need for pressure (like on our PPCs). It's enough to touch the screen and it senses it.
Hardware. The iPhone uses an electrostatic like touchscreen while WM uses a pressure sensitive one. The good with the iPhone is that it's sensitive and you can have a hard screen (like the glass they use), but you can't use a stylus or do it with gloves on.
Good bumper sticker
WM USERS DO IT WITH GLOVES ON lol
You mean to tell me that the iphone has one theme,limited customisation and NO stylus?Have they heard of Calligrapher? Then again,guess thats why they call it the iPHONE.I get it now.
Vukile said:
You mean to tell me that the iphone has one theme,limited customisation and NO stylus?Have they heard of Calligrapher? Then again,guess thats why they call it the iPHONE.I get it now.
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limited customization for now!
they will start releasing the ability to use 3rd party apps. Currently, you have to hack through it, inorder to use 3rd party apps (that voids your warrenty)
RPG0 said:
Actually it's the hardware too. on the iPhone there's no need for pressure (like on our PPCs). It's enough to touch the screen and it senses it.
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If you played with touchflo sensitivity on the kaiser etc you will see it does not take much pressure at all for touch to be sensed. Its the software which is more responsive.
Surur
I stumbled somewhere on the net that the iphone screen can sense heat of the fingers that is why its so responsive. But it sure'll give problems over a period of time.
surur said:
If you played with touchflo sensitivity on the kaiser etc you will see it does not take much pressure at all for touch to be sensed. Its the software which is more responsive.
Surur
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You, my friend, are wrong !
I actually own a Kaiser, and i bought my wife a Touch, so i assume i have two of the most finger friendly HTCs out there atm.
I also had a chance to play with an iPhone a little.
It's the hardware that makes the iPhone finger-friendly, unless you don't mind putting some oil on your fingers when using HTC's pressure sensitive screen - it's not that you have to press hard, but you have to press and move, and the screen isn't slippery (unless your screen is really dirty).
You do have a point about the responsiveness of the iPhone, but there are (a few) apps on WM that are pretty fast and the finger thingy is still not that pleasant.
Also, our touchscreens "feature" a lag, which you can see when drawing: draw something and look carefully, you'll see the line is draw a little behind the stylus (don't tell me it's the app, i know for sure there's a 100-200ms lag on input)
Bottomline: i wouldn't trade any of my WM devices for an iPhone, but the iPhone touchscreen really is better - finger-wise, because not being able to use a stylus kinda sucks big time.
I did a list of downsides for each (only in relation to each other).
Downsides of Kaiser:
- relatively Big and heavy.
Downsides of Touch Cruise: (from more worse to less worse)
- No cheap version (like AT&T's TILT - $500 USD).
- Insensitive touch screen.
- Bad reception on Bluetooth.
- Mediocre build quality (loose volume control, etc.)
- No hardware keyboard (becomes a bigger problem if the touch screen is insensitive).
- Smaller xda community (might change in the future).
It seems like the choice should be easy, but I just don't know how easy it will be for me to live with a 200 gram brick in my pocket...
As a former kaiser and now a polaris owner, I can say:
The Polaris is cheaper than the kaiser
the touch screen works just fine (same as with the tilt)
community for polaris & kaiser is almost the same
the polaris has more & newer functionality (applies to original rom)
As a former kaiser and now a polaris owner, I can say:
The Polaris is cheaper than the kaiser
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As I said, for the Kaiser there is the cheaper option of going with the AT&T TILT, which can be had NEW (with warranty) for $450-500 USD on ebay. The lowest price on ebay for which the Polaris can be bought is around $700 USD. That's a HUGE price difference, for two products which basically have similar functions and hardware.
the touch screen works just fine (same as with the tilt)
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I've read just too many posts from people with the Polaris saying the touch screen is insensitive. Are you saying it's a non issue and both the touch screen sensitivity of the Polaris is not worse than the Kaiser ? (it's important for me to hear it from someone who came from the Kaiser).
Noam23 said:
I did a list of downsides for each (only in relation to each other).
Downsides of Kaiser:
- relatively Big and heavy.
Downsides of Touch Cruise: (from more worse to less worse)
- No cheap version (like AT&T's TILT - $500 USD).
- Insensitive touch screen.
- Bad reception on Bluetooth.
- Mediocre build quality (loose volume control, etc.)
- No hardware keyboard (becomes a bigger problem if the touch screen is insensitive).
- Smaller xda community (might change in the future).
It seems like the choice should be easy, but I just don't know how easy it will be for me to live with a 200 gram brick in my pocket...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I had a kaiser for 1 month or 2 also then sold it because I realized I didn't use the hardware keyboard as much as I thought I did.
When I took the cruise out of the box I thought it was a fake phone because it is lighter then the kaiser (obviously) and my s730, hell, even lighter then my Motorola v60 I think! lol
Here was my mini list
Kaiser:
More mechanical components mean greater chances of something physically breaking/wearing down. I drop kaiser on the city bus, I am screwed!
jog wheel works fine, but it's a little loose sometimes too, like the cruise volume slider (this thing is almost useless at the moment unless I can "work it in")
The hard keys on the front are great, but on a lot of kaisers, they are loose. I had two kaisers, and both hard key face plates were loose. had to send the first one back because depending on how much the plate had slid, i couldn't go up or down with the d pad.
I really liked the touch keypad that i installed on the kaiser, but the buttons were harder to press with thumb in corners or a long the side cuz of the groove where the screen meets the casing.
Kaiser is around the same size, but just a lot thicker obviously.
Thoughts on the cruise so far;
Volume slider sucks ass, have to use my nail to move it. Luckily whatever i am listening to i can either use that REALLY cool dial pad/jog wheel thing. I set hat more than I used the kaiser jog wheel. Or I use my headset.
The screen is flush with the sides and tops of the casing, so hitting buttons on the corners or sides are no problem, but if you have a case then it's the same as having a kaiser.
About the insensitive screen. I have to agree with you on that somewhat. With the kaiser, it looks like what's there is just the screen. But with the cruise, it looks like the screen is underneath another layer of something. This is how we have the flush face with the cruise, there is something else over the screen that the kaiser does not(i don't think at last) have. sometimes if you press hard enough (which you shouldn't have to do ) you can feel your thumb hit the "second screen" (the actual lcd), not the thing that we actually touch on top). It's hard to explain clearly
I have sensitives on very high using kaisertweak and playing with reg keys. I've got it pretty close to sensitivity of kaiser now. I do notice with cube i have to press a little hard to OPEN it, but not left or right or close it. kind of weird.
It's true about the communities, it is a little small right now, but also I think tytn i had abig following so it's natural tytn II would now also. but again, cruise and tytn ii are pretty much the same inside.
I bought my cruise for 699 Canadian, new.
The radio is really cool too (amazing, for such a high tech modern device, something as old school as an FM radio is what really impresses me.. lol)
Another gripe so far about cruise is that i dont know if its the rom i am using, or if its all roms, or if it's the extra layer over the screen, is that when I am typing out a message, with ANY keyboard, but ONLY in the messaging application, i get no feedback from the keys. Nothing highlights if i press it quickly. The letter appears, which is great, but i don't see any of the keys being highlighted unless i hold onto it longer. This could be the rom id downloaded, but i tried on 2 roms I think, and it might have even been like this on the original rom too, I can't remember. I am still trying to figure it out. But visual key feedback is very important to me. I didn't have that problem with the touch keyboard installed on the kaiser. I think I'll do some more testing on that tonight actually.
A few other things.. haha, on a roll.
With the Kaiser.. I noticed that the way I hold it with one had, my pointing finger woudl ALWAYS land on the damn camera lens because the lens is on the top half of the casing the back. Pretty annoying to obsessively clean that lens. With the cruise, the main camera is in the middle, and my finger does not touch it
I do admit the Kaiser is nicer to actually hold because of the rounder corners and it's thickness. If fits in the hand better.
The cruise has more of a rectangular/pointy shape. It takes a little getting use to but I didn't really notice the difference until today. Also, depends on how you hold it i guess.
Kaiser (i've never owned one, although I have a Hermes)too thick....looks dated (very shallow statement..I know)
Polaris..I've never had a problem with the touch screen...barring ofcourse when you try to select a different SIP from the taskbar.
The PocketCM keyboard is one the best touch software around...very intellegent...I was never a texter..but with this keyboard I very rarely have to backtrack my typing...and in general touch software is only going to get better.
besides IMVPO I dont like thick pullout keypads....
Just my 2 pence worth...
briggs81,
Thank you for your words.
From what you say I think I'll go with the TILT. I simply can't justify paying $200 USD more for the cruise. If they were both at the same price, I would have taken the cruise with its faults, but the price difference is the last straw.
In the following year I'm sure lots of great devices wil come out, including probably HTC devices with proper video drivers. We should always be ready to upgrade, and I don't feel the cruise is such a good investment at this time (if you're on a budget, that is).
Screen insensitive??? Lol, with the right tweak the screen is to sensitive haha...mine is quick and very alert for touches.
Yzord said:
Screen insensitive??? Lol, with the right tweak the screen is to sensitive haha...mine is quick and very alert for touches.
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Maybe on your device, and in your opinion. No point in laughing.
Don't know about everyone else, but my screen is extremely sensitive, it has never missed a tap EVER. FYI, I roll w/o a screen protector (they ruin the look too much imo but I always keep the phone in its suede case when not in use). BTW, Kaiser is really a brick compared to the Polaris, and the polaris is pretty much a one handed phone for me whereas the Kaiser is definitely not, furthermore as far as looks there is really no competition. However, if you need the keyboard Kaiser is clearly the only choice. I emphasize need, bc you will most likely find that you get along just fine with the onscreen touch keyboard.
briggs81 said:
Maybe on your device, and in your opinion. No point in laughing.
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No... this is true. There is not any touch-sensitivity problems with Polaris as it can easily (very easily) can be improved with some registry tweaks.
I own one of the first Touch Cruises (first one reported here in the Forum) and I also have a Kaiser for conducting an end-user custom ROM review. I am free to put my sim card in either device, but it always ends up in the Cruise. I have to force myself to keep the Kaiser active for any time over a few hours.
With the Kaiser custom ROM, I have all of the TouchFlo interface features as the Cruise. I have never perceived a problem with the screen sensitivity on the Cruise. To the contrary, I have more struggles with the Kaiser and most often, I find the landscape/portrait getting out of sync due to accidentally nudging the screen slider on then back off before the swap has time to apply. If you're bothered by the pointy corners on the Cruise, get the Orbit II but this is really only cosmetics. For me I have no issues with the volume slider on the Crusie. The scroll wheel is kind of free and easy, but for the limited number of times I've ever needed to use it, it works fine. I think you can tell which device I prefer. For me, even if it were $200-$250 less for the AT&T Tilt, I don't like it sitting side by side with the Cruise.
Indeed you can edit the registry setting for the sensitivity of the screen, although it is not needed (atleast for me).
I find it strange that you have to pay 200 dollars more for a cruise then a kaiser.
A kaiser here costs around 670 euro, the cruise costs about 500 euro
Also the pictures I am taking have far more better quality then on the kaiser.
Maybe my lense on the kaiser wasnt clean enough, i don't know.
But as said before here, the position of the camera is way better then on the kaiser. No more fears for dirty fingers on the lense
I switched from kaiser to touch cruise and until now i hadnt have one moment of regret
Damn it guys, you are making this decision harder for me
Regarding the screen of the touch cruise, how can you protect it if it's on the same plane with the sides of the device, I mean, how will the screen protector stay in one place and not move ?
I find it strange that you have to pay 200 dollars more for a cruise then a kaiser.
A kaiser here costs around 670 euro, the cruise costs about 500 euro
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Click to collapse
That's because you don't have the AT&T TILT version of the Kaiser in europe.
Regarding the screen of the touch cruise, how can you protect it if it's on the same plane with the sides of the device, I mean, how will the screen protector stay in one place and not move ?
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The TC comes with a screen protector which sticks to the screen via adhesive (I haven't put it on though as I'm careful with the phone and keep it in its oem suede/microfiber case when I'm not on the phone).
BTW, I was actually in a position to get the ATT Tilt for just $100 after rebates and discounts...I still chose the Touch Cruise as its ridiculously better looking and a lot more usable for me as the flush screen paired w/Touch Flo allows for one handed usage (one-handed usage is key for me, esp as I'm a former Smartphone user).
FYI: I did pick up another smartphone from ATT to sell on eBay so that I could in a way subsidize the cost of the Polaris.
on tuch cruise screen sensitivity for finger, not for stylus. so its easy for finger & hard for stylus.
The TC comes with a screen protector which sticks to the screen via adhesive (I haven't put it on though as I'm careful with the phone and keep it in its oem suede/microfiber case when I'm not on the phone).
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But can't it still catch a scratch from the stylus ?, is the screen of the touch cruise less prone to scratches ? (like the Iphone)
Also, using adhesive will destroy the look of the phone, no ?, and how will you take it off if you want without leaving residue ?
on tuch cruise screen sensitivity is for finger, not for stylus. so its easy for finger & hard for stylus.
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Really, it will be easier using a stylus with the Kaiser than with the Cuise ?, a lot of software is still for stylus only...
I have never found a need for using a screen protector on any of my devices. As they have been passed down through my teenage sons, they too have learned proper care and use of the screens. With the Cruise, I definitely don't like to prospect of having a 'sticker' on the face if it. Just learn how to properly care for and use your screen and it will last.
I have never found a need for using a screen protector on any of my devices. As they have been passed down through my teenage sons, they too have learned proper care and use of the screens. With the Cruise, I definitely don't like to prospect of having a 'sticker' on the face if it. Just learn how to properly care for and use your screen and it will last.
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I intend to put the phone in my jean's pocket (without anything else) with the screen toward the leg.
Could this thing cause a problem ?
alipi2007 said:
on tuch cruise screen sensitivity for finger, not for stylus. so its easy for finger & hard for stylus.
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I don't have this issue, its easy for me to use my finger just as it is easy to use the stylus. Both require very little pressure. I did use a Kaiser in a shop once, and it actually required a lot of pressure (prob due screen protector they had installed on it).
I intend to put the phone in my jean's pocket (without anything else) with the screen toward the leg.
Could this thing cause a problem ?
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I wouldn't think so.... but I would still use the oem suede/microfiber sheath, as its extremely thin and doesn't add to the bulk of the device, but protects it from lint, and any inadverdent scratches just in case something happens to already be in your pocket.
But can't it still catch a scratch from the stylus ?, is the screen of the touch cruise less prone to scratches ? (like the Iphone)
Also, using adhesive will destroy the look of the phone, no ?, and how will you take it off if you want without leaving residue ?
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The screen seems very resistant to scratches from the stylus and the stylus glides across the screen without any resistance. In fact, you got me curious and I applied a moderate amount of strength to the stylus just to see and its still smooth as silk without any scratching.
As far as the adhesive from the screen protector, my guess is that this is a non-issue. I don't use screen protectors as they tend to look kind of cheap, but I'd imagine if it did leave any residue behind, it could be cleaned up fairly easily.
Capacitive screen may feature multitouch, but this seems to come with the price of losing the stylus.
As user coming from the age of Windows CE, (Cassiopeia 105), I really appreciate its use and I believe that there are many cases where it cannot be replaced by fingers (including typing where you can hit keys really fast with some practice). Fingers tend to obstruct what you want to see (try to play Bubble Breaker with your finger and you will know what I mean).
I currently have a Touch HD and I will be replacing it at some time soon. Do you know any devices at the level of Nexus One / Touch HD2 that will include a stylus or at least be stylus friendly?
Thank you very much!
Nothing that has a capacitive screen will include a stylus, but there are capacitive styli, and you can make one yourself:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/antisynoptique/3225070344/in/photostream/
Never tried that, because I don't have a device with a capacitive screen. I can say that winmo(uses winCE kernel) is still stylus friendly, and you can turn off touch flo, and change the keyboard if you want. Can't say about android, though. I actually still use my stylus a lot, as its much faster than my finger
By the way, do you think that you could live without the stylus? Fact is that capacitive screens do not allow fingernails and thus accuracy is further decreased. Big fimger friendly icons are fun but sometimes they are a waste of space.
cmstackar said:
Nothing that has a capacitive screen will include a stylus, but there are capacitive styli, and you can make one yourself:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/antisynoptique/3225070344/in/photostream/
Never tried that, because I don't have a device with a capacitive screen. I can say that winmo(uses winCE kernel) is still stylus friendly, and you can turn off touch flo, and change the keyboard if you want. Can't say about android, though. I actually still use my stylus a lot, as its much faster than my finger
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Even if I make my own stylus (or buy one) will there be a possibility to attach it on the phone (even externally - as in Omnia I think)?
I am really concerned as regards this trend to capacitive screens which offer a rather useless multitouch and the tradeoff is the accurate stylus. I hope that in the future high-spec resistive screen devices will continue to emerge.
So I was thinking about the issue of palm wrap. I think the implementation of it would be fairly simple. This would probably require root access, but I digress.
You would basically disregard any input happening within 1/8" - 1/4" on the border of the screen. Well not any inputs, but any prolonged inputs. Like the inputs that happen when your fingers hang off the edge of the screen, or the palm of your hand grazing the screen when you try to press something with your thumb.
There are very few programs that use the full screen, especially near the edges. If there are it would just be a matter of putting the anti-registration on hold when the app is in the foreground.
You could even create a setting for "fat" fingers and "slim" fingers. The fatter the finger, the further out you would disregard inputs from there.
The caveat being that you have to have it running on the system level. Now that google has finally added multi touch support on their apps, I wouldn't be surprised if you have access to input information on the system level.
(I know jack about making programs on adroid, but the rum is helping my mind think)
What do you guys think?
I haven't had palm wrap problems since I bought my seidio innocase. Adds a little beef to the unit as a whole (just a little, nothing major) but keeps my palm off the edges of the screen.
i like this idea simply because I do not want to buy any sort of case for the phone
Good idea my friend.
Just out of curiosity, does everyone here hold there phone in one hand and use the other to input anything? Because I can't see any palmwrap problem unless I do this.
I almost exclusively use my nexus with one hand doing inputs with my thumb if I'm not in landscape mode and I've never had any problems with palm wrap (I might be misunderstanding the concept completely though, so feel free to correct me).
I guess it depends on the length of your fingers the base of my thumb is what mostly affects one handed use for me.
JHaste said:
i like this idea simply because I do not want to buy any sort of case for the phone
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[off-topic] That is 'not' a good road to follow...get one of the soft cases or atleast the skins that you dont even notice it (personally I bought THIS and its amazing, has amazing 'grip' and it fits perfectly, unnoticeable).
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I dont seem to have this problem either. But it could be helpful to others with bigger hands maybe?
I have this problem sometimes and it is annoying as heck. I don't even think you need to go to all that trouble to fix it. I think just enabling multitouch on the dexktop might fix it. Don't know how difficult that would be though.
Most of the latest smartphones and upcoming phones appear to have capacative screens and they seem to be the preferred type. However, I still use a resistive screen and I recently borrowed an HTC HD2 with capactive screen and I was not that impressed.
Certainly, they do resopond to a lighter touch but for me that was an irritation as I would regularly accidentally touch/select something by mistake. My Touch Pro2 resistive screen does not require much more pressure on the screen but just enough that it is hard to select something accidentally. I also like to use my finger nail to select which of course you cannot do with a capactive screen. Selecting some of the smaller menus in Windows Mobile is quite difficult on a capactive screen.
The other reason I like using my finger nail is to minimize finger marks on the screen. I noticed when using a capactive screen that it was covered in finger marks very quickly.
So, are capactive screens really "better"? I have held off upgrading my Touch Pro2 as I do not think that capactive screens are better than some of the latter resistive screens. However, it seems that if I do want to upgrade my phone in due course I am going to have to go with a capactive screen.
Maybe my Touch Pro2 will serve me for a while longer yet!
Well,first off,windows mobile isn't so finger friendly.If you use android with a capacitive screen it's much more pleasant.Secondly,capacitive screens allow the use of better materials like glass,which are more scratch-proof(see HTC HD2 and knife video at youtube to see what I mean),offer better image quality and phones using capacitive screens can be thinner.There is more,but that's what I can think of now!
Hope it helps!
It depends on what you're using it in, but I prefer a nice resistive screen over capacitive: almost as sensitive, and you can use a stylus. Although I have yet to see a multitouch resistive screen on winmo.
Yes capasitive is way way way better and more responsive. You can't stylus it in fine detail like a resistive LCD but the capasitive screens are super sensetive and you don't have to hit the same button like 3 times. On the other hand if you looking to hit a tiny small little spot its sometimes kinda hard with the capasitive LCD, but can be done with a lil practice and knowledge of how it works.
I tell people to get the HD2 over any old winmo phone even if it's just for the capacitive screen.
Windows Mobile and resistive screens always went together because resistive screens supported stylus input, necessary to hit WM's ridiculously small buttons. Nowadays Android, iOS, and Windows Phone 7 have been re-imagined with finger usage in mind and a capacitive touchscreen is by far the best way to control a phone with just your finger. Personally, I never liked the "feel" of resistive screens, whether I was using a stylus or my finger; it's hard to pinpoint exactly what I mean, but when I switched to capacitive I had no desire to return to resistive.
All that said, resistive is still the king for any sort of handwriting recognition or things that require the precision only a stylus can supply.
Yeah once you try capacitive properly you'll never go back... being able to TOUCH not PRESS is so much better, makes the touchscreen interface much more pleasant. Its better for not just pressing, but sliding etc.
Not to mention mulitouch
Although not winmo, a good device that I'd consider an upgrade to a Touch Pro2 with a resistive screen is the Nokia N900. It's sensitive enough that a fairly light touch works fine, but not overly that accidental touches will register.
I do personally like capactive screens though, on most phones.
I'm a fan of resistive screens, if you are using VNC etc to control a desktop machine
from your phone you really need a stylus.
For everday phone use capacitative is better..
Problem with the HD2 is that the screen sensitivity is very high, especially in the 1.48 ROM that most devices ship with. I am using a custom ROM and then I also reduce the screen sensitivity using BsB Tweaks and precision is very good.
I wonder if they will come out with a capacitive screen pen to be able to use handwriting recognition on the newer screens. I am old school and did not learn typing, so I am a multi-finger hunt and peck kind of guy when I type, although with only being able to use two thumbs or less on the phones pop up keyboard I do not think I would have too much trouble if I lost the ability to handwrite. I just find writing more natural. I really like my handwriting recognition on my Fuze.
maxpower097 said:
but the capasitive screens are super sensetive and you don't have to hit the same button like 3 times.
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It's WM fault, not screen fault. Try high-quality restive screens with Symbian (N97), no need to re-hit
My vote is for resistive. Most productivity software (like Excel Mobile) works MUCH better with a stylus. I can comfortably and accurately work with EM at 50% zoom on a Fuze. Except for dialing and SMS, I use the stylus for everything. No matter how sensitive capacitive is, you will never be as accurate with your finger as a stylus.
I'm just getting a tp2 now. I think it's going to be my last phone for a LONG while. I need a resistive screen and slideout keyboard, since my only concern is being productive with productivity software. I don't know of any phones in the works that offer the combination I need.
Well,when speaking about hardware and screen size like the Hero's then yes,resistive might be more accurate(for me not better at any rate),but when speaking about high-end phones,such as the Desire(Classic,HD and Z) or the Galaxy S,with so much power and such big screens,all this talk about them lacking accuracy is complete mumbo-jumbo(I'd be rude if I said bull****,wouldn't I? ).Have you ever tried these phones actually?They make my (old) Diamond's screen seem like a child's toyphone or some badly made copy of a current phone.
Plus the fact that with resistive you can use high-quality glass with scratch proof coatings instead of plastic is a huge advantage for me!
Just my opinion though!
The only thing I like about capacitative screens are the durability aspect. The biggest thing I hate? Can't use anything but your finger (those fat styluses are just as good as using your finger...). I'd go capacitative anytime though just for durability. I like knowing that my device will last.