I'm writing this message since a lot of people are probably thinking that their warranty is still intact, since a lot of posts here and elsewhere claim that it is.
Before I unlocked my Telus One X, I wanted to be sure my warranty would be honored so I read all the materials I could, including the warranty text, the message on HTCDev.com, and various posts on this, and other forums.
Everything indicated that the warranty would only apply to direct consequences of the unlocked bootloader, eg: bricking your phone. This is reasonable, and it would be reasonable to assume that hardware defects would continue to be covered. I'm totally OK with that.
However, it seems that this is not, in fact, the case.
My One X recently started having a backlight issue, where squeezing the phone in the middle would cause the backlight to go out. Eventually, the backlight stopped working altogether, though I could see the screen if I looked hard enough in the right light, and it played sounds and received calls normally. I brought it in to my Telus dealer for repair and, since I'm in Canada, it was shipped to a company called FutureTel.
After a week, I had to chase down the status of my repair. Essentially FutureTel stated, according to the representative at the Telus dealer, that the phone was "beyond repair" and gave me the option of buying a replacement phone. I was given no more information.
This didn't make sense to me, so I started calling around to all involved. The dealer told me to call Telus.
Telus: We have nothing to do with that. The dealer sent it to HTC. You need to call HTC.
This is where it starts getting extremely odd...
HTC: We don't warranty these phones. We sell them to Telus/Rogers/Bell, and they "modify" them so we have nothing to do with it. We can't even provide a warranty due to this modification. For warranties, they contract FutureTel. You need to call them directly, here's their number
FutureTel: The warranty was denied due to "illegal software." (I asked what law was violated, and she wouldn't elaborate) We only handle warranties based on HTC policies. They are the only party that actually provides the warranty. Call them
HTC (again): Previous HTC guy was wrong. We set the policy, and the policy states that "If you root the device, your warranty is void."
This really bugged me, since I didn't see any such statement on any documentation from HTC or Telus, so I asked for clarification: "Where is this stated, and what, exactly, does it say?"
He responded with a lot of vague "in the warranty", and "on our website" answers but could not definitively find any such statement. I quoted the text from HTCDev.com and he said that didn't matter. It's the warranty, and directed me to a page on their website under support listing the warranty policies.
There is a curious omission of Canada in the list, and we went back and forth many times with him claiming I followed his instructions wrong before he eventually said, "just look at the United States one."
The thing is, It doesn't actually state what is claimed to be stated in that document, despite claims that it did. Under "LIMITED WARRANTY STATEMENT" Section 7, it lists the instances that void the warranty. Nothing about unlocking or bootloaders or software of any kind.
I kept asking for the exact section that voids the warranty, and eventually, he pointed to a section under the software EULA:
ANY THIRD PARTY SOFTWARE THAT MAY BE PROVIDED WITH THE
SOFTWARE IS INCLUDED FOR USE AT YOUR OPTION. IF YOU CHOOSE
TO USE SUCH THIRD PARTY SOFTWARE, THEN SUCH USE SHALL BE
GOVERNED BY SUCH THIRD PARTY’S LICENSE AGREEMENT. HTC IS NOT
RESPONSIBLE FOR ANY THIRD PARTY’S SOFTWARE AND SHALL HAVE NO
LIABILITY FOR YOUR USE OF THIRD PARTY SOFTWARE.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If you are familiar with EULAs and agreements, you know what this means: The phone comes with software preloaded that wasn't written by HTC: eg: Facebook. If you use that software, then it's own license will be in effect. Read this as: "Facebook is responsible for their own software. We just handed it to you"
No matter what I tried, I couldn't get the guy to accept the actual interpretation of the passage and he continued to state that it means that if I "use any 3rd-party software, the warranty is void."
Right then.
I asked for an escalation in hopes of getting someone who can parse the English language. Unfortunately, I got the same thing. She pointed to the exact same passage, claiming that it voids the warranty. I tried to point out how ridiculous that reading was: "With your interpretation, that means that any software I install, even via the Play store, voids the warranty." Her response: "It says nothing about apps."
Great. That section is entirely about apps...
So, I asked them that if this is the case, then to please amend the text on HTCDev.com to state clearly that the warranty is void if you continue. She said she would pass that along. (right...)
So here is the bottom line: HTC WILL NOT COVER YOUR PHONE IF YOU UNLOCK THE BOOTLOADER. If you are worried about your warranty and you are considering using HTCDev to unlock it, do not assume you will be covered as many other posts state.
If you want coverage, and you want to unlock, you really only have 2 options:
Unlock using another method that does not "mark" the phone
Get 3rd-party coverage from you provider or somewhere else. It seems that people have had good luck with those, despite bootloader status
I thought this was mentioned and must be agreed upon as soon as the HTCDev unlock process begins.
jacobas92 said:
I thought this was mentioned and must be agreed upon as soon as the HTCDev unlock process begins.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Here is all it says on the matter:
It is our responsibility to caution you that not all claims resulting or caused by or from the unlocking of the bootloader may be covered under warranty.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Also:
Please understand that you will not be able to return your device to the original state and going forward your device may not be held covered under the warranty for all claims resulting from the unlocking of the bootloader. HTC bears no responsibility if your device is no longer usable afterwards.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
And:
This is a technical procedure and the side effects could possibly necessitate repairs to your device not covered under warranty.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It specifically mentions issues related to the unlocking in all cases. There is no text that specifically voids the entire warranty at any point in the process. Also, in searches of XDA and other sites, I found MANY posts claiming that hardware issues are still covered and to have at it. I wanted to warn people about these posts since they come up at the the top when you Google it.
There are threads where people say they have gotten repairs, but it seems that they most likely had 3rd-party warranties via the carrier. (Sprint and Verizon both came up.)
When I unlocked my bootloader, I thought it was pretty clear that my warranty was void.
If youre unlocking your bootloader, you should at least have enough understanding of software and hardware to know that it's not hard to blame most hardware issues on software modifications. Obviously a large company will avoid added costs if they can.
Sent from my HTC One X using xda app-developers app
ILiPri case
exad said:
When I unlocked my bootloader, I thought it was pretty clear that my warranty was void.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Based on what, though? I, along with many others, saw no reason to expect the whole warranty to be void, especially since there is no language to indicate this.
If you're talking about HTC not helping you if you brick your phone, then of course we would all expect that, and the language specifically says so.
A LOT of people are on these forums claiming that the phones WILL be covered for hardware defects, and this is not the case.
The worst part is that they are pointing to language relating to 3rd-party software that is pre-loaded by HTC themselves as the reason they won't honor the warranty. If this is how they are claiming that section is to be interpreted, then they can point to anybody who installed literally anything from the Play Store and say the warranty is void.
I'm not saying what they're doing is right. I'm just saying it's to be expected. I have yet to see such thing as a morally sound company.
Sent from my HTC One X using xda app-developers app
Same exact thing happened to my phone, and a few other peoples. Seems weird.
Sent from my Nexus 4
jimfunk said:
Based on what, though? I, along with many others, saw no reason to expect the whole warranty to be void, especially since there is no language to indicate this.
If you're talking about HTC not helping you if you brick your phone, then of course we would all expect that, and the language specifically says so.
A LOT of people are on these forums claiming that the phones WILL be covered for hardware defects, and this is not the case.
The worst part is that they are pointing to language relating to 3rd-party software that is pre-loaded by HTC themselves as the reason they won't honor the warranty. If this is how they are claiming that section is to be interpreted, then they can point to anybody who installed literally anything from the Play Store and say the warranty is void.
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Click to collapse
It's pretty much common sense. You're messing with a phone and changing software that is unofficial to the phone. There's reasons why it flags the phone in the hboot. If you brick you may be lucky enough to fool your provider and get a free one back but same with iPhones. If you break your phone while it is jailbroken and don't restore it before you take it to apple they won't repair your phone without a cost. It's still pretty much common sense
Sent from my HTC One XL using xda app-developers app
Megadoug13 said:
It's pretty much common sense. You're messing with a phone and changing software that is unofficial to the phone. There's reasons why it flags the phone in the hboot. If you brick you may be lucky enough to fool your provider and get a free one back but same with iPhones. If you break your phone while it is jailbroken and don't restore it before you take it to apple they won't repair your phone without a cost. It's still pretty much common sense
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's common sense if I brick it, but not if there's a hardware defect, especially when the unlock was provided by HTC. There is also no language in any of the agreements that voids the warranty.
Not familiar with Apple, but if I buy a notebook and install Linux on it, my warranty is still intact, even though I replaced the bootloader. I've gone through that multiple times.
Finally, the whole point of this post was to make people aware that HTC won't honor the warranty, since there are many threads here where people say they will. I read those threads, along with all of the warranty information, and the text on HTCDev.com, before I went ahead with it. There was nothing official to indicate the warranty was void, and in fact many people suggested it would be honored.
jimfunk said:
Not familiar with Apple, but if I buy a notebook and install Linux on it, my warranty is still intact, even though I replaced the bootloader. I've gone through that multiple times.
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Click to collapse
Comparing apples and oranges. You're partitioning and overwriting rewriteable Disk Space. This does not cause any damage. A better comparison would be flashing a modified bios on a videocard or motherboard which is ALSO NOT COVERED by any manufacturer.
When overwriting Read only memory, there is more risk involved and it takes skilled people to restore and repair. Software is specifically designed to work with the hardware contained within. This is also one of the reasons your phone OS may seem zippier than your PC.
I can completely understand why a company would not warrant a phone that's been messed with. It's difficult to narrow down the cause and eventhough some hardware failures are unlikely to be caused by unlocking your bootloader it can be difficult to determine. Then after they've spent time and money determining if bootloader unlocking is the cause of the hardware defect, the customer may not even want to pay to have it fixed.
exad said:
I can completely understand why a company would not warrant a phone that's been messed with. It's difficult to narrow down the cause and eventhough some hardware failures are unlikely to be caused by unlocking your bootloader it can be difficult to determine. Then after they've spent time and money determining if bootloader unlocking is the cause of the hardware defect, the customer may not even want to pay to have it fixed.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If it's obvious that the cause was a manufacturing defect, the software doesn't matter.
In any case, the warranty text, and the text on HTCDev.com are clearly stated, regardless of what is "obvious" to you. There is NO reading of the materials that indicates that the warranty is void, and there ARE people out there telling others that it would be covered.
The whole purpose of a pre-defined agreement is that everybody knows where they stand BEFORE entering into that agreement. Neither party can change the rules afterwards, or enact hidden policies without ensuring that all parties are informed. There are laws in the US and Canada for exactly this kind of thing. If the whole thing was solely up to the discretion of the manufacturer, there wouldn't be warranty agreements in the first place.
jimfunk said:
If it's obvious that the cause was a manufacturing defect, the software doesn't matter.
In any case, the warranty text, and the text on HTCDev.com are clearly stated, regardless of what is "obvious" to you. There is NO reading of the materials that indicates that the warranty is void, and there ARE people out there telling others that it would be covered.
The whole purpose of a pre-defined agreement is that everybody knows where they stand BEFORE entering into that agreement. Neither party can change the rules afterwards, or enact hidden policies without ensuring that all parties are informed. There are laws in the US and Canada for exactly this kind of thing. If the whole thing was solely up to the discretion of the manufacturer, there wouldn't be warranty agreements in the first place.
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*Shrug*
"There are those who will insist on disabling S-ON purely to have full access regardless of security implications or to primarily promote specific tools and installation techniques that have taken the more convenient route of assuming all security is off. If a command line tool is deemed as inconvenient, developers can easily develop alternatives that would allow others to install their custom roms without having to alter their device’s Security-ON status. As duly noted in the accompanying email with your unlock_code.bin, please remember that unlocking your bootloader may void all or parts of your warranty and your device may not function as intended by HTC. Unlocking the bootloader is for development purposes only."
pulled that from FAQ on HTCDEV.com
exad said:
may void all or parts of your warranty and your device may not function as intended by HTC. Unlocking the bootloader is for development purposes only[/B]."
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This language is vague, and feeds the apparent consensus on these forums that HTC will still honor manufacturing defects as long as it's obviously not caused by the unlocking.
The reason legal language is written the way it is, is to ensure that the terms are clear. If they want to make it known that it will void the warranty, they should use different language, such as "unlocking your bootloader WILL void your warranty and your device may not function as intended by HTC"
This ambiguity has led to incorrect information being passed on these forums and showing up in Google searches on the topic.
It sounds like you are misreading the purpose of my post as a "poor me" story. It is not. I am taking my lumps and getting my phone fixed elsewhere. I simply wanted to make sure that anybody else curious about the topic will find some clear information when they search, instead of finding the many other posts that state that the warranty IS covered.
jimfunk said:
This language is vague, and feeds the apparent consensus on these forums that HTC will still honor manufacturing defects as long as it's obviously not caused by the unlocking.
The reason legal language is written the way it is, is to ensure that the terms are clear. If they want to make it known that it will void the warranty, they should use different language, such as "unlocking your bootloader WILL void your warranty and your device may not function as intended by HTC"
This ambiguity has led to incorrect information being passed on these forums and showing up in Google searches on the topic.
It sounds like you are misreading the purpose of my post as a "poor me" story. It is not. I am taking my lumps and getting my phone fixed elsewhere. I simply wanted to make sure that anybody else curious about the topic will find some clear information when they search, instead of finding the many other posts that state that the warranty IS covered.
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Click to collapse
Unfortunately, while I whole heartedly agree that more people should know this, I doubt many will find this thread before it's too late.
if the device is s-off, the tampered message can be removed, ruu can be installed, the s-on flag can be set again, and the bootloader can be re-locked. That would remove any trace of root or unlocked bootloader.
I sent my devices back relocked, ruu'ed to the tampered flag was removed, and s-off for a microphone problem and HTC fixed it under warranty.
I think it depends on country, but in the end if you believe HTC/telus is breaking a contract or other laws you should get a lawyer and prove your point.
In Australia, where I live, the warranty is from the place of purchase and extends for a length of time that can be reasonably expected for that device.
Manufacturer warranties are not law and are purely given by manufacturers in good faith. If I buy from Telstra, Telstra must give a warranty and the warranty at least extends for the length of a contract the phone was puchased with eg 2 years.
Telstra having arrangments with HTC to fix warranty issues is upto Telstra and htc, it has zero to do with the customers statutory warranty from Telstra that is covered and protected by Australian consumer law.
Telstra can not void the devices warranty based on unlocking the bootloader.
Similar Harvey Norman's cannot void based on a void sticker over a screw being broken on a tv set.
Sent from my HTC One XL using xda app-developers app
ImagioX1 said:
I sent my devices back relocked, ruu'ed to the tampered flag was removed, and s-off for a microphone problem and HTC fixed it under warranty.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm about to relock my phone, apply the ruu files and send it in for warranty. I was wondering if there is a thread to a proper proceedures in doing so? More to the point what you did with removing the tampered flag. If you were successful then would you mind giving more advice as to how.
Aren't disclaimers about our voided warranty posted all over forums?
Sent from my One X using xda app-developers app
dethpikil said:
Aren't disclaimers about our voided warranty posted all over forums?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
They also say your phone might experience explosions of puppy kisses. What is said on these forums has no bearing on warranty status in any country.
At best they are advice related to warranty status as the dev understands in their own country.
I think in most cases it is based on what is understood to be the case in USA. A country known to offer very little consumer protection.
Related
Does that mean if you experience a problem and its rooted, they wouldn't care if you returned it?
Sent from my SPH-D700 using XDA App
if they figure out if its rooted they wont return it if its stock they most likely wont figure out that its rooted just depends on how smart the perosn is
So you'd still have to unroot just incase?
I figured it being a straight up google phone, aosp and all, they would embrace the modding
I guess we still gots a ways to go before that happens
Sent from my SPH-D700 using XDA App
A_Flying_Fox said:
So you'd still have to unroot just incase?
I figured it being a straight up google phone, aosp and all, they would embrace the modding
I guess we still gots a ways to go before that happens
Sent from my SPH-D700 using XDA App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Google, yes. Samsung/Best Buy/hardware OEMs, no. Google doesn't deal with the consequences of someone bricking their phone by being stupid and the revenue loss from a warranty claim/exchange. That being said, HTC usually honored Nexus One warranties on things like hardware failures unrelated to rooting(i.e. power button fail).
Sent from my Nexus S using XDA App
unremarked said:
Google, yes. Samsung/Best Buy/hardware OEMs, no. Google doesn't deal with the consequences of someone bricking their phone by being stupid and the revenue loss from a warranty claim/exchange. That being said, HTC usually honored Nexus One warranties on things like hardware failures unrelated to rooting(i.e. power button fail).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I haven't lived in Texas since 1983, so I can't speak directly for Texas, but in many jurisdictions, such as California (where I live) the warrantor has no choice but to honor the warranty on a hardware failure just because a software modification was made unless the warrantor can prove that the software mod caused the hardware failure.
Warranty law in many (most?) states in the US specifically allows for user modifications to a product not voiding the warranty unless said mod causes the failure. A common example is that a modification to your car with an aftermarket stereo system doesn't void the warranty on the drivetrain.
YMMV.
Personally I would unroot and re-lock before exchanging/returning, it's really not that hard (several threads discussing how), but I wouldn't stress over it either if I didn't. Best Buy's certainly not going to go digging into the phone's settings and software to see if you've rooted. They're going to turn it on to see if it works, and they're going to check it for physical damage, that's pretty much it.
Again, several threads already discussing this if you search for them...
distortedloop said:
I haven't lived in Texas since 1983, so I can't speak directly for Texas, but in many jurisdictions, such as California (where I live) the warrantor has no choice but to honor the warranty on a hardware failure just because a software modification was made unless the warrantor can prove that the software mod caused the hardware failure.
Warranty law in many (most?) states in the US specifically allows for user modifications to a product not voiding the warranty unless said mod causes the failure. A common example is that a modification to your car with an aftermarket stereo system doesn't void the warranty on the drivetrain.
YMMV.
Personally I would unroot and re-lock before exchanging/returning, it's really not that hard (several threads discussing how), but I wouldn't stress over it either if I didn't. Best Buy's certainly not going to go digging into the phone's settings and software to see if you've rooted. They're going to turn it on to see if it works, and they're going to check it for physical damage, that's pretty much it.
Again, several threads already discussing this if you search for them...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
However, if someone does something like installs an improperly tuned or generally misuses a nitrous oxide/supercharged system which could directly lead to damage to the vehicle. I think that's a closer example to what folks typically do with a rooted devices than the car stereo. A slight digression and we could probably spend all day in "What if" scenarios.
But yeah, mate, that's my understanding and experience as well. If the warranty claim is for a hardware issue unrelated to the modified software, HTC(don't know about Samsung, but I'd imagine it'd be the same) generally honor the warranty. My response was to @A_Flying_Fox's question regarding the official support on modding, which I highly doubt we'll ever have from hardware manufacturers due to the aforementioned revenue loss from warranty claims/exchanges from folks being silly. Also I believe the one thing exempt from any warranty repair/most insurances is water damage.
When I lurked the Nexus One forums, I did see threads pop up regarding the warranty with one of three outcomes: Full repair with no questions asked, hardware repair with a $120 charge to replace motherboard(even if this was not the cause of the fault), or flatout refusal due to the language of the unlocked bootloader explicitly saying your warranty is now void. I'll point out here that the language on the Nexus S says your warranty MAY be void.
Like you, however, I'd recommend at least relocking the bootloader before returning the phone and/or sending it in for a claim.
unremarked said:
However, if someone does something like installs an improperly tuned or generally misuses a nitrous oxide/supercharged system which could directly lead to damage to the vehicle. I think that's a closer example to what folks typically do with a rooted devices than the car stereo. A slight digression and we could probably spend all day in "What if" scenarios.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
But that was exactly my point - if you do an "unauthorized" mod that causes the hardware malfuntion, warranty service can be denied.
If you do a modification that is not the cause of the hardware malfunction, warranty service for that hardware malfunction can NOT be denied.
If you overclock your CPU and then the CPU fries itself, you're SOL on the warranty repair.
If you root the phone and the volume switch stops working, or the screen stops working, they can't deny warranty service. Rooting in and of itself doesn't do anything that would cause a hardware malfunction; though it may let you do things (like overclocking) that can.
I'm talking about what is LEGAL, at least in my state, not what some company will try to get away with if you let them. It doesn't matter what some people say they've experienced with HTC on an N1 claim, unless they went to court over it and lost.
This isn't really the thread to discuss it, but since you gave such an extreme example that doesn't apply to the discussion at hand, I felt compelled to respond.
Peace.
distortedloop said:
But that was exactly my point - if you do an "unauthorized" mod that causes the hardware malfuntion, warranty service can be denied.
If you do a modification that is not the cause of the hardware malfunction, warranty service for that hardware malfunction can NOT be denied.
If you overclock your CPU and then the CPU fries itself, you're SOL on the warranty repair.
If you root the phone and the volume switch stops working, or the screen stops working, they can't deny warranty service. Rooting in and of itself doesn't do anything that would cause a hardware malfunction; though it may let you do things (like overclocking) that can.
I'm talking about what is LEGAL, at least in my state, not what some company will try to get away with if you let them. It doesn't matter what some people say they've experienced with HTC on an N1 claim, unless they went to court over it and lost.
This isn't really the thread to discuss it, but since you gave such an extreme example that doesn't apply to the discussion at hand, I felt compelled to respond.
Peace.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
All excellent points, mate. I'll admit that perhaps that wasn't the best example, but I'm not really a car guy.
However, I'm going to disagree on two points: One, I think this discussion(aside from the car talk fail on my part) is on topic given the OP's question was regarding return/warranty claim. Two, the legal aspect you mentioned. In order to unlock the bootloader on the Nexus One, you had to agree to avoid your warranty.
You were not forced to do this, you were not coerced into doing this, nor was it something you could do by accident You must have knowingly and intentionally set out to unlock your bootloader. The language was very clear on what the consquences of this action were. If someone were to sue HTC over their refusal to honor warranty, regardless of the issue, I believe they would lose because they agreed to void their warranty when they unlocked.
Here is the language HTC used:
HTC said:
If you unlock the bootloader, you will be able to install custom operating system software on the phone.
A custom OS is not subject to the same testing as the original OS, and can cause your phone and installed applications to stop working properly. As a result, unlocking the bootloader will void any warranty on your phone.
To prevent unauthorized access to your personal data, unlocking the bootloader will also delete all personal data from your phone(a "factory data reset"). Press the Volume Up/Down button to select Yes or No. Then press the power button to continue.
Yes: Unlock bootloader (and void your warranty)
No: Do not unlock and restart phone.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
unremarked said:
All excellent points, mate. I'll admit that perhaps that wasn't the best example, but I'm not really a car guy.
However, I'm going to disagree on two points: One, I think this discussion(aside from the car talk fail on my part) is on topic given the OP's question was regarding return/warranty claim. Two, the legal aspect you mentioned. In order to unlock the bootloader on the Nexus One, you had to agree to avoid your warranty.
You were not forced to do this, you were not coerced into doing this, nor was it something you could do by accident You must have knowingly and intentionally set out to unlock your bootloader. The language was very clear on what the consquences of this action were. If someone were to sue HTC over their refusal to honor warranty, regardless of the issue, I believe they would lose because they agreed to void their warranty when they unlocked.
Here is the language HTC used:
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Only if the unlocking caused (or could have caused) the failure you're seeking warranty repair for.
Unlocking the bootloader could in no way cause the volume buttons or the earphone jack assembly to go bad, therefore just the fact that you unlocked the bootloader would not allow the manufacturer to deny you repairs for the volume buttons or speaker jack if they went bad.
It's a matter of statute. Your jurisdiction may be different.
There's a firestorm going on in the international forum because, at least overseas, HTC's no longer providing warranty support for devices unlocked via HTCdev that have used non-HTC provided ROMs. Here's an e-mail exchange.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Da: Returns [mailto:[email protected]]
Inviato: mercoledì 2 maggio 2012 16:59
A: xxxxx xxxxxxxx
Oggetto: RE: Clove Return (RM120410473F)
Paolo
We are contacting you concerning the HTC One X which you returned to us due to there being a yellow tint on the display. As you are aware we sent the handset to the HTC service centre as it was not possible to have it classed as a DOA (dead on arrival), due to the bootloader being unlocked and illegal software having been installed. The HTC service has confirmed that illegal software has been installed on the handset at some time by yourself resulting in the warranty being invalidated. Simply unlocking and relocking the bootloader would not have invalidated the warranty.
Due to illegal software being installed on the handset while it was in your possession HTC has issued a quotation for the replacement of the mainboard. The total of the quotation for the repair is £199.81 and we will need to charge an additional £24 for the return of the handset to your Italian address by International Signed post. This provides a total repair and return cost of £223.81.
It is possible for the handset to be returned to you without it being repaired. The HTC service centre charge £23.70 for the handset to be released and returned to us. Like with the repair quotation we will need to charge £24 for the handset to be returned to you. This means that the total to return the handset to you without it being repaired is £47.70.
Regards
Sales Team
Clove Technology
TEL: +44 (0)1202 552936
FAX: +44 (0)1202 552937
Email: [email protected]
Website: www.clove.co.uk
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1631466
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1631610
Prior to the release of the One's HTC provided h/w warranty repairs even if the device had been running a custom ROM. It appears that's no longer the case. It all hinges on the wording on HTCdev that states "you may void your warranty." "May" now seems to mean "will" in many cases.
It might be different in the U.S. but it's worth investigating before using HTCdev.
P.S. - Don't shoot the messenger.
wow , weak.
if true , almost regretting my trade for a onex and getting rid of galaxy nexus.
Thank God for Best Buy Black Tie Protection
dmbrown81 said:
Thank God for Best Buy Black Tie Protection
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Click to collapse
Does Best Buy actually cover relocked phones? I have Black Tie Protection and I want to know whether this REALLY will cover me
I thought it was stated when they started it that using the unlock would invalidate warranties?
^ I thought so too.
KitF said:
I thought it was stated when they started it that using the unlock would invalidate warranties?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Up until the One's, they repaired h/w regardless of what s/w had been run on the device unless it was clearly customer induced damage. So while they didn't have to based on the T&C language, they did. It appears that's no longer the case (at least in Europe). As you can see from the e-mail above, their denying repairs on what are known to be frequently occuring issues having nothing to do with the unlocked bootloader. As they say, caveat emptor.
After reading their ToS it seems that you only void your warranty if the damage to your device is a result of the unlocked bootloader. The issue in the OP was an issue with the hardware (the screen) and the warranty shouldn't be voided. Granted, I'm not a lawyer but that's how I interpret their ToS.
THE SERVICE, INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION, UPDATES, UPGRADES AND PATCHES FOR THE SOFTWARE INSTALLED ON YOUR DEVICE THAT YOU DOWNLOAD TO YOUR DEVICE FROM THE SERVICE, IS PROVIDED BY HTC ON AN “AS IS”, “WITH ALL FAULTS” AND “AS AVAILABLE” BASIS. THE COMPANY MAKES NO REPRESENTATIONS OR WARRANTIES OF ANY KIND, EXPRESSED OR IMPLIED, AS TO THE OPERATION OF THE SERVICE, THE ACCURACY OR THE COMPLETENESS OF THE INFORMATION, CONTENT, MATERIALS, OR PRODUCTS INCLUDED OR AVAILABLE ON THE SERVICE. HTC WILL NOT BE LIABLE FOR ANY DAMAGES OF ANY KIND ARISING FROM THE USE OF THE SERVICE, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, PUNITIVE, AND CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
letshaveDEX said:
Does Best Buy actually cover relocked phones? I have Black Tie Protection and I want to know whether this REALLY will cover me
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
bestbuy care less about your bootloader really
blacktie covers any "accidental damage"
i think you can put the phone into the microwave for 2 minutes and deep fry it before sending it back to best buy, and they will still replace it
you : "I accidentally dropped it into the deep fryer"
geek squirt: "here's your new htc one"
Yes, however, Clove also States that the warranty wouldnt be voided had the bootloader had been unlocked then relocked. However, they stated that "illegal" software was run on it and thus the warranty is void. If a court upholds the term and warranty is void, I'm afraid of the consequences of that action. It would mean that anyone that puts a different ROM than the one their device shipped with would be illegal. It still baffles me that they would use the term "illegal" on something we love doing after rooting our devices and have a "right" to do here in America.
Sent from my HTC Vivid
NextNexus said:
After reading their ToS it seems that you only void your warranty if the damage to your device is a result of the unlocked bootloader. The issue in the OP was an issue with the hardware (the screen) and the warranty shouldn't be voided. Granted, I'm not a lawyer but that's how I interpret their ToS.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You agree to this...
It is our responsibility to caution you that not all claims resulting or caused by or from the unlocking of the bootloader may be covered under warranty.
And this...
Unlocking the bootloader means that you now have the ability to customize software on your device. Please note that changing your bootloader can cause significant issues with your device and once you have unlocked your device, you have agreed to the disclaimer that states a change in warranty status such that in the event you render your device unusable, you are responsible for the recovery of your device, whether by repair or by other means.
Both are broad enough for HTC to drive a truck through them. Specifically, saying "may" void your warranty without defining what conditons apply inside and outside of "may." In the absence of definition, "may" might as well read "will" because it's totally at HTC's discretion.
ZeroRilix said:
have a "right" to do here in America.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
you have the right to bear arm in america
try that in europe
BarryH_GEG said:
You agree to this...
It is our responsibility to caution you that not all claims resulting or caused by or from the unlocking of the bootloader may be covered under warranty.
And this...
Unlocking the bootloader means that you now have the ability to customize software on your device. Please note that changing your bootloader can cause significant issues with your device and once you have unlocked your device, you have agreed to the disclaimer that states a change in warranty status such that in the event you render your device unusable, you are responsible for the recovery of your device, whether by repair or by other means.
Both are broad enough for HTC to drive a truck through them. Specifically, saying "may" void your warranty without defining what conditons apply inside and outside of "may." In the absence of definition, "may" might as well read "will" because it's totally at HTC's discretion.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I disagree and I posted in my previous post the exact wording from the disclaimer that they are referring to in your post. The disclaimer CLEARLY states that the warranty does not cover damage that occurs as a RESULT of the bootloader being unlocked.
NextNexus said:
I disagree and I posted in my previous post the exact wording from the disclaimer that they are referring to in your post. The disclaimer CLEARLY states that the warranty does not cover damage that occurs as a RESULT of the bootloader being unlocked.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Test it.
It's you (and maybe some lawyers) vs. a multi-billion dollar corporation. We can debate whether they should be applying the policy the way they've started to but if they turn down a warrantly claim you can't make them fix your phone (without lawyering up).
NextNexus said:
I disagree and I posted in my previous post the exact wording from the disclaimer that they are referring to in your post. The disclaimer CLEARLY states that the warranty does not cover damage that occurs as a RESULT of the bootloader being unlocked.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes, they may have left much wide open in their verbage, but luckily the legal crux is a part that is perfectly lucid. There is no way that flashing an "illegal" ( ) ROM can cause a physical hardware defect. The defect was not/nor could be a "result" from this action, and to claim such HTC are not abiding by their own posted terms.
---------- Post added at 12:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:33 PM ----------
BarryH_GEG said:
Test it.
It's you (and maybe some lawyers) vs. a multi-billion dollar corporation. We can debate whether they should be applying the policy the way they've started to but if they turn down a warrantly claim you can't make them fix your phone (without lawyering up).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Paolo (whomever that is) needs to test this, he is the one falsely cheated out of a warranty.
Clove and Handtec are the two biggest HTC online resellers in the UK. They've both confirmed from HTC that altering the s/w via a bootloader unlocked with HTCdev voids your warranty (in the EU). Unlocking the bootloader alone does not. This isn't theory, its practice. That's why the international forum is freaking out.
Whether they can get away with it in the long term is yet to be proven. But in the short term, this is something people considering using HTCdev should take in to account. Paolo has two options: 1) repair the phone at his expense, or 2) get it back the way he sent it. Fighting with HTC wasn’t a provided option. Debating whether or not the Titanic was unsinkable sort of became moot after it hit the iceberg.
I'm not defending or debating the correctness of HTC's actions, only pointing them out so no one here inadvertently becomes Paolo.
"KNOX WARRANTY VOID" - only unfortunate wording? Please share your thoughts.
The flag everybody talks about is called "KNOX WARRANTY VOID". Considering that this text has been come up with by some non-native english speaking Korean it occured to me that this means actually something really different from what most people tend to understand. (I'm non-native English speaking too as you can see by reading this weird sentence, but I hope you get it nevertheless )
What most think of when they read "KNOX WARRANTY VOID":
"Device warranty void"
What I think of when I read "KNOX WARRANTY VOID":
"Knox warranty void".
Do you see the difference? I think that Samsung has to give some kind of warranty that the feature Knox works as it should (that means separating private data from enterprise data) in order to make companies use this feature. That's because they rely on it. Normally the flag is toggled by manipulating the device in a way that no one can assure that Knox works anymore as intended. A non-Samsung process running as root may cross process boundaries and give access to data it should not. So if a big company faces this situation they say: Hey Samsung, you assured that the device is secure but now look at this! The company could also make a claim for compensation!!!
But then Samsung can take a look at the device and say: "No way. The Knox warranty is void on this device. It is not secure anymore. It's written here."
That's it I think. It's not about denying the regular consumer warranty. It's about denying the warranty that the feature knox works as intended. That's why the flag is called "Knox warranty void". Maybe it's a bit unfortunately worded.
What do you think?
Your thought is just as valid as the other.
I guess someone from Samsung would need to inform us, or someone with a broken cellphone that is 0x1 would need to try to see if they could get it repaired or replaced under warranty.
Considering what Samsung did lately, the (for the customer) worst possible explanation is probably true.
What I read here, the phone is rootable and will boot without ever showing the knox flag. Maybe knox apps will not work anymore, but it stands to reason, that a sufficiently powerful enemy could likely modify the OS in a way to emulate the knox flag. To get around this, some kind of trusted cryptographic store would be needed, that only releases keys if the firmware checks out clean. However, if you have that, then you wouldn't need that efused flag in the first place. (Correct me please, if I am wrong here.)
I think your point may well be valid. I have read somewhere that people with the knox void are still getting their phone fixed by Samsung for free. .. so. ....
Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk
Yes, I always assumed that it means the "Knox warranty" is void, not specifically the customer warranty. Basically the phone can't be used in a Knox environment anymore. To most end users this will have no impact since Knox is only useful to companies that will pay Samsung for the privilege... It's basically a push from Samsung to try to emulate the former success of Blackberry in large companies. I doubt it'll be very successful, and anyway it's already possible to root a device without triggering Knox, so in effect the warranty means absolutely nothing for the moment... (like most failed DRM schemes!)
I suppose it could be an issue for people who will want to resell the device in the future. Knox voided devices will probably sell a bit cheaper than pristine ones, even though it shouldn't matter to most buyers...
Several people have already reported being denied warranty service due to knox flag. OP your understanding of "Knox Warranty Void" is conjecture. Without Samsung releasing a clear statement unequivocally stating their official position there is no use in guessing. Why make their job easier by misguiding users to believe that you are speaking from a privileged position?
Bruce lee roy said:
Several people have already reported being denied warranty service due to knox flag. OP your understanding of "Knox Warranty Void" is conjecture. Without Samsung releasing a clear statement unequivocally stating their official position there is no use in guessing. Why make their job easier by misguiding users to believe that you are speaking from a privileged position?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The truth is that his conjecture is just as possible as the current conjecture. Why put the word "Knox" in there at all.. "Warranty Void" is all that is needed if the customer's phone warranty was being voided.
"Knox Warranty" sounds like a way for them to decide if they need to warranty data loss or theft. A way for them to determine is a system as been modified allowing someone admin/root access to the 'secured' data.
But then again.. Without Samsung releasing a clear statement unequivocally stating their official position it's just 'guessing'.
It's also very clear, at least to me, that the OP was posing a question and not speaking from a privileged position.
Breach said:
Why put the word "Knox" in there at all.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
From the beginning, my understanding of it was like this:
Knox is a hardware assisted security architecture. The knox part in the warranty flag is to show that it is hardware assisted too, and so immune to resetting or tampering.
Of course, this is conjecture, too.
cgi said:
From the beginning, my understanding of it was like this:
Knox is a hardware assisted security architecture. The knox part in the warranty flag is to show that it is hardware assisted too, and so immune to resetting or tampering.
Of course, this is conjecture, too.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Samsung Knox - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samsung_Knox
It's a mobile security and cloud identity technology. Knox is now described as an anti tampering technology. I makes sense that they would attempt to have a way to find out if the system was tampered with.
Time will tell..
Breach said:
The truth is that his conjecture is just as possible as the current conjecture. Why put the word "Knox" in there at all.. "Warranty Void" is all that is needed if the customer's phone warranty was being voided.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Although I don't think you realize it, you've just proved my point with your double talk.
Breach said:
"Knox Warranty" sounds like a way for them to decide if they need to warranty data loss or theft. A way for them to determine is a system as been modified allowing someone admin/root access to the 'secured' data.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
... More conjecture
Breach said:
It's also very clear, at least to me, that the OP was posing a question and not speaking from a privileged position.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ending a post with a question mark does not automatically indicate the op's intention is to pose a question. The majority of the op is written as a statement: first starting off by stating an opinion that his/her control of the Korean language (privileged position) gives them a distinct advantage to interpret the legal jargon released by Samsung. This claim by itself is ridiculous. What does the Korean language have to do with the wording of a warranty for English speaking populations? Do you really think the multi billion dollar international conglomerate, known as Samsung, is incapable of producing a decent translation on the TITLE of their legally binding warranty? Seriously people...
I emailed Samsung about whether the warranty is void or not if it's triggered, twice (as I asked for clarification) and on both occasions they informed me that if any of those counters are anything other than 0x0, you will lose all rights to a warranty repair. Whether it's something like the home button falling off, they will screw you over.
Sent from my Galaxy Note III using Tapatalk
RavenY2K3 said:
I emailed Samsung about whether the warranty is void or not if it's triggered, twice (as I asked for clarification) and on both occasions they informed me that if any of those counters are anything other than 0x0, you will lose all rights to a warranty repair. Whether it's something like the home button falling off, they will screw you over.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You actually got a straight answer out of them? In plain and legible English? I can hardly believe it...
Bruce lee roy said:
Although I don't think you realize it, you've just proved my point with your double talk.
... More conjecture
Ending a post with a question mark does not automatically indicate the op's intention is to pose a question. The majority of the op is written as a statement: first starting off by stating an opinion that his/her control of the Korean language (privileged position) gives them a distinct advantage to interpret the legal jargon released by Samsung. This claim by itself is ridiculous. What does the Korean language have to do with the wording of a warranty for English speaking populations? Do you really think the multi billion dollar international conglomerate, known as Samsung, is incapable of producing a decent translation on the TITLE of their legally binding warranty? Seriously people...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think you are taking this whole subject wayyyy to personally. Relax bro.
It's ALL conjecture at this point, until proven otherwise. In the end, who really cares? Sure, if we can do it without voiding our warranty, that's great. If we can't.. we will void our warranties happily anyways. That is the true way of modders.
Breach said:
I think you are taking this whole subject wayyyy to personally. Relax bro.
It's ALL conjecture at this point, until proven otherwise. In the end, who really cares? Sure, if we can do it without voiding our warranty, that's great. If we can't.. we will void our warranties happily anyways. That is the true way of modders.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
At some point you have to walk away and hope the horse at least has the common sense not to wonder off the edge of a cliff.
Sent from my SGH-T889 using Tapatalk
RavenY2K3 said:
I emailed Samsung about whether the warranty is void or not if it's triggered, twice (as I asked for clarification) and on both occasions they informed me that if any of those counters are anything other than 0x0, you will lose all rights to a warranty repair. Whether it's something like the home button falling off, they will screw you over.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Which really brings us back to the legality of the situation. In many countries (including most of Europe and Australia) the statutory warranty put in place by legislation cannot be denied. The statutory warranty doesn't recognise something like rooting or custom ROMs as a valid reason do deny service, unless the device failure was caused by that action. So from a legal standpoint they cannot deny warranty service based on this, regardless of what they say or put in their own warranty agreement. They really aren't allowed to pick arbitrary reasons to deny service.
On the other hand - try and get it. If Samsung refuse to repair your device under warranty, you would probably have to take them to court to compel them to repair it, and I just don't see anyone trying that. Interestingly enough, whether it would be a valid clause or not, I can't see anything in Samsung's warranty agreement that says modifying the device voids the warranty. Only the standard out that damage *caused by* tampering with the device isn't covered........
cgi said:
Considering what Samsung did lately, the (for the customer) worst possible explanation is probably true.
What I read here, the phone is rootable and will boot without ever showing the knox flag. Maybe knox apps will not work anymore, but it stands to reason, that a sufficiently powerful enemy could likely modify the OS in a way to emulate the knox flag. To get around this, some kind of trusted cryptographic store would be needed, that only releases keys if the firmware checks out clean. However, if you have that, then you wouldn't need that efused flag in the first place. (Correct me please, if I am wrong here.)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
KNOX stuff still works even if the flag is 0x1.
---------------------
I personally see it as 0x0, your data is secure, 0x1, data is secured with knox, but the system has been compromised and no way to guarantee it is truly secure.
Bruce lee roy said:
At some point you have to turn your back and hope the horse at least has the common sense not play near the edge of a cliff.
Sent from my SGH-T889 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
One horse's cliff may be another horse's hurdle.
So what you are saying is that if you knew rooting your Note 3 would void your warranty, you wouldn't root it?
If I can preserve my warranty and still get root, I will.. otherwise, screw the warranty. That's why I am here.
---------- Post added at 08:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:23 PM ----------
It's funny when I say one thing, Bruce calls it double talk...
Breach said:
"Knox Warranty" sounds like a way for them to decide if they need to warranty data loss or theft. A way for them to determine is a system as been modified allowing someone admin/root access to the 'secured' data.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
but when someone says the same thing in a different way..
designgears said:
I personally see it as 0x0, your data is secure, 0x1, data is secured with knox, but the system has been compromised and no way to guarantee it is truly secure.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Bruce agrees by 'Thanking' the guy.
Seriously. Getting Knoxed should be a meme
Sent from my SM-N9005 using xda app-developers app
Ever owned an Xbox? PS3? Or maybe an old VCR? Television? Microwave? Fridge?
Seen the sticker on the inside? The one that says "If this seal is broken, warranty is void"?
Exact same thing.
Seraphim401 said:
Seriously. Getting Knoxed should be a meme
Sent from my SM-N9005 using xda app-developers app
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Good one!
From past experience I've learned that rooting/bootloader unlocking most (all?) devices leads to voided warranty. Is this the same case for Nexus devices? I'd like to be extra careful for the first couple of months just in case there's a hardware failure of some sort.
Thanks
Sent from my Nexus 5
You can always fastboot oem lock (relock the bootloader) it anyway. It doesnt matter
Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk
rfree2340 said:
From past experience I've learned that rooting/bootloader unlocking most (all?) devices leads to voided warranty. Is this the same case for Nexus devices? I'd like to be extra careful for the first couple of months just in case there's a hardware failure of some sort.
Thanks
Sent from my Nexus 5
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
magnuson-moss warranty act said you have nothing to worry about.
http://www.xda-developers.com/xda-tv-2/your-warranty-is-not-void-xda-tv/
painter_ said:
magnuson-moss warranty act said you have nothing to worry about.
http://www.xda-developers.com/xda-tv-2/your-warranty-is-not-void-xda-tv/
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
not to burst your bubble.... but the Magnuson-Moss Warranty act doesn't mean diddly for this. The MM Warranty Act was enacted to prevent manufacturers/dealers from voiding warranties unless something that was done can be linked to the direct cause of a failure (as an example... if the engine of your car blows up... they can't void the warranty because you upgraded your entire sound system). Rooting the phone, or unlocking the bootloader could easily end up in having a bricked device, due to the possibility of flashing an improper ROM or messing up the boot partition.
I believe the act you were trying to refer to was the DMCA. Rooting your phone, IS legal under the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, however unlocking your phone is still a gray area. But I believe just because it's legal... doesn't necessarily mean that manufacturers have to provide a replacement if you did something voluntarily that screwed up your phone.
Google gives you $5 stote credit if you root.
elementaldragon said:
not to burst your bubble.... but the Magnuson-Moss Warranty act doesn't mean diddly for this. The MM Warranty Act was enacted to prevent manufacturers/dealers from voiding warranties unless something that was done can be linked to the direct cause of a failure (as an example... if the engine of your car blows up... they can't void the warranty because you upgraded your entire sound system). Rooting the phone, or unlocking the bootloader could easily end up in having a bricked device, due to the possibility of flashing an improper ROM or messing up the boot partition.
I believe the act you were trying to refer to was the DMCA. Rooting your phone, IS legal under the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, however unlocking your phone is still a gray area. But I believe just because it's legal... doesn't necessarily mean that manufacturers have to provide a replacement if you did something voluntarily that screwed up your phone.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
AMEN.
elementaldragon said:
not to burst your bubble.... but the Magnuson-Moss Warranty act doesn't mean diddly for this. The MM Warranty Act was enacted to prevent manufacturers/dealers from voiding warranties unless something that was done can be linked to the direct cause of a failure (as an example... if the engine of your car blows up... they can't void the warranty because you upgraded your entire sound system). Rooting the phone, or unlocking the bootloader could easily end up in having a bricked device, due to the possibility of flashing an improper ROM or messing up the boot partition.
I believe the act you were trying to refer to was the DMCA. Rooting your phone, IS legal under the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, however unlocking your phone is still a gray area. But I believe just because it's legal... doesn't necessarily mean that manufacturers have to provide a replacement if you did something voluntarily that screwed up your phone.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Depends what your problem is. If the screen stops working, your rooting wouldn't have anything to do with it, so it would apply. Same for the speaker, if it stops working, rooting didn't cause it, still warrantied.
But if you overwrote the partitions, then yes, it obviously wouldn't be covered.
Felnarion said:
Depends what your problem is. If the screen stops working, your rooting wouldn't have anything to do with it, so it would apply. Same for the speaker, if it stops working, rooting didn't cause it, still warrantied.
But if you overwrote the partitions, then yes, it obviously wouldn't be covered.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well... this thread is talking more about just the idea of whether or not rooting/unlocking the bootloader of the N5 would be covered by Google if the phone was RMA'd for some reason. Hence why the DMCA would be the more appropriate reference.
Regarding Samsung's "Warranty Bit" Sh**(Originally from http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?p=49345592)
For those of you who are as ticked off as I am about Samsung's new warranty bit/voided warranty behavior due to a suspected E-fuse in their latest devices, YOU (yes, YOU) need to speak up and make sure that Samsung executives are starkly aware of who pays for their 50' yachts and their effing Bentleys! Tell them that your support for them is easily dissolved and that this new "practice" of theirs is one of the quickest and easiest ways to dissolve it.
Consumers are the ones who pay Samsung's bills. This is a truth that they would rather not acknowledge, but given a force that's great enough in numbers, they will yield to the will of their consumers.
Just look at Microsoft and Windows 8 (8.1), as well as their recent release of Office 2013 (license transfer). Microsoft has got to be one of THE most stubborn corporations in the world right now, but even they have yielded to the overwhelming force that is the consumer, and more specifically, their bank accounts. Ever heard the phrase "money talks"? Oh, it most certainly talks.. We as consumers have the ability to make our money talk collectively, so, if we want to see an end to this new way that they're giving their customers the shaft, we need to join voices and speak UP.
Drown them with emails, light up their tech support lines, and paint this picture for them as clearly as you can. Tell them that you WILL NOT continue to purchase their devices when they deny warranty service simply because of a "warranty bit", or for other ridiculous and non-sensical reasons, and tell them that Knox should come as an OPTION and NOT A MANDATE. I've listed a few ways to do that below. If anyone else has other/better ways of doing so, then by all means, share with the class.
Samsung USA's online customer feedback form: https://contactus.samsung.com/customer/contactus/formmail/mail/MailQuestionProduct.jsp?SITE_ID=1&titleCode=1
Samsung USA's toll-free customer service phone number: 1-855-SAM-USA1 (1-855-726-8721) 9am – 9pm ET, 7 days a week
Samsung Mobile USA's Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/SamsungMobileUSA
If there's a forum on XDA Developers or ANY OTHER WEBSITE where you think this post might help spread the word about this, then you have my expressed written consent to copy this entire post (verbatim, from beginning to end please, including this part at the bottom) and re-post it WHEREVER you think it might help this cause. I've attached a text file that includes this post, as well as all the formatting/coloring (Attention Re-Poster: please re-attach the same text file).
Go, contact Samsung NOW!
(Reserved)
Every Android phone I've ever bought came out of warranty when rooted. In Note 3, Samsung just found a way to detect rooting, that's all. Nothing else changed, so I don't think this is going to have much effect.
aydc said:
Every Android phone I've ever bought came out of warranty when rooted. In Note 3, Samsung just found a way to detect rooting, that's all. Nothing else changed, so I don't think this is going to have much effect.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
But you even cant flash stock FW, nor downgrade, which will lead to 0x1 flag. Also, did you see amount of RAM tat knox uses? And you tell me % of users that need knox? Most expensive device, with many weaknesses that they didn't address, but they forced us to accept knox. No choice, or to stay on 4.2.2. And everything with no clear explanation!? I won't buy their product soon!
Sent from my GT-I9505
jjnhl68 said:
But you even cant flash stock FW, nor downgrade, which will lead to 0x1 flag. Also, did you see amount of RAM tat knox uses? And you tell me % of users that need knox? Most expensive device, with many weaknesses that they didn't address, but they forced us to accept knox. No choice, or to stay on 4.2.2. And everything with no clear explanation!? I won't buy their product soon!
Sent from my GT-I9505
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Good - don't.
Knox is included and everyone knows that, it's in the box and everywhere.
Downgrading is a security risk and rooting is technically an exploit.
Knox uses very little RAM (if you uninstall the main apk which doesn't even require root)
I can't believe we're still talking about ram usage of some small apps even if we've got 2/3 gbs of ram to spare...
Skander1998 said:
Good - don't.
Knox is included and everyone knows that, it's in the box and everywhere.
Downgrading is a security risk and rooting is technically an exploit.
Knox uses very little RAM (if you uninstall the main apk which doesn't even require root)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
But then, KNOX using no RAM would be better. If half the owners of Note3 don't use KNOX, what's the point in it even using any?
Why have a device that's so powerful but then put on software that just hogs. 2.5GB memory yet the TouchWiz and the other crap that Samsung put in it take up so much.
OP, after reading your post, I find it very difficult to comprehend the exact purpose and reasoning that you are trying to convey. After all, it sounds that you are merely butthurt that you got denied warranty because you tampered with your device.
However, you must try to understand how the business world works first.
Your issue is a problem that a miniscule portion of the market experiences. Those of us who consider themselves "leet haxxorz" tend to enjoy tinkering with their devices to streamline the user experience. However, things often go wrong - phones and tablets get bricked. Then the frustrated consumer heads back to Samsung to demand repair/exchange.
As a corporation, Samsung must have noticed that this was costing them a significant amount of money, and hence KNOX was created as a comprehensive tool with a feature to instantly diagnose whether product has been tampered with.
The average user that understands absolutely nothing about technology could care less whether KNOX exists or not.
And as long as KNOX will save the company money in the long run, your persistent complaints will accomplish absolutely nothing. Don't forget that we represent a fairly insignificant portion of the market. Encouraging users to tamper with products encourages liability which costs money. Money that no company is willing to pay.
The only advice I can offer you is to ensure you are not voiding any sort of warranty before you partake in certain activities. By doing research I was able to avoid the 0x1 situation, and retain my warranty. Of course, I had to sacrifice rooting and installing a custom ROM.
jjnhl68 said:
But you even cant flash stock FW...which will lead to 0x1 flag...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
no ppl have flashed stock roms without tripping their knox..
jjnhl68 said:
...nor downgrade, which will lead to 0x1 flag...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
as the other user said this can be considered a security issue so you have no argument..
jjnhl68 said:
...Also, did you see amount of RAM tat knox uses? And you tell me % of users that need knox?...
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its like any other "bloat", do you use any of those apps? do you cry about those apps?
jjnhl68 said:
..Most expensive device, with many weaknesses..
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what weaknesses? and it isnt most expensive anymore... :angel:
jjnhl68 said:
...No choice, or to stay on 4.2.2...
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how do you plan on doing that? as the note 3 came with 4.3
jjnhl68 said:
...And everything with no clear explanation!?...
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the word "knox" is printed EVERYWHERE.. what more are they supposed to do to make users "aware"
jjnhl68 said:
... I won't buy their product soon!...
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only part of your post that i agree with :laugh:
PS- next time you want a big company to do what YOU want...try doing research and not make silly mistakes that can make your argument really weak
Khizar said:
no ppl have flashed stock roms without tripping their knox..
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Also ppl have flashed with tripping their knox!!!
Khizar said:
as the other user said this can be considered a security issue so you have no argument..
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And I should loose my warranty because of that???
Khizar said:
its like any other "bloat", do you use any of those apps? do you cry about those apps?
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See my point!!! No need for bloat, ok?
Khizar said:
what weaknesses? and it isnt most expensive anymore... :angel:
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It was when i have bought it!!! For 6 months my phone was 3 times in service for repairs under warranty (microphone, speaker, display defects)
We all know about weak points of S4, we are using them, aren't we?
Khizar said:
how do you plan on doing that? as the note 3 came with 4.3
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I was on 4.2.2 in time of buying
Khizar said:
the word "knox" is printed EVERYWHERE.. what more are they supposed to do to make users "aware"
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Khizar said:
only part of your post that i agree with :laugh:
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Khizar said:
PS- next time you want a big company to do what YOU want...try doing research and not make silly mistakes that can make your argument really weak
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As I already said, in summer 2013. you couldn't know Samsung's intentions, ok?
On any phone rooting or tampering with your phone voids your warranty no questions asked.
On every root thread the first thing is a warning telling you your warranty is now void.
Your malicious intentions to break the rules of your warranty and fake it to get free servicing is now not possible hence the whining.
PS: flashing stock firmware will never void your warranty unless it has an older bootloader version (security risk)
Personally I mostly agree with the OP. I actually posted a couple of posts in here detailing my email to Samsung Australia and responses and they have vanished - no explanation.
I think the argument that, 'it is clear it has Knox so don't whine about it' is specious and ignores the fact there are 5.4 million members on XDA, most of whom would take exception to being told they can't mod their phones.
I have rooted and not lost Knox, but I also would like more access to my phones without voiding warranty. There are reasons. I want root because the apps I prefer to use require it. Titanium and Greenify are very handy to have and both require root.
I want a custom recovery because a Nandroid backup is the only way I know of to back up a phone that includes all screens, all screen layouts and widgets and can put your phone back just like you had it without having to sit for hours recreating the layout. I backup my calls, SMS, contacts and apps, but the restore is painful. A nandroid makes it simple and you can't do it in stock recovery.
I have no complaints at present about the kernel, but I had a lot of pleasure with my S3 playing with different ROM's using Siyah or GoogyMax - when I have a few months on my Note 3 I will venture down that path, but electronics follow the bathtup curve so I'd like to make sure I'm on the bottom of the bath before I risk warranty.
As I said to Samsung, they appear to have made a choice to follow the Apple line, but more extreme, (you can jailbreak an Apple and return it to stock for warranty purposes) most likely in the hope of becoming the next Blackberry. (i.e. Corporate standard phone) but I think they would have been far better to NOT annoy their current customers who are mostly private individuals and bring out a different but similar phone for Corporates. (I make the assumption about the type of users because I can't recall seeing anyone in the S3, Note, S4 Zoom or Note 3 forums with problems to do with Enterprise sysapps, Enterprise setups, or even Exchange services - to me that suggests very few users are using them)
Journyman16 said:
Personally I mostly agree with the OP. I actually posted a couple of posts in here detailing my email to Samsung Australia and responses and they have vanished - no explanation.
I think the argument that, 'it is clear it has Knox so don't whine about it' is specious and ignores the fact there are 5.4 million members on XDA, most of whom would take exception to being told they can't mod their phones.
I have rooted and not lost Knox, but I also would like more access to my phones without voiding warranty. There are reasons. I want root because the apps I prefer to use require it. Titanium and Greenify are very handy to have and both require root.
I want a custom recovery because a Nandroid backup is the only way I know of to back up a phone that includes all screens, all screen layouts and widgets and can put your phone back just like you had it without having to sit for hours recreating the layout. I backup my calls, SMS, contacts and apps, but the restore is painful. A nandroid makes it simple and you can't do it in stock recovery.
I have no complaints at present about the kernel, but I had a lot of pleasure with my S3 playing with different ROM's using Siyah or GoogyMax - when I have a few months on my Note 3 I will venture down that path, but electronics follow the bathtup curve so I'd like to make sure I'm on the bottom of the bath before I risk warranty.
As I said to Samsung, they appear to have made a choice to follow the Apple line, but more extreme, (you can jailbreak an Apple and return it to stock for warranty purposes) most likely in the hope of becoming the next Blackberry. (i.e. Corporate standard phone) but I think they would have been far better to NOT annoy their current customers who are mostly private individuals and bring out a different but similar phone for Corporates. (I make the assumption about the type of users because I can't recall seeing anyone in the S3, Note, S4 Zoom or Note 3 forums with problems to do with Enterprise sysapps, Enterprise setups, or even Exchange services - to me that suggests very few users are using them)
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i cannot agree with you more.
its all about consumer rights and samdung has no rights to force enterprise solutions on private individuals who have no use for NSA grade security.
however,we have samdung fanboys here who keep defending corporate right more than consumer rights...even going as far to judge who deserve warranty or not.
The logic of not being able to downgrade to a older bootloader and not tripping knox is absolute bullcrap.afterall,it is samdung's official ROM and flashing it trips knox and samdung claims you are trying to be funny with their devices(yeah,that's right,you pay top dollars for their phones and it does not belong to you.PERIOD),so what does that tell you?
samdung going the way of apple and trying to be a corporate phone ala blackberry????
Bi*ch please, blackberry was the top corporate device coz its secured as hell.but jus look at how many ppl actually want to use a blackberry to take pictures,listen to music,surf the net,play games on it or hell even show it to frds they have a new model.
samdung,you have the best hardware in the market,i'll give you that.but your TW sucks,loaded with bloatware and is at best irritable when compared with any custom rom and laughable when compare with CM.
with knox,you can have it.no more samdung's knox-pox time for me to switch to something more friendly.
I do not know why everyone is *****ing about KNOX, I had a look at it after reading the OP's post, from what I can see, and I might be wrong, BUT you actually need to INSTALL it first, otherwise it it just sits there doing nothing. do not like it or want to use it, then DO NOT INSTALL IT, or just disable the KNOX install file, SIMPLE.
frostmore said:
however,we have samdung fanboys here who keep defending corporate right more than consumer rights...even going as far to judge who deserve warranty or not.
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This is really uncalled for, it has ALWAYS been the case that if you root your phone, you lose your warranty. In this case samsung track it by flipping a bit, so they know when you have voided the warranty, many other devices handle this in the form of bootloader unlocks. Once you unlock a bootloader on other devices the process is recorded, purely to void your warranty. This is nothing new, perhaps attaching the name KNOX to it has given you the idea that it is corporate security etc. If it were simply called "Warranty void bit" it would be no more or less related to knox (it just happens that knox shares some of the security mechanisms with how the bit is controlled).
And while we are talking about consumer rights. As the manufacturer of a product it is their right to refuse warranty due to tampering with the software. Maybe with the warranty void bit they can save a few bucks in warranty fraud from people who break their devices with root. As for "going as far to judge who deserve warranty or not" I've already stated that it has always been the case that if you tamper with the software your device warranty is void. Hell, Samsung have had some of the most lax security policies over their devices for the past few years with regards to tracking tampering. Next thing you know you will be complaining that unlocking the bootloader on your sony device is irreversible, or that unlocking your HTC device leaves traces even after relock.
lilstevie said:
This is really uncalled for, it has ALWAYS been the case that if you root your phone, you lose your warranty. In this case samsung track it by flipping a bit, so they know when you have voided the warranty, many other devices handle this in the form of bootloader unlocks. Once you unlock a bootloader on other devices the process is recorded, purely to void your warranty. This is nothing new, perhaps attaching the name KNOX to it has given you the idea that it is corporate security etc. If it were simply called "Warranty void bit" it would be no more or less related to knox (it just happens that knox shares some of the security mechanisms with how the bit is controlled).
And while we are talking about consumer rights. As the manufacturer of a product it is their right to refuse warranty due to tampering with the software. Maybe with the warranty void bit they can save a few bucks in warranty fraud from people who break their devices with root. As for "going as far to judge who deserve warranty or not" I've already stated that it has always been the case that if you tamper with the software your device warranty is void. Hell, Samsung have had some of the most lax security policies over their devices for the past few years with regards to tracking tampering. Next thing you know you will be complaining that unlocking the bootloader on your sony device is irreversible, or that unlocking your HTC device leaves traces even after relock.
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Voluntarily voiding your warranty is one thing,unilaterally voiding warranty for trying to downgrade to an earlier version of rom is considered what again?
no one says manufacturer rights shouldn't be protected.but what samdung is doing here is voiding warranty based on the knox bit.unilateral refusing warranty coz knox bit is tripped.and consumer should have the right of full access to their phone.not some two bit restricted access based on samdung's specfications.
rooting so that we can use apps like TB or Greenify is what i called reasonable.Rooting so that you can overclock the cpu and then crying for warranty when its burnt is what i called being a fraud.and most of us want root is mainly due to the former and not latter.so why should consumer be penalized for wanting full admin access to their phones?
i have no qualms about sony or htc's open door policy when it comes to voiding your warranty.at least they are open about it and giving you a choice to do it and also allowing you to have an unlocked bootloader.with samdung,they are like "oh we are ok with rooting,but hey we keep the bootloader locked,so no downgrade,no warranty and sucks to be you".
Yeah,consumer rights my baby smooth behind.
and dun worry too much about being called a samdung fanboy.that wasn't directed at you,rather a certain individual who has been championing samdung's knox warranty void (and their corporate interests)with arguments like security risk,malicious intentions to break the rules of your warranty and the mother of all bullcrap "flashing stock firmware will never void your warranty unless it has an older bootloader version (security risk)".
frostmore said:
Voluntarily voiding your warranty is one thing,unilaterally voiding warranty for trying to downgrade to an earlier version of rom is considered what again?
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And compared to some devices that don't even let you downgrade at all, whether you want to void your warranty or not are any different because?
frostmore said:
no one says manufacturer rights shouldn't be protected.but what samdung is doing here is voiding warranty based on the knox bit.unilateral refusing warranty coz knox bit is tripped.and consumer should have the right of full access to their phone.not some two bit restricted access based on samdung's specfications.
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Okay, first of all, using terms like "samdung" is just making you sound like a petulant child. It really does not help your case at all. Secondly, you are contradicting yourself in one swoop here, saying that they should be able to protect their rights, but they shouldn't have a mechanism to be able to protect their rights.
frostmore said:
rooting so that we can use apps like TB or Greenify is what i called reasonable.Rooting so that you can overclock the cpu and then crying for warranty when its burnt is what i called being a fraud.and most of us want root is mainly due to the former and not latter.so why should consumer be penalized for wanting full admin access to their phones?
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Please tell me what the difference is. Sure I get why you want to use Greenify, or TB, but tell me how from the perspective of the manufacturer how they can tell the difference on a broken phone. Why should the OEM have to pay for all those devices bricked through stupid actions of users with root access (and it is more common than you think) for the benefit of the few that will not destroy their device in the process.
frostmore said:
i have no qualms about sony or htc's open door policy when it comes to voiding your warranty.at least they are open about it and giving you a choice to do it and also allowing you to have an unlocked bootloader.
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Samsungs policy towards warranty is your device is excluded through the act of modification, that is to hardware or software. Sony and HTC have a similar policy rooting, in fact I don't think I have seen any device on the market where the warranty is maintained on rooting. Please note here, I'm not saying that people haven't gotten their devices repaired after rooting. I'm simply noting the act of rooting in most territories around the world constitutes breach of terms for the warranty and therefore makes that null and void.
frostmore said:
with samdung,they are like "oh we are ok with rooting,but hey we keep the bootloader locked,so no downgrade,no warranty and sucks to be you".
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Um, no. Samsung are like "we are okay with everything, but note that modification of the software on your device constitutes voiding your warranty". Unless you have a carrier variant like an AT&T device or Verizon device the bootloader is unlocked, as in, it was never locked down in the first place, you can open up heimdall or odin with the device connected in download mode, and flash it to your hearts content. Downgrading is a tricky situation. Samsung are well within their rights, and in some cases required to as per IP licensing to keep the boot environment secure.
frostmore said:
Yeah,consumer rights my baby smooth behind.
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You mean consumer rights that people have been abusing for years?
frostmore said:
and dun worry too much about being called a samdung fanboy.that wasn't directed at you,rather a certain individual who has been championing samdung's knox warranty void (and their corporate interests)with arguments like security risk,malicious intentions to break the rules of your warranty and the mother of all bullcrap "flashing stock firmware will never void your warranty unless it has an older bootloader version (security risk)".
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I don't worry I'm no fanboy of any device. I am however one that is a firm supporter that if people hadn't been abusing the warranty procedures that these sorts of measures would never have been implemented.
If I have administrator rights in my computer why I can't have the same in my phone?
Does being an administrator in your windows desktop computer void your warranty?
Why I can't unninstal all the apps that I don't use?
Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk
frostmore said:
Voluntarily voiding your warranty is one thing,unilaterally voiding warranty for trying to downgrade to an earlier version of rom is considered what again?
no one says manufacturer rights shouldn't be protected.but what samdung is doing here is voiding warranty based on the knox bit.unilateral refusing warranty coz knox bit is tripped.and consumer should have the right of full access to their phone.not some two bit restricted access based on samdung's specfications.
rooting so that we can use apps like TB or Greenify is what i called reasonable.Rooting so that you can overclock the cpu and then crying for warranty when its burnt is what i called being a fraud.and most of us want root is mainly due to the former and not latter.so why should consumer be penalized for wanting full admin access to their phones?
i have no qualms about sony or htc's open door policy when it comes to voiding your warranty.at least they are open about it and giving you a choice to do it and also allowing you to have an unlocked bootloader.with samdung,they are like "oh we are ok with rooting,but hey we keep the bootloader locked,so no downgrade,no warranty and sucks to be you".
Yeah,consumer rights my baby smooth behind.
and dun worry too much about being called a samdung fanboy.that wasn't directed at you,rather a certain individual who has been championing samdung's knox warranty void (and their corporate interests)with arguments like security risk,malicious intentions to break the rules of your warranty and the mother of all bullcrap "flashing stock firmware will never void your warranty unless it has an older bootloader version (security risk)".
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Ha ha, Samdung!! Like Samsung but like dung. Aww man, did you come up with yourself? That is brilliant
AllanJ60 said:
I do not know why everyone is *****ing about KNOX, I had a look at it after reading the OP's post, from what I can see, and I might be wrong, BUT you actually need to INSTALL it first, otherwise it it just sits there doing nothing. do not like it or want to use it, then DO NOT INSTALL IT, or just disable the KNOX install file, SIMPLE.
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*grins* Yep, you are right... you're wrong. It isn't the Knox software people are upset about, it is the Knox counter that is built in. It is set at 0x0 and if you do anything with your phone except take Samsung OTA updates, which have been tightened even further once they realised the Devs had found a way around their little booby trap, you trigger a change of state in that counter to 0x1.
It is supposed to be irreversible and you can trigger it by doing things Android users have been doing since Android came out. A good number of what are now standard apps require root access and providing that will trigger Knox. As pointed out, if you decide you don't like a particular OTA update (say to KitKat) and try to go back to a previous version (say the one your phone came with) you trigger Knox.
And Samsung is voiding warranties because Knox is triggered. Blanket voiding as far as can be determined. Doesn't matter if there's a hardware issue (say the charge circuit stopped) they will void because that trigger is at 0x1.