Database Info

In case no one saw this. "Samsung Secret"

Take it with a grain of salt. But it sounds mildly legit.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=913045
edit: actually i call b.s.

whiteguypl said:
edit: actually i call b.s.
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Why? I have no firm opinion one way or the other, but just saying "bull****" really doesn't mean much unless you're playing the card game.

How could Samsung charge for an open-source project update? Obviously they must make some modifications to make it fit their phones, but at its core, its still an open source program.

Billabong81 said:
How could Samsung charge for an open-source project update? Obviously they must make some modifications to make it fit their phones, but at its core, its still an open source program.
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Open source doesn't mean free.

I'm inclined to believe it. It makes more sense than trying to say they have been testing it for months. I've had my captivate for 6 months, almost 5 of them running FroYo thanks to the awesome devs here. Has the froyo always been stable and fast? No. But the devs don't work for Samsung with all the resouces, they are doing it in their spare time. I would bet Samsung had a fairly stable, almost complete version of FroYo ready before the phone released.
I am really getting tempted by the Atrix, apart from the awesome hardware and webtop app, Motorola devices get updates. But, they sound harder to flash custom ROMs, so its a give and take. Based on what I saw on the CES coverage, going with only official software may not be so bad.
Sent from my SGH-I897 using XDA App

Makes no sense. Regardless if Samsung charges for feature updates or not, terms of the upgrades would have been set between carrier and Samsung prior to the first handset even being made. Thus outside of any major surprises (which there are none here) the carrier knows from day one what upgrades will be offered, when and at what cost. It's not like Samsung turned around weeks after the devices shipped and said, "Hey. That Froyo upgrade is gonna cost ya, buddy!" That would have been known long before contacts were signed.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using XDA App

Even if thus is true, both AT&T and Samsung have all ready made too many mistakes. Both will lose some business. Yes it won't be enough to hurt either but maybe all the pestering will make them rethink their business models. Probably not. My last Samschmuck phone on AT&T for sure.
Sent from a phone somewhere in the universe

ianwood said:
Makes no sense. Regardless if Samsung charges for feature updates or not, terms of the upgrades would have been set between carrier and Samsung prior to the first handset even being made. Thus outside of any major surprises (which there are none here) the carrier knows from day one what upgrades will be offered, when and at what cost. It's not like Samsung turned around weeks after the devices shipped and said, "Hey. That Froyo upgrade is gonna cost ya, buddy!" That would have been known long before contacts were signed.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using XDA App
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This is the same point I tried to make on the thread. While Samsung may have been the ones to state that Froyo would come to Galaxy S, it may be that the carrier(s) decided to balk on the 2.2 update due to extra cost as probably stipulated by whatever contract they negotiated with Samsung.
If Froyo is already on Canadian carriers' devices (officially) why not U.S. carriers. Something reeks here.
While Samsung should have kept their mouths shut about the update, I'm sure a part is being played by the American carriers here.

Billabong81 said:
How could Samsung charge for an open-source project update? Obviously they must make some modifications to make it fit their phones, but at its core, its still an open source program.
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You are mixing up open source with free software. Ask Richard Stallman the difference
Also, I would imagine that they would not be paying Samsung for the software itself but more so the software development to tailor it to the carriers needs.

This sounds good in theory, but I think it has holes.
this would be the case for all phones on all carriers, but it isn't the same situation.
iphone updates are coming out all the time. With at&t subsidized out the butt on the iphone, I fail to believe they osu for all those updates.
I had a samsung blackjCk, and we went through the same thing with winmo, meanwhile other at&t phones got the updates.

Id have to say honestly in my personal opinion based from facts from an inside source... At&t is so obsessed with the iphone anything that costs them money or time that doesn't increase profits is going to be set on the backburner... Att has a time of year called "Iphone season" where they push the new versions and updates of the iphone to customers.... Seeing as how froyo itself was already released for almost every device on OTHER carriers and att has yet to push a single update aside from the eclaire update i doubt it will ever be coming.
Not to mention if anyone has noticed att removed ALOT of stuff from the captivates before they were able to ship them to customers... for example the third party apk allow button is completely gone from the stock phones due to att and their restrictions and the market having apps that just don't show up becuase of the way att wants to now start locking down phones like apple. (not trying to bash anyone or brands but from what ive seen from someone who loves to customize and believe anything i pay for is mine and i should be able to do as i wish with said product that's how it is in my eyes)
I think that since they have the rage over the iphones (another reason they try to sell them harder then any other phone is because of the "vast amount of accessories" ) it feels like they fell on the band wagon of the craze instead of actually worrying about ALL of their customers. It just seems like since iphone updates are pushed to phone and att doesnt have to deal with them, not to mention if the phone messes up it goes to an apple store and not att.
I've also heard rumors from att employees stating that something was signed with apple to put restrictions on android updates and phones in order to allow exclusivity for the iphone when it was first released. As to the truth behind this, anyones guess is as good as mine. Just seems funny how No att phones have gotten the froyo update unless they've (the customer) installed it themselves.
I wouldn't be looking forward to any updates from what i've seen on my end.

A.VOID said:
This sounds good in theory, but I think it has holes.
this would be the case for all phones on all carriers, but it isn't the same situation.
iphone updates are coming out all the time. With at&t subsidized out the butt on the iphone, I fail to believe they osu for all those updates.
I had a samsung blackjCk, and we went through the same thing with winmo, meanwhile other at&t phones got the updates.
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AT&T has nothing to do with iPhone updates. Matter of fact, AT&T has nothing to do with iPhones at all, except sell them. All iPhone updates are done through iTunes and all iPhone support is handled by Apple. This is not a good comparison.
Even comparing WinMo doesn't really work. I had a Wizard on AT&T, and there was exactly one firmware update, even though there were other versions that were available later. Plus, Windows is not free and not based on open source code. So, carriers would expect to pay for updates with closed source operating systems.

Xaviorin said:
I've also heard rumors from att employees stating that something was signed with apple to put restrictions on android updates and phones in order to allow exclusivity for the iphone when it was first released.
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If that were true, then Apple and AT&T would be facing some serious litigation. This is similar to the deals that Intel made with computer manufacturers, forcing them to slow leak AMD sales in order to sell more Intel chips. Intel paid quite a hefty fine and suffered a serious PR black eye. That type of practice stifles competition and is very, very illegal. So, I doubt that Apple and AT&T would even consider doing that.

Xaviorin said:
Id have to say honestly in my personal opinion based from facts from an inside source... At&t is so obsessed with the iphone anything that costs them money or time that doesn't increase profits is going to be set on the backburner... Att has a time of year called "Iphone season" where they push the new versions and updates of the iphone to customers.... Seeing as how froyo itself was already released for almost every device on OTHER carriers and att has yet to push a single update aside from the eclaire update i doubt it will ever be coming.
Not to mention if anyone has noticed att removed ALOT of stuff from the captivates before they were able to ship them to customers... for example the third party apk allow button is completely gone from the stock phones due to att and their restrictions and the market having apps that just don't show up becuase of the way att wants to now start locking down phones like apple. (not trying to bash anyone or brands but from what ive seen from someone who loves to customize and believe anything i pay for is mine and i should be able to do as i wish with said product that's how it is in my eyes)
I think that since they have the rage over the iphones (another reason they try to sell them harder then any other phone is because of the "vast amount of accessories" ) it feels like they fell on the band wagon of the craze instead of actually worrying about ALL of their customers. It just seems like since iphone updates are pushed to phone and att doesnt have to deal with them, not to mention if the phone messes up it goes to an apple store and not att.
I've also heard rumors from att employees stating that something was signed with apple to put restrictions on android updates and phones in order to allow exclusivity for the iphone when it was first released. As to the truth behind this, anyones guess is as good as mine. Just seems funny how No att phones have gotten the froyo update unless they've (the customer) installed it themselves.
I wouldn't be looking forward to any updates from what i've seen on my end.
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Conspiracy theory much? Like someone said, your theories border on anti-competitive in practice. AT&T is also not so obsessed with the iPhone given how much they've diversified their smartphone portfolio in the past 9 months (+2 WebOS devices, +2 BlackBerrys, +3 Windows Phones, +5 Android devices).

I'm usually skeptical about these things, but this is about the only rumor that makes sense.
For those comparing it to the iphone, its like comparing oranges to apples. Apple pretty much takes care of everything on their side.At&t just peddles their product. Apple has a 400 person call center just for the iphone, next door to where I work.
Apple makes the hardware and creates the OS.
Samsung just makes hardware which is a good thing considering how bad their software engineers are at coding.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I897 using XDA App

I'm more in the conspiracy theory side
Don't trust everything you read.
Thing about it deeply, what is more likely:
A Sammy employee risked his job, created an account just to create this post, and tell us the truth about the updates and how bad his employer is? seriously? What did he gain by doing this post? peace of mind? can he go to sleep now that he has revealed the truth of the US-only updates? Does really the Samsung employees care this much for only the US based users? This smells, and bad.
Now lets look at the conspiracy side. An AT&T employee notices our frustration against them. They see that seem to be more frustrated people are the non tech-savvy ones; that we got to admit they are more than us and represent a big number for them. On the other hand I bet they receive a gazillion calls from you guys on these subject.
Wouldn't be more likely than AT&T representative created that post to wash their hands and pass the blame to sammy? Isn't them who released a restricted phone and made a deal with Samsung saying that they will be in charge of this phone's updates? Samsungs cost in releasing an update of a phone that is almost equal to 6 other phones they released is null; whereas AT&T cost in updating their crap is high. Don't be blind. Carriers are the new tyrants. They will do anything in their power to get more money. If you could see what they are able to do in countries like mine you wont even doubt this. In my country of such a deal is made you can forget that you will ever get updates. There even is a carrier that, after 4 months passed that you have purchased a motorola's android based phone, charges you 10 uss monthly for MOTO BLUR, and this was written in the small print of the contract... seriously... I've seen carriers cancel their users contracts, saying they requested that, to bill them their contract-cancelation fee...
I could go on with this for pages... I've witnessed carriers lying, deceiving, and even more right in the people's face. If you want to check this, and know some spanish or use translators, just google "Claro hijos de puta" (sons of a...) or "claro estafa" (scam); both searches give more than 3 million results, and you wont imagine what you might find inside those pages...
This whole thing smells badly. And if I had to bet, I would say that post was made by a carrier to buy them time, or even to start making up an excuse so they wont ever release an update... after all, they would be the only ones that would benefit from such events...

I'm through waiting
This story was the final straw for me, whether it's true or not. I am tired of the drama and am no longer waiting for AT&T and/or Samsung to deliver what AT&T told me would happen when I bought the phone. If AT&T store staff said something incorrect it was corporate's fault for not guiding their staff correctly. I was told shortly Froyo was coming, but it never came. Samsung said on Twitter/Facebook we all would have Froyo last year. There is no excuse for what they have done, none. I've waded through the myriad of 3rd party ROMs and was leery of the leaked Froyo ones due to everyone seemed to have an issue here or there. The 9000 ROMs sounded exciting but came with issues I didn't want. I just want a working GPS and a stable phone, running Froyo, what I thought I was getting last summer.
Now that Rogers released a North American ROM and the talented coders have seized upon it, we seem to be approaching a new level of stability with Froyo. After reading up on the various Rogers ROM based images I installed Cognition (donation coming later tonight) and after 30 minutes of playing around, I am home with Froyo now. I am beyond tired of waiting for AT&T and/or Samsung to do the honorable thing for they are not honorable companies. I doubt another Samsung will grace my pocket and yet maybe it will be the 3rd party coders that will ultimately deliver what I have waited patiently for, for months. Wouldn't it be a wonderful environment if Samsung would just release the source to everything and let those out here, those infinitely more talented than Samsung staff, have access to the code they need to work pure magic.

Billabong81 said:
How could Samsung charge for an open-source project update? Obviously they must make some modifications to make it fit their phones, but at its core, its still an open source program.
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polarbee said:
Open source doesn't mean free.
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Open source comes under GPL license. This isn't the one that is of cost, but the efforts involved in packing for a device, its extensive testing is what is costly.
In the most simplest of terms, the following people would be involved:
Business Team x 3 people
Development Team x 6 people
Testing/QA Team x 10 people
To take care of these people:
Project Manager x 1 person
Team Leads x 3 people (1 for each team)
Taking this to 23 people, to say the least.
On an average, if we pay each person say $ 50k for 6 months effort, it would be $ 50,000 x 23 = $ 1,150,000 i.e., $ 1.15 millions for 6 months.
Now see, this is only the minimal scale. For a phone so wide spread, I would assume a team of atleast 50 where managers charge more than 100-200k a year.
Now u see why Samsung doesn't wish to put this kind of money into a phone already sold, and is looking into marketing newer phones.

I think its all hoopla.
This "leak" of sensitive information on one of many android forums is only going to reach the eyes of a hand full of readers.
We (the brave souls wanting new updates for our gadgets and willing to hack them to get it) are very few in numbers compared to the vast amounts of consumers who own this phone, and usually don't give a hoot about a new update/upgrade for their phones ROM, IF they even know what the heck it is. They only care that their calls and texts go through, and they can browse the web on their lunch break.
The ONLY issue that most would care about is the GPS issues we have had. And I bet that AT&T, and Samsung have both received tens of thousands of customer complaints regarding Mr. Joe Average not being able to find his way on his family vacation. Again, we are but a small number compared to that. I would think that alone would motivate something to happen, at least an OTA update to fix the GPS issues. Nope.
So other than an intellectual debate on "why haves", and "why have nots" on a forum like this, there is nothing else this message could possibly accomplish.
The above thread, and this one will slowly slide down the thread list and be forgotten and nothing else will change.

The Bottom Line
Rumors aside, if it doesn't sell more phones, minutes or data plans and it can be avoided without seriously upsetting customers, they won't bother. Outside of our merry band of flash-a-holics, what percent of Captivate owners even know what Froyo is or care?
Also, judging by the JH7 OTA debacle, Samsung's OTA upgrade capability is decidedly unreliable. I'd bet that caused a mountain of returns. AT&T HATES returns!!! Costs them a fortune. The cost of paying Samsung for a Froyo upgrade is a drop in the bucket by comparison. So a bad OTA system is worse than none at all. If AT&T can get away with avoiding it, they will.
I think our best hope is to make A LOT of noise! Complain to Samsung, AT&T and Google. Do it publicly on FB, Twitter, etc. Do it often. A small vocal group of XDA readers can probably stir up a decent amount of attention at AT&T if they coordinated their efforts.

Is anyone else REALLY pissed off that Google is charging ahead with 4.1?

I mean, honestly.. I am pissed. Something like 70% of all Android handsets are still running 2.3 and Google is blasting ahead with 4.1 rather than helping hardware developers get as much of the existing handsets at least to 4.0.
http://www.h-online.com/open/news/i...-Android-phones-1596740.html?view=zoom;zoom=1
I understand they need to continue to develop Android, but at what cost? The market is so tragically fractured that I don't think there is even a desire from the hardware manufacturers or carriers to see existing hardware get updated. It is so god damned frustrating, ESPECIALLY now that Google owns Motorola!

The holdup on our devices isn't Google, it's the manufacturers and the service providers.
So nope, I'm not pissed...at Google. At Motorola? Yep. They've had the source for a good long while now, and they just haven't moved their butts to get everything ported properly. It's a major upgrade, yes, but once they got the first device upgraded, it shouldn't have been too big of a stretch to get the rest after that.
As for AT&T, as far as I'm concerned they need to butt out, they don't have a (legitimate) dog in this fight.

Not trying to be a smart ass but who cares? There are more important things in life to get mad about and a new software for a phone is not one of them.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I997 using xda premium

Amen brother!

Yeah, who cares...I think it's great...advancement is awesome!!! If anything this puts more pressure on Manufacturers and Carriers to release updates (maybe). If Google stopped and waited on the rest of the world, they wouldn't be where they are today...I hope they start chatter about the next release soon...Full Court Press!!!

Just Realizing... OEMs are Taking Advantage of us!

Alright, so after reading a couple articles on a bunch of sites. I can sort of understand a vicious cycle that's going on in the mobile development world.
First off, let me begin, Mobile OEMs (as we all know) don't release updates very often. And as a general rule, when they do... it's usually a couple months late. Just look at HTC devices, most of the (somewhat) older devices (depending on what you're definition of older is) aren't getting the updates to ICS for while http://goo.gl/FjcMJ . And in some cases they just decide not to update them at all. (see the Desire HD and possibly the Thunderbolt http://goo.gl/BwZld )
Initially when Android started, this was a little different. And allow me to clarify by going far far back, to the first Android device. The HTC Dream.
It initially came out with Android 1.0 (Astro) it eventually got updated all the way to the software version 1.5 (Cupcake). If you look back then, that's two software updates! Astro to Bender to Cupcake.
Now let's look at just about any other Android device (not made my Samsung, for the most part they're a bad example... (of course then again, they have the head of Cyanogenmod Steve Kondik on their team).
We're going to look at Motorola, because despite the fact that it's owned by Google, not all of their devices have received updates. And the device I've chosen from them is the defy. Now if you look over at the development section of the forums you'll see that we have a working (and apparently a very smooth) port of Jelly Bean for the Defy. http://goo.gl/mE1Qy
But if you decide to see what Motorola's deciding to do to update it from Gingerbread, well... their development section is devoid of everything for the Defy... http://goo.gl/g8XN0
Now why does that matter to us happy go lucky developers and modders? Well let's look over this little scenario I've played out in my head more than once.
CEO#1 "Oh they want Jelly Bean?"
CEO#2 "Yeah they do..."
CEO#1 "So what are we going to do about it?"
CEO#2 *checks XDA* "Nothing, the ones who really care about it have a working ROM up already."
CEO#1 "Okay, sounds good to me. So are you ready to go make some more phones with high specs and outdated software?"
CEO#2 "Well if we start now, we should be able to get six new devices running ICS 4.0.3 out by mid December!"
CEO#1 "Ohh, not even having the latest version of ICS is really going to get them. Brilliant!"
This is a vicious cycle that just keeps going around, and around, and around. The problem is that there doesn't seem to be a way to stop it. While we need Superuser and rooting privileges, we also need updates to the latest version of Android OS to keep us going.
OEMs on the other hand see us as free labor for development and as the only people who really want/need the updates. The problem is that with their history of sending out updates we really can't stop working. And even when they do send out updates, sometimes they aren't even fully stable! (see Evo 3D http://goo.gl/VzCNM )
So the question is, how are we going to stop this?

Buy devices from the companies that keep things up to date. The Nexus gets direct pushes from Google so you know you're good there. Sony has a dedicated line to developers through their forums and even offers devices for temporary dev use and has reasonably priced unsubsidised phones.
Put your dollars in the right places if you want to make change happen. Those who want full access still aren't a large enough part of the market to shape everything. That said, people pushing for control have made sure that iDevices can be jailbroken and HTC is staggering hard because of mis-steps in marketing that have been worsened by lackluster updates and their decision to shun the dev community that was bolstering them.

They can't look at xda or whatever Android forum because there is a larger population of users who have no idea what rooting is, let alone custom ROMs. Those people depend on updates and if they won't get an official update, they won't get one at all.
Sent from my MB508 using xda premium

If you ask 10 Android users what version of Android they are on, 8 of them will have no clue, 1 will know because the sales rep used it as a selling point, and one of them will be running Jellybean (thanks to XDA!).
Consumer demand is not high enough to demand the cost of testing new software on dated phones. Sad but true.

thebeastglasser said:
OEMs on the other hand see us as free labor for development and as the only people who really want/need the updates.
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If they really saw us as free labor, they would release a phone with cyanogenmod or something and just kang whatever works for their next update. (Actually, this would be a very good idea.)
However, in actuality, they just don't care about the devs. Too busy trying to differentiate their products with custom skins and cause more work for everyone.

It is true that most people don't know much more than that they are are android or "droid", just like many people don't know much more than they have an Iphone. The vocal majority of phone users (online) however have quite a bit more knowledge which means they get much more feedback from the minority.
One of the main reasons (other than price) that I got a Nexus 7 was due to the fact that Google pushes updates immediately to their nexus devices. I see this as an additional "perk".

You can't buy a device Android or other from an OEM or carrier and expect to get the latest greatest updates a or mods any too quickly. Forums and sites like xda bring in developers and users who ate eager to offer mods and help that you will never find coming from the mainstream as quickly or with the same quality. I get the device I want and look to here to make it better quicker.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using xda app-developers app

But what I see is that there are a bunch of phones that could easily be running better software (like the Defy) but OEMs clearly see that anybody who seems to care enough about updates are doing it themselves. The problem is, there are relatives of mine who refuse to root and yet they know enough about phones to know what version they're running and know the difference between the two versions. The one they currently have, and the one they could have.
I feel like this is kind of unfair to the sed-mentioned people and on top of that, it makes uneducated users buy more phones, while it keeps people like us are at work.
I'd bet that it was a pain in the a** porting ICS to the Desire HD no thanks to HTC, and yet this is just one less job for HTC and a hell of a lot more work for us... That's just me.
And also, that idea for a "pre-kanged" phone or one running a version of Cyanogenmod is pretty good. It'd be a great idea...

Again, speak with your dollars. I have no doubt that Nexus sales will continue to climb not only because of devs, but because people who just end up with them will like seeing timely updates and devices that continue to get better and better. If you want to help the rise of affordable, quality devices then steer others toward them when you can and buy them yourself when it's time for something new.

Also, people on xda do not see development as a "work", they see it as a hobby...
So even if all the phones were on the latest android, the dev community here at Xda would still be hard at "work" to come up with something better...something which the OEM's and Google couldn't think of implementing even with such large resources at their disposal...
And let's face it, apart from games, the general public in large doesn't have "need" for BETTER phones...
I've seen the likes of HTC One X and Galaxy S3 go in the hands of people for whom multitasking would mean chatting on whatsapp while waiting for the fb app to load...
So the question would arise, if the public doesn't "need" better phones, how do we sell it to them?
The answer becomes clear, stop giving them updates...make them feel that their device is outdated...that they "need" a NEW and BETTER phone...
The ones who understand the capability of their phone would have the ability, or more importantly, the will to make the updates happen...
For the rest, well there's fancy advertising...
Hope this clears up...
- Via xda premium

Yeah, I suppose it makes sense. Thanks guys!

How many people are there using Android? About 60% of the market, which means hundred milion users How many members do we have here on XDA? Less than hundred thousands! It means that regular users dont know and dont care what OS they use or even dont know what the update is. Froyo, GB, ICS, JB sound like alien languages for most of regular users. For those who know wat they are using, they are already XDA members, the rest just doesnt care or they just simply buy an iCrapple. Therefore, there is no way you can stop that. Customers are always taken granted by companies.
Sent from my SGH-T989 using xda app-developers app

Extreemly well put. We all knew it but didn't say anything. I am awaiting the next nexus for this very reason. Props to thebeastglasser

MissionImprobable said:
Again, speak with your dollars. I have no doubt that Nexus sales will continue to climb
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The bundling is too strong with this market. When there are literally only one or two phone brands, usually otherwise sub-par, that are stock, the voting with dollars won't make much of a difference. It's like voting in an election where a lot of people who might prefer a pure candidate are given tons of reasons to go with more mainstream ones.
So how can change actually be effected? First and most obviously, google might dictate to motorola to make stock phones. Hopefully, that will happen and stock android will start getting a positive reputation for straightforward and automatic upgrades.
The other option starts at grassroots levels: this bundling leaves a gap in the market, and eventually someone should step in to fill that gap. I can imagine small start ups in third-world countries (where price is a real issue) revitalizing older brands with the highest supported cyanogenmod, then selling them at still relatively low prices for a profit. If there is enough demand for this, this "repackaging" business would be emulated all over and the OEMs might start to take a hint.

For the record there are over four million members on XDA...

thebeastglasser said:
For the record there are over four million members on XDA...
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Not currently active users though. Remember XDA used to make you register to download files so that jacked up the member rate.

thebobp said:
The bundling is too strong with this market. When there are literally only one or two phone brands, usually otherwise sub-par, that are stock, the voting with dollars won't make much of a difference. It's like voting in an election where a lot of people who might prefer a pure candidate are given tons of reasons to go with more mainstream ones.
So how can change actually be effected? First and most obviously, google might dictate to motorola to make stock phones. Hopefully, that will happen and stock android will start getting a positive reputation for straightforward and automatic upgrades.
The other option starts at grassroots levels: this bundling leaves a gap in the market, and eventually someone should step in to fill that gap. I can imagine small start ups in third-world countries (where price is a real issue) revitalizing older brands with the highest supported cyanogenmod, then selling them at still relatively low prices for a profit. If there is enough demand for this, this "repackaging" business would be emulated all over and the OEMs might start to take a hint.
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The Chinese market is already doing that, and with brand new phones that come both rooted and sometimes unlocked. Yes, there are other markets in which this can be done, but it doesn't make sense to talk on the one hand about voting with dollars not making a difference and then saying third-world resellers will change the game.
Google is marketing a clean, recognizable line in their Nexus devices, advertising intelligently, and making sure that they continue to stay on the latest firmware. Supporting them and other companies who do so will dictate what model corporations follow. Again, HTC is eating crow because their abandonment of the dev community and their decision to spread themselves thin, ala Motorola, who are also being dug out of a hole now by Google. I'd say both companies have paid the price for ignoring what the marketplace demands.
Moto had everyone hooked with the original Droid so there is no doubt that share is won or lost by how you approach relevancy for the long run. Go back and look at how many people loved their OG Droids in every way but have now moved on to other brands because of locked bootloaders and lack of firmware updates on the models that followed. Money makes the corporate world go round and every little bit helps.
Grassroots movements have done everything from keeping the iPhone legal to jailbreak to getting a man his goodies when a WP store tried to pull a fast one in regards to him winning the WP challenge to getting VZ to clarify that they wouldn't be doing anything to their Unlimited users. We may not be the majority, but we are far more organized and informed than the masses and as such what we do gets noticed and picked up on by tech, blog, and news coverage. The only ones who don't make change happen are the naysayers who sit by and do nothing. Support the brands that support the customers and devs.

MissionImprobable said:
The Chinese market is already doing that, and with brand new phones that come both rooted and sometimes unlocked. Yes, there are other markets in which this can be done, but it doesn't make sense to talk on the one hand about voting with dollars not making a difference and then saying third-world resellers will change the game.
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Sure voting makes sense.. if you're in another country where the election's not as rigged.
MissionImprobable said:
Again, HTC is eating crow because their abandonment of the dev community and their decision to spread themselves thin, ala Motorola, who are also being dug out of a hole now by Google. I'd say both companies have paid the price for ignoring what the marketplace demands.
Moto had everyone hooked with the original Droid so there is no doubt that share is won or lost by how you approach relevancy for the long run. Go back and look at how many people loved their OG Droids in every way but have now moved on to other brands because of locked bootloaders and lack of firmware updates on the models that followed. Money makes the corporate world go round and every little bit helps.
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I'm not really convinced that Motorola's and HTC's losses were due to locked bootloaders, or even lack of firmware updates. Rather, I think it's due to brand inertia: at some point, Samsung came up with a phone (the Galaxy S2) that was so far ahead of anything else on the market at the time, that they just grabbed market share and brand loyalty from many of the consumers on the market. This has little to do with the Galaxy Nexus, and indeed their "next big thing" has been the horribly backward (from a stock perspective) S3 and the Note.

It's been my perception that there is a strong correlation between developer support and whatever device I want to get next.
When I got my very first phone, it was the Samsung Captivate.
It had (Still has) great dev support. I decided not to wait a month to get the Moto Atrix because, there was no predicting what kind of dev support it would have despite having great specs. I find that (generally speaking) Samsung phones have had strong dev support.
I sort of hate to point this out.. But, if you think the "average consumer" cares about upgrades.. I would be inclined to disagree. A lot of people do care about upgrades.. Myself, my girlfriend, a lot of people who frequent forums in general.
Still, your average consumer is probably more concerned with the screen size than the software it's packing. Even if ICS is "nicer" and "more elegant" there are a lot of people who really don't know or even care what OS their phone is running. As long as they can text and check facebook, they aren't going to be bothered with the small details of "Jellybean" or "ICS"
I have to be completely honest when I admit, if I were a manufacturer.. I don't honestly know how inclined I would be to release OS updates. Not because I want to be an evil corporation and force you to upgrade to get the newest OS.. But, because putting it plain and simply.. It takes time, energy, and money to release an update. If *ANYTHING* goes wrong with the update and even a single person doesn't follow the instructions.. It becomes really hard to prove they are the one at fault. So you spend your time and energy making an update, potentially having more cost incurred due to possibly damaged hardware, and then finally.. wondering how many people really cared in the first place. A lot of people don't care and even won't upgrade their phone because, they perceive it as "a pointless endeavor."

thebobp said:
Sure voting makes sense.. if you're in another country where the election's not as rigged.
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What does this have to do with supporting companies that support us? Voting with your dollars is a metaphor; it doesn't mean that there is an election for phones.

AT&t chat about one xl jelly bean roll out.

Hey peeps just for kicks I contacted customer un-support to inquire about hox at&t jelly bean update.The following is my chat,where the tech gets mad at me for,asking them to send me the update since they cant fix it.Then he ends the chat,when I say his pre-written statement's are insulting,and the at&t devs are amateur's. I thought it was hilarious,this guy did not.
Thank you for your patience! Your AT&T Representative will be with you shortly.
Welcome! You are now chatting with 'Geofrey Holt '
Geofrey Holt : Hello Blaz1nr, My name is Geoffrey and I would be happy to help you today. Please give me one moment to look up your account information.
Geofrey Holt : Just so I understand your problem your phone is not updated to jellybean?
blaz1nr: I know for sure you recieved to software upgrade from HTC over 3 months ago.Is your dev team having problems? No one x is receiving the update its not even slated for roll out,according to sources at at&t.
blaz1nr: So when can i expect update this?
Geofrey Holt : Have you checked your phone to see if it is available for a update?
blaz1nr: I just told you its not available to any U.S at&t htc one xl.You at at&T have not provided the update yet. You guys are operating these devices on my airwaves, the publicly owned bandwidth that is leased by the FCC in the public's best interest. Yet somehow we pay alot more for service that is accompanied by terrible customer service,and updates & support clearly are a part of that. This also hints as to why AT&T has lost most its customer base,and become rated dead last for customer service by Consumer Reports and other rating agencies
blaz1nr: I was asking you to check your data base,and tell me when this update will be allowed by at&t.
Geofrey Holt : Just one moment please.
Geofrey Holt : At&t is trying to put this update out as soon as possible. They are pushing this update out in batches. And we do not know when those batches are pushed out. You will receive a text message on your phone when it is available for your phone.
Geofrey Holt : I know this can be frustrating but we are trying to get these updates out as quickly as possible.
blaz1nr: That's exactly it.You have no idea when it will push out.And do you think its ok that only at&t held this update from its customers? I don't appreciate being giving a sorry just wait answer.I know for sure at&t has not even began to do this.So what your tell me is a total lie,or you know nothing about the company you work for.The one xl+ has received two its already going to the next platform again. This phone came much much later. As I expected we the customer are left,with terrible support and no real answers as to why the whole world has this update and we cannot. We the customer own your terrible company,and we demand the same respect other carriers give their customers.
Geofrey Holt : Just to confirm your your HTC one x that you are using is on # ****?
blaz1nr: nope ****
Geofrey Holt : Once a update is released by the manufacture at&t puts it through testing. once they are confidant that it will work with the at&t network it will be released. I do apologize but we do not have a release date.
Geofrey Holt : Are you still with me in this chat?
blaz1nr: well just to let you know,it does work,in fact the version from Canada,works perfect and its from a different carrier altogether.Almost 15 years as a customer and this what I get.Ill tell you what send me the update,ill have it stable and ready to push by tonight.That's how fast I can do it,and I have had no schooling for this at all.But i can for sure fix this entire update in under one day.By my self.This just proves someone like me that can build this from source with no training at all,is far more quilified then your own dev team. This is very sad.You should be ashamed of your subpar dev team.SEND ME THE UPDATE ILL FIX IT.This is total bull%h!&.
Geofrey Holt : Once a manufacturer releases an update to us, AT&T puts it through rigorous testing to ensure its compatibility with our network. Only once we are satisfied that the update will work properly on our systems without causing a negative customer experience will we then make it available for our AT&T branded devices. This can sometimes be a lengthy process that may include working with the manufacturer and developers to make needed changes. There have been some instances in the past where we have simply never released updates due to conflicts and unresolvable problems. At this time the update you are looking for is not yet available for your AT&T device. I am sorry, but we will need to wait to see if and when it is approved by our testing team.
blaz1nr : Well it seems you didn't actually read anything i typed did you? Did you read anything it at all? I tell you what,your pre-written answers are insulting.Do you think were stupid? Your not pushing it because you put it on the end of support list.Which you never stated.You have done nothing but insult my intelligence.This is very typical of so called tech support at at&t.
Your AT&T representative has closed the chat session

Sounds like you were being a **** to a guy that was just trying to do his job.

Well if not telling the truth is doing your job, then yes I was.
Sent from my HTC One X using Xparent Green Tapatalk 2

7786 said:
Sounds like you were being a **** to a guy that was just trying to do his job.
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+100 to this. You are the kind of customer I hate. An arrogant know it all that takes out his frustration on the minimum wage employees that have absolutely no control over your problem. Go fall in a ditch
Sent from my One X using xda app-developers app

blaz1nr said:
Well if not telling the truth is doing your job, then yes I was.
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The guy was telling the truth as he knows it, and can only tell you what he is being told. Customer service reps don't do the testing, not part of the certification team, and have nothing to do with the release of the update. All he can tell you is what he is being told, and what he is scripted to say.
There is a 17 page thread on the AT&T community forum, with similar complaints as you. There is an AT&T community manager that has been active on that thread named jamileh, and she has been a bit more forthcoming than the CS agent you chatted with. But she didn't have any better of an answer. She understands that people are *****ing and moaning about the delay, and she has been bugging the certification team at least twice a week to get any information on when it will be released. All they will tell her is that its being worked on, but there is no ETA. That is probably as much information as you are going to get from any AT&T employee.
Anyway, why would someone complain about such a thing on XDA? This is the place for phone mods and custom ROMs. Just unlock the bootloader, load a custom ROM, and be done with it.

First off the guy is a high yield account rep. This meaning 15 or more devices on one account. Secondly he does in fact know, that the update was canceled due to eod listing. So that being said, and since I chat with the same guy multiple times. He has stated before that the eod list is visible, and they can tell you if it's not going to update. But At&t policy is never to say your device is eod. So before you blindly post comments, it's good to know the facts.
Sent from my HTC One X using Xparent Green Tapatalk 2

blaz1nr said:
First off the guy is a high yield account rep. This meaning 15 or more devices on one account. Secondly he does in fact know, that the update was canceled due to eod listing. So that being said, and since I chat with the same guy multiple times. He has stated before that the eod list is visible, and they can tell you if it's not going to update. But At&t policy is never to say your device is eod. So before you blindly post comments, it's good to know the facts.
Sent from my HTC One X using Xparent Green Tapatalk 2
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Then why the hell did you bother him? Especially if you already know the answer to your question? Just load a custom ROM and stfu
Sent from my Nexus 10 using xda app-developers app

Terrible. Notfunny. Not helpful. Unnecessary.
Sent from my Evita

redpoint73 said:
There is a 17 page thread on the AT&T community forum, with similar complaints as you.
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I just tracked it down. My head hurts.
At this point, there is no doubt in my mind that the update is being delayed intentionally for marketing reasons. It will probably come out eventually, but I would guess not until at least a month after the One is available.

I followed all of those posts on the AT&T forums for some time about two months ago...just a lot of butt hurt people all raging on the death star, some with purpose and some without. I especially love all the people threatening to leave because of a software update :laugh:
Listen, that's the reason why we have the brilliant minds here in this community. READ, MOD, and be MERRY! If people don't like what AT&T has to offer, then there is competition out there, but I hear the same from Verizon customers frequently.
None of these companies promise or really owe any of us anything and to expect otherwise is naivety.
I feel a little sorry for that CSR...

iElvis said:
I just tracked it down. My head hurts.
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18 pages now.
I dropped out of that thread a while ago. Its basically just page after page of people complaining over and over. Often just the same people complaining again and again. Beating a dead horse, and its not going to make AT&T move any faster.
---------- Post added at 01:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:33 PM ----------
blaz1nr said:
he does in fact know, that the update was canceled due to eod listing.
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EOD? You mean EOL (end of life)?
End of day?
Eve of Destruction?
AT&T (as well as other carriers) tend to keep phones around for quite a while. So I doubt the One X is EOL. They are still selling the Vivid (8 months older than the One X) as new (not a refurb).

Closing this before it really gets out hand
XDA Moderator

[Q] Is our phone already done?

With Lenovo's acquisition of Motorola Mobility, are we no longer going to receive updates? What's the future look like?

If Lenovo wants to make anything of it, they should be focusing on the updates for the newer phones and keeping the current customer base happy so we don't switch out to another company. Releasing new devices won't do much if people aren't happy with what we already have.
Sent from my XT1080 using XDA Premium

I can't see them not updating these phones they are moto's flagships why would they not update them. They also have no other phones out that will compete with us at this time.

That's what I thought. I was harassed by a third-party retailer about Motorola not pushing anymore updates before they gave me the phone I kept asking for and they were almost forcing me to get a Samsung phone which I would absolutely HATE. It's like they know what's best for me, Samsungs are overrated and have poor quality anyways... I called BS and had to walk away but it got me wondering, "What if...?" Anyways, I guess they really don't have a reason to drop us so early.

kcipopnevets said:
That's what I thought. I was harassed by a third-party retailer about Motorola not pushing anymore updates before they gave me the phone I kept asking for and they were almost forcing me to get a Samsung phone which I would absolutely HATE. It's like they know what's best for me, Samsungs are overrated and have poor quality anyways... I called BS and had to walk away but it got me wondering, "What if...?" Anyways, I guess they really don't have a reason to drop us so early.
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Yea if they want to make any sort of name for themselves they'll keep the updates coming and keep the existing customer base happy. Im pretty sure the deal hasn't fully gone through yet, so technically Google still owns Motorola for a little bit longer. Someone chime in if I'm wrong.
Sent from my XT1080 using XDA Premium

Just my 2 cents but I kinda feel like our phones are losing love from not only the suppliers but the public. The devs losing interest cuz well most us on this forum are here cuz we like the exploits and rooting, being harder to accomplish that we see that community is just kinda saying screw it I got better things to do. I love the droid ultra and maxx, and I feel the Samsung line is a chick phone (just a personal feeling don't hate me for that remark) but saying that I also see the galaxy and note are booming with the exploits and possibilities. What if (my conspiracy theorists mode talking here) they wanna junk down the line of moto phones and lock em up tight so that we as consumers with that urge to break and root are only left to spend the extra cash to get Dev models lol
Sent from my XT1080 using xda app-developers app
Sent from my XT1080 using xda app-developers app

@jayo Haha, I see Sammie's phones the same way! Anyways, Samsung doesn't try to lock down their phones like Moto has been since the Droid X days. And I think Motorola wants to aim at average consumers so interested devs should have to pay more which is kinda ridiculous since it's easier to produce a vulnerable bootloader. I wish Developer's Edition was available on contract, though. That tag is a huge hit... I'd rather pay it off over time.
Anyways...I thought the hardware was entitled to us? If we brick or screw up our phones, wouldn't that be good since we're spending more?