Say you own two phones, one with a good IMEI one with a bad IMEI. Both are from different manufacturers. Would it be possible to swap out the good IMEI from one phone over to the phone with the bad one, despite the phones having been made by different manufacturers?
Maybe? But IMEI changing is illegal so I wouldn't recommend it
Sent from my DROID2 using xda premium
gagdude said:
Maybe? But IMEI changing is illegal so I wouldn't recommend it
Sent from my DROID2 using xda premium
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(Caps for emphasis on a word, not yelling)
Hmmm, Now I am left with questionable practices of a service provider. So let me ask a question, an IMEI should not be nerfed unless a customer reports their phone as having been lost or stolen. However, it seems like some service providers are Lying to the reporting agency that they report the phone IMEI to in order to block a persons phone due to not having been able to continue with a service contract.
There are stark differences here. Namely, a promotion would state get this phone for x dollars if you sign up for a two year contract, you pay the x dollars, the phone is now YOUR property, not theirs to do whatever they want to, to it. So that being said, you find you can't continue the service contract. So what should happen now? Simple, you can no longer receive the service plan you contracted to have , BUT....that does not give a service provider a right to nerf your paid for phones' IMEI, as you did not report the phone lost or stolen. It basically should end up that since you can't pay for a certain type of plan anymore then thats the end of it you won't get that particular type of service included in that plan. HOWEVER....that shouldn't mean that if you can pay for a prepaid service, that you CAN'T use that different type of service on your paid for phone.
So now we arrive at illegal? I think not, being that if a service provider falsely reports your IMEI on the blacklist based on you not being able to continue a plan, it does not make the phone reported stolen or lost by YOU, but rather it makes that IMEI reported as lost or stolen by THEM. So now that would be illegal for the service provider to do because from the moment you pay for that phone it is your property to do as you please with since its your property not theirs. So what other recourse would the owner of a phone have if a service provider is illegally reporting your phone on a blacklist that is used for reporting lost or stolen phone by a customer, when the fact remains that YOU did not report it as such?
read the contract
MenderOne said:
(Caps for emphasis on a word, not yelling)
Hmmm, Now I am left with questionable practices of a service provider. So let me ask a question, an IMEI should not be nerfed unless a customer reports their phone as having been lost or stolen. However, it seems like some service providers are Lying to the reporting agency that they report the phone IMEI to in order to block a persons phone due to not having been able to continue with a service contract.
There are stark differences here. Namely, a promotion would state get this phone for x dollars if you sign up for a two year contract, you pay the x dollars, the phone is now YOUR property, not theirs to do whatever they want to, to it. So that being said, you find you can't continue the service contract. So what should happen now? Simple, you can no longer receive the service plan you contracted to have , BUT....that does not give a service provider a right to nerf your paid for phones' IMEI, as you did not report the phone lost or stolen. It basically should end up that since you can't pay for a certain type of plan anymore then thats the end of it you won't get that particular type of service included in that plan. HOWEVER....that shouldn't mean that if you can pay for a prepaid service, that you CAN'T use that different type of service on your paid for phone.
So now we arrive at illegal? I think not, being that if a service provider falsely reports your IMEI on the blacklist based on you not being able to continue a plan, it does not make the phone reported stolen or lost by YOU, but rather it makes that IMEI reported as lost or stolen by THEM. So now that would be illegal for the service provider to do because from the moment you pay for that phone it is your property to do as you please with since its your property not theirs. So what other recourse would the owner of a phone have if a service provider is illegally reporting your phone on a blacklist that is used for reporting lost or stolen phone by a customer, when the fact remains that YOU did not report it as such?
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Hi there, it usually is the case that the network subsides the device for you in exchange for your commitment to use them -you'll pay up the rest of the cost in monthly instalments -hence the contract period. My GS3 was £29 instead of hundreds of pounds, but I had to sign up for two years. My £29 contribution is far from the real cost of the device and I would not expect to get away from being tied in without paying up for the phone and then some. It might be the case your IMEI was blacklisted so the network can get the outstanding amount from insurance once you decided to try and outsmart them.
Cheers.
Technically, that phone is cheap because you agree that you'll pay them a set fee for two years most of the time. Its pretty low to blacklist the IMEI but legally, you're bound to a contract.
Sent from my JellyBeaned Infuse, unofficial cm10
In terms of technology, yes it's very possible and actually very easy to do on most Samsung devices. BUT, it's is illegal in most jurisdictions.
ooldgregg said:
Hi there, it usually is the case that the network subsides the device for you in exchange for your commitment to use them -you'll pay up the rest of the cost in monthly instalments -hence the contract period. My GS3 was £29 instead of hundreds of pounds, but I had to sign up for two years. My £29 contribution is far from the real cost of the device and I would not expect to get away from being tied in without paying up for the phone and then some. It might be the case your IMEI was blacklisted so the network can get the outstanding amount from insurance once you decided to try and outsmart them.
Cheers.
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Click to collapse
I am not trying to outsmart them. I have fallen on financial difficulty,and if they reported MY phone as lost or stolen to get insurance money then that would constitute Insurance fraud on their part. The fact remains that I met my obligation on signing up. We all know when a new model is set to come out they have to dump their stock of phones so that is the main reason they offer the phone at reduced prices. You need a phone that will work with their network otherwise the service is null.
I paid on my contract for one year at the rate of $130.00 per month so they more than covered their costs and then some. Many don't understand the legalese involved in contract. So thats where they get their bulk of duped customers. Because people don't educate themselves with respect to contract language. Basically I can get you to believe that since I sold you a phone in exchange for signing a contract for service, that the fact that you already paid for the phone is diminished in that I got you to believe that just because I offered you the phone at a reduced price, IF you sign a contract for SERVICE, that the phone is TIED to that contract. But nothing is further from the truth. You purchased the phone, AND a contract for service, there is a big difference between the two, one being the purchase of a phone, the other being the purchase of a contract for network usage ON that phone. Think about it.
Product F(RED) said:
In terms of technology, yes it's very possible and actually very easy to do on most Samsung devices. BUT, it's is illegal in most jurisdictions.
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Click to collapse
Thanks F(RED) much appreciated :highfive: Hit me up in email please.
Irrespective, IMEI changing is illegal. End of thread.
Related
Everybody says changing esn is illegal.
1. Does anybody know anybody who got in trouble for changing esn?
2. say i got two devices, if i swap esn's of both of these device. It that illegal ? If yes can anybody point me to the law that states its illegal?
3. I heard some repair centers change esns, are they licensed to do that, do they have any kind of special permit?
thanks
I'm still searching for proof for you at a federal level (I'm 100% sure this is illegal in the USA) but I found something on a state level that shows it.
http://www3.state.id.us/cgi-bin/newidst?sctid=180670013.K
http://info.sen.ca.gov/pub/97-98/bill/asm/ab_1101-1150/ab_1127_bill_19970703_amended_sen.html
http://www.romingerlegal.com/new_jersey/appellate/a4869-96.opn.html
http://www.state.co.us/gov_dir/leg_dir/olls/sl1997/sl.194.htm
So what's that now, Idaho, California, New Jersey and Colorado? I think the point's been proven, it is completely illegal to alter your ESN without the consent of the manufacturer of the device.
i read those, it doesn't look like it is illegal if you paid for phone service, and you swap the esn to another device, as long as you discontinue using the first device. it isn't as if you are adding a second line of service for no money, you're just putting it on a new phone.
ehow has a page describing how to do it, in fact. i just googled esn switching, and there it was, seems fairly simple
Black93300ZX said:
I think the point's been proven, it is completely illegal to alter your ESN without the consent of the manufacturer of the device.
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LOL, only avoiding payment is against the law. some banned people nowadays
Hmm
Sorry to resurrect but was researching this myself recently.
The controlling federal law seems to be: http://law.onecle.com/uscode/18/1029.html
HOWever, I think the law is DEFINITELY worded vaguely and/or NOT aimed at the use the OP might have in mind (having two phones around the house instead of one--just like how people like to have have 2 landline extensions in a single dwelling).
My apologies if this kind of conversation is frowned upon/not allowed. A warning by any senior member/mod and I'll be sure to not pursue this any further on XDA.
Thanks!
Panamaniac
It's a great way to trick phone company's into giving you cheaper internet plans if you switch the esn from a dumb phone to a smart phone.
That being said don't do it its not worth the trouble you could get into
Sent from my HTC Glacier using XDA App
thenotoriouspie said:
It's a great way to trick phone company's into giving you cheaper internet plans if you switch the esn from a dumb phone to a smart phone.
That being said don't do it its not worth the trouble you could get into
Sent from my HTC Glacier using XDA App
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Click to collapse
Not in every case. Like maybe if you want to use the smartphone without paying for data service (because you don't want data service).
See, with GSM carriers, they can see what phone you're using IF it's in their database. And the phone will only be in their database IF and ONLY IF it is branded by them. So if I'm on T-Mobile and I pop my SIM card into an unlocked AT&T phone/totally unbranded straight-from-manufacturer phone, they don't see what phone I'm using. Want proof? Do that and log in to your account online. Normally, the website will tell you what phone you're using. Instead, this time it'll show you a generic icon/question mark. So if you want to use an iPhone on T-Mobile without a data plan, you can do that. If you want to use a Blackberry on AT&T without a data plan? Also not a problem. As long as they don't know you're using a smartphone, a data plan won't automatically be forced onto your account. GSM gives you choice and freedom.
With CDMA carriers, we have to go through great lengths just so that we can use the phone we want, or just so that we can use a phone we already paid for. If I'm on Verizon with a Blackberry Bold and I want to jump on Sprint, why should I have to pay for the same exact phone AGAIN? It's really not hard to reprovision a CDMA phone to work on another carrier. All you need to do is install the right APN and MMS settings and the carrier's PRL. Then just flash the carrier's ROM onto the phone (I'm simplifying it; it varies by phone).
CHANGING, NOT CLONING, ESNs is ok. It's the equivalent of swapping SIM cards. In the US, the only national CDMA carrier that offers less-than-unlimited plans is Verizon. So what if I want to use my Blackberry Bold with a 150MB data plan? Is that really a crime? I can STILL opt for the unlimited, even if I put a dumbphone's ESN on the Blackberry. Why am I forced to have these plan options on my account? Why can we bring our own phones with GSM carriers, but not CDMA carriers? It IS possible for GSM carriers to block phones not sold from their network from getting service. All they would have to do is block the IMEI numbers not from phones they've sold. But they don't do this. Why can't CDMA carriers just activate these phones? MetroPCS does it in some locations, officially (aka MetroFlash). They warn you that only Calls and SMS will work, but that's fixable on your own, AND you're able to use your own phone from any carrier.
CDMA carriers need to start activating off-network phones. It's just not fair, especially when many of the phones are the same on both networks.
Product F(RED) said:
CDMA carriers need to start activating off-network phones. It's just not fair, especially when many of the phones are the same on both networks.
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Wow. It does not work this way over there in US? You can use whatever CDMA device here, you just tell the ESN to the carrier so that it gets activated on their network. You guys are weird there.
Money hungry politicians and corporations.
however I have yet to see a court case setting precedence. Until that day, I will consider ESN repair and or swapping a completely legitimate practice.
Well ESN swaps are one thing--but what I'd really like is to clone onto an old handset simply so I can have TWO IN THE HOUSE--nothing illicit here, it's just a pain in the ass to have to go find the thing, since I don't own a landline. In that connection, people have multiple receivers on landlines for this very purpose--because cell phones work great as cell phones, but not so great as HOUSE phones....
But given the 10-year prison sentence (though I don't think I'd be prosecuted) methinks I'll steer clear of actually trying to clone...
People tend to make the VIN comparison.
Although you CAN (and I have) apply for a new vin in certain circumstances.
It's like wanting to have multiple honda accords with the same vin.
Even if you don't want to defraud an insurance company, you technically could if you wrecked one.
Now, though I agree with you and thing you SHOULD be able to clone your own esn. The FCC is very clear about cloneing.
What they aren't clear about is swapping without cloning.
The bulk of the argument resides around the words "intent to defraud"
willpower102 said:
Money hungry politicians and corporations.
however I have yet to see a court case setting precedence. Until that day, I will consider ESN repair and or swapping a completely legitimate practice.
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http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2008/06/carterfone-40-years.ars
Happy reading.
(If you want the actual decision, then here you are: http://www.uiowa.edu/~cyberlaw/FCCOps/1968/13F2-420.html)
Old? You bet. Applicable? I'd argue it
Product F(RED) said:
Not in every case. Like maybe if you want to use the smartphone without paying for data service (because you don't want data service).
See, with GSM carriers, they can see what phone you're using IF it's in their database. And the phone will only be in their database IF and ONLY IF it is branded by them. So if I'm on T-Mobile and I pop my SIM card into an unlocked AT&T phone/totally unbranded straight-from-manufacturer phone, they don't see what phone I'm using. Want proof? Do that and log in to your account online. Normally, the website will tell you what phone you're using. Instead, this time it'll show you a generic icon/question mark. So if you want to use an iPhone on T-Mobile without a data plan, you can do that. If you want to use a Blackberry on AT&T without a data plan? Also not a problem. As long as they don't know you're using a smartphone, a data plan won't automatically be forced onto your account. GSM gives you choice and freedom.
With CDMA carriers, we have to go through great lengths just so that we can use the phone we want, or just so that we can use a phone we already paid for. If I'm on Verizon with a Blackberry Bold and I want to jump on Sprint, why should I have to pay for the same exact phone AGAIN? It's really not hard to reprovision a CDMA phone to work on another carrier. All you need to do is install the right APN and MMS settings and the carrier's PRL. Then just flash the carrier's ROM onto the phone (I'm simplifying it; it varies by phone).
CHANGING, NOT CLONING, ESNs is ok. It's the equivalent of swapping SIM cards. In the US, the only national CDMA carrier that offers less-than-unlimited plans is Verizon. So what if I want to use my Blackberry Bold with a 150MB data plan? Is that really a crime? I can STILL opt for the unlimited, even if I put a dumbphone's ESN on the Blackberry. Why am I forced to have these plan options on my account? Why can we bring our own phones with GSM carriers, but not CDMA carriers? It IS possible for GSM carriers to block phones not sold from their network from getting service. All they would have to do is block the IMEI numbers not from phones they've sold. But they don't do this. Why can't CDMA carriers just activate these phones? MetroPCS does it in some locations, officially (aka MetroFlash). They warn you that only Calls and SMS will work, but that's fixable on your own, AND you're able to use your own phone from any carrier.
CDMA carriers need to start activating off-network phones. It's just not fair, especially when many of the phones are the same on both networks.
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Click to collapse
Maybe with Verizon but try to do that with sprint and see what happens if you get caught.
Sent from my HTC Glacier using XDA App
Haha, bad news I'm guessing!
It's ok, I just scored a free Airave anyway (which is apparently immediately eligible for a $150 discount on an "upgrade" to a phone?!? Lolz).
SoberGuy said:
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2008/06/carterfone-40-years.ars
Happy reading.
(If you want the actual decision, then here you are: http://www.uiowa.edu/~cyberlaw/FCCOps/1968/13F2-420.html)
Old? You bet. Applicable? I'd argue it
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Thanks! This is not what I was expecting... In fact this gives even more credence to the practice.
If I had enough money, I would try to indite myself just to fight it. But I don't have the sort of money to fight that legal battle.
willpower102 said:
Thanks! This is not what I was expecting... In fact this gives even more credence to the practice.
If I had enough money, I would try to indite myself just to fight it. But I don't have the sort of money to fight that legal battle.
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Click to collapse
I think from that perspective it's a losing battle. Saying "Judge, the big TelCo is doing something illegal, so I had to do something the FCC deems illegal" is not exactly the best idea. Having that same TelCo refuse you service with a different phone, being forced to buy one of theirs, and then suing them to recover the costs....different story all together.
I'm really, really surprised that this hasn't been challenged at all. I came across that Carterfone decision several years ago (most likely by chance) and immediately thought of the CDMA carriers here. But, I rock GSM, so it doesn't matter too much to me
T-Mobile offers phones without data plans
I recently purchased a Samsung Vibrant on craigslist walked into a T-Mobile store bought a sim card, signed up for a month to month plan for $29.00 and have a smart phone with out paying for data or texting. I wish the other carriers were decent enough to allow this. What scares me most about the T-mobile and Att Merger talk is this consumer friendly company may be shut down.
It's interesting because the federal statutes (i.e., passed by Congress) are vague enough for wiggle room, but the FCC regulations don't seem to be. Following the Chevron decision, courts would be very likely to give the FCC reading of the federal statute deference---i.e., you'd likely lose the case and spend 10 years in jail (IF prosecution ever happened, which for the private in-home purposes of cloning I've been discussing is IMHO a big IF).
panamaniac said:
It's interesting because the federal statutes (i.e., passed by Congress) are vague enough for wiggle room, but the FCC regulations don't seem to be. Following the Chevron decision, courts would be very likely to give the FCC reading of the federal statute deference---i.e., you'd likely lose the case and spend 10 years in jail (IF prosecution ever happened, which for the private in-home purposes of cloning I've been discussing is IMHO a big IF).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Chevron implements a two-step analysis. Neither, in this scenario, would allow for deference to the FCC on the SOLE issue of a CDMA carrier refusing to activate a CDMA device not purchased from said carrier. Would deference be given to changing or cloning ESNs? Quite possibly, but if the case even remotely touched on the aforementioned "ban", the court would address that matter in favor of the consumer.
For the last time, we're talking about
SWAPPING
Hi all need your advice.
I've been in contact with Orange for a couple of weeks now and finaly they are alowing me to cancel my contract with them 14 months remaining.
Reason being they are unable to provide me with the service im paying for.
So I'm happy that they are going to cancel my remaining contract but they are telling me that I can not keep my number.
I've had this number for over 10years and been on different providers in that time, Are they within there rights to with hold it from me and if they aren't what do I need to do to keep it
As they are saying I cant have my PUK number to take it with me.
I was under the impression it was my number
Also they want the phone back now this was free with the contract that I took out with carphone warehouse do I have to give it back? If I do then I do its not really a problem but it would of been nice to keep it.
Its just my number I want to keep really.
Most "free" phones are only free if you stay with the company for the duration of the contract. I think a small amount is added to each bill to pay for it. As for not allowing you to keep your number I don't think that should be legal. Try going with a different company and you should get the option to switch and keep the same number, let the companies bicker it out.
Sent from my T-Mobile myTouch 3G Slide using XDA App
If the number is already on another line and there is early termination in the works then you wont be getting it back. A second carrier cannot claim a number in an active contract. You're kinda screwed sadly.
z33dev33l said:
If the number is already on another line and there is early termination in the works then you wont be getting it back. A second carrier cannot claim a number in an active contract. You're kinda screwed sadly.
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Click to collapse
Actually - it is against the law for them NOT to transfer your number. Since they already confirmed you could cancel your contract early, you're all set. If that was not the case, then you would have to pay an early termination fee (or whatever your contractual agreement is). Just make sure you get your current number "ported" to the new carrier before your contract officially ends.
This is directly from about.com:
"Question: Number Portability: Can I Transfer My Cell Phone Number?
Answer: Yes. In the United States, wireless local number portability (WLNP) is a legally mandated service that allows the transfer of a cell phone number from one carrier to another.
History
Number portability for landline phone numbers existed before it did for wireless numbers. In July 2002, the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) set a Nov. 2003 deadline for WLNP to take effect. Verizon Wireless resisted.
The FCC activated WLNP in Nov. 2003 in the top 100 metropolitan statistical areas (MSAs), which are the major cities in the U.S. In May 2004, the FCC made the service live in the rest of the U.S.
The FCC also made it so a landline number can be transferred to a cell phone carrier.
Overcoming Hurdles
Wireless local number portability has come a long way in the U.S. Transferring your cell phone number from one carrier to another used to be more complicated than it is today.
The switch also used to take longer than it does now. While the process of transferring (or porting) a number from one carrier to another initially took weeks, the FCC eventually mandated that the transfer take place within four business days.
Some cell phone carriers (such as Verizon Wireless) used this four-day window to attempt to convince customers not to switch. In response, the FCC in May 2009 changed the number portability requirement to one business day.
How to Initiate a Transfer
As of late 2009, the process has become very fast and painless. When you activate new service with a cell phone carrier, they’ll often ask if you’d like to transfer your existing number from another carrier. Transferring your phone number is free.
If they don’t ask and you do want your previous number ported over, make sure to let your new carrier know before you’re assigned a number there. If you request a phone number transfer, they’re required by law to grant it.
It’s very important not to cancel your current cell phone service until you have successfully transferred the old number to your new carrier. If you cancel at your previous carrier before establishing new service elsewhere, the number you’re trying to save will be lost.
To achieve a valid WLNP transfer, the cell phone carrier you’re switching to must offer local service in the same area as your existing phone number. Some carriers have online tools to immediately check your transfer eligibility (such as this AT&T tool).
Before You Transfer, Check Your Contract
While your previous cell phone carrier isn’t legally allowed to refuse a valid transfer request, you may still be bound to a service contract there.
If that’s the case, you’ll either have to wait until your contract expires or pay an early termination fee. If you’re with a prepaid wireless carrier without a contract or if you’re no longer under contract, you’re in the clear to initiate a transfer. "
is this orange uk? i've just posted something myself asking about getting out of a contract with them as the service is not what i pay for (poor signal, slow and non-existent 3g).
Thanks for the replies there some good info there just not sure how much of it is the same here in the UK but it give me somewhere to start.
Guess ill be going in to a phone shop tomorrow and see what they say
And yes I'm on Orange UK
If any one knows any thing else of use please let me know like I said before I'm not bothered about the phone I kinda figured they would want it back.
As for the number it was originaly issued by vodafone
talk to another carrier about it, sure they can help
Pizzalover83 said:
talk to another carrier about it, sure they can help
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Click to collapse
No they can't.
In the UK, a network cannot transfer a number across without a PAC - Port Authorisation Code.
If the network that currently carries the number refuses to issue the code, there's precisely nothing that any other network can do.
@theOP: if memory serves, the rules about number porting say that a network cannot refuse to issue a PAC if the appropriate fees have been paid but since they are cancelling your contract at a loss to themselves, I think that gives them the right to refuse to issue one.
You could try contacting Ofcom but I'd be surprised if you heard anything back.
Just a quick up date I called Orange retentions yesterday and said I need my PUK number because I'm retuning my phone to them now that I've received the packet to return it.
The guy said yep thats fine ill sort it out now for you I said to him whats the easiest thing to do go but a Orange pay as you go for you to transfer the number to?
He said if I want to do that he will send me a sim in the post and once I rececive it call this number and we can do that for you over the phone
And then put my phone in the post.
So sorted I'm happy I get to keep my number
Ive took 3 years contract with telus, i hope i wont regret it.
Hi,
I am considering buying one of two used Galaxy Notes off craigslist for use with a T-Mobile SIM. One is AT&T and one is an international one.
From some of the research I've done, if buying the ATT one, I should run the IMEI by ATT to make sure it's clean, then make the seller sign a document stating that he's transferring ownership of the phone and IMEI to me to prevent him from reporting it stolen in the future, resulting in the blacklisting my IMEI, right? Also, how do I confirm he's the original owner? Will running the IMEI by ATT tell me that info?
Is it safer to pay more and go with a used international one? In other words do carriers tend to ever blacklist IMEIs of phones not sold by them?
Thanks
Good luck getting some random person from Craigslist to sign that kind of thing (which would have tenuous legal bearing, anyway).
I prefer to buy on eBay so that instead of having to deal with the police / legal system, eBay will handle it if they state something false about what they're selling.
Even if you run the IMEI by ATT, it can take some time for it to have entered their database - and that's assuming the seller already reported it stolen or defaulted on it. Most people trying to do that are smart enough to wait until you have the working phone, then report it - that way your phone works for a while and by the time it doesn't - what... you have a piece of paper they signed ? That's great, but then you have to either get the phone company to believe you or enter a legal dispute with this seller - with a document that's likely not notarized, from a person you probably have no idea where they can even be found - who might have given you a fake name and ID.
Plenty of people take the chance and it turns out okay. Some get burned - taking the chance is up to you. I prefer to go through eBay or a friend - because I know where friends live and generally they're actually friends and don't want to screw me over.
Hi Pennycake,
Thank you for taking the time to reply. The signed document was a suggestion I received from an ATT rep, who said it would show I was the owner and she would unblacklist it for me, and worst case scenario I have something instead of nothing if police are involved. Also both sellers have agreed to sign the documents, but thanks for the good luck
So again, my original questions: how do I identify the original owner of a phone sold by ATT, and secondly, do carriers ever blacklist IMEIs of international phones not sold by them?
Thanks in advance
I'm not sure if ATT and T-Mobile use the same company to manage blacklisting - that it's actually the same list (ie - if you're removed from the ATT list, will you be removed from T-Mobile's list or would they need to do it separately) . So you might have to convince T-Mobile reps - who by and large aren't that well (or at all) trained about the blacklist. I've never dealt with ATT reps, but they sound a whole lot better than the ones at T-Mobile when it comes to the IMEI blacklist (I've had great customer service from T-Mobile, but their training concerning the IMEI blacklist was sub-par, at least when I was on the market a few months ago).
I don't think T-Mobile will personally blacklist international phones. I know that USA carriers are starting to work together more and more - but I don't know about international.
Sent from my SGH-T999 using xda app-developers app
The largest GSM carriers in America, T-Mobile and AT&T, are collaborating on efforts in maintaining a national IMEI blacklist for GSM phones to help stop thefts, and began implementing policy beginning last month. This is why I am extra cautious as I have never been over the purchase of a used GSM phone. Which led me to a new question I would never have thought to ask, which was, again, "Do US carriers blacklist IMEIs of international phones not sold by them?"
So an example is if an ATT customer activated an int'l phone sold by Samsung, not ATT, and defaulted on payments. The relevancy of this, if the IMEI was blacklisted, would be that T-Mobile would not activate the phone. Carriers have had incentive to blacklist phones sold by themselves to protect against their investment in subsidizing the phones, but I am unclear on phones not sold by them. Anyone with little or great information would be very helpful in posting.
Thanks
Edit: I feel I may have been unclear, but this is the question I'm mainly trying to get answered: "Do US carriers blacklist IMEIs of international phones not sold by them?" I'm not seeking advice on how to be unblacklisted if my phone is reported stolen or where I should buy my phones from, I am seeking those with experience buying international phones, such as an unlocked iPhone from an Apple Store, for instance, and have defaulted on payments. These phones would never be blacklisted for being reported stolen as they weren't sold by carriers, but have the potential to be blacklisted for a bad account. If the potential is not there then this would be the path I would choose from here into the future when purchasing used GSM phones. If the potential is there then there would be no added benefit of choosing int'l over carrier-sold used phones. Thanks again and I apologize for any ambiguity
I know that, the problem is that if ATT and T-Mobile aren't using the same IMEI blacklist, they would have to each remove the number individually. They could maintain a national list, but still input those values into separate systems.
I'm not really sure where you're going with the example of, "So an example is if an ATT customer activated an int'l phone sold by Samsung, not ATT, and defaulted on payments. The relevancy of this, if the IMEI was blacklisted, would be that T-Mobile would not activate the phone."
Why would they blacklist that phone ? That phone must have already been paid for, to Samsung. If you buy an international phone outright, there shouldn't be any "payments" to default on - sure, maybe you bought it with a credit card, but in that case it was still fully paid for - and if you stop paying the card, they're going to send you to collections and trash your credit score. The phone is your property even if you stop paying for the service it's connected to. If they ARE doing this, it strikes me a slightly illegal unless you sign away property rights under contract or something.
I'd be more worried about the hypothetical international phone's IMEI being reported stolen - since it looks like the FCC efforts are concerned primarily with theft, not with where the phone was purchased - like if you report a car stolen. Their efforts are motivated by preventing phone theft and related crimes - not on carrier subsidies or carriers making money (because, really, carriers stand to lose money by blocking stolen phones).
"T-Mobile USA prevents use of stolen devices internal to its network, and has established connectivity to the GSMA Global IMEI database that is ready for use by other carriers as recommended in the GSMA-NA Report (entitled “Analysis and Recommendations for Stolen Mobile Device Issue in the United States”), and as set forth in the Industry/FCC Agreement"
So I imagine that in the future, if not already, T-Mobile will have the capacity to block stolen international phones.
So, I agree - there's probably no added benefit since IMEI blacklists are on the path to converge with the focus on theft as the goal, not subsidy.
They are using the same blacklist. When they run the IMEI and it's on the list shared by both companies, they don't activate the phone.
Can anyone else please chime in with knowledge and experience with international phones? Thank you much.
I have 5 months left on my Verizon contract and i am trying to find a way to not pay my $170 etf fee. If I change my phone line to a tablet, then I would only need to pay a monthly fee of $10 and have it mooch of my wife's data for the 5 months. Way cheaper... The only thing is I do not have nor do I want to buy a tablet with Verizon connectivity. So..... What if buy a tablet, activate it to my account then return it . or even better yet... Would you think it would work?
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moates4 said:
I have 5 months left on my Verizon contract and i am trying to find a way to not pay my $170 etf fee. If I change my phone line to a tablet, then I would only need to pay a monthly fee of $10 and have it mooch of my wife's data for the 5 months. Way cheaper... The only thing is I do not have nor do I want to buy a tablet with Verizon connectivity. So..... What if buy a tablet, activate it to my account then return it . or even better yet... Get a imei from a demo at the Verizon store and activate that to my account for the next 5 months. Anyone heard of doing something like this? Would you think it would work?
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you could probably just get your new provider to pay it
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GetRipped said:
you could probably just get your new provider to pay it
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Not in my case. It's not that huge of a deal. Just wanted to see if anything like this has been done.
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A bit of cleanup, FYI we do not allow discussion of IMEI changing etc because it is illegal. Let's stick to legal means of ETF avoidance if we can,
Thanks.
Just activate a dumb phone on the line...it's what I did for mine. Borrowed them from people's junk drawers...lol
I can confirm dumb phone lines work fine...
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Let your new service provider pay your ETF.
x_V.I.P.3.l2_x said:
Let your new service provider pay your ETF.
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This. T-Mobile pays your ETF when you switch to their service.
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If it's an unlimited data plan. Sell it.
Sent from my HTC M8, Verizon style.
orangekid said:
A bit of cleanup, FYI we do not allow discussion of IMEI changing etc because it is illegal. Let's stick to legal means of ETF avoidance if we can,
Thanks.
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Technically imei repair is legal because your repairing it to bring it back to its original carrier. This is legal also because their is no cloning that can be done like with esn's because with imei's its gsm and gsm activates your sim card and not the phone so their is no way to clone anyway as its not like esn's where the esn was linked to the exact phone make and model. Gsm imei numbers are not registered to any particular phone so they can actually be legally changed.
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If you have bad service at your residence many times you can get them to let you out of your contract without an etf. You have to document the problem and report it and verizon will give you a ticket number and will say to give them a week or so to check it out. Then after they confirm it you have to discuss it with them. They will try to offer you a network extender maybe even for free. Your only way out of that is either say you have no home internet to power it or you were going to get rid of it due to finances. As they cannot make you provide broadband internet for their network extender. Then you have to tell them you dont want to pay for a service you cant use you may have to ask for a supervisor. It can be done you just have to not take no for answer, and dont be afraid to say you will talk to the better business bureau as this type of stuff does hurt their reputation. Also you can mention getting all your friends and relatives to switch to at&t or tmobile. Verizon has been starting to feel the pressure from the competition mostly tmobile with price cuts and no contracts, and at&t has been cutting prices also and with their final buy out of alltel and cricket they are gaining ground on verizon so verizon is feeling it in their sales so they probably would give in and let you out. But you have to have bad service at home for this to work. If you already have a network extender for verizon turn it off when you call if they ask it took a dump and you threw it out, and dont accept another one from them say you got rid of your home broadband internet that you cant afford it.
Roefastford said:
Technically imei repair is legal because your repairing it to bring it back to its original carrier. This is legal also because their is no cloning that can be done like with esn's because with imei's its gsm and gsm activates your sim card and not the phone so their is no way to clone anyway as its not like esn's where the esn was linked to the exact phone make and model. Gsm imei numbers are not registered to any particular phone so they can actually be legally changed.
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That is not correct.
an IMEI is tied to the phone just like an ESN does. If I change the SIM card in my tmobile phone, my phone still retain the same IMEI as before.
This was not talking about "repairing" anything, but cloning the IMEI or ESN of another phone/tablet, which is illegal.
Regardless of any of that, discussion of IMEI or ESN changing on this forum is not allowed, period. If you have any more question or concern on that point please PM me, I won't bite (probably).
As to the no service aspect of the ETF avoidance, if you really are getting bad service then you have a legitimate claim, it's up to them to see what they'll do about it.
Doing something illegal to avoid an etf is just stupid. Plus it shouldn't be talked about here.
If your service is truly unusable where you live, the carrier will take care of the etf.
Otherwise, you got the phone at a discount. Pay what you owe instead of trying to weasel your way out by being dishonest.
As for the $10 switch, that works fine. I've done it many times.
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orangekid said:
That is not correct.
an IMEI is tied to the phone just like an ESN does. If I change the SIM card in my tmobile phone, my phone still retain the same IMEI as before.
This was not talking about "repairing" anything, but cloning the IMEI or ESN of another phone/tablet, which is illegal.
Regardless of any of that, discussion of IMEI or ESN changing on this forum is not allowed, period. If you have any more question or concern on that point please PM me, I won't bite (probably).
As to the no service aspect of the ETF avoidance, if you really are getting bad service then you have a legitimate claim, it's up to them to see what they'll do about it.
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No it is not the gsm imei numbers do not. If a gsm imei number is repaired to return to its original carrier the gsm carrier does not know what model of phone it is by the imei number. Such as gsm carriers like at&t & tmobile will activate a sprint imei number on their network because they do not even acknowledge it as being a sprint imei, all they do is make sure the imei number is not blacklisted. If the imei is not blacklisted then they do not care, as they activate your sim card and not your imei number of your phone.
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schwartz.matthew.e said:
Doing something illegal to avoid an etf is just stupid. Plus it shouldn't be talked about here.
If your service is truly unusable where you live, the carrier will take care of the etf.
Otherwise, you got the phone at a discount. Pay what you owe instead of trying to weasel your way out by being dishonest.
As for the $10 switch, that works fine. I've done it many times.
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I only pointed out that bad service is a reason to end a contract, but as I listed bad service is required for that to apply. Many people just accept having bad service thinking they have no options when they actually do because bad service is a legitimate excuse to be let out of a contract without an etf. These cell carriers brag about how they cover 97% of americans when we all know that is a total lie maybe one day someone will sue them and make them stop advertising such lies.
Roefastford said:
No it is not the gsm imei numbers do not. If a gsm imei number is repaired to return to its original carrier the gsm carrier does not know what model of phone it is by the imei number. Such as gsm carriers like at&t & tmobile will activate a sprint imei number on their network because they do not even acknowledge it as being a sprint imei, all they do is make sure the imei number is not blacklisted. If the imei is not blacklisted then they do not care, as they activate your sim card and not your imei number of your phone.
---------- Post added at 03:56 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:50 AM ----------
I only pointed out that bad service is a reason to end a contract, but as I listed bad service is required for that to apply. Many people just accept having bad service thinking they have no options when they actually do because bad service is a legitimate excuse to be let out of a contract without an etf. These cell carriers brag about how they cover 97% of americans when we all know that is a total lie maybe one day someone will sue them and make them stop advertising such lies.
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Indeed. But, they don't say what coverage those people have. They get their statistics more or less very accurately. It just wouldn't be what anyone calls good service. Lol!
ETF
Verizon corporate store managers (the good managers) can suggest scenarios to avoid ETFs. Discuss in-person in the store.
schwartz.matthew.e said:
Indeed. But, they don't say what coverage those people have. They get their statistics more or less very accurately. It just wouldn't be what anyone calls good service. Lol!
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There is no way they actually cover 97% of americans I will tell you why. I live on an Ohio state route highway and I get 1 or 2 max out of 6 bars of signal usually only one and 1x yes 1g data that is total crap. They care more about this xlte crap than even making regular lte everywhere, heck we dont even have 3g data here and you verizon are going to brag about adding xlte coverage. I think verizon needs to rehire the guy that goes around calling saying can you hear me know, because clearly they fired him long ago and no longer care about actually covering populated areas. They should have that guy also say do we have lte now ? Or actually he should say do we have 3g now because I"am only only seeing 1x on my phone, arent we supposed to have finished the lte roll out ? Oh apparently not because if there is only 1x that sure aint lte now is it ?
Roefastford said:
There is no way they actually cover 97% of americans I will tell you why. I live on an Ohio state route highway and I get 1 or 2 max out of 6 bars of signal usually only one and 1x yes 1g data that is total crap. They care more about this xlte crap than even making regular lte everywhere, heck we dont even have 3g data here and you verizon are going to brag about adding xlte coverage. I think verizon needs to rehire the guy that goes around calling saying can you hear me know, because clearly they fired him long ago and no longer care about actually covering populated areas. They should have that guy also say do we have lte now ? Or actually he should say do we have 3g now because I"am only only seeing 1x on my phone, arent we supposed to have finished the lte roll out ? Oh apparently not because if there is only 1x that sure aint lte now is it ?
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Thus what I said about they don't specify what coverage everyone gets lol. I live in Ohio too actually. Overall, Verizon is the best though. I've worked with network engineers that do work for multiple carriers and they'll confirm vz is the best. Overall the best. Emphasis on overall. Lol.
schwartz.matthew.e said:
Thus what I said about they don't specify what coverage everyone gets lol. I live in Ohio too actually. Overall, Verizon is the best though. I've worked with network engineers that do work for multiple carriers and they'll confirm vz is the best. Overall the best. Emphasis on overall. Lol.
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I was only getting 1x data I had them investigate had been 2 weeks they said no plans to fix coverage and they admitted they have limited coverage for me here. They are letting me out of my contract with no etf otherwise I would have had to pay the $350 as I have only had the service a bit over a month, and I dont have to return my m8 either. But they did sell me service for my address which they clearly could not provide, and the crazy thing is I"am a regular length drive way away from an Ohio state route highway, right on the highway, as our address is the highway itself. That is pretty sad no coverage a driveway away from an Ohio state route.
moates4 said:
I have 5 months left on my Verizon contract and i am trying to find a way to not pay my $170 etf fee. If I change my phone line to a tablet, then I would only need to pay a monthly fee of $10 and have it mooch of my wife's data for the 5 months. Way cheaper... The only thing is I do not have nor do I want to buy a tablet with Verizon connectivity. So..... What if buy a tablet, activate it to my account then return it . or even better yet... Would you think it would work?
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Just have them activate a tablet on it...you don't need a tablet just the tablet Sim...or as others said get a dumb phone and swap it on there.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus running Liquid smooth 4.4.3
Roefastford said:
I only pointed out that bad service is a reason to end a contract, but as I listed bad service is required for that to apply. Many people just accept having bad service thinking they have no options when they actually do because bad service is a legitimate excuse to be let out of a contract without an etf. These cell carriers brag about how they cover 97% of americans when we all know that is a total lie maybe one day someone will sue them and make them stop advertising such lies.
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Why is is such a lie? Have you looked at the population distribution in the US? Did you know that you can cover 39% of the population by just installing cell towers in the counties that border the ocean? And that area is only 10% of the land area of the US.
Could somebody point me to an actual law that says it is illegal in the USA and and that it could be, for example, up to 20 years imprisonment or a $5,000 fine, if I changed my IMEI from my broken Verizon device to my unbroken Straighttalk device?
This is a debate that a friend of mine have been going through, and well I can't seem to find the correct answer, not even on here. Everybody is saying it is illegal on XDA, but nobody has actually posted a link to an actual law, just this bill that was submitted into congress, which is not really the answer, it's a bill, where is it shown that it has been already passed along with the penalty?
Here is an example of my isue, just recently bought a phone from Irulu, Chinese phone. It has no IMEI number but when I dial #66# says to write IMEI number. Now everybody is saying it is ilegal to change your IMEI number, but how do you get an IMEI munber if you don't have one? Do I call, for example, T-Mobile and they will give me one? SOme companies even want the serial number along with the IMEI number, well my serial number is something like "0123456789ABCDEF", now how does that fly with a company?
Also, everybody is saying it is illegal to change the IMEI number according to this bill, which is a bill introduced by to congress that, unless somebody point me in the right direction, has not been submitted into a actual law yet.
Also the bill says "This Act may be cited as the `Mobile Device Theft Deterrence Act of 2012". Okay, well my phone is not stolen and if you look closely at this part of the "Bill":
`(1) the term `manufacturer' means a person who has lawfully obtained the right to assign a mobile device identification number to a mobile device before the initial sale of the mobile device;
and then here:
`(d) Exception- Subsection (b) shall not apply to the manufacturer of a mobile device or a person who repairs or refurbishes a mobile device unless the manufacturer or person knows that the mobile device or part involved is stolen.'.
Okay now, I have two verizon phones and two AT&T phones, that I own, that are not stolen, all are broken, then I have a a ZTE merit phone that works just fine, but I do not want to go with straight talk because I live hour away from walmart, which is the only place to purchase minutes, unless you have a credit card, which I do not and I am not going to pay an extra $5 a month for a reloadable card just to put minutes on my phone.
So my question is, according to those two lines, I am refurbishing my phone, it is not stolen and I just want to transfer one IMEI number to another phone so that I can keep using the same service without going through the hassle of ordering another sim card or buying another phone when I have two here that work and four that do not.
I have seen a few closed threads with people getting really upset about this being brought up, pointing to this bill and assuming the person is asking because, if you read that bill, they want to do this with a stolen phone.
Well, as long as you realize that changing the IMEI of a cellphone is "Patriot Act" material (and you are fine with it), I doubt you will find any law (anywhere) where it will clearly state IMEI.
Maybe the 18 U.S. Code § 1028 may apply (do remember the FCC is an authority and that an identification registered by that authority), or the 18 U.S. Code § 1029 if intent can be proven, but then again... if any trouble arises firstly you wont be charged with any of that, you'll get the "Patriot Act" treatment from the get-go.
enapah said:
Well, as long as you realize that changing the IMEI of a cellphone is "Patriot Act" material (and you are fine with it), I doubt you will find any law (anywhere) where it will clearly state IMEI.
Maybe the 18 U.S. Code § 1028 may apply (do remember the FCC is an authority and that an identification registered by that authority), or the 18 U.S. Code § 1029 if intent can be proven, but then again... if any trouble arises firstly you wont be charged with any of that, you'll get the "Patriot Act" treatment from the get-go.
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That is just it, stolen, the term stolen is loosely used in this bill, which as far as I can see, hasn't even been passed.
Schumer Introduces Bill to Make Cell Phone ID Tampering a Crime
By Damon Poeter
May 24, 2013 02:03pm EST
3 Comments
The NY Democrat aims to criminalize tampering with mobile device identification numbers as part of an ongoing effort to crack down on the black market for stolen cell phones.
Like I stated in my question, it is my phone, I paid for the phone, went to Walmart, bought the phone and activated it under my name. Discontinued the service, still have the phone. Bought a cheap AT&T phone, used it for a month, ran out of minutes, never got around to buying more minutes, was just a cheap pay as you go phone for emergency, now the number is gone and AT&T has some annoying thing where you have to buy a new sim card. Now using the AT&T phone to charge the battery from the Verizon phone because the Verizon phone's charger port broke, and the battery works in the Verizon phone but the Verizon battery doesn't work in the AT&T phone.
When the term "stolen" comes up, makes me think it means, somebody stole my cell phone or I stole somebody else's cellphone. Not the case, these are my broken or inactive phones, paid for through a manufacturer, not off the street.
As for the patriot act, well lets just say, if that made sense and the US congress did fully understand it, wouldn't rooting or installing new ROM from one service provider to another service provider's phone be an issue as well?
It just seems pretty lame that people are coming in and saying that you will go to jail, then post a bill that isn't even in law that is so vague, without a reasonable explanation or knowledge about what the bill or law actually is, then just closes the thread.
I'm in the US, not the UK.