I'm just wondering if I can prevent the RC30 update by simply putting a different (active) T-Mobile SIM in the phone. The idea is to keep it at RC28 without any possibility of bricking it right now. (It's my wife's phone...) I'd like to sit tight with RC28 to see if anyone finds a way around RC30 and later updates.
I have three SIMs available to me right now: 1) has full G1 data plan + 400 text messages 2) has only T-Zones (which permits gMail, etc.) and 3) has Unlimited Voice, MMS and SMS, but no data or T-Zones plans. The obvious questions which arise are:
- How does T-Mobile (or Google) find G1s to update? The rumor is that they will NOT update phones that do not have one of the G1 data plans. That would be nice, if true, when it comes to RC30. Is it true?
- Would the SIM with no data plan be the safest to use?
- Would I be safe with the T-Zones SIM? That would permit email when not in WiFi coverage...
I realize the modification to the bootloader is the best way to prevent the update, but I'm just thinking I might be able to safely and easily put myself into a holding pattern by just changing the SIM.
What say you?
Reg
P.S. Nice forum! Thanks for all the hard work and useful information!
Hello from Switzerland.
No that's not correct. I have an unlocked phone, living in Switzerland on the sunrise 3G network and even here I got the update (i denied it of course... but it still asks me every 5 minutes) !!!! So changing SIM card will not help !
PAO1908 said:
Hello from Switzerland.
No that's not correct. I have an unlocked phone, living in Switzerland on the sunrise 3G network and even here I got the update (i denied it of course... but it still asks me every 5 minutes) !!!! So changing SIM card will not help !
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Amazing! I'm surprised! Thanks!
How about the SIM without a data plan? (You said you have a 3G plan.) Since I heard the update is OTA, is it possible that they will not send it through a WiFi link?
RegGuheert said:
Amazing! I'm surprised!
How about the SIM without a data plan? (You said you have a 3G plan.) Since I heard the update is OTA, is it possible that they will not send it through a WiFi link?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't know that. But I think if you don't have a data plan then you will not get it. I heard from androidcommunity people that logged in a wifi hotspot and they got the update.
Call me crazy but is anyone really gonna keep denying it every day all day? Even with their fix I'm sure someone will find a way around it again so might as well update and save yourself the headache in my opinion, this game goes on and on with alot of devices. There are other fixes in update as well including a supposed battery fix.
First thing that I will do now is to change my 29 version so it will not get update anymore (I think a howto is in this forum). And then I hope that the brains in this forum will be able to release a modified 30 version where I can still have root access.
stats555 said:
Call me crazy but is anyone really gonna keep denying it every day all day? Even with their fix I'm sure someone will find a way around it again so might as well update and save yourself the headache in my opinion, this game goes on and on with alot of devices. There are other fixes in update as well including a supposed battery fix.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thing is, it is my phone. It isn't Google's phone.
I bought the hardware, didn't sign any contract prior to purchase, and therefore am not bound by any sort of EULA.
They have no business force upgrading me, what so ever. If they aren't careful, they might get sued. Put another way, asking every 5 minutes is detrimental to the use of the device I bought, and that's just not valid.
Ok.
From all of the posts on this board, it is clear that:
- the update can indeed happen over any method you use to access the internet
- the update does not occur, if the phone has never been activated on t-mobile's network
- the update may occur, if your phone has been activated on t-mobile's network
For example, my phone won't update, and I've tried. This is because I bought it without activation, and the seller did not activate it. It was a non-contract, $399 buy at a t-mobile store.
However, others that have received the update (over wi-fi, for example) have phones that were activated on the t-mobile network prior to being sold, or are phones sold to specific accounts.
At least, that is what all of the data points to.
This being the case, it seems that t-mobile keeps a list of customer activate phones, and those are the ones being hit...
BRad Barnett said:
Ok.
From all of the posts on this board, it is clear that:
- the update can indeed happen over any method you use to access the internet
- the update does not occur, if the phone has never been activated on t-mobile's network
- the update may occur, if your phone has been activated on t-mobile's network
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
From what has been told the update occurs on all G1's that are TC4... It has nothing to do with T-Mobile but more what Google is doing. Remember this is not a T-Mobile phone it is a Google phone... Google runs the show on the software.
neoobs said:
From what has been told the update occurs on all G1's that are TC4... It has nothing to do with T-Mobile but more what Google is doing. Remember this is not a T-Mobile phone it is a Google phone... Google runs the show on the software.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It doesn't occur on all G1s that are TC4. It did not occur on mine, for example. An unlocked phone that has never been activated on t-mobile. It was sold without a plan, and the person paid cash for it.
So, t-mobile does not have a record of the imei or what not, being active, anywhere. Further, others have indicated that groups of imeis are being targeted at certain times, so that the update servers will not be overwhelmed.
Again, proof of this is me being stuck on the original firmware for two weeks. I wasn't even able to manually update using the method with anycut. I had to use the simcard method today, to go to R30.
So, again.. there may be another reason why unlocked, unregistered, unknown phones to t-mobile don't get updated, but I'm betting on the lack of activation.
Note, I might add that this makes sense from a *legal* perspective too. Google or t-mobile have absolutely *no* business updating a phone they do not own. They don't own the OS, they don't own the phone. (copyright is not ownership). When you are a t-mobile customer, you accept an TOS, as well as signing a doc generally that grants such rights.
However, I am not, nor have ever been a t-mobile customer. In my country, my rights don't just evaporate because I click on a little button on the screen of a new piece of hardware I bought.
So, legally, it's the right thing, especially considering Google / t-mobile have presence in many countries.
BRad Barnett said:
It doesn't occur on all G1s that are TC4. It did not occur on mine, for example. An unlocked phone that has never been activated on t-mobile. It was sold without a plan, and the person paid cash for it.
So, t-mobile does not have a record of the imei or what not, being active, anywhere. Further, others have indicated that groups of imeis are being targeted at certain times, so that the update servers will not be overwhelmed.
Again, proof of this is me being stuck on the original firmware for two weeks. I wasn't even able to manually update using the method with anycut. I had to use the simcard method today, to go to R30.
So, again.. there may be another reason why unlocked, unregistered, unknown phones to t-mobile don't get updated, but I'm betting on the lack of activation.
Note, I might add that this makes sense from a *legal* perspective too. Google or t-mobile have absolutely *no* business updating a phone they do not own. They don't own the OS, they don't own the phone. (copyright is not ownership). When you are a t-mobile customer, you accept an TOS, as well as signing a doc generally that grants such rights.
However, I am not, nor have ever been a t-mobile customer. In my country, my rights don't just evaporate because I click on a little button on the screen of a new piece of hardware I bought.
So, legally, it's the right thing, especially considering Google / t-mobile have presence in many countries.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
There are plenty of T-Mobile customers who are on the T-Mobile network like myself who have yet to receive the update.
Your theories are a little shady... your telling me that when they sell a phone the IMEI isn't recorded? Then why do they scan the side of the box with the IMEI number? Trust me T-Mobile knows you have that phone... and your network knows it is a T-Mobile phone, that is the entire point of having IMEI numbers. It is the same with MAC addresses on a computer. You know who made the modem, who it was sold to, and what companies install it in their prebuilt systems.
On top of this you do sign a TOS when buying a phone even if it is not with a contract. And I am sure just because you are in a different country that you have to abide by the TOS... Think about it... if you buy it here and export it to your country you either follow the TOS or can be sued for unlawfully exporting from the original country or unlawfully importing to the destination country. It is different if you are visiting but if you leave there then you have just broken FTC laws for the US and International Trade laws for many other countries especially those in the UN.
neoobs said:
There are plenty of T-Mobile customers who are on the T-Mobile network like myself who have yet to receive the update.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Really? The RC19 update??
Regardless, using the anykey method one is able to force an update, and I could not.
Your theories are a little shady... your telling me that when they sell a phone the IMEI isn't recorded? Then why do they scan the side of the box with the IMEI number? Trust me T-Mobile knows you have that phone... and your network knows it is a T-Mobile phone, that is the entire point of having IMEI numbers. It is the same with MAC addresses on a computer. You know who made the modem, who it was sold to, and what companies install it in their prebuilt systems.
On top of this you do sign a TOS when buying a phone even if it is not with a contract.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You do? You don't here, I've never heard of such a thing. Why would you sign a ToS, when you aren't taking any service??
A generic contract, perhaps, but I'd never be idiotic enough to sign a contract when buying a watch, or a radio, or a CB, or anything of the sort.. why would I do so for a cell phone?
I certainly don't have to here, and in Japan you can buy cell phones out of vending machines! I know that in some places in the US, you can buy $100 pre-paid phones off the shelf, and just pay for them at the checkout counter like a bag of potato chips.
And I am sure just because you are in a different country that you have to abide by the TOS... Think about it... if you buy it here and export it to your country you either follow the TOS or can be sued for unlawfully exporting from the original country or unlawfully importing to the destination country. It is different if you are visiting but if you leave there then you have just broken FTC laws for the US and International Trade laws for many other countries especially those in the UN.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Uh. I didn't sign any TOS, and therefore I am not bound by it. I am not bound by *any* document you sign to buy object A, if you then turn and sell me object A. Never. Never, ever, ever.
Further, a 'terms of service' is only contract used to stipulate by what terms the company will provide you service under. I do not have t-mobile service, and would not even be bound by a TOS, if I was not a t-mobile customer.
As for suing because someone they don't follow a TOS they didn't sign? Absurd! FCC laws have absolutely nothing to do with a TOS. Nothing. Zilch. You are domestically bound by such laws in your own country, regardless of signing anything.
I have no idea what you are talking about with respect of leaving here and leaving there, you are not exporting something that you are going to keep on your person for a vacation. As for the strange comment that the UN has laws, it isn't a country, does not have such a framework, and all UN 'resolutions' are enacted/ratified in countries individually, to make them legal in that jurdistion.
I might note, thank god for that small fact as well.
BRad Barnett said:
Really? The RC19 update??
Regardless, using the anykey method one is able to force an update, and I could not.
You do? You don't here, I've never heard of such a thing. Why would you sign a ToS, when you aren't taking any service??
A generic contract, perhaps, but I'd never be idiotic enough to sign a contract when buying a watch, or a radio, or a CB, or anything of the sort.. why would I do so for a cell phone?
I certainly don't have to here, and in Japan you can buy cell phones out of vending machines! I know that in some places in the US, you can buy $100 pre-paid phones off the shelf, and just pay for them at the checkout counter like a bag of potato chips.
Uh. I didn't sign any TOS, and therefore I am not bound by it. I am not bound by *any* document you sign to buy object A, if you then turn and sell me object A. Never. Never, ever, ever.
Further, a 'terms of service' is only contract used to stipulate by what terms the company will provide you service under. I do not have t-mobile service, and would not even be bound by a TOS, if I was not a t-mobile customer.
As for suing because someone they don't follow a TOS they didn't sign? Absurd! FCC laws have absolutely nothing to do with a TOS. Nothing. Zilch. You are domestically bound by such laws in your own country, regardless of signing anything.
I have no idea what you are talking about with respect of leaving here and leaving there, you are not exporting something that you are going to keep on your person for a vacation. As for the strange comment that the UN has laws, it isn't a country, does not have such a framework, and all UN 'resolutions' are enacted/ratified in countries individually, to make them legal in that jurdistion.
I might note, thank god for that small fact as well.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You don't have to sign anything to still be held under a TOS... Terms of Service means if you use it you abide by the rules. As you mention when buying a CB radio you have to abide by the TOS, which usually states abiding by FCC laws and of course not using it for criminal or illegal purposes. I think you are confusing a TOS with a contract. TOS's are not always signed... in fact just by going to t-mobile.com and browsing around you must abide by their TOS.
I never said anything about the FCC... I said the FTC, the guys in charge of imports and exports for the US. I made my statements plainly clear as I have dealt with them before first and second hand. Anything bought while in another country and returned to your home country is an export from where ever you bought it. And it then becomes an import to your home country or where ever you "sell" it. I never stated the UN as being a country. Stop putting words into my mouth and read what I say carefully. The UN has many laws and they do have laws about specific trade embargo's, yes an individual country can choose to not obey the laws... but the US does obey them, so in this instance the UN would have the jurisdiction to prosecute you in the US or your home country.
Either way this is far off topic and if you really want to discuss it you can PM me and I will be happy to give you a canned response over and over and over again.
neoobs said:
You don't have to sign anything to still be held under a TOS... Terms of Service means if you use it you abide by the rules.
No, TOS means if you use it with those providing a *service*, you abide by the rules. You do not *have* to abide by the rules, unless you signed something, and the only recourse the person providing that service has, is to decline further service.
(this is outside of, of course, acts of vandalism, etc, any law being broken)
As you mention when buying a CB radio you have to abide by the TOS,
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No, you do not have to abide by any terms of service to use a CB. In my country, you need to keep transmission strength under a certain level, and abide by certain other *regulations*, but these are regulations enforced by the CRTC (same as your FCC), under a mandate provided by Federal law.
That is vastly different than a 'terms of service'.
which usually states abiding by FCC laws and of course not using it for criminal or illegal purposes. I think you are confusing a TOS with a contract. TOS's are not always signed... in fact just by going to t-mobile.com and browsing around you must abide by their TOS.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No, I do not have to abide by their TOS. A TOS does not need to be signed, precisely because it is not binding. All that t-mobile can do, is deny you the service (access to their webpage), if they feel you have breached their TOS. Further, webpage TOSes are a grey area, and not effectively backed by any court decisions. This is because a TOS is generally provided when a service is given to someone.
A webpage, such as t-mobile.com, is more of an advertisement. Statements of copyright and such aren't TOS statements either, they're infact useless blather.
I never said anything about the FCC... I said the FTC, the guys in charge of imports and exports for the US.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sorry, mistake on my part.
I made my statements plainly clear as I have dealt with them before first and second hand. Anything bought while in another country and returned to your home country is an export from where ever you bought it. And it then becomes an import to your home country or where ever you "sell" it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes, however you started wrapping TOS up with various laws, that have nothing to do with t-mobile, or a TOS.
I never stated the UN as being a country. Stop putting words into my mouth and read what I say carefully. The UN has many laws and they do have laws about specific trade embargo's,
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The UN does not have any laws. None. They pass resolutions, work collectively with national Representatives to forge treaties, and such works must be ratified in local jurisdictions in order to have any legal standing. The UN is merely a facilitator, an arm of the collective.
yes an individual country can choose to not obey the laws... but the US does obey them, so in this instance the UN would have the jurisdiction to prosecute you in the US or your home country.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ok, this is beyond ridiciously. The US obeys international law?! You surely must be joking. Do you want me to list the international laws that most other civilization nations respect, but the US does not?
Outside of this, the _only_ way I can be charged with anything, at home, is if my home country has pass legistlation respecting that international treaty. The laws of the US, or non-ratified international treaties, are not relevant.
Further, you seem to think that I am somehow bound by a t-mobile TOS, otherwise the UN will come after me? This is actually what you have said, and it is beyond absurd! Regardless, there is no Canadian law that states that an object purchased from party A, automatically cases me to be forced into a TOS with party B.
Either way this is far off topic and if you really want to discuss it you can PM me and I will be happy to give you a canned response over and over and over again.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Heh, you're the one that started getting all strange, with international trade law, strange statements about how I'm in violation of trade law for simply not agreeing to a t-mobile TOS, and so on.
My points were topical, as they are discussing the legal implications of this update proceedure, when one has no legal right to force it upon you.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Didn't I say we were off topic? Send the rest in a PM and I will give you a canned response.
neoobs said:
Just don't whine and moan when google updates your phone and you are SOL.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Now what are you on about?! SOL? Are you suggesting that Google is now going to purposefully brick my phone?
After all, if you had read my previous posts, you would have seen that I have already updated from RC19, I had to manually. That's what we were initially discussing, after all.
Frankly, I think you've missed the point.
However, lastly, I really don't understand your attitude. First, it is not up to you to specify whether I 'whine and moan' about anything. I'll do what I damned well please, regardless of your opinion on the matter. Second, 'whining and moaning', or legal action against Google, as I was suggesting, is very important when just. Our legal system has many checks and bounds, but they are not useful if those breaching them are not taken to task.
Frankly, if you have any sort of open source bent, you should be irate about the concept of forced updates.
RegGuheert said:
The rumor is that they will NOT update phones that do not have one of the G1 data plans.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I have a sim card withoud G1 data plan. It started to ask about RC30 update yesterday anyway. So, you got your update no matter who you are or where you are...
What I did today - I just removed the signed-RC30-bla-bla.zip file from the /cache/ folder and it stopped asking me. Not sure how I can get this update now, actually
Dimath said:
I have a sim card withoud G1 data plan. It started to ask about RC30 update yesterday anyway. So, you got your update no matter who you are or where you are...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Did you buy it from t-mobile, as a t-mobile customer? Did you buy it from someone that activated it as a t-mobile customer?
What I did today - I just removed the signed-RC30-bla-bla.zip file from the /cache/ folder and it stopped asking me. Not sure how I can get this update now, actually
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You can download it and install it using the SD card method. You can also install anycut, and install it by forcing an update via that method as well.
BRad Barnett said:
Did you buy it from t-mobile, as a t-mobile customer? Did you buy it from someone that activated it as a t-mobile customer?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes, just preorder it from T-mobile. Wait, I didn't say I am not a T-mobile customer. I just have no G1 data plan, but my carrier is T-mobile USA.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=128772296
"Another exemption will allow owners of used cell phones to break access controls on their phones in order to switch wireless carriers."
Apple's restrictive obsession finally bit them in the a$$...
This is fine and dandy indeed, but do you really think the wireless service providers aren't going to throw heaps of lobbyist money to thwart this effort?
All phones in the USA should come sim unlocked prior to buying the phone. Carriers should worry and concentrate on their data supplied and packages.
Not worry about "locking" down cells lure buyers to their company because they sim locked the phone to their network.
USA needs too learn a few more things from Europe.
Yes but what about the case of Verizon phones where they don't use SIM cards? would they be required to switch to an "unlockable" phone setup? I'm thinking no, in which case what you may see in the case of other carriers is that their special phones (like iphone) are going to be locked down in the same manner as Verizon, i.e. SIM cardless
monty_boy said:
This is fine and dandy indeed, but do you really think the wireless service providers aren't going to throw heaps of lobbyist money to thwart this effort?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's apparently a done deal.
The DOJ has also launched a probe into the legality of the Apple/ATT deal... Something like 90% of their cases always win. So in other words, when the DOJ launches an investigation against you, you're screwed (they basically have the case built, just not officially).
Like I said earlier, Apple shot themselves in the foot with this one.
the problem si that there still lowed to put these restrictions on in the first place. there should be an option in a menu somewhere that says hey do you want to only user the appstore or would you like to be able to sideload apps. from those ive spoken to over 90% of people don't understand what a root or jailbreak is.
Hepæstus said:
Yes but what about the case of Verizon phones where they don't use SIM cards? would they be required to switch to an "unlockable" phone setup? I'm thinking no, in which case what you may see in the case of other carriers is that their special phones (like iphone) are going to be locked down in the same manner as Verizon, i.e. SIM cardless
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Verizon and have been switching their phones over to sim compatible
is there a reason why the MOST IMPORTANT site isnt linked...
https://www.eff.org/press/archives/2010/07/26
GG KK THX BYE!
But... Warranty? will be void still? I don't see nothing about this.
Ummm... Maybe the NPR article took this out of context.
On EFF's request, the Librarian of Congress renewed a 2006 rule exempting cell phone unlocking so handsets can be used with other telecommunications carriers. Cell phone unlockers have been successfully sued under the DMCA, even though there is no copyright infringement involved in the unlocking. Digital locks on cell phones make it harder to resell, reuse, or recycle the handset, prompting EFF to ask for renewal of this rule on behalf of our clients, The Wireless Alliance, ReCellular and Flipswap. However, the 2009 rule has been modified so that it only applies to used mobile phones, not new ones.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This seems to mean that the carrier can still lock them, they just can't refuse to unlock them after purchase (IE, after becoming "used").
newalopez said:
But... Warranty? will be void still? I don't see nothing about this.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is all about copyright... In other words, you bought the device you can do what the hell you want with it and Apple can't sue you.
This doesn't mean the App Store is going away or anything else, it basically just establishes into law that Apple can't hold someone at fault for using a device the way they want to use it.
If you do things to the device that aren't supported, you're still SOL. If you pour anti-freeze into your oil of your vehicle, for instance, Toyota or whomever isn't going to support it if you don't follow their manual.
So yes, they still have every right to void your warranty. However as usual, flashing back to stock firmware will net you warranty terms again obviously.
Hhmmm...
How will this ever be enforced? Will the carriers do in store unlocks for "used" phones? Can me and a friend buy phones, sell it to each other for $1 and get them unlocked on the spot!?
...this is gonna be CHAOS! lol
Gootah said:
How will this ever be enforced? Will the carriers do in store unlocks for "used" phones? Can me and a friend buy phones, sell it to each other for $1 and get them unlocked on the spot!?
...this is gonna be CHAOS! lol
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No it won't be chaos... It really doesn't change much. Instead of doing it after 180 days they're required to as soon as it's "used" (I guess as soon as you buy it??). It also establishes more of a no-questions-asked policy versus having to tell them you travel internationally or something.
The main gist of this thing was aimed at Apple, this just happened to be a side affect.
Well at least here in my country (Portugal), new law was approved this month, now carriers must unlock all phones for free at the end of the contracts.
In my opinion there are two sides to it :
1) If the Service Provider (Sprint, AT&T etc.) gives a subsidy or discount as part of the contract, they should be allowed to network lock the phones since the consumer has not paid the full price of the phone and not fulfilled the contract. However, with the completion of the contract, the service provider should unlock the phone for free.(I am only talking abt the network lock here)
2) If the consumer has paid the full amount, then the phones should come unlocked.
As far as 'Jailbreaking' or installing softwares is concerned, the consumer should have the right to do so in any of the above 2 cases since he is the owner/user of the phone. The Manufacturer or Service provider has NO right to lock that portion. However, they should have the right to void warranty as there is a chance that the user may install potetially harmfull sofware on the phone thereby damaging it.
However, if the law comes that people are able to network unlock their phones legally, there is a chance that the service providers might stop subsidising the phones and ask for upfront payment.
Mikey1022 said:
All phones in the USA should come sim unlocked prior to buying the phone. Carriers should worry and concentrate on their data supplied and packages.
Not worry about "locking" down cells lure buyers to their company because they sim locked the phone to their network.
USA needs too learn a few more things from Europe.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i highly agree with you! they should work on providing better network, and data coverage i.e. ATT. they do have a fairly big clientele but is there service worth me moving from tmous. i dont think so. my x girl has att and she can barely get coverage in her house and we live in a city you would think got excellent coverage. SAN FRANCISCO!
Hepæstus said:
Yes but what about the case of Verizon phones where they don't use SIM cards? would they be required to switch to an "unlockable" phone setup? I'm thinking no, in which case what you may see in the case of other carriers is that their special phones (like iphone) are going to be locked down in the same manner as Verizon, i.e. SIM cardless
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
i think they should just phase out with the CDMA phones little by little and start intro'ing with the GSM'. same goes for sprint
Truth be told, CDMA is a superior technology but that's a debate for a different thread.
As far as Sprint and Verizon are concerned, their phones are just as "unlockable" as GSM handsets. MVNO carriers like Revol wireless and Page Plus live off of old beat up verizon and sprint phones. They simply need to be reflashed. With a little google-ing, it can be done fairly easily.
say goodbye to phone subsidies
Great deal. Now it would be a better deal if carriers stop installing crap and bloat that you can't remove or not giving root access to the phone owner which is silly imo, lets see how many are willing to buy a computer without admin rights.
I know cloning and changing ESN or IMEI numbers on stolen phones is ilegal, but what if I buy a sprint phone and a verizon phone, then I change the ESNs between the two and keep using the verizon phone on sprint and sell the sprint phone as a "verison" phone, would changing the esn that way be legal? if so could you pm me with a way to do so.
i think it's not very legal...
annoyingly enough, its probably illegal. Which is unfortunate for me, because i'd love to allow my gf to activate my old alltel blackberry phone on verizon (merger put me with att)
I see the words think and probably which gives me hope, where could I look for these laws? do they change from state to state?
jorge89 said:
I know cloning and changing ESN or IMEI numbers on stolen phones is ilegal, but what if I buy a sprint phone and a verizon phone, then I change the ESNs between the two and keep using the verizon phone on sprint and sell the sprint phone as a "verison" phone, would changing the esn that way be legal? if so could you pm me with a way to do so.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
A few threads from other websites for you to read.
http://cellphone-gurus.com
http://forum.ppcgeeks.com
In may 2002 the FCC retraced its statement on ESN cloning or cellular fraud (section 22.919) because public law number 105-172, the communications act also had section 301 removed because of this law. Both removed sections were considered no longer needed and redundant because of this public law.
According to this law it is a federal crime to "knowingly uses, produces, traffics in, has control or custody of, or possesses hardware or software, knowing it has been configured to insert or modify telecommunication identifying information associated with or contained in a telecommunications instrument so that such instrument may be used to obtain telecommunications service without authorization." This is a broad enough description to pertain to any service a telecommunication companies offers, as well as any hardware or software you used to achieve this is considered illegal and in breach of this law. An example of other services are, internet services like an air card and voice mail, but not limited to these examples.
Without authorization, means any device the carrier did not directly and knowingly assign to your account. Even if you have a valid account and are a paying customer, cloning a device to that account is unauthorized, because the device being authenticated and authorized on the network is the donor device not the device you cloned. An example of this but not limited to this example is cloning a Motorola flip phone to a Samsung Epic smart phone, The Samsung epic would authenticate as a Motorola flip phone, not a Samsung Epic Smart phone. The carrier did not explicitly authorize this smart phone device, and it is accessing the network in an unauthorized and illegal manner.
If a user was unlucky enough to be found breaching this law and proven guilty of the offense, the punishments are; “A first offense is now punishable by 15 years in prison, and a second or subsequent offense carries a possible 20 year sentence. Besides additional fines and penalties, the Act also authorizes the government to seize any and all personal property used or intended to be used in the crime. “
http://www.howardforums.com
anything of this nature is prohibited by law. any alteration of a cell phones ESN is illegal.. pretty much in any manner you do it.
But in all honesty, changing the ESN is illegal no matter how you try to justify it.
ESN is like fingerpirnts on the phone. You can't change it unless you're running from the laws.
Simple answer: It is illegal for you as a customer/purchaser/consumer to clone/change/swap/etc ESNs/IMEIs.
I'm not trying to run away from any laws or break them, all I really want is to be able to use Virgin mobile with a decent Android phone the a Nexus S or maybe wait for the Nexus 3 to come out to Sprint, but I guess that won't be possible now
jorge89 said:
I'm not trying to run away from any laws or break them, all I really want is to be able to use Virgin mobile with a decent Android phone the a Nexus S or maybe wait for the Nexus 3 to come out to Sprint, but I guess that won't be possible now
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Call Virgin Mobile and ask them to add the ESN to their database.
Hi,
I am considering buying one of two used Galaxy Notes off craigslist for use with a T-Mobile SIM. One is AT&T and one is an international one.
From some of the research I've done, if buying the ATT one, I should run the IMEI by ATT to make sure it's clean, then make the seller sign a document stating that he's transferring ownership of the phone and IMEI to me to prevent him from reporting it stolen in the future, resulting in the blacklisting my IMEI, right? Also, how do I confirm he's the original owner? Will running the IMEI by ATT tell me that info?
Is it safer to pay more and go with a used international one? In other words do carriers tend to ever blacklist IMEIs of phones not sold by them?
Thanks
Good luck getting some random person from Craigslist to sign that kind of thing (which would have tenuous legal bearing, anyway).
I prefer to buy on eBay so that instead of having to deal with the police / legal system, eBay will handle it if they state something false about what they're selling.
Even if you run the IMEI by ATT, it can take some time for it to have entered their database - and that's assuming the seller already reported it stolen or defaulted on it. Most people trying to do that are smart enough to wait until you have the working phone, then report it - that way your phone works for a while and by the time it doesn't - what... you have a piece of paper they signed ? That's great, but then you have to either get the phone company to believe you or enter a legal dispute with this seller - with a document that's likely not notarized, from a person you probably have no idea where they can even be found - who might have given you a fake name and ID.
Plenty of people take the chance and it turns out okay. Some get burned - taking the chance is up to you. I prefer to go through eBay or a friend - because I know where friends live and generally they're actually friends and don't want to screw me over.
Hi Pennycake,
Thank you for taking the time to reply. The signed document was a suggestion I received from an ATT rep, who said it would show I was the owner and she would unblacklist it for me, and worst case scenario I have something instead of nothing if police are involved. Also both sellers have agreed to sign the documents, but thanks for the good luck
So again, my original questions: how do I identify the original owner of a phone sold by ATT, and secondly, do carriers ever blacklist IMEIs of international phones not sold by them?
Thanks in advance
I'm not sure if ATT and T-Mobile use the same company to manage blacklisting - that it's actually the same list (ie - if you're removed from the ATT list, will you be removed from T-Mobile's list or would they need to do it separately) . So you might have to convince T-Mobile reps - who by and large aren't that well (or at all) trained about the blacklist. I've never dealt with ATT reps, but they sound a whole lot better than the ones at T-Mobile when it comes to the IMEI blacklist (I've had great customer service from T-Mobile, but their training concerning the IMEI blacklist was sub-par, at least when I was on the market a few months ago).
I don't think T-Mobile will personally blacklist international phones. I know that USA carriers are starting to work together more and more - but I don't know about international.
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The largest GSM carriers in America, T-Mobile and AT&T, are collaborating on efforts in maintaining a national IMEI blacklist for GSM phones to help stop thefts, and began implementing policy beginning last month. This is why I am extra cautious as I have never been over the purchase of a used GSM phone. Which led me to a new question I would never have thought to ask, which was, again, "Do US carriers blacklist IMEIs of international phones not sold by them?"
So an example is if an ATT customer activated an int'l phone sold by Samsung, not ATT, and defaulted on payments. The relevancy of this, if the IMEI was blacklisted, would be that T-Mobile would not activate the phone. Carriers have had incentive to blacklist phones sold by themselves to protect against their investment in subsidizing the phones, but I am unclear on phones not sold by them. Anyone with little or great information would be very helpful in posting.
Thanks
Edit: I feel I may have been unclear, but this is the question I'm mainly trying to get answered: "Do US carriers blacklist IMEIs of international phones not sold by them?" I'm not seeking advice on how to be unblacklisted if my phone is reported stolen or where I should buy my phones from, I am seeking those with experience buying international phones, such as an unlocked iPhone from an Apple Store, for instance, and have defaulted on payments. These phones would never be blacklisted for being reported stolen as they weren't sold by carriers, but have the potential to be blacklisted for a bad account. If the potential is not there then this would be the path I would choose from here into the future when purchasing used GSM phones. If the potential is there then there would be no added benefit of choosing int'l over carrier-sold used phones. Thanks again and I apologize for any ambiguity
I know that, the problem is that if ATT and T-Mobile aren't using the same IMEI blacklist, they would have to each remove the number individually. They could maintain a national list, but still input those values into separate systems.
I'm not really sure where you're going with the example of, "So an example is if an ATT customer activated an int'l phone sold by Samsung, not ATT, and defaulted on payments. The relevancy of this, if the IMEI was blacklisted, would be that T-Mobile would not activate the phone."
Why would they blacklist that phone ? That phone must have already been paid for, to Samsung. If you buy an international phone outright, there shouldn't be any "payments" to default on - sure, maybe you bought it with a credit card, but in that case it was still fully paid for - and if you stop paying the card, they're going to send you to collections and trash your credit score. The phone is your property even if you stop paying for the service it's connected to. If they ARE doing this, it strikes me a slightly illegal unless you sign away property rights under contract or something.
I'd be more worried about the hypothetical international phone's IMEI being reported stolen - since it looks like the FCC efforts are concerned primarily with theft, not with where the phone was purchased - like if you report a car stolen. Their efforts are motivated by preventing phone theft and related crimes - not on carrier subsidies or carriers making money (because, really, carriers stand to lose money by blocking stolen phones).
"T-Mobile USA prevents use of stolen devices internal to its network, and has established connectivity to the GSMA Global IMEI database that is ready for use by other carriers as recommended in the GSMA-NA Report (entitled “Analysis and Recommendations for Stolen Mobile Device Issue in the United States”), and as set forth in the Industry/FCC Agreement"
So I imagine that in the future, if not already, T-Mobile will have the capacity to block stolen international phones.
So, I agree - there's probably no added benefit since IMEI blacklists are on the path to converge with the focus on theft as the goal, not subsidy.
They are using the same blacklist. When they run the IMEI and it's on the list shared by both companies, they don't activate the phone.
Can anyone else please chime in with knowledge and experience with international phones? Thank you much.