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Future of the Thunderbolt...

So... I'm winding down from my day, drinking a couple beers and checking XDA for anything I've missed throughout the day. Keep in mind this is my first Android, coming from crapberry... I know it hasn't been out long and there are issues with ril(which I don't know anything about)... I feel like some of the things I have found here I really like have slowed down, if not stopped. Before I get flamed, I understand there is a tremendous amount of work that goes into every Rom and theme we see. I just hope to see that at some point, this phone gets to the point we all hope it will. I'm trying to learn as much as I can and help anyone with questions my limited Android knowledge can accomplish. Feel free to use this thread to vent and rant... Let's get it all out here. Many thanks to the devs still holding strong... I'm just looking for thoughts on how far the development will go with this phoned compared to the EVO's I'm compared to everyday at work.

3 things to keep in mind:
1) CM7 is damn near stable and they're working hard on it. That said, [nearly] everybody who isn't working on CM7 is essentially waiting on the CM7 team to finish since [nearly] everybody wants an AOSP-based ROM. So why would they keep pouring tons of time into their current ROMs since they'll very soon be thrown away?
2) Google I/O. Quite a few of our favorite devs are being distracted by either attending or closely following this event.
3) End of the school year. A lot of our favorite devs are either high school or college students. And many of those who aren't have children. As such, this is a rough time of year for them.
Look at all of this and you shouldn't be all that surprised that things have slowed down for a bit. But I promise you, the TBolt will be one of the main platforms that people will be hacking for a while. We'll have CM7, we'll have MIUI, and we'll have many other custom ROMs and kernels. Just be patient while they get the RIL stable. This is the FIRST phone that has supported LTE and this is also the first phone (that I'm aware of) that has supported eHRPD - there are definitely some lessons that need to be learned, and that takes time.

bking_soda said:
So... I'm winding down from my day, drinking a couple beers and checking XDA for anything I've missed throughout the day. Keep in mind this is my first Android, coming from crapberry... I know it hasn't been out long and there are issues with ril(which I don't know anything about)... I feel like some of the things I have found here I really like have slowed down, if not stopped. Before I get flamed, I understand there is a tremendous amount of work that goes into every Rom and theme we see. I just hope to see that at some point, this phone gets to the point we all hope it will. I'm trying to learn as much as I can and help anyone with questions my limited Android knowledge can accomplish. Feel free to use this thread to vent and rant... Let's get it all out here. Many thanks to the devs still holding strong... I'm just looking for thoughts on how far the development will go with this phoned compared to the EVO's I'm compared to everyday at work.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
A good amount of stuff has came out with the RIL still not completed, once the RIL is completed, the flood gates will open and you will see a large amount of ROMs made.

bking_soda said:
I'm just looking for thoughts on how far the development will go with this phoned compared to the EVO's I'm compared to everyday at work.
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Click to collapse
... so this is about getting compared to the EVO? You guys have pork sword fights at work too?

Hey now... Pork sword fights are saved for after work. Haha. Not comparing to the EVO, just stating that its been out much longer and had more dev time.

In addition, once 2.3 leaks, the floodgates will open again.

Hey B Soda,
I'm in the same boat as you. I loved my BB Bold dearly. So easy to pimp them girls on it. Just the simplicity of the keyboard, being able to connect with other people.
However now being on my first android, i felt that I made the switch at the right time.
With BlackBerry I felt i could write a good email and msg friends all day, but I could never ever use the browser or attempt to download anything because it really was useless.
Tbolt on the other hand, I was able to do everything that i couldn't do on my blackberry, Msging still sucks on the Tbolt, But it is way way better then trying to browse on a blackberry.
With that said, there is still something i miss about the blackberry, but honestly i couldn't be happier.
One more thing, When i first got into android i was completely loss. I have no idea what to do. It was hours and hours of mindless surfing on many different android websites. Hours of reading on root and roms.
Anyhow Android is the future. Long live Google!!!

I see it like this: the Thunderbolt is still an infant--it eats, sleeps, cries, pukes, and poops. When it gets more mature, it can crawl, walk, talk, and more! It just needs some TLC and patience!

It hasn't even been 2 months. It took a whole month if not more I believe to root the Incredible if I remember correctly. Learn some patience people.
You can't compare this phone to the EVO, the EVO has been out for almost a year now.

I gotta agree with the OP.
Development seems to be at a stand still. I understand most developers are waiting for the ril to be completed. But, while we're waiting other phones will be released and developers will start to look towards that phone for development support. I think we'll be left behind. And it really does seem like only 2 developers are working on getting the ril, but when the G2 was rooted it seemed like all of team douche was working to get the ASOP ROM up and running. With the Thunderbolt it's more like team Slayer. Progress was made quickly with the G2 and other devices. Quickly even with team douche building for all devices at once.
I'm not slapping other developers in the face. I'm currently running adrynalyne build, and I like. Great battery life. But I want the speed and stability other devices have with CM7. I really do appreciate the having the support we currently have. And I've donated to the developers of my choice in support of their work.

Coming from the OG Droid, I noticed that many ROMs are based on CM. So we WILL see many more roms.
I can assure you we will get 2.3.4 sometime in the future especially since HTC "promised" that we'll get some kind of 2.3 version. 3.1 was announced at Google I/O, but that probably won't happen until mid next year for us (if we are lucky).

This is the first Verizon 4g phone. The ril is brand new to all. The phone will take off when the ril is polished and released.
Sent from my ADR6400L using XDA App

I would pay money just to get a virus rom update

i can't wait til they send me my sim card for the tbolt

While I don't have a Thunderbolt and I'm still rocking an OG Droid, I do believe I can say something about this.
I suspect that a lot of people share in these sentiments, myself included. But I believe the reason why is because so many people were amazed at the community that developed after the Droid 1 was released. The Motorola Droid really revolutionized the Android ecosystem. With Android 2.0, Android changed big-time. The Droid (and Android 2.0) was leaps and bounds over anything that had predated it in the Android world, and there was all sorts of development options that opened up with the creation of that new phone.
Unfortunately, I believe that the days of new findings and developments like in the days and weeks in November and December '09 are gone for good, and won't be matched by anything in the near future in the Android world. New phones will come and go, the Thunderbolt included. There will be big-time phones (again, like the Thunderbolt) that people will naturally be attracted to, and those will be the centers of development for the community for a good period of time. But I don't believe you will ever again see a surge in development like you saw for the Motorola Droid.
There is definitely still plenty of development going on in a community like this. It just doesn't seem like as much as there was in the Android community in the past, and it definitely wasn't as much. But I don't think we can ever match those numbers again, so don't let that comparison get you down.

Smok3d said:
A good amount of stuff has came out with the RIL still not completed, once the RIL is completed, the flood gates will open and you will see a large amount of ROMs made.
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Click to collapse
I fully agree with what you said. So far there has been some really good to great stuff but I feel personally this is only the beginning of what potential lies within what could be done with ROMs on the Thunderbolt. I can't wait for the RIL to be finished.

I got my OG Droid in Nov. 09 and I personally do not think ROM development was the golden age like you are so fondly remembering. Verizon's first android phone brought a lot of new people to android. It still took quite awhile for community to evolve.
People seem spoiled now ... TB is new tech, we need to give it time. The Devs are bringing out some very Nice sense based ROMs and AOSP will follow... give it time.

"Is dinner ready yet?!" No. "Is it ready yet?!" No. "How about now?!" No. *shoe to the head* "Ow! What the hell was that for?!"
You get the picture. This is exactly what you guys are doing here but it won't be a shoe that you'll get to the side of your head, you'll have pushed a good developer or two away and then you'll really be crying.
Btw, first paragraph is a true story. Actually happened to me a few times.
Sent from my ADR6400L using XDA Premium App

jab476 said:
I would pay money just to get a virus rom update
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Click to collapse
Cheers, I'm thinking the same thing...

ddgarcia05 said:
I gotta agree with the OP.
Development seems to be at a stand still. I understand most developers are waiting for the ril to be completed. But, while we're waiting other phones will be released and developers will start to look towards that phone for development support. I think we'll be left behind.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So how, exactly, do you expect other LTE devices to leave us left behind? EVERY SINGLE Verizon LTE device will build upon what is done for the RIL with the Thunderbolt. If anything, add'l LTE devices coming will actually HELP the Thunderbolt community! At some point, yeah, we'll move past the Thunderbolt. But that won't be until multi-core phones blow single-core phones away. And we're not close to there yet. Perhaps Ice Cream Sandwich will make that a reality (we hope) and that's still 7(?) months away!

Official GB to come this summer

In my sadness of downgrading back to froyo, I asked HTC when their official release of gb would be out and got this email:
Dear Matthew,
Thank you Matthew for contacting HTC Technical Support. We are excited to announce that HTC Thunderbolt will receive the Gingerbread (Android 2.3) update in Summer 2011.
Our goal is to give every customer the best possible experience on every phone. Every HTC phone is a combination of a unique HTC hardware and software experience and a core operating system. We only update our phones if it will provide an overall improved user experience as we balance features, performance and usability. Stay tuned for details as we get closer to the update availability.
To send a reply to this message or let me know I have successfully answered your question log in to our ContactUs site using your email address and your ticket number xxxxxxxxxxxx.
Sincerely,
Charles
HTC
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Unfortunately, Summer 2011 means anything between April and September.

why can't google make something like where you download os update separate from vendors? so you can update your phone to latest without bringing in useless vendor who only if something slows things down?!

thats what they said before the phone was launched, initially it was june, it might happen since we already had a leak that was pretty stable other than the radio and camera app, so keep your fingers crossed. I am thinking at the end of june.

Free wireless hotspot promo ends June 15 and VZW already said it would be disabled with an ota. Hopefully that will be our gingerbread also.
Sent from my ADR6400L using XDA App

a1exus said:
why can't google make something like where you download os update separate from vendors? so you can update your phone to latest without bringing in useless vendor who only if something slows things down?!
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Click to collapse
it could happen if google had a list of parts vendors are allowed to use. Everyone uses different cpu's, gps chips, wifi, and crap and that's why the os is so fragmented. If google had a set standard for hardware specs it wouldn't be so hard.
Android will always be fragmented, It doesn't mean how many companies sign up for the promised os updates for 18 months. This is one thing that is bad about android. My next phone will be google branded, atleast it has the best support possible.

Didn't they set up like a committee thing with all the companies to speed up the updating process?

krnsushiman said:
Didn't they set up like a committee thing with all the companies to speed up the updating process?
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Click to collapse
Those same companies would also prefer that you purchase a new phone rather than have to support their existing ones.

Im not going to hold my breath waiting for Verizon. Maybe for a more stable leaked release.

If you're going to run with a rooted Bolt you're not going to care when Verizon releases the OTA because by the time they actually do it just about everyone in this forum will be running the leaked (& safe for rooted bolts) radios and ROM of some kind.
We'll also probably see the OTA weeks before VZW acutally pushes it (unless somehow jcase and company can't get their hands on a leaked version and make it safe for rooted phones before the OTA pushes...which I wouldn't bet money on.)

maybe it the start of OZ's summer, so that would make it like december.

Wonder where these leaks come from?

I am more excited about all ROMs moving to GB with stable base. The community ROMs work so much better than the vendor released for my taste.

Motorola RAZR XT910 gets ICS today

The international version of the XT910 gets ICS today, reports GSMArena.com
I almost forgot my experiences from the Cliq and Cliq 2, but when Motorola says an update is ready at quarter whatever, they NEVER EVER mean at the beginning of the quarter.

nick2012 said:
The international version of the XT910 gets ICS today, reports GSMArena.com
I almost forgot my experiences from the Cliq and Cliq 2, but when Motorola says an update is ready at quarter whatever, they NEVER EVER mean at the beginning of the quarter.
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Click to collapse
It's Motorola. They say, "unlocked bootloaders soon," they mean "shut up about unlocked bootloaders." They say, "update in Qx," they mean "update in late Qx or the next quarter after that."
Basically, Google needs to shove its hand up Motorola's butt and turn it into a puppet for it to be respectable in any update or development-related areas.

This things of searching for updates every 4 hours is driving me crazy, i want ICS Now Motorola, did you hear that? You locked us down with the bootloader, at least give us updates more frequently, is that so hard ? Just ask to the developers to work more and stop fooling around in the office.

maxiordoqui said:
This things of searching for updates every 4 hours is driving me crazy, i want ICS Now Motorola, did you hear that? You locked us down with the bootloader, at least give us updates more frequently, is that so hard ? Just ask to the developers to work more and stop fooling around in the office.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The soak hasn't even started yet. Then there'll be further ironing out of the bugs. We're looking at a month here. Save your time and find something useful to do.

athani said:
The soak hasn't even started yet. Then there'll be further ironing out of the bugs. We're looking at a month here. Save your time and find something useful to do.
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+1

athani said:
The soak hasn't even started yet. Then there'll be further ironing out of the bugs. We're looking at a month here. Save your time and find something useful to do.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah, that's my estimation too. Probably Q4 - End of September / beginning of October.

athani said:
The soak hasn't even started yet. Then there'll be further ironing out of the bugs. We're looking at a month here. Save your time and find something useful to do.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I work 10h per day, 5 days per week, i'm not fooling around with the phone all the ****ing time, i just ask what a phone like this diserves, claimin something that the company promised between July-September, thats all.

Screw the soak and OTA...bet it wont beat what I got on it now! I wait for no manufacturer or carrier...they can eat it.
Sent From My Delicious Ice Cream Sandwich! Not Your Disgusting Apple Pie!

nick2012 said:
The international version of the XT910 gets ICS today, reports GSMArena.com
I almost forgot my experiences from the Cliq and Cliq 2, but when Motorola says an update is ready at quarter whatever, they NEVER EVER mean at the beginning of the quarter.
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maxiordoqui said:
I work 10h per day, 5 days per week, i'm not fooling around with the phone all the ****ing time, i just ask what a phone like this diserves, claimin something that the company promised between July-September, thats all.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hate to break it to you but September 2012 ain't over yet!

maxiordoqui said:
I work 10h per day, 5 days per week, i'm not fooling around with the phone all the ****ing time, i just ask what a phone like this diserves, claimin something that the company promised between July-September, thats all.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You need to be patient!
Too many people on here are all bent out of shape that they don't have the "official" ICS yet. Heck be glad you will get it at all, whenever it does come, because a whole lot of phones are not getting it at all.
Checking for an update so often is just a waste of time, until we start to hear that others are seeing at least the SOAK, and guess what, that still has not been released to those on the SOAK list.
Again just be patient, it will get here, when it get's here.

jimbridgman said:
You need to be patient!
Too many people on here are all bent out of shape that they don't have the "official" ICS yet. Heck be glad you will get it at all, whenever it does come, because a whole lot of phones are not getting it at all.
Checking for an update so often is just a waste of time, until we start to hear that others are seeing at least the SOAK, and guess what, that still has not been released to those on the SOAK list.
Again just be patient, it will get here, when it get's here.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
There's a big problem with that Jim. I don't know of many instances where it would be acceptable for a company to issue a date for the availability of a product or service, and then push back that deadline multiple times. My clients would ditch me and go with the competition if I ran my business like that.
Which brings me to the part where we should all just be thankful to get ICS at all, because so many other phones will not. Well Jim, I bought a really expensive phone with above average hardware. I would except nothing less than getting ICS in a timely manner. With so much competition around - HTC and your own Samsung - Motorola should be very interested in keeping me happy and loyal, and making sure that my expensive devices are up-to-date and competitive.
That, Jim, is what I should be able to expect from Motorola as a customer. People in the category of 'glad you will get it at all, whenever it does come, because a whole lot of phones are not getting it at all.' - Those are iPhone owners who know they buy a product with restrictions in order to own a 'life style product'.
I will not accept to be treated like this by Motorola, with empty promises of unlocked bootloaders, and repeatedly pushed back deadlines for software releases. That is not good customer care, and Motorola won't be the brand of my next cell phone. And by the looks of it, Jim, you didn't like your Atrix 2 enough to not get a SGS 3 as well.
If I had a SGS 3 I wouldn't really worry about the ICS release for Atrix 2 so much either...

nick2012 said:
There's a big problem with that Jim. I don't know of many instances where it would be acceptable for a company to issue a date for the availability of a product or service, and then push back that deadline multiple times. My clients would ditch me and go with the competition if I ran my business like that.
Which brings me to the part where we should all just be thankful to get ICS at all, because so many other phones will not. Well Jim, I bought a really expensive phone with above average hardware. I would except nothing less than getting ICS in a timely manner. With so much competition around - HTC and your own Samsung - Motorola should be very interested in keeping me happy and loyal, and making sure that my expensive devices are up-to-date and competitive.
That, Jim, is what I should be able to expect from Motorola as a customer. People in the category of 'glad you will get it at all, whenever it does come, because a whole lot of phones are not getting it at all.' - Those are iPhone owners who know they buy a product with restrictions in order to own a 'life style product'.
I will not accept to be treated like this by Motorola, with empty promises of unlocked bootloaders, and repeatedly pushed back deadlines for software releases. That is not good customer care, and Motorola won't be the brand of my next cell phone. And by the looks of it, Jim, you didn't like your Atrix 2 enough to not get a SGS 3 as well.
If I had a SGS 3 I wouldn't really worry about the ICS release for Atrix 2 so much either...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Again, wait for it... wait for it...
You bought the ticket, you take the ride (HST) so therefore, don't go around expecting a mega corporation to listen to your squeaks. You may own a small business, or a semi-large scale one, but regardless, you are nothing more than a speck on the radar of Motorola, nor am I, nor is Jim or any other person here or beyond. That being said, don't expect that just because you had certain expectations that you held prior to, and during your purchase of the ATRIX 2 that you'd get to have your cake and eat it also. Clearly, it ain't so.
Furthermore, companies do this sort of thing all the freaking time, it isn't something new, nor is it unheard of. As they say in the transportation industries, "nothing's certain in the shipping business". Same goes for technology. Software isn't something that is like a shoe, which can be mass produced after testing on a robotic "foot" for a couple of weeks. It has to be fully tested by numerous factorizations both in user capacities and otherwise.
If you feel Motorola owes you a 'timely' delivery of ICS, write them a nice letter. I'm sure it will get opened and read around the time that your letter to Santa Claus arrives to the North Pole. Both are about as useless as the other.
Quit spamming the board with 'who got what when' with a follow-up pouty faced retort about why you have this enormous sense of entitlement to get the update as you see fit.
This ain't the place for that...

nick2012 said:
There's a big problem with that Jim. I don't know of many instances where it would be acceptable for a company to issue a date for the availability of a product or service, and then push back that deadline multiple times. My clients would ditch me and go with the competition if I ran my business like that.
Which brings me to the part where we should all just be thankful to get ICS at all, because so many other phones will not. Well Jim, I bought a really expensive phone with above average hardware. I would except nothing less than getting ICS in a timely manner. With so much competition around - HTC and your own Samsung - Motorola should be very interested in keeping me happy and loyal, and making sure that my expensive devices are up-to-date and competitive.
That, Jim, is what I should be able to expect from Motorola as a customer. People in the category of 'glad you will get it at all, whenever it does come, because a whole lot of phones are not getting it at all.' - Those are iPhone owners who know they buy a product with restrictions in order to own a 'life style product'.
I will not accept to be treated like this by Motorola, with empty promises of unlocked bootloaders, and repeatedly pushed back deadlines for software releases. That is not good customer care, and Motorola won't be the brand of my next cell phone. And by the looks of it, Jim, you didn't like your Atrix 2 enough to not get a SGS 3 as well.
If I had a SGS 3 I wouldn't really worry about the ICS release for Atrix 2 so much either...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Wow I don't even know where to start with how wrong your post is.
I think this is the best comparison.... Say you buy a computer and it comes with windows xp installed and you are told by the store you bought it at that windows 7 is supposed to be out in the 2nd quarter and it is April. Now since it is April are you going to go to that store and whine because Microsoft is "late", or call dell or HP. Guess what there was no promise that windows 7 or 8 is guaranteed to run on your "newish" PC...
I do own my own company and all I provide is services and no products.
If I am late on a project it is not even the same as a company that sells hardware, and gives you the software for... wait for it... free. Even then it is usually 1 upgrade in the smartphone market. Guess what we have had our one upgrade already. Moto owes you nothing. Besides you bought the phone not a copy of android from Motorola/Att. Microsoft NEVER gives you a free upgrade to the next version.
P.S. we are still in the third quarter, and moto is technically not "late" on their delivery, nor have they pushed it back even once, it will still be 3rd quarter, just late 3rd quarter.
Now, grow up and stop posting crap and new threads that have nothing to do with the atrix 2. Or jump in and help dev and get us some great stuff as myself and others have been doing for 10 months now.
Also the ONLY reason I got an sgs3 is because I am a cyanogenmod dev now, and I need a phone that can run official builds. I am still sticking with the atrix 2 and still doing dev work for it.
In other words put up or shut up. By doing what you are doing does not make ics come any faster and it just pisses this community off, because we are not the ones holding it back.

We all need to calm down a bit.. yes nobody is happy with Moto's poicies, the bootloader and all, but as far as ICS is concerned, they have promised us it in Q3 and we are still in middle of it, a whole 45 days to go. One thing that we need to understand is ICS is a big leap from Gingerbread. When ICS was out i thought we can see it on devices in few months, but the fact that CM9 stable is out now, tells us the story.
We made a choice, of choosing A2, instead of many other top dogs of that time. We love the hardware, the capabilities and everything else. Even now when i see the SGS II, the build quality i know i have made the right choice, yeah it aint comforting when i see those guys running plethora of ROMs though.
Bottom line is you made your choice stick to it and wait, wait until Moto gives you ICS.. or start a campaign, better for bootloader unlock though.. that way we dont have to wait this long for updates.
Edit: the most funny part of my post? My signpic
Ps: Apex, calm down a bit mate, you are not going well with these type of posts. Yeah i know most of them are ridiculous but ignoring will be a good idea. And Jim's reputation wont change wee bit with these kind of posts. You guys are rock stars and just keep rocking.
Sent from my MB865 using xda app-developers app

Just Realizing... OEMs are Taking Advantage of us!

Alright, so after reading a couple articles on a bunch of sites. I can sort of understand a vicious cycle that's going on in the mobile development world.
First off, let me begin, Mobile OEMs (as we all know) don't release updates very often. And as a general rule, when they do... it's usually a couple months late. Just look at HTC devices, most of the (somewhat) older devices (depending on what you're definition of older is) aren't getting the updates to ICS for while http://goo.gl/FjcMJ . And in some cases they just decide not to update them at all. (see the Desire HD and possibly the Thunderbolt http://goo.gl/BwZld )
Initially when Android started, this was a little different. And allow me to clarify by going far far back, to the first Android device. The HTC Dream.
It initially came out with Android 1.0 (Astro) it eventually got updated all the way to the software version 1.5 (Cupcake). If you look back then, that's two software updates! Astro to Bender to Cupcake.
Now let's look at just about any other Android device (not made my Samsung, for the most part they're a bad example... (of course then again, they have the head of Cyanogenmod Steve Kondik on their team).
We're going to look at Motorola, because despite the fact that it's owned by Google, not all of their devices have received updates. And the device I've chosen from them is the defy. Now if you look over at the development section of the forums you'll see that we have a working (and apparently a very smooth) port of Jelly Bean for the Defy. http://goo.gl/mE1Qy
But if you decide to see what Motorola's deciding to do to update it from Gingerbread, well... their development section is devoid of everything for the Defy... http://goo.gl/g8XN0
Now why does that matter to us happy go lucky developers and modders? Well let's look over this little scenario I've played out in my head more than once.
CEO#1 "Oh they want Jelly Bean?"
CEO#2 "Yeah they do..."
CEO#1 "So what are we going to do about it?"
CEO#2 *checks XDA* "Nothing, the ones who really care about it have a working ROM up already."
CEO#1 "Okay, sounds good to me. So are you ready to go make some more phones with high specs and outdated software?"
CEO#2 "Well if we start now, we should be able to get six new devices running ICS 4.0.3 out by mid December!"
CEO#1 "Ohh, not even having the latest version of ICS is really going to get them. Brilliant!"
This is a vicious cycle that just keeps going around, and around, and around. The problem is that there doesn't seem to be a way to stop it. While we need Superuser and rooting privileges, we also need updates to the latest version of Android OS to keep us going.
OEMs on the other hand see us as free labor for development and as the only people who really want/need the updates. The problem is that with their history of sending out updates we really can't stop working. And even when they do send out updates, sometimes they aren't even fully stable! (see Evo 3D http://goo.gl/VzCNM )
So the question is, how are we going to stop this?

Buy devices from the companies that keep things up to date. The Nexus gets direct pushes from Google so you know you're good there. Sony has a dedicated line to developers through their forums and even offers devices for temporary dev use and has reasonably priced unsubsidised phones.
Put your dollars in the right places if you want to make change happen. Those who want full access still aren't a large enough part of the market to shape everything. That said, people pushing for control have made sure that iDevices can be jailbroken and HTC is staggering hard because of mis-steps in marketing that have been worsened by lackluster updates and their decision to shun the dev community that was bolstering them.

They can't look at xda or whatever Android forum because there is a larger population of users who have no idea what rooting is, let alone custom ROMs. Those people depend on updates and if they won't get an official update, they won't get one at all.
Sent from my MB508 using xda premium

If you ask 10 Android users what version of Android they are on, 8 of them will have no clue, 1 will know because the sales rep used it as a selling point, and one of them will be running Jellybean (thanks to XDA!).
Consumer demand is not high enough to demand the cost of testing new software on dated phones. Sad but true.

thebeastglasser said:
OEMs on the other hand see us as free labor for development and as the only people who really want/need the updates.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If they really saw us as free labor, they would release a phone with cyanogenmod or something and just kang whatever works for their next update. (Actually, this would be a very good idea.)
However, in actuality, they just don't care about the devs. Too busy trying to differentiate their products with custom skins and cause more work for everyone.

It is true that most people don't know much more than that they are are android or "droid", just like many people don't know much more than they have an Iphone. The vocal majority of phone users (online) however have quite a bit more knowledge which means they get much more feedback from the minority.
One of the main reasons (other than price) that I got a Nexus 7 was due to the fact that Google pushes updates immediately to their nexus devices. I see this as an additional "perk".

You can't buy a device Android or other from an OEM or carrier and expect to get the latest greatest updates a or mods any too quickly. Forums and sites like xda bring in developers and users who ate eager to offer mods and help that you will never find coming from the mainstream as quickly or with the same quality. I get the device I want and look to here to make it better quicker.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using xda app-developers app

But what I see is that there are a bunch of phones that could easily be running better software (like the Defy) but OEMs clearly see that anybody who seems to care enough about updates are doing it themselves. The problem is, there are relatives of mine who refuse to root and yet they know enough about phones to know what version they're running and know the difference between the two versions. The one they currently have, and the one they could have.
I feel like this is kind of unfair to the sed-mentioned people and on top of that, it makes uneducated users buy more phones, while it keeps people like us are at work.
I'd bet that it was a pain in the a** porting ICS to the Desire HD no thanks to HTC, and yet this is just one less job for HTC and a hell of a lot more work for us... That's just me.
And also, that idea for a "pre-kanged" phone or one running a version of Cyanogenmod is pretty good. It'd be a great idea...

Again, speak with your dollars. I have no doubt that Nexus sales will continue to climb not only because of devs, but because people who just end up with them will like seeing timely updates and devices that continue to get better and better. If you want to help the rise of affordable, quality devices then steer others toward them when you can and buy them yourself when it's time for something new.

Also, people on xda do not see development as a "work", they see it as a hobby...
So even if all the phones were on the latest android, the dev community here at Xda would still be hard at "work" to come up with something better...something which the OEM's and Google couldn't think of implementing even with such large resources at their disposal...
And let's face it, apart from games, the general public in large doesn't have "need" for BETTER phones...
I've seen the likes of HTC One X and Galaxy S3 go in the hands of people for whom multitasking would mean chatting on whatsapp while waiting for the fb app to load...
So the question would arise, if the public doesn't "need" better phones, how do we sell it to them?
The answer becomes clear, stop giving them updates...make them feel that their device is outdated...that they "need" a NEW and BETTER phone...
The ones who understand the capability of their phone would have the ability, or more importantly, the will to make the updates happen...
For the rest, well there's fancy advertising...
Hope this clears up...
- Via xda premium

Yeah, I suppose it makes sense. Thanks guys!

How many people are there using Android? About 60% of the market, which means hundred milion users How many members do we have here on XDA? Less than hundred thousands! It means that regular users dont know and dont care what OS they use or even dont know what the update is. Froyo, GB, ICS, JB sound like alien languages for most of regular users. For those who know wat they are using, they are already XDA members, the rest just doesnt care or they just simply buy an iCrapple. Therefore, there is no way you can stop that. Customers are always taken granted by companies.
Sent from my SGH-T989 using xda app-developers app

Extreemly well put. We all knew it but didn't say anything. I am awaiting the next nexus for this very reason. Props to thebeastglasser

MissionImprobable said:
Again, speak with your dollars. I have no doubt that Nexus sales will continue to climb
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The bundling is too strong with this market. When there are literally only one or two phone brands, usually otherwise sub-par, that are stock, the voting with dollars won't make much of a difference. It's like voting in an election where a lot of people who might prefer a pure candidate are given tons of reasons to go with more mainstream ones.
So how can change actually be effected? First and most obviously, google might dictate to motorola to make stock phones. Hopefully, that will happen and stock android will start getting a positive reputation for straightforward and automatic upgrades.
The other option starts at grassroots levels: this bundling leaves a gap in the market, and eventually someone should step in to fill that gap. I can imagine small start ups in third-world countries (where price is a real issue) revitalizing older brands with the highest supported cyanogenmod, then selling them at still relatively low prices for a profit. If there is enough demand for this, this "repackaging" business would be emulated all over and the OEMs might start to take a hint.

For the record there are over four million members on XDA...

thebeastglasser said:
For the record there are over four million members on XDA...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not currently active users though. Remember XDA used to make you register to download files so that jacked up the member rate.

thebobp said:
The bundling is too strong with this market. When there are literally only one or two phone brands, usually otherwise sub-par, that are stock, the voting with dollars won't make much of a difference. It's like voting in an election where a lot of people who might prefer a pure candidate are given tons of reasons to go with more mainstream ones.
So how can change actually be effected? First and most obviously, google might dictate to motorola to make stock phones. Hopefully, that will happen and stock android will start getting a positive reputation for straightforward and automatic upgrades.
The other option starts at grassroots levels: this bundling leaves a gap in the market, and eventually someone should step in to fill that gap. I can imagine small start ups in third-world countries (where price is a real issue) revitalizing older brands with the highest supported cyanogenmod, then selling them at still relatively low prices for a profit. If there is enough demand for this, this "repackaging" business would be emulated all over and the OEMs might start to take a hint.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The Chinese market is already doing that, and with brand new phones that come both rooted and sometimes unlocked. Yes, there are other markets in which this can be done, but it doesn't make sense to talk on the one hand about voting with dollars not making a difference and then saying third-world resellers will change the game.
Google is marketing a clean, recognizable line in their Nexus devices, advertising intelligently, and making sure that they continue to stay on the latest firmware. Supporting them and other companies who do so will dictate what model corporations follow. Again, HTC is eating crow because their abandonment of the dev community and their decision to spread themselves thin, ala Motorola, who are also being dug out of a hole now by Google. I'd say both companies have paid the price for ignoring what the marketplace demands.
Moto had everyone hooked with the original Droid so there is no doubt that share is won or lost by how you approach relevancy for the long run. Go back and look at how many people loved their OG Droids in every way but have now moved on to other brands because of locked bootloaders and lack of firmware updates on the models that followed. Money makes the corporate world go round and every little bit helps.
Grassroots movements have done everything from keeping the iPhone legal to jailbreak to getting a man his goodies when a WP store tried to pull a fast one in regards to him winning the WP challenge to getting VZ to clarify that they wouldn't be doing anything to their Unlimited users. We may not be the majority, but we are far more organized and informed than the masses and as such what we do gets noticed and picked up on by tech, blog, and news coverage. The only ones who don't make change happen are the naysayers who sit by and do nothing. Support the brands that support the customers and devs.

MissionImprobable said:
The Chinese market is already doing that, and with brand new phones that come both rooted and sometimes unlocked. Yes, there are other markets in which this can be done, but it doesn't make sense to talk on the one hand about voting with dollars not making a difference and then saying third-world resellers will change the game.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sure voting makes sense.. if you're in another country where the election's not as rigged.
MissionImprobable said:
Again, HTC is eating crow because their abandonment of the dev community and their decision to spread themselves thin, ala Motorola, who are also being dug out of a hole now by Google. I'd say both companies have paid the price for ignoring what the marketplace demands.
Moto had everyone hooked with the original Droid so there is no doubt that share is won or lost by how you approach relevancy for the long run. Go back and look at how many people loved their OG Droids in every way but have now moved on to other brands because of locked bootloaders and lack of firmware updates on the models that followed. Money makes the corporate world go round and every little bit helps.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm not really convinced that Motorola's and HTC's losses were due to locked bootloaders, or even lack of firmware updates. Rather, I think it's due to brand inertia: at some point, Samsung came up with a phone (the Galaxy S2) that was so far ahead of anything else on the market at the time, that they just grabbed market share and brand loyalty from many of the consumers on the market. This has little to do with the Galaxy Nexus, and indeed their "next big thing" has been the horribly backward (from a stock perspective) S3 and the Note.

It's been my perception that there is a strong correlation between developer support and whatever device I want to get next.
When I got my very first phone, it was the Samsung Captivate.
It had (Still has) great dev support. I decided not to wait a month to get the Moto Atrix because, there was no predicting what kind of dev support it would have despite having great specs. I find that (generally speaking) Samsung phones have had strong dev support.
I sort of hate to point this out.. But, if you think the "average consumer" cares about upgrades.. I would be inclined to disagree. A lot of people do care about upgrades.. Myself, my girlfriend, a lot of people who frequent forums in general.
Still, your average consumer is probably more concerned with the screen size than the software it's packing. Even if ICS is "nicer" and "more elegant" there are a lot of people who really don't know or even care what OS their phone is running. As long as they can text and check facebook, they aren't going to be bothered with the small details of "Jellybean" or "ICS"
I have to be completely honest when I admit, if I were a manufacturer.. I don't honestly know how inclined I would be to release OS updates. Not because I want to be an evil corporation and force you to upgrade to get the newest OS.. But, because putting it plain and simply.. It takes time, energy, and money to release an update. If *ANYTHING* goes wrong with the update and even a single person doesn't follow the instructions.. It becomes really hard to prove they are the one at fault. So you spend your time and energy making an update, potentially having more cost incurred due to possibly damaged hardware, and then finally.. wondering how many people really cared in the first place. A lot of people don't care and even won't upgrade their phone because, they perceive it as "a pointless endeavor."

thebobp said:
Sure voting makes sense.. if you're in another country where the election's not as rigged.
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Click to collapse
What does this have to do with supporting companies that support us? Voting with your dollars is a metaphor; it doesn't mean that there is an election for phones.

Motorola just heaped a load of cow dung on us today!

Today the Moto upgrade page changed the status of the AT&T Atrix 2 and Atrix 4G to "Further plans coming soon," so they have reneged on their promise of 3rd quarter of this year. Thanks Moto for heaping a stinking load of cow dung on us. Why did they have people sign up for a soak test that never happened? Here is the upgrade page updated on 22-September-2012.
https://forums.motorola.com/pages/00add97d6c
Unless they plan on going straight to Jelly Bean this is very upsetting.

I'm really hoping that this means we are going straight to JB, but knowing Moto, who knows. I guess we are lucky they haven't relegated us to staying on GB like they did with some of the other devices on that list.
Sent from my MB865 using xda app-developers app

They could've just released the second or first leak as the OTA and unlocked the BL and ppl would've been happy.
Hopefully we get JB... not counting on it though. Good thing i decided to install the leak and SCv7. Thanks to jim and rdavisct and all the devs here.
Motorola sucks! I'm very upset about this.
Sent from my MB865 using xda app-developers app

Other regions are getting ICS rolled out...
Its not moto its at&t, and its at&t about the bootloaders too, the Photon Q is a sprint phone, thats why you can unlock the bootloader.

I'm going to blame the carriers on this one. No other reason moto can roll out ICS to Atrix 2 that are in other regions other then the USA.
FYI: ICS is official in the SEA region as of 11 Sept. The website says Q4 2012, but let me assure you, that is not the case.
Motorola SEA
11 September
Good morning! We are pleased to let our Motorola XOOM2 and ATRIX2 users know that they will be receiving an over-the-air update to Android 4.0 (Ice Cream Sandwich). Users can also do a manual upgrade by going to Settings\About Tablet\Systems Updates. Please note that the upgrade does not allow for a previous version of Android to be re-installed, and we do recommend that users back up their data prior to this upgrade.
For more inquiries please contact our Product Inquiry Hotlines listed in our previous post. Thank you.

Yes, after some reflection the blame should be on AT&T. Atrix 2s all over the world including China, Cambodia, India and more got the ICS update already. So the likely reason is that AT&T blocked the update so people would upgrade to a new phone and extend their contracts. Since I am using an AT&T Atrix 2 (unlocked) in Thailand that is not an option for me. For regular AT&T customers with an Atrix 2, it looks like AT&T scubmagged you.

I am not a litigious person but if AT&T is blocking these updates, there are some grounds for us the consumer for a legal remedy. There are bugs and problems with the current OS and the update is supposed to fix these for us. The fact that AT&T is blocking us from getting them from the manufacturer is a violation and breach of our warranty and grounds for a lawsuit.

I am now a bit more thankful that I moved onto the AHD, however I mourn for all of my Atrix 2 friends here.
The good news is that the A2 community already has two different ICS leaks which have been worked on since early July, so it's not as if the phones can't run ICS at all. Needless to say, AT&T seems to be the culprit for this major hold-up.
Also, @ ajsedlacek, you likely wouldn't be able to sue AT&T for anything. They probably have a clause releasing them from any potential lawsuits once you sign a contract agreement with them.

Agree 100% with this. In the US the carriers hold all the power. None of them are exempt. Heck... look at the BS Verizon pulled with their "Nexus"
All international phones will get updates first for a variety of reasons, with a big reason being the carriers
Sent from my SGH-I777 using xda premium

I think most of us saw this coming. When I woke up this morning and saw the news, it definitely wasn't surprising to me.
My opinion on all of this, screw it. We've got awesome Devs here that are absolutely awesome at what they do, and personally, the LEAKS that we have of ICS are just fine for me.
Also, CM10 from Jim (and others) is right around the corner, and that excites me much more than getting official ICS. Granted it would be nice to have the official version, but there are better things in store for our Atrix 2.

Axis_Drummer said:
I think most of us saw this coming. When I woke up this morning and saw the news, it definitely wasn't surprising to me.
My opinion on all of this, screw it. We've got awesome Devs here that are absolutely awesome at what they do, and personally, the LEAKS that we have of ICS are just fine for me.
Also, CM10 from Jim (and others) is right around the corner, and that excites me much more than getting official ICS. Granted it would be nice to have the official version, but there are better things in store for our Atrix 2.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree 100%.
Sent from my MB865 running CM10

What folks here really need to do, is swallow their 'entitlements' and stop acting like they're "owed" something. It's getting ridiculous, and rather embarrassing to read. You all bought an Atrix 2, that doesn't mean you also purchased the moon and the stars and everything else you've ever wished upon. We get what we get, so don't throw a fit. Whatever comes our way, will be made more amazing by our talented development team. Stop crying about timetables, what you anticipated, and what you feel you deserve. It's a phone for Christ's sake, and to be such malcontents about when we "get this or that" is leaving a rather bitter, self-warranted, rotten taste in the mouth of this forum. Does Motorola suck? Yeah, undeniably so. Does AT&T hold back inexplicably? Certainly. But, you bought the tickets, now take the ride. Stop complaining, or buy another phone. If you're staying with the A2, you can take solace in the fact we have an inarguable competence and talent here, otherwise, take your b¡tching elsewhere. It's growing ever so redundant, and removes from the integrity of everything we've done here, if the threads are flooded with crap like this...
Two bits offered, take 'em or leave 'em...
EDIT: Sorry for the rant, but c'mon, enough is enough.
Sent from my rooted Mayan Calendar

whatever, man
i told my mommy im not getting ics, and she's calling at&t tomorrow :laugh:

souljaboy said:
whatever, man
i told my mommy im not getting ics, and she's calling at&t tomorrow :laugh:
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Case in point. I've seen enough from you already.
Edit: If you're joking around with me, ha-Ha. I hope that's what you're looking for. If not, you have more practice to be done with your reading comprehension.
Sent from my rooted Mayan Calendar

Yeah.., I'm not understanding why everyone is crazy about "OFFICIAL" ICS. We already have a leak or rather 2 that have barely if any bugs and a couple of GREAT rom's based on ICS. Furthermore we have a fully working build of CM10 based of off Jellybean (not counting the camera... yet). Personally I couldn't care less about when an "official" version is released because it won't change anything, and I advise you all to do the same.

Just my 2 cents. Not in response to anybody but just my opinion.
The whole argument about updates being not "promised" and being "gratis" is bogus. So is the argument about manufacturers hands being tied by Google.
Short of a legally enforceable contract, Google as well as the manufacturers do everything in their power to lead people into believing that their phones will be updated to the next version of the OS. Google had announced the Alliance with the declared aim of providing OS updates for 18 months from device release date. Last time I checked, Moto was a part of the alliance. Moto has had the Atrix 2 on its update page since February 2012, if I'm not wrong. At the very least, this is a Gentleman's agreement on the part of Google/manufacturer that our phone will be updated. Now if any manufacturer wants to say that it had made no legally binding committment to update, where is the honour in that? Why should I trust such a corporation with my hard earned money in the future? As far as I'm concerned, there WAS a pomise, either express or implied, to update my phone and the manufacturer has dishonourably reneged.
This appeared on the Moto forum:
"Thank you for being a Motorola Mobility customer. We know you value having the latest and greatest technology on your device. We are working very closely with Google and our carrier partners to bring you the best possible experience on each of our devices powered by Android. This means ensuring that all upgrades and updates enhance device functionality and provide an overall improved experience.
As previously communicated, DROID RAZR, DROID RAZR MAXX, DROID 4, DROID BIONIC, DROID XYBOARD 8.2 and 10.1, and MOTOROLA XOOM WiFI + 3G/4G will be upgraded to ICS. Additional details on timing for these products will be shared at a later date.
To help our customers understand the steps we go through to develop an upgrade, we are describing the high-level process for delivering upgrades below. During this process, we work to ensure that an upgrade is possible, and that it provides a satisfying experience. For each smartphone or tablet currently in the market, you will see updated information on what stage the upgrade plan is in.
* Please note this timing is Motorola Mobility's best estimate and contingent on successful completion of testing.
==> https://forums.motorola.com/pages/00add97d6c"
Clearly that sounds like a promise of OS upgrades to come. So untill my next phone states on the box "This unit will not receive any further OS updates from us" I'll expect the updates to come in a somewhat timely manner.
Updates being free is anouther argument I have never understood, even when accompanied by the inappropriate analogy of PC and Windows OS. Unlike in PCs, mobile device owners are completely dependent on the manufacturer to provide OS updates. The cost of developing updates has obviously already been paid in advance by the device owners - would the manufacturers sell even half the number of devices if they told their customers upfront that they would not provide any updates? These are functionality and security updates to an OS that is still in its infancy on products that cost hundreds of dollars one way or the other.
About manufacturers being hamstrung by Google/carriers, Google has already released the OS source code for manufacturers to do as they please. The carrier argument may be true though - I guess if you buy a subsidized phone, you got to be prepared to pamper to the whims of the carrier.
About the phones getting updates through leaks, I would guess even the people who do not visit xda, who don't know nothing about installing leaks ... deserve to have ICS on their phones?

Apex_Strider said:
What folks here really need to do, is swallow their 'entitlements' and stop acting like they're "owed" something.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ummm...Yes, I (we) are owed something. Its called updates and bug fixes.
So far one upgrade with no real fixes...
If you're OK with that, so be it. But don't try to sit here and tell people what they should or should not be doing.
Yes the deb's here have done a great job. Saying that, its not their jobs! It is that of Motorola's and at&TS.
Sent from my MB865 using xda app-developers app

dk-v1 said:
Ummm...Yes, I (we) are owed something. Its called updates and bug fixes.
So far one upgrade with no real fixes...
If you're OK with that, so be it. But don't try to sit here and tell people what they should or should not be doing.
Yes the deb's here have done a great job. Saying that, its not their jobs! It is that of Motorola's and at&TS.
Sent from my MB865 using xda app-developers app
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You've so much to learn, young grasshopper...
The "upgrade" wasn't an 'upgrade', it was a leak, I'm sure you recall this, yeah? If it was an official OTA, and needed "bug fixes", likely we would have already gotten them. What we did, was hack the Moto servers, to 'fish' for updates. We found one (two, to be specific) and nothing subsequent to that is owed to us by Moto or AT&T, because what we found wasn't even intended for use by us -the end consumer. We'll get the release when we get it. My point was for everyone to stop this incessant b¡tching and whining. It's borderline manic...
Sent from my rooted Mayan Calendar

I don't think anyone feels entitled to anything, but it is reasonable to expect some updates and maintenance. Granted we got 2.3.6, but is that really an update when most everyone else at the time was running 2.3.7?
I don't think anyone here questions the contributions made by the devs, nor isn't grateful. I think we're all just frustrated that we're behind the times and know that we have a lot of potential going to waste.
I came from M3 and had a Motorola Cliq XT, so I been through all of this before with Moto and their updates. Fortunately we had Turl (which some of you devs might know), and when I left there about a year ago we had CM7 2.3.7 running great on a phone that had barely a 1/3 of the hardware we have on our A2.
I'm confident we'll move forward, we have some great devs here. We're all entitled to our opinions and expectations, and we all want more because we know we're more than capable of taking advantage of it. I think we just need to organize and focus on what we have going on here at XDA. Personally, I'm excited for CM10 and can't wait to get something more proper running on this piece lol.
Sent from my MB865 using xda app-developers app

Not sure how I feel about this. Mixed feelings here. Their explanations are not very clear.