Related
I'm not sure if this has been discussed already, i already did a quick google search and didn't find anything...
But i was just thinking, there are always great apps that i find honestly every week on XDA, mostly because they're just burried under pages, or maybe dont have the same wild popularity that ifart does. But does anyone else think it'd be a great idea if we could maybe somehow take donations from XDA users, and then use this money to register XDA as a developer on the Microsofts upcoming Marketplace store? Maybe it could be turned into something where we the users actually vote which applications should be submitted on a weekly or montly basis. I just think there's so many great apps on XDA that it'd be a great way to get them, and xda-devs as well, some exposure. I'm sure there's lots of people on XDA that have developed great apps whether they be keyboards, or scroll modification tools, or other utilities that may not want to spend 99 bucks and dont think they will actually develop 6 apps.
Chime in guys, i dunno if i'm crazy...but i think it might be a good idea.
I suspect that the first major hurdle would be this:
You are able to download so many great apps from XDA-Devs because they are generally free, and that is why people are allowed to post them here. If they were not free, I am pretty sure they can no longer be advertised on XDA-Devs, correct me if I am wrong.
So if there was a way to recoupe the $99 join fee when all people are doing is offering free apps and taking no profit, them I am sure people would be willing to consider it. I also believe that after you have uploaded six apps, then it is another $99 for every app after, no?
It is a good idea, and deserves some thought, I just can't think of how to make it viable. XDA is popular enough that if there was a way to make money from it, it would have made its own marketplace
Hey everyone,
Have you been annoyed lately with the maket? Like how alot of times when downloading apps just hangs? Or like how it takes down apps that are "against" carriers TOC? And takes 30% of the profits from devs for paid apps?
Well we just had this random idea yesterday and it was to make a new market...
This market will be for the community by the community.
Such as the ability to blacklist apps/devs..
And advanced searching...
etc...
Its called AppWire http://appwire.org (as you see the sites not made yet ;D )
We just had this idea yesterday so its still in its infant stage, so we still need all app dev's and web dev's we can get!
If you can't help with developement then feel free to post feature requests!
If you want help with development email me at aakashbpatel [at] gmail.com or look for us in the #appwire channel on freenode.
Thanks Everyone!
I think there's already something similar to this. Forgot its name though. But I do agree Google's policy of removing apps that violate *one* carrier's TOS is ridiculous.
So, lemme get this right - you complain that apps are being removed because they are against the carrier TOC, but one of the features you want to build into your market is the ability to blacklist apps/devs?
Sorry, but the Android market really isn't THAT bad. Sure, annoying at times, but 99% of the time it works, plus I don't think 30% is that excessive at all.
ScottC said:
So, lemme get this right - you complain that apps are being removed because they are against the carrier TOC, but one of the features you want to build into your market is the ability to blacklist apps/devs?
Sorry, but the Android market really isn't THAT bad. Sure, annoying at times, but 99% of the time it works, plus I don't think 30% is that excessive at all.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Blacklist apps ONLY if people vote to take it off...
Thanks
Aakash
How many Markets do we really need? We already have the official Market, AndAppStore, SlideME, and several other places to purchase apps. The more Markets there are, the more difficult it is to distribute apps. And users simply need to go more places to find the same stuff. Maybe if we make a real effort with Google to get changes implemented everyone will be better off. Just my opinion.
nEx.Software said:
How many Markets do we really need? We already have the official Market, AndAppStore, SlideME, and several other places to purchase apps. The more Markets there are, the more difficult it is to distribute apps. And users simply need to go more places to find the same stuff. Maybe if we make a real effort with Google to get changes implemented everyone will be better off. Just my opinion.
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Click to collapse
I agree with you also, and I was looking at slidme's TOC's and it pretty muc said that they own your app if you publish it....and I didn't think it was right that they have the ability to do that.
So I wanted to make a market that everyones opinion matters and one that respects the app developers also.
ScottC said:
So, lemme get this right - you complain that apps are being removed because they are against the carrier TOC, but one of the features you want to build into your market is the ability to blacklist apps/devs?
Sorry, but the Android market really isn't THAT bad. Sure, annoying at times, but 99% of the time it works, plus I don't think 30% is that excessive at all.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
the blacklist would be custom to each person not market wide, like if I didnt want to see apps by "DEV A" ONLY I wouldn't see apps by DEV A, alls "99%" of the time, i think thats pushing it i must not use market often or maybe you are on the lucky side.
Its not that bad of an idea, if anyone has experience with ipod touch or iphone, it could be set up something like cydia. A user customizable market in which apps that the normal market wont allow are easier available and such. Though, the blacklist should be just like on a personal basis or not there at all as it would defeat the purpose of the whole thing for more freedom. I think thats kinda what he was suggesting, if so not to bad.
Great idea, totally support!
More options is better. And right now I don't know any "markets" where I can easily download wifi-tether for example. Plus the original market luck of web-interface and (really) many other features. So, for me an alternative market seems like a good idea. It just doesn't look for me like an easy project
there is another one but that one sucks!
this seems like a cool idea for hardcore root access apps and apps that people dont want googles paws on in general
ScottC said:
So, lemme get this right - you complain that apps are being removed because they are against the carrier TOC, but one of the features you want to build into your market is the ability to blacklist apps/devs?
Sorry, but the Android market really isn't THAT bad. Sure, annoying at times, but 99% of the time it works, plus I don't think 30% is that excessive at all.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Im kinda on the fence on the "blacklist" issue. On one hand, it is the right of the developer to develop applications for this platform, and to release his/her work on the market to be used/previewed/rated/commented/purchased by other users. It is also their right to be paid for their efforts. On the other hand, I certainly agree that assaulting the market with 10 different $5 slideshows a day, is verging on MALICIOUS. Seriously, ive never even DOWNLOADED anything put out by Khalid Shaik, yet im sure that none of these slideshows take more than 15 or 20 minutes to produce, i bet not even that long. And $4.99?!?!?!?!?!?!?! SINCE WHEN is a slideshow about Swine Flu worth $5 bucks?! This guy just wants to take advantage of people who havent caught onto him yet. His apps arent worth FREE, much less actual money...you couldnt pay me enough to download anything from him. It IS NOT the right of ANY developer to flood the market with apps of this nature. If you wanna make a slideshow and put it out on the market thats fine...if you worked harder on it than most, then charge a dollar for it...thats fine, too... But dont put out the same damn app 16 times, only with the sounds and images changed, and expect that you have the right to charge $5 bucks apiece again and again and again for the same lame crap.
i like this idea, possible features:
o a root/dev component where devs can post beta releases of apps for root phones to be tested and used by advanced g1 users without it being buried, which tends to happen in the android market.
o a tagging feature for apps in addition to categories for easier searching.
o maybe in addition to apps, this can be a place to download roms and stuff.
o a separate widget category or maybe have a section for categorized apps and a section for categorized widgets.
as far as actual implementation you can do it a couple of ways:
1)an actual market app, like the android market
2)maybe easier to pull off initially, a well organized, mobile ready website
3)i personally think a widget component would be cool, paired with either one of the earlier options. the widget could give people recently added apps, updates on existing apps or in preferred categories/tags, and people can use the widget to navigate to a website or a corresponding app.
i think this would be a good opportunity for a community of experienced users like xda to pool a lot of knowledge and resources together in one place.
anyways, i'm looking forward to what you guys come up with.
I have no need for a new market, per se.
what I'd love to see is the ability for anyone and everyone to host their own apk repository and a more robust package management system on the device
apt, yum, emerge, port, w/e
anyone working on something like that? can I help?
i like the idea there are a few devs that i would like to the ability to block seeing apps from, Khalid Shaik, and RSD themes, to name two. both "Developers" are just using the market as a money making scheme, and it's rdiculous to put out ten apps a day to try and milk money from unsespecting souls. i spoke to RSD personally about slowing down his output of "apps"(mostly ahome and openhome themes) and he said that he would do no such thing because he makes $1500 a month. he then offered to make me a theme and i was downright insulted. i like the idea the android market has of being able to email the devs whenever we look at the app, it makes asking question a whole lot easier.
and possibly a way to mark certain apps as spam if the dev is posting ten soundboard/fart apps a day and with enough users posting the dev/apps as spam the dev can recieve one warning to slow down on releasing his/her apps or be taken off the market
bmfc187 said:
Im kinda on the fence on the "blacklist" issue. On one hand, it is the right of the developer to develop applications for this platform, and to release his/her work on the market to be used/previewed/rated/commented/purchased by other users. It is also their right to be paid for their efforts. On the other hand, I certainly agree that assaulting the market with 10 different $5 slideshows a day, is verging on MALICIOUS. Seriously, ive never even DOWNLOADED anything put out by Khalid Shaik, yet im sure that none of these slideshows take more than 15 or 20 minutes to produce, i bet not even that long. And $4.99?!?!?!?!?!?!?! SINCE WHEN is a slideshow about Swine Flu worth $5 bucks?! This guy just wants to take advantage of people who havent caught onto him yet. His apps arent worth FREE, much less actual money...you couldnt pay me enough to download anything from him. It IS NOT the right of ANY developer to flood the market with apps of this nature. If you wanna make a slideshow and put it out on the market thats fine...if you worked harder on it than most, then charge a dollar for it...thats fine, too... But dont put out the same damn app 16 times, only with the sounds and images changed, and expect that you have the right to charge $5 bucks apiece again and again and again for the same lame crap.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
TruLuvNvrDies said:
i like this idea, possible features:
o a root/dev component where devs can post beta releases of apps for root phones to be tested and used by advanced g1 users without it being buried, which tends to happen in the android market.
o a tagging feature for apps in addition to categories for easier searching.
o maybe in addition to apps, this can be a place to download roms and stuff.
o a separate widget category or maybe have a section for categorized apps and a section for categorized widgets.
as far as actual implementation you can do it a couple of ways:
1)an actual market app, like the android market
2)maybe easier to pull off initially, a well organized, mobile ready website
3)i personally think a widget component would be cool, paired with either one of the earlier options. the widget could give people recently added apps, updates on existing apps or in preferred categories/tags, and people can use the widget to navigate to a website or a corresponding app.
i think this would be a good opportunity for a community of experienced users like xda to pool a lot of knowledge and resources together in one place.
anyways, i'm looking forward to what you guys come up with.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
tubaking182 said:
i like the idea there are a few devs that i would like to the ability to block seeing apps from, Khalid Shaik, and RSD themes, to name two. both "Developers" are just using the market as a money making scheme, and it's rdiculous to put out ten apps a day to try and milk money from unsespecting souls. i spoke to RSD personally about slowing down his output of "apps"(mostly ahome and openhome themes) and he said that he would do no such thing because he makes $1500 a month. he then offered to make me a theme and i was downright insulted. i like the idea the android market has of being able to email the devs whenever we look at the app, it makes asking question a whole lot easier.
and possibly a way to mark certain apps as spam if the dev is posting ten soundboard/fart apps a day and with enough users posting the dev/apps as spam the dev can recieve one warning to slow down on releasing his/her apps or be taken off the market
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I totally agree with you guys.
i like the idea there are a few devs that i would like to the ability to block seeing apps from, Khalid Shaik, and RSD themes, to name two. both "Developers" are just using the market as a money making scheme, and it's rdiculous to put out ten apps a day to try and milk money from unsespecting souls. i spoke to RSD personally about slowing down his output of "apps"(mostly ahome and openhome themes) and he said that he would do no such thing because he makes $1500 a month. he then offered to make me a theme and i was downright insulted. i like the idea the android market has of being able to email the devs whenever we look at the app, it makes asking question a whole lot easier.
and possibly a way to mark certain apps as spam if the dev is posting ten soundboard/fart apps a day and with enough users posting the dev/apps as spam the dev can recieve one warning to slow down on releasing his/her apps or be taken off the market
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
1,500 bucks? I don't know why someone like these sound boards ? It's really suck. 1 buck for some sounds which I can get free from internet.
I agree. I would like to see Cydia ported to G1. I have been working on getting Apt running. The part I am not sure of is building a UI for it. This was easier on the iPhone because the apps like cydia were native and not in a vm like on Android.
Thanks for all the support guys....now all we need are some more developers...anyone wanna help us?
possibly available as web developer
I'm not sure where you need more help, phone vs. web development. I may be able to help out in either case though. you can contact me at [my.xda-devs.username]@gmail.com on google talk or by email.
As far as features/requests:
This should be 100% for non paid applications, IMO. I agree with other posters that it only hurts application distribution by adding a new paid app store. Especially because I think t-mobile's 30% is quite reasonable as a distribution cost.
Instead, this app should focus on delivering the type of software that people develop here on xda-devs.
I don't think you need to black list any developers. By only offering free applications through this market, you automatically get rid of most of that spam, and instead promote more sharing. Developers already have a good place to spam crappy applications for money. The purpose here should be for homebrew/expirimental applications and to promote more community hacking.
Keeping this application open source would definitely help with the "for the community by the community" mantra.
Just my two cents..
Best Regards,
Nick
I totally agree with the idea. But I think it would be difficult to implement paid apps because they are updated through the market.
The current state..
The last few days have been difficult. What has become clear now is that the Android Open Source Project is a framework. It’s licensed in such a way so that anyone can take it, modify it to their needs, and redistribute it as they please. Android belongs to everyone. This also means that big companies likes Google, HTC, Motorola, and whomever else can add their own pieces to it and share these pieces under whatever license they choose.
I’ve made lots of changes myself to the AOSP code, and added in code from lots of others. Building a better Droid, right?
The issue that’s raised is the redistribution of Google’s proprietary applications like Maps, GTalk, Market, and YouTube. These are not part of the open source project and are only part of “Google Experience” devices. They are Google’s intellectual property and I intend to respect that. I will no longer be distributing these applications as part of CyanogenMod. But it’s OK. None of the go-fast stuff that I do involves any of this stuff anyway. We need these applications though, because we all rely so heavily on their functionality. I’d love for Google to hand over the keys to the kingdom and let us all have it for free, but that’s not going to happen. And who can blame them?
There are lots of things we can do as end-users and modders, though, without violating anyones rights. Most importantly, we are entitled to back up our software. Since I don’t work with any of these closed source applications directly, what I intend to do is simply ship the next version of CyanogenMod as a “bare bones” ROM. You’ll be able to make calls, MMS, take photos, etc. In order to get our beloved Google sync and applications back, you’ll need to make a backup first. I’m working on an application that will do this for you.
The idea is that you’ll be able to Google-ify your CyanogenMod installation, with the applications and files that shipped on YOUR device already. Or, you can just use the basic ROM if you want. It will be perfectly functional if you don’t use the Google parts. I will include an alternative app store (SlideMe, or AndAppStore, not decided yet) with the basic ROM so that you can get your applications in case you don’t have a Google Experience device.
I’ll have more updates soon as I get all the code hammered out.
Thanks for all the support thru all of this.
http://www.cyanogenmod.com/home/the-current-state
The stuff Dreams are really made of....
I knew! Where there's a will there's a way! You can't keep a real boss down! Cyanogen I look forward to playing with this new stuff in the works. Rage on brother rage on, I for one honestly didn't want to leave android really, but I will continue to research back-up plans in case Google has anymore monkey wrenches laying around itching to be thrown...Good luck Cyanogen. We all owe you donations...real recognizes real! Dueces
This is great news Thank you!
fkn awesome!
this exactly what i thought and hoped would happen. everyone got in a tizy over nothing. so we have to back up before we flash which is just another way that the basic moder like myself can better understand the phone.
Does this means we need to wipe every time we flash a new rom?
tomvleeuwen said:
What do you guys think of sharing the 4.0.4 version over p2p networks?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Everyone already has it.
Great
This sounds good, there is more than one way to skin a cat. I think they got upset when the new market app was released before they could get it out. They had to do something, but I think it will die down.
don't go there
tomvleeuwen said:
What do you guys think of sharing the 4.0.4 version over p2p networks?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Cyanogen is doing his best to respect Google's legitimate copyrights, so suggesting that XDA get involved in distributing proprietary applications without a license only serves to undermine what is going on here. Mods: please remove.
ei8htohms said:
Cyanogen is doing his best to respect Google's legitimate copyrights, so suggesting that XDA get involved in distributing proprietary applications without a license only serves to undermine what is going on here. Mods: please remove.
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Click to collapse
I posted this in another thread but it would seem to be pertinent to here too:
Loccy said:
Let's face it, strictly speaking, all ROMs are warez.
Personally I'm surprised that it wasn't the Hero devs who got into trouble first, but this was all just a matter of time. I never understood the bizarre fixation that cropped up recently with QuickOffice and everyone going "omfg it's warez can't include it in romz!!!111!1one!". Why QuickOffice and not, say HTC_IME, or Work Email, or any number of other binary blobs that ROM cookers include as a matter of course now that have been "acquired" from non-orthodox source?
The Hero ROMs, let's face it, give people a means of "turning" their old phone into the latest and greatest HTC device. Each stable Hero ROM on the Dream/Magic potentially means a Hero device purchase lost. HTC are being far more hit in the pocket than Google are here - which is why I'm surprised the cease and desist wasn't directed at them.
I do think, however, this site and the people who run it are going to have to pick a side at some point. Either the position is "this is a site for developers, and as long as copyrighted material is not hosted on here in a fashion that would make us liable*, we will not suppress the work of individual devs". Or, their position is "no copyrighted material in any form, be that in the form to links to offsite storage repositories (eg. Rapidshare), or any other method". XDA doesn't *need* to do this in order to ensure the site does not get into legal hot water. I suspect they *might* do it, however, as some kind of misguided moral stance (and in my view the QuickOffice preoccupation was an example of just this). But in my opinion if they choose the latter then XDA is over as a site for realistic Android ROM development (and indeed, Windows Mobile and other OSes, if they apply the same standards across all their boards).
* elaborating on what I mean here - if people attach zips directly to their posts, and those zips are stored on the XDA servers, then XDA as a site is potentially liable. Alternatively, if instead people give a URL or a search string whereby people can find a ROM, but those files are not physically stored on XDA, they are not - any more than Google is liable for the many copyrighted MP3s you can find links to via their search engine.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The bottom line is that if ROM devs decided they were going to respect ALL legitimate copyrights, there'd be no Hero ROMs, no Windows Mobile ROMs, in fact no ROMs apart from barebones AOSP ROMs which do less than a stock ROM.
ei8htohms said:
Mods: please remove.
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Click to collapse
And I'm sorry, that's just ignorant. Just because you don't agree with a sentiment doesn't entitle you to demand the mods remove it. If the mods want to remove it they will (and in my view that would indicate which "side" they were choosing.) Personally, I don't know what it's like elsewhere around the world, but here in the UK one is at least allowed to speak freely, if not necessarily act freely.
kudos to cyanogen!
Loccy said:
If the mods want to remove it they will (and in my view that would indicate which "side" they were choosing.) Personally, I don't know what it's like elsewhere around the world, but here in the UK one is at least allowed to speak freely, if not necessarily act freely.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think common U.S. practice is: if you speak freely, you get called names by people until you either cry or shoot them, thus proving to everyone that your original point is invalid.
But XDA has always had a policy of "if it doesn't get the site admins in trouble, it's probably ok." If memory serves, the site is in the Netherlands, and is subject to EU laws as to copyright, etc. I think that's important to remember when it comes to such things, since the EU laws as to intellectual property are in flux and not quite the same as those in the US or UK.
But the official policy is available in one of the toplevel forums here:
Flar said:
Hi Everybody,
We noticed that there is some confusion when it comes to posting sensitive material on xda-developers.com and mostly about what can and can't be posted.
We would like to clarify our point of view through this post.
Since the start of xda-developers this has always been a site that once in while has some sensitive material online, through the years this site has grown so big it's no longer possible to check every file on our servers or every post on the board, we also feel it wouldn't benefit the community if we did.
However with increased popularity comes an increased amount of legal complaints when sensitive material is found on our servers. Which is the reason why we have been more careful lately. Recently some sensitive material has shown up on the servers and we received legal complaints from companies who have the copyrights for this material, although we all feel this is very interesting and valuable material we cannot risk the future of xda-developers by ignoring the legal requests we receive, therefore this material has been taken offline.
We understand that maintaining the balance between legal and illegal is sometimes confusing and/or difficult but that is unfortunately how it works.
When it comes to posting sensitive material there are a couple suggestions we can make:
- if possible do not post the files on the xda-developers servers.
- use your common sense (if you feel something might not be legal it probably isn't).
- always keep in mind when posting software of any kind, that we will take it offline if there is a legal complaint from the copyright owner.
Warez is in no way accepted and will be removed upon discovery.
I hope this post will serve as a clear and valuable guideline.
Greetz,
Flar
Site admin.
P.s. When you have any questions you can always contact me or one of the moderators.
Last edited by Flar; 17th January 2007 at 10:14 AM..
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Everyone has an opinion, and they have, or should have, the right to decide for themselves what is correct. I am on the side of Cyanogen. I do not think what he did caused any harm or loss of revenue to anyone. We can not always have our way though, and I think that's the case here. I don't know him, but I do think he's smart enough to keep doing what he is EXTREMELY good at without putting himself in a bad position. It's just a stumbling block to get past. We are puting a lot of effort into pointing fingers and throwing around ideas, but if we placed this much energy into finding a fuctional solution, we might get past it a whole buch faster. A good army fights the war, not the battle.
Warez is in no way accepted and will be removed upon discovery.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
But every single ROM on here is warez to some extent or another! Certainly (just for example, I'm not picking on anyone specific here) Drizzy doesn't own the IPR for the contents of his Hero ROMs. I'm pretty sure the WinMo ROMs aren't being posted by Microsoft. If the policy is that "warez is in no way accepted and will be removed upon discovery", they're not doing much of a job, are they - every other post is "warez", if you take a strict interpretation.
I suppose I'm saying that "warez is in the eye of the beholder". I fully endorse the attitude "if it doesn't get the site admins in trouble, it's probably ok" - but I can't help thinking that relaxed attitude has been firmed up of late for whatever reason, given the QuickOffice oddness. I'm pretty sure no-one who own the IPR for QuickOffice was ever in touch (although do correct me if I'm wrong), so why the odd fixation recently?
Bottom line: stick to the attitudes and approaches that have made this site what it is, please don't start getting over zealous when there's no reason to.
Honestly did this need another topic though? I mean I'm all for good news like this, but add it on to one of the many topics that are out there. -.- (ready for flaming)
easy now
Loccy said:
The bottom line is that if ROM devs decided they were going to respect ALL legitimate copyrights, there'd be no Hero ROMs, no Windows Mobile ROMs, in fact no ROMs apart from barebones AOSP ROMs which do less than a stock ROM.
And I'm sorry, that's just ignorant. Just because you don't agree with a sentiment doesn't entitle you to demand the mods remove it. If the mods want to remove it they will (and in my view that would indicate which "side" they were choosing.) Personally, I don't know what it's like elsewhere around the world, but here in the UK one is at least allowed to speak freely, if not necessarily act freely.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
First off, I'm not demanding anything. I politely requested that the mods remove a suggestion that clearly seeks to circumvent the policies of XDA: We won't distribute warez. The poster knew the suggestion was specifically aimed at getting around the XDA policy, otherwise there would be no reason for a P2P distribution alternative in the first place.
A key component of intellectual property and copyright laws (at least in the US) is that the holder of the copyright must act to defend the copyright to some reasonable extent (no, I'm not a lawyer and I don't know what this entails exactly). Now that Google has acted to defend their copyrights in these instances, the line is clear. Google apps are paid apps (licensed to the handset manufacturers or service providers) and are not free to distribute without a license. Consequently, there shouldn't be much further debate about the fact that these are warez and are not to be distributed on or through XDA.
I'm not trying to attack anyone (the original poster, ROM devs or certainly yourself), but I am interested in XDA maintaining the high ground here and continuing to operate in a respectful and respectable manner.
Perhaps we should stay on topic?
te5ter said:
Perhaps we should stay on topic?
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Fair point. Maybe we should take the "warez is in the eye of the beholder" debate to this thread. I do actually think it's a fascinating debate, personally. Oh, incidentally, just re-read my earlier post, and want to apologise to ei8htohms - I didn't mean to come off quite so brusque.
First, I'm very happy that there seems to be a workaround that Cyanogen feels comfortable in using.
However, I see it as a band-aid to a much larger problem. Yes, it addresses those few apps that Google specifically mentioned. But there seems to be potential future conflicts that could adversely affect this whole Android community.
What about all the other apps in there? The Camera/Camcorder/Gallery app for instance. The UI? Other HTC bits? And the biggie, the Search component? Does Google also lay claim to unified search, the widget, the particular framework involved in that?
I don't know the answer to that, I'm just asking. So much is left unanswered, I just feel this is only the beginning. For now, I guess it may be enough. But it still leaves so much up in the air.
Now the 2nd major issue: Cyanogen should be commended for taking the high road here and doing his best to adhere to Google's current request. I think we all know that there was never ever any question that no one saw this coming. It came from left field and shocked everyone beyond belief.
But will other rom devs be as diligent as Cyanogen? Will theme developers adhere to this? And with all of these added steps required to get a functioning "Google Experience", consider the flood of newbie questions this forum is about to endure. We all thought "brick" and "hardspl" questions were tedious at best ... prepare yourselves for the onslought of mass confusion. That fun has just begun.
I still believe the burden lies with Google to make this right. I'm not saying they should make their apps open source by any means. I'm just saying that there must be a way for Google to allow the inclusion of their apps (perhaps a different license or maybe some encryption trick that protects the apps from modification <I don't know, I'm not that smart>). Google needs to step up to the plate in this. They also need to save-face and stifle this PR nightmare. Android does not need this, Google does not need this, HTC does not need this, carriers do not need this, Cyanogen does not need this, and users do not need this. Growth of the entire Android project is simply too important. I see this as speed bump. They just made the bump too big and it needs to be shaved down some so everyone can get it over without damaging anything else.
this is great news indeed. can't wait to see what is to come!
May be I'm posting in the wrong section..
The idea is:
We know the developers here are pretty smart people, and we all want our tablet run faster, better, smoother...
How many people will be agree to pay/donate to Xda team to develop a custom fully-functional, tested rom with "support" for us ?!
Let's say 100 ppl pay/donate $10 for custom android 3.0 rom for g-tablet. $1000 usd is reasonable price to have cool rom running, don't you think ?
This would be a cool benefit for the "users" and cool help for developers.
Any ideas?
Im in! I have been thinking of a way to say thanks. And whats better than money?
I have been working on a hand made leather personalized case for roobeet and i lmost have a functional prototype finnished but this would be for all the devs.
No point to it cause the developers here are already working on Android 6.5 (Double butter fudge salty nipples) Rom. No point in them going backwards.
Interesting point of view, Sm0k3d 0uT, still,i would pay for a fully functional rom.
try using the search function to find out why it ain't gonna happen.
it not about the money Honeycomb source is not out yet so there is no way to make a good rom right now. it would be a frankinstein rom and would probalby run like crap
It's not about Honeycomb. It was just and example.
I'm interested in your opinion. Will you pay for a custom build tested rom or not ? And would be nice to hear and answer form a developer, will our "support" help or not
Don't interpret usually getting better bundled apps in a specific roms with needing a specific rom to get better apps. Most roms do a fine job with running on the g-tablet as is. As for the apps, the market it there. The main issue with Android tablets so far it the lack of Tablet-friendly applications. Take angry birds and pulse news reader, they run just as well on a g-tablet foyo based rom as they do on honeycomb. In the end, the version of the OS itself really does not make or break a tablet.
There is room for improving the way we can navigate the OS on an Android tablet, and Honeycomb is a first step to address that and that will eventually be available outside of the xoom.
In the end, if you ask me, I would really prefer to have more tablet apps than a tablet-centric menu system.
I can actually respond, as a modder (I don't really call myself a developer)
I personally wouldn't accept the offer, and I will explain why -- most of us do this for fun and, even though we take the users requests and advise seriously, ultimately it's our ROM, with out own "vision". A perfect example is TNT Lite - I've had some really wacky requests on either extreme, but since I "own" the ROM ultimately I can make the decision on whether something stays or goes.
I do accept general "buy me a beer" donations, but so far no one has taken that as an opportunity to force my hand on a ROM change. Or asked me to give them personal support "above and beyond" like calling them directly (except once, and that person actually didn't donate - he just wanted phone service. Not kidding).
But even if the coffer were high and I was the only one working on it, I would not accept it because post-support is MUCH more difficult than just creating a mod. I really appreciate the power users here who handle a lot of the questions that drop in the site and actually help me to alleviate that support burden. I work in Operations and did customer service for many years, so I know how difficult this can be.
The last issue is that users will never agree on what changes to make. One will want a stock music player, one will want the one he liked on the Archos, and another would want the music player removed because music reminds him of his ex-girlfriend so he's eradicated music from his life. It would just be too stressful and would not be fun anymore. So I appreciate the offer, but I would not participate.
Btw, there's already a big coffer over at notioinkhacks.com to get a HC port working - so far, no one's managed it.
Sm0k3d 0uT said:
try using the search function to find out why it ain't gonna happen.
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You probably meant it for a different reason, but it's actually valid just to gauge the different opinions that the userbase has on certain things that they would want.
I'm sure to whom ever develops the first fully functional HC ROM, that dev will get their donations or at least should get some donations. However, I'm sure none of the devs would be comfortable taking donations promising to build a HC Rom when they know it can't be done at this time. Also, I'm pretty sure as devs they have tried to get a HC Rom ported to our gtablets. Most of these devs live for that type of accomplishment and challenges.
Don't get me wrong, I know your idea is a postive one and I'm all for it. But most of the roms that's are in the development section are already fully functional and all the devs deserve our donations.
Edit: See above. you notice how humble our modders/developers are. They all have high integrity which to me shows that I can trust that if and when HC is available for a custom Rom...they'll get it to us as soon as possible.
roebeet said:
I can actually respond, as a modder (I don't really call myself a developer)
I personally wouldn't accept the offer, and I will explain why -- most of us do this for fun and, even though we take the users requests and advise seriously, ultimately it's our ROM, with out own "vision". A perfect example is TNT Lite - I've had some really wacky requests on either extreme, but since I "own" the ROM ultimately I can make the decision on whether something stays or goes.
I do accept general "buy me a beer" donations, but so far no one has taken that as an opportunity to force my hand on a ROM change. Or asked me to give them personal support "above and beyond" like calling them directly (except once, and that person actually didn't donate - he just wanted phone service. Not kidding).
But even if the coffer were high and I was the only one working on it, I would not accept it because post-support is MUCH more difficult than just creating a mod. I really appreciate the power users here who handle a lot of the questions that drop in the site and actually help me to alleviate that support burden. I work in Operations and did customer service for many years, so I know how difficult this can be.
The last issue is that users will never agree on what changes to make. One will want a stock music player, one will want the one he liked on the Archos, and another would want the music player removed because music reminds him of his ex-girlfriend so he's eradicated music from his life. It would just be too stressful and would not be fun anymore. So I appreciate the offer, but I would not participate.
Btw, there's already a big coffer over at notioinkhacks.com to get a HC port working - so far, no one's managed it.
You probably meant it for a different reason, but it's actually valid just to gauge the different opinions that the userbase has on certain things that they would want.
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First of all - Thanks for this answer.
But I guess my question was not "clear"
I understand and agree with all points you've pointed.
Few other points:
1. You do this for fun, but we use your project not only for fun.
2. Your "fun" requires time. time = money.
3. Your rom is much better than the one that comes with the tablet
4. Without making money of it - you'll not be able to spend more time on it and make it better.
etc etc..
support: I'm not talking about customer support, taking calls and mails. We'r talking about questions like "what can i do if my tablet doesn't turn on. How to do recovery, etc..", questions you already answered posted in one single topic.
Still gonna be the same: There is a custom built rom, with pre-installed applications, FULLY functional for your tablet (can be with user requested apps if you find them useful) with latest drivers. Who doesn't like it - you're free to install the original that comes with the tablet.
Basically the idea is: give support to the developers (and yes, you are) with money, so they can spend more time on rom's, that we all are using. Make them better (anything get's better with more time spent on it) What do you think?
Like Roebeet said devs do this for fun. But like we did on the mt4g boards to start up development I would gladly put money towards a pot to buy a GTab for more great devs to come from other devices. you can never have enough devs and different flavors of roms.
On a side not I would love to see a group of devs create there own rom kinda like the MIUI team did they went completely outside the box. I dont mean I would want MIUI on my Gtab but a completely fresh idea, not just a port.
truthkillszz said:
On a side not I would love to see a group of devs create there own rom kinda like the MIUI team did they went completely outside the box. I dont mean I would want MIUI on my Gtab but a completely fresh idea, not just a port.
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Our thoughts converge. I already spoke once about it
ok well, Just inviting few beers to roebeet for Tnt Lite Thanks !
I just need to vent. I'm a fairly active developer for the android platform. I've created a number of kernel patches and applications that I have released at no charge to the community for about 10 or so devices.
All this I do in my "spare time", which I have very little of because I am a full time professional student who takes on 32 credit hour semesters.
Recently, since my 1994 geo prizm is literally falling apart and I was hoping to scrounge together a little bit of money to get a new car so I don't end up stranded on my way to class, I decided to release a paid application. Fastcharge / Force AC toggle which allows you to toggle on and off the force AC feature. A feature which I have personally implemented and released source patches for on a number of devices.
Not only in every thread where I released the patch on a device did I write up how to toggle the feature through the command line, but I also stated that I also implemented a toggle into my completely free application that you can also download from the market, IncrediControl.
In good faith and knowing how annoying licensing is, I elected to not include licensing in my application. This is a huge regret.
Within a couple days of releasing the application to the market I googled it to see if anyone was talking about it. One of the first links was to a piracy site where a user was requesting the widget, to which another user obliged and posted the apk to a filesharing site. Doing something I never though I would have to do, I filed a DMCA takedown request, which was answered quickly and the app was taken down. Monitoring the thread, every single time a link gets taken down, another user requests the app and the original user reuploads it, most recently to 11 different sites.
So now, after filing dozens of takedown requests. This user has decided to unzip my apk, change out the artwork, and now is going around releasing it as his own work.
Really, all this to avoid paying $1.50 (only ~$1 of it actually going to me) to an individual whose yearly income is low enough that he doesn't have to file taxes?
This disgusts me.
This is even worse than the 50% "order cancellation rate" that the widget has. I'm not stupid, I know exactly what users are doing, but yet initially I was willing to ignore it. But this has gone too far.
What is even the point of pissing off a developer so much that he is considering saying screw the platform all together? It doesn't even make sense. We, the developers improve your devices, generally at little or no cost, and this is how we're repaid. With ~50% of current users of the application having pirated it. To avoid paying just over $1.
Now before someone even counters with the "my area doesn't support paid applications" argument I've actually gladly GIVEN the widget away to a number of users who casually mentioned in the release threads that they couldn't download it for this reason. Not to mention, everyone knows there are apps that unlock the market in these areas to be able to purchase apps.
How much more generous can a developer be than to provide source code patches for a feature, provide information on how to toggle the feature, provide a COMPLETELY FREE way to toggle the feature, and then charge a measly $1.50 for a secondary, slightly more convenient way to toggle.
Yet he's repaid like this .
Of course, this must suck for a developer like you. Unfortunately, it seems to happen more and more often, and all I can really say is:
I would gladly pay a few bucks for an application like IC or BootManager. That BootManager seemed really interesting, but we can't buy apps from the Play Store without CC (and as a 16-year old, I don't have one). I asked the developer if he accepted Paypal, but he didn't.
Don't get me wrong, and this is not an attack to you personally: developers, if you made something really nice, and people will like it, 70% of the people will gladly pay for it, just make sure you allow them to.
Chaosz-X said:
70% of the people will gladly pay for it, just make sure you allow them to.
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I honestly thought this was the case. It's really not. The problem is much worse than that. If 70% of users in the root community paid for apps it would be astonishing. Its made pretty clear by the number of users who download the app, back it up and then cancel the order.
If a 16 year old kid had made me that offer, the e-mail reply I sent would have the apk attached.
Well, that is a real flaw of Android: tweakability is really impressing, but these things make it really difficult to earn some money as a developer.
We have been thinking about anti-piracy measures as well, with stuff such as authentication with a server, and locking down the code and verifying integrity of APKs and stuff to make sure it's really hard to mess with the code, but it's just sad that there's a need for these measures..
The trouble is everything has piracy right from movies to game consoles through to mobiles and music.
I mean the iPhones appstore would be a hell of a lot bigger if there was no jailbreaking and installous.
Every platform has been cracked so you'll get it regardless of what you develop for.
Sent from my HTC Desire using XDA
I think you know you just needed to vent but can I change your picture.
There are some people in this world who just don't buy the idea of an idea as property. That's not compatible with this business model. That's the first problem.
The next problem is that
there's a million and one apps out there and which one are we going to choose? Where does it start, where does it end? We all have our limits. What's yours?
For me, the app has to be something very unique and possible generate me cash. For example something I use every day at work. If it's something that the phone should do anyway I tend to skip it and save the $1 for the next phone that does it out of the box. Your app is a great thing, but there's many utility apps out there. It just doesn't fall into the kind of thing I'd cave my strict budgeting for. There are people here with a 1000 apps installed and you expect them to pay $1000 in this sense.
Another way would be having utility in the cloud and then the app is free. Another one of course, advertising.
The difference with both of these is we don't need to risk a credit card with the market. That's the main reason I personally haven't bought many apps and I'd imagine it's a problem for minors too.
The very community that allowed us to create the app fails to pay for it's products is like life itself.
I'd say make something for the iphone instead because there's more profit there but that would never have been possible, see what I'm saying? That's the 3rd problem.
So you've got 3 problems there all converging into one big push towards piracy. But remember, can your app assure security that the pirated version cannot for example? This is how one has to think.
In short,
you can't do something and hope to make a bit from it on the side. You got to go out from the start and get the money aspect central from the start. I mean, that's business and of course that's exactly what the android community works hard to free us from.
Still, summarising those 3 points for suggestion:
- offer something free things can't (i.e. security, brand etc) For example, I never run pirated stuff for fear of insecurity on my data whereas I'll try out software that way on an old PC
- can always put a service in the cloud aka the javascript trap
- iphone is there if you want...
- needs to "the one app" a certain person would pay for, not something everyone likes
Also just to make that point again, if one does not believe in property then inconveniently there is no moral crime here. I suggest learn to live with this and go with the flow
I hope google sells PlayStore cards (like itunes cards) that allows user to buy apps, music, movies, books without a credit card. I really want to buy some amazing apps but i dont have a credit card so i just use free apps. I think that if u cant buy an app that cant be a reason to piracy or sidedownload that app.
jago25_98 said:
For me, the app has to be something very unique and possible generate me cash. For example something I use every day at work. If it's something that the phone should do anyway I tend to skip it and save the $1 for the next phone that does it out of the box. Your app is a great thing, but there's many utility apps out there. It just doesn't fall into the kind of thing I'd cave my strict budgeting for. There are people here with a 1000 apps installed and you expect them to pay $1000 in this sense.
Another way would be having utility in the cloud and then the app is free. Another one of course, advertising.
The difference with both of these is we don't need to risk a credit card with the market. That's the main reason I personally haven't bought many apps and I'd imagine it's a problem for minors too.
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The feature is 100% unique and so is the widget. Not to mention, if you didn't want to pay the $1, I provided a free way to toggle the feature in the utility app. The point is, that there is nothing forcing people to pay for the widget to use the feature. But instead of using the free option provided, they not only pirate the paid app, but edit the artwork and release it for free as their own. It defies logic.
Also, ad based apps don't work with the rooted community. I learned that early on. Myfree utility app is ad supported. With over 40,000 installs you would think it would make even a dollar a day. Nope, makes nearly nothing. That's when I realized that the same niche I was marketing to are the same people who block ads. Even if someone didn't want to block ads, they can't install a single ROM that doesn't include an ad blocking hosts file out of the box.
chad0989 said:
[...] How much more generous can a developer be than to provide source code patches for a feature, provide information on how to toggle the feature, provide a COMPLETELY FREE way to toggle the feature, and then charge a measly $1.50 for a secondary, slightly more convenient way to toggle.
Yet he's repaid like this .
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Be sure you're looking at all sides. Yes, you're in a losing war with guys intent on pirating your app. You can't stop them, and well, you goofed on the licensing, so someone will no doubt release the clone.
First of all, don't do the Big Media thing and assume that everybody that pirates your app would have paid for it if it hadn't been available. A lot of folks collect, or just try something once. You'll only work yourself into a funk thinking about all that money you "would" have if only they hadn't been able to pirate it. They wouldn't have. At least not all of them.
More importantly, be aware that placing something out there with value does reach folks that otherwise would have no idea of you or your plight. More than once, I've purchased an app that I don't really need, but found clever and cheap enough I can buy it without thinking about the investment. I've spent more on Android software at $1-15 over the last year than I did over the last 25+ at $30-100 a pop. I've only refunded an app once, by accident.
Finally, be up front about your situation. A guy trying to make do does influence my impulse buying. So does his reputation. If you're doing a lot, be sure that's clear on your app page, and let us know clearly you're the guy that also brought us whatever.
I am curious, though: How much did you actually bring in?
Chad- thanks for telling your story, I agree that you have every right to be disappointed. Especially the buying and refunding, that to me send almost worse because you can't stop dedicated pirating, but I would have hoped the rest would have bought the app.
It's easy to forget the human side of development, so thanks for sharing your side.
Jesus christ Chad. This is f$%&*#@ ridiculous. Probably the best and most generous kernel dev I have ever come into contact with, and people are cheating you out of 1.50. Please don't abandon Android. I need kernels when I get my rezound! but in all seriousness, warez needs to stop.
Sent from my ADR6400L
Yep. Sucks. After getting serious about android , which wasn't too far in, joining with a nexus one and seeing all the free HARD work we get, I definitely try buying stuff I use. If I can't pay sometimes I will see if dev does something else I can donate to. Its an issue I've thought about and part of it really boils down to how sorry people are in general. They want free and cheap. $1 is laughable even when it can be easily had for free. You really should market yourself a bit even though you don't want to. And people should really put a complimentary $5 or so budget a month or more and try to support devs. Maybe if you have something he gave free but has an app you won't use for a buck, buy the dollar app and uninstall after the 15 minute period. Or throw him a 5 through PayPal or something. Its simple really. If these devs don't have to resort to ramen and water they keep dev'ing especially for the community supporting him or her. And if they're eating vegetables and have plenty of red bull money it gives them wings. Otoh, the devs that make us pay to reinstall an app after we bought it on another or lost our phone suck. Balls. Won't buys theirs anymore.
teach a man to fish, you feed him for life. teach a man to fastboot, and you create competency. and less threads on xda.
Maybe you should implement a system like some developers do where you download the app for free with a time limited trail, then they would go to another website to pay for the app to unlock it, and the unlock codes would be unique for every user which would minimize piracy.
Sent from my GT-N7000 Samsung Galaxy Note "Go big or go home" using XDA app
rafa6571 said:
I hope google sells PlayStore cards (like itunes cards) that allows user to buy apps, music, movies, books without a credit card. I really want to buy some amazing apps but i dont have a credit card so i just use free apps. I think that if u cant buy an app that cant be a reason to piracy or sidedownload that app.
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In the Netherlands we have prepaid Visa card.
Works well.
Maybe you google something similar in your own country.
(3V prepaid Visa cards)
That does suck but if someone wants to pirate an app even licencing doesn't stop them as there is an app that apparently patches licence checks.
It is so easy for even a non root and new user to find cracked apps, I have seen links on here and even on peoples facebook sites, it's got to the point where people can just browse a webpage and click a link to get the cracked version of an app.
Unfortunately if someone wants to crack it they can. Unless you could implement your own security check somehow, something obfuscated in the code, licencing is the only alternative as it would stop people using backed up cancelled versions at least.
Unfortunately it seems a lot of people just don't want to pay for apps.
Dave
Sent from my LG P920 using Tapatalk
also have to look at both sides. some people just refuse to pay for **** whatever it is, or get it as cheaply as they can. being android apps, the free route is how they're going to go. but the other side, you hsould be grateful for all the people that do pay. they're the ones helping keeping google, open source, android and everything in between chugging along. open source is the future and you can tell every corporation i said that. and thanks for you your work even though i've never used it.
jago25_98 said:
...
Also just to make that point again, if one does not believe in property then inconveniently there is no moral crime here. I suggest learn to live with this and go with the flow
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There is plenty to disagree with in your post as it all seems like an attempt at rationalizing ways to get around the system. This last statement is a ridiculous attempt at summarizing why stealing is OK. Your morals don't define the crime, the law does. Stealing property, physical or intellectual, is not legal and not right regardless of your morals or lack of.
Chad,
I am sorry to hear of your products' abuse. I used your kernels all the time on my Incredible devices and bought IncrediControl to support development. I have purchased many applications just to support development and believe that is the way to get high quality applications.
Piracy is just so damn easy on Android. I know ppl that are doing it who I wouldn't even expect to be doing such a thing. This guy I know love android only because he can get everything free by just googling the apk.
awww thats sad i feel really bad for you!
I've used pre paid visa debit cards to buy apps. You can find them in Any money shop like Cheque cashing places for example. You can even just stick a dicky diver (£5) on them. Perfect for situations like this
Sent from my GT-I9100 using xda premium