Carrier IQ Admits Holding ‘Treasure Trove’ of Consumer Data

Carrier IQ Admits Holding ‘Treasure Trove’ of Consumer Data - General Topics

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/20...+wired/index+(Wired:+Index+3+(Top+Stories+2))
WTF? How is this legal? I think most smartphone users DON'T know about this. How do they get their spy-crap on our phones anyway? Is there an antispyware to stop this?
Read the article, what a pathetic way to try to convince people that spying on them is harmless. No idiots here, fool.

i smell class action law suit. Hopefully the payments will go out to Trev, XDA, and the EFF

Yeah every day seems to get worse for them

I can see how the technology could be useful.
But there are too many questions unanswered.
1. the privacy of the end user.
2. the costs involved for the end user.
3. the reasons for it being hidden from the end user.

Exactly Omega, exactly right!
P.s. for anyone who hasn't read the full article, few features;
1 Microsoft says this never has or will be on Windows Phone 7
2 Apple says this has been on many devices up until iOS5
3 No word on Android (oh ****)
4 This is done through the carriers. They usually add this after it's manufactured. So this is the 'extra layer' they add on. I suppose that means once we put on Cyanogen, that stuff is gone - because nothing from those guys remains.
5. They said this is mostly in the US...the US carriers then. They mentioned 3 big ones in the article, I think two of them were T Mobile and Verizon.
We know that almost every device is watching us, but the stuff that spyware does is incredible...

So far can only find this on yank carrier branded devices. Maybe something to do with the Patriot Act, the grubberment wanting to know what you be doing on your phones.

Yes, the government were mentioned, as one of the main parties despite the carriers wanting that info.
Separately, I stumbled upon a company which says it sells tech. subverting software to governments which gets through devices like Blackberry. So all those BB users in the Arab world are not getting private communication, even if they're paying for it and believing it.

if anyone is interested, I posted a thread in General as well to go after them. The lawyer said the more people we can get signed up the greater attention it will get. Help out and try and make a difference.

illuminati guys the government is spying on us to try and take over the world. Why do you think in the US b/c they are the government with the most power.
Sent from my HTC Glacier using Tapatalk

Please continue discussion here

Related

Droid X actually self-destructs if you try to mod it

Well, I might have recommended a Droid X for big-phone-lovin’ fandroids out there… but now that I’ve read about Motorola’s insane eFuse tampering-countermeasure system, I’m going to have to give this one a big fat DON’T BUY on principle. I won’t restate all my reasons for supporting the modding, hacking, jailbreaking, and so on of your legally-owned products here — if you’re interested in a user’s manifesto, read this — but suffice it to say that deliberately bricking a phone if the user fiddles with it does not fall under the “reasonable” category of precautions taken by manufacturers.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Read more
.............

Not trying to stop the hate train here but read this:
(This was the response they gave to Engadget.)
"Motorola's primary focus is the security of our end users and protection of their data, while also meeting carrier, partner and legal requirements. The Droid X and a majority of Android consumer devices on the market today have a secured bootloader. In reference specifically to eFuse, the technology is not loaded with the purpose of preventing a consumer device from functioning, but rather ensuring for the user that the device only runs on updated and tested versions of software. If a device attempts to boot with unapproved software, it will go into recovery mode, and can re-boot once approved software is re-installed. Checking for a valid software configuration is a common practice within the industry to protect the user against potential malicious software threats. Motorola has been a long time advocate of open platforms and provides a number of resources to developers to foster the ecosystem including tools and access to devices via MOTODEV "
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It will still be hard to crack, but the phone will not be rendered useless by those evil people at Motorola

I think a much better question is: SHOULD it be cracked? Should our community spend money on a phone specifically designed to screw with us? By Motorola's own words, they suggest going with another manufacturer if you want to do modding, flashing, etc. So now I should spend my money and time engaging in the very fight we laugh at iPhone users over?
No. I love my MotoDroid, but given the B.S. coming out of Motorola's camp, my original Droid will be my last Motorola phone.
Screw you Moto, fall back into the irrelevance that *WE* saved you from.

And they say its to stop users running the wrong code? So? Surley any that are sent back should be diagnosable to Motorola that they have been hit with unofficial code and just sent back to the user as "broken by user".
I don't understand the argument they give .....

I also am going to be boycotting Motorola for this flagrant act of defiance towards its customer base. This does not just fall on Motorolas shoulders. We all know this has a hidden stench of Verizon behind it. No, we can not prove it. But old dogs play old tricks. So, to any company that thinks they can control its consumer base with this crap you will not win this.
This is the kind of stuff that the government likes to see. It gives them a study point on how many people will actually lie down and die on such a small matter. Because, if you can't fight aginst the small stuff. Then the government will know that it will most likely get away with the bigger things. This may seem like a streach to some. But if you look at the correlation between government and business entities. That also government also is. They try to play the same tricks. Fact of the matter is. The government works for us. We vote for them and then pay them to do that job and we let them know we want something and if they do not deliver we vote them out. Well, corporations are a little like this. We vote with our wallets and the forums. And this whole thing that the Droid X sold out the first day. Well that is actually speculation. They may have sold out of the 45 phones sent to each Verizon store. Yet some still have them. This is nothing more than a ploy to discourage those of us who fight. Again it may be me making a streach on this. And maybe not. But look at it as a moral builder to the Modding and hacking community. It was built it was programed. It all can and will be reversed. We purchase food. A restaurant has no right to tell us how to eat it. It belongs to us. Same with consumer electronics. And Open source software. Actually even with closed source software also. If we want to mode it then we may do so. We give money for it. If these company's actually made something that worked to its full potential then we would have nothing to complain about. If they want to short us then we have the right to extend the ussage of our stuff. As long as it does not harm another human being. Have at it people.
Shamma Lamma Do From My Moto DROID To You.

goldenu said:
I think a much better question is: SHOULD it be cracked? Should our community spend money on a phone specifically designed to screw with us?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes it should, out of mere principle at this point.

Breakthecycle2 said:
Yes it should, out of mere principle at this point.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You'll just encourage them. Just boycot. Job done.
lol - sorry just noticed, you own one so of course, you want it cracked heheheh

No i-moto droid for me, Oh well makes my toss up between Galaxy S and Desire all the easier.

Android is starting to become a pain in my ass for this reason.

http://www.androidauthority.com/google-issues-statement-regarding-support-for-cdma-devices-50545/
I'm done. More fragmentation.
Sent from my GT-P7310 using Tapatalk

qhinton said:
http://www.androidauthority.com/google-issues-statement-regarding-support-for-cdma-devices-50545/
I'm done. More fragmentation.
Sent from my GT-P7310 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Blame your carrier for using bs CDMA...

lowandbehold is right here. Google didn't create the cdma vs. gsm thing you guys have going on there in the US.

.
Thread moved. Would advise you to read forum rules and post in correct section.
Failure to comply with forum rules will result in an infraction and/or ban depending on severity of rule break.

its not our fault that cdma carriers are so much better than GSM ones here in the US. google shouldn't be doing this to its users, it's not like they're any less good as developers just because they choose the superior network (in some areas.)
Sent from my ICS SCH-i500

sageDieu said:
google shouldn't be doing this to its users
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Did you even read the article? Google can't do anything about it. The carriers have created a situation where a ROM cannot be created without them signing the phone apk. In other words, your verizon nexus already isn't AOSP because some of its core functionality is reliant on custom, locked, carrier-installed crap.
This whole issue could have been avoided by verizon/sprint allowing/providing unsigned cell network apks. I'm quite sure google has asked for this by now. The carriers chose to be dicks about it, they chose to make timely google updates impossible, so they don't get google support. Lay the blame where it belongs.

This is why i hate CDMA.. though they have good signal, they are worst in this case.

The levels of fragmentation are incredible, really. And Google happily continues to turn a blind eye to it all. It's sad, really, because Android has some real potential if it were handled better.
Sent from my SGH-I897

i'm not sure why you guys are *****ing. from a PR perspective, Google did the right thing, hands down. Told you what was going on, and stated that they are going to work on it. just because they didn't say they were going after the carriers in a vicious way you guys are mad. ridiculous...
As another said before, don't blame google, blame the carrier. they are the ones that are messing it up

Always the carriers fault. Sigh.
-Sent from my Rezound-

ridethisbike said:
As another said before, don't blame google, blame the carrier. they are the ones that are messing it up
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's Google's fault that the carriers are in a position to mess it up.
Sent from my SGH-I897

Hmm somehow Apple doesn't have this problem. Updates available day 1 for both GSM and CDMA phones. Google has no choice but to cater to the carriers since Android is Trojan horse for data mining and mobile advertising while iOS puts consumers first. Truth is Google doesn't care about fragmentation, they're focused on volume at all costs. Since Google(and everyone else with half a brain) are well aware that no single Android phone will come close to iPhone sales they need to get as many manufacturers on board as possible, which necessitates letting carriers run the show. Great for Google since they get to sell your personal data to advertisers, but sucks for the consumer.

alex2792 said:
Google has no choice but to cater to the carriers
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, not exactly. They're making the decision to give the power to carriers rather than give it to consumers like Apple and Microsoft do. They could choose otherwise, but they really don't care about you and me.

My two cents tells me Google can fix a lot of issues that Android has by, closing it, not making it Open Source. Then there would be an even bigger cry out towards Google. By closing Android, Google can control every aspect of Android, as they see fit, forcing OEMs to adhere to Google's strict guidelines and policies. That is not what Google had envisioned for the Android OS. Instead Google gave OEM's and Carriers the infrastructure,sources, and starting point to create their own vision.
Giving these Companies free rein to create, ultimately Google gets what they wanted, more Google searches (form devices), creating more revenue for Google. So you might say that Android was not created for the consumer, as much as another revenue stream. Google just needs to keep Android appealing enough to the consumers, and allow OEMs and Carriers to do the rest. I'm surprised that the carriers don't provide Google with the ability to sign the .apks themselves, that would take the responsibility away from the Carriers, and solely on Google's shoulders.
Just thinking out loud hear.

sageDieu said:
its not our fault that cdma carriers are so much better than GSM ones here in the US. google shouldn't be doing this to its users, it's not like they're any less good as developers just because they choose the superior network (in some areas.)
Sent from my ICS SCH-i500
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
^This
Not all of us live in an area where we are free to choose between GSM and CDMA. I live in a rural area where At&t reception can be spotty, T-mobile and Sprint are almost non-existent and Verizon gets a signal pretty much everywhere.

google confirmed with the verge that it will push updates to verizon galaxy nexus! ... please don't jump to conclusions.

alex2792 said:
Hmm somehow Apple doesn't have this problem. Updates available day 1 for both GSM and CDMA phones. Google has no choice but to cater to the carriers since Android is Trojan horse for data mining and mobile advertising while iOS puts consumers first. Truth is Google doesn't care about fragmentation, they're focused on volume at all costs. Since Google(and everyone else with half a brain) are well aware that no single Android phone will come close to iPhone sales they need to get as many manufacturers on board as possible, which necessitates letting carriers run the show. Great for Google since they get to sell your personal data to advertisers, but sucks for the consumer.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Android is not a trojan horse, seriously most of your comments on android seem very negative and often just apple rhetoric.
Android has to run on lots of phones so its hard to unify that whereas iphone is just one. Very easy to update one phone model whose only difference is carrier type as opposed to thousands of different ones.
Dave
Sent from my LG P920 using Tapatalk

The only way to fix this fragmentation is for google to move to a more apple like approach to selling phones. If they locked down android to where manufacturers had to meet certain specs before they could use android or had to follow certain rules, then there would ultimately be less choice for the consumers. I think what makes android great is the wide range of options we all have, even if that means we have to wait a while for the carriers to upgrade us to the newest OS. We're all aware that when we buy these phones they have a chance of lagging behind the "newest and greatest thing". Just take Android for what it is, a diverse platform that is very fragmented, because thats not going to change.

mistermentality said:
Android is not a trojan horse, seriously most of your comments on android seem very negative and often just apple rhetoric.
Android has to run on lots of phones so its hard to unify that whereas iphone is just one. Very easy to update one phone model whose only difference is carrier type as opposed to thousands of different ones.
Dave
Sent from my LG P920 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So if Android's number one goal isn't enabling Google to push "personalized" ads then what is it? I'm negative about Android because Google places carrier interests ahead of the consumer resulting in shoddy user experience. Apple isn't perfect and their propensity to omit seemingly basic features does annoy me at times,but even with that said the iPhone offers a far more pleasurable experience. When I use an Apple product I can see that they really put a lot of thought into creating a first rate experience(which is why they have a ridiculous retention rate) while Android OEMs are just trying to push something out the door. For example used the Galaxy Nexus for a few weeks and I've encountered a ton of issues with reception,random data drop outs and abysmal battery life even with 4G turned off, which simply don't exist on the iPhone. I'm not an Apple fanatic, just someone who enjoys solid, reliable products that "just work" without me needing to spend hours tweaking ****.

wrong forum..

Verizon / Samsung Corporate Contact Log

Updated 09/6/12 http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=31190482&postcount=81
This is a combined log of my attempt to get answers from Verizon and Samsung regarding the encrypted bootloader. I currently have a ticket with level III tech support at Samsung. It took a huge dog and pony show to get this far and I have had several forum members contact me asking to pass along info and ask questions when I finally get a hold of the right people.
I posted most of this in another thread, but it not where it should have been so I am moving it for a mod so we can keep that other development thread clean. Its 8am EST and Samsung Level III should be open in three hours as they are not staffed 24/7 like Level II/I.
For the record Samsungs Tech Support phone number is 800-726-7864
Just remember the rep you talk to regardless of what their position in the company is had no say in the encrypting of the bootloader. Its not their fault Verizon screwed us, please keep that in mind if you call. Using 5c technical words will get you past Level I but level II seemed to be on point. It took some manipulative games to get the guy to admit there was even a level III department; at first he told me level II was the highest I could go in tech support. Will update with more info when I have something.
I am also considering contacting the firm that handled the Motorola V710 lawsuit against Verizon years ago. We won that one and anyone who wanted got to trade in their phone and accessories for a full refund, no ETF, and if they wanted could also get a new device w/o extending their contract. I hate lawyers and would rather cut off my pinky finger then deal with them but it may be the only option in the end. Its like Verizon delivered us cake, then shot our dog and walked away. So mentally exhausted dealing with this crap.
Lastly, I was able to get a hold of Verizon corporate and had a low level executive call me back. This was before the device was released and we knew the bootloader was encrypted. She told me to save her number, and I am glad I did because once we found out about the lockdown I called her back and left VM. Should hear back from her Monday.
Verizon's Corporate Contact Info.
Verizon Corporate Office Headquarters:
140 West Street
New York, NY 10007
Corporate Phone Number: 1-212-395-1000
Corporate Fax Number: 1-212-571-1897
Original Post:
Ok, just an update. Level III Samsung tech support is not 24/7 like Level II/I. I have a ticket in the system regarding the issue and its been forwarded to Level III.
They will be in tomorrow (Saturday) from 8am (PST) to 7pm (PST) and I have to call back to get a hold of someone in the Level III department. I will keep dragging this up the chain of command till I can get some answers. Level II once again confirmed what we already know, Verizon did mess with the phone. Level II said don't bother with Fastboot because were not getting in that way. I don't know if he was lying but he seemed to know exactly what I was talking about when I mentioned the odin/fastboot switch.
One more thing to note, I am not sure I believe him but he said that they sent the phones to Verizon, and its Verizon that did the messing around not Samsung. I find it hard to believe Verizon was able to do this without Samsung support.
I don't have high hopes of getting anything that will be able to help us out of Level III but I will try. They have also lodged a my customer complaint and supposedly I am going to be getting a call back from someone from their corporate office in consumer relations.
I wish I could help more on the technical side but my experience only takes me to the point where everyone else has gotten with fastboot. I am however quite the people person when it comes to making noise with corporations and will keep up the good fight with Verizon / Samsung Corporate.
If there is anything specific you want me to ask Level III send me a PM by tomorrow morning and I will address it with them when I call. I know enough that I should be able to at least hold a conversation with them on the subject but more ammo would be great. I would also be willing to conference call with a repeatable dev/mod when I call them so that you don't have to jump through the two hours of crap I just did to get this escalated.
Post 2: (A reply to a forum member asking for an update)
I asked them if there is a reason I can't get into fastboot and the guy said because Verizon has locked down the device. I asked him "how" and "why" but he was unable to provide me with an answer to both questions. He then referred me to Level III as he said they were the ones who could discuss how it was done. I asked him if there was a way around it through odin using .ops he went silent for a while and said he had no information to provide on the subject and just reiterated that Verizon has made changes to the device software and I would have to refer to them regarding those changes.
With regard to the "why" question he simply said that Samsung could not comment on carrier practices only that Verizon requested the lockdown and that the phones were sent to them first to have it applied. He made it sound like Samsung told them to go take a flying leap and Verizon went ahead and did it anyway. Again, were talking about a rep here so take it with a grain of salt.
I talked about the FCC's Block C agreement regarding carriers not locking devices but the rep said he did not have a comment on the subject as he was just tech support. Block C is probably the only legal course of action we have but despite the FCC saying they were going to enforce the rule, we all know how the FCC could give a crap.
I am going to flat out ask Level III to do the right thing and leak a file for us to fix the issue. I may be nuts but I am not delusional and have no real expectoration they will help. I am however going to do my best to get them to slip something that may help a dev find a solution. If I can get at least a small puzzle piece out of Level III it might be the crack in the dam we need to blow open the floodgates.
07/11/12 Samsung Level III blew me off yesterday as well saying they were still looking into the matter. I called again today and finally received an official reply. Samsung says they have no information exactly what Verizon has done to the phone, they do not know exactly what is and is not signed/encrypted, and they have no further information. I have submitted a complaint to the president of Samsung USA but thats as far as I could go with Samsung. They have closed my case and can not provide further information. I asked if they had an original system image before Verizon gimped the phone and they said "yes but we can not provide that to our customers per carrier agreement."
Lastly I was told that there is going to be a Verizon "Developer Edition" that you can buy directly from Samsung in the coming weeks. This is in "direct response to complaints filed by customers" according to Samsung and will be distributed and supported by Samsung directly. It will cost $600+ and basically be the same phone but w/o an signed/encrypted bootloader.
Off the record information from an unnamed outside source: Verizon is releasing a OTA update to patch the root exploit in the coming days. This OTA will break and prevent re-root as well as try and stop people from using the image off of the "Developer Edition" to mess with the "normal" Verizon Galaxy S3. I don't have specific details; sorry. Do not OTA unless you want to loose root and probably not get it back. Verizon is fk'ing pissed; I mean really pissed that we have root.
From what I am hearing, Verizon's "top %5 data abusers" are all typically rooted/romed. The whole point of locking this phone down was to mess with these unlimited data customers. Verizon started this war; let us end it and make them loath the day they decided to fk with the dev community.
Again, my case Support case has been closed with Samsung. We will get nothing further from them nor any direct help. My case with Verizon corporate is also closed; they said Samsung will offer a Developer model directly and if I wanted that kind of access I needed to talk to them not Verizon.
The lawyers still have not called me back. No shock.
Up until this point I have been angry; now I am pissed. This isn't over; not by a long shot.
Will update when I have more information.
07/17/12
Samsung "Office of the President" -
Phone 877-268-2121
eMail [email protected]
FYI Samsung records phone conversations between the 4th minute and the 18th minute. Anything you say after minute 4 and before minute 18 "MAY" be recorded. I know that sounds like a strange window of recording, but its straight out of the mouth of a sympathetic to the cause tech support rep. Just had a great conversation with a guy, nothing is fixed of course but needless to say, there are people in Samsung that have been hearing rumors that the company is tired of carrier's crap and with in the next few years will be offering all Samsung headsets for a subsidized price, directly through Samsung. There will probably be trade-in specials, loyalty discounts, etc. I can't wait not to buy my devices directly through Verizon! Secondly, as of now (Verizon lies again) anything software related with this phone is coming from, programmed by, and completely influenced by Verizon. Samsung manufacturing does not touch the device or support updates after its in the hands of Verizon. The developer model is not Verizon approved, nor is Verizon happy its going to be sold [from what I am told] however per FCC open network regulations Verizon has to allow the device on the network. Updates for the developer model will be directly from Samsung.
I was able to get the Samsung Apps (store) sideloaded on my device BTW. Verizon requested it be removed which is why its not on the device pre-installed. S-Suggest is NOT the same thing as Samsung Apps. Will Write something up here on XDA later when I get a chance.
07/24/12
The Electronic Frontier Foundation called me back and said they need more info on Block C. I am out of town until next Monday and let them know I would get back to them in a few days. They also are finding a lawyer who will do it pro bono. Looks like this may actually make it to court.

So we have root but we are still locked down unlike all other carriers. Basically this is going to turn into a Droid X situation and for those who know what I am talking about you know how bad this still sucks.
I am tired of this crap guys, and think with the amount of SG3 phones sold in the US and specifically Verizon, this is the time to strike back against all encrypted devices not just the GS3. We have dealt with this garbage long enough and now its time to end nonsense.
Kirtland and Packard, (310) 536-1000, 2361 Rosecrans Ave Ste 450, El Segundo, CA 90245
That's the law firm that won the huge case against Verizon over the Motorola v710 BT lockdown. I have left them a message asking if they will take this case too. In reality this one is going to vastly larger then the Moto case because of the number of users that have this device.
Please call them and let them know on the main VM that you too have been effected by this lockdown, or any lockdown in the US on any carrier. The more people who call the more likely they will take the case. Lots of people calling is how the guys over at Howard Forums were able to get the ball rolling on the v710, so let history repeat itself for the sake of every dev, phone enthusiast, and civil rights advocate.
ROM developers usually work off of donations and by encrypting this and other devices Verizon is stealing from these developers who's livelihood is phone software development. Software developers who want an open platform also have to deal with the hassle that Verizon and other carriers have put them through by locking down devices. If the personal computer was locked down like this when it was first created and sold to people we would never be where we were today technology wise. The crippling of our mobile devices needs to stop, and it needs to stop now.
Its time to take the fight to Verizon and hopefully end the lockdowns once and for all. If the lawfirm takes the case this is going to be winner takes all. This may be our best shot to end device lockdowns in the US once and for all.
I think the push we will make is going to be Block C. Normally Verizon could argue that they locked the device [against the FCC Block C mandate] because of network security. This is going to be hard for them to argue though when every other carrier in the US and internationally has not encrypted the device. It's a long shot, and its going to be up hill, but as far as I see it this is our best chance and the time to strike on this issue is now.
Samsung Level III opens in 30 min. Will update again soon.

Level III is not in on the weekends, so I was just told by the automated message I got when the guy transferred me to that department. ok... Not what they told me yesterday but ok.
So Monday at 8am PST it is, and that's also when Verizon corporate will be calling me back too as the past two calls they have made to me have been the ass crack of dawn. If I time it right I can conference the two in and let them try and point the finger at the other one, to each others faces. No more "That's what the manufacture wanted, go talk to them" vs "That's what the carrier wanted, talk to them" runaround bull****.
Anyway, no updates till Monday then. That gives me time to root.

i'll be the first to say it but thank you
going above and beyond especially considering nobody asked you to do this. great work and i hope it leads to some results

chill145 said:
i'll be the first to say it but thank you
going above and beyond especially considering nobody asked you to do this. great work and i hope it leads to some results
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes thank you 100%, we are all in this together.

Also please file FCC Consumer Complaints against Verizon for potentially violating the openness requirements of the Block C spectrum purchasing agreement.
https://esupport.fcc.gov/ccmsforms/form2000.action?form_type=2000F
http://www.xda-developers.com/android/it-is-illegal-for-verizon-to-lock-some-bootloaders/
It's a long shot, but maybe worth it.

Have filed complaint with FCC and BBB, posted poor review on both Blue and White versons on VZW website, wall post ripping them apart on VZW facebook, poor reviews on every device site that will let me do so that I know of, personal contact with VZW reps filing complaints.
Any other avenues we can take?

Here's what I wrote in my FCC complaint:
The new Samsung Galaxy SIII on Verizon Wireless has a locked and encrypted bootloader, which appears to violate the openness requirements that Verizon agreed to when it purchased Block C, pursuant to § 27.16 (b) of 47 CFR Ch. I (10–1–10 Edition) available here-- http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2010-title47-vol2/pdf/CFR-2010-title47-vol2-sec27-16.pdf
§ 27.16 (e) clearly states "Handset locking prohibited" except under certain circumstances previously delineated. The anti-consumer actions taken by Verizon impinge upon the free of use of devices by consumers, and potentially harms the livelihoods of developers, who may not be able to do their work on the device of their choice.
I would appreciate the FCC investigating and clarifying this situation.
Thank you,

Thinking further about it, with how prominent devices are in today's world, would various news providers not want to run this story as well?
I recommend tipping off any local newspaper and news station you have access to. Lets get this story out there~!

Thalinor said:
So we have root but we are still locked down unlike all other carriers. Basically this is going to turn into a Droid X situation and for those who know what I am talking about you know how bad this still sucks.
I am tired of this crap guys, and think with the amount of SG3 phones sold in the US and specifically Verizon, this is the time to strike back against all encrypted devices not just the GS3. We have dealt with this garbage long enough and now its time to end nonsense.
Kirtland and Packard, (310) 536-1000, 2361 Rosecrans Ave Ste 450, El Segundo, CA 90245
That's the law firm that won the huge case against Verizon over the Motorola v710 BT lockdown. I have left them a message asking if they will take this case too. In reality this one is going to vastly larger then the Moto case because of the number of users that have this device.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I know that the dev's are working there rear ends off, and I appreciate all their efforts. I am truly pulling for them and hope that they can get the bootloader figured out. I'm not an expert, but in my opinion the ROMs on the DX didn't compare to a fully unlocked device and I'd prefer not to have to suffer through 2+ years of touchwiz.
Thalinor,
I agree that this maybe turning into the Droid X. As a droid x owner, waiting and watching for 18 months to see VZW and Motorola dump on us, I don't think we'll get anywhere with them. There was a huge effort on the DX with petitions, phone calls, emails, twitter, and FB posts.
Just a thought, but what about petitioning the law firm to take up this case. We are not going to get anywhere from VZW's or Samsung's pity for us. If this bootloader is truly encrypted, and if it is anything like the DX, the only way we will get this device completely unlocked is through a legal obligation on VZW's part. I think our energy would be better spent with the Attorneys who stand to profit from this case rather than burning our energy on VZW and Samsung who probably don't give a crap. I would think that the law-firm would have some interest in this (maybe?):

File with the FCC:
http://www.fcc.gov/complaints/
Talk about the Block C complaints. Don't attack them.
Post on VZW's Facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/verizon
Talk about how dissatisfied you are and how you're looking to switch. Don't attack them.
Post on Samsung Mobile's Facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/SamsungMobile
Don't attack them. Talk about how you will reconsider purchasing their devices in the future. They don't want to have to lock bootloaders, Verizon is almost certainly making them do it.
File with the BBB:
http://www.bbb.org/us/verizon-wireless/
Talk about how anti-competitive their practices are and how dissatisfied you are as a customer. Require an answer.
Complain to Verizon Wireless' Site:
https://www.verizonwireless.com/b2c/contact/email.jsp
Don't attack them. Keep in mind you're talking to an employee, they didn't choose to lock down the bootloader. Be respectful but make your concern noted.
The problem lies with Verizon Wireless. They believe that there are not enough people concerned about this to affect their profit margin. You need to show that you will vote with your dollar and move somewhere else if this complaint is not answered. Also, bring up the Block C agreement. There are potential legal repercussions-- meaning that the FCC may be the best place to direct your complaints. Be respectful, I know we're upset, but being pissed off won't get you anywhere.

I just filled out a complaint with the FCC basically asking them to enforce the Block C agreement from Verizon.
I'll phone the lawyers posted on the first page when I get a chance at work tomorrow.

amt897 said:
File with the FCC:
http://www.fcc.gov/complaints/
Talk about the Block C complaints. Don't attack them.
Post on VZW's Facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/verizon
Talk about how dissatisfied you are and how you're looking to switch. Don't attack them.
Post on Samsung Mobile's Facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/SamsungMobile
Don't attack them. Talk about how you will reconsider purchasing their devices in the future. They don't want to have to lock bootloaders, Verizon is almost certainly making them do it.
File with the BBB:
http://www.bbb.org/us/verizon-wireless/
Talk about how anti-competitive their practices are and how dissatisfied you are as a customer. Require an answer.
Complain to Verizon Wireless' Site:
https://www.verizonwireless.com/b2c/contact/email.jsp
Don't attack them. Keep in mind you're talking to an employee, they didn't choose to lock down the bootloader. Be respectful but make your concern noted.
The problem lies with Verizon Wireless. They believe that there are not enough people concerned about this to affect their profit margin. You need to show that you will vote with your dollar and move somewhere else if this complaint is not answered. Also, bring up the Block C agreement. There are potential legal repercussions-- meaning that the FCC may be the best place to direct your complaints. Be respectful, I know we're upset, but being pissed off won't get you anywhere.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't even own an S3, nor am I on Verizon, but damn't...I'm doing every one of things and calling just out of principle. I'm glad I left Verizon a long time ago, but they still tried to get more for money for almost 2 years. Damn near ruined my credit...assholes are going down.
Sent from my SGH-I727 using xda premium

I'd love to see this in major media:
"The Samsung S3 is a excellent smartphone, but Verizon's software modifications have made it unlikely to be upgraded and supported long term. If that's important to you, we recommend you consider another carrier."

My girlfriend used to work for the local news, I'll talk to her about contacting her friends at the station and see if I can get a face to face, or at least an email contact. I'll have to dig up all the info I can on the block C stuff and locked/encrypted bootloaders to take to them first.
Sent from my Droid X until I get my SGS3

block c
The Block C issue relates more toward unlocked devices like the nexus on the play store than unlocked bootloaders. You may be able to press the unlocked bootloader issue under the 'open applications' provision, but obviously that did a ton of good for Google Wallet. Of course, I can't find a single device you can use on Verizon's network that isn't held in verizon's death grip, so even the open device provision seems to be being ignored. The worst part is that verizon filed suits against these provisions and LOST. But true to form, if you have enough money and pull, and are willing to screw your customers as every turn (share everything plans are such a great deal right?) you can break the law over and over in broad daylight, and no one with power will bat an eye. Also, I'm not sure why the 'open application' provision was never really used as a battering ram when in came to things like tethering applications.

I think this type of work is very important. Thanks so much. Very much looking forward to hearing more from the companies themselves about why they make these types of decisions. Can't wait for an update here.
Sent from my Incredible 2 using xda app-developers app

Complained with the FCC, here is my complaint for anyone looking for somewhat of a template.
Recently, after preordering a Samsung Galaxy s3 handset from Verizon, I learned that they have violated the openness requirements of the Block C spectrum purchasing agreement by encrypting my device. This directly impacts my ability to enjoy my phone, and take advantage of the spectrum which Verizon owns. While I understand that the purchasing agreement gives Verizon leeway in regards to "reasonable" protection of the network, no other carrier in the United States (or the world), has done this, leading me to believe that this action is indeed unreasonable. It is unfair and anti-competitive for a company to misuse frequencies they own in this way.
I appreciate your time, and would appreciate a response in this matter.
Thank you,

With Verizon Twitter claiming it was Samsung, I'm curious what both companies said.

skennelly said:
I know that the dev's are working there rear ends off, and I appreciate all their efforts. I am truly pulling for them and hope that they can get the bootloader figured out. I'm not an expert, but in my opinion the ROMs on the DX didn't compare to a fully unlocked device and I'd prefer not to have to suffer through 2+ years of touchwiz.
Thalinor,
Just a thought, but what about petitioning the law firm to take up this case. We are not going to get anywhere from VZW's or Samsung's pity for us. If this bootloader is truly encrypted, and if it is anything like the DX, the only way we will get this device completely unlocked is through a legal obligation on VZW's part. I think our energy would be better spent with the Attorneys who stand to profit from this case rather than burning our energy on VZW and Samsung who probably don't give a crap. I would think that the law-firm would have some interest in this (maybe?):
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's the whole point! I certainly don't have the money to go up against Verizon and do not want to make a dime out of this; that's not the point at all. I want Verizon to once and for all agree to stop ****ing with our phones. Phones should be sold locked not signed/encrypted.
Locked protects Verizon or the manufacture from having to eat the costs of a new phone when an end user breaks their device doing something irresponsible. I don't want Verizon paying for people's screwed up devices because eventually it will lead to MY bill going up. Its not my fault if someone screw's up their device. On the other hand by encrypting the bootloader Verizon is forcing people to do things that may lead to breaking your phone. If the manufacture offered a phone number for unlocking, where you would agree that unless it was something hardware defective, if you unlock and your device breaks, its not under warranty. Problem solved for everyone; no encrypted bootloader needed.
I am going after Verizon but this is really about every carrier who gimps cell phones. Smartphones have become pocket computers. They are no longer PDA's, or "like" pocket computers, they ARE pocket computers. Hell, my SG3 is got better hardware specs than the **** netbooks people waited in line for last black Friday at Walmart. If we consider netbooks in that they come giving the buyer full administrative access over the device and yet still give the end user the option to hook it up to Wi-Fi. One way or another my devices are hooking up to a company who I pay for data and/or voice service. My rights should be universal and now that the device in my pocket has evolved into a full blown computer, my access rights should evolve as well. Whether its a computer in your pocket or a computer on your desk, it can be used in accordance with your providers service agreement, or it can be abused.
Prejudging your entire customer base to abuse your network and handing down sentence as judge, jury, and executioner like Verizon has done, before people have even had the chance to make the decision to do right or wrong; to me that just violates every ideal set forth in this countries constitution. I am ****ing sick of corporate america ****ting on this countries citizens, and the whole god damn world for that matter. It needs to stop. While I despise lawyers to the core, I sincerely hope they take on this case and prove there are still people in the field who remember why their profession exists (Hint: Its NOT to make money) and that there is some justice left in this country.
/end rant
Update: Talked to Verizon Exec, they have passed info on to the lawyers to look over and may or may not get back to me; at this point its out of her hands.
Update: I have not heard back from the lawyers above, but another user here on XDA PM'd me and said they were able to talk to someone today who told them that the legal team was looking into the case and make a decision after getting more information. They have my number, if they want to call me they can; if not I could care less who spear heads this as long as the battle is fought and won.
Update: I called Samsung, talked to Level I, they tried to transfer me to level III, I was put on told and Level I came back and said they would call me back later. The call never came. I will try them again more vigorously tomorrow.
MichaelVash7886 said:
With Verizon Twitter claiming it was Samsung, I'm curious what both companies said.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
LMFAO @ Verizon's blatant bull**** lies. Why would Samsung decide, at their own free will and expense, to sign-encrypt ONLY Verizon's Galaxy S3, and not one other carrier in the world? Verizon is full of **** and the fact they think the line "Its the other guys fault" is actually going to work, is flat out ****ing insulting.
Screenshot that and post it here please. I do not use social networking; if they really need to spy on me they have my smartphone information, and know where to find me.

AT&T rep: "Your GS4 is slow because you did not activate it properly."

Returned my GS4 today (that's not the purpose of this thread, so don't bash me), and when the guy asked why I was returning it, I said it's kind of laggy and not enough of an upgrade over my GS3 to warrant keeping. A few minutes later he asked if I ever "activated" the phone, and I said, "I just stuck my SIM card in and it worked." He responded, "Well that is why your GS4 was slow--you did not activate it properly."
I proceeded to explain to him that I did not mean that data was slow, but that the phone itself was laggy, i.e., opening dialer, taking pictures, etc--stuff that has nothing to do with the SIM card or activation. He nevertheless argued with me and insisted that if I had properly activated it instead of just inserting my SIM card, then it would have functioned better. We argued for a minute or two and then I just gave up and said "fine, I would like to return it anyways, thanks."
Anyways, just thought I'd share. The guy clearly has no idea what he's talking about, but it was worth a laugh.

It's like when I told the att rep that I might not be purchasing tha s4 because of the locked boot loader. She proceeded to explain that you could take the back of the phone off and that it was not locked.

MrGriffdude said:
It's like when I told the att rep that I might not be purchasing tha s4 because of the locked boot loader. She proceeded to explain that you could take the back of the phone off and that it was not locked.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Lol do these people get ZERO training?
Sent from my HTC One

MrGriffdude said:
It's like when I told the att rep that I might not be purchasing tha s4 because of the locked boot loader. She proceeded to explain that you could take the back of the phone off and that it was not locked.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ha. Funniest post so far today...

Ugh, this makes me so angry. These AT&T reps remind me of Best Buy employees that sell computers or phones. They are so used to being the "person that knows everything" that they can't deal with being proved wrong or won't see it any other way. For example, I wanted a Macbook Pro and I knew the onboard video card could run my favorite games at a full 60 fps.. So I asked for a sales person to get me the laptop in the cage. Instead, I was given a lecture by the sales person on why "Macs can't play games" and I should get this HP "gaming" laptop (17 inches, neon lights, etc). I tried to educate him on things like bootcamp, nVidia series numbers, and even the games themselves, but nothing got through. He was told at some point in his life that "Macs can't play games" and that's that.
It's gotten to the point where if I want to cancel a service or return a product and they ask "what was wrong?" I simply say "it wasn't the right fit for me" or "I just want to try something else". It's not worth getting in an argument about because there are no winners and you aren't going to educate anyone that gets paid to sell, sell, sell. Educate yourself ahead of time of the store's policies and if the rep tries to give you sh*t, just ask for a manager and be sure you are able to quote policy if need be.

I work for AT&T. I'm not a tech support slave, I'd like to keep my title confidential, but I will say that these people don't deserve this kind of trashtalk.
Do remember that over 90% of AT&T's subscriber base is not the type of individual that's going to browse these forums or know what a locked bootloader even is. The % of the Android community that is into modding is way smaller than you think. Why would AT&T train their tech support slaves on locked bootloaders and rooting? 99% of the time, they deal with billing issues and irate customers who are complaining about service drops.
The tech support slaves also don't have training on the internal workings of the tiered system of Android. They didn't make the phone, they can't tell you why it's slow. The only material they have to go off of, is the same material that's available to us from within the box, and the information they catch up on when people call and complain to them. They aren't programmers, they aren't Samsung. They aren't Google. They are a provider of service. I'm sure almost everyone here would agree that it's dumb to call Comcast and ask them why your computer is slow(Not your internet, but your computer). This is the exact same thing. What do you expect them to say when you say "I'm not going to get the S4 because it has a locked bootloader"? Do you expect the response to be "Well sir I can assist you with that. Please dial this 24 digit number and the pound key and your bootloader will be unlocked.", how do you expect them to fix it for you? Locked bootloaders happen for a LEGAL reason, and the bootloader has already been unlocked. Everyone on XDA is so impatient and rude anymore, it makes me not want to be a part of the degrading community.
In my opinion, the person calling AT&T to complain about their phone being slow and laggy shows less common sense than the AT&T rep who can't help them. Just because they're "Tech Support" doesn't mean they can magically give you explenations out of the nether or fix any problem you might have with the hardware that they did not manufacture. Android is an operating system. If you bought your computer from Walmart and it came with Windows installed, would you call Walmart and ask them questions about why your system isn't performing the way it's supposed to, or would you call Microsoft; the people responsible for the software on the device?
Cut these people a break. It's impossible to police the entire bug list of Android across every handset on the market. 90% of the Android user-base wouldn't even notice that the phone was performing slowly when it shouldn't. Us here at XDA are a huge minority.
When I saw this thread, I laughed, not because of what the AT&T rep said, but because the OP was expecting them to give them some detailed analysis on why their phone is lagging. Maybe AT&T should start hiring their tech support slaves directly from Google Interns, then these wambulance threads wouldn't happen.
If you had any idea how much "training" is required to work in any kind of support department for AT&T, you would think twice before crying on forums about how they didn't rifle off a fix for every little problem you have.
As to the comment above me, I will recite the same. Sales people aren't scholars of technology. He's correct that gaming on a Mac is very uncommon, considering almost every computer game in existence runs on DirectX, which is owned by Microsoft, thus not able to be efficiently included in OS X. Do you really damn the salesman for telling you that Windows has 3498230948230948x more gaming capabilities than a Mac? Because I hate to tell you this, but he's right. If I were the salesman, I would try to prevent you from grossly overpaying by 200-300% for a device that you're going to have to jump through hoops for to play an insanely large library of games. What makes it even more hilarious is that now you can install OS X on a Windows based machine, so you're literally overpaying 200-300% for a shiny white Mac because you are a sheeple. Show me any Mac, and I'll build you a Windows computer with Mac OS-X on it for a third of the price. But seriously, If you want to buy a Mac for gaming and you want them to talk to you about strictly Macs, go to an apple store. If you go to a computer store, they're going to try to talk you into Windows, because it's what 85% of the world uses. This is also not a random statistic, although the study is a few years old.

Could have read it wrong,but looks like he was returning his phone and the att rep asked him why. So he told them. what was wrong with that? He didn't take his phone to att thinking some kind of magic was going to take place and it wouldn't lag anymore. That was the att rep saying if he actavatied it he wouldn't have that problem. Again maybe I read the op wrong.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using xda premium

I'm fine with people not knowing if its that important i will usually know about it anyways. I just dislike it when I get a bull crap response in return. If I do receive one I don't make a scene and argue with them. I just thought that response was worth a chuckle or two.

atsim said:
Could have read it wrong,but looks like he was returning his phone and the att rep asked him why. So he told them. what was wrong with that? He didn't take his phone to att thinking some kind of magic was going to take place and it wouldn't lag anymore. That was the att rep saying if he actavatied it he wouldn't have that problem. Again maybe I read the op wrong.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using xda premium
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Considering the title of the thread is meant to find humor in the reps response, it doesn't really matter how it came about. If he wanted to return his phone, do it without picking fun at people who are literally paid to be treated like dirt. I have to talk to support every single day in my job, and trust me, it can be a huge headache, but I don't hold it against them because I know that when I hang up with them, 9 times out of 10, the next person that picks up the phone is going to scream at them.
Perhaps I was a little rude, I meant no offense to any of you.

geokhentix said:
I work for AT&T. I'm not a tech support slave, I'd like to keep my title confidential, but I will say that these people don't deserve this kind of trashtalk.
Do remember that over 90% of AT&T's subscriber base is not the type of individual that's going to browse these forums or know what a locked bootloader even is. The % of the Android community that is into modding is way smaller than you think. Why would AT&T train their tech support slaves on locked bootloaders and rooting? 99% of the time, they deal with billing issues and irate customers who are complaining about service drops.
The tech support slaves also don't have training on the internal workings of the tiered system of Android. They didn't make the phone, they can't tell you why it's slow. The only material they have to go off of, is the same material that's available to us from within the box, and the information they catch up on when people call and complain to them. They aren't programmers, they aren't Samsung. They aren't Google. They are a provider of service. I'm sure almost everyone here would agree that it's dumb to call Comcast and ask them why your computer is slow(Not your internet, but your computer). This is the exact same thing. What do you expect them to say when you say "I'm not going to get the S4 because it has a locked bootloader"? Do you expect the response to be "Well sir I can assist you with that. Please dial this 24 digit number and the pound key and your bootloader will be unlocked.", how do you expect them to fix it for you? Locked bootloaders happen for a LEGAL reason, and the bootloader has already been unlocked. Everyone on XDA is so impatient and rude anymore, it makes me not want to be a part of the degrading community.
In my opinion, the person calling AT&T to complain about their phone being slow and laggy shows less common sense than the AT&T rep who can't help them. Just because they're "Tech Support" doesn't mean they can magically give you explenations out of the nether or fix any problem you might have with the hardware that they did not manufacture. Android is an operating system. If you bought your computer from Walmart and it came with Windows installed, would you call Walmart and ask them questions about why your system isn't performing the way it's supposed to, or would you call Microsoft; the people responsible for the software on the device?
Cut these people a break. It's impossible to police the entire bug list of Android across every handset on the market. 90% of the Android user-base wouldn't even notice that the phone was performing slowly when it shouldn't. Us here at XDA are a huge minority.
When I saw this thread, I laughed, not because of what the AT&T rep said, but because the OP was expecting them to give them some detailed analysis on why their phone is lagging. Maybe AT&T should start hiring their tech support slaves directly from Google Interns, then these wambulance threads wouldn't happen.
If you had any idea how much "training" is required to work in any kind of support department for AT&T, you would think twice before crying on forums about how they didn't rifle off a fix for every little problem you have.
As to the comment above me, I will recite the same. Sales people aren't scholars of technology. He's correct that gaming on a Mac is very uncommon, considering almost every computer game in existence runs on DirectX, which is owned by Microsoft, thus not able to be efficiently included in OS X. Do you really damn the salesman for telling you that Windows has 3498230948230948x more gaming capabilities than a Mac? Because I hate to tell you this, but he's right. If I were the salesman, I would try to prevent you from grossly overpaying by 200-300% for a device that you're going to have to jump through hoops for to play an insanely large library of games. What makes it even more hilarious is that now you can install OS X on a Windows based machine, so you're literally overpaying 200-300% for a shiny white Mac because you are a sheeple. Show me any Mac, and I'll build you a Windows computer with Mac OS-X on it for a third of the price. But seriously, If you want to buy a Mac for gaming and you want them to talk to you about strictly Macs, go to an apple store. If you go to a computer store, they're going to try to talk you into Windows, because it's what 85% of the world uses. This is also not a random statistic, although the study is a few years old.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I tend to disagree. While sure, the reps may not be "informed" they still shouldn't try to talk out of their asses about something they don't understand. If anything this would shy me away from a product than entice me to get it. Imagine if you go to a restaurant and you ask the waiter/waitress about ingredients in a dish, they don't make stuff up if they don't know, they go ask.
As for this being a "degrading community" please get off this forum, as it's clearly not for you.

raqball said:
Agree!
It's like people expect that store (best buy, cellular ect) employees all have a BAS or MBA in computer science..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
My only gripe is when the person you are talking to (best buy, AT&T, etc) claims that they KNOW they are right because they've had some Saturday afternoon training.
See my example above. All I did was ask for a Macbook Pro from the Best Buy rep and I was questioned on my purchase. A more recent example was the AT&T rep asking me why I cared about the release date of the Galaxy S4 because "it's not like this is an iPhone". It shouldn't matter if it's the S4, iPhone or even a dumb phone. Just answer my question and I'll be on my way.
Even when I went to the store to pick up the S4, the AT&T rep started the phone, and logged in as his own Gmail account and installed a "task killer". He had the phone behind the desk where I couldn't see and by the time I had gotten it in my hands, he had logged out of his account. I asked simply "why did you install this?" and he said "well that's so your phone doesn't run slow. Just run that every couple days and your good". I just factory reset as soon as I got in the car and went on my way.

mcmb03 said:
I tend to disagree. While sure, the reps may not be "informed" they still shouldn't try to talk out of their asses about something they don't understand. If anything this would shy me away from a product than entice me to get it. Imagine if you go to a restaurant and you ask the waiter/waitress about ingredients in a dish, they don't make stuff up if they don't know, they go ask.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
They are paid to handle your questions. That is their job. They are not allowed to say "I don't know.", or they will lose their job. If I were at a restaurant and asked a waiter about the ingredients in a dish, I would know that the restaurant obviously made this dish themselves. AT&T did not manufacture the S4. It is not their hardware. It is not their software..well, a small portion of it is. But either way, they shouldn't be held responsible for the physical malfunctions of a device that they didn't themselves produce.
"Degrading community"; go look at the bootloader unlock thread and see how many people are crying and being impatient and just downright rude because djrbliss decided not to release HIS WORK until he sees necessary, and then tell me this community isn't degrading, and if things keep going in this direction, I will find my way off this forum...Because you are right, it's not for me, because I am not an impatient troll that bites the hand that feeds me just because I don't want to wait a few weeks. I do know that this is irrelevant to this thread, but I thought I'd post it anyway. It bothers me so much. I want to punch everyone being jerks in that thread......right in the face.

No I didn't think it was rude. This is xda though people get crazy over the smallest thing. How many lag threads do we have now? Ahaha things get outta hand fast.
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using xda premium

geokhentix said:
They are paid to handle your questions. That is their job. They are not allowed to say "I don't know.", or they will lose their job. If I were at a restaurant and asked a waiter about the ingredients in a dish, I would know that the restaurant obviously made this dish themselves. AT&T did not manufacture the S4. It is not their hardware. It is not their software..well, a small portion of it is. But either way, they shouldn't be held responsible for the physical malfunctions of a device that they didn't themselves produce.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I didn't say they should say they don't know, they should go find a more well-informed rep at the store and find out, unless you condone of AT&T reps to lie to their customers.
Also I don't mean to sound harsh, it's just something that really pisses me off, and I'm not trying to flame you or anything

mcmb03 said:
I didn't say they should say they don't know, they should go find a more well-informed rep at the store and find out, unless you condone of AT&T reps to lie to their customers.
Also I don't mean to sound harsh, it's just something that really pisses me off, and I'm not trying to flame you or anything
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hey, no worries, all in good fun right? I don't condone lying, but they aren't allowed to tell you they don't know, they'll lose their jobs if that happens too often...they're basically forced to lie if they can't give you a definite answer. Damn, if I get one bad survey, my director breathes down my neck like a dragon and threatens to send me to gitmo.

geokhentix said:
Considering the title of the thread is meant to find humor in the reps response, it doesn't really matter how it came about. If he wanted to return his phone, do it without picking fun at people who are literally paid to be treated like dirt. I have to talk to support every single day in my job, and trust me, it can be a huge headache, but I don't hold it against them because I know that when I hang up with them, 9 times out of 10, the next person that picks up the phone is going to scream at them.
Perhaps I was a little rude, I meant no offense to any of you.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
As a retail sales leader for one of the major 4 in the US I find the OP to have every right to post what he did and use the Thread title he did. The sales rep that helped him in an effing dolt. Along the same lines as the reps that tell customers that they need to condition a Lithium Ion/Lithium Polymer battery. You need to calm down bro.

mcmb03 said:
I didn't say they should say they don't know, they should go find a more well-informed rep at the store and find out, unless you condone of AT&T reps to lie to their customers.
Also I don't mean to sound harsh, it's just something that really pisses me off, and I'm not trying to flame you or anything
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Exactly making something up is worse then not knowing just tell me you don't know and be done with it. don't make something up and misinform people

MrGriffdude said:
Exactly making something up is worse then not knowing just tell me you don't know and be done with it. don't make something up and misinform people
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
When my job is on the line and I have a family to feed and I have no information in front of me about the problem you're having, I'll tell you that your phone is slow because there's a small civilization of gnomes inside your device that are getting a little too sexual and overbreeding

geokhentix said:
When my job is on the line and I have a family to feed and I have no information in front of me about the problem you're having, I'll tell you that your phone is slow because there's a small civilization of gnomes inside your device that are getting a little too sexual and overbreeding
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Now that people would definitely believe!

Need "Real" help with LTE Flashing...

Hi guys,
I've been a member of XDA for a while now. I'm not as active as I hoped to be when I joined but I live such a busy life it's impossible to stay on and continuously remain active.
Anyway, to my point and reason for starting this thread. There are certain individuals with the knowledge on this site (and others) whom are fully capable of flashing LTE capable devices. The ones that can be flashed anyway. I'm not talking about illegal flashing, donor phones or anything like that. I'm talking about simple, legal flashing to another wireless carrier such as taking a VZW Galaxy S3 and flashing it to Page+.
I've offered to pay one individual to show/teach me how it's done. I can flash 3G devices without issue. But asking someone to teach you, show you or otherwise provide you with tips on how to flash LTE phones is a lost cause. They use this ability to make money charging $35 a pop to flash phones. And that's fair I guess. If you can do something others cannot then you charge for it right?
But what gets me is that we are Android enthusiast's. An open-source mobile development project that went beyond the expectations of it's original dev's at Google I would imagine. Now, it's arguably the most popular mobile OS in the world. To me it's the most popular anyway, to h3ll with iOS.
Anyway, for us to be all about the open source scene and what not but to refuse to share knowledge about flashing LTE devices because of pure greed is beyond me. We live out lives based on free, open source software but when it comes to something such as flashing LTE devices there is no way anyone will help you learn how to do it or especially show you how to do it.
That's why I'm starting this thread. I want/need to learn how to flash LTE phones to Page Plus. That's it... I run a smartphone shop and often have client's come in wanting options or directly asking me if I can flash a phone to Page+ for them. Well sure! But only if it's a 3G device. :-/
The only other way is for me to use a certain individual who charges $35 to flash the phones remotely. If I try to double it up to $70 then my client's are turned off as there is a shop further away from mine who has a T-Mobile employee there who flashes phones for $35. So I want to be able to offer this service to my clients for the same. I cannot charge them $35, jump online and wait on the person who's name I will not mention to get to me when they can. I make no money, in fact, the time I would have to spend doing this would cost me money because in my field time truly is money.
I need an open source enthusiast whom isn't p0ser. One whom is willing to teach me how to flash LTE phones so that I can offer this service to my customer's. I do not care about the money, I simply want people to know that I can do anything for them at my shop. Telling them I cannot flash LTE phones is just bad for my business in general.
So, with all of that said I would really be impressed if a true enthusiast came out of the wood work to help me with this little problem. Me and the thousands of other individuals who need to know how to flash LTE devices. I mean wow, the things we use this site for... Yet no one will reveal the secrets of LTE flashing. It boggles my mind.
And yes, I've read thread after thread on forum after forum trying to decipher the methods used to flash these phones. I know it's simple, it's as simple as flashing a 3G device to Page+. That's what makes me even more discouraged about it all. It's so easy to do. That means it's easy to teach. I have all of the necessary software do flash nearly any device. But the exact steps to follow are what I am missing.
So, someone, anyone who cares about the open source movement and the ability we have to share knowledge please step forward and show not only me, but everyone here that open source development is not used for profit but for expanding our knowledge. It seems that some of us of gotten off of track over the years. Greed is one of the things that makes Apple a horrible company, it's also what makes people turn into individuals they never meant/hoped to be.
So c'mon guys, let's forget all of the bs and let's get back to our roots here. Who's willing to help me learn how to flash LTE devices? I can offer compensation if I must but again, that would go against the idea behind open source. I simply need to learn how to do this, period. And I'll do whatever I need to do in order to learn.
Thank you all for taking the time to read this and hopefully it will do some good.
Sincerely and Respectfully,
PAinguIN

The info I found here is completely baffling to me. Half the phones listed say they're a 4G device and will work with voice/text/data/ The other half say they won't work because they're 4G phones. So as for the "why" you might be able to flash a particular phone, I don't know. Seems dependent on a phone-by-phone basis.
Does Page Plus even offer LTE service? Does it even offer 4G of any sort (like HSPA+)? The coverage map on their website only lists EV-DO for data. Plans list amounts of data, but make no mention of 4G or LTE.
Or are you merely trying to get LTE capable Verizon phones to work with Page Plus service, regardless of what actual speed of data they can get?
There's many aspects of this that I don't understand. Are you the operator of a corporate-owned store? Are you a franchise? Do you operate as an authorized representative of Page Plus, as well as other MVNOs? I really don't know how these type of shops work, although I see them everywhere.
Offering to flash for free might be breaking some sort of contract or something. I agree that it's greedy to charge so much for so quick/simple a task, but I'm not surprised they charge so much either, since bringing a phone and paying the money to flash it is way cheaper than buying a new phone (and the phone selection on their website is craptacular - just plain awful), so they get the money where they can.
The software to flash phones in this way, I'm betting, took a lot of development, time, and money. The fact that this service isn't available to you, and must be done through a separate, paid service, means to me that they're keeping this to themselves for reasons that should be obvious.
XDA is a community devoted to developing and "hacking" (primarily) the Android system. What you're looking for has far less to do with Android. and more to do with the carriers themselves. Some phones can be flashed, some can't. Or rather, ones that "can't" perhaps can, but would require a bunch of R&D to get done, and isn't worth it to find out. What I mean to say is that what you're asking for probably won't be done. Not without forking over a ton of money, because what you'd expect/hope to do is impossible, and the people who could do it have already done so, and they are the very people who offer this service at $55 a pop because it took a lot of time and money to figure out how to do it.
And no personal offense intended, but Page Plus looks like a horrible choice to go with for anyone who expects to use a smartphone. The phone selection sucks beyond comprehension. Seriously, the only thing it has going for it besides its cheap rates is that it has Verizon's coverage. But who needs that kind of coverage? Probably people that can afford Verizon's actual plans and can enjoy its LTE network and/or travel across the country a lot, and wouldn't bother with this joke of a company in the first place. Bring your own 4G phone? Why? Go with a Verzion pre-paid plan. Or tell Big Red to stick it and go with a company that doesn't anally rape their customers, like T-Mobile. It just seems to me that there's better options, including Verizon-powered MVNOs than Page Plus. When it comes to smartphones, anyway. Basic voice/text plans are probably OK.
Whatever. I don't know why I spent so much time responding to your post. I sincerely wish you success in your business. The world certainly needs people like you that want to give their customers what they need for as little money as possible, and with as little nickel-and-diming (ass-raping) as necessary. But the software/hardware/firmware limitations on so many phones made for the US market make what you're hoping for a physical and/or logistical/financial impossibility (or, simply, more than it's worth) to realize.

Planterz said:
The info I found here is completely baffling to me. Half the phones listed say they're a 4G device and will work with voice/text/data/ The other half say they won't work because they're 4G phones. So as for the "why" you might be able to flash a particular phone, I don't know. Seems dependent on a phone-by-phone basis.
Does Page Plus even offer LTE service? Does it even offer 4G of any sort (like HSPA+)? The coverage map on their website only lists EV-DO for data. Plans list amounts of data, but make no mention of 4G or LTE.
Or are you merely trying to get LTE capable Verizon phones to work with Page Plus service, regardless of what actual speed of data they can get?
There's many aspects of this that I don't understand. Are you the operator of a corporate-owned store? Are you a franchise? Do you operate as an authorized representative of Page Plus, as well as other MVNOs? I really don't know how these type of shops work, although I see them everywhere.
Offering to flash for free might be breaking some sort of contract or something. I agree that it's greedy to charge so much for so quick/simple a task, but I'm not surprised they charge so much either, since bringing a phone and paying the money to flash it is way cheaper than buying a new phone (and the phone selection on their website is craptacular - just plain awful), so they get the money where they can.
The software to flash phones in this way, I'm betting, took a lot of development, time, and money. The fact that this service isn't available to you, and must be done through a separate, paid service, means to me that they're keeping this to themselves for reasons that should be obvious.
XDA is a community devoted to developing and "hacking" (primarily) the Android system. What you're looking for has far less to do with Android. and more to do with the carriers themselves. Some phones can be flashed, some can't. Or rather, ones that "can't" perhaps can, but would require a bunch of R&D to get done, and isn't worth it to find out. What I mean to say is that what you're asking for probably won't be done. Not without forking over a ton of money, because what you'd expect/hope to do is impossible, and the people who could do it have already done so, and they are the very people who offer this service at $55 a pop because it took a lot of time and money to figure out how to do it.
And no personal offense intended, but Page Plus looks like a horrible choice to go with for anyone who expects to use a smartphone. The phone selection sucks beyond comprehension. Seriously, the only thing it has going for it besides its cheap rates is that it has Verizon's coverage. But who needs that kind of coverage? Probably people that can afford Verizon's actual plans and can enjoy its LTE network and/or travel across the country a lot, and wouldn't bother with this joke of a company in the first place. Bring your own 4G phone? Why? Go with a Verzion pre-paid plan. Or tell Big Red to stick it and go with a company that doesn't anally rape their customers, like T-Mobile. It just seems to me that there's better options, including Verizon-powered MVNOs than Page Plus. When it comes to smartphones, anyway. Basic voice/text plans are probably OK.
Whatever. I don't know why I spent so much time responding to your post. I sincerely wish you success in your business. The world certainly needs people like you that want to give their customers what they need for as little money as possible, and with as little nickel-and-diming (ass-raping) as necessary. But the software/hardware/firmware limitations on so many phones made for the US market make what you're hoping for a physical and/or logistical/financial impossibility (or, simply, more than it's worth) to realize.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Planterz,
Yes, I'm just trying to get LTE capable VZW (and certain Sprint phones as rare as they are) to work on P+. I know 3G speeds are possible but as you pointed out 4G LTE is not. That's not really important. As long as SMS, MMS, and mobile web is there then my client's will be happy.
And no, I'm not an authorized Page+ provider. The shop I own started from something I did on the side for extra money. I'm an IT guy by trade but about 3 months ago I decided to resign from my day job, focus on phones and now I'm opening my own shop! It has really been amazing!
But anyway, I plan on becoming an authorized P+ provider because from what I read it's very easy to do so. From what i understand it is perfectly legal to flash devices that Page Plus supports (and some that they do not) to their network. It will, however, automatically cancel any contract that was previously associated with the phone. This will result in early termination fees and all of that jazz. Oh, and this is only if you flash it while it's active on an account. If it is not attached to a wireless carrier then there's nothing to worry about.
And, you are right, XDA is primarily devoted to the development of 3rd party, open source Android OS's. The hacking, well, the hacking comes in place when devices will not let you unlock their boot loader. Such as Samsung. You cannot unlock the bootloader on an S4 (not sure about the S5) yet... And Samsung does not help you with this. They do not encourage unlocking the boot loader.. HTC, however, encourages you to and provides you with the means to unlock your boot loader free of charge. This is one of the main reasons's I have used HTC phones for the last 4-5 years. Since the EVO was released and then the HTC One M7.
But still, what is done here on XDA is much more than simply hacking phones and development. There are lots of threads associated with flashing and some of them have very useful info if you're wanting to flash a 3G device. (Which is easy by the way). But, LTE devices... Unfortunately the story is not the same.
I was just hoping someone could point me in the right direction or be so kind as to show me how it's down or send me the process for flashing, say, a Galaxy S3 on VZW (which is an LTE device). It only takes about 5-10 minutes...
And, lol!!! You have the wrong idea about my shop. I started buying and selling smartphones a couple of years ago. I've worked in the IT field for over a decade and have many loyal clients on the side. Slowly, I began to learn how to repair iPhone's and Android devices. I found a guy who did repairs, a local university student, he and I partnered up. We split everythihng 50/50. Things went surprisingly well! He graduated in May and moved back home, reluctantly...
I continued to carry the torch... My shop is not going to be a Page Plus shop. We have places named "Talk Unlimited" around here that serve that purpose. But as I said, I just hate having to tell people it's going to cost them $75 for a $35 job or even have to send them to Talk Unlimited whom charges $75 as well.
So no, we offer a wide array of services for smartphones including buying/selling. In addition, we offer services in the IT field which cover the entire spectrum. From computer repair and virus removal to enterprise level networking and defense contracting.
I gave up a darn good job and have staked everything I have in this business. So it has to be the BEST! It must offer what other's are incapable of offering and do so much cheaper. Which we do... And in the grand scheme of things being able to flash LTE phones really doesn't matter. But it's only good business to be able to provide the service if needed by a client.
I should have been more clear on that when I started the thread. So once again, no, I am not opening up a shop providing only flashing services to Page Plus and their crappie phones. And they are crappy, just as you pointed out. LOL!
With all of that said, do you know anyone I can speak to or any thread I can check out? Vip3r is the one whom I've used in the past. He knows his stuff, but he will not teach me how to do it. Not even if I pay him. And I understand, he has his reasons. I do not hold it against him. But i need to be able to offer this service if the time comes to where another client needs a solution and flashing to P+ is the only one you know?
Thank you for posting. Perhaps your post will help get a conversation started or something with some answers. Lol!
Thanks again Planterz!
PAinguIN

It's only a matter of time...
As my title states, "It's only a matter of time.". Once I discover how to flash LTE devices I will post my findings here. For everyone to see, read and use. To me, this is the only fair way to do things. Keeping open knowledge from others and forcing them to spend hours and hours online (which I don't have) to find all of the little answers needed is simply not an option for me nor is it for most others.
It appears that I'm missing out on only one or two steps in the process. I guess I'm going to have to ruin a few of my LTE devices as I try to learn this on my own. The process is (I would say) 90% similar to flashing a VZW iPhone 4 to Page Plus. But with a couple of missing steps. I need these steps.
If/when I discover how to do this on my own I will post it in this thread for EVERYONE to see. No longer will people have to ask questions about LTE flashing. Because it will ALL be RIGHT HERE! Mark my word, as soon as I discover what I'm doing wrong and perfect the process then it will be posted here in absolute detail.
If anyone has any information to contribute to this thread I, personally, and many, many others would be more grateful than you could possibly imagine.
Thanks,
PAinguIN

I am now an authorized P+ dealer...
And as time goes by I will piece together the puzzle of flashing non-VZW phones to P+ with MMS/SMS and at least 3G.
If anyone has any insight or tips into this please share.
Thanks!

Database Info

welcome