I wrote this On Xperia Neo General forum but it belongs to here much more.
Original thread at: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1447095
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Introduction
I have not seen much talk about security in XDA.
First, here's just one informative link talking about using and developing apps and security risks involved.
http://www.technologyreview.com/comp...1/?mod=related
Any bug in software could potentially be used as a security loophole to gain access to private information, spy on you, get your credit card info(should you do such things on phone).
What is kind of unsettling is that everyone seems fine with modding, tweaking, developing and using those ROMs made in XDA without worrying if there could be that kind of bug in your made or used ROM.
You don't need a malicious app only to have risks. Most people use Windows so they should know that it is OP systems bugs and vulnerabilities that allow for unwanted access to your files, data, etc.
Android itself is having very non-foolproof security system. All apps on unrooted phone are in sandbox. That's no security measure at all. It doesn't limit app from stealing your private info at all, it only cant delete the whole ROM. That's just idiotic security system, for it is the only thing beside encrypting shut off phone on 3.0 and 4.0. So that means Android on it's own has no security measures while it's working. Even Windows has... some... but not too much... so you could pay for antivirus and antispyware software ofc.
It has always been the goal of big corporations to make money from insecurity, be they software developers, arms dealers and you name it. They all benefit from insecurities existing. Same is with Google and it's Android. But the good news is that we the users can modify Android. We could all say "Au revoir security bugs and loopholes!" if we would care about developing ROMs designed to make Android more secure... alas that's not happening yet!
Overview of Linux/Android security issues.
It's a short condensed description just to get you interested in the topic. There's lots of material on net, you only need to search, read, watch videos.
Linux becomes more vulnerable with more applications with different permissions installed. Same is true for Android.
Say your Phone Exporer has root access, that means it has root access to whole Android. To remove unnecessary risks, this app's root access should be limited to only most necessary functions it needs to operate.
Currently for Android there is no such solution. For Linux there is Apparmor.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AppArmor
Total root access is obvious vulnerability, but it is at least known one. Let's look at possibility of apps having hidden permissions and what that could mean to you.
Blade Buddy from Market.
On market it does not list permission to "Unique Device ID"(IMEI for GSM and MEID; ESN for CDMA) for free nor for paid version.
That means the author of BB has left the code from free version in paid one. This permission is used by ads to track you. It's not necessary code for ads, but it helps the dev know who clicked on the add and generated him some money. To see your money generating zombie empire stretch across the whole globe.... quite a thrill, isn't it?
So it's a latent code, with no benefit to user and an exploit only calling to be abused.
Unique Device ID allows you to be tracked on net and also where you are physically. GPS is just one way to find you, police for example have scanners to locate your devices physical location by the IMEI code. You can count on the "bad guys" having this technology as well, for it's quite a tool for burglars and other criminals.
The risks of your home being marked as the next dungeon to be looted by some raiders, I mean criminals(or perhaps WoW players sleepwalking and sleepraiding?) or getting your ID and bank details stolen by trojan/hacker is random. Yet the threat would not exist without apps having so flagrant hidden permissions.
Next app with ludicrous permissions
Brightest Flashlight
It does list many permissions, among them "Hardware controls - take pictures and videos ". No, it does not need a permission to take photos through cameras to operate the flashlight. But it's fun nonetheless for the dev to see his trusty peasants, or maybe he just likes to observe people like some watch fish in aquarium or hamsters in cage( "Look at that dork!", "You're one ugly m...f...er","ummm a couple kissing in dark with ma flashlight, what are they searching?", "what's that you eat, mr Korean, brains?" "hey show me that document again.")
You don't even need to run the app yourself. It can be triggered by hacker on background and take a snapshot of you.
On top of this little needless permission it has following hidden permissions:
1. Unique IMSI, read about here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IMSI
2. MCC+MNC (CDMA)
3. Unique Devide ID
4. Cell Tower Name.
That's a lot of needless permissions for flashlight, these are there just to track you the app user and have nothing to do with your comfortable use of the app.
These are just 2 apps with totally needless permissions for their intended functioning. If you don't want your Windows and Linux have such security holes then why do you want your Android have them?! You don't want, that's the point and these apps would not be so popular if people would really know and care about their phone being secure.
It can be stated for sure that above exemplified permissions not listed on market are more useful for pranksters, criminals or someone plainly looking-down-on-all-the-dumb-sheep and not at all for any legitimate, user or customer friendly purposes.
There are very few tools to check for security and privacy problems in apps. That gives a sense that majority of devs do not want Android to be secure and private, because Android is another revenue generating platform through Google ads business of course. Were people more educated about the matter then Google ads business would shrink down as well. A private and secure Android can't be tracked or annoyed with ads. No ads, no profit. No security therefore means profit. Unfortunately this lack of security can be exploited by anyone with criminal or malignant intentions so very easily.
In my honest opinion. If someone keeps files like ccinfo they have to worry about being jacked then they deserve it. Should it happen. U shouldn't keep things on your phoney don't want the rest if the world to have
Sent from my Cyanocrack using Xparent Blue Tapatalk
You don't need to keep credit card info on phone, your using the credit card via Market or logging in to bank on phones browser is enough to intercept your credit card info. Your browser may show you xxxxxxxxxxxx+"last four digits only" but that doesn't mean the data to and from your device doesn't contain exact credit card number. It's encrypted, but that is merely a minor inconvenience for a hacker.
That is why being rooted is not advised to everyone. Mainly if they don't know what they are doing. Also customs roms are not for everyone. People flash them cause they think its cool and don't understand what they are doing. That is their problem. People should pay attention to the permissions that am app asks for. Common sense is the best protection. Main reason I don't do anything that deals with a bank on my phone.
Raoa said:
I have not seen much talk about security in XDA.
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There's talk. It's just not on important yet, because the android device is not being marketed like an OS is with a personal computer.
However, the more we do on our phones, the more we'll realize it needs protection like firewalls. We catch a few like CIQ or the Wimax exploit, but it's going to get worse as we advance in our integration. We do need to start now before exploits get worse and stay ahead of the curve.
Until that time, 4G exploits and root kit programs will run freely on our devices that houses a lot of our personal information.
Plus, for some stupid reason, there are a lot of people who think Linux is immuned to viruses and security holes due to it's code transparency. Android is being mainstreamed. It will soon be a continuous target like other existing popular software programs and operating systems.
And that's why iOS is far superior even without widgets or live wallpapers.
Something to think about.thanks for posting.
Sent from my HTC Glacier using XDA App
alex2792 said:
And that's why iOS is far superior even without widgets or live wallpapers.
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IOS and Mac are just as vulnerable, maybe even more so because of there popularity and the misconception that IOS is secure and does not need AntiVirus protection. Just last week i removed a nasty virus on a brand new Macbook Pro so that is not the way to think. You need to act as if there are security issues and just be really careful at what link you click and what email you open.
mattfox27 said:
IOS and Mac are just as vulnerable, maybe even more so because of there popularity and the misconception that IOS is secure and does not need AntiVirus protection. Just last week i removed a nasty virus on a brand new Macbook Pro so that is not the way to think. You need to act as if there are security issues and just be really careful at what link you click and what email you open.
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I'll give you OS X,but I've never heard of an iPhone virus while there are loads of malware on Android market.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk
I am not an expert on iOS nor do I have any wish to even know or use it, because Apple buys from suppliers that emply child labor and sweatshops.
When Linux started spreading around people also thought it has no viruses.
Same story repeats with every software.
For each different OS it takes merely time before people start to notice that their OS has viruses/trojans/spyware too. That doesn't mean their OS is not targeted. You should expect all sorts of thieves to use any and all opportunities.
Secondly OS does not matter so much as the matter that your device is connected to wifi, data, bluetooth, et or not. IP addresses, MAC, IMEI, etc they all stay the same on every platform. No matter which OS, they all connect to wireless networks, cell network, data, bluetooth, etc which all have set standards.
So someone wanting to track, spy, get your private info simply has to intercept the data your device sends to any network. If you don't use strong encryption to send info via network then it is easy to "wiretap" you.
Why is there so much spam, viruses, spyware in internet today? It's because the software managing internet is not made to be so secure. If it were secure then it would also be more private and safer for people to chat over net.
So not only OS's need to be more secure, but the very internet itself needs to be reformed.
This relates to SOPA and PIPA. Had those two bills been passed the next step would have been logically to make changes to all networks so you'd be more easily trackable, hackable, "wiretappable". It's simply logical, cause SOPA, PIPA were so defunctly worded as if asking/preparing for a third bill to regulate the networks.
So we must make sure that internet will be reformed for the private users and not for greedy corporations. We would not need to buy anti-spyware, anti-virus software if the internet were truly engineered for the welfare of humanity.
You could use any OS, bugged or not and not be afraid of loosing your property or privacy if the internet would stop such acts before they could harm you, the individual who is supposed to truly and freely benefit from the services; either for free or for honest price, but now you are robbed and think it is good to pay the thieves.
Raoa said:
Android itself is having very non-foolproof security system. All apps on unrooted phone are in sandbox. That's no security measure at all. It doesn't limit app from stealing your private info at all, it only cant delete the whole ROM.
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Please elaborate. The sandbox does prevent one app from reading the data of another, such as the CC info from the Market.
Also, are you sure Market sends the entire CC number? There's no reason for it to send it, the transaction is performed on Google's servers.
alex2792 said:
I'll give you OS X,but I've never heard of an iPhone virus while there are loads of malware on Android market.
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Are you talking about viruses or malware? Please don't conflate the two.
Malware is easy to take care of - check the apps you're downloading for what permissions they want. It's as simple as that.
alex2792 said:
I'll give you OS X,but I've never heard of an iPhone virus while there are loads of malware on Android market.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk
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Just before xmas an iphone developer admitted to deliberately uploading malware in his ios app to show malware can easily affect iphone.
http://m.intomobile.com/2011/11/08/security-expert-sneaks-malware-into-iphone-app-store/
That was for normal iphones. For jailbroken ones there are more malware apps.
Dave
Sent from my LG P920 using Tapatalk
Raoa, your absolutely right.
I've had the exact same thought recently
Its like the overall view of the Android landscape is ridden from real security apps, for the simple purpose of have the platform as open as possible. And while this is good for developers and users of this and other serious forums, its also open for the "dark" communities as well.
I often ask myself, if the ROM devs onboard have these thoughts themselves, as in, what is my source of this modded apk, is is straight from the Market or from another dubious, (do I dare say chinese forum, just an example)
And how clean is my code really?
And is all mods just legit just cuz they are from here?
I love that we have so many ppl having a desire to mess around with the OS, but I miss, as you say, the talk about having a go on security as well.
I dont know, but I do think that awareness, as you initial post direct us to, should be raised, as a natural step for any serious dev and users in general on XDA, to be more aware, of the code.
Im on my first year as an Android user, and ofcourse did have to gain root on my splendid Sensation. Why?, cuz I needed the security tools requiring root.
Ask again, why? Cuz I came from Winblows 7, and know what a jungle software is, and that is is indeed exploitable, like hell, you might say.
And Im gladd I did gain s-off and root, cuz its really really needed fo youre just a little concerned about your privacy in, mails, sms, location, usage pattern, netbanking, dropobox deposits of your ****, some might even be work related and therefore hold more than just your own privacy.
And then there is what you mentioned, our devices unique ID's, the intent "app install referrer" to "plug" you into admob/google analyzer and so on.
I love one guy here, Treve, who made the HTC tool for scanning for ****, Logging Test Tool, and in version 10, he made it aware of admob/mobclix/analytics, and my god it find a lot...
So Treve, please, if you read this, just go on, as every version you make is getting finer and finer.
We could learn from this guy, and others here that got more code-insight.
What we CAN do as a community at the very least, is to share our knowledge and tips for securing our phones.
HOST filtering, code scanning of apks and so on. using AV's and firewalls and so on.
Right from the start I noticed that Android is not a clean OS, nor is its app market, and I noticed this cuz I have another splendid little Linux system at hand, Smoothwall Express with url filtering and proxy enabled
and My god is Android and its aps LEAKING!
Have a look in your urlfilters on a standalone firewall the step after your wireless android phone, and watch how much **** is going on.
Well, I can tell you for a start that I have added atleast 100 new domains to my custom urlfilter, besides the casual downloadable HOST filters around the net, like the ones found in AdblockPlus and so on. But after android, heh, you need more than just advertising filtering, that much I can say.
Just as an example, like those you mentioned, I have one too, that I was made aware of by Avast on my phone tonight, that ChompSMS was being flagged as malware/trojan.
I thought, **** man, why this crap, Im quite fund of Chomp, really.
So I thought, no, imma let more that Avast on my phone have a go.
So I File Expert dump the full apk, and uploaded it for a scan on virustotal, just for the sake of it. And whatta'ya know, ClamAV, GData, Kaspersky, NOD32, and Sophos flagged it as that same Plankton.G variant as my on-phone Avast.
Great, I thought (sarkasm intended)
I thought a bit further and picked up APK Multi-Tool, had a decompile and a content-scan for just "http" in is readable code.
12 different domains is mentioned so far, and I didnt even poke in all of its xml's, just the smali's
I know android is by a far stretch advertising born, and ofcuz the app devs have a right to earn their money, no doubt about that, and I gladly pay for the good ****, like most ppl here believeably do, but.. 12 different .com's mentioned in its code is a no go for me.
I have earlier used Privacy Blocker, and Privacy Inspector from XEUDOXUS in the market, to make permission scanning, beside using LBE/HOST/Avast, and I like those two aps, the Inspector one is free but only can scan.
The paid Blocker can "repair" as a feature, but its not maintained enuff, so it often fails to make installable apks, so not really worth it for me anymore, but as a free too, it can tell you more about those permissions you mentioned.
But enuff said from me for now, lets just collect and share our tips and tricks, ALSO for security, not just developing ROM and mod's and hacks, as thou they are fine, if not to say, so cool and great, but, we need to be secure too.
Please do not polute the discussion with IOS vs Android and what not, cuz thats not the purpose of it, even thou it definitly concerns (g)A(r)pple products too.
Sincerely, Omnius
alex2792 said:
I'll give you OS X,but I've never heard of an iPhone virus while there are loads of malware on Android market.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk
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Iphones can get viruses they come through SMS's and other sources not as bad as android apple keeps there market much more under control, but everything is vulnerable i work in a security team for a big corp and believe me nothing is safe.
Check these articles out i just found them on google.
I remember a while ago maybe a year or so there was a huge security hole in IOS5 and Mac waited a long time to tell the public and release a patch. The one major problem with Apple is when there are security threats they really try to keep it hush...Iphone's OS is tight but not totally secure. Its not viruses either its moslty just malware that charges you tons of money in texting i saw once an iphone that turned into a bot and at midnight it would dial a 900 number and just sit there all night at like $20 bucks a minunte then disconnect when it felt the phone move.
http://www.mactrast.com/2010/07/iphone-virus-discovered-be-vigilant-and-seek-advice/
http://techfragments.com/news/982/Software/Apple_iPhone_Virus_Spreads_By_SMS_Messages.html
I'm going to fanboy MIUI for a second.
When you install an app you are presented with a screen (separate from the market) that allows you to toggle all the permissions an app ask for between Allowed/Ask/Disabled.
More roms should adopt this.
NB: I haven't checked CM9 so it might be a CM9 feature that MIUI has polished or it might be native to MIUI.
weedy2887 said:
I'm going to fanboy MIUI for a second.
When you install an app you are presented with a screen (separate from the market) that allows you to toggle all the permissions an app ask for between Allowed/Ask/Disabled.
More roms should adopt this.
NB: I haven't checked CM9 so it might be a CM9 feature that MIUI has polished or it might be native to MIUI.
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I wouldn't be so fast to praise MIUI.
weedy2887 said:
I'm going to fanboy MIUI for a second.
When you install an app you are presented with a screen (separate from the market) that allows you to toggle all the permissions an app ask for between Allowed/Ask/Disabled.
More roms should adopt this.
NB: I haven't checked CM9 so it might be a CM9 feature that MIUI has polished or it might be native to MIUI.
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The problem is the "Average Joe" doesn't even look at those or doesn't know what they mean. I see so many viruses/malware/open security holes just because of user error its insane. Almost 90% of security breaches or problems originate from the end users not paying attention or just not knowing or caring. Also another thing i see so much when new clients call me with there servers melting down and all there banking info being stolen is they haven't installed any updates on there servers since they were set up 2-5 years ago. I worked for a large industrial supply company and all there servers running MS Server 2008 no updates had been installed and they were using AVG free on there main SQL server...INSANE LOL
Then theirs the users, "my computer was fine until my friend on facebook wanted my SS# and mothers maiden name and insisted i open his email attachment, now its acting weird what do you think is wrong?"
Brutal
what is the 4g exploit that you are talking about? And is it only with wimax or is lte part of it as well?
Oneiricl said:
Malware is easy to take care of - check the apps you're downloading for what permissions they want. It's as simple as that.
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It's absolutely amazing that people are willing to put up with something so ridiculous.
Sent from my SGH-I897
Ladies and Gentlemen,
I am opening this discussion in order to not only receive some high-quality answers on the following questions, but also to learn what everyone does in order to ensure security and integrity of Apps on their phones (especially when working in environments where attacks are likely or possible due to intersting files on the phone or similar).
Here is my question: Let's suppose a phone is ROOTED, is locked with a Pattern, is updated daily, has TitaniumBackup installed, runs Trust as well as an Antivirus App and on top of that, installed Apps are monitored in a regular basis through TitaniumBackup. Is it even possible for law enforcements or hackers to install malware? If so, what would be necessary for them to do so? Physical access? Malformed Apps with matching signature? Other types of attacks (encouraging @He3556 the owner of Smartphone Attack Vector to chime in)?
Second question (hope @jcase can answer this): What would be the best way of preventing attacks of afforementioned groups and alike? What do YOU personally do?
SecUpwN said:
Ladies and Gentlemen,
I am opening this discussion in order to not only receive some high-quality answers on the following questions, but also to learn what everyone does in order to ensure security and integrity of Apps on their phones (especially when working in environments where attacks are likely or possible due to intersting files on the phone or similar).
Here is my question: Let's suppose a phone is ROOTED, is locked with a Pattern, is updated daily, has TitaniumBackup installed, runs Trust as well as an Antivirus App and on top of that, installed Apps are monitored in a regular basis through TitaniumBackup. Is it even possible for law enforcements or hackers to install malware? If so, what would be necessary for them to do so? Physical access? Malformed Apps with matching signature? Other types of attacks (encouraging @He3556 the owner of Smartphone Attack Vector to chime in)?
Second question (hope @jcase can answer this): What would be the best way of preventing attacks of afforementioned groups and alike? What do YOU personally do?
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Pe rooted, with common rooted apps installed? Would be easy to compromise that phone, as you have already done it for them.
Use a stock firmware, chose a vendor with a recent history of good security (Samsung, nexus, motorola in that order imo), keep it up to date, reduce the number of apps you run, don't root it. Disabled usb debugging.
jcase said:
Pe rooted, with common rooted apps installed? Would be easy to compromise that phone, as you have already done it for them.
Use a stock firmware, chose a vendor with a recent history of good security (Samsung, nexus, motorola in that order imo), keep it up to date, reduce the number of apps you run, don't root it. Disabled usb debugging.
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Thanks for answering. So that means, in short words, buy a phone and only update official stuff. How boring, I wouldn't be here on XDA then! But I get your point. I'm especially interested in the question of detection. If such agencies have installed anything that would leak data (and I'm sure it's fairly easy to do for them), how would they hide that specific App from the list of TitaniumBackup? Also, how would they trick the Trust Even Logger created by @Dark3n to not show any installation?
Most importantly though, is there some way of detecting such installations or manipulations afterwards?
There is growing so called "Zero-Day-Exploit" Industry, with names like vupen or FinFisher , the one who are working for the German Gov. but also for countries like Saudia Arabia and Iran. They know how to find exploits, nobody knows about (zero-day) and program trojans for all kinds of platforms. So antivirus software can't help here. And it is easy to bypass security if you know one of the bugs - and we know there are many of them in firmware, operating systems, plugins, frameworks and so on... Beside this "white" marked there is also a grey and black marked. So if you need to track your woman or steal information from other companies, you will find somebody with a tool for that, i suppose.
You would need a "Intrusion Detection Software" - sorry but this won't work for Smartphones, because there is a lot of calculation, data and energy needed - you find this special hardware in big data centers.
Do not root and do not install Apps you don't really need is still a good advice, specially when people don't know so much about all this.
Another way to sneak in is to compromise the users pc, that is (maybe) connected to the phone sometimes (work with iphone sync but also with android to change DNS and get SMS with e-tan's - you will find more info it in the media)
Or if you have the "power" you can can use the cloud services (iOS, Google, Windows or other 3rd party services) to steal user data (sms, pictures, GPS history...) or just let it sync the malware to the phone. So you don't have to break in directly.
What would be the best way of preventing attacks of afforementioned groups and alike?
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tomorrow i will have time, there are to many possibilities
Thanks for clarifying, @He3556!
Now I know that phones in general are hard to lock down for such agencies. Time to quote myself:
SecUpwN said:
Most importantly though, is there some way of detecting such installations or manipulations afterwards?
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Hey @He3556, if you've been following security news the past weeks, this topic here is becoming more relevant with each revelation. Since the trojan-coding company FinFisher has highly likely been hacked and some cool whisteblowers are publishing very sensitve data like price lists and handbooks on their Twitter account GammaGroupPR, more details of their secret software FinSpy Mobile is being revealed. And this is exactly the type of software that I am talking about here in this thread. I want to know how users can protect themselves from crap like that. According to the video that has been leaked, It is being installed through a fake update, or even through messages via E-Mail to "please" install this "very important update":
And just to make everyone more curious, FinSpy Mobile has been leaked on Twitter! It obviously works for all operating systems, including Android, Blackberry, Windows Mobile, and Symbian. Another trophy is source code of FinFly Web, which found its way the code hosting platform GitHub. It is designed to provide remote and covert infection of a Target System by using a wide range of web-based attacks. FinFly Web provides a point-and-click interface, enabling the Agent to easily create a custom infection code according to selected modules. Target Systems visiting a prepared website with the implemented infection code will be covertly infected with the configured software. Regarding FinSpy Mobile and similar software: How would law enforcements possibly attack a cautious member of XDA (or any other site)? I mean, people that have been in the field of flashing new ROMs, updating their firmware and recovery themselves, not installing strange APKs sent via E-Mail and controlling installed Apps through TitaniumBackup should be somewhat immune to such type of attacks, right?
It appears to me as if their software might work for the general masses, but highly-likely not on people like @jcase or other Android security-gurus. Since I linked you, I'd be very happy if you could expand on that a little. I am sure such companies might even have the possibility of messing with the baseband of a target phone through only knowing the phone number of a target. But I am really curious what their "standard procedure" is if they face a target with thorough Android knowledge, maybe even a security-enthusiastic Android developer. Wouldn't their only option be to manually manipulate the handset?
There are two methods to keep away all kinds of trojan and malware...
1. use a SIM with data connections only: There are SIM cards on the marked you can use in a USB Stick for Notebooks or tablets.
You won't have a cell phone number and can't receive SMS. You won't be able to use the circuit switched (GSM & UMTS-cs) part of your cell phone. For communication you have to use a VoIP provider - with Secure SIP and SRTP.
2. Web browser, Apps, e-mail client and all other connection must be use VPN.
But there is one more stepp to take.
The virtualization of all services and Apps you are using. This works like Team Viewer on a PC. The App is running on a cloud server while you only see the desktop of the remote controlled application. This technique is already used when you want to use flash with iOS device (photon, cloudbrowse, puffin and so on..)
More details about this you can find here: http://itwatch.info/Products/ReCAppS
But i am sure there are more projects about this out there...
He3556 said:
There are two methods to keep away all kinds of trojan and malware...
1. use a SIM with data connections only: There are SIM cards on the marked you can use in a USB Stick for Notebooks or tablets.
You won't have a cell phone number and can't receive SMS. You won't be able to use the circuit switched (GSM & UMTS-cs) part of your cell phone. For communication you have to use a VoIP provider - with Secure SIP and SRTP.
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I know this works, but the only guy who is so insane and is already doing that is probably @InvaderX.
Honestly, what's the purpose of a phone if I can't receive SMS and call anyone without internet connection?
He3556 said:
2. Web browser, Apps, e-mail client and all other connection must be use VPN.
But there is one more stepp to take.
The virtualization of all services and Apps you are using. This works like Team Viewer on a PC. The App is running on a cloud server while you only see the desktop of the remote controlled application. This technique is already used when you want to use flash with iOS device (photon, cloudbrowse, puffin and so on..)
More details about this you can find here: http://itwatch.info/Products/ReCAppS
But i am sure there are more projects about this out there...
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Better yet: Living under a rock should solve all these problems. Seriously though, can such law enforcement agencies silently update stuff on my phone (possibly baseband) that goes unnoticed even when using TitaniumBackup and flashing a fresh ROM every month? From the things you mentioned as for protection, I highly doubt that I'll move that way. And no matter how hard I try, the bad guys (or, to put it in the wording of those companies: the agencies that are "protecting our freedom") will likely always find a way in - even if that means tapping the phone through listining in on my calls or deploying an IMSI-Catcher. But talking about this makes me wonder: It seems as if the probability is high that most of the time they are selling a fake update to the target. Is there a convenient way of knowing that stuff like FinSpy Mobile has been installed, where such agencies can't possibly tinker with any records of what was happening on the phone? I especially check the Trust - Event Logger by @Dark3n very often. Could they change such records? Is there a better App to warn about unauthorizes access or (hidden) App installation?
Trust is not a security app!
If an attacker has root, you can just alter the database of apps like Trust, which would be the easiest way.
There are probably also ways to alter the system so it does not broadcast certain events(which is how Trust monitors most things).
It is just not build to withstand such attacks.
SecUpwN said:
Seriously though, can such law enforcement agencies silently update stuff on my phone (possibly baseband) that goes unnoticed
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Click to collapse
Maybe? But there are much easier ways if it is not desired to target specific persons.
I'll brain storm a bit for you:
I would divide the attack vectors into those that work with root and those that don't.
Without root apps can still do plenty of malicious actions, including tracking your position or uploading all files on your sdcard (INTERNET;SDCARD;LOCATION permissions) etc.
If an attacker gains root permission he could install rootkits, modify existing apps, inject malicious code into dex files of installed apps etc.
Basicly do what the hell he wants.
While not using a rooted device would certainly make it more difficult to do malicious things, it's doesn't prevent it.
A normal app you install could still root your phone through vulnerabilities. It works the same way apps such as TowelRoot or ZergRush root your phone.
Downloading new apps that request root is also very dangerous ofc, once you pressed "grant", it's too late, anything could have been done. So be wary when trying out new root apps of devs you don't know/trust?
Abusing trust in existing apps is probably the biggest danger.
The most obvious danger here is downloading apps you usually trust but from unknown sources.
Sure there could be signature issues when updating over your current app, but what if you don't have it installed? I could also think about a few ways to inject malicious code without altering the signature (did not try, just a thought, might be impossible).
The issue is that you probably wouldn't even notice, as the compromised app retains it's original functionality.
Want a botnet?
Inject malicious code into a popular root up that is paid, crack it and upload it somewhere.
While this more dangerous (or worth for an attacker) with root apps, it's still viable for non root apps, just pick one that already aquires many permissions.
It's way too easy, people constantly underestimate the danger of this. It's not all about piracy it's bad, it's a barn door sized security hole.
A bit more difficult variant would be abusing known security holes in existing apps that can be root or nonroot apps, such as modifying files the other apps uses, such that it executes your malicious code for you, so some type of code injection. First thought would be looking for root apps that use scripts or binary files and then check the permissions on those files to see whether they are writeable.
Now those are all ways to target a broad mass of users.
If a single user is the target, it would be more difficult, but there are still plenty of options:
- MITM attacks at public hotspots,
- Pressuring developers of apps you use. What dev wouldn't implement a security hole into an app of his, if a guy in a black suit comes up and points a gun to his head? Well that escalated quickly... But with "secret courts" and all the **** that happens secretly sanctioned or is just done by some agencies because they are above the law, is it really such an impossible scenario? The ends justify the means? Do they?
- My favorite plan yet, making a popular app themselves that they know you will try
It is usually never impossible, just a matter of resources and whether its unfeasible to spend so many resources on that goal.
edit: So the best course of action? Don't install anything you don't trust. Don't trust the manufactor either? Install a custom ROM, but as those often use binary blobs for certain parts of the software, it's not really a 100% solution... There could also be compromising hardware built in, but now I'm really climing up the tinfoil tree, but as recents new story suggest that the NSA is intercepting hardware packets from manufactors such as cisco to modify them, what's really impossible?
TL;DR Best course of action that is feasible to adhere to is probably to just not install stuff one doesn't know or trust.
edit2: More specific answers to your questions.
You might be able to monitor files changes on an a system level, but if your attacker gains highlevel priviledges, what keeps him from changing the monitoring system?
SecUpwN said:
Seriously though, can such law enforcement agencies silently update stuff on my phone (possibly baseband) that goes unnoticed even when using TitaniumBackup and flashing a fresh ROM every month?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
How does TiBu help prevent such injection? Flashing a new ROM would probably undo such changes, but what prevents "them" from just doing it again.
SecUpwN said:
And no matter how hard I try, the bad guys (or, to put it in the wording of those companies: the agencies that are "protecting our freedom") will likely always find a way in - even if that means tapping the phone through listining in on my calls or deploying an IMSI-Catcher.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is the thing, with enough resources, there is always a way.
SecUpwN said:
It seems as if the probability is high that most of the time they are selling a fake update to the target.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Exactly disguising as something legit is the cheapest way, "trojan horse".
SecUpwN said:
Is there a convenient way of knowing that stuff like FinSpy Mobile has been installed, where such agencies can't possibly tinker with any records of what was happening on the phone? I especially check the Trust - Event Logger by @Dark3n very often. Could they change such records? Is there a better App to warn about unauthorizes access or (hidden) App installation?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't know any surefire way to detect this. The issue is that with enough priviledges (which can be gained without authorization, zero day exploits are worth a lot money to "agencies" as well as criminal organisations, though I'm no longer sure where the difference is), you can just clean up your track of malicious behavior.
Whoa, this has to be the longest answer I've received since registering here. Huge thanks! Grab a coffee..
Dark3n said:
Trust is not a security app!
If an attacker has root, you can just alter the database of apps like Trust, which would be the easiest way.
There are probably also ways to alter the system so it does not broadcast certain events(which is how Trust monitors most things).
It is just not build to withstand such attacks.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ok, fair. Will keep it anyhow.
Dark3n said:
Maybe? But there are much easier ways if it is not desired to target specific persons.
I'll brain storm a bit for you:
I would divide the attack vectors into those that work with root and those that don't.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Just to mention it here: An awesome site to see which attack vectors and vulnerabilities exist is Smartphone Attack Vektor by @He3556.
Dark3n said:
Without root apps can still do plenty of malicious actions, including tracking your position or uploading all files on your sdcard (INTERNET;SDCARD;LOCATION permissions) etc.
If an attacker gains root permission he could install rootkits, modify existing apps, inject malicious code into dex files of installed apps etc.
Basicly do what the hell he wants.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ok, I get the point. Also like @jcase already pointed out: If we root, we pwn ourselves. And if we don't, too.
Dark3n said:
While not using a rooted device would certainly make it more difficult to do malicious things, it's doesn't prevent it.
A normal app you install could still root your phone through vulnerabilities. It works the same way apps such as TowelRoot or ZergRush root your phone.
Downloading new apps that request root is also very dangerous ofc, once you pressed "grant", it's too late, anything could have been done. So be wary when trying out new root apps of devs you don't know/trust?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I only install trusted Applications.
Dark3n said:
Abusing trust in existing apps is probably the biggest danger.
The most obvious danger here is downloading apps you usually trust but from unknown sources.
Sure there could be signature issues when updating over your current app, but what if you don't have it installed? I could also think about a few ways to inject malicious code without altering the signature (did not try, just a thought, might be impossible).
The issue is that you probably wouldn't even notice, as the compromised app retains it's original functionality.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Guess if I use the F-Droid Store I should be pretty safe, right? But don't worry, I don't rely on it - as for me, smartphones are huge bugs with touchscreens. That is why I also built a phone signal blocking pouch for myself and friends. Further good recommendations can be found on the bottom of my GitHub.
Dark3n said:
Want a botnet?
Inject malicious code into a popular root up that is paid, crack it and upload it somewhere.
While this more dangerous (or worth for an attacker) with root apps, it's still viable for non root apps, just pick one that already aquires many permissions.
It's way too easy, people constantly underestimate the danger of this. It's not all about piracy it's bad, it's a barn door sized security hole.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Actually, no. I already have two or three. Or maybe even four?
Dark3n said:
A bit more difficult variant would be abusing known security holes in existing apps that can be root or nonroot apps, such as modifying files the other apps uses, such that it executes your malicious code for you, so some type of code injection. First thought would be looking for root apps that use scripts or binary files and then check the permissions on those files to see whether they are writeable.
Now those are all ways to target a broad mass of users.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Good to know we've come to an end here. Reading all this makes me want to throw my phone out of the window.
Dark3n said:
If a single user is the target, it would be more difficult, but there are still plenty of options:
- MITM attacks at public hotspots,
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I DON'T use public hotspots. Why? Because you can be almost certain that stuff will be logged and analyzed once you use that. Over here in my town, we've got a HUGE Apple Store. And guess what - FREE WIFI for everyone! Yeyyy... not.
- Pressuring developers of apps you use. What dev wouldn't implement a security hole into an app of his, if a guy in a black suit comes up and points a gun to his head? Well that escalated quickly... But with "secret courts" and all the **** that happens secretly sanctioned or is just done by some agencies because they are above the law, is it really such an impossible scenario? The ends justify the means? Do they?
You are right, threats against family, friends and relatives are a no-go. If I remember correctly, something similar had happened to my beloved XDA developer @idcrisis who invented CrossBreeder. He left development of his toolset because starnge things occured in his life which he linked to his development. Shortly after leaving his project, he proposed a new license: The Aware License. Hope this guy is still living a happy life, though. Added to the above security-issues: Trust NOONE! How come? Well, just read this stunning story I discovered yesterday where a US critical infrastructure company last year revealed that its star developer had outsourced his own job to a Chinese subcontractor and was spending all his work time playing around on the internet adn surfing cat videos. ^^
Dark3n said:
- My favorite plan yet, making a popular app themselves that they know you will try
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't quite get what you meanb by that. Please clarify, it sounds interesting.
Dark3n said:
It is usually never impossible, just a matter of resources and whether its unfeasible to spend so many resources on that goal.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The way I see it: The only thing that we have no real access to, is the baseband. I am sure that these are full of backdoors and switches for agencies that they just need to trigger - just like the Samsung Galaxy Backdoor discovered by Replicant.
Dark3n said:
edit: So the best course of action? Don't install anything you don't trust. Don't trust the manufactor either? Install a custom ROM, but as those often use binary blobs for certain parts of the software, it's not really a 100% solution...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Nope, I don't trust the manufacturer either. And I am SICK of bloatware! hence, I am a happy user of AOKP since several years - but regarding the binary blobs, I would certainly love to try out Replicant (sadly not yet available for the HTC One).
Dark3n said:
There could also be compromising hardware built in, but now I'm really climing up the tinfoil tree, but as recents new story suggest that the NSA is intercepting hardware packets from manufactors such as cisco to modify them, what's really impossible?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Nothing is impossible, everything can be done. A wise man once said: Everything you can imagine, will happen.
Dark3n said:
TL;DR Best course of action that is feasible to adhere to is probably to just not install stuff one doesn't know or trust.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Good advice, I already do follow that one. As already said, if I were a spy company, I'd just team up with manufacturers of basebands..
Dark3n said:
You might be able to monitor files changes on an a system level, but if your attacker gains highlevel priviledges, what keeps him from changing the monitoring system?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Highly-likely nothing. I already know that there is not much I can do to prevent them to get in, but at least I do want to detect them - and having such a detection mechanism raises the bar in disguising their actions even further - and who knows, maybe they're not interested anymore then?
Dark3n said:
How does TiBu help prevent such injection? Flashing a new ROM would probably undo such changes, but what prevents "them" from just doing it again.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not much.
Dark3n said:
This is the thing, with enough resources, there is always a way.
Exactly disguising as something legit is the cheapest way, "trojan horse".
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Absolutely right. But what I am really curious of: How do people from the security-community really protect their phones? Do you have friends that are using their phones to just communicate via VPN and VOIP, not sending SMS and never calling people? Perfect place for @InvaderX to chime in, he told me before to really do a combination of that approach.
Dark3n said:
I don't know any surefire way to detect this. The issue is that with enough priviledges (which can be gained without authorization, zero day exploits are worth a lot money to "agencies" as well as criminal organisations, though I'm no longer sure where the difference is), you can just clean up your track of malicious behavior.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sigh.. mobile phones are a total threat to humanity, I get it..
At least I am not the only one paranoid about this kind of thing. LOL
lostangelintx said:
At least I am not the only one paranoid about this kind of thing. LOL
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It doesn't have much to do with "Paranoia". The very reason you started to care about this, is because phones are in fact very insecure devices - most people just don't realize or care about it. Another very interesting thread I found lately: Android Security for Conscious Mind.
a tool against 0-day exploits
don't freak out to early - this tool is only for windows desktops.
But at least it shows how it could work for mobile devices, too.
It is called Enhanced Mitigation Experience Toolkit (EMET 5.0) ...is a utility that helps prevent vulnerabilities in software from being successfully exploited.
These technologies function as special protections and obstacles that an exploit author must defeat to exploit software vulnerabilities. These security mitigation technologies do not guarantee that vulnerabilities cannot be exploited. However, they work to make exploitation as difficult as possible to perform.
SSL/TLS certificate pinning - This feature is intended to detect (and stop, with EMET 5.0) man-in-the-middle attacks that are leveraging the public key infrastructure (PKI).
Ok, they do not guarantee 100% security - but who could? Even this software comes from Microsoft, it's still a good solution and closes the gap between anti-virus, firewall and keeping your software updated.
Here is a test from 2010 (EMET 2.0) http://www.rationallyparanoid.com/articles/emet-testing.html
And one of 2014 http://www.offensive-security.com/vulndev/disarming-enhanced-mitigation-experience-toolkit-emet/
Does anybody know a APP for Android, iOS, WP8 or BB?
Just a small side note:
In regard to device security vs. rooting.
There are essentially 2 schools of thought. On the one side we have those who believe we should trust the device manufacturers experience and knowledge to keep malware out of AOS, and you phone from spilling your data when stolen, which also means keeping users from rooting their devices, simply because they know security better, than the average user. (I think @jcase may be one of those, but he'd have to answer for himself.) On the other hand we have people like me, who firmly believe that the best way to keep your device secure is by being rooted, since we cannot trust anyone, especially large companies who scream "TRUST US". For us, we own the device and everything it does, and that your phone should not be able to send a single photon of radiation, without your permission. Then at least we have the choice to provide our own security by Firewalls, open source baseband, and encrypted phone calls etc. So no, this is not part of the majority of phone owners. But we think it should be. So who's right? Well, we're both right of course. What we need is to be able to make this choice at the time of purchase, and independent of the device you like. To be able to choose if you have a fully open device that you can secure on your own or if you like one that is claimed as secure, but you will never be able to check or control on your own. But unfortunately, this is not possible in most circumstances.
I trust neither the ODMs, nor the custom roms. However I KNOW the average custom rom is just as if not MORE vulnerable than current stock roms, add su into the mix and it is without a doubt more vulnerable. Show me a custom rom dev that claims he ships a secure firmware, and I'll show you someone ignorant of the facts. Ask most of them what CTS is, and they will look at you like you are referencing 18th century medical terms.
That is my stance. In regards to root making a device more vulnerable, I can back that statement time and time again. From key compromises of the superuser apps, to vulnerabilities in the app, to vulns in the su binaries, to vulns in apps that typical make su requests, to stupid users who will grant it to anyone. Having any access point to "root" makes turning a small vuln to a complete compromise relatively easy.
E:V:A said:
Just a small side note:
In regard to device security vs. rooting.
There are essentially 2 schools of thought. On the one side we have those who believe we should trust the device manufacturers experience and knowledge to keep malware out of AOS, and you phone from spilling your data when stolen, which also means keeping users from rooting their devices, simply because they know security better, than the average user. (I think @jcase may be one of those, but he'd have to answer for himself.) On the other hand we have people like me, who firmly believe that the best way to keep your device secure is by being rooted, since we cannot trust anyone, especially large companies who scream "TRUST US". For us, we own the device and everything it does, and that your phone should not be able to send a single photon of radiation, without your permission. Then at least we have the choice to provide our own security by Firewalls, open source baseband, and encrypted phone calls etc. So no, this is not part of the majority of phone owners. But we think it should be. So who's right? Well, we're both right of course. What we need is to be able to make this choice at the time of purchase, and independent of the device you like. To be able to choose if you have a fully open device that you can secure on your own or if you like one that is claimed as secure, but you will never be able to check or control on your own. But unfortunately, this is not possible in most circumstances.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
@jcase : So I think we agree on that what you say, but from another perspective, we can ask ourselves whether or not a stupid user with root, can possibly endanger a smart user with root? I think this is not generally possible, apart from some automated DDOS attack, which would ultimately originate from a smart user with root, using the stupid user as a transport.
To what extent should ODM's be able to decide who is a smart root user and stupid root user? (And regardless their decision, why should we believe them?) There may not be an answer here, but the discussion is interesting also from a political point of view. How much should the "government" be responsible for a certain individual's action, regardless of their intelligence? Personally I think they're not, and should only provide security to prevent individuals from directly hurting each other, and not preventing them from hurting themselves, if they choose to do so.
Reading all this, it makes me wonder if the antivirus apps help at all..
stefeman said:
Reading all this, it makes me wonder if the antivirus apps help at all..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Let's put it this way.
In 6 years of heavy 24/7 PC use, my anti-virus have prevented me from a "possible" remote exploit exactly once, while having annoyed me with lengthy uninterruptible scans and ignoring my ignore settings about a 1000 times, due to adware and various other false positives. Then only god knows how many different countries governments are already present in my PC. Go figure. And yes, I have tweaked every possible setting and tried multiple well know AV's.
Forget AV's and get a good FW and with a well tuned host file, and well tuned common sense.
E:V:A said:
@jcase : So I think we agree on that what you say, but from another perspective, we can ask ourselves whether or not a stupid user with root, can possibly endanger a smart user with root? I think this is not generally possible, apart from some automated DDOS attack, which would ultimately originate from a smart user with root, using the stupid user as a transport.
To what extent should ODM's be able to decide who is a smart root user and stupid root user? (And regardless their decision, why should we believe them?) There may not be an answer here, but the discussion is interesting also from a political point of view. How much should the "government" be responsible for a certain individual's action, regardless of their intelligence? Personally I think they're not, and should only provide security to prevent individuals from directly hurting each other, and not preventing them from hurting themselves, if they choose to do so.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Really, I dont want to do this again, this conversation.
Most stupid people don't realize they are stupid, they assume they are smart. (We are all stupid in some regards).
I think I could endanger a user from root, pretty sure I can either screw the phone up, or possibly catch it on fire. If it had a sim in it, and was on the network I am certain I could make them regret ever rooting their device.
Here is a question, how many of you understand how these unlocks/exploits work?
I sometimes leave messages hidden in mine, and have only had ONE person reply to the hidden message, out of 100,000s of runs. People don't even know what they are running to gain root, let alone any idea what these "rom devs" do.
Open source is the answer right? Everyone can read the code, and everyone does! Thats why no backdoors or vulns have ever been in open source projects. Every open source project gets a line by line audit by a team of security professionals.</sarcasm>
I'll join back in when someone shows me a custom rom/open device that has the same or better security precautions taken by leading ODMs. Until then, it is generally just as easy or (generally) easier to abuse and exploit one of these custom roms floating around.
stefeman said:
Reading all this, it makes me wonder if the antivirus apps help at all..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Won't help a lick for anything originating from a government.
Hi, I am wondering to what extent Google has built into the android OS, ways of collecting data on the user, even when the user does not open a google account and uses only side loaded apps. ? Does anyone know the answer to this?
jaifora said:
Hi, I am wondering to what extent Google has built into the android OS, ways of collecting data on the user, even when the user does not open a google account and uses only side loaded apps. ? Does anyone know the answer to this?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Read this thread, even if it's about Xiaomi, on the 2nd page you will find your answer!
setmov said:
Read this thread, even if it's about Xiaomi, on the 2nd page you will find your answer!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I've read trough the second page and couldn't find what you're aiming at. So far as I can see it's only about xiaomi ROMs and their proprietary apps, that cause the security holes.
nerotNS said:
I've read trough the second page and couldn't find what you're aiming at. So far as I can see it's only about xiaomi ROMs and their proprietary apps, that cause the security holes.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What you were asking is actually just the same! Short answer: Google is in your phone at a API level, and there is no way to get rid of it!
setmov said:
What you were asking is actually just the same! Short answer: Google is in your phone at a API level, and there is no way to get rid of it!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's not the same as the API itself is not the thing that sends the data. The apps that USE those APIs are the ones that route the data.
The apps on the thread
* AntHalService
* XiaomiServiceFramework
* Cleanmaster
* com.xiaomi.gamecenter.adk.service
* com.duokan.airkan.phone
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
None of them are Google apps. All of them are 3rd party. For example, my nexus 4 with stock Android doesn't have these apps, therefore no data is sent.
nerotNS said:
It's not the same as the API itself is not the thing that sends the data. The apps that USE those APIs are the ones that route the data.
The apps on the thread
None of them are Google apps. All of them are 3rd party.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
An app has not to be Google proprietary. Android is!!! Are you aware of what info are sent out of your android phone without you will be able to intercept them? You are right, apps are sending info, as also Google per se are collecting info, all the time. Please, don't believe me, actually I'm suggesting you not to believe me, but sooner or later, you'll see! There is no firewall, root, or any other trick able to stop them or control them! The only way is to strip Android apart, and recreate a new API, but then, bye bye functionality!
setmov said:
An app has not to be Google proprietary. Android is!!! Are you aware of what info are sent out of your android phone without you will be able to intercept them? You are right, apps are sending info, as also Google per se are collecting info, all the time. Please, don't believe me, actually I'm suggesting you not to believe me, but sooner or later, you'll see! There is no firewall, root, or any other trick able to stop them or control them! The only way is to strip Android apart, and recreate a new API, but then, bye bye functionality!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Android is open source, if there were serious security exploits they would have already been found and patched out. If not by Google itself, then by 3rd party developers. It's true that Google collects data like your location, but ONLY if you allow it. Also, even if you're correct, disabling the internet will help anyone who's paranoid enough. Besides, the xiaomi thread deals in stuff a lot more serious (eg. money) than the misc data such as the % of time you spent playing a game. All in all, while it's possible to exploit Android and steal data from incautious users, Android as a system doesn't sell or give your key info (user, pass, card no etc.) to anyone.
nerotNS said:
Android is open source, if there were serious security exploits they would have already been found and patched out. If not by Google itself, then by 3rd party developers. It's true that Google collects data like your location, but ONLY if you allow it. Also, even if you're correct, disabling the internet will help anyone who's paranoid enough. Besides, the xiaomi thread deals in stuff a lot more serious (eg. money) than the misc data such as the % of time you spent playing a game. All in all, while it's possible to exploit Android and steal data from incautious users, Android as a system doesn't sell or give your key info (user, pass, card no etc.) to anyone.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's right, we don't have to be afraid of Google to use our data like Xiaomi, but....here is what I know for sure:
(copied from Xiaomi thread)
The point is that is not important what OS you are using, or what is the phone manufacturer. All of them send your data to their "masters". Said that, let's take a look at google. The first time you boot your precious phone, and you connect to the net, Google will receive your IMEI, your phone number, your location (based on network or gps, depends) an all the data you have on your phone. Ok, I know, I know, they are the owners of the Android OS, and they can do whatever they want, and you will never know what they are doing if you have a stock rom, You will not know what they are doing as a power user with highly customized rom as well. Why? Well, because their API. To be clear, the API, also known as "application programming interface (API) specifies a software component in terms of its operations, their inputs and outputs and underlying types. Its main purpose is to define a set of functionalities that are independent of their respective implementation, allowing both definition and implementation to vary without compromising each other.(as per wikipedia)" in not always an "open source project" and the Android core platform API is not "open source" at all, even in the "AOSP" project. The point is that when you use an android platform, if you want it or not, Google receive your data. Let me go further....a month or so ago, Google has implemented their Gmail policy, and started a new monitoring program against pedophilia, and at my point of view, this is a good thing, but, you have to know what's going on. actually they scan every email in your inbox and to or from their Gmail service searching for clues. If they find something, then you're screwed, because they know who you are. Believe me, they know! But this is not the point, so, where they store all the infos on you, and your Gmail account, when they find nothing? Oh, of course on their servers in the US!!! Based on the Patriot Act, the "Agencies" do not need any kind of "court order" to take a peek inside your life. They can do whatever they want, and actually they are doing it. Google will never say NO, and it's obvious why. Based on what is above mentioned, all the US based companies do the same. Unfortunately, the most of the world use Android, even if the manufacturer is Chinese or Vietnamese or whatever else. If you strip Android apart because all of that and you want your privacy back, you will find an interesting thing, that your Android will no more work correctly, and you will find it unusable. This is exactly because the core functionalities that spy on us. We can discuss this as much as we want, but these are facts. To be completely sure that no one is spying on you, someone would have to rebuild the whole Android system, but without a lot of money and the right "crew" this will never happen. Same thing you can expect from Apple (no need to mention the leakage of their cloud system) or Microsoft. Xiaomi, also use services that need your personal data...cloud, sms, mms, whatever, and by buying their product you agreed with them. They will not stole your credit card, but their "agencies" will know who you are, and what you do. But, to be honest, they will do you nothing if you are a non-Chinese citizen. I have never seen Chinese Agencies doing something to the rest of the world, but I have seen US agencies doing bad things to their citizens and the rest of the world. So, let's be honest and admit it, as much as we talk about laws, no one is protected by them. If you are gonna buy a phone, you have to face the fact that you will be under surveillance and monitored. If you have the luck and you live in Switzerland, then you're ok, if not, well....face it, you are SOL. You have just to understand that no provider, manufacturer or OS developer will never solve this issue, because there is no interest.
About AOSP: (from their site!!!)
- First, the software gets built into a system image for a device, and put through various forms of certification, including government regulatory certification for the regions the phones will be deployed. It also goes through operator testing. -really? YES!
- Once the release is approved by the regulators and operators, the manufacturer begins mass producing devices, and we turn to releasing the source code. hmm....
- In some releases, core platform APIs will be ready far enough in advance that we can push the source code out for an early look in advance of the device's release; however in others, this isn't possible. - hahahaha, ask yourself why!!!
And this is just for start. This is not an app-related issue, we are talking about Android CORE! I love Android, I am using it actively and I am happy with it, it's just that sometimes I feel that this is not fair, but hey, who am I to told them what is or it's not fair? Is not a matter of OS, nor device. All have the same core functionality! NO PRIVACY for them! Accept it or not, these are facts.
I'll start with this:
First, the software gets built into a system image for a device, and put through various forms of certification, including government regulatory certification for the regions the phones will be deployed. It also goes through operator testing. Once the release is approved by the regulators and operators, the manufacturer begins mass producing devices.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Government regulatory certification means that the device being certified is built in compliance with the laws of a specific country. That includes building materials, but is mostly focused on radio frequencies. This is to ensure that you don't get a "wild" device with random frequencies (since it has various radios for ex. GSM, GPS, Wi-Fi etc.) which can disrupt the normal functionality of a GSM tower for example. It also ensures that the device is safe (that's what we need FCC for), in terms of radio waves radiation. Operator testing means that when the device is being sold via a carrier like Verizon, AT&T etc., it is compliant with their proprietary software (more commonly known as bloatware) as well as that the device will work properly on their frequency bands. This is the main reason OTAs for Carrier devices are usually quite late compared to the "stock" or OEM devices.
Now about that Gmail scanning service, it doesn't mean that they STORE the results of the scan, they could be read only, meaning that their bot goes over the contents, but doesn't save anything on their servers (this was an issue earlier, but due to lawsuits, Google had to stop saving data, and delete the data already saved).
Next, it's true that Google receives your IMEI, but only AFTER you log in to your Google account. And this is not that they can sell it to someone, but to help identify that particular device on your account for uses of Google services (for example the Google Play web interface; if you had two same device models on your account how would you know which is which?), and IMEI is easy to get and since it's unique it fits the purpose. Your location is used for the same purpose, and even that is not pinpointed exact location but approximate location (which serves the purpose, but isn't intrusive). There is also the use of services such as the Android Device Manager which is a good thing, since it helps find and lock lost/stolen devices. Again, for this you need a unique identifier, and location (in this case precise).
Also, depending on your country of residence they DO have to get at least a court order with reasons for the investigation in order to access your files.
Further down the road, an API can't do anything by itself, it's sort of something that enables an APP to do something. Now that's a big difference, because you can't say "That API sent my data". It' the app that USES the specific API that transmits the data to a 3rd party. That's two worlds apart, because an app we can easily block via a firewall or even delete it completely if we find the need to.
Finally, agencies such as the NSA, FBI, or any other state agency don't have much interest in an ordinary person. There just isn't much to find about a regular citizen, as they don't really care about your every day life (setting up private meetings, sending pics to each other etc.).
nerotNS said:
I'll start with this:
Government regulatory certification means that the device being certified is build and in compliance with the laws of the specific country. That includes building materials, but is mostly focused on radio frequencies. This is to ensure that you don't get a "wild" device with random frequencies (since it has various radios for ex. GSM, GPS, Wi-Fi etc.) which can disrupt the normal functionality of a GSM tower for example. It also ensures that the device is safe (that's what we need FCC for), in terms of radio waves radiation. Operator testing means that when the device is being sold via a carrier like Verizon, AT&T etc., it is compliant with their proprietary software (more commonly known as bloatware) as well as that the device will work properly on their frequency bands. This is the main reason OTAs for Carrier devices are usually quite late compared to the "stock" or OEM devices.
Now about that Gmail scanning service, it doesn't mean that they STORE the results of the scan, they could be read only, meaning that their bot goes over the contents, but doesn't save anything on their servers (this was an issue earlier, but due to lawsuits, Google had to stop saving data, and delete the data already saved).
Next, it's true that Google receives your IMEI, but only AFTER you log in to your Google account. And this is not that they can sell it to someone, but to help identify that particular device on your account for uses of Google services (for example the Google Play web interface; if you had two same device models on your account how would you know which is which?), and IMEI is easy to get and since it's unique it fits the purpose. Your location is used for the same purpose, and even that is not pinpointed exact location but approximate location (which serves the purpose, but isn't intrusive). There is also the use of services such as the Android Device Manager which is a good thing, since it helps find and lock lost/stolen devices. Again, for this you need a unique identifier, and location (in this case precise).
Also, depending on your country of residence they DO have to get at least a court order with reasons for the investigation in order to access your files.
Further down the road, an API can't do anything by itself, it's sort of something that enables an APP to do something. Now that's a big difference, because you can't say "That API sent my data". It' the app that USES the specific API that transmits the data to a 3rd party. That's two worlds apart, because an app we can easily block via a firewall or even delete it completely if we find the need to.
Finally, agencies such as the NSA, FBI, or any other state agency don't have much interest in an ordinary person. There just isn't much to find about a regular citizen, as they don't really care about your every day life (setting up private meetings, sending pics to each other etc.).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
@nerotNS I am not going to make a discussion with you, on some points you are right, on others, you're very wrong! I would love to be like you!
So, between you, you seem to be saying that an android phone can definitely send info to Google via an app, but you disagree on whether there is anything built into the API which sends info to Google independently of any app which can be clearly seen in the OS. I am wondering if there is anyone who actually knows the answer to this, through being involved in the development of the OS, other than a Google employee who may not be free to tell the truth, if the answer would be unpopular. I wonder if a user can be free of their snooping simply by not opening an account or using any of their products, or whether the only solution is to wait for a truly independent developer to produce a stable, quality device?
QUOTE=nerotNS;56965212]I'll start with this:
Government regulatory certification means that the device being certified is built in compliance with the laws of a specific country. That includes building materials, but is mostly focused on radio frequencies. This is to ensure that you don't get a "wild" device with random frequencies (since it has various radios for ex. GSM, GPS, Wi-Fi etc.) which can disrupt the normal functionality of a GSM tower for example. It also ensures that the device is safe (that's what we need FCC for), in terms of radio waves radiation. Operator testing means that when the device is being sold via a carrier like Verizon, AT&T etc., it is compliant with their proprietary software (more commonly known as bloatware) as well as that the device will work properly on their frequency bands. This is the main reason OTAs for Carrier devices are usually quite late compared to the "stock" or OEM devices.
Now about that Gmail scanning service, it doesn't mean that they STORE the results of the scan, they could be read only, meaning that their bot goes over the contents, but doesn't save anything on their servers (this was an issue earlier, but due to lawsuits, Google had to stop saving data, and delete the data already saved).
Next, it's true that Google receives your IMEI, but only AFTER you log in to your Google account. And this is not that they can sell it to someone, but to help identify that particular device on your account for uses of Google services (for example the Google Play web interface; if you had two same device models on your account how would you know which is which?), and IMEI is easy to get and since it's unique it fits the purpose. Your location is used for the same purpose, and even that is not pinpointed exact location but approximate location (which serves the purpose, but isn't intrusive). There is also the use of services such as the Android Device Manager which is a good thing, since it helps find and lock lost/stolen devices. Again, for this you need a unique identifier, and location (in this case precise).
Also, depending on your country of residence they DO have to get at least a court order with reasons for the investigation in order to access your files.
Further down the road, an API can't do anything by itself, it's sort of something that enables an APP to do something. Now that's a big difference, because you can't say "That API sent my data". It' the app that USES the specific API that transmits the data to a 3rd party. That's two worlds apart, because an app we can easily block via a firewall or even delete it completely if we find the need to.
Finally, agencies such as the NSA, FBI, or any other state agency don't have much interest in an ordinary person. There just isn't much to find about a regular citizen, as they don't really care about your every day life (setting up private meetings, sending pics to each other etc.).[/QUOTE]
So, between you, you seem to be saying that an android phone can definitely send info to Google via an app, but you disagree on whether there is anything built into the API which sends info to Google independently of any app which can be clearly seen in the OS. I am wondering if there is anyone who actually knows the answer to this, through being involved in the development of the OS, other than a Google employee who may not be free to tell the truth, if the answer would be unpopular. I wonder if a user can be free of their snooping simply by not opening an account or using any of their products, or whether the only solution is to wait for a truly independent developer to produce a stable, quality device?
It's not about API, it's about what data apps can access and what is sent over the internet, and it actually goes much further than what most people think.
Use apps like Network Log or Network Connections and give Wire Shark a try, and track which IPs apps connect to.
You'll be surprised...
On my Samsung, after I had removed all the google spyware (erggghhh, I mean google apps) and about 150 stock apps, I saw that the kernel was connecting to some google related IPs and to google's DNS, eventhough I had set the phone to use Open DNS in the resolv.conf file, and that the android system was calling home (read "at google's central office in mountain view, California") everytime I connected (note that my phone had never been linked to any google account whatsoever).
Some of the IPs could easily be blocked by using a firewall script, but for some others and for the DNS leaks I had to patch some jars in /system/framework.
One thing is that it differs from phone to phone, I've checked on a Lenovo and there is much less of such unwanted connections.
Is it embedded in the AOSP code? Maybe, I don't use AOSP or CM based roms so I can't tell, but what I can tell is that it's funny to see people screaming about Xiamoi when it's the same elsewhere.
Anyway, if one wants to protect oneself it's possible albeit a bit involved.
First is first, root.
Second, use Xprivacy and a good firewall like AF+.
Then, make a script to block inbound and outbound disturbing IPs.
So, am I good to go now?
Not yet, let's get a step further...
You need now to decompile some of your system apps and some of your jars, and track lines refering to specific websites and DNS.
- Note that if you really are privacy concerned you should uninstall as many system apps as you can (only 11 left on my phone) and replace them with third part apps that are much easier to restrict and have less privileges. Forget about google spyware (erggghhh and sorry again, I mean google apps), facebook spyware-apk, what's app etc... -
That's it?
Still not, there's more!
Xprivacy is a fantastic tool, but due to android limitations it can't restrict ids for the android system.
Have tou ever heard of android.id, build.serial, ro.boot.serialno, ro.serialno etc.? And what about the serial_no and the mac in the efs folder? And the cpu info in proc? And the serial_number in sys?
- I'll deliberately stay vague on those matters, only people that know what they are doing should mess with that kind of stuff. -
Those are ids specific to your device and of course they identify you, that's what they are meant for!
An example, have a look at the wpa_supplicant.conf localised in data/misc/wifi. You'll see that it has your serial_number which means, and experts please correct me if I am wrong, that everytime you connect on the wifi your serial_number gets sent.
You want to change it manually?
Yeah sure, edit it directly from the file. Now start you wifi and check again the serial_number, you are back to the original value.:cyclops:
I'm not sure whether, if your firewall script is well done and if Xprivacy has been well configured (read "VERY restrictively configured"), those ids leaks or not, but since I like to have more than one protection layer I've edited all of them.
Some ids are easily changed using setpropex or an init script, some are harder and require boot.img editing, but I won't explain any further since as written above only people knowing what they do should play with that stuff.
If all of the above has been done I don't think that anyone can get much data from your phone, but I'm not a security expert and I'd like to hear what you guys think.
Note 1
Trust no one.
I found that apps I had created for testing purposes were requesting my serial, my MCC and my MNC upon installation, eventhough I hadn't given them access to that data neither in the code nor in the android manifest), and then I found that nearly all apps request the same.
Does it come from the IDEs (I have tried with two different brands and it was the same) or does it come from the android OS itself?
I have risen the issue here but nobody seemed interested and nobody blessed me with any relevant answer. Was it that they thought I was unworthy of their attention, or was it that they just didn't know? Or both? Who knows but once more I tell you, TRUST NOONE!!!!
Note 2
Someone said that the NSA and other agencies don't have much interest in a regular person which is true, but they nevertheless gather as much info as they can about as many people as they can, just in case.
In the 50's it was illegal to be a communist in the USA, if cell phones had existed at that time Mac Carthy would have found his job greatly eased.
During the Bush era it was either one was with him or one was against him and was dubbed a bad american (even if one wasn't a terrorist but simply agains Bush's policies), with Guantanamo around the corner if one was suspected of too much empathy with the arab victims.
What's next?
They decide what is subversive and what isn't, and maybe one day you could be subversive because you are against capitalism, or against globalisation, or sympathetic to the people that defend their land agains US invasions and US backed puppet governments.
Or because you rooted your phone?
Keep your eyes open and stay aware guys...
Well, you can always turn on Androids built in Device Encryption (if you don't mind slower r/w speeds). Combine that with a firewall and what you mentioned above and I think you're good.
unclefab said:
It's not about API, it's about what data apps can access and what is sent over the internet, and it actually goes much further than what most people think.
Use apps like Network Log or Network Connections and give Wire Shark a try, and track which IPs apps connect to.
You'll be surprised...
On my Samsung, after I had removed all the google spyware (erggghhh, I mean google apps) and about 150 stock apps, I saw that the kernel was connecting to some google related IPs and to google's DNS, eventhough I had set the phone to use Open DNS in the resolv.conf file, and that the android system was calling home (read "at google's central office in mountain view, California") everytime I connected (note that my phone had never been linked to any google account whatsoever).
Some of the IPs could easily be blocked by using a firewall script, but for some others and for the DNS leaks I had to patch some jars in /system/framework.
One thing is that it differs from phone to phone, I've checked on a Lenovo and there is much less of such unwanted connections.
Is it embedded in the AOSP code? Maybe, I don't use AOSP or CM based roms so I can't tell, but what I can tell is that it's funny to see people screaming about Xiamoi when it's the same elsewhere.
Anyway, if one wants to protect oneself it's possible albeit a bit involved.
First is first, root.
Second, use Xprivacy and a good firewall like AF+.
Then, make a script to block inbound and outbound disturbing IPs.
So, am I good to go now?
Not yet, let's get a step further...
You need now to decompile some of your system apps and some of your jars, and track lines refering to specific websites and DNS.
- Note that if you really are privacy concerned you should uninstall as many system apps as you can (only 11 left on my phone) and replace them with third part apps that are much easier to restrict and have less privileges. Forget about google spyware (erggghhh and sorry again, I mean google apps), facebook spyware-apk, what's app etc... -
That's it?
Still not, there's more!
Xprivacy is a fantastic tool, but due to android limitations it can't restrict ids for the android system.
Have tou ever heard of android.id, build.serial, ro.boot.serialno, ro.serialno etc.? And what about the serial_no and the mac in the efs folder? And the cpu info in proc? And the serial_number in sys?
- I'll deliberately stay vague on those matters, only people that know what they are doing should mess with that kind of stuff. -
Those are ids specific to your device and of course they identify you, that's what they are meant for!
An example, have a look at the wpa_supplicant.conf localised in data/misc/wifi. You'll see that it has your serial_number which means, and experts please correct me if I am wrong, that everytime you connect on the wifi your serial_number gets sent.
You want to change it manually?
Yeah sure, edit it directly from the file. Now start you wifi and check again the serial_number, you are back to the original value.:cyclops:
I'm not sure whether, if your firewall script is well done and if Xprivacy has been well configured (read "VERY restrictively configured"), those ids leaks or not, but since I like to have more than one protection layer I've edited all of them.
Some ids are easily changed using setpropex or an init script, some are harder and require boot.img editing, but I won't explain any further since as written above only people knowing what they do should play with that stuff.
If all of the above has been done I don't think that anyone can get much data from your phone, but I'm not a security expert and I'd like to hear what you guys think.
Note 1
Trust no one.
I found that apps I had created for testing purposes were requesting my serial, my MCC and my MNC upon installation, eventhough I hadn't given them access to that data neither in the code nor in the android manifest), and then I found that nearly all apps request the same.
Does it come from the IDEs (I have tried with two different brands and it was the same) or does it come from the android OS itself?
I have risen the issue here but nobody seemed interested and nobody blessed me with any relevant answer. Was it that they thought I was unworthy of their attention, or was it that they just didn't know? Or both? Who knows but once more I tell you, TRUST NOONE!!!!
Note 2
Someone said that the NSA and other agencies don't have much interest in a regular person which is true, but they nevertheless gather as much info as they can about as many people as they can, just in case.
In the 50's it was illegal to be a communist in the USA, if cell phones had existed at that time Mac Carthy would have found his job greatly eased.
During the Bush era it was either one was with him or one was against him and was dubbed a bad american (even if one wasn't a terrorist but simply agains Bush's policies), with Guantanamo around the corner if one was suspected of too much empathy with the arab victims.
What's next?
They decide what is subversive and what isn't, and maybe one day you could be subversive because you are against capitalism, or against globalisation, or sympathetic to the people that defend their land agains US invasions and US backed puppet governments.
Or because you rooted your phone?
Keep your eyes open and stay aware guys...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
@unclefab - well said!!!
I completely agree with you. I have also tried to rise some awareness, but I keep seeing answers like "agencies don't have much interest in a regular person" and those are the first that are wrong (or are working for "someone")! Yes guys, when you first start your phone, and connect to the internet, in that very first moment, Google will receive your data, no matter what you did to restrict the leakage! You don't connect to internet? No problem, your operator will receive the same thing when you put their sim into your device! I am no developer, and I am not calling myself as such, but I know what I am talking from a security stand point! I am not a conspiracy theorist, and I will not tell you what I am doing for living, but definitely I know what I am talking about! Some times people are definitely dumb! Are you "people" aware that Google has a direct line (yes a "red phone" connect directly with the gov.?Are you aware what a little cookie can do? Are you aware why they use fake cell towers? Are you aware why they collect your data? Ads improvement? Service Improvement? Court orders? Really? Google isn't storing your data? Or Facebook even worse? Can't you really see what is going on? You can think I am an idiot, but as @unclefab said, trust no one! I am telling you this as a fairy tale, you can or can't believe me, but check for yourself and you'll see!
nerotNS said:
Well, you can always turn on Androids built in Device Encryption (if you don't mind slower r/w speeds). Combine that with a firewall and what you mentioned above and I think you're good.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
No you're not good to go! Not if you're trying to avoid gov. agencies! And just to be fully clear, encryption will help you with the local thief, any gov. agency will break it in no time (at this time only Lollipop is causing issues to decrypt) !!! But hey, you have any right to believe otherwise!
Just a little off topic example....do you think this is the work of some hacker: http://www.symantec.com/connect/blogs/regin-top-tier-espionage-tool-enables-stealthy-surveillance
"I completely agree with you. I have also tried to rise some awareness, but I keep seeing answers like "agencies don't have much interest in a regular person" and those are the first that are wrong (or are working for "someone")! "
Yeah, I've noticed the same, and they sometimes remain suspiciously silent on other subjects (like the questions I asked in my previous post or the issue I rose about illegitimate perms in home made apps), so I start to think the same than you.
Which means that we re back to the:
TRUST NOONE!
"when you first start your phone, and connect to the internet, in that very first moment, Google will receive your data, no matter what you did to restrict the leakage!"
True, that's why before to connect for the first time one should do the things I mentionned in post #12, plus some other settings that I will explain about in a soon to come tutorial on how to secure one's phone.
"You don't connect to internet? No problem, your operator will receive the same thing when you put their sim into your device!"
True again, but there's an easy way to bypass that.
First, don't give your real name when you buy a phone (sounds obvious but most people don't even think about it).
Second, don't give your real name when you buy a sim (same remark as above).
Third, with Xprivacy, AF+ Firewall, AppSettings, a firewall script, some init.d scripts etc. I don't think one's operator can get much in terms of private data out of the phone, apart from the sim imsi, the phone number and how many credits left there are.
To secure the internet connection use Tor, your operator will know that you use it but it won't know anything else.
It still knows who we are calling, for how long etc. when we use the phone functions and AFAIK there's no way to prevent that, except maybe by using those apps that encrypt communications (I can't comment on that since I don't use my phone to phone or to text, and anyway I don't believe in encryption, see below).
But then comes common sense and the TRUST NOONE concept, if you call mum for her birthday you can use your phone, if you want to make a sensitive call use a public phone.
"Are you "people" aware that Google has a direct line (yes a "red phone" connect directly with the gov.?"
Yep, the same applies to Microsoft and Skype, Facebook, Twitter, Apple etc.
It's true that they don't really care about us for now but still, they gather as much data as possible in case one day they need to chase people like you and me because of a new anti subversion law.
"And just to be fully clear, encryption will help you with the local thief, any gov. agency will break it in no time"
I agree with you, and I even think that encryption is dangerous cuz it gives people a false sense of security. I don't think there's any encryption that can resist a two storeys computer, and there probably are anyway backdoors everywhere regardless of what their devs claim.
The same applies to Linux, it has been compromised by the NSA since 2003.
Open source, the code can be reviewed blah blah, yeah, sure, and who reviews it?
Who has weeks to spend reading boring lines of code?
The schema is simple, as soon as you have an app, a website or an operating system, or whatever that becomes relatively popular, the men in black come knocking at your door.
Unless you have been clever enough to hide properly, but most of the time that's not the case (see how easily they caught silk road, how easily they trace anonymous hackers, the list goes endless).
You want another example?
After Snowden's revelation many so called secure emails have popped out here and there. I've tried quite a few and guess what?
You can't use most of them if you are on Tor with java script disabled. The funny thing being that you still can use gmail or yahoo without java script, interesting isn't it?
Now back to encryption, instead of using it once more one has to use one's common sense:
DO NOT store sensitive data in your phone, that's it.
If you have sensitive data keep it on an usb stick, or a hard disk, the idea is to have it on a support that is not web connected.
"do you think this is the work of some hacker: http://www.symantec.com/connect/blogs/regin-top-tier-espionage-tool-enables-stealthy-surveillance"
Hehehe, the only question is which men in black agency made it.
The US? China? Russia? The zionist? India?
unclefab said:
"I completely agree with you. I have also tried to rise some awareness, but I keep seeing answers like "agencies don't have much interest in a regular person" and those are the first that are wrong (or are working for "someone")! "
Yeah, I've noticed the same, and they sometimes remain suspiciously silent on other subjects (like the questions I asked in my previous post or the issue I rose about illegitimate perms in home made apps), so I start to think the same than you.
Which means that we re back to the:
TRUST NOONE!
"when you first start your phone, and connect to the internet, in that very first moment, Google will receive your data, no matter what you did to restrict the leakage!"
True, that's why before to connect for the first time one should do the things I mentionned in post #12, plus some other settings that I will explain about in a soon to come tutorial on how to secure one's phone.
"You don't connect to internet? No problem, your operator will receive the same thing when you put their sim into your device!"
True again, but there's an easy way to bypass that.
First, don't give your real name when you buy a phone (sounds obvious but most people don't even think about it).
Second, don't give your real name when you buy a sim (same remark as above).
Third, with Xprivacy, AF+ Firewall, AppSettings, a firewall script, some init.d scripts etc. I don't think one's operator can get much in terms of private data out of the phone, apart from the sim imsi, the phone number and how many credits left there are.
To secure the internet connection use Tor, your operator will know that you use it but it won't know anything else.
It still knows who we are calling, for how long etc. when we use the phone functions and AFAIK there's no way to prevent that, except maybe by using those apps that encrypt communications (I can't comment on that since I don't use my phone to phone or to text, and anyway I don't believe in encryption, see below).
But then comes common sense and the TRUST NOONE concept, if you call mum for her birthday you can use your phone, if you want to make a sensitive call use a public phone.
"Are you "people" aware that Google has a direct line (yes a "red phone" connect directly with the gov.?"
Yep, the same applies to Microsoft and Skype, Facebook, Twitter, Apple etc.
It's true that they don't really care about us for now but still, they gather as much data as possible in case one day they need to chase people like you and me because of a new anti subversion law.
"And just to be fully clear, encryption will help you with the local thief, any gov. agency will break it in no time"
I agree with you, and I even think that encryption is dangerous cuz it gives people a false sense of security. I don't think there's any encryption that can resist a two storeys computer, and there probably are anyway backdoors everywhere regardless of what their devs claim.
The same applies to Linux, it has been compromised by the NSA since 2003.
Open source, the code can be reviewed blah blah, yeah, sure, and who reviews it?
Who has weeks to spend reading boring lines of code?
The schema is simple, as soon as you have an app, a website or an operating system, or whatever that becomes relatively popular, the men in black come knocking at your door.
Unless you have been clever enough to hide properly, but most of the time that's not the case (see how easily they caught silk road, how easily they trace anonymous hackers, the list goes endless).
You want another example?
After Snowden's revelation many so called secure emails have popped out here and there. I've tried quite a few and guess what?
You can't use most of them if you are on Tor with java script disabled. The funny thing being that you still can use gmail or yahoo without java script, interesting isn't it?
Now back to encryption, instead of using it once more one has to use one's common sense:
DO NOT store sensitive data in your phone, that's it.
If you have sensitive data keep it on an usb stick, or a hard disk, the idea is to have it on a support that is not web connected.
"do you think this is the work of some hacker: http://www.symantec.com/connect/blogs/regin-top-tier-espionage-tool-enables-stealthy-surveillance"
Hehehe, the only question is which men in black agency made it.
The US? China? Russia? The zionist? India?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
@unclefab finally someone with some common sense!!! BRAVO!!!!
I am really glad you have elaborated my post! Probably the most will not even see what we wrote here, but hey, someone maybe will be able to learn something new!
Again...BRAVO!!!!
unclefab said:
It's not about API, it's about what data apps can access and what is sent over the internet, and it actually goes much further than what most people think.
Use apps like Network Log or Network Connections and give Wire Shark a try, and track which IPs apps connect to.
You'll be surprised...
On my Samsung, after I had removed all the google spyware (erggghhh, I mean google apps) and about 150 stock apps, I saw that the kernel was connecting to some google related IPs and to google's DNS, eventhough I had set the phone to use Open DNS in the resolv.conf file, and that the android system was calling home (read "at google's central office in mountain view, California") everytime I connected (note that my phone had never been linked to any google account whatsoever).
Some of the IPs could easily be blocked by using a firewall script, but for some others and for the DNS leaks I had to patch some jars in /system/framework.
One thing is that it differs from phone to phone, I've checked on a Lenovo and there is much less of such unwanted connections.
Is it embedded in the AOSP code? Maybe, I don't use AOSP or CM based roms so I can't tell, but what I can tell is that it's funny to see people screaming about Xiamoi when it's the same elsewhere.
Anyway, if one wants to protect oneself it's possible albeit a bit involved.
First is first, root.
Second, use Xprivacy and a good firewall like AF+.
Then, make a script to block inbound and outbound disturbing IPs.
So, am I good to go now?
Not yet, let's get a step further...
You need now to decompile some of your system apps and some of your jars, and track lines refering to specific websites and DNS.
- Note that if you really are privacy concerned you should uninstall as many system apps as you can (only 11 left on my phone) and replace them with third part apps that are much easier to restrict and have less privileges. Forget about google spyware (erggghhh and sorry again, I mean google apps), facebook spyware-apk, what's app etc... -
That's it?
Still not, there's more!
Xprivacy is a fantastic tool, but due to android limitations it can't restrict ids for the android system.
Have tou ever heard of android.id, build.serial, ro.boot.serialno, ro.serialno etc.? And what about the serial_no and the mac in the efs folder? And the cpu info in proc? And the serial_number in sys?
- I'll deliberately stay vague on those matters, only people that know what they are doing should mess with that kind of stuff. -
Those are ids specific to your device and of course they identify you, that's what they are meant for!
An example, have a look at the wpa_supplicant.conf localised in data/misc/wifi. You'll see that it has your serial_number which means, and experts please correct me if I am wrong, that everytime you connect on the wifi your serial_number gets sent.
You want to change it manually?
Yeah sure, edit it directly from the file. Now start you wifi and check again the serial_number, you are back to the original value.:cyclops:
I'm not sure whether, if your firewall script is well done and if Xprivacy has been well configured (read "VERY restrictively configured"), those ids leaks or not, but since I like to have more than one protection layer I've edited all of them.
Some ids are easily changed using setpropex or an init script, some are harder and require boot.img editing, but I won't explain any further since as written above only people knowing what they do should play with that stuff.
If all of the above has been done I don't think that anyone can get much data from your phone, but I'm not a security expert and I'd like to hear what you guys think.
Note 1
Trust no one.
I found that apps I had created for testing purposes were requesting my serial, my MCC and my MNC upon installation, eventhough I hadn't given them access to that data neither in the code nor in the android manifest), and then I found that nearly all apps request the same.
Does it come from the IDEs (I have tried with two different brands and it was the same) or does it come from the android OS itself?
I have risen the issue here but nobody seemed interested and nobody blessed me with any relevant answer. Was it that they thought I was unworthy of their attention, or was it that they just didn't know? Or both? Who knows but once more I tell you, TRUST NOONE!!!!
Note 2
Someone said that the NSA and other agencies don't have much interest in a regular person which is true, but they nevertheless gather as much info as they can about as many people as they can, just in case.
In the 50's it was illegal to be a communist in the USA, if cell phones had existed at that time Mac Carthy would have found his job greatly eased.
During the Bush era it was either one was with him or one was against him and was dubbed a bad american (even if one wasn't a terrorist but simply agains Bush's policies), with Guantanamo around the corner if one was suspected of too much empathy with the arab victims.
What's next?
They decide what is subversive and what isn't, and maybe one day you could be subversive because you are against capitalism, or against globalisation, or sympathetic to the people that defend their land agains US invasions and US backed puppet governments.
Or because you rooted your phone?
Keep your eyes open and stay aware guys...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
setmov said:
@unclefab - well said!!!
I completely agree with you. I have also tried to rise some awareness, but I keep seeing answers like "agencies don't have much interest in a regular person" and those are the first that are wrong (or are working for "someone")! Yes guys, when you first start your phone, and connect to the internet, in that very first moment, Google will receive your data, no matter what you did to restrict the leakage! You don't connect to internet? No problem, your operator will receive the same thing when you put their sim into your device! I am no developer, and I am not calling myself as such, but I know what I am talking from a security stand point! I am not a conspiracy theorist, and I will not tell you what I am doing for living, but definitely I know what I am talking about! Some times people are definitely dumb! Are you "people" aware that Google has a direct line (yes a "red phone" connect directly with the gov.?Are you aware what a little cookie can do? Are you aware why they use fake cell towers? Are you aware why they collect your data? Ads improvement? Service Improvement? Court orders? Really? Google isn't storing your data? Or Facebook even worse? Can't you really see what is going on? You can think I am an idiot, but as @unclefab said, trust no one! I am telling you this as a fairy tale, you can or can't believe me, but check for yourself and you'll see!
No you're not good to go! Not if you're trying to avoid gov. agencies! And just to be fully clear, encryption will help you with the local thief, any gov. agency will break it in no time (at this time only Lollipop is causing issues to decrypt) !!! But hey, you have any right to believe otherwise!
Just a little off topic example....do you think this is the work of some hacker: http://www.symantec.com/connect/blogs/regin-top-tier-espionage-tool-enables-stealthy-surveillance
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
unclefab said:
"I completely agree with you. I have also tried to rise some awareness, but I keep seeing answers like "agencies don't have much interest in a regular person" and those are the first that are wrong (or are working for "someone")! "
Yeah, I've noticed the same, and they sometimes remain suspiciously silent on other subjects (like the questions I asked in my previous post or the issue I rose about illegitimate perms in home made apps), so I start to think the same than you.
Which means that we re back to the:
TRUST NOONE!
"when you first start your phone, and connect to the internet, in that very first moment, Google will receive your data, no matter what you did to restrict the leakage!"
True, that's why before to connect for the first time one should do the things I mentionned in post #12, plus some other settings that I will explain about in a soon to come tutorial on how to secure one's phone.
"You don't connect to internet? No problem, your operator will receive the same thing when you put their sim into your device!"
True again, but there's an easy way to bypass that.
First, don't give your real name when you buy a phone (sounds obvious but most people don't even think about it).
Second, don't give your real name when you buy a sim (same remark as above).
Third, with Xprivacy, AF+ Firewall, AppSettings, a firewall script, some init.d scripts etc. I don't think one's operator can get much in terms of private data out of the phone, apart from the sim imsi, the phone number and how many credits left there are.
To secure the internet connection use Tor, your operator will know that you use it but it won't know anything else.
It still knows who we are calling, for how long etc. when we use the phone functions and AFAIK there's no way to prevent that, except maybe by using those apps that encrypt communications (I can't comment on that since I don't use my phone to phone or to text, and anyway I don't believe in encryption, see below).
But then comes common sense and the TRUST NOONE concept, if you call mum for her birthday you can use your phone, if you want to make a sensitive call use a public phone.
"Are you "people" aware that Google has a direct line (yes a "red phone" connect directly with the gov.?"
Yep, the same applies to Microsoft and Skype, Facebook, Twitter, Apple etc.
It's true that they don't really care about us for now but still, they gather as much data as possible in case one day they need to chase people like you and me because of a new anti subversion law.
"And just to be fully clear, encryption will help you with the local thief, any gov. agency will break it in no time"
I agree with you, and I even think that encryption is dangerous cuz it gives people a false sense of security. I don't think there's any encryption that can resist a two storeys computer, and there probably are anyway backdoors everywhere regardless of what their devs claim.
The same applies to Linux, it has been compromised by the NSA since 2003.
Open source, the code can be reviewed blah blah, yeah, sure, and who reviews it?
Who has weeks to spend reading boring lines of code?
The schema is simple, as soon as you have an app, a website or an operating system, or whatever that becomes relatively popular, the men in black come knocking at your door.
Unless you have been clever enough to hide properly, but most of the time that's not the case (see how easily they caught silk road, how easily they trace anonymous hackers, the list goes endless).
You want another example?
After Snowden's revelation many so called secure emails have popped out here and there. I've tried quite a few and guess what?
You can't use most of them if you are on Tor with java script disabled. The funny thing being that you still can use gmail or yahoo without java script, interesting isn't it?
Now back to encryption, instead of using it once more one has to use one's common sense:
DO NOT store sensitive data in your phone, that's it.
If you have sensitive data keep it on an usb stick, or a hard disk, the idea is to have it on a support that is not web connected.
"do you think this is the work of some hacker: http://www.symantec.com/connect/blogs/regin-top-tier-espionage-tool-enables-stealthy-surveillance"
Hehehe, the only question is which men in black agency made it.
The US? China? Russia? The zionist? India?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You guys are way too paranoid. First off, if you're all into don't track us down, why are you using the Internet in the first place? Now for the technical part.
The kernel is trying to get the the DNS because guess what? DNS is needed for Internet connectivity. Android is a smartphone and many of its services rely on having an Internet connection. So it's rather normal that a system-level part is trying to establish a network connection. OEM kernels have more of this compared to AOSP because they use their proprietary services.
And sure, you can use 3rd party apps, but they too can contain tracking data, and prior to 4.4/5.0 core system apps were open source, and you still don't have to use gapps.
Next, you can't change hardware embedded data like serial numbers for a number of reasons, security being one of them. If it was that easy you could never track down stolen phones for example. Much like a motor engine serial number in a car. Same goes for IMEI. Then you spoke about the past. Things change over time, it's not the Cold War ETA anymore. Next yes, court orders. According to international law they DO NEED a court order to see your data. And even that is done only in high profile criminal cases. You can read quite a lot about privacy laws online.
Further, yes you ARE good to go. Androids built in encryption system is pretty tough. If your bootloader is locked down, you have no custom recovery, it ain't that easy to get to your data (excluding nexus devices, because of their development nature this can be relatively easily bypassed). Plus, they'd have to have physical access to your device.
They won't receive any of your "precious" data except your rough location and serial numbers as well as your IMEI that will be bound to your Google account. I've already explained why, plus it's for their statistics for example the number of active android devices, new Android device activations on a daily basis etc.
You say you don't use a real name when buying a phone? Well tell me then, what about ID cards? You fake them too when signing a contract? Buying a prepaid SIM card doesn't need a name anyway. And buying a phone? Same thing, unless bought on contract, in which case the ID card problem persists.
Calling encryption dangerous is ridiculous to say the least. And yes, even "two story computers" are gonna have a bad time cracking it. Ever heard of a 256-bit AES?
Finally saying that nobody reviews "boring source code" is ignorant if nothing else. There are tens of thousands of people PAID to do this. It's not a single guy doing it. Plus just because YOU find it boring, doesn't mean everybody else finds it boring too.
Conclusion: Yes, there are ways to compromise security and data. Yes you can block most of those ways. But this level of paranoia is ridiculous to say the least and sounds like something I'd see in a conspiracy TV commercial. Reading trough your posts here I half expected to see "The end is nigh. Hide your children!" kind of sentence. If you believe that we're all monitored, then throw your router trough the window, smash all your tech, and live in a candle lit room. But please don't spread unfounded fear on a public forum based purely on your assumptions, or on what you see on a TV.
Now setmov I'm speaking directly to you. Calling other people stupid because they don't agree with you is a direct violation of xda's rules. Please refrain from doing it again. Thanks in advance.
nerotNS said:
You guys are way too paranoid. First off, if you're all into don't track us down, why are you using the Internet in the first place? Now for the technical part.
The kernel is trying to get the the DNS because guess what? DNS is needed for Internet connectivity. Android is a smartphone and many of its services rely on having an Internet connection. So it's rather normal that a system-level part is trying to establish a network connection. OEM kernels have more of this compared to AOSP because they use their proprietary services.
And sure, you can use 3rd party apps, but they too can contain tracking data, and prior to 4.4/5.0 core system apps were open source, and you still don't have to use gapps.
Next, you can't change hardware embedded data like serial numbers for a number of reasons, security being one of them. If it was that easy you could never track down stolen phones for example. Much like a motor engine serial number in a car. Same goes for IMEI. Then you spoke about the past. Things change over time, it's not the Cold War ETA anymore. Next yes, court orders. According to international law they DO NEED a court order to see your data. And even that is done only in high profile criminal cases. You can read quite a lot about privacy laws online.
Further, yes you ARE good to go. Androids built in encryption system is pretty tough. If your bootloader is locked down, you have no custom recovery, it ain't that easy to get to your data (excluding nexus devices, because of their development nature this can be relatively easily bypassed). Plus, they'd have to have physical access to your device.
They won't receive any of your "precious" data except your rough location and serial numbers as well as your IMEI that will be bound to your Google account. I've already explained why, plus it's for their statistics for example the number of active android devices, new Android device activations on a daily basis etc.
You say you don't use a real name when buying a phone? Well tell me then, what about ID cards? You fake them too when signing a contract? Buying a prepaid SIM card doesn't need a name anyway. And buying a phone? Same thing, unless bought on contract, in which case the ID card problem persists.
Calling encryption dangerous is ridiculous to say the least. And yes, even "two story computers" are gonna have a bad time cracking it. Ever heard of a 256-bit AES?
Finally saying that nobody reviews "boring source code" is ignorant if nothing else. There are tens of thousands of people PAID to do this. It's not a single guy doing it. Plus just because YOU find it boring, doesn't mean everybody else finds it boring too.
Conclusion: Yes, there are ways to compromise security and data. Yes you can block most of those ways. But this level of paranoia is ridiculous to say the least and sounds like something I'd see in a conspiracy TV commercial. Reading trough your posts here I half expected to see "The end is nigh. Hide your children!" kind of sentence. If you believe that we're all monitored, then throw your router trough the window, smash all your tech, and live in a candle lit room. But please don't spread unfounded fear on a public forum based purely on your assumptions, or on what you see on a TV.
Now unclefab I'm speaking directly to you. Calling other people stupid because they don't agree with you is a direct violation of xda's rules. Please refrain from doing it again. Thanks in advance.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
@nerotNS
- First thing, I've wrote "Some times people are definitely dumb!" not @unclefab! Please prove me that what I wrote is not right!
- Second, everything WE said is right! Why are you trying so hard prove it otherwise?
- Third, you can see what you have the ability to see! Maybe in your country the prosecutors, law enforcement agencies or else, need a court order, in the US they don't! You know why? Because of Patriot Act! Maybe you don't even know what this is, and you haven't seen the effect of it, but this doesn't mean it not exist!
- Fourth, you have your believes, and I have mine, so I will respect that and not try to change yours, and for me this discussion is over!
To the OP @jaifora, men, believe what you want, you have the right to!
Good luck
@neronS
"Things change over time, it's not the Cold War ETA anymore. Next yes, court orders. According to international law they DO NEED a court order to see your data. And even that is done only in high profile criminal cases. You can read quite a lot about privacy laws online. "
Saying that shows that you are either very young, or that you have never left your home town, or both.
It's not the cold war anymore, true, now it's the so called war on terror, the US allways need to have an ennemy (before that back in the 90's it was the war on narcotics, but you may have not heard about it).
International laws you said?
You think the States care about those laws?
Did they care about it when the UN said that the invasion in Iraq violates such international laws?
Have you heard about the Abou Ghaib jail? That was another nice example on how international laws are followed by the States.
Apart from that, have you heard about corrupted indian officials tracking indian facebook users that expose their scamms?
Have you heard about that indonesian atheist that got severely beaten up by an angry mob because he had declared on his facebook account that he doesn't believe in god, and that endded up in jail (the atheist, not the mob) for blasphemy?
Have you heard about that bangladeshi blogger that may be executed cuz he wrote on his blog that he's an atheist?
You want more examples?
Oh yeah, I almost forgot, the states, the country of freedom and democracy, the country where you need a court order.
What a joke!
Have you heard about all what the US did these last 200 years? And have you heard about what the US is currently doing in 2014?
I guess you didn't, hence your last reply...
But as for me I did, and that's why I can't trust such a country. That said, I can't trust the european, the chinese, the indian or the russian either, not to mention the middle eastern, as I already said I trust NOONE...
"They won't receive any of your "precious" data except your rough location and serial numbers as well as your IMEI that will be bound to your Google account."
Really?
What about permissions like access fine location (precise gps location), read sms, send sms without the user's knowledge, write sms, read bookmarks, write bookmarks, read contats, write contacts, read call log, write call log, read contact card, read user dictionary, get accounts on the device, perms that can be found in apps where such perms are not needed, you want more?
Have a look at all the data leakage when you connect to the internet, and you'll see that it's not only about a few digits...
"You say you don't use a real name when buying a phone? Well tell me then, what about ID cards? You fake them too when signing a contract? Buying a prepaid SIM card doesn't need a name anyway. And buying a phone? Same thing, unless bought on contract, in which case the ID card problem persists. "
You have just proved once more that you have never been away from home.
The vast majority of android users are people from emerging countries where one can buy a phone without giving one's name (so no need to fake anything) and the same applies for the sim.
Those people are not rich arrogant westerners, who think they know everything because mum and dad sent them to a good school, and they don't have any subscription cuz in most of those countries it doesn't exist or if it does it's very limited.Those people buy prepaid credits when they have money, that's it.
How many people in the States? 315 millions.
How many people in western Europe? About 300 millions.
Add Canada, 30, Australia, 20, how many is that?
India, 1.2 billion or even more.
China, 1.2 billion and counting.
Africa, nearly 1 billion.
Indonesia, 250 millions.
Maybe you should leave your hometown and travel a bit, the world doesn't end in the west's boundaries.
"Finally saying that nobody reviews "boring source code" is ignorant if nothing else. There are tens of thousands of people PAID to do this. It's not a single guy doing it. Plus just because YOU find it boring, doesn't mean everybody else finds it boring too. "
Do a search with "linux kernel nsa", you will learn a lot.
" don't spread unfounded fear on a public forum based purely on your assumptions, or on what you see on a TV. "
Well, I haven't seen it on the tv, I have seen it on the field and I know very well what human beings are capable of, which you obviously don't.
So please, don't spread unfounded reinsurance that everything goes fine, that google and the governments are ok, just because a guy talking on their behalf on the tv said they are.
Then, you can call me a conspirationist or whatever, I don't care, I didn't write those posts for people like you but for people that have their eyes open.
"Now unclefab I'm speaking directly to you. Calling other people stupid because they don't agree with you is a direct violation of xda's rules. Please refrain from doing it again. Thanks in advance"
Where did I call anyone "stupid?
You, on the contrary, said that:
"Finally saying that nobody reviews "boring source code" is ignorant if nothing else".
So son, instead of playing mister moderator maybe YOU should watch a bit your language.
Ah the kids of today...:silly:
unclefab said:
@neronS
"Things change over time, it's not the Cold War ETA anymore. Next yes, court orders. According to international law they DO NEED a court order to see your data. And even that is done only in high profile criminal cases. You can read quite a lot about privacy laws online. "
Saying that shows that you are either very young, or that you have never left your home town, or both.
It's not the cold war anymore, true, now it's the so called war on terror, the US allways need to have an ennemy (before that back in the 90's it was the war on narcotics, but you may have not heard about it).
International laws you said?
You think the States care about those laws?
Did they care about it when the UN said that the invasion in Iraq violates such international laws?
Have you heard about the Abou Ghaib jail? That was another nice example on how international laws are followed by the States.
Apart from that, have you heard about corrupted indian officials tracking indian facebook users that expose their scamms?
Have you heard about that indonesian atheist that got severely beaten up by an angry mob because he had declared on his facebook account that he doesn't believe in god, and that endded up in jail (the atheist, not the mob) for blasphemy?
Have you heard about that bangladeshi blogger that may be executed cuz he wrote on his blog that he's an atheist?
You want more examples?
Oh yeah, I almost forgot, the states, the country of freedom and democracy, the country where you need a court order.
What a joke!
Have you heard about all what the US did these last 200 years? And have you heard about what the US is currently doing in 2014?
I guess you didn't, hence your last reply...
But as for me I did, and that's why I can't trust such a country. That said, I can't trust the european, the chinese, the indian or the russian either, not to mention the middle eastern, as I already said I trust NOONE...
"They won't receive any of your "precious" data except your rough location and serial numbers as well as your IMEI that will be bound to your Google account."
Really?
What about permissions like access fine location (precise gps location), read sms, send sms without the user's knowledge, write sms, read bookmarks, write bookmarks, read contats, write contacts, read call log, write call log, read contact card, read user dictionary, get accounts on the device, perms that can be found in apps where such perms are not needed, you want more?
Have a look at all the data leakage when you connect to the internet, and you'll see that it's not only about a few digits...
"You say you don't use a real name when buying a phone? Well tell me then, what about ID cards? You fake them too when signing a contract? Buying a prepaid SIM card doesn't need a name anyway. And buying a phone? Same thing, unless bought on contract, in which case the ID card problem persists. "
You have just proved once more that you have never been away from home.
The vast majority of android users are people from emerging countries where one can buy a phone without giving one's name (so no need to fake anything) and the same applies for the sim.
Those people are not rich arrogant westerners, who think they know everything because mum and dad sent them to a good school, and they don't have any subscription cuz in most of those countries it doesn't exist or if it does it's very limited.Those people buy prepaid credits when they have money, that's it.
How many people in the States? 315 millions.
How many people in western Europe? About 300 millions.
Add Canada, 30, Australia, 20, how many is that?
India, 1.2 billion or even more.
China, 1.2 billion and counting.
Africa, nearly 1 billion.
Indonesia, 250 millions.
Maybe you should leave your hometown and travel a bit, the world doesn't end in the west's boundaries.
"Finally saying that nobody reviews "boring source code" is ignorant if nothing else. There are tens of thousands of people PAID to do this. It's not a single guy doing it. Plus just because YOU find it boring, doesn't mean everybody else finds it boring too. "
Do a search with "linux kernel nsa", you will learn a lot.
" don't spread unfounded fear on a public forum based purely on your assumptions, or on what you see on a TV. "
Well, I haven't seen it on the tv, I have seen it on the field and I know very well what human beings are capable of, which you obviously don't.
So please, don't spread unfounded reinsurance that everything goes fine, that google and the governments are ok, just because a guy talking on their behalf on the tv said they are.
Then, you can call me a conspirationist or whatever, I don't care, I didn't write those posts for people like you but for people that have their eyes open.
"Now unclefab I'm speaking directly to you. Calling other people stupid because they don't agree with you is a direct violation of xda's rules. Please refrain from doing it again. Thanks in advance"
Where did I call anyone "stupid?
You, on the contrary, said that:
"Finally saying that nobody reviews "boring source code" is ignorant if nothing else".
So son, instead of playing mister moderator maybe YOU should watch a bit your language.
Ah the kids of today...:silly:
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
setmov said:
@nerotNS
- First thing, I've wrote "Some times people are definitely dumb!" not @unclefab! Please prove me that what I wrote is not right!
- Second, everything WE said is right! Why are you trying so hard prove it otherwise?
- Third, you can see what you have the ability to see! Maybe in your country the prosecutors, law enforcement agencies or else, need a court order, in the US they don't! You know why? Because of Patriot Act! Maybe you don't even know what this is, and you haven't seen the effect of it, but this doesn't mean it not exist!
- Fourth, you have your believes, and I have mine, so I will respect that and not try to change yours, and for me this discussion is over!
To the OP @jaifora, men, believe what you want, you have the right to!
Good luck
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I apologize for the mistype I didn't mean unclefab, I meant setmov with his "stupidity" remark.
As for you, I HAVE been around the world quite a lot more than you think. And in case you haven't noticed, I said that you need to give your name ONLY if on contract. I even said that using prepaid doesn't include this. And even according to the Patriot Act they still DO NEED at least a search warrant, otherwise it would be breaking the US Constitution. All the examples you gave above may be true, but you forgot to mention the fact that it was all placed PUBLICLY AND WILLINGLY. The aftermath is a completely unrelated thing. And yes, even though I am 18 I k of quite a lot of the matter as well as other things. Assuming something about someone based on age is immature to say the least. And finally you told me to search Linux kernel NSA. Mate, if you believe everything on Google, I hope you have anti alien cannons in your house. Also claiming that westerners are "rich and arrogant" is considered nationalism. Don't do it, it's bad. Plus everything I learned, I learned on my own. Not in a "good school". As setmov said, as far as I'm concerned the discussion is over, I don't want this to become a public fight. If you wish further talk, you can contact me in a PM.