Ladies and Gentlemen,
I am opening this discussion in order to not only receive some high-quality answers on the following questions, but also to learn what everyone does in order to ensure security and integrity of Apps on their phones (especially when working in environments where attacks are likely or possible due to intersting files on the phone or similar).
Here is my question: Let's suppose a phone is ROOTED, is locked with a Pattern, is updated daily, has TitaniumBackup installed, runs Trust as well as an Antivirus App and on top of that, installed Apps are monitored in a regular basis through TitaniumBackup. Is it even possible for law enforcements or hackers to install malware? If so, what would be necessary for them to do so? Physical access? Malformed Apps with matching signature? Other types of attacks (encouraging @He3556 the owner of Smartphone Attack Vector to chime in)?
Second question (hope @jcase can answer this): What would be the best way of preventing attacks of afforementioned groups and alike? What do YOU personally do?
SecUpwN said:
Ladies and Gentlemen,
I am opening this discussion in order to not only receive some high-quality answers on the following questions, but also to learn what everyone does in order to ensure security and integrity of Apps on their phones (especially when working in environments where attacks are likely or possible due to intersting files on the phone or similar).
Here is my question: Let's suppose a phone is ROOTED, is locked with a Pattern, is updated daily, has TitaniumBackup installed, runs Trust as well as an Antivirus App and on top of that, installed Apps are monitored in a regular basis through TitaniumBackup. Is it even possible for law enforcements or hackers to install malware? If so, what would be necessary for them to do so? Physical access? Malformed Apps with matching signature? Other types of attacks (encouraging @He3556 the owner of Smartphone Attack Vector to chime in)?
Second question (hope @jcase can answer this): What would be the best way of preventing attacks of afforementioned groups and alike? What do YOU personally do?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Pe rooted, with common rooted apps installed? Would be easy to compromise that phone, as you have already done it for them.
Use a stock firmware, chose a vendor with a recent history of good security (Samsung, nexus, motorola in that order imo), keep it up to date, reduce the number of apps you run, don't root it. Disabled usb debugging.
jcase said:
Pe rooted, with common rooted apps installed? Would be easy to compromise that phone, as you have already done it for them.
Use a stock firmware, chose a vendor with a recent history of good security (Samsung, nexus, motorola in that order imo), keep it up to date, reduce the number of apps you run, don't root it. Disabled usb debugging.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks for answering. So that means, in short words, buy a phone and only update official stuff. How boring, I wouldn't be here on XDA then! But I get your point. I'm especially interested in the question of detection. If such agencies have installed anything that would leak data (and I'm sure it's fairly easy to do for them), how would they hide that specific App from the list of TitaniumBackup? Also, how would they trick the Trust Even Logger created by @Dark3n to not show any installation?
Most importantly though, is there some way of detecting such installations or manipulations afterwards?
There is growing so called "Zero-Day-Exploit" Industry, with names like vupen or FinFisher , the one who are working for the German Gov. but also for countries like Saudia Arabia and Iran. They know how to find exploits, nobody knows about (zero-day) and program trojans for all kinds of platforms. So antivirus software can't help here. And it is easy to bypass security if you know one of the bugs - and we know there are many of them in firmware, operating systems, plugins, frameworks and so on... Beside this "white" marked there is also a grey and black marked. So if you need to track your woman or steal information from other companies, you will find somebody with a tool for that, i suppose.
You would need a "Intrusion Detection Software" - sorry but this won't work for Smartphones, because there is a lot of calculation, data and energy needed - you find this special hardware in big data centers.
Do not root and do not install Apps you don't really need is still a good advice, specially when people don't know so much about all this.
Another way to sneak in is to compromise the users pc, that is (maybe) connected to the phone sometimes (work with iphone sync but also with android to change DNS and get SMS with e-tan's - you will find more info it in the media)
Or if you have the "power" you can can use the cloud services (iOS, Google, Windows or other 3rd party services) to steal user data (sms, pictures, GPS history...) or just let it sync the malware to the phone. So you don't have to break in directly.
What would be the best way of preventing attacks of afforementioned groups and alike?
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Click to collapse
tomorrow i will have time, there are to many possibilities
Thanks for clarifying, @He3556!
Now I know that phones in general are hard to lock down for such agencies. Time to quote myself:
SecUpwN said:
Most importantly though, is there some way of detecting such installations or manipulations afterwards?
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Click to collapse
Hey @He3556, if you've been following security news the past weeks, this topic here is becoming more relevant with each revelation. Since the trojan-coding company FinFisher has highly likely been hacked and some cool whisteblowers are publishing very sensitve data like price lists and handbooks on their Twitter account GammaGroupPR, more details of their secret software FinSpy Mobile is being revealed. And this is exactly the type of software that I am talking about here in this thread. I want to know how users can protect themselves from crap like that. According to the video that has been leaked, It is being installed through a fake update, or even through messages via E-Mail to "please" install this "very important update":
And just to make everyone more curious, FinSpy Mobile has been leaked on Twitter! It obviously works for all operating systems, including Android, Blackberry, Windows Mobile, and Symbian. Another trophy is source code of FinFly Web, which found its way the code hosting platform GitHub. It is designed to provide remote and covert infection of a Target System by using a wide range of web-based attacks. FinFly Web provides a point-and-click interface, enabling the Agent to easily create a custom infection code according to selected modules. Target Systems visiting a prepared website with the implemented infection code will be covertly infected with the configured software. Regarding FinSpy Mobile and similar software: How would law enforcements possibly attack a cautious member of XDA (or any other site)? I mean, people that have been in the field of flashing new ROMs, updating their firmware and recovery themselves, not installing strange APKs sent via E-Mail and controlling installed Apps through TitaniumBackup should be somewhat immune to such type of attacks, right?
It appears to me as if their software might work for the general masses, but highly-likely not on people like @jcase or other Android security-gurus. Since I linked you, I'd be very happy if you could expand on that a little. I am sure such companies might even have the possibility of messing with the baseband of a target phone through only knowing the phone number of a target. But I am really curious what their "standard procedure" is if they face a target with thorough Android knowledge, maybe even a security-enthusiastic Android developer. Wouldn't their only option be to manually manipulate the handset?
There are two methods to keep away all kinds of trojan and malware...
1. use a SIM with data connections only: There are SIM cards on the marked you can use in a USB Stick for Notebooks or tablets.
You won't have a cell phone number and can't receive SMS. You won't be able to use the circuit switched (GSM & UMTS-cs) part of your cell phone. For communication you have to use a VoIP provider - with Secure SIP and SRTP.
2. Web browser, Apps, e-mail client and all other connection must be use VPN.
But there is one more stepp to take.
The virtualization of all services and Apps you are using. This works like Team Viewer on a PC. The App is running on a cloud server while you only see the desktop of the remote controlled application. This technique is already used when you want to use flash with iOS device (photon, cloudbrowse, puffin and so on..)
More details about this you can find here: http://itwatch.info/Products/ReCAppS
But i am sure there are more projects about this out there...
He3556 said:
There are two methods to keep away all kinds of trojan and malware...
1. use a SIM with data connections only: There are SIM cards on the marked you can use in a USB Stick for Notebooks or tablets.
You won't have a cell phone number and can't receive SMS. You won't be able to use the circuit switched (GSM & UMTS-cs) part of your cell phone. For communication you have to use a VoIP provider - with Secure SIP and SRTP.
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Click to collapse
I know this works, but the only guy who is so insane and is already doing that is probably @InvaderX.
Honestly, what's the purpose of a phone if I can't receive SMS and call anyone without internet connection?
He3556 said:
2. Web browser, Apps, e-mail client and all other connection must be use VPN.
But there is one more stepp to take.
The virtualization of all services and Apps you are using. This works like Team Viewer on a PC. The App is running on a cloud server while you only see the desktop of the remote controlled application. This technique is already used when you want to use flash with iOS device (photon, cloudbrowse, puffin and so on..)
More details about this you can find here: http://itwatch.info/Products/ReCAppS
But i am sure there are more projects about this out there...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Better yet: Living under a rock should solve all these problems. Seriously though, can such law enforcement agencies silently update stuff on my phone (possibly baseband) that goes unnoticed even when using TitaniumBackup and flashing a fresh ROM every month? From the things you mentioned as for protection, I highly doubt that I'll move that way. And no matter how hard I try, the bad guys (or, to put it in the wording of those companies: the agencies that are "protecting our freedom") will likely always find a way in - even if that means tapping the phone through listining in on my calls or deploying an IMSI-Catcher. But talking about this makes me wonder: It seems as if the probability is high that most of the time they are selling a fake update to the target. Is there a convenient way of knowing that stuff like FinSpy Mobile has been installed, where such agencies can't possibly tinker with any records of what was happening on the phone? I especially check the Trust - Event Logger by @Dark3n very often. Could they change such records? Is there a better App to warn about unauthorizes access or (hidden) App installation?
Trust is not a security app!
If an attacker has root, you can just alter the database of apps like Trust, which would be the easiest way.
There are probably also ways to alter the system so it does not broadcast certain events(which is how Trust monitors most things).
It is just not build to withstand such attacks.
SecUpwN said:
Seriously though, can such law enforcement agencies silently update stuff on my phone (possibly baseband) that goes unnoticed
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Maybe? But there are much easier ways if it is not desired to target specific persons.
I'll brain storm a bit for you:
I would divide the attack vectors into those that work with root and those that don't.
Without root apps can still do plenty of malicious actions, including tracking your position or uploading all files on your sdcard (INTERNET;SDCARD;LOCATION permissions) etc.
If an attacker gains root permission he could install rootkits, modify existing apps, inject malicious code into dex files of installed apps etc.
Basicly do what the hell he wants.
While not using a rooted device would certainly make it more difficult to do malicious things, it's doesn't prevent it.
A normal app you install could still root your phone through vulnerabilities. It works the same way apps such as TowelRoot or ZergRush root your phone.
Downloading new apps that request root is also very dangerous ofc, once you pressed "grant", it's too late, anything could have been done. So be wary when trying out new root apps of devs you don't know/trust?
Abusing trust in existing apps is probably the biggest danger.
The most obvious danger here is downloading apps you usually trust but from unknown sources.
Sure there could be signature issues when updating over your current app, but what if you don't have it installed? I could also think about a few ways to inject malicious code without altering the signature (did not try, just a thought, might be impossible).
The issue is that you probably wouldn't even notice, as the compromised app retains it's original functionality.
Want a botnet?
Inject malicious code into a popular root up that is paid, crack it and upload it somewhere.
While this more dangerous (or worth for an attacker) with root apps, it's still viable for non root apps, just pick one that already aquires many permissions.
It's way too easy, people constantly underestimate the danger of this. It's not all about piracy it's bad, it's a barn door sized security hole.
A bit more difficult variant would be abusing known security holes in existing apps that can be root or nonroot apps, such as modifying files the other apps uses, such that it executes your malicious code for you, so some type of code injection. First thought would be looking for root apps that use scripts or binary files and then check the permissions on those files to see whether they are writeable.
Now those are all ways to target a broad mass of users.
If a single user is the target, it would be more difficult, but there are still plenty of options:
- MITM attacks at public hotspots,
- Pressuring developers of apps you use. What dev wouldn't implement a security hole into an app of his, if a guy in a black suit comes up and points a gun to his head? Well that escalated quickly... But with "secret courts" and all the **** that happens secretly sanctioned or is just done by some agencies because they are above the law, is it really such an impossible scenario? The ends justify the means? Do they?
- My favorite plan yet, making a popular app themselves that they know you will try
It is usually never impossible, just a matter of resources and whether its unfeasible to spend so many resources on that goal.
edit: So the best course of action? Don't install anything you don't trust. Don't trust the manufactor either? Install a custom ROM, but as those often use binary blobs for certain parts of the software, it's not really a 100% solution... There could also be compromising hardware built in, but now I'm really climing up the tinfoil tree, but as recents new story suggest that the NSA is intercepting hardware packets from manufactors such as cisco to modify them, what's really impossible?
TL;DR Best course of action that is feasible to adhere to is probably to just not install stuff one doesn't know or trust.
edit2: More specific answers to your questions.
You might be able to monitor files changes on an a system level, but if your attacker gains highlevel priviledges, what keeps him from changing the monitoring system?
SecUpwN said:
Seriously though, can such law enforcement agencies silently update stuff on my phone (possibly baseband) that goes unnoticed even when using TitaniumBackup and flashing a fresh ROM every month?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
How does TiBu help prevent such injection? Flashing a new ROM would probably undo such changes, but what prevents "them" from just doing it again.
SecUpwN said:
And no matter how hard I try, the bad guys (or, to put it in the wording of those companies: the agencies that are "protecting our freedom") will likely always find a way in - even if that means tapping the phone through listining in on my calls or deploying an IMSI-Catcher.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is the thing, with enough resources, there is always a way.
SecUpwN said:
It seems as if the probability is high that most of the time they are selling a fake update to the target.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Exactly disguising as something legit is the cheapest way, "trojan horse".
SecUpwN said:
Is there a convenient way of knowing that stuff like FinSpy Mobile has been installed, where such agencies can't possibly tinker with any records of what was happening on the phone? I especially check the Trust - Event Logger by @Dark3n very often. Could they change such records? Is there a better App to warn about unauthorizes access or (hidden) App installation?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I don't know any surefire way to detect this. The issue is that with enough priviledges (which can be gained without authorization, zero day exploits are worth a lot money to "agencies" as well as criminal organisations, though I'm no longer sure where the difference is), you can just clean up your track of malicious behavior.
Whoa, this has to be the longest answer I've received since registering here. Huge thanks! Grab a coffee..
Dark3n said:
Trust is not a security app!
If an attacker has root, you can just alter the database of apps like Trust, which would be the easiest way.
There are probably also ways to alter the system so it does not broadcast certain events(which is how Trust monitors most things).
It is just not build to withstand such attacks.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ok, fair. Will keep it anyhow.
Dark3n said:
Maybe? But there are much easier ways if it is not desired to target specific persons.
I'll brain storm a bit for you:
I would divide the attack vectors into those that work with root and those that don't.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Just to mention it here: An awesome site to see which attack vectors and vulnerabilities exist is Smartphone Attack Vektor by @He3556.
Dark3n said:
Without root apps can still do plenty of malicious actions, including tracking your position or uploading all files on your sdcard (INTERNET;SDCARD;LOCATION permissions) etc.
If an attacker gains root permission he could install rootkits, modify existing apps, inject malicious code into dex files of installed apps etc.
Basicly do what the hell he wants.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ok, I get the point. Also like @jcase already pointed out: If we root, we pwn ourselves. And if we don't, too.
Dark3n said:
While not using a rooted device would certainly make it more difficult to do malicious things, it's doesn't prevent it.
A normal app you install could still root your phone through vulnerabilities. It works the same way apps such as TowelRoot or ZergRush root your phone.
Downloading new apps that request root is also very dangerous ofc, once you pressed "grant", it's too late, anything could have been done. So be wary when trying out new root apps of devs you don't know/trust?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I only install trusted Applications.
Dark3n said:
Abusing trust in existing apps is probably the biggest danger.
The most obvious danger here is downloading apps you usually trust but from unknown sources.
Sure there could be signature issues when updating over your current app, but what if you don't have it installed? I could also think about a few ways to inject malicious code without altering the signature (did not try, just a thought, might be impossible).
The issue is that you probably wouldn't even notice, as the compromised app retains it's original functionality.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Guess if I use the F-Droid Store I should be pretty safe, right? But don't worry, I don't rely on it - as for me, smartphones are huge bugs with touchscreens. That is why I also built a phone signal blocking pouch for myself and friends. Further good recommendations can be found on the bottom of my GitHub.
Dark3n said:
Want a botnet?
Inject malicious code into a popular root up that is paid, crack it and upload it somewhere.
While this more dangerous (or worth for an attacker) with root apps, it's still viable for non root apps, just pick one that already aquires many permissions.
It's way too easy, people constantly underestimate the danger of this. It's not all about piracy it's bad, it's a barn door sized security hole.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Actually, no. I already have two or three. Or maybe even four?
Dark3n said:
A bit more difficult variant would be abusing known security holes in existing apps that can be root or nonroot apps, such as modifying files the other apps uses, such that it executes your malicious code for you, so some type of code injection. First thought would be looking for root apps that use scripts or binary files and then check the permissions on those files to see whether they are writeable.
Now those are all ways to target a broad mass of users.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Good to know we've come to an end here. Reading all this makes me want to throw my phone out of the window.
Dark3n said:
If a single user is the target, it would be more difficult, but there are still plenty of options:
- MITM attacks at public hotspots,
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I DON'T use public hotspots. Why? Because you can be almost certain that stuff will be logged and analyzed once you use that. Over here in my town, we've got a HUGE Apple Store. And guess what - FREE WIFI for everyone! Yeyyy... not.
- Pressuring developers of apps you use. What dev wouldn't implement a security hole into an app of his, if a guy in a black suit comes up and points a gun to his head? Well that escalated quickly... But with "secret courts" and all the **** that happens secretly sanctioned or is just done by some agencies because they are above the law, is it really such an impossible scenario? The ends justify the means? Do they?
You are right, threats against family, friends and relatives are a no-go. If I remember correctly, something similar had happened to my beloved XDA developer @idcrisis who invented CrossBreeder. He left development of his toolset because starnge things occured in his life which he linked to his development. Shortly after leaving his project, he proposed a new license: The Aware License. Hope this guy is still living a happy life, though. Added to the above security-issues: Trust NOONE! How come? Well, just read this stunning story I discovered yesterday where a US critical infrastructure company last year revealed that its star developer had outsourced his own job to a Chinese subcontractor and was spending all his work time playing around on the internet adn surfing cat videos. ^^
Dark3n said:
- My favorite plan yet, making a popular app themselves that they know you will try
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Click to collapse
I don't quite get what you meanb by that. Please clarify, it sounds interesting.
Dark3n said:
It is usually never impossible, just a matter of resources and whether its unfeasible to spend so many resources on that goal.
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Click to collapse
The way I see it: The only thing that we have no real access to, is the baseband. I am sure that these are full of backdoors and switches for agencies that they just need to trigger - just like the Samsung Galaxy Backdoor discovered by Replicant.
Dark3n said:
edit: So the best course of action? Don't install anything you don't trust. Don't trust the manufactor either? Install a custom ROM, but as those often use binary blobs for certain parts of the software, it's not really a 100% solution...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Nope, I don't trust the manufacturer either. And I am SICK of bloatware! hence, I am a happy user of AOKP since several years - but regarding the binary blobs, I would certainly love to try out Replicant (sadly not yet available for the HTC One).
Dark3n said:
There could also be compromising hardware built in, but now I'm really climing up the tinfoil tree, but as recents new story suggest that the NSA is intercepting hardware packets from manufactors such as cisco to modify them, what's really impossible?
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Click to collapse
Nothing is impossible, everything can be done. A wise man once said: Everything you can imagine, will happen.
Dark3n said:
TL;DR Best course of action that is feasible to adhere to is probably to just not install stuff one doesn't know or trust.
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Click to collapse
Good advice, I already do follow that one. As already said, if I were a spy company, I'd just team up with manufacturers of basebands..
Dark3n said:
You might be able to monitor files changes on an a system level, but if your attacker gains highlevel priviledges, what keeps him from changing the monitoring system?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Highly-likely nothing. I already know that there is not much I can do to prevent them to get in, but at least I do want to detect them - and having such a detection mechanism raises the bar in disguising their actions even further - and who knows, maybe they're not interested anymore then?
Dark3n said:
How does TiBu help prevent such injection? Flashing a new ROM would probably undo such changes, but what prevents "them" from just doing it again.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not much.
Dark3n said:
This is the thing, with enough resources, there is always a way.
Exactly disguising as something legit is the cheapest way, "trojan horse".
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Absolutely right. But what I am really curious of: How do people from the security-community really protect their phones? Do you have friends that are using their phones to just communicate via VPN and VOIP, not sending SMS and never calling people? Perfect place for @InvaderX to chime in, he told me before to really do a combination of that approach.
Dark3n said:
I don't know any surefire way to detect this. The issue is that with enough priviledges (which can be gained without authorization, zero day exploits are worth a lot money to "agencies" as well as criminal organisations, though I'm no longer sure where the difference is), you can just clean up your track of malicious behavior.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Sigh.. mobile phones are a total threat to humanity, I get it..
At least I am not the only one paranoid about this kind of thing. LOL
lostangelintx said:
At least I am not the only one paranoid about this kind of thing. LOL
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It doesn't have much to do with "Paranoia". The very reason you started to care about this, is because phones are in fact very insecure devices - most people just don't realize or care about it. Another very interesting thread I found lately: Android Security for Conscious Mind.
a tool against 0-day exploits
don't freak out to early - this tool is only for windows desktops.
But at least it shows how it could work for mobile devices, too.
It is called Enhanced Mitigation Experience Toolkit (EMET 5.0) ...is a utility that helps prevent vulnerabilities in software from being successfully exploited.
These technologies function as special protections and obstacles that an exploit author must defeat to exploit software vulnerabilities. These security mitigation technologies do not guarantee that vulnerabilities cannot be exploited. However, they work to make exploitation as difficult as possible to perform.
SSL/TLS certificate pinning - This feature is intended to detect (and stop, with EMET 5.0) man-in-the-middle attacks that are leveraging the public key infrastructure (PKI).
Ok, they do not guarantee 100% security - but who could? Even this software comes from Microsoft, it's still a good solution and closes the gap between anti-virus, firewall and keeping your software updated.
Here is a test from 2010 (EMET 2.0) http://www.rationallyparanoid.com/articles/emet-testing.html
And one of 2014 http://www.offensive-security.com/vulndev/disarming-enhanced-mitigation-experience-toolkit-emet/
Does anybody know a APP for Android, iOS, WP8 or BB?
Just a small side note:
In regard to device security vs. rooting.
There are essentially 2 schools of thought. On the one side we have those who believe we should trust the device manufacturers experience and knowledge to keep malware out of AOS, and you phone from spilling your data when stolen, which also means keeping users from rooting their devices, simply because they know security better, than the average user. (I think @jcase may be one of those, but he'd have to answer for himself.) On the other hand we have people like me, who firmly believe that the best way to keep your device secure is by being rooted, since we cannot trust anyone, especially large companies who scream "TRUST US". For us, we own the device and everything it does, and that your phone should not be able to send a single photon of radiation, without your permission. Then at least we have the choice to provide our own security by Firewalls, open source baseband, and encrypted phone calls etc. So no, this is not part of the majority of phone owners. But we think it should be. So who's right? Well, we're both right of course. What we need is to be able to make this choice at the time of purchase, and independent of the device you like. To be able to choose if you have a fully open device that you can secure on your own or if you like one that is claimed as secure, but you will never be able to check or control on your own. But unfortunately, this is not possible in most circumstances.
I trust neither the ODMs, nor the custom roms. However I KNOW the average custom rom is just as if not MORE vulnerable than current stock roms, add su into the mix and it is without a doubt more vulnerable. Show me a custom rom dev that claims he ships a secure firmware, and I'll show you someone ignorant of the facts. Ask most of them what CTS is, and they will look at you like you are referencing 18th century medical terms.
That is my stance. In regards to root making a device more vulnerable, I can back that statement time and time again. From key compromises of the superuser apps, to vulnerabilities in the app, to vulns in the su binaries, to vulns in apps that typical make su requests, to stupid users who will grant it to anyone. Having any access point to "root" makes turning a small vuln to a complete compromise relatively easy.
E:V:A said:
Just a small side note:
In regard to device security vs. rooting.
There are essentially 2 schools of thought. On the one side we have those who believe we should trust the device manufacturers experience and knowledge to keep malware out of AOS, and you phone from spilling your data when stolen, which also means keeping users from rooting their devices, simply because they know security better, than the average user. (I think @jcase may be one of those, but he'd have to answer for himself.) On the other hand we have people like me, who firmly believe that the best way to keep your device secure is by being rooted, since we cannot trust anyone, especially large companies who scream "TRUST US". For us, we own the device and everything it does, and that your phone should not be able to send a single photon of radiation, without your permission. Then at least we have the choice to provide our own security by Firewalls, open source baseband, and encrypted phone calls etc. So no, this is not part of the majority of phone owners. But we think it should be. So who's right? Well, we're both right of course. What we need is to be able to make this choice at the time of purchase, and independent of the device you like. To be able to choose if you have a fully open device that you can secure on your own or if you like one that is claimed as secure, but you will never be able to check or control on your own. But unfortunately, this is not possible in most circumstances.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
@jcase : So I think we agree on that what you say, but from another perspective, we can ask ourselves whether or not a stupid user with root, can possibly endanger a smart user with root? I think this is not generally possible, apart from some automated DDOS attack, which would ultimately originate from a smart user with root, using the stupid user as a transport.
To what extent should ODM's be able to decide who is a smart root user and stupid root user? (And regardless their decision, why should we believe them?) There may not be an answer here, but the discussion is interesting also from a political point of view. How much should the "government" be responsible for a certain individual's action, regardless of their intelligence? Personally I think they're not, and should only provide security to prevent individuals from directly hurting each other, and not preventing them from hurting themselves, if they choose to do so.
Reading all this, it makes me wonder if the antivirus apps help at all..
stefeman said:
Reading all this, it makes me wonder if the antivirus apps help at all..
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Click to collapse
Let's put it this way.
In 6 years of heavy 24/7 PC use, my anti-virus have prevented me from a "possible" remote exploit exactly once, while having annoyed me with lengthy uninterruptible scans and ignoring my ignore settings about a 1000 times, due to adware and various other false positives. Then only god knows how many different countries governments are already present in my PC. Go figure. And yes, I have tweaked every possible setting and tried multiple well know AV's.
Forget AV's and get a good FW and with a well tuned host file, and well tuned common sense.
E:V:A said:
@jcase : So I think we agree on that what you say, but from another perspective, we can ask ourselves whether or not a stupid user with root, can possibly endanger a smart user with root? I think this is not generally possible, apart from some automated DDOS attack, which would ultimately originate from a smart user with root, using the stupid user as a transport.
To what extent should ODM's be able to decide who is a smart root user and stupid root user? (And regardless their decision, why should we believe them?) There may not be an answer here, but the discussion is interesting also from a political point of view. How much should the "government" be responsible for a certain individual's action, regardless of their intelligence? Personally I think they're not, and should only provide security to prevent individuals from directly hurting each other, and not preventing them from hurting themselves, if they choose to do so.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Really, I dont want to do this again, this conversation.
Most stupid people don't realize they are stupid, they assume they are smart. (We are all stupid in some regards).
I think I could endanger a user from root, pretty sure I can either screw the phone up, or possibly catch it on fire. If it had a sim in it, and was on the network I am certain I could make them regret ever rooting their device.
Here is a question, how many of you understand how these unlocks/exploits work?
I sometimes leave messages hidden in mine, and have only had ONE person reply to the hidden message, out of 100,000s of runs. People don't even know what they are running to gain root, let alone any idea what these "rom devs" do.
Open source is the answer right? Everyone can read the code, and everyone does! Thats why no backdoors or vulns have ever been in open source projects. Every open source project gets a line by line audit by a team of security professionals.</sarcasm>
I'll join back in when someone shows me a custom rom/open device that has the same or better security precautions taken by leading ODMs. Until then, it is generally just as easy or (generally) easier to abuse and exploit one of these custom roms floating around.
stefeman said:
Reading all this, it makes me wonder if the antivirus apps help at all..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Won't help a lick for anything originating from a government.
Related
New to the Android platform. It's surprising how 'connected' they are. Apologies if this is the wrong forum. I'll be happy to post elsewhere or see this post moved.
I have an Epic 4G Touch.
I've been pondering the security and privacy aspect of these Android phones, and it seems to me that precautions are prudent, but I’m not exactly sure what precautions are necessary and how to put them into practice. I’m really not even sure what questions to ask. I’m very computer literate, so I guess that gives me a head start of sorts.
I guess complete privacy, information safety and anonymity is impossible, but I hope there is some sort of method that will allow as much as is available.
The questions below are examples of some of the questions I have.
Is there some sort of primer that covers these and other details that should be known?
Questions that occur:
1. What is the most secure way to purchase apps? How do the ‘savvy’ users handle this? And should they be purchased online or via the phone? What method of payment are most comfortable with?
2. Is it a bad idea to access other online accounts from the phone, or is it better to establish some sort of new account with a ‘credit limit’ or a low limit credit card?
3. I’m using a few of my ‘anonymous’ Gmail accounts on the phone. I’m not sure how much privacy this provides, given that the phone is in my name?
4. Are there practices that should be avoided (i.e., emailing my 'non-mobile’ accounts)?
5. After getting up to speed, I’ll likely be rooting. Any extra security precautions required? I guess an app like LBE Privacy Guard is warranted?
I suppose a good primer will cover much more. Thanks for any help .
Sam
I can't really help with the purchasing of apps questions, as I don't invest much money into apps, but I would definitely recommend LBE. It helps get your app permissions under control.
Sam Sung;19111758]New to the Android platform. It's surprising how 'connected' they are. Apologies if this is the wrong forum. I'll be happy to post elsewhere or see this post moved.
I have an Epic 4G Touch.
I've been pondering the security and privacy aspect of these Android phones, and it seems to me that precautions are prudent, but I’m not exactly sure what precautions are necessary and how to put them into practice. I’m really not even sure what questions to ask. I’m very computer literate, so I guess that gives me a head start of sorts.
I guess complete privacy, information safety and anonymity is impossible, but I hope there is some sort of method that will allow as much as is available.
The questions below are examples of some of the questions I have.
Is there some sort of primer that covers these and other details that should be known?
Questions that occur:
1. What is the most secure way to purchase apps? How do the ‘savvy’ users handle this? And should they be purchased online or via the phone? What method of payment are most comfortable with?
I do it via phone and bill to my phone bill.
2. Is it a bad idea to access other online accounts from the phone, or is it better to establish some sort of new account with a ‘credit limit’ or a low limit credit card?
I check my info with the banks application.
3. I’m using a few of my ‘anonymous’ Gmail accounts on the phone. I’m not sure how much privacy this provides, given that the phone is in my name?
Probably not much.
4. Are there practices that should be avoided (i.e., emailing my 'non-mobile’ accounts)?
I can't think of any shouldn't make a difference.
5. After getting up to speed, I’ll likely be rooting. Any extra security precautions required? I guess an app like LBE Privacy Guard is warranted?
Only security precaution I suggest is read perms. Lol
I suppose a good primer will cover much more. Thanks for any help .
Sent from my PC36100 using xda premium
First you need to decide how private you want to be.
Hiding your activity from Sprint for example would be fairly difficult. The ET4G is setup to route all internet traffic through sprint's proxies, you can change this (search the ET4g forums to find out how) but I'm certain that sprint could still monitor your activity if they wanted to unless you setup some kind of VPN which I don't even know if we can do on our phones.
Next up would be google, they make money by gathering information about you... so yeah if you want to hide from them your a tad limited since this is android. I guess you could just not associate a gmail account with the phone, but then whats the point of running android?
Personally I'm not insanely worried about the above two entities. What concerns me is the tons of random apps people load onto phones that have every permission granted you could think of. This is where LBE Privacy Guard comes into play and should be used regardless of rooting. Safest place to get apps is the official market, downloading cracked apps opens you up to who knows what.
Anyway thats my spiel
Sam Sung said:
New to the Android platform. It's surprising how 'connected' they are. Apologies if this is the wrong forum. I'll be happy to post elsewhere or see this post moved.
I have an Epic 4G Touch.
I've been pondering the security and privacy aspect of these Android phones, and it seems to me that precautions are prudent, but I’m not exactly sure what precautions are necessary and how to put them into practice. I’m really not even sure what questions to ask. I’m very computer literate, so I guess that gives me a head start of sorts.
I guess complete privacy, information safety and anonymity is impossible, but I hope there is some sort of method that will allow as much as is available.
The questions below are examples of some of the questions I have.
Is there some sort of primer that covers these and other details that should be known?
Questions that occur:
1. What is the most secure way to purchase apps? How do the ‘savvy’ users handle this? And should they be purchased online or via the phone? What method of payment are most comfortable with?
2. Is it a bad idea to access other online accounts from the phone, or is it better to establish some sort of new account with a ‘credit limit’ or a low limit credit card?
3. I’m using a few of my ‘anonymous’ Gmail accounts on the phone. I’m not sure how much privacy this provides, given that the phone is in my name?
4. Are there practices that should be avoided (i.e., emailing my 'non-mobile’ accounts)?
5. After getting up to speed, I’ll likely be rooting. Any extra security precautions required? I guess an app like LBE Privacy Guard is warranted?
I suppose a good primer will cover much more. Thanks for any help .
Sam
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
.
Thread moved to Q&A due to it being a question. Would advise you to read forum rules and post in correct section.
Failure to comply with forum rules will result in an infraction and/or ban depending on severity of rule break.
Thanks to all for your comments.
R1ptide said:
First you need to decide how private you want to be.
Hiding your activity from Sprint for example would be fairly difficult. The ET4G is setup to route all internet traffic through sprint's proxies, you can change this (search the ET4g forums to find out how) but I'm certain that sprint could still monitor your activity if they wanted to unless you setup some kind of VPN which I don't even know if we can do on our phones.
Next up would be google, they make money by gathering information about you... so yeah if you want to hide from them your a tad limited since this is android. I guess you could just not associate a gmail account with the phone, but then whats the point of running android?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree. Although I've always been very 'privacy centered', I've come to accept the reality that there is a compromise required here. It never occurred to me that I should worry about Sprint. The 'Big Picture' where Google is concerned is somewhat disturbing, but I suppose the (unacceptable) alternative is to throw away my android and limit all of my online activity.
At this point, I can safely say that I won't be tossing my Android unless I become a fugitive of justice .
However, I'm only willing to give up what I have to. The problem is, at my current level of experience, I'm not quite sure what that is. And that is the question I should have included in my OP:
If I want to protect my privacy, data, acounts, and all else to the greatest degree possible without giving up my Android (and still retaining the lion's share of functionality and features), how would I best accomplish that?
I do understand that common sense plays a large role here, and I'm not looking to overide that, but whatever practices, software, some kind of anonymous payment methods or whatever else that can provide the greatest degree of protection, privacy and anonymity without shelving all functionality is what I'm after.
Personally I'm not insanely worried about the above two entities. What concerns me is the tons of random apps people load onto phones that have every permission granted you could think of. This is where LBE Privacy Guard comes into play and should be used regardless of rooting. Safest place to get apps is the official market, downloading cracked apps opens you up to who knows what.
Anyway thats my spiel
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I appreciate your well thought out response. As far as cracked apps, I apply the same caution here as I do to my computers. No questionable software or sites. No 'off the beaten path' practices unless thoroughly researched.
Where LBE is concerned...the Market description (and a thread I read in these forums) states that Root is required. Is that not correct?
Again, thanks for your (and any other) responses.
Sam Sung said:
Where LBE is concerned...the Market description (and a thread I read in these forums) states that Root is required. Is that not correct?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That is correct, and if you're getting at what I think you are, then yes, some people have a problem with this. It's hard accepting that LBE protects you from bad apps, while LBE itself has full access to every inch of your phone. That being said, I don't believe anyone has come up with any solid evidence that the app itself is harmful; people, however, can still be skeptics.
Without it, when you come across an app with a questionable permission, your only option is to not use the app. Every other permission blocker I've come across does so forcefully, which leaves the apps useless (force closes, etc). LBE, on the other hand, maintains the usability of the apps while still preventing them those permissions. In my opinion, it's a wonderfully helpful app. Your decision to use it may be different though, depending on your paranoia.
upichie said:
That is correct, and if you're getting at what I think you are...
In my opinion, it's a wonderfully helpful app. Your decision to use it may be different though, depending on your paranoia.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, actually, my question was based on the reality that I would be running it now if my phone was rooted (and the supposition that it will be pointless to install to an unrooted phone). I will be rooting this phone (Epic 4G Touch) eventually. The only reasons I haven't are:
1) This is my first Android phone and therefore I have no experience with rooting (still reading different rooting threads). I tend to research before I leap into something new.
2) I just don't have the time right now to troubleshoot if something goes wrong. And this phone is so incredible, I'd rather not be without it for any extended length of time (I use it as an 'appliance' rather than a phone...I have other phones for such menial tasks)
But I'm definitely convinced of the virtues of rooting, largely due to the app functionality. I also want to be prepared for the caveats. I'm not sure what they may be right now, but there must be some security risks.
Thanks!
Apps can be purchased via PC web browser at AppStoreHQ.
Gapps are optional. After rooting you could remove them or just those you don't need. Market is a tough one to live without, IMO.
If you don't plan to use your device for email then create a new email account specifically for the phone. Don't give it out. This will allow you to use the Market, etc.
Install Shark for Root + SharkReader to look at network traffic, or do it via router. Use hosts file to block google analytics etc. Routinely wipe the cache.
If you root install busybox and a terminal emulator and you can control the apps and system yourself. Everything LBE does you can do manually. Compile/install a kernel with tun.ko module and connect to a VPN. Or change DNS if you want. It's Linux, always keep that in mind.
My BIGGEST problem with Android is the lack of timely updates which include security patches. For this reason these devices are a security nightmare. Turn off WiFi, data, gps, Bluetooth when not using them. Disable install from unknown sources and debugging when not in us. Follow blogs that report on security issues and understand where you're vulnerable.
I'm security conscious as well and don't purchase or do banking with my phone. Sure it's convenient but it can wait until I get home. If someone is sniffing my traffic or should my phone be stolen I'm not scurrying to cancel credit cards and change passwords. This gives me the piece of mind I need to enjoy my smartphone. It also limits it, but I'm ok with that.
Turducken said:
Apps can be purchased via PC web browser at AppStoreHQ.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Is there a more anonymous payment method than standard CC?
Gapps are optional. After rooting you could remove them or just those you don't need. Market is a tough one to live without, IMO.
If you don't plan to use your device for email then create a new email account specifically for the phone. Don't give it out. This will allow you to use the Market, etc.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Actually, I have 3 gmail accts on the phone. One for market, one for clients, one for logins.
Install Shark for Root + SharkReader to look at network traffic, or do it via router. Use hosts file to block google analytics etc. Routinely wipe the cache.
If you root install busybox and a terminal emulator and you can control the apps and system yourself. Everything LBE does you can do manually. Compile/install a kernel with tun.ko module and connect to a VPN. Or change DNS if you want. It's Linux, always keep that in mind.
My BIGGEST problem with Android is the lack of timely updates which include security patches. For this reason these devices are a security nightmare. Turn off WiFi, data, gps, Bluetooth when not using them. Disable install from unknown sources and debugging when not in us. Follow blogs that report on security issues and understand where you're vulnerable.
I'm security conscious as well and don't purchase or do banking with my phone. Sure it's convenient but it can wait until I get home. If someone is sniffing my traffic or should my phone be stolen I'm not scurrying to cancel credit cards and change passwords. This gives me the piece of mind I need to enjoy my smartphone. It also limits it, but I'm ok with that.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks, Turducken. This is really good information. All the more reason I need to get up to speed w/rooting so that I can batten down the hatches. I'm not quite sure how to use some of this info yet, but time and educating myself will remedy that.
One app I just ran across looks interesting (which I can't use until I root) is Logging Test.
It was originally written for HTC phones, but the paid version will support more devices.
Please consider this thread ongoing. Any information and/or links pertinent to security, data and privacy protection is enthusiastically welcomed!
Introduction
I have not seen much talk about security in XDA, and not at all on Neo Section.
SO here's just one informative link talking about using and developing apps and security risks involved
http://www.technologyreview.com/computing/25921/?mod=related
Any bug in software could potentially be used as a security loophole to gain access to private information, spy on you, get your credit card info(should you do such things on phone).
What is kind of unsettling is that everyone seems fine with modding, tweaking, developing and using those ROMs made in XDA without worrying if there could be that kind of bug in your made or used ROM.
You don't need a malicious app only to have risks. Most people use Windows so they should know that it is OP systems bugs and vulnerabilities that allow for unwanted access to your files, data, etc.
Android itself is having very non-foolproof security system. All apps on unrooted phone are in sandbox. That's no security measure at all. It doesn't limit app from stealing your private info at all, it only cant delete the whole ROM. That's just idiotic security system, for it is the only thing beside encrypting shut off phone on 3.0 and 4.0. So that means Android on it's own has no security measures while it's working. Even Windows has... some... but not too much... so you could pay for antivirus and antispyware software ofc.
It has always been the goal of big corporations to make money from insecurity, be they software developers, arms dealers and you name it. They all benefit from insecurities existing. Same is with Google and it's Android. But the good news is that we the users can modify Android. We could all say "Au revoir security bugs and loopholes!" if we would care about developing ROMs designed to make Android more secure... alas that's not happening yet!
Overview of Linux/Android security issues.
It's a short condensed description just to get you interested in the topic. There's lots of material on net, you only need to search, read, watch videos.
Linux becomes more vulnerable with more applications with different permissions installed. Same is true for Android.
Say your Phone Exporer has root access, that means it has root access to whole Android. To remove unnecessary risks, this app's root access should be limited to only most necessary functions it needs to operate.
Currently for Android there is no such solution. For Linux there is Apparmor.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AppArmor
Total root access is obvious vulnerability, but it is at least known one. Let's look at possibility of apps having hidden permissions and what that could mean to you.
Blade Buddy from Market.
On market it does not list permission to "Unique Device ID"(IMEI for GSM and MEID; ESN for CDMA) for free nor for paid version.
That means the author of BB has left the code from free version in paid one. This permission is used by ads to track you. It's not necessary code for ads, but it helps the dev know who clicked on the add and generated him some money. To see your money generating zombie empire stretch across the whole globe.... quite a thrill, isn't it?
So it's a latent code, with no benefit to user and an exploit only calling to be abused.
Unique Device ID allows you to be tracked on net and also where you are physically. GPS is just one way to find you, police for example have scanners to locate your devices physical location by the IMEI code. You can count on the "bad guys" having this technology as well, for it's quite a tool for burglars and other criminals.
The risks of your home being marked as the next dungeon to be looted by some raiders, I mean criminals(or perhaps WoW players sleepwalking and sleepraiding?) or getting your ID and bank details stolen by trojan/hacker is random. Yet the threat would not exist without apps having so flagrant hidden permissions.
Next app with ludicrous permissions
Brightest Flashlight
It does list many permissions, among them "Hardware controls - take pictures and videos ". No, it does not need a permission to take photos through cameras to operate the flashlight. But it's fun nonetheless for the dev to see his trusty peasants, or maybe he just likes to observe people like some watch fish in aquarium or hamsters in cage( "Look at that dork!", "You're one ugly m...f...er","ummm a couple kissing in dark with ma flashlight, what are they searching?", "what's that you eat, mr Korean, brains?" "hey show me that document again.")
You don't even need to run the app yourself. It can be triggered by hacker on background and take a snapshot of you.
On top of this little needless permission it has following hidden permissions:
1. Unique IMSI, read about here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IMSI
2. MCC+MNC (CDMA)
3. Unique Devide ID
4. Cell Tower Name.
That's a lot of needless permissions for flashlight, these are there just to track you the app user and have nothing to do with your comfortable use of the app.
These are just 2 apps with totally needless permissions for their intended functioning. If you don't want your Windows and Linux have such security holes then why do you want your Android have them?! You don't want, that's the point and these apps would not be so popular if people would really know and care about their phone being secure.
It can be stated for sure that above exemplified permissions not listed on market are more useful for pranksters, criminals or someone plainly looking-down-on-all-the-dumb-sheep and not at all for any legitimate, user or customer friendly purposes.
There are very few tools to check for security and privacy problems in apps. That gives a sense that majority of devs do not want Android to be secure and private, because Android is another revenue generating platform through Google ads business of course. Were people more educated about the matter then Google ads business would shrink down as well. A private and secure Android can't be tracked or annoyed with ads. No ads, no profit. No security therefore means profit. Unfortunately this lack of security can be exploited by anyone with criminal or malignant intentions so very easily.
The most important thing is to read the permissions before installing.
If you had read the article I linked. Those permissions don't matter anything really if stuff developers use doesn't reveal what it does, or developer itself doesn't disclose what the app does.
We can safely say that those permissions asked are just to make ordinary users of Android think that all is under their control.
I use Privacy Blocker app and it keeps finding app permissions that are not listed. Even that app doesn't find those permissions which Cyanogenmod permission manager shows. And I've sanitized all my apps, still I find my phone connecting to some odd servers while using certain paid and seemingly legit apps. I even found shapshots from front camera made by some app... and I am checking all permissions I can, even for those not listed.
What seems harmless but could reveal your IP address and potentially other data about you is... advertisements used by apps.
Ads can be far more than just a little annoyance that slows your device. Any file, picture loaded from some location in internet can be used to locate you.
I had a problem of getting phone call bills for calls lasting 10 to 20 secs that I never made after using a slew of market apps, flashlights, fun stuff, etc.
I paid two months for such calls trying to find out which app did it and still don't know which one it was. Skype(phone app has fake IP of Holland but actual connection goes to Moscow... oh come one what is this? Why such hiding? Like anyone would trust their phone's Skype connection stream through Moscow... no thank you! Then wonder still if the phone gets so slow and Skype call quality is so bad even over wifi while Windows Skype does just fine?), Brighest flashlight, some photo editors, and slew of other garbage I've already forgotten about cause I don't use any of it anymore.
First post updated
How about the new 4.3 update..in includes some security and privacy control..will this thing prevent you had mentioned?
Is there any way to reactivate this post? maybe start working on a security enhanced android ROM? I'm agree, Security does matter!
I wrote this On Xperia Neo General forum but it belongs to here much more.
Original thread at: http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=1447095
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Introduction
I have not seen much talk about security in XDA.
First, here's just one informative link talking about using and developing apps and security risks involved.
http://www.technologyreview.com/comp...1/?mod=related
Any bug in software could potentially be used as a security loophole to gain access to private information, spy on you, get your credit card info(should you do such things on phone).
What is kind of unsettling is that everyone seems fine with modding, tweaking, developing and using those ROMs made in XDA without worrying if there could be that kind of bug in your made or used ROM.
You don't need a malicious app only to have risks. Most people use Windows so they should know that it is OP systems bugs and vulnerabilities that allow for unwanted access to your files, data, etc.
Android itself is having very non-foolproof security system. All apps on unrooted phone are in sandbox. That's no security measure at all. It doesn't limit app from stealing your private info at all, it only cant delete the whole ROM. That's just idiotic security system, for it is the only thing beside encrypting shut off phone on 3.0 and 4.0. So that means Android on it's own has no security measures while it's working. Even Windows has... some... but not too much... so you could pay for antivirus and antispyware software ofc.
It has always been the goal of big corporations to make money from insecurity, be they software developers, arms dealers and you name it. They all benefit from insecurities existing. Same is with Google and it's Android. But the good news is that we the users can modify Android. We could all say "Au revoir security bugs and loopholes!" if we would care about developing ROMs designed to make Android more secure... alas that's not happening yet!
Overview of Linux/Android security issues.
It's a short condensed description just to get you interested in the topic. There's lots of material on net, you only need to search, read, watch videos.
Linux becomes more vulnerable with more applications with different permissions installed. Same is true for Android.
Say your Phone Exporer has root access, that means it has root access to whole Android. To remove unnecessary risks, this app's root access should be limited to only most necessary functions it needs to operate.
Currently for Android there is no such solution. For Linux there is Apparmor.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AppArmor
Total root access is obvious vulnerability, but it is at least known one. Let's look at possibility of apps having hidden permissions and what that could mean to you.
Blade Buddy from Market.
On market it does not list permission to "Unique Device ID"(IMEI for GSM and MEID; ESN for CDMA) for free nor for paid version.
That means the author of BB has left the code from free version in paid one. This permission is used by ads to track you. It's not necessary code for ads, but it helps the dev know who clicked on the add and generated him some money. To see your money generating zombie empire stretch across the whole globe.... quite a thrill, isn't it?
So it's a latent code, with no benefit to user and an exploit only calling to be abused.
Unique Device ID allows you to be tracked on net and also where you are physically. GPS is just one way to find you, police for example have scanners to locate your devices physical location by the IMEI code. You can count on the "bad guys" having this technology as well, for it's quite a tool for burglars and other criminals.
The risks of your home being marked as the next dungeon to be looted by some raiders, I mean criminals(or perhaps WoW players sleepwalking and sleepraiding?) or getting your ID and bank details stolen by trojan/hacker is random. Yet the threat would not exist without apps having so flagrant hidden permissions.
Next app with ludicrous permissions
Brightest Flashlight
It does list many permissions, among them "Hardware controls - take pictures and videos ". No, it does not need a permission to take photos through cameras to operate the flashlight. But it's fun nonetheless for the dev to see his trusty peasants, or maybe he just likes to observe people like some watch fish in aquarium or hamsters in cage( "Look at that dork!", "You're one ugly m...f...er","ummm a couple kissing in dark with ma flashlight, what are they searching?", "what's that you eat, mr Korean, brains?" "hey show me that document again.")
You don't even need to run the app yourself. It can be triggered by hacker on background and take a snapshot of you.
On top of this little needless permission it has following hidden permissions:
1. Unique IMSI, read about here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IMSI
2. MCC+MNC (CDMA)
3. Unique Devide ID
4. Cell Tower Name.
That's a lot of needless permissions for flashlight, these are there just to track you the app user and have nothing to do with your comfortable use of the app.
These are just 2 apps with totally needless permissions for their intended functioning. If you don't want your Windows and Linux have such security holes then why do you want your Android have them?! You don't want, that's the point and these apps would not be so popular if people would really know and care about their phone being secure.
It can be stated for sure that above exemplified permissions not listed on market are more useful for pranksters, criminals or someone plainly looking-down-on-all-the-dumb-sheep and not at all for any legitimate, user or customer friendly purposes.
There are very few tools to check for security and privacy problems in apps. That gives a sense that majority of devs do not want Android to be secure and private, because Android is another revenue generating platform through Google ads business of course. Were people more educated about the matter then Google ads business would shrink down as well. A private and secure Android can't be tracked or annoyed with ads. No ads, no profit. No security therefore means profit. Unfortunately this lack of security can be exploited by anyone with criminal or malignant intentions so very easily.
In my honest opinion. If someone keeps files like ccinfo they have to worry about being jacked then they deserve it. Should it happen. U shouldn't keep things on your phoney don't want the rest if the world to have
Sent from my Cyanocrack using Xparent Blue Tapatalk
You don't need to keep credit card info on phone, your using the credit card via Market or logging in to bank on phones browser is enough to intercept your credit card info. Your browser may show you xxxxxxxxxxxx+"last four digits only" but that doesn't mean the data to and from your device doesn't contain exact credit card number. It's encrypted, but that is merely a minor inconvenience for a hacker.
That is why being rooted is not advised to everyone. Mainly if they don't know what they are doing. Also customs roms are not for everyone. People flash them cause they think its cool and don't understand what they are doing. That is their problem. People should pay attention to the permissions that am app asks for. Common sense is the best protection. Main reason I don't do anything that deals with a bank on my phone.
Raoa said:
I have not seen much talk about security in XDA.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
There's talk. It's just not on important yet, because the android device is not being marketed like an OS is with a personal computer.
However, the more we do on our phones, the more we'll realize it needs protection like firewalls. We catch a few like CIQ or the Wimax exploit, but it's going to get worse as we advance in our integration. We do need to start now before exploits get worse and stay ahead of the curve.
Until that time, 4G exploits and root kit programs will run freely on our devices that houses a lot of our personal information.
Plus, for some stupid reason, there are a lot of people who think Linux is immuned to viruses and security holes due to it's code transparency. Android is being mainstreamed. It will soon be a continuous target like other existing popular software programs and operating systems.
And that's why iOS is far superior even without widgets or live wallpapers.
Something to think about.thanks for posting.
Sent from my HTC Glacier using XDA App
alex2792 said:
And that's why iOS is far superior even without widgets or live wallpapers.
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Click to collapse
IOS and Mac are just as vulnerable, maybe even more so because of there popularity and the misconception that IOS is secure and does not need AntiVirus protection. Just last week i removed a nasty virus on a brand new Macbook Pro so that is not the way to think. You need to act as if there are security issues and just be really careful at what link you click and what email you open.
mattfox27 said:
IOS and Mac are just as vulnerable, maybe even more so because of there popularity and the misconception that IOS is secure and does not need AntiVirus protection. Just last week i removed a nasty virus on a brand new Macbook Pro so that is not the way to think. You need to act as if there are security issues and just be really careful at what link you click and what email you open.
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Click to collapse
I'll give you OS X,but I've never heard of an iPhone virus while there are loads of malware on Android market.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk
I am not an expert on iOS nor do I have any wish to even know or use it, because Apple buys from suppliers that emply child labor and sweatshops.
When Linux started spreading around people also thought it has no viruses.
Same story repeats with every software.
For each different OS it takes merely time before people start to notice that their OS has viruses/trojans/spyware too. That doesn't mean their OS is not targeted. You should expect all sorts of thieves to use any and all opportunities.
Secondly OS does not matter so much as the matter that your device is connected to wifi, data, bluetooth, et or not. IP addresses, MAC, IMEI, etc they all stay the same on every platform. No matter which OS, they all connect to wireless networks, cell network, data, bluetooth, etc which all have set standards.
So someone wanting to track, spy, get your private info simply has to intercept the data your device sends to any network. If you don't use strong encryption to send info via network then it is easy to "wiretap" you.
Why is there so much spam, viruses, spyware in internet today? It's because the software managing internet is not made to be so secure. If it were secure then it would also be more private and safer for people to chat over net.
So not only OS's need to be more secure, but the very internet itself needs to be reformed.
This relates to SOPA and PIPA. Had those two bills been passed the next step would have been logically to make changes to all networks so you'd be more easily trackable, hackable, "wiretappable". It's simply logical, cause SOPA, PIPA were so defunctly worded as if asking/preparing for a third bill to regulate the networks.
So we must make sure that internet will be reformed for the private users and not for greedy corporations. We would not need to buy anti-spyware, anti-virus software if the internet were truly engineered for the welfare of humanity.
You could use any OS, bugged or not and not be afraid of loosing your property or privacy if the internet would stop such acts before they could harm you, the individual who is supposed to truly and freely benefit from the services; either for free or for honest price, but now you are robbed and think it is good to pay the thieves.
Raoa said:
Android itself is having very non-foolproof security system. All apps on unrooted phone are in sandbox. That's no security measure at all. It doesn't limit app from stealing your private info at all, it only cant delete the whole ROM.
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Please elaborate. The sandbox does prevent one app from reading the data of another, such as the CC info from the Market.
Also, are you sure Market sends the entire CC number? There's no reason for it to send it, the transaction is performed on Google's servers.
alex2792 said:
I'll give you OS X,but I've never heard of an iPhone virus while there are loads of malware on Android market.
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Click to collapse
Are you talking about viruses or malware? Please don't conflate the two.
Malware is easy to take care of - check the apps you're downloading for what permissions they want. It's as simple as that.
alex2792 said:
I'll give you OS X,but I've never heard of an iPhone virus while there are loads of malware on Android market.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk
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Click to collapse
Just before xmas an iphone developer admitted to deliberately uploading malware in his ios app to show malware can easily affect iphone.
http://m.intomobile.com/2011/11/08/security-expert-sneaks-malware-into-iphone-app-store/
That was for normal iphones. For jailbroken ones there are more malware apps.
Dave
Sent from my LG P920 using Tapatalk
Raoa, your absolutely right.
I've had the exact same thought recently
Its like the overall view of the Android landscape is ridden from real security apps, for the simple purpose of have the platform as open as possible. And while this is good for developers and users of this and other serious forums, its also open for the "dark" communities as well.
I often ask myself, if the ROM devs onboard have these thoughts themselves, as in, what is my source of this modded apk, is is straight from the Market or from another dubious, (do I dare say chinese forum, just an example)
And how clean is my code really?
And is all mods just legit just cuz they are from here?
I love that we have so many ppl having a desire to mess around with the OS, but I miss, as you say, the talk about having a go on security as well.
I dont know, but I do think that awareness, as you initial post direct us to, should be raised, as a natural step for any serious dev and users in general on XDA, to be more aware, of the code.
Im on my first year as an Android user, and ofcourse did have to gain root on my splendid Sensation. Why?, cuz I needed the security tools requiring root.
Ask again, why? Cuz I came from Winblows 7, and know what a jungle software is, and that is is indeed exploitable, like hell, you might say.
And Im gladd I did gain s-off and root, cuz its really really needed fo youre just a little concerned about your privacy in, mails, sms, location, usage pattern, netbanking, dropobox deposits of your ****, some might even be work related and therefore hold more than just your own privacy.
And then there is what you mentioned, our devices unique ID's, the intent "app install referrer" to "plug" you into admob/google analyzer and so on.
I love one guy here, Treve, who made the HTC tool for scanning for ****, Logging Test Tool, and in version 10, he made it aware of admob/mobclix/analytics, and my god it find a lot...
So Treve, please, if you read this, just go on, as every version you make is getting finer and finer.
We could learn from this guy, and others here that got more code-insight.
What we CAN do as a community at the very least, is to share our knowledge and tips for securing our phones.
HOST filtering, code scanning of apks and so on. using AV's and firewalls and so on.
Right from the start I noticed that Android is not a clean OS, nor is its app market, and I noticed this cuz I have another splendid little Linux system at hand, Smoothwall Express with url filtering and proxy enabled
and My god is Android and its aps LEAKING!
Have a look in your urlfilters on a standalone firewall the step after your wireless android phone, and watch how much **** is going on.
Well, I can tell you for a start that I have added atleast 100 new domains to my custom urlfilter, besides the casual downloadable HOST filters around the net, like the ones found in AdblockPlus and so on. But after android, heh, you need more than just advertising filtering, that much I can say.
Just as an example, like those you mentioned, I have one too, that I was made aware of by Avast on my phone tonight, that ChompSMS was being flagged as malware/trojan.
I thought, **** man, why this crap, Im quite fund of Chomp, really.
So I thought, no, imma let more that Avast on my phone have a go.
So I File Expert dump the full apk, and uploaded it for a scan on virustotal, just for the sake of it. And whatta'ya know, ClamAV, GData, Kaspersky, NOD32, and Sophos flagged it as that same Plankton.G variant as my on-phone Avast.
Great, I thought (sarkasm intended)
I thought a bit further and picked up APK Multi-Tool, had a decompile and a content-scan for just "http" in is readable code.
12 different domains is mentioned so far, and I didnt even poke in all of its xml's, just the smali's
I know android is by a far stretch advertising born, and ofcuz the app devs have a right to earn their money, no doubt about that, and I gladly pay for the good ****, like most ppl here believeably do, but.. 12 different .com's mentioned in its code is a no go for me.
I have earlier used Privacy Blocker, and Privacy Inspector from XEUDOXUS in the market, to make permission scanning, beside using LBE/HOST/Avast, and I like those two aps, the Inspector one is free but only can scan.
The paid Blocker can "repair" as a feature, but its not maintained enuff, so it often fails to make installable apks, so not really worth it for me anymore, but as a free too, it can tell you more about those permissions you mentioned.
But enuff said from me for now, lets just collect and share our tips and tricks, ALSO for security, not just developing ROM and mod's and hacks, as thou they are fine, if not to say, so cool and great, but, we need to be secure too.
Please do not polute the discussion with IOS vs Android and what not, cuz thats not the purpose of it, even thou it definitly concerns (g)A(r)pple products too.
Sincerely, Omnius
alex2792 said:
I'll give you OS X,but I've never heard of an iPhone virus while there are loads of malware on Android market.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Iphones can get viruses they come through SMS's and other sources not as bad as android apple keeps there market much more under control, but everything is vulnerable i work in a security team for a big corp and believe me nothing is safe.
Check these articles out i just found them on google.
I remember a while ago maybe a year or so there was a huge security hole in IOS5 and Mac waited a long time to tell the public and release a patch. The one major problem with Apple is when there are security threats they really try to keep it hush...Iphone's OS is tight but not totally secure. Its not viruses either its moslty just malware that charges you tons of money in texting i saw once an iphone that turned into a bot and at midnight it would dial a 900 number and just sit there all night at like $20 bucks a minunte then disconnect when it felt the phone move.
http://www.mactrast.com/2010/07/iphone-virus-discovered-be-vigilant-and-seek-advice/
http://techfragments.com/news/982/Software/Apple_iPhone_Virus_Spreads_By_SMS_Messages.html
I'm going to fanboy MIUI for a second.
When you install an app you are presented with a screen (separate from the market) that allows you to toggle all the permissions an app ask for between Allowed/Ask/Disabled.
More roms should adopt this.
NB: I haven't checked CM9 so it might be a CM9 feature that MIUI has polished or it might be native to MIUI.
weedy2887 said:
I'm going to fanboy MIUI for a second.
When you install an app you are presented with a screen (separate from the market) that allows you to toggle all the permissions an app ask for between Allowed/Ask/Disabled.
More roms should adopt this.
NB: I haven't checked CM9 so it might be a CM9 feature that MIUI has polished or it might be native to MIUI.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I wouldn't be so fast to praise MIUI.
weedy2887 said:
I'm going to fanboy MIUI for a second.
When you install an app you are presented with a screen (separate from the market) that allows you to toggle all the permissions an app ask for between Allowed/Ask/Disabled.
More roms should adopt this.
NB: I haven't checked CM9 so it might be a CM9 feature that MIUI has polished or it might be native to MIUI.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The problem is the "Average Joe" doesn't even look at those or doesn't know what they mean. I see so many viruses/malware/open security holes just because of user error its insane. Almost 90% of security breaches or problems originate from the end users not paying attention or just not knowing or caring. Also another thing i see so much when new clients call me with there servers melting down and all there banking info being stolen is they haven't installed any updates on there servers since they were set up 2-5 years ago. I worked for a large industrial supply company and all there servers running MS Server 2008 no updates had been installed and they were using AVG free on there main SQL server...INSANE LOL
Then theirs the users, "my computer was fine until my friend on facebook wanted my SS# and mothers maiden name and insisted i open his email attachment, now its acting weird what do you think is wrong?"
Brutal
what is the 4g exploit that you are talking about? And is it only with wimax or is lte part of it as well?
Oneiricl said:
Malware is easy to take care of - check the apps you're downloading for what permissions they want. It's as simple as that.
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It's absolutely amazing that people are willing to put up with something so ridiculous.
Sent from my SGH-I897
Guys,
I always wondered how harmful could be - in theory - a homebrew app installed on an Interop-unlocked wp7.5 device.
What is considered as a virus, spam or scam app?
The worst it could do is copy my contact list and upload it on its own server? (privacy issue).
Could an app take the whole OS down?
How much do we trust casual developer?
I always install homebrew apps found on the xda with no second thought. But a few days ago I installed an app to browse some *dirty* websites and dunno why, I started thinking about this issue?
Thanks to you all!
K.
Usually, you can trust the guys here on XDA.
However, even a normal app could steal your contacts. And a homebrew app on a b fully unlocked rom can do even more (of course! that's the point ).
But as said, XDA is usually quite OK, and if a big name like cotulla, ultrashot, Heathcliff74 (and all other amazing devs here on xda) is behind it, you're definately safe.
Oh, and what's a virus? That's nood easily defined. Just think of a file manager. It allows you to delete files. Deleting a file is nothing special. So what? Well, what if the app is going to delete random files? You got a virus... (That's why it's so hard to make behaviour analysis....)
LOL, there is no way WP can get a virus with it's locked down UI and isolated storage. WP isn not Windows OS. So don't worry.
Unlocked phones and risks
sinister1 said:
LOL, there is no way WP can get a virus with it's locked down UI and isolated storage. WP isn not Windows OS. So don't worry.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Please note that the OP is talking about an Interop-unlocked phone which is quite open compared to a WP7 phone in its normal state (which really does give little reason for worry).
If you ask me, the age of pranks and viruses that delete your files just because they can is over already quite some time. Today people most often try things with malware if there is money to be made.
So you may ask yourself: How could there be monetary profit from the very small base of users with fully-unlocked WP7 phones? Especially factoring in the fact that many of those users being anything than noobs which will get suspicious easily.
If I was a malware author I really would look out for greener pastures
if you don't trust the developer you can easily check the code by decompiling it. ok... this requires some knowledge in c# development and doesn't work for native code.
Well, decompiling native code is entirely possible. It's just more difficult to read the resulting source.
There risk is absolutely there. The way malware would work on WP7 is different from how it would work on a PC, but it's certainly possible (and actually, on a full-unlock ROM you could write malware very similar to how you'd write it for PC). Consider the various kinds of Android malware; WP7 malware (with sufficient permissions) could do things like send SMS to "premium" numbers, track you using the GPS, and other unpleasantries.
This is the reason that, for example, Heathcliff74 made Root Tools require that the user manually mark an app as Trusted before the app receives full permissions. Of course, that requires that you trust Root Tools itself (and it's quite heavily obfuscated, so decompiling it won't do you much good) but as @chabun said, he's one of the "big names" in WP7 homebrew and is considered trustworthy.
For myself, this question is one of the reasons I release the source code to my apps. If you've got the source, you can check it for any malicious or even undesirable behavior, and if you want to you can modify it to suit yourself better.
kevyn82 said:
Guys,
I always wondered how harmful could be - in theory - a homebrew app installed on an Interop-unlocked wp7.5 device.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, there are quite a few harmful things a malicious homebrew app could do:
spy on you all the time using the built-in cam and mic;
record all your phone and video calls;
copy all your text messages;
track and report all your movements (GPS);
upload all your personal pictures to a third party;
call international or "premium" phone numbers without your knowledge, generating large phone bills;
send "premium" text messages or registering you to premium subscriptions;
sent text messages in your name to influence a TV show vote;
reroute all your phone calls through a "premium carrier", again generating large costs;
transform your phone into an email relay or VoIP for spamming;
record all your usernames, passwords, account numbers or credit cards for financial profit;
make your phone become a BitTorrent relay, eating through your mobile data allowance in a few days;
I am sure that we can find a few more by brainstorming a little bit, or by googling "iOS malware" or "Android malware"...
So the key questions is not what is possible in theory, but how much do you trust the developer of an app, homebrew or not.
Cheers,
Stephen
GoodDayToDie said:
This is the reason that, for example, Heathcliff74 made Root Tools require that the user manually mark an app as Trusted before the app receives full permissions. Of course, that requires that you trust Root Tools itself (and it's quite heavily obfuscated, so decompiling it won't do you much good) but as @chabun said, he's one of the "big names" in WP7 homebrew and is considered trustworthy.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks for your answer!
Yes I think some premium dev like yourself, Heathcliff74 etc are deeply trusted on here.
But still I am pretty sure the average user doesn't care about names or source. He or she won't be able to read though the source code or understanding what does require an app access to.
Also, if the app would require "elevated privileges" trough Heathcliff's Root Tool, he wouldn't think twice about granting to it.
Then if something bad would happen, then it would blame the OS, not him- or herself.
Things like requiring user confirmation to call or send a text within an app, from my prospective, never should be avoided.
On iOS for instance a lot of user complained to the carrier (here in Italy), some international sms sent billed in their accounts. It was iMessage first set up to send a txt to the UK (which costs on avg 0.30 Eur, compared to 0.10-0.15 a single sms).
But I am wondering now why jail-broken iPhone aren't subject to malewares like the open Android platform. I'm sure unlocked iOS would be a pretty green garden for them.
rbrunner7 said:
Please note that the OP is talking about an
If you ask me, the age of pranks and viruses that delete your files just because they can is over already quite some time. Today people most often try things with malware if there is money to be made.
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Click to collapse
You're right, just wanted to show that it's not really easy to say what's bad and what's good...
There's been malware for jailbroken iPhones. There was even a worm that spread by infecting people who had enabled an SSH server on their phone but left the default password.
The reason it's less of an issue there than on Android is that malware is typically a business - that is, it's done to make money - and so you target the largest number of people you can. There are fewer iPhones than Android phones, and far fewer jailbroken iPhones than Android phones that can access the market or even install apps from outside the official market (pretty much all of them).
With the continuing checks, big developers (Ahem, Samsung, Netflix, Snapchat) keep putting out to block rooted devices and th list of apps rooted devices can't use keeps increasing. Personally, I find it hard to use a non-rooted device, due to the fact I like having data access, full system access, and overall control of my battery. Though for the first time, I'm finding it a royal pain that my device doesn't pass safetynet. It makes me wonder a few things.
A. What does the future hold for those who want to actually have full control of their devices? Eventually, I could forsee most apps requiring SN.
B. If Linux is inherently more secure, and we can gain root access there, why not on a phone running Android?
C. What can we do to fight back? Am I the only one who would laugh if all these companies got Mr. Roboted over this kind of restriction?
What are your thoughts?
hkbladelawhk said:
With the continuing checks, big developers (Ahem, Samsung, Netflix, Snapchat) keep putting out to block rooted devices and th list of apps rooted devices can't use keeps increasing. Personally, I find it hard to use a non-rooted device, due to the fact I like having data access, full system access, and overall control of my battery. Though for the first time, I'm finding it a royal pain that my device doesn't pass safetynet. It makes me wonder a few things.
A. What does the future hold for those who want to actually have full control of their devices? Eventually, I could forsee most apps requiring SN.
B. If Linux is inherently more secure, and we can gain root access there, why not on a phone running Android?
C. What can we do to fight back? Am I the only one who would laugh if all these companies got Mr. Roboted over this kind of restriction?
What are your thoughts?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes we will have control
You actually already do ,but to make future things ,you must be at the front on the line. Or in a leadership or position of information or power.
If you have the right intelligence... You can do anything.
solarsoap said:
Yes we will have control
You actually already do ,but to make future things ,you must be at the front on the line. Or in a leadership or position of information or power.
If you have the right intelligence... You can do anything.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Care to expand?
hkbladelawhk said:
Care to expand?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Expanded
I'm currently working on a ROM and a kernal basis to give a base control starting point.
If we segment and completely remove the manufacturing sector right from the beginning. We then have software control of the free source which they also have control.
If we can program without any manufacturing interference and eliminate the user screw up down to a minimal level ,we can be in base control.
The bases of a ruled followed release. Simple stripped down measures. Starting with the kernal.
Take any kernal and strip out all of the manufacturing segments and drivers right from the beginning. Get only the basics loaded and stable.
That would first solve allot of confusion.
If we can boot it we can run it.
That is one example.
I'm currently setting up the guidelines to help everyone who helps me in the dream project to make the base kernels and base ROMs avalible.
I have a blog started and updating the information as I make spare time.
I have no one helping me as of yet.
I don't know where and how to post the information on this forum thing as of yet.
We will never be in control of certain elements...
For 1 specific reason.
National Security trumps our civil liberties. A countries security rules above all else. They force certain things to take place regarding safety.
That negates anyone's freedoms ,because your freedoms can jepordize security.
Even in the programming and manufacturing sectors of any device or invention.
Open source is about as free as you can get
Please forgive spelling errors and other things
Thank you.