Database Info

the worst service ever?

my god moblile fun the worst compnay ever
I sent a postal order to buy a PDA case on the third of jan>
Date 23 January 2006
Re: Cancellation of contract/complaint
On 03/01/2006, I ordered a
1 x O2 XDA Mini & MDA Compact Krusell Premium Leather Flip Case Product reference: 5248
From you, at a cost of 16.95 Inc postage
Shipping Method: Royal Mail Special Delivery
Guaranteed next working day by 1PM for orders received before 4pm
Shipping Cost: 5.00 GBP
Order total is 16.95 GBP
So I sent two postal orders via a value of 17:00gbp
The payment was made via mail order and sent recorded delivery,
Arriving and signed for on the 5th of January 2006,
Postal order 0738 354158 & 2398 836249 sent via recoded delivery
no DK 4124 4527 7GB
With the payment I enclosed a letter giving full product description with your product reference code and delivery/mailing address
As per your site’s guide I expected delivery within 2-3 working days,
3/01/2006 Ordered sent
5/01/2006 payment arrived and signed for at Mobile fun
8/01/2006 email
I emailed upon the 8th asking for an expected delivery date, I got no reply
11/01/2006 telephone call
I called upon the 11th and spoke to Tim or tom,
Who told me that definitely the postal order had never arrived to your place of business?
I then paid 2pounds for the royal mail to inform me, that it had indeed arrived on the 5th and was signed for by Victoria carling or curlan (they cud not make out the full lettering),
I called back to mobile fun speaking to ibby and asked if that was indeed a member of staff,
Which they assured me it was, suddenly the signature for delivery was found
But they had lost the postal orders,
I asked to speak to someone in authority and was put thru to Scott,
He then said he will sort the issue, and if the postal orders were not found he would send the goods as I had proof of delivery.
16/01/2006 telephone call
I spoke to ibby, who was unable to find me on the system at all,
I recalled and spoke to dean finally a polite and helpful person
He said sorry for all the treatment and assured me it would arrive on the 19th at the latest,
after a long call it was agreed that they would use someone else’s postal orders they had found to sort my order(seems they just have lost or misplaced stuff laying around eh) setting up a new order for the same goods with this refence number MF748648 and a follow up email to confirm
23/01/2006 telephone call
I had received no goods yet again; I called and spoke to Alan
Who then told me,
That you don’t have the goods in at all nor can you give me a date of stock arrival and that it was practice for staff to, inform customers that it will arrive shortly to avoid loosing the business by keeping a client in hope of a delivery.
Each time I have called mobile fun it’s been a 15-20 wait on the phone for an answer
Further more the staff doesn’t seem to have a clue how to process a postal order delivery,
At all times I was calm and very polite and offered any information that they needed,ypur company has given me the impression of total incompetence
And although the amount was a small fee, (thank god I wasn’t ordering my new .jasjar via your company, which iwas going to but not anymore),It was more the attitude and treatment I found bad,
I’ve never had to write before due to a customer service problem as im very laid back and realise things can happen
But after all this time and no goods & with such bad staff communication I feel ,if I was a manager and this is how things were run under my shift id be outraged, I would have offered an upgrade product in place for the time and hassle to keep customers happy and future business
However all I wish from your awful company is a full refund within
Next 7/14 days along with confirmation that the contract has been terminated.
My future pda and ipod needs will be meet with a capable company.
I will be shocked if I even get a reply.
If I don’t receive a refund within that time, I will be arriving in person it’s a small fee but that’s not the point, Also if I don’t receive a refund I will take legal action.
Bottom line is mobile fun cashed the postal orders and then left it as they were unable to supply the goods
A simple call or email on the 5th to say no stock available and offer a replacement product or refund that would have been fine.
I look forward to hearing from you on this matter
UPDATE:
STILL no sign of goods or refund or communication from yourself
12:55 2006-02-10, I called and spoke to Scott who put me on to manager, Alan Docherty.
His words were
“ive spoke to the accounts dept and they will 100% send out a refund on Monday (that being the 13th)and ill give you a ring then, if I don’t its cos im battered from the weekend,so just give me a call”
I suppose this kind of work ethic and attitude explains, why im getting such poor service.
In fact I think if I really pushed myself to give up and not bother in work, I may indeed be suitable for a position in your company. not sure about your working hours but very little seems to get done and the attitude is very laid back, but then again I actually like to take pride in my work and give a days work for a days wage.
Update: 2006-02-15
I had again left a reasonable time after the stated delivery, upon ringing yet again I was put thru to Mike,
Who was unable to tell me why I hadn’t received the refund but will look into the matter?
Yours sincerely,
[][]
if the money aint here by friday sod the amount by going down,i can describe how lax and off hand they are when i call,they almost laugh,they dont give a damn,
ok minor amount but youd think they would have some customer relations

imagine if that had been a 500 quid pda id ordered,man ill not trust these jokers again

seems im not alone
Not a good comapany I'm afraid mate
I ordered an unlock code for a tricky mobile once (I had been assured by everyone that it was not unlockable - but mobilefun offered a soloution )
The sent me a code - which was absolute rubbish - it was simply the shortcode for checking if there was an SP lock present
At the time the payment hadn't even been taken - so I sent them a mail telling them that the code was not even an unlock code so they had better not bill me
The following day , they took the money ! I mailed them about 6 times and then gave up (it was only £2.99 so I couldn't be bothered )
I have heard nothing but bad stuff about them

Did anyone buy from chinamobile?

Hello everyone,
I found a man called Kenny Taylor that sells phones,and I compared prices,
he`s prices are ridiculously low,
he`s saying that he works at chinamobile as a sales rep,
though I really couldn`t find any information about him or about phones in the site,I could manage to see only blackberry`s there.
He claims that the phones are brand new,in original box and with all accessories and they are not china clones.
He`s quotes for the phones I wanted -
iPhone 3GS 16GB (unlocked) - 300$
iPhone 3GS 32GB (unlocked) - 350$
HTC Hero - 250$
HTC Nexus one - 230$
International shipping via Fedex/USPS - 60$.
The prices here are 300$ less than the MSRP,and I don`t know if I should buy from him - maybe it`s a scam or something.
If anyone knows the person/company,and did buy from one of them - it would be nice to hear about that.
*if the thread is not in the right section of the forum,it would be nice if you could move it to the correct one*
**this thread is not about advertising the company/the guy,just for information matters**
Lots of thanks,
Danny.

100% SCAM!! Those prices are ludicrous, no way in hell are those real, most likely you will get nothing at all. and FYI, mobiles and pretty much all electronics are more expensive in China than in the US, and China Mobile shops are the MOST expensive places. STAY AWAY!

Thank you mlalahoi, actually I was going to buy the nexus one from him,
knew I should ask in here first.

Quick update -
I have got an answer from the company,I have to say that it sounds very believable..
Thanks for your mail.
This person that you are talking about i don't no him but he can be a
scammer too that want to you buy from him...
So i will advice you to buy from us to try and have believe in the
company...we no that there is alot of scam out there.
We are not scam we are real company that as been in business for more
then 8 years now...once we confirm your payment we are going to ship
the phone to you at your home address.
The reason the price is so low is the we buy direct from the company
that product the phone in bulks and right now we are running promo in
the company for buy 3units and get 1 for free.
So if you are going to buy the Htc Nexus one only the payment is via
western union not paypa...because is too low for the payment
condition.
Below is the condition about that payment
Any orders form $100usd to $3000usd=== via western union.
Any orders form $3000usd to $4500usd=== via bank transfer.
Any order form $4500usd above is via paypal.
So you are going to pay the money via western union money transfer.
So get back with your shipping address information so that we can
started packing and label your order ready for shipment.
Regards
Sale Rep.
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dany74q said:
Quick update -
I have got an answer from the company,I have to say that it sounds very believable..
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That's not believable at all if you know what to look for. First, the grammar and spelling is atrocious. Any real company would take the time to actually write their correspondence letters in a professional manner. Secondly, a legitimate, respectable company would never use Western Union to transfer money, no matter the amount. Every money transfer scam I've ever seen uses Western Union, since it's not traceable or reversable. I would not buy from any seller selling new devices at those rediculous prices; even if bought at wholesale prices, they would lose a lot of money selling that cheap. My advice is to stick with a reputable seller so you don't end up losing a few hundred dollars and not get anything in return, as I can guarantee you won't get what you order from these people.

Thank you for your answer Dave,I`ll stay away.
Once again - thank you all for your time.

dany74q said:
Thank you for your answer Dave,I`ll stay away.
Once again - thank you all for your time.
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It's not that bad, heh, but there are a few things you should keep in mind:
do not buy "genuine" stuff from China, either you're gonna get a fake or worse: nothing
go with established stores like DealExtreme or FocalPrice
use only PayPal, only scammers use Western Union
engrish is somewhat the norm, even with bigger stores :/
if you're getting a phone from there, choose one which has been properly reviewed, DealExtreme is very good in that regard as they have a very active forum and users , so you know what are you buying

If she reaches for a handful you'd better have the energy!

Apple reseller's law suit threatens internet freedom in Greece

http://teacherdudebbq.blogspot.com/2010/12/apple-resellers-law-suit-threatens.html
"As I write this Greek users of Twitter are flooding the micro - blogging service with comments and complaints about the Apple reseller in Greece, Systemgraph. According to the newspaper Protothema, a Greek internet user is being sued for 200,000 euros by the company following complaints he made online about how his attempts to get his imac repaired went awry.
In his post blogger Arkoudos wrote that Dimitris Papadimitriadis, a 35 year old doctor problems began when he saw that there were shadows on the screen and returned it (under guarantee) to the authorised service provider, Systemgraph who identified and claimed to have repaired the issue. However, when Papadimitriadis realised that the problem had not been fixed and returned his machine once more to the company his troubles began in earnest.
On the other hand Systemgraph stated in their defence that the customer had been "rude and aggresive" and that the company had offered to repair the screen once more and was under no legal obligation to replace the machine (that being the responsibility of the store that had sold the computer). According to their statement on the AV Club forum the law suit was in response to an "organised attempt to slander and insult" the company via social media sites, blogs and forums.
This case in disturbing on two levels. Most importantly is the idea that any unwanted or disagreeble comment made on the internet can be punished with massive fines or the threat of legal action. As Papadimitriadis puts it on Twitter, "If the blogger/consumer loses (the case), then all we will be able to write in our own name will be recipes". Already freedom of expression and freedom of the press in Greece is in deep crisis with the country's Press Freedom Index ranking dropping over 30 places this year alone making it the lowest placed in the EU.
Also what the case highlights is just how weak consumer protection is in Greece and that buying any big ticket item involves a risk which most other European consumers do not have to factor in. Even when the guarantee is valid some companies are loathed to accept the costs involved with repairing or replacing faulty goods. Of course, the consumer can insist on their rights as Papadimitriadis said he did when he took his case to the consumer ombudsman but this can be a long and often futile affair and even if the courts find in favour of the customer businesses can just chose to ignore the decision.
Whatever the rights or wrongs of the case are the uproar which is currently being generated on the internet via Twitter and blogs shows that consumers do have the power retailers think carefully about how they are preceived online and remind them of the power of negative word of mouth".

That's just a ****ty deal! I don't see how they aren't obligated to fix it if they,
1.Didn't fix it in the first place,
2.It's still under a guarantee.
If they took it in to fix it, but didn't, and I took if I had to take it back again to get it fixed, I would be mad too! Even more when Macs aren't exactly the lowest priced item on the block. If I'm buying a product and a service from you, then actually do your job.
People are taking the Internet too seriously. The company I used to work for let go of me because of a facebook post, just saying that "work ****ing sucked today".

Too bad he couldn't use that first amendment right...
And.. always need to be careful what you post on the intarwebs it seems nowadays - especially if you use facebook and don't set your privacy settings correctly.
Might be dumb but this is the turn of the times. I hope the Doctor wins as he was sharing his experience with support for just the one machine. Apple is getting ridiculous after "Attenagate".

avgjoegeek said:
And.. always need to be careful what you post on the intarwebs it seems nowadays - especially if you use facebook and don't set your privacy settings correctly.
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that idea is just wrong , why the users ? why is it the people who "should" hold their mouths always ? isnt the consumer internet made for the people ?
whys it always the honest tax payer who has to back off , when unlawfulness , and tyranny appears ?
there should be an uprising and boycotts against scum corporations and companies and governments that see people as nothing but cockroaches
too bad ppl have "better" things to do , like watch football on tv , with their mouth shut

Have you been cheated by Samsung warranty service? Escalation procedure?

Just for some perspective, I have been in the electronics business for nearly a decade. Working with microelectronics is something I do on a daily basis.
So, imagine my disappointment when I sent a phone to Samsung for warranty service, only to have them return it with reported water damage! This is remarkable, considering the phone has never come into contact with liquid water.
Since my warranty was voided, I took apart my phone and found...no signs of water intrusion! You can find details in a document I sent off to Samsung for review at dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/73830636/noteii.htm
What concerns me is that when I contacted them for assistance, all I received was an apology and request that I contact their voice support, which is notorious for being unhelpful and having no escalation procedure.
Is there a way of escalating my claim through Samsung? I would love to have this matter resolved, but I am concerned with their warranty policy.
I'm willing to bet that there are many others like me who have had phones returned with "water damage" but have actually fallen victim to Samsung trying to save a few bucks because they know that people don't have the technical expertise to dispute their claims.
If you have a story similar to mine, I'd like to hear from you. I have a feeling that this happens fairly often, and we would benefit as consumers if we can gather this information into a common knowledge base and raise the issue to Samsung directly.

My brother got that with his one week old, supposedly waterproof phone.
I'll let the irony of that sink in.
It does seem to happen often, did you check the water mark inside? It can get activated by any kind of everyday moisture really and isn't valid.
Anyway, he stood on his claim (and rightly so) and had a new phone in no time, but has to be said we're Norwegians. The laws here protect the consumer, not the corporation.
Sent from my GT-I9000 using XDA Premium 4 mobile app

Hr Kristian said:
My brother got that with his one week old, supposedly waterproof phone.
I'll let the irony of that sink in.
It does seem to happen often, did you check the water mark inside? It can get activated by any kind of everyday moisture really and isn't valid.
Anyway, he stood on his claim (and rightly so) and had a new phone in no time, but has to be said we're Norwegians. The laws here protect the consumer, not the corporation.
Sent from my GT-I9000 using XDA Premium 4 mobile app
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Unfortunately, I purchased the phone out-of-cycle through Amazon, so I don't believe I can go to the carrier for this (lesson learned). I'm sure there are folks here at XDA who have had to deal with Samsung customer service. If anyone has any pointers on how I can get through to someone who will listen to my complaint, I feel like I've been beating my head against a wall these past few days trying to get through to someone over there.

Thanks for the info.
I bought a new Samsung printer and after a few months it stopped working. They asked me to courier back free and :laugh:fixed it for me while it was still under warranty.
Maybe phone and printer servicing departments are different.

I have a slight different issue
I have purchased a Galaxy S4 on 10th August, 2013 and I was promised one time screen replacement offer by paying Rs. 500.
I have submitted a request in the customer care (Service Request No. 8461219090) for the replacement of my cracked screen. They verified my phone and promised me a screen replacement at any service centre under the said scheme.
I submitted my phone on 16th January, 2014 to the samsung service centre located at the 1st Floor, Africa House, Topiwala Lane, Grant Road (E), Mumbai - 400007. The representative took Rs. 500 and told me that he will have to verify with the customer care in order to change the screen under the offer. He did not provide me any invoice for the same. The Job Card Number for the request is 4167025423.
I called at the service centre on 23rd of January, 2014 where I had a talk with Mr. Srikant who informed me that my screen has been replaced and I can come and pick the phone from the service centre.
I went today morning at 10 am and they refused to deliver me the phone stating that some formalities are pending from Samsung Global.
This has caused me immense agony as I had to specially travel 40 kms for this. Also, my work has been hampered as I had to spare time from my office timings to carry out this activity. Further, even on my repeated request, I was not provided a formal invoice/receipt for the amount of Rs. 500 paid. The representative wrote a note on the job card stating the same which does not suffice as evidence.

Sorry but I closed this thread. xda is really not the place to work out customer service issues with Samsung.
Thanks!

Is S B E Ltd. scamming people? Xiaomi, Sony, OnePlus, Huawei, Apple, Motorola, Cat and others are involved.

Does anybody of you return the phone to SBE Ltd. before?
SBE Ltd (Service Beyond Expectations)​Unit A1-A2 Beaver Industrial Estate, Beaver Road, Ashford, Kent, TN23 7SH
https://sbeglobalservice.com/worldwide-locations/
What was the outcome?
Reviews of SBE online:
Yell (~60% of negative comments)
https://www.yell.com/biz/sbe-ltd-ashford-4846566/#reviews
Google (twice as many negative comments)
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/SBE+Ltd/@51.1355629,0.8657654,17z/data=!4m17!1m8!3m7!1s0x47deda4b23107a5b:0xe5cdb3c3290af8c5!2sBeaver+Industrial+Estate,+Beaver+Rd,+Ashford+TN23+7SH!3b1!8m2!3d51.1355629!4d0.8679541!16s/g/1tmbvd91!3m7!1s0x47dedb0ee0f74def:0x8c5eb7539d9cc645!8m2!3d51.1359687!4d0.8681304!9m1!1b1!16s/g/1thsqnrf
Trustpilot >750 negative reviews (13%)
https://uk.trustpilot.com/review/uk.sbeglobalservice.com?stars=1
I found those reviews SHOCKING!
After reading a few of the stories you will notice the pattern. This company operates globally since 1996!
​This is an invitation to the discussion as the scale of this practice is huge!
Xiaomi, Sony, OnePlus, Huawei, Apple, Motorola, Cat and others are involved.
After reading a few of the stories you should notice the pattern. This company operates globally since 1996!

Fostel said:
I planned to return a phone that was switched on only once. It was purchased as a gift but the birthday boy did not like it.
Contacted customer service via chat the next day asking what the return procedure looks like. Instead of explaining, they started the process for me and I received the jiffy bag today.
I had a gut feeling that something is not right when I realized that the jiffy bag was posted by this SCAM company so XIAOMI UK already broke the LAW by selling my details to them (third party - GDPR).
And I mean, everything. My name, home address, email, phone number also IMEI, and the serial number of the device.
The included letter state: ‘Returning your Device for DOA Assessment’
As far as I know, DOA means Death On Arrival. I never claimed the device to be damaged in any way. It was turned on for an hour or two and put down. The condition is the same as it arrived minus a foil wrap (there were no seal stickers on the box).
• What do they play here? Is this a generic letter for a 'change of mind' return?
• Does anybody of you returned the phone to Xiaomi before?
This is an invitation to the discussion as the scale of this practice is huge!
Xiaomi, Sony, OnePlus, Huawei, Apple, Motorola, Cat and others are involved.
After reading a few of the stories you will notice the pattern. This company operates globally since 1996!
I found those reviews. SHOCKING!
https://www.yell.com/biz/sbe-ltd-ashford-4846566/#reviews
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/SBE+Ltd/@51.1355629,0.8657654,17z/data=!4m17!1m8!3m7!1s0x47deda4b23107a5b:0xe5cdb3c3290af8c5!2sBeaver+Industrial+Estate,+Beaver+Rd,+Ashford+TN23+7SH!3b1!8m2!3d51.1355629!4d0.8679541!16s/g/1tmbvd91!3m7!1s0x47dedb0ee0f74def:0x8c5eb7539d9cc645!8m2!3d51.1359687!4d0.8681304!9m1!1b1!16s/g/1thsqnrf
https://uk.trustpilot.com/review/uk.sbeglobalservice.com?stars=1
​SBE Ltd (Service Beyond Expectations)​Unit A1-A2 Beaver Industrial Estate, Beaver Road, Ashford, Kent, TN23 7SH
https://sbeglobalservice.com/worldwide-locations/
Why nobody is discussing this?!
I decided to keep this phone but this may be the last Xiaomi phone that I purchased.
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They responded to your review left on trustpilot....
I dunno...they don't look like a complete "scam" you are making them out as...there are tons of positive reviews among the completely negative -- that isn't so likely if it was a complete scam. It sucks they were given your information and details, but I don't know how they would function (as a repair/replacement company) without some of that information...

simplepinoi177 said:
They responded to your review left on trustpilot....
I dunno...they don't look like a complete "scam" you are making them out as...there are tons of positive reviews among the completely negative -- that isn't so likely if it was a complete scam. It sucks they were given your information and details, but I don't know how they would function (as a repair/replacement company) without some of that information...
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Thanks for popping in. Some of those positive reviews on Trustpilot do look fake. FYI Trustpilot can be played and many shady companies do it... daily. Also, would you write poems in reviews of the repair centre after they just did their job? I would still be upset at the manufacturer that the item broke in the first place and I had to go through a warranty claim.
I have read hundreds of reviews last night and I truly feel for people crying out their stories. They cannot all be wrong or coincidental as there is a pattern that I know full well as I learned the hard way. I lost my property and after months of chasing got another device with a different issue (somebody else's return). I sold it privately to minimise loss and moved on but many are naive enough to send it back to them again to get scammed a second time.
I am just trying to make people aware that this practice exists. Do not get scammed folks. Do your research. Peace!

Maybe the online chat was a chatbot and got the reason for return wrong. Or maybe it's Xiaomi UK's policy to have all phones returned, where the customer has changed their mind, to have the phone inspected to ensure it's still in as new condition.
Whatever the case Xiaomi UK are within their right to nominate any company to act as their service centre agent, and as such are well within data protection laws in sending relevant customer details to any third party company chosen as their agent to act on their behalf. It's exactly the same as passing on your details to a courier to deliver the phone, and I don't see any complaint about that. You will have scrolled passed something telling you these things when skipping past the Ts and Cs.
There does not appear to be a scam, nor has anything illegal happened.
It's just unfortunate that Xiaomi UK have chosen such an apparently disreputable company to act as their service centre.

Robbo.5000 said:
Maybe the online chat was a chatbot and got the reason for return wrong. Or maybe it's Xiaomi UK's policy to have all phones returned, where the customer has changed their mind, to have the phone inspected to ensure it's still in as new condition.
Whatever the case Xiaomi UK are within their right to nominate any company to act as their service centre agent, and as such are well within data protection laws in sending relevant customer details to any third party company chosen as their agent to act on their behalf. It's exactly the same as passing on your details to a courier to deliver the phone, and I don't see any complaint about that. You will have scrolled passed something telling you these things when skipping past the Ts and Cs.
There does not appear to be a scam, nor has anything illegal happened.
It's just unfortunate that Xiaomi UK have chosen such an apparently disreputable company to act as their service centre.
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You must be mad thinking that was a chatbot.
It's obvious you did not read the reviews of the people who had their property stolen/damaged/not adequately replaced/ money extorted.
In the UK, you need to consent to your details being passed to a third party otherwise, it will be a data breach. A courier or postman cannot be compared to any Ltd. company.
You've completely missed the point so I edited the original post to make it clearer.
EOT.

Fostel said:
You must be mad thinking that was a chatbot.
It's obvious you did not read the reviews of the people who had their property stolen/damaged/not adequately replaced/ money extorted.
Also, you are wrong about UK law. You need to consent to your details being passed to the third party. A courier or postman cannot be compared to any Ltd. company. You are free to send them your devices if you will.
You completely miss the point so I edited the original post to make it clearer.
EOT.
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You gave no info either way to indicate if the online chat was real or a bot. I only gave that out as a possible cause of why Xiaomi thought you wanted to return the phone because it was broken.
I've done numerous data protection courses in the UK for various companies of worked for. I know they don't need to ask your permission. As said previously this fact would have been buried in the T's and C's.
Xiaomi UK have obviously outsourced the service centre repair work to SBE Ltd. (Along with many other manufacturers) They have the right to forward relevant information to SBE to allow SBE to do the required work on their behalf.
It is exactly the same as when the phone was delivered. Xiaomi do not deliver themselves, they outsource the work to a delivery company. In order to do this, they have to give your details to the delivery company. In order for SBE to perform their duties for Xiaomi, they too require details of Xiaomi's customers they are performing the service for.
Xiaomi (and all other manufacturers) are not allowed to send customer data that is not relevant, but they are allowed to pass on data that is relevant and required to allow SBE to do the services they are contracted to perform.
The unfortunate part of all this is that it's not financially sensible for these manufacturers to have their own dedicated UK service centres. I would guess that almost all manufacturers use SBE Ltd. because their is no other company in the UK that can compete with the scale of work SBE can do. So as customers in the UK, if you have a problem within the warranty period, you have no choice but hope SBE get it right with your phone.

Now to get the point. In your case, your contract was with Xiaomi. If SBE had stuffed up your phone, whilst working on behalf of Xiaomi, then that would be between you and Xiaomi to work out. It would be Xiaomi's responsibility to deal with SBE. If Xiaomi's contractors are incompetent, that is only Xiaomi's problem to deal with.