Database Info

Fuze--Gateway to an...iPhone?

Before I get started, please don't scream. I am just *waiting* for the douchebag assault to begin, because after all, this is an internet forum and it'll happen come hell or high water no matter what I say. This post is not for the douchebags, it's for the reasonable people who are willing to discuss, listen and talk in a rational way.
I got my first fuze the day before launch (November 10th), and out of the gate it was problematic. Now, I was and still am enamored by the feature set, and the hardware is amazing when it's working right. My first fuze locked up and crashed programs *constantly*. After a week and a half I exchanged it for another, and this was a better experience, but still flawed.
Fuze #2 never once locked up, but it did crash programs pretty frequently. Not every day and not every program and not even consistently, but it did so with enough frequency to be damn annoying. The AT&T software load, as everyone already knows, is complete ****. It makes a 528Mhz phone with 8 times the RAM of my old Wizard feel slower than the Wizard with a hacked ROM, and that's just sad. I've been using my Wizard (a cingular 8125) since launch, and I can honestly say that unlike most phones the experience only kept getting *better* as the hardware aged, and it was able to do so as a direct result of the fine folks of XDA who have cooked up some really amazing ROM's. The work you guys do is phenomenal and it only gets better as time goes on.
And so I loaded up a custom ROM from here on my Fuze. It was, to say the least, WORLDS better than the AT&T stock ROM. But it still had its annoyances. Some programs would still crash. There was still hesitation here and there when using the Manila 3D UI. Finding and acquiring software to run on it is a pain. Don't get me wrong--Windows Mobile has GOBS of great software available and I've blown hours upon hours finding it, playing with it, enjoying it, over the last 2 and a half years.
Of course, that's part of the problem--to get the really good stuff you have to search endlessly all over the web to find the really great stuff for WinMo. XDA is a terrific place because there is so much stuff discussed and linked to, but even here you have to trudge through miles of posts and it's a pain, plus there's the whole process of downloading, unarchiving, copying to the device, installing to the device--only to do it all over again when the next great ROM comes out. This isn't the fault of anyone here, but it's evidence of a problem that's grown beyond the community's ability to solve--the problem is with Windows Mobile itself and the infrastructure that does--or more accurately does NOT--support it.
Let me 'splain. When I finally had enough of my Fuze, I took it back to AT&T to find something else. I dicked with the Blackberry, I hated it. I've always hated blackberry, both from an infrastructure support side and from an interface side. So that was out. I've never been an Apple guy EVER. In college we had some piece of **** Mac's that were just miserable to use and I learned very well to hate them, so I hadn't even considered an iPhone.
And then I tried it. My first response, as an official Mac hater, was to find its flaws. The camera is mediocre (2mp? LAME!). But then, I have a REAL camera for taking any serious pictures (let's face it, no cell phone camera is going to replace a nice Canon or Nikon any time soon for high end photography). The screen resolution isn't as nice as the Fuze...yet it's still better than the Wizard was, and it's not so low that it ends the world. I hate that there are no hardware buttons except for Home, Power, Mute and the volume toggle, but then, the Fuze wasn't replete with buttons either and I'd already weaned myself off the Wizard's multiple buttons anyway. And it pisses me off that I can't use a friggin' MicroSD card to cheaply expand my storage.
But then I started to see what the device is really all about, and what really blew me away is how easy it is to use and to access a fat library of good apps, both paid and free. I don't even have to leave the device, I can browse it all straight from the phone, install it straight from the phone in a single step, and when I plug it into my PC it's all synced. When the next software update happens I just sync and everything I installed is put right back where I wanted it to be.
In short, I finally see why people are tripping over the iPhone. It's not the hardware, because let's face it the iPhone is outclassed in hardware by plenty of phones, including the Fuze. It's the interface, it's the software, it's the ease of use. And for me, at this point in my life where I'm trying to do more with my time than ever before, that makes it a great device choice for me. The iPhone, simply enough, will save me time and effort, and it enables me to do things I just can't do with Windows Mobile.
Now, my sincere hope is that WinMo 7 fixes these many issues. I hope it comes with an easy and fast UI. I hope the devices have multitouch screens. I hope there is finally an integrated backend infrastructure and an app store that nets easy access to both developers and consumers of applications and games. I hope it standardizes on a required minimum of built in storage but outdoes Apple by allowing you to expand it further with MicroSD (or whatever the hell comes next, but man do I hope NanoSD isn't next or I'll never be able to find my goddamn cards). And for goodness sakes, STOP vendors from loading the damn phones with all this bloat!
Compared to what Apple's done with the iPhone OS it feels like Windows Mobile is standing still, like Microsoft has dropped the ball and just stood there slack jawed as it rolled away. Maybe it's because they're so focused on kicking Sony in the nuts in the console wars, I dunno. All I can tell you is that what iPhone's software is today, WinMo's should have been a long time ago. The only reason it's survived this long is because guys like the geniuses on this forum have made it do things it was clearly never built to do in the first place.
With any luck I'll be trading in my iPhone for a WinMo 7 device, but I guess that remains to be seen. To everyone who's done anything for this community, I want to say thanks, because you made my enjoyment of my Wizard a true joy for almost 3 years.
Thanks,
Jason

I have mostly always used WM devices but in the mix of my many phones I have used both iPhones and I too agree that the interface is much simpler, easier to use, and direct, I also agree that certain apps specifically the games on the iPhone are uncomparable to the WM devices. Lastly, also think that the ease of app searching in the iPhone is the best, just browsing through the many apps is a joy.
With that said, using the iPhone is (to me) frustrating because most if not all apps crash, the web surfing is a pain because I remeber surfing and safari would constantly close. I traded my iPhone for the fuze and updates have done little to improve these problems, my wife still has the iphone 3g and I always have the same problems on her phone. In addition, I exchange my iphones multiple times because of these problem and they kept on happening. The only truly thing I miss from the iphone are the games and sometimes the appstore. The lack of multitasking is also horrible even by using the background tasking app when jailbreaking doesn't solve this dilema.

It really depends on what you need.
I honestly couldn't care less about the whole openness debate.
At least personally, I can jailbreak and get whatever (ok, maybe not) I want on an iphone.
The ui is much more responsive, and the screen is much larger.
BUT! I need physical keys, and that pretty much was the sole reason to not consider anything else.
Yesterday, while on the train, I was reading some stuff on Opera, while listening to music on Kimona, and typing away on Word, while swtiching between apps using Task Facade. Can I do this on the iPhone? Not as far as I know.
And about the larger screen, if I need to be typing frequently, the larger screen really doesn't benefit me since half of it will be filled with a virtual keyboard; what matters is a high res display. After comparing the two side by side, my choice was pretty clear.
Then there's another thing about the whole "responsiveness" debate. Honestly, at least with custom ROM's (which is really a bad excuse, since no one should have to do this to get past the minimum responsiveness), and running one app at a time, it's very snappy.
My point is, I find it inaccurate to state that the Fuze is a gateway to an iPhone without considering the target group and general purpose of winmo devices. Granted, more winmo phones want to hit the mainstream market, but let's face it, Fuze isn't targeted to hit any of the consumers out there. At&t did absolutely nothing to market it, and that really should be enough to invalidate the statement you provided. After all this is a forum where more technically inclined people hang around.

Wow, that's a lot of words. I'm surprised my ADD didn't kick in while reading it.
If you think that the iPhone will free you from crashes, think again. Yes, the interface is slick, but it is not the flawless stable system you see on the TV adds. I had the IPhone for a month before and returned it for the Fuze mainly because I got tired of Safari as well as any other memory intensive app constantly crashing.
The phone just doesn't have enough memory to be as good as it can be. My wife still has her iPhone which I recently upgraded to firmware version 2.2. This weekend, out of the blue, I asked her how it was performing. She replied "I just has to reboot the phone a minute ago."
I figure, if I have to deal with software lagginess and crashes, I might as well have a system that is accessible and customizable instead of one that is locked down. Oh, and the few extra buttons on the Fuze certainly do make a difference. But really, I find the Fuze with a new ROM MUCH MUCH more stable than the iPhone ever was.

Nice post, well thought out and honest. I, too, have a Fuze and am considering an Iphone. The bigger screen is a major factor; the Fuze screen is just so .. small! high-res is great, but pointless when you need to zoom in so close on things to read them that you might as well be running QVGA.
It seems I have a love/hate relationship with the Fuze, as many do here. One day, it drives me nuts -- Opera freezes up, scrolls and zooms in and out and behaves weird, the phone acts slow, bad GPS fix, and so on. I get frustrated and seriously consider returning it. Then, the next day it works like a dream! Quick GPS fix, opera works perfect, I discover something I did not know about before (i.e., circling your finger on a portion of a photo to zoom in right there -- cool!) and I would be sad to see it go.
I guess all we can do is be patient. As you said, other phones got better with age; I think it stands to reason that the same thing will happen with the Fuze. As better optimized web browsers get released (i.e., Fennec) and (hopefully) video drivers get updated, the whole experience should get better. If by some miracle we get WM7, who knows what that might bring. yeah, the hardware is frustrating -- small screen, weird buttons, no headphone jack -- but I think it is enough to deal with for now if we can get the software and drivers all optimized.

Thanks for all the great replies, guys. So far I have had the iPhone for just a shade over 48 hours, and I've updated to 2.2. I've experience no crashes yet, but I did need to reboot once after installing an app last night (weird, yet no biggie to me because I'm used to it in the Windows world).
I have to agree--I HATE that I can't run more than one app at a time on the iPhone. I don't know why they do that, but I can only presume that it's done that way in order to force memory to stay free so the OS remains quick and responsive. It's kind of a ****ty tradeoff IMHO, but at the same time...I'm liking the responsiveness and I *usually* don't do more than one thing at a time anyway. It's nice to have the option though.
By all means, I don't think Fuze is a waste at all (except in AT&T's horrible software load. What the hell are they thinking? Honestly they need to fire whoever builds their ROM's and hire somebody who does this as a hobby on XDA), and I think that when it matures it'll be damn difficult to beat. I fully expect WinMo7 to eventually arrive on it (barring some bizarre hardware requirements, but who knows?), but even if it doesn't I think the ROM devs around here will eventually harness this thing into a terrific device. Unfortunately I just don't feel like waiting around, because for my almost $400 out the door I feel I should have walked out of the AT&T store with a phone that blew the doors off most others without any need for a hack.
On the bright side, by the time the ROM's are really mature and crazy fast/stable, the Fuze will probably have dropped in price substantially
For those developing ROM's, some of my thoughts on UI are:
1. Larger buttons! Especially for closing apps and using drop downs, those tiny little default X's are miserable for finger access. Finger friendly is the way of the future.
2. Customize Touchflo. I've seen some slick youtube videos with guys doing very iPhone/Coverflowish stuff and it appears buttery smooth. Of course, I could never find where to get the software to try it out, but if it's doable, heck...do it
3. I dunno if this is possible, but how about setting up some sort of repository for free apps and building a thin client that could run in touchflo, connect to the server, and snag a list of apps available and maybe even install those directly to the phone. I don't see any reason not to steal the App Store's idea, it works well and it's a joy to use. Microsoft should have done this already
Just some thoughts!

I can relate to OP. I'm upgrading form a Wizard as well (T-Mo US MDA). While new ROM's certainly made my Wizard better, I can say that custom ROM's on it were not an absolute requirement. While I continued to be more amazed by my Wizard, I just continue to be a little less pissed off at my Fuse.
XDA is the ONLY reason I have not returned my Fuze. I'm finally back to a totally stripped ROM, with no fancy I wish I bought an IPhone TouchFlo Horse ****, and no AT&T application Douchebaggery.
OP, I feel you on the lack of buttons. I miss playing pocket Nester / GB on my Wizard. I think it says alot when it is totally outclassed and still sticks around as my "GameBoy".
I definitely have mixed feelings about the Fuze. I waited to buy this over the Tilt for the camera, and I have been somewhat impressed by it. I miss the Wizard's Keyboard layout and overall style, with the buttons NOT touching each other.

@Fatheadpi,
I can't agree more (though I am rather enamored with the iPhone's UI. It's not the animation and all that crap though, it's the sheer *speed* of it and ease of getting to anything I want to get to).
Fuze is an impressive piece of hardware, yet at the same time there are issues with it--primarily software--that are really hard to overlook on such an expensive device.

The iPhone has been around for quiet a while now, and has had 2 revisions. The Fuze is fresh out of the box, so making a comparison so early in it's release is a little judgemental. it is possible that alot of out problems can be solved by a nice ROM update (like video drivers). Or just out right fixed by custom ROMs here. if you think that apple listens to what the people want, just take a look at the cut/paste, or Video recording issues.
One of the "great" things about the iPhone is one of it's biggest weakness too. The app store, while its a one stop shopping for apps, is also controled by apple, and they are the final say on what kind of programs you are allowed to run on your device. You also can write new ones (think Schaps Advance config) you have to take what they want you to have and like it. If you try to break their rules, then you might find yourself owning a brick when you sync it.

I think you need to look at this in a little bit of a different light here.
Apple has for the most part stated that they are a software company; almost all of their efforts these days are portals to Itunes where Apple makes money hence the reason for lacking hardware but great UIs and access to Itunes. They make loads more money on Itunes than on hardware.
Looking at this from AT&T's viewpoint they make money on data plans, minutes, texting, basically anything crossing their network so these types of things work great on the phone.
A third party to all of this is HTC which has to make something attractive but gets no additional money at all after you buy the hardware.
So looking at it this way, it makes perfect sense why a pleasurable experience on a Winmo device is driven by the end user, in essence no one else is interested in your problem because they don't make money off of you.
So maybe some entrepreneur out there should figure out a nifty UI like iTunes but for Winmo where a user can buy a new ROM, or try out/buy some cool apps and so forth, figuring out a cool way to upgrade the device.
The real truth here is that Apple owns everything about the iPhone, there is no one entity that owns Winmo devices so individuals end up taking over and this creates multiple and sometimes confusing paths to good stuff.
-Tim

jasongw said:
(except in AT&T's horrible software load. What the hell are they thinking? Honestly they need to fire whoever builds their ROM's and hire somebody who does this as a hobby on XDA)
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If they don't do that, we may have to pay more for the device. So I really don't mind all the bloatware (you get what you pay for )
3. I dunno if this is possible, but how about setting up some sort of repository for free apps and building a thin client that could run in touchflo, connect to the server, and snag a list of apps available and maybe even install those directly to the phone. I don't see any reason not to steal the App Store's idea, it works well and it's a joy to use. Microsoft should have done this already
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http://getgecko.org/
I think these guys are trying to do just that. The problem is, ironically, but obviously, the openness.
Then there's this. It's from handango. Never tried it, probably not even close to what apple has. It's not the lack of it, but the way it's presented, which is precisely why--and you nailed this point--iphones sell. Of course, as I mentioned previously, most winmo users are at least prosumers, so they know what to do without all the oversimplifications.

Jblakk--
I get what you're saying about comparing the two, but I have to disagree. The Fuze is brand new, but essentially Fuze is to, say, an HTC Wizard as iPhone 3G is to iPhone. That's to say, it's not new, it's merely a refinement of what's come before.
And Fuze gets a lot right, I know, just as iPhone gets a lot wrong. Yes, it's judgmental to point out the strengths and weaknesses of the fuze, but I don't see anything wrong with that. Judging is a natural and appropriate action for humans, and I'd argue we should judge more, not less (but in a rational way, not an emotional "I'll kill you for disagreeing" way). That's philosophy though, and I'm just talking phone/PDA's
I realize that Apple has final say on the app store, but from what I can see it appears that they aren't being too tyrannical about the content. There are literally thousands of apps available, and so far I've filled up 5 screens worth of apps I wanted to try out. It was easy to find them, easy to install them, and for the ones I didn't quite like, it was easy to kick them to the curb.
I have to say you're dead on about cut/paste and video recording. I can't even imagine how they left those out, especially cut and paste. I mean does it get any more basic than cut and paste? . Hopefully that will be resolved soon, I can't imagine it's all that complicated.
My point here has never been to say that the Fuze is super terrible and iPhone is the uber shizz; clearly both phones have their strengths, and both have their weaknesses. Right now, based on my experience with both and coming off the still-my-overall-favorite-phone-to-date the HTC Wizard, I feel that where the iPhone leads is entirely in the execution of the software. Windows Mobile 6 is barely a step above 5 (in fact, it IS 5 if you get right to it, 5.2.xxxx) and it's really showing its age.
I think a reasonable argument could be made that the Fuze hardware deserves better than what Windows Mobile's current incarnations have to offer. However, as I mentioned, I do think the miracle workers at XDA will pull some sweet tricks out of their hats eventually and make the fuze pretty damn sweet. And if Microsoft follows its usual pattern, WM7 will finally catch up to iPhone's OS and probably refine and improve on it in various ways. It'll be exciting to see what happens on that front

@g2tl-- Gecko seems like a great idea, I really hope they make some good progress. I hadn't heard of that before, but I'll definitely be following their progress from here on out! Thanks for the heads up!
As for getting what you pay for, that's almost always true but I think there's an exception here. On the fuze you're getting more impressive hardware, but you're getting a much less polished piece of software that's quite outdated and difficult to manage by modern standards. Now, I'm a 13 year IT geek (good lord, did I just admit that?) so I've never been afraid of getting my hands dirty, and goodness knows it's a miracle my old 8125 survived all the flashing I did to it, but at a certain point it's nice for a device to just *work* without a lot of dicking around with it.
I am sure WinMo will eventually be that software, probably with WinMo7. It's just not there yet, and I think the real shame of that is that an awesome device like the Fuze (or any flavor of the touch pro for that matter) won't really be used to its full potential because the software is lagging so far behind the device itself.

Tim, I do get all that, and you're exactly right. I also think that's where a great many of the problems with WinMo come from, the fact that carriers can just shovel piles and piles of junk onto these phones just drags down the user experience.
I'd say maybe Microsoft needs to put out their own phone where they can present a coherent experience (their new Xbox Live interface is friggin' awesome), but then I'm sure we'd have a lot of crying foul from assorted carriers and competitors who cry monopoly. There's probably no easy solution from a development and implementation standpoint, but from a consumer standpoint it's actually fairly easy: go buy the device that offers what you need.
Right now for me--and surprisingly so because I never imagined buying one of these until 2 days ago--that device appears to be iPhone. I truly do hope for a WinMo7 device or even a Fuze WinMo7 hack that'll win me back eventually. I still love the dark side

jason - Suggestion for you, as this is finally what has made me very happy with my Fuse. Probably a little too late as you're running an I-Phone.
Think about this: You were a Wizard user. When you upgraded, you probably wanted a better camera, more power, and 16 gig storage options. You were probably running an OC'd cooked rom WITHOUT TouchFlo.
Here's my suggestion.
Starting from scratch, I have the phone I wanted after about an hour's work. TouchFlo 3D just continues to piss me off. The only nice things about it were the picture viewer, weather, and the music setup. However, I have music controls on my BT Headset, and I'll probably go find the HTC Music player / plugin tonite. I have HTC picture viewer installed in an out of the way place for the rare times I look at my pics. I'll figure something out for the weather option, tho I've lived without it for a number of years.
Thinking about it, it all kinda makes sense. PC users build PC's and use Windows because we know exactly what we want and how we want it. We don't put flashy, pointless bull**** interfaces up front to slow things down. (at least pre-Vista, anyways.)
Still tho, the Raphael and Diamond needed a different control pad and button set. Macs were built around the idea that an average idiot (no offense to MacFags) could just use something. PC's are designed with a bunch of buttons because PCFags will customize that to do awesome stuff.

jasongw said:
Jblakk--
I get what you're saying about comparing the two, but I have to disagree. The Fuze is brand new, but essentially Fuze is to, say, an HTC Wizard as iPhone 3G is to iPhone. That's to say, it's not new, it's merely a refinement of what's come before.
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I'll have to dissagree with you there, as the hardware is so different, it's a copletely different device. I came from the Hermes(8525) and it's not even close to the same(and I did love my heremes)
And Fuze gets a lot right, I know, just as iPhone gets a lot wrong. Yes, it's judgmental to point out the strengths and weaknesses of the fuze, but I don't see anything wrong with that. Judging is a natural and appropriate action for humans, and I'd argue we should judge more, not less (but in a rational way, not an emotional "I'll kill you for disagreeing" way). That's philosophy though, and I'm just talking phone/PDA's
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I think what I said just came out wrong. I think over-critical would have been more accurate. I think that we look at things in perspective, and make decisions based on our needs. While I know that neither device is perfect(what one is?) we just need for figure out what job does the job best for us, and makes us happy.
I realize that Apple has final say on the app store, but from what I can see it appears that they aren't being too tyrannical about the content. There are literally thousands of apps available, and so far I've filled up 5 screens worth of apps I wanted to try out. It was easy to find them, easy to install them, and for the ones I didn't quite like, it was easy to kick them to the curb.
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Don't forget that not all of thoes apps are free, and you don't get demos of stuff try make sure they work as advertised. I have friends that nickle and dime themselves too death due to the app store. I don't think the idea is bad idea by any means though.
I have to say you're dead on about cut/paste and video recording. I can't even imagine how they left those out, especially cut and paste. I mean does it get any more basic than cut and paste? . Hopefully that will be resolved soon, I can't imagine it's all that complicated.
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iPhone users have been asking for thoes 2 functions for well over a year, and they all say...Its comming soon...for a year now. I'm guessing that Mr. Jobs doesnt want you to have it for some reason.
My point here has never been to say that the Fuze is super terrible and iPhone is the uber shizz; clearly both phones have their strengths, and both have their weaknesses. Right now, based on my experience with both and coming off the still-my-overall-favorite-phone-to-date the HTC Wizard, I feel that where the iPhone leads is entirely in the execution of the software. Windows Mobile 6 is barely a step above 5 (in fact, it IS 5 if you get right to it, 5.2.xxxx) and it's really showing its age.
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I won't dissagree with you on that. 6.1 was a bigger improvement that 5 to 6 was. Hopping that 6.5 will get the boost it very much needs. And don't ever forget that Touchflo 3D was HTCs way of hiding the windows interface, due to its seriously unfrendlyness. But also remember that iPhone was geared towards the casual Multi-media use, and the Fuze is aimed towards the average power user.
I think a reasonable argument could be made that the Fuze hardware deserves better than what Windows Mobile's current incarnations have to offer. However, as I mentioned, I do think the miracle workers at XDA will pull some sweet tricks out of their hats eventually and make the fuze pretty damn sweet. And if Microsoft follows its usual pattern, WM7 will finally catch up to iPhone's OS and probably refine and improve on it in various ways. It'll be exciting to see what happens on that front
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I will agree with that. But just like the arguement over PC vs mac, it's not a fair comparison. It needs to be Dell XPS vs Mac, or Toshiba Satalite vs Mac. There is no such thing as a PC (technicaly a Mac is a PC too...Personal Computer). And Apple has the unfair advantage of only writing software for papriatary hardware, where Microsoft has to write software for millions of combinations of hardware, and in the end it's all about drivers.
In the end, see what serves your needs best, but I do not think that the Fuze will drive anyone to be iPhone users. With the Fuzes lack of advertising, and the Apple's Mind numbing advetising, I think that people that look at the fuze as an option already have the mindset that the iPhone just will not do what they need.

In advance let me say thanks to everyone for having such a civil discussion. I am thoroughly impressed and appreciative. I was *sure* somebody would have come in with the raving and yelling attitude by now and I've happily been proven wrong. I REALLY appreciate that; flame wars got old and boring a loooong time ago IMHO
@Fatheadpi,
Thank you for the suggestion. At some point in the future I hope to get another fuze or perhaps its successor. Of course, by then I hope for WM7 and an actual answer to the ease of use features in iPhone (I'm still a PC guy at heart, I'd love to see Apple get ***** slapped at their own game). Suffice to say, unless AT&T cleans up its act (which I doubt, they never did do right by Wizard users and it was only XDA cookers who made that device be all that it could be) I am sure that the Fuze will continue to be a "Cooked ROMs only" device.
@JBlakk,
Wow, what a nice response . I won't go point by point, but I think you've made a lot of good points, and I agree with many. Hell, I still build my own PC's (I've only recently started using Vista though, and I mostly hate it so I turn off almost all the fancy crap).
Also I think you definitely have a point about the marketing aspect and who the fuze is (or at least ought to be) targeted toward. I'd make the argument though that if AT&T is targeting the "power user" they still missed the mark with the software by loading it will all that ridiculous bloat.
I like the appearance of TouchFlo3D, but man the performance is just sad, especially on such a high end piece of phone hardware. My biggest gripe is absolutely in the software execution, but I am, to reiterate again, quite confident that as the ROM's mature and the cookers get their heads around the nuances of the phone itself, we'll see some amazing performance from Fuze.
Thanks again guys! It's been loads of fun
Jason

I'll be civil...
I understand what you are saying, if you just want something that works 99.9% of the time the iPhone is the perfect phone for you. I however like to play with things and no how much I deny it I like finding problems and fixing them, and Microsoft's products are perfect for that. Also the open source-ness of M$ is another thing that draws me to their products.
I was worried, being an open Apple hater(I have nightmares about getting iPhones for Christmas...), that AT&T would not carry another phone with a touch screen after they signed the deal with Apple. The Touch Pro is/will be perfect for me in that sense. Apple is flashy and pretty, but extremely constrained in the sense that Apple likes to keep it's followers in a choke hold, but that's my opinion too.
I also like the keyboard of the Fuze/Touch Pro/Raphael(Why do they need so many names for the same device?!)
So in short I'm not going to flame you because you chose an Apple product over a M$ one, I honestly don't care as it's your money and your decision. I think the latest Touch Pro's are better than the first release models though...but that could be just speculation.
((Also the lack of cut/copy/paste is an EXTREME drawback for me))

I also went to the darkside (iPhone) after returning my fuze. I have said it in previous posts and to my co-workers that have both iPhones and WinMo devices - it. just. works.
Being an engineer/sys admin by trade I love to tinker and tweak and rip apart and put back together stuff, but in this case the effort it took to get the Fuze/TP to a usable state [for me] wasn't worth it. I am at the stage of my life where I don't have the time to play (7 mo. old will do that to ya).
I wouldn't kick a free or deeply discounted Fuze/TP out of bed, lol, but as many have said, it's what you want out of a device and I needed my device to work out of the box.
That said, so far so good. About 2 trouble-free weeks with the iP3G.
I still come here daily to keep up on the HTC WinMo happenings to satiate my tinker desire. But the iPhone is here to stay - or until WinMo 7 drops at least.

I'm getting tired and disappointed of WM

Ok, where to start? Well from the beginning of my short smartphone experience. My first phone was a Motorola A1000 with UIQ. The phone where not as good from the beginning but after some turns with the ROM cookers it became a pretty descent phone. It had GPS, a great app for mp3 (PowerMP3) and for that time an Opera webbrowser that worked on the most common sites.
Ofcourse the webbrowsing was slow and the GPS took ages to get a fix and the sound from PowerMP3 started to glitch when I had it in the background and did other stuff. But hey, I accepted it because it started to get old.
So, anyway. When the Xperia was annonced I found it as a great replacement. It was a smaler phone, it had full qwety, highres screen, wlan, gps, radio and finally 3.5mm jack. A friend had the first tytn phone (my first contact with XDA) that i thought was a bit slow. But still, it was an old phone and with the specs of the xperia I thought that WM would run smoth as butter.
Now, I have had the phone for 6 mounths and the honymone is over. Ofcourse the ROM cookers here have done an amazing job to speed it up. But still. Sometimes the phone is less responsive than my old UIQ phone. There is still no fully working webbrowser, the GPS does somtimes have problem to get a fix (not as long as 10 minutes though) and loading times eg. for showing pictures, open menues is the same as on my UIQ or worse.
I am getting tired of the chronic statment soon... the next version of Opera, when skyfire is ready, the next version of windows mobile, the next radio or ROM upgrade, the next version of manila etc.
And still, phones with weaker hardware is working smoth as silk with ROMs from the manufacturers like samsung, Apple or OS like Android. Why can't MS make an OS like that? It dosen't have to be "cool" as iPhone. But why not make it run smooth with less loadingtime?
As it is now, I can't lend my phone to a friend if he/she whan't to test it or browse a webpage without having them to wonder why nothing happens if they press this or that because of the loading times. "How could you pay that much for this phone?" And, no, I can't answer that anymore.
Ok, now I have let off some steam. And I havn't eaven mentioned the worthless casing on the phne that have cracked for the second time... ohh, now I have
Peace over and out

I wrote almost the same words today on a Dutch forum. I have my Xperia now for about 7 months. Out of the box it's a piece of sh.t. Thanks to the cooks it's an acceptable phone now, but my next phone will be no WM phone anymore. Thinking of buying the new Iphone when it comes out. Better/faster hardware doesn't say anything when WM is the OS.
Iphone here I come. If you can't beat them join them...

Although I do like my iPhone, I HATE apple. Going from my kaiser to the iPhone was a huge change. Mostly good, but putting up with apples bs is obnoxious. They are so restrictive. I miss the days of rom flashing, changing web browsers, media players, notes applications......just to try something new. With my iPhone, I can only change what apple approves, and that is very little. I am eagerly awaiting the Pre's release. Currently I pay AT&T 135.00 as month for two iPhones with the cheapest plan possible. We have the 1st gen iPhones with 20.00 a month data plans. I have no desire to pay 160.00 a month for the new iPhones when released. Two pre's with sprint will coat us 100.00 with my corporate discount.
I plan on checking out windows mobile again when wm7 is releases but not before then.
Jeff

take a break play with the iPhone and crapberry you'll be back within 4 months. Honestly, it took stupid applications like iBeer to make me want to go back to windows mobile. When I walk into work people with iPhones and BB's ask me why my Fuze or my Tilt looked more appealing than others they have seen. Simple answer, "I got no luck in the game of popularity therefore I spent over a year learning of the capabilities and the love what goes into windows mobile, outside of microsoft". Personally, I think they will never understand but when you show them easy written applications like "positions" and pdf reader "hustler" or "playboy" magazine, for some reason they believe you are a porn star, cause its that real...
edit: actually iPhones in Boston are played out so if you have a nice looking Tilt or Fuze it will get you ass. However, you may have to pay for an expensive hotel and some cheap ass beer too go along but that is how i roll. Nobody stops my floss.

Well, iPhone is no option for me. I like the modding that was possible with both my UIQ phone and WM. Android is what I now think will be the smoothest and more loadingtime free OS. I'm sad that it isn't possible to have android on my xperia. To me the xperia actually is the most good looking phone on the market today.

I could'nt say that my experience with winmo was bad. I had always enjoyed tweaking, ROM flashing, looking and exploring for new and better application software, trying out all kinds of different user interfaces, playing with registry, etc. I had always thought of winmo as the best thing since slice bread - until I tried out iPhone. To be honest, I had always brushed off iPhone as just a toy, as something that I would give up a week after owning it, etc. Had always been annoyed with people arguing that iPhone is better than winmo device.
Then, one day, an XDA-developer forumner whom I respected a lot made a post saying that he had already switched to iPhone and has never looked back. That was when I first took notice, and started to research more seriously about what iPhone could do. I thought all along that I would have to give up all the cherished applications on my Athena if I switch, so I first spent time finding out what applications are available on iPhone. At that time, I could not find any credible solution on GPS navigation and Office document editing. I also thought that I'm too addicted to my Tengo software keyboard to want to give up. In addition, I read a lot of posts saying there are serious 3G reception issues. So, based on that, I decided to buy a Touch HD instead.
I was estatic with Touch HD and made recommendation to a few person who too made the purchase. It was'nt perfect for sure. The response time was inconsistent at best, music playing stutters, album was slow and often causes freeze, camera capture taking too long to save and come back, picture is poor under poor lighting condition, etc. But I was still perfectly happy, perhaps because over the years, I had developed such a high tolerance for imperfection.
The iPhone purchase was probably an impulsive purchase because it was selling cheap. To be honest, the first day when I used it, I did'nt like it too much. Many things I did'nt know how to do. Did'nt like not being able to multitask, copy and paste, no video, no MMS, and the user interface looked set in concrete and unchangeable.
But then, I learned to jailbreak the phone. It was difficult in the begining because I did'nt know of a good forum to get help from, after all, I'm a winmo and XDA person, right? After that, I'm now really happy with iPhone.
- at the system level, my iPhone multitask, I can do global cut and copy, send MMS, do video recording, customise my springboard (desktop) to my heart's content, easily get music/movies without any restriction whatsoever .
-In general, my replacement application programs are far far better than the equivalent that I had on my HD.
- I can find lots of useful applications (don't listen to those who tell you that you only get iBeer and iFart from Applestore) from both the applestore and Cydia store. Many of those programs are simply not available on the winmo platform.
- VOIP calls that I make with my iPhone is far clearer than with my HD. No echo. No breaking up of voice. No need to use headset.
- All my videos play smoothly now. No more synchronization problem between video and voice. No more dropped frame.
- Camera captures really fast, including in poor light. It does'nt have autofocus and flash though, so this is still an area that iPhone should improve on. On the other hand, the camera softwares are excellent. You can change the contrast, exposure, and sharpen the picture after they're taken, and this compensate somewhat for the poor picture.
- I like the way it notifies me of any update to my applications, and they are all free. Even if I had previously installed and deleted an application, it tells me that I had already made the purchase (even the free ones are considered purchased) and would let me download it again free (even if now it is no longer free).
- Love the responsiveness. Even with very tiny area, such as the little link on XDA site that brings me to the first unread post, could be easily activated without zooming it.
- Consistent user interface is another really appealing aspect of it. On my HD, I had programs from Vito Technology, Resco, SPB, and they all look different. Some have full screen and have their own finger friendly keyboard, some still use stylus. Not a serious issue, but it was really good to have consistent UI.
What I still don't like about iPhone?
- I don't like the fact that I cannot change battery in the middle of the day. With my HD, I carry a spare battery because one isn't enough for me.
- We still have no credible GPS software on the iPhone, at least not outside US. In US, G-Map on iPhone looks like a pretty good GPS software that works without internet connection, but outside US, there is'nt any that can operate without internet connection. Even if there is, I am not willing to use anything not as good as TomTom 7, which among other things give me overspeeding, red light and speed camera warnings. I still use my HD to run TomTom, Garmin and Mapking (because TomTom does not have maps in all the countries that I visit).
I had been keeping an eye on Palm Pre and Google Phone. Google phone could be manufactured by any hardware manufacturer so in that aspect it has a better chance of becoming popular amoung the hardware suppliers at least, unlike iPhone which nobody else are allowed to manufacture. However, the applications on both Google Phone and Palm Pre are too limited at the moment. Also, because of the absence of control and openness, I think the user interface on google phone is going to varry greatly from application to application, so you will not have the same consistency as iPhone application. Palm pre's inabiilty to operate as a world phone bugs me, in addition to the fact that it is still the first generation phone, which is bound to have much unresolved issues.
WM7 is of course not to be discounted completely. It is supposed to be revolutionary. Like using the camera to detect your hand gesture (wonder what it is like to operate the device in the dark and impact on battery though. Also wondering how would devices without front camera deal with it.). However, application development would have much to catch up. The biggest obstacle I think is the fact that MS tries to make the OS backward compatible. There are just too many different hardware out there by now. Pity the developers on winmo now. If they develop anything now, it would have to be redone when WM7 is available. I get the feeling that many are developing for iPhone for now, hence the explosion of software availability there.
I hope this thread is a place to share information, not to bash winmo in anyway. So, let's be courteous to each other and refrain from putting down winmo platform.

Paitor said:
Well, iPhone is no option for me. I like the modding that was possible with both my UIQ phone and WM. Android is what I now think will be the smoothest and more loadingtime free OS. I'm sad that it isn't possible to have android on my xperia. To me the xperia actually is the most good looking phone on the market today.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I can do lots of modding with iPhone too, and much of those modding are not available with WM. You can even make it look like a PC if you so incline. But you must jailbreak it first in order to do it.

redbandana said:
take a break play with the iPhone and crapberry you'll be back within 4 months. Honestly, it took stupid applications like iBeer to make me want to go back to windows mobile.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
For me, the more time I spend with iPhone, the more I grow to like it. It is amazing to find how customizable the phone is. It is also amazing to find that one single button in iPhone could so easily let you switch between active tasks, terminate program, launch most recently used programs, and with the power button do screen capture, do soft reset, etc.
Not all applications are entertainment in nature. You can get serious medical applications, enterprise resource planning type applications (including SAP and Quickbook), office productivity applications (Pocket Informant on iPhone is far more useable than the winmo version), etc.
The only really lacking area is GPS software, but that's likely to change with firmware 3.0 that removes the artificial restriction apple set.
Otherwise, WM applications are falling behind that for iPhone. There are many reasons why this is happening. Some winmo developers have discussed the reasons for this on this very interesting thread here:
http://www.4winmobile.com/forums/ed...s-mobile-apps-falling-behind-iphone-ones.html

jeffla said:
Although I do like my iPhone, I HATE apple. Going from my kaiser to the iPhone was a huge change. Mostly good, but putting up with apples bs is obnoxious. They are so restrictive. I miss the days of rom flashing, changing web browsers, media players, notes applications......just to try something new. With my iPhone, I can only change what apple approves, and that is very little. I am eagerly awaiting the Pre's release. Currently I pay AT&T 135.00 as month for two iPhones with the cheapest plan possible. We have the 1st gen iPhones with 20.00 a month data plans. I have no desire to pay 160.00 a month for the new iPhones when released. Two pre's with sprint will coat us 100.00 with my corporate discount.
I plan on checking out windows mobile again when wm7 is releases but not before then.
Jeff
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I too feel that Apple is going overboard in the type of restriction it places. That's why I jailbreak my phone, to free myself from all the restrictions.

This is an article related to the current thread that makes some interesting reading.
http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-18438_7-10151228-82.html

Great essay you did there Eaglesteve. I know some things about jailbreak and what comes with that because of a friend that have one. But to me, the hardware limits on iPhone is to big. The important things too me that iPhone lack is, qwerty, MicroSD-slot, changeable battery, radio (I'm lazy sometimes), photo led (great as flashlight) and a good GPS.

eaglesteve said:
I too feel that Apple is going overboard in the type of restriction it places. That's why I jailbreak my phone, to free myself from all the restrictions.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hey, if I jailbreak, can I drag and drop my music files? I hate having to sync my music files via itunes, or Media Monkey. I just want to drag a few songs over before work and just be done with it.

jeffla said:
Hey, if I jailbreak, can I drag and drop my music files? I hate having to sync my music files via itunes, or Media Monkey. I just want to drag a few songs over before work and just be done with it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes you can. You can also name the music file anyway you want rather than having it renamed by ITune. The music file could be copied to your own sub directory.

Paitor said:
Great essay you did there Eaglesteve. I know some things about jailbreak and what comes with that because of a friend that have one. But to me, the hardware limits on iPhone is to big. The important things too me that iPhone lack is, qwerty, MicroSD-slot, changeable battery, radio (I'm lazy sometimes), photo led (great as flashlight) and a good GPS.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks Paitor,
One factor that puts iPhone on the negative light is the fact that no hardware vendor other than apple through Foxconn is allowed to make the handset. This is both good and bad. Applications are easier to test and bugs more easily fixed. Also, having just one company controlling it nobody could pass the bug to another company if the graphic accelerator does'nt work (wink wink). You also don't have the risk of undersized hardware specification and slow device. On the other hand you don't get lots of choices in handware specifications such as those you've outlined.
Actually iPhone hardware contains the FM receiver all along, but disabled at the moment.
I believe Tom Tom will soon be available once OS 3.0 is released.

Anyone else not too impressed with ICS 4.0?

I was hoping to be blown away by the feature list, or even just a huge change from gingerbread in the form of an amazing new feature. But To me, it just seems like a revamp to the UI and a general polish. It sorta left me.. disappointed. Maybe I was just expecting too much, maybe its too deep in the mobile OS game for groundbreaking features to constantly be churned out. Who knows.. I just wasnt really feeling the excitement about NFC, don't see my self rubbing my phone with my buddies to get things done, or using it to make payments when I have a perfectly fine debit card i dont mind getting a few scratches on. Dont be fooled, I may have a iPhone 4s right now, but its only because I have an android tablet and I was under the assumption that Nexus would be amazing and ICS would be equally on par, and I was going to sell the 4s to gain a profit and buy the Nexus. But after the unveiling of both, I'm not sure anymore if its on par with iOS5 for the time being, which is growing on me. What are your thoughts?

inb4 anti-apple fanboys
yeah, it was a "meh" experience for me too, the virtual buttons is nothing new, they just took more or less honeycomb and put it on a phone

Well, I didn't expect much - they said early that it will be HC for phones. But I think we must look inside first. I hope the source code will be released. I wonder how the browser will change (will it be closer to Chrome).

Magnesus said:
Well, I didn't expect much - they said early that it will be HC for phones. But I think we must look inside first. I hope the source code will be released. I wonder how the browser will change (will it be closer to Chrome).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I believe the source code was already leaked. I thought ICS overall was the best part of the whole presentation. The phone itself 10/10 design wise, but the hardware isn't on par for me... not for the next 2 years anyway.

I was surprised a little that there was no sd card slot added, which is what everyone complained about since the beginning! I will need to get my grubby hands on ICS before I can completely judge it, but just a underwhelming tone I took away from the whole ordeal. On the other hand, I'm still excited about the Galaxy Note! As long as it doesn't cost an arm and a leg!

Looks like its a bigger update for phones than tablets really, I can't see much that the Motorola Xoom I had for a while couldn't do on 3.2, although like I said I guess a lot of the Honeycomb functionality will make its way in now to phones.

Krshaw18 said:
I was surprised a little that there was no sd card slot added, which is what everyone complained about since the beginning! I will need to get my grubby hands on ICS before I can completely judge it, but just a underwhelming tone I took away from the whole ordeal. On the other hand, I'm still excited about the Galaxy Note! As long as it doesn't cost an arm and a leg!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
This is my thoughts exactly. I see the note as a far superior device to the nexus. Once it gets ICS then it will blow the galaxy nexus away.

Magnesus said:
Well, I didn't expect much - they said early that it will be HC for phones. But I think we must look inside first. I hope the source code will be released. I wonder how the browser will change (will it be closer to Chrome).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm also curios about the browser. It seems it will support sync bookmarks from Chrome. That will be great if so. Still cannot find any video/post to introduce the browser in Android 4.0.

From what I've seen of it, it looks excellent. It doesn't look WP7 excellent. But it appears to have some Honeycomb touches.

I'm very impressed by ice cream, seems like a great improvement.
But it seems like most comments in this thread is about Galaxy Nexus, it didn't impress me very much except for the screen.

I am impressed!
- no more fragmentation, same app on phone and tablet
- HW accelerated ui
- integrated data usage control app
- browser engine is closer to webkit sources and have HC bookmark sync
- nice task manager, swipe and close app
- notification LED
- hi res contacts photo sync ?
I am worried about:
- no SD CARD in Nexus phone. i hope that the OS support the extention. EDIT: It has support - i've installed SDK
- on screen hw buttons, not my type
- no word about tethering, i hope is still present
- no word about open source it ?!?!?
- i hope face unlock does not increase even more the "wake up lag"
- no pen API - my next phone will be SG Note, i hope. EDIT: It has, as pointed by jeandujardin01

mdalacu said:
I am worried about:
- no SD CARD in Nexus phone. i hope that the OS support the extention.
- on screen hw buttons, not my type
- no word about tethering, i hope is still present
- no word about open source it ?!?!?
- i hope face unlock does not increase even more the "wake up lag"
- no pen API - my next phone will be SG Note, i hope.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
http://developer.android.com/sdk/android-4.0-highlights.html

I dont know what you guys were expecting.
I guess if your coming from WP7 or Android Tablet the UI changes and people app is ho hum. IOS and Android phone users should all be blown away.
Alot of the nagging annoyances are (seemingly) gone...more gestures in the UI , Full screen high res caller id , uniformity in copy/paste , Easier customization , Data management , screen cap etc....just a slew of things you no longer need 3rd party apps for.
For contacts and social aspects it blows away iOS and is a step up from WP7 ((from what I see)).
The hardware I wasnt crazy about. Only the HD screen +notification light was appealing.
Android OS was already ahead of everyone in terms of feature by a good margin. iOS caught up within arms reach with Siri + notifications. Android 4.0 seemingly does a good job of once again widening that gap.
If WP7 came on better hardware maybe id change my stance. But Android 4.0 is extremely impressive. Only question is the HW acceleration + garbage collection problem finally fixed or is it still lag/choppy filled.

Yeah but, you know, what about the beautiful Roboto font? Doesn't that make it worth the wait for ICS?
I think visual design elements in a GUI should speak for themselves. If you have to say too much about your new font then maybe you've failed. Why is everybody designing 'flat' two-dimensional looking graphics for their GUIs? How about building in more visual customisation out of the box? Want a glosy glassy 3-D look? Sure, just go to settings and customise it from the in-built choice of four or five that we put there for you. Oh wait, we didn't.
Still only a QWERTY keyboard? Still got to go into the 'number/symbol page' to enter basic characters? Can't users just have a wider range of choice for text entry withouth resorting to downloading keyboards from the Market or buying an HTC device?
Face Unlock? In my head that shortens quite nicely to a well known expletive, which is probably what we'll all be saying when it doesn't work first time when we need it too ; ) You know, like, if we're outside, facing south and it's before 11am or something.
Do some of the new features remind people a lot of what certain launchers are doing, not to mention Cyanogen and MIUI ROM features?
Joking aside, I too am kind of dissappointed as you can probably tell. I've been holding off buying a new phone for months now (still on my trusty HD2) and I think I'm going to have to wait a while longer. And don't even get me started on the lack of a microSD card slot in a device with a high res screen, onto which I'm going to load large movies/tv shows that will fill 32 gigs very quickly.
Windows Phone 7 is still a bust for me, and I won't even consider an iPhone until they stick at least 4" screen in it, so I may end up getting a 'proper' Android phone after all, but that's not really a very positive way to go about selecting a device. So many manufacturers release multiple handset designs a year, but how many of us select one based on the least compromises in the handset/OS, rather than 'extra' features it has over and above our basic needs?

mdalacu said:
I am impressed!
- no more fragmentation, same app on phone and tablet
- HW accelerated ui
- integrated data usage control app
- browser engine is closer to webkit sources and have HC bookmark sync
- nice task manager, swipe and close app
- notification LED
I am worried about:
- no SD CARD in Nexus phone. i hope that the OS support the extention.
- on screen hw buttons, not my type
- no word about tethering, i hope is still present
- no word about open source it ?!?!?
- i hope face unlock does not increase even more the "wake up lag"
- no pen API - my next phone will be SG Note, i hope.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
should be got sd card slot
based the link below
http://www.gsmarena.com/samsung_galaxy_nexus-4219.php

Eh, I must say, google is never the one to overhype their software updates and honestly they've yet to be impressive. Microsoft and apple hype their updates up because they can live up to the hype. The only people walking around anticipating the new ICS update is... Well... You guys. IOS and even wp7 hyped their updates because they delivered more than just a definitive Ui change.

snice the SDK has released is it better to start developing for ICS4 already?

Yeah, not impressed at all. What were they thinking with this presentation?
Don't remember who from Google said something like "you'll be amazed at how many new features we added in such a short time".
This made me think of several things we saw this past year like:
-better USB compatibility (HID?) they talked about at the Google I/O -> not a single accessorie
-same Os for tablets and Phones -> were are the tablets?
-HDMI out used to display something like a real desktop on an HD screen like Motorola and some others were trying to make -> a phone without HDMI port?
-unified Os, unified updates? -> nothing discussed
No need to say how much I was disappointed.
But, well, that's overall improvement, just that...

Impressed? We have not had a chance to use it yet?!
All i want from ICS is a HW accelerated UI. People will swear othewise, but Androids UI experience is NOT liquid smooth. It gets frustrating at times

I'm reserving my judgement till I get my hands on it. So far though, I can't say I'm either disappointed or blown away. My device works as I'd like it to for now. The progression goes something like this: keep on stock for as long as I'm able to hold out; unlock the damn bootloader and go crazy with ROMs; anticipate my new device; repeat the insanity. Right now, I'm only at the first step. Maybe I'd be disappointed if the news came while I was at the third.
Sent from my ST18i using xda premium

what can an android do?

I have just gotten an upgrade for my carrier and I am having trouble deciding if I would like to stay with an iPhone and get the iphone4s or go to an android and get the Samsung galaxy s2,I have never owned an android so I was wondering what can an android do compaired to iphone.

bigger screen and expandable storage, feels more like a computer than iphone does. They can both achieve the same goal but with different methods I think.

iOS shoves you into a shoebox.
Android shoves you into a moving box.
While both boxes, at least android you can move your elbows around.
Through rooting you have a wide range of customizing your phone with competing ROMs. These roms most often allow you to have a more optimized experience. But choose your manufacturer carefully if ROMing is what you want to do. Some manufacturers make this process easier or harder, but generally you'll have a bunch of super nerds that are more than willing to help you out.
iOS has a claim to stability over android. But think of it as having a paint by numbers and apple hands you the colors one at a time and forces you to do it their way. Android has versatility.
Uncle Rico: "I…I said the twelve pack, not the twenty-four pack. You're just gonna have to mix and match." Napoleon: "Shut up, say it so that the whole world can hear."

IOS Devices -
Smoother (High end androids such as SGS2 are about as smooth)
More Games.
Easier to use
Siri? (4s only - There are similar android apps but i don't believe any are as good.)
Android -
Customization (You can basically change everything on stock android.)
Larger variety of apps (Keyboards such as Swype, Launchers, etc)
I Don't really see why people complain about android Crashes/FC. They rarely happen on Stock roms (Not enough to be annoying) and usually occur due to doing something that isn't meant to be done (Task managers, Bad ROMs), or a faulty app.
Also, Rooting is pretty useful. It basically allows you to do anything with your phone (Such as install ubuntu, Android roms, better Radios for better signals, uninstall system apps, etc)

Everything!! I'm on my way to root this very instant.

From my personal experience, Android is far superior than the iphone 4 (can't say much about 4s as i just upgraded from the iphone 4).
Yeah iphone 4 has more apps but the majority of them are useless and get boring FAST. Whereas, flashing roms like cyanogenmod is totally addicting and so much fun (shame my phone is stuck in alpha version for cyanogenmod). I havent seen much of a difference in the retina display because my phone's screen is larger, looks crisp and looks beautiful.
Best thing is if you dont want to root you can still install emulators for free regardless of rooting. I <3 pokemon on my android.
Choice is yours but i am never going back to iphone because my phone is more fun.
Cheers
Sent from my SGH-I727R using XDA App

Well I like iPhone. I am using Android now. I like the spirit of android that trust its' user.

I like android, because you can experiment a lot
Sent from my HTC Runnymede using xda premium

Apple makes something that just works. but if you don't like the way it works, too bad. Android devices work just as well, albeit differently, but it's nice to know that if there is anything in the UI that isn't to your liking, you can simply change it. in the early days of Android, the UI was sluggish and riddled with incompatibilities and crashes, which gave the iPhone a heightened sense of 'perfection.' this is a thing of the past. new, high-end Android devices are well-polished and just as snappy as any iPhone. ICS will further bridge the gap, especially in dual core devices.
one area Android cannot compete with Apple in, though, and I don't know if it will ever be able to: battery life.. and when you consider what the device is (above all else, it's a phone.. you probably need it to communicate, and therefore you probably want it to be powered on at all times), that's as important as any other feature. there's just no comparison. even if you spend 5 hours tweaking settings to minimize draw, your fancy shmancy Android device's battery will never last as long as an iPhone's. of course, again, we come back to the customization thing: with Android devices, you could just get a ludicrously overstuffed battery replacement and probably come near iPhone uptime, something you cannot do with Apple devices.
my honest opinion? (keep in mind I have owned 6 android devices since the Dream first came out.. I'm not an Apple fanboy at all - I'm not a fanboy of any fancy telephone. it's a phone, not my life) I would own an iPhone 4S over any current Android offering if I hadn't boycotted Apple years ago. they're not the type of business I willingly support... but give them respect when it's due: they make fantastic mobile devices.
for now, I'm more than happy with my MT4GS. I like the phys keyboard, which is superb, and I don't have to look like a halfwit when I'm sending e-mails on the go to the executive team. I like the hardware, which is identical to the Sensation's. I like the 3.7" screen coupled with HDPI resolution, which gives me plenty of viewing area on webpages and whatnot without crazy battery draw like you'll get from these gimmicky 5" HD screens. the camera is phenomenal for a phone. and even though it ships with the most disgusting form of Sense imaginable (T-mo's espresso), as I've said, it's easy to change things around to get the experience to my liking thanks to Android's ease of customization.
to all of the Android zealots who have posted here and will surely continue to post: get over it. the iPhone is the benchmark, that's the way it is, and in the foreseeable future, that's the way it will be. there's a reason for that, and it's not just because people who are Apple loyalists are idiots... ALL of apple's products are highly refined and very user friendly. if you're the kind of person who doesn't have the patience for technology, but wants to stay connected, you'd be dumb to go with anything but Apple. if you don't fit into that category; if you like to tinker, if you don't like feeling locked down by your mobile OS, buy an Android device and enjoy it... quit getting your panties in a bunch because the entire world doesn't see eye-to-eye with you concerning your choice in the realm of glorified telephones. if it works for you, that's all that matters, and who cares what your buddies with their iThings say? it's all just stuff in the end... stuff that will end up in a landfill just like the rest of the stuff you own.
just my $.02 (more like $.05, that was a novella)

I'd liken the iPhone to a safety bubble, where everything works well and doesn't overextend its boundaries. If you're someone who likes to tinker with everything, and wants more customizability, in terms of OS and phone choice, I'd go with Android.

This is how I recently described the difference between the iPhone and Android. I expected to get tutted at for saying it, but most people here agreed.
iPhones are for people who want to look like they know tech.
Android is for people that actually do know tech (or at least want to learn).

Nerds = android
IPhone = everyone else
If you wanna mod and my your phone and completely make it your own get an android.
The iPhone is great straight out of the box but is really locked down.
You basically need to tweak an Android phone to make it have decent battery life or get an extra battery.
Perks of android is options and oh btw ICS is amazing, it runs flawless on my phone, though I had to tweak it.
Sent from my Nexus S 4G using XDA App

basically everything a computer can

Android is like having a normal car, with all the proper features. iOS is like having that car with only 1 pedal, 1 gear, and just the fuel gauge on the dashboard.

Skv012a said:
Android is like having a normal car, with all the proper features. iOS is like having that car with only 1 pedal, 1 gear, and just the fuel gauge on the dashboard.
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....and it's shiny....

sooyong94 said:
....and it's shiny....
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Ah yes, polished chrome for paint job that just blinds everyone else including yourself. Also, mirrors show what's in front of you rather than behind.

Most of the stated I agree with. I'd add that to me, iPhones are boring. What do you have when you turn on iPhone? Just a bunch of icons. Not very creative or different? Not even animated wallpaper. On Adndroid, half the fun is customizing the desktop. You can have live wallpaper, widgets, folders, icons... And yes, iPhone is probably a BIT smoother and more stable than most Android phones. But this is not the fault of Android phones, it is more a thing that you can't do half the things with an iPhone that you can do with Android. Apple limited their device and ofcourse it performs better because it doesn't do many things android does. Imagine only Live Wallpaper. How much more CPU power Android phones must use in order to display animated background.... then all the widgets. That constantly change/update.... while Apple devices only display rows of icons and no wonder they run slightly smoother. And in the end, as someone already stated, I will never buy an Apple product because I don't like the attitude of people using Apple. Those are mostly non-tech people that think they are so cool only because of something they OWN. IMHO it is way more cool to be ABLE to customize your device and understand how it works and tweak it than to be able to PURCHASE something. Just like they say in new Samsung commercial... one guy says "I could never have Samsung, I'm creative" and his friend replies "Dude, you're a barista" ;-) 99% of thos cool people are not businessman or even IT. They're waiters and shop assistents that need an ego boost....
P.S.
here it is for those that haven't seen it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=US&feature=player_embedded&v=6h5JSojJN3Y
Well, just my opinion, hope I didn't insult anyone.
regards,
D.

dalanik said:
Most of the stated I agree with. I'd add that to me, iPhones are boring. What do you have when you turn on iPhone? Just a bunch of icons. Not very creative or different? Not even animated wallpaper. On Adndroid, half the fun is customizing the desktop. You can have live wallpaper, widgets, folders, icons... And yes, iPhone is probably a BIT smoother and more stable than most Android phones. But this is not the fault of Android phones, it is more a thing that you can't do half the things with an iPhone that you can do with Android. Apple limited their device and ofcourse it performs better because it doesn't do many things android does. Imagine only Live Wallpaper. How much more CPU power Android phones must use in order to display animated background.... then all the widgets. That constantly change/update.... while Apple devices only display rows of icons and no wonder they run slightly smoother. And in the end, as someone already stated, I will never buy an Apple product because I don't like the attitude of people using Apple. Those are mostly non-tech people that think they are so cool only because of something they OWN. IMHO it is way more cool to be ABLE to customize your device and understand how it works and tweak it than to be able to PURCHASE something. Just like they say in new Samsung commercial... one guy says "I could never have Samsung, I'm creative" and his friend replies "Dude, you're a barista" ;-) 99% of thos cool people are not businessman or even IT. They're waiters and shop assistents that need an ego boost....
Well, just my opinion, hope I didn't insult anyone.
regards,
D.
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Also known as sheep.

Thing is, I have recently fled from the flock of sheep (I had an iphone 4, got it from a friend for free as I lost my Galaxy). I absolutely love the creative ability of android, I miss being in a moving truck instead of a shoebox. If you're deciding on which to get, it depends on what you want it to do;
Want something to just work? Get an iPhone.
Want the phone to be more flexible and allow you to customize almost every conceivably possible option? Get an android phone.

android can do what chuck norris cant

[Q] Nexus (pure Android) vs iOS simplicity

I know for a lot of average phone users, the argument is always, "Apple is so much easier to use!" It's understandable why people claim it's easier with Apple's focus on simplicity, unchanged UI, and locked down user environment on their OS. I've been using the latest jellybean and I'm trying to be as fair as possible giving my opinion for a non-techie/average phone user. I really think that Nexus (pure Android) is now as simplistic as iOS. Yes, there is a file system on android and other additional features, but average phone users mostly only explore home screens and other basic features. Jellybean UI only has the on-screen three navigation buttons with the three dot menu access either located at the top right of bottom right.
Apple only has the home button, but some times the back button is located in different areas of an app or to access shortcuts, you have to click the home button a certain amount of times which can not be very user friendly for people that just want to 'see' the button to access what they want. I've been using my parents' phones (HTC EVO 4G) and I agree gingerbread or other older android versions for that matter are hard to use for an average user. There's too many navigation buttons, phone's touch input is bad, plenty of needed improvements on an unsupported android version, and gingerbread is slow. I believe new comers can adapt very easily to Jellybean; everything is fast, fluid, attractive, and has become much more simplistic for setting up or accessing everyday features on the phone.
What do you guys think? Have you convinced family or friends to convert to the Nexus line of Android?

Ive been trying so hard to convert my gf from her icrap... Geez she had a droid bionic before i knew her but that had old gingerbread and skinned with blur(the worst ui for android) aosp or nexus is way to go
Sent from an Apple killing JellyBean

moparfreak426 said:
Ive been trying so hard to convert my gf from her icrap... Geez she had a droid bionic before i knew her but that had old gingerbread and skinned with blur(the worst ui for android) aosp or nexus is way to go
Sent from an Apple killing JellyBean
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Yeah. I need to sit down with some people who own iPhones and just show them side-by-side everyday tasks on Nexus (aosp). For example, telling them to show you how to attach a photo to a text message and then showing how to do it on Android. It's virtually the same and everything is much nicer on Android.

I'll say up front that I've owned Apple products and would consider doing so again.
iOS is a flaming heap of crap when it comes to the UI. It was what the user-base needed when smartphones where new, but we have so much more functionality now that it's ridiculous not to integrate it.
iOS is that person that still thinks it's the 1980s. Really garish and outdated, but not old enough to be classic and cool - or at least make people smile at how quaint it seems. It's everyone in Bruce Springsteen's Glory Days - those people that had an awesome time in high-school and now can't think of anything else.
I understand wanting to keep things the same for "non-tech" people who don't want to learn a new system every time they get a new phone. This is why they need to integrate small changes and improvements over time and teach people how to use them by explaining in a tutorial/greeting on the phone. I feel that Google does a very good job of that.
3/4 of my parents and step-parents have Android devices - and they have all picked it up pretty quickly.
My mom has a dumbphone on which she doesn't text and probably uses less than five minutes a month and still asks me how to attach files in an e-mail. I helped her pick out, buy, and set-up a TF700. She seems to be doing really well with it - a lot of people I've spoken with feel that an Android tablet is more "tech n00b" friendly than even a traditional computer - it's simple, everything is easy-to-find (and you usually don't need to go mucking around in the file-system), and you can reach out and touch what you want to do which is more natural for many than using the mouse.
She originally was thinking of an iPad, but it honestly wasn't the best choice for her. She needed a good camera (work-related) and the iPads that were in her price-range didn't have very great ones - and having a microSD card slot means that she doesn't have to worry about her video-recording taking up too much internal space even if she forgets to delete them when she's done. And she has the processing power and RAM that what she does isn't skipping and struggling when going back and forth through frames of HD video (something she specifically mentioned being worried about).
I think she would have been fine with an iPad, but she didn't have the budget for a newer one. Android offers options, customisation, and competition. Manufacturers are willing to take chances and try new things that might fail - whereas Apple plays it safe. I give credit to Apple for being the force to really push tablets into the mainstream - I just hope that iOS can get some much-needed innovation.
I believe my friend's "tech impaired" mom got an S3 and is doing fine. Touchwiz might be more bloated than Stock, but it does a pretty good job of being simple and teaching new users how to use it without overwhelming them. I think Samsung has done a great job with the S3 and their push behind it - offering something that appeals to many users and many different needs, allowing everyone to get what they want out of it. To me, that's what Android is all about - options, choices, and finding what's best for yourself.

Pennycake said:
I'll say up front that I've owned Apple products and would consider doing so again.
iOS is a flaming heap of crap when it comes to the UI. It was what the user-base needed when smartphones where new, but we have so much more functionality now that it's ridiculous not to integrate it.
iOS is that person that still thinks it's the 1980s. Really garish and outdated, but not old enough to be classic and cool - or at least make people smile at how quaint it seems. It's everyone in Bruce Springsteen's Glory Days - those people that had an awesome time in high-school and now can't think of anything else.
I understand wanting to keep things the same for "non-tech" people who don't want to learn a new system every time they get a new phone. This is why they need to integrate small changes and improvements over time and teach people how to use them by explaining in a tutorial/greeting on the phone. I feel that Google does a very good job of that.
3/4 of my parents and step-parents have Android devices - and they have all picked it up pretty quickly.
My mom has a dumbphone on which she doesn't text and probably uses less than five minutes a month and still asks me how to attach files in an e-mail. I helped her pick out, buy, and set-up a TF700. She seems to be doing really well with it - a lot of people I've spoken with feel that an Android tablet is more "tech n00b" friendly than even a traditional computer - it's simple, everything is easy-to-find (and you usually don't need to go mucking around in the file-system), and you can reach out and touch what you want to do which is more natural for many than using the mouse.
She originally was thinking of an iPad, but it honestly wasn't the best choice for her. She needed a good camera (work-related) and the iPads that were in her price-range didn't have very great ones - and having a microSD card slot means that she doesn't have to worry about her video-recording taking up too much internal space even if she forgets to delete them when she's done. And she has the processing power and RAM that what she does isn't skipping and struggling when going back and forth through frames of HD video (something she specifically mentioned being worried about).
I think she would have been fine with an iPad, but she didn't have the budget for a newer one. Android offers options, customisation, and competition. Manufacturers are willing to take chances and try new things that might fail - whereas Apple plays it safe. I give credit to Apple for being the force to really push tablets into the mainstream - I just hope that iOS can get some much-needed innovation.
I believe my friend's "tech impaired" mom got an S3 and is doing fine. Touchwiz might be more bloated than Stock, but it does a pretty good job of being simple and teaching new users how to use it without overwhelming them. I think Samsung has done a great job with the S3 and their push behind it - offering something that appeals to many users and many different needs, allowing everyone to get what they want out of it. To me, that's what Android is all about - options, choices, and finding what's best for yourself.
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This post is excellent. Apple does integrate small changes in the software every year, with the same minor upgraded phone that, "Changes it all." Problem is, is their platform is not moving fast enough and every software upgrade is poorly integrated leaving lag for multitasking and the notification bar to name a few. Apple definitely started the revolutionizing of smartphones and tablets into the mainstream, but I feel like they are no longer as innovative or exciting to hear about. Android has many phones across their platform with different themed phones that can deter users to go and choose an iPhone, but like you said it also gives the user many options and customization.
How come you didn't just buy your mom a phone for hd photo/video and rendering? Tablets are kind of awkward to hold for users who want to do that. I know that Apple has more apps optimized for their tablet, but on a budget, they're not the best buy. The best buy right now is the Nexus 7 or 10, but no sd card slot. You think she would need more than 16-32gb and additional cloud storage? Many "tech-impaired" people are still able to use old android phones quite well - more than I would want to. If they could just see what newer android phones offer, they're so much easier to use and it should no longer be said that, "Apple is so much easier to use than Android!" It's simply not true anymore - especially for the Nexus (pure Android) devices I'm talking about.
Google does do a great job of user-interactive tutorials first setting up the phone. I hate to be completely biased; I've had Apple devices in the past and am around them nearly everyday. They don't have that excitement or new features that have been on Android for awhile now. Not to mention how locked down their hardware and software is - slowing down development. I've also heard recently that Apple's new approach for their devices and software, is what they feel is the best for their interest and not the communities interest. That right there completely turns me off of ever owning one of their devices and I'll continue to support Google as they're my favorite company.
Another argument you'll always hear is, "Well Apple just has so many more apps and they work better." Well, they been around longer than Android and recently Android announced they have around 675000 apps now which is nearly identical to the Apple store. Pretty impressive considering how much longer Apple has been out. Also, saying they work better is entirely not true. There's been many tests on apps on both platforms and apps perform better on newer versions of Android. I just bought a Nexus 4 for $300 off-contract featuring a quad-core cpu, 2gb ram, true hd ips+ lcd screen, and the latest purest version of android. Does it get better than that?