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Why the Lag !

I been using the iphone today.....what a smooth operator...everything just flows...the page animations the opening of applications...the look and feel, the way touch works. The typing (mind you Cooteks Touch and icontact is on par with it )very impressive...it even takes batter pictures than the cruise and its only got a 2meg camera...using my cruise everything is laggy....I cant wait for the drivers or update. If people like larna and others can do wonders to the speed of applications then what the hell are original developers and manufacturers doing. I say thank you for this forum...If HTC/Microsoft had been thorough as Apple was with the iphone the cruise/WM would be a different beast altogether.
I think Microsoft must be going through what Mercedes and BMW went through when the first Lexus model came out and caught them sleeping.
Nice phone the iphone but very limited when compared to ours....but things could change.

I think much is about WM. And dont forget, Apple spend all their ressources to get their OS running on one Hardware. WM runs on hundreds of different Hardware.
Be sure, if the people at MS would optimze WM only for the Touch Cruise it would run much smoother.
I think a capacitive Display would help much. I'm often not sure if pressing a soft button worked. That makes working on it feeling laggy (beside slow program starts).
The WM developers have ignored any work on the UI for years. Now they got payback, the WM UI looks like an ugly Windows 95 UI and is totally outdated.
You can see that a smooth UI is possible by looking at pointui.
But do not forget the WM advantages.
All the availabe software, for example WMwifirouter.
That on iphone? I think it will never be...

Agreed....I can only fault Microsoft in Slow Deveopement....whereas the Manufacturers trying to make everyhing generic compatible instead of optimizing....now if they even aimed for the latter, no only would our devices be useably versatile, they would be decently fast and efficient.
We can only hope that WM7 will better developed for touch and hopefully not a memory hogger ...aka Vista.

On June 2008 the rumor say we will have a 3G Iphone + integrated GPS + open SDK. All for not more than $500 USD.
Nobody will touch the touch cruise with a stick at that point (unless the price will be reduced to $250, or something close). So I believe we're going to see new phones from HTC pretty soon.

This is s stupid discussion really The iPhone is a completely different concept than Win Mobile. The real question is: Why do you use Win Mobile? If it's for the coolness factor than iPhone is the much better alternative. If you want productivity than forget the iPhone It's that simple.

This is s stupid discussion really The iPhone is a completely different concept than Win Mobile. The real question is: Why do you use Win Mobile? If it's for the coolness factor than iPhone is the much better alternative. If you want productivity than forget the iPhone It's that simple.
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With the SDK, the iPhone could potentially have all the important software of the WM. What company wouldn't want to make their mobile software compatible with the iPhone (with millions of users worldwide).

Noam23 said:
With the SDK, the iPhone could potentially have all the important software of the WM. What company wouldn't want to make their mobile software compatible with the iPhone (with millions of users worldwide).
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I hate to say it but I think he's right.
I can and only will speak for myself, even though that may be the case for everyone else as well; but I use a WM based device because of the software. While the iPhone is faster, better looking, smoother flowing...as of right now it is locked down and requires hacks just to browse the file system!!
TheOnly1 said:
This is s stupid discussion really The iPhone is a completely different concept than Win Mobile. The real question is: Why do you use Win Mobile? If it's for the coolness factor than iPhone is the much better alternative. If you want productivity than forget the iPhone It's that simple.
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If you are reffering to the current iPhone, i would have to say you are DEAD on. However, if the new one lives up to what people are saying about it (an SDK, gps, 3g),
Then apple would have successfully created something that achieves both outcomes: A cool device with a fast, smooth flowing UI WITH functionality and productivity.
remoh said:
I think much is about WM. And dont forget, Apple spend all their ressources to get their OS running on one Hardware. WM runs on hundreds of different Hardware.
Be sure, if the people at MS would optimze WM only for the Touch Cruise it would run much smoother.
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Actually, it is up to the OEMs, not microsoft, to optimize windows mobile for each of their devices. This is where HTC fails time after time in my mind.
Microsoft gives them every opportunity to implement things accelerated graphics, among other things. HTC does not do it!!
And then has the audacity to blame the customers for buying devices based on their chipsets instead of what is actually implemented (or NOT implemented -- LOL).
Since my last HTC purchase of the Touch Cruise, which cost me almost $900 I am extremely upset and dissapointed, not to mention disillusioned. The kaiser and the TC could have been great, but HTC did not want them to be -- they are slow, clunky, unresponsive at times, and i don't see why HTC even put a camera on them 'cause the pictures and video are better left not being captured at all.
If the new iphone lives up to it's promises, i see no reason to ever purchase, nor use another htc product ever again. That is the thing though...Apple is one of those companies I just do not trust and/or like....but just having the possibility of a device like the new iphone will keep my interest peaked!
If everything goes as planned, I believe that mobile developers will definately take advantage of the SDK.
While it will take many months for all the developers out there to create good applications, it will happen.
I'll actually go as far as saying that iPhone software will in fact exceed that of WM software in the future -- Provided that apple releases a decent sdk and does not place absurd restrictions on developers.
Think about it...how long have WM devices been out for...and what is their popularity?
Compare that to how long the iPhone has been out for, and it's popularity...
While currently they are for two completely different concepts;
one for user friendly every day usage, and one a "business" device...
apple seems to be combining both concepts into something that I would consider a "dream" device that I have been waiting for from HTC to put out for years now.
I thought that the TC would in fact be something closely resembling my "dream" device -- And after I actually used it and saw all of the problems with it first hand, I quickly recognized I was completly wrong.
Let's see if Apple can successfully accomplish what HTC has consistently set out to -- and subsequently failed to do so many times.
If they can pull this off, I will definately consider myself a proud iphone owner / user.

i have to admit the only reason i did not buy an iphone its because i did not want to switch to at&t and evryone where i work has one. i just wanted something different so i bought the touch cruise. i am regreting it even as i type. 700plus usd down the drain. when the new iphone is out this summer i am definitely getting one and switching to at&t

i wish i could get my hands on one of the htc developers. i would beat the life out of him. for real. i am mad and pissed. even the clone iphone, the hiphone which i saw with my own two eyes and held in my hands is better than touch cruise. its only 200usd

There are a lot of Touch user using WM device not having too many complaint. I like UI and build of iPhone, but I never forget the experience what smart phone of Nokia and Sony Ericsson running in Symbian. People will just imagine what Apple will enhance the iPhone and offer what we have used in WM device. Just like people asking why manufacturer not offering VGA device. Why don't have a look of the delay of Sony Ericsson X1? Keep an eye on what Apple implement the SDK into their iPhone and software developer introduce program, and to compare what we have with WM device. Looking forward to have a device running in X OS with VGA display with weeks of power with plenty choice of softwares .... and lastly without lag. Just like years ago we are looking for a VGA WM device. Manufacturer like HTC will make such device if it can.

Are you guys serious about the Touch Cruise camera being poor? It has one of the best cameras I've ever seen on a mobile, save for the lack of flash.
-3 Megapixels
-Autofocus
-Excellent macro mode (try taking a picture of anything close up (~3inches) with this vs. a normal camera under normal lighting...TC holds its own, or better yet take a picture of something close up and compare those results to those of an IPhone)
-Auto switch to night mode in poor lighting (remember camcorders with night mode also exhibit lag in night mode, but normal cameras don't lag as they don't use a night mode since they have a flash!)

I must agree with Sonus on the camera. I actually printed out some pictures I took with my TC and they were pretty much OK on paper.

i do believe the tc is a very good device with advantages and disadvantages same as the iphone.
the thing that annoys me most (also while writing this text) the input lags in the touch keyboard or other apps, e.g. switching the t9 language is so crappy - once i click the triangle next to "20", it takes to 5 seconds open the dialogue it similar with other apps.
the good things are:
100% customization
tons of apps - navigation, wlm etc
lastly, i have see the iphone hanging - it could not connect immediately to wifi

I'm positive Apple is not going to put HTC out of business on June 2008, when the 3G iphone is supposedly coming out.
HTC will definitely release formidable competition on fall 2008, probably the dream machines we always wanted to have. My only complaint is that the Touch Cruise / Kaiser have the hardware to be much of that "dream machine", but aren't so because HTC doesn't think it is necessary since these products are competitive enough as it is, in today's market.

I agree with the only1.
Just think of it in business terms, the iphone and touch cruise are aimed at different markets. HTC could probably produce a iphone type device but why should it. HTC devices are more business orientated and sold as such, they are not (imho) trying to compete with consumer based ideas and what looks sexy when playing music or videos. They are aimed at different markets.
If people want a device to look good show off pictures and videos and play music they buy a iphone, for gods sake its a ipod touch that makes calls, so no comparison.
If people want to do all of the above and have a device that can be used as a great business tool buy a touch cruise.
Okay there are some faults but they will probably be fixed on the next device but that too will have its shortcomings and we will give out **** about it and compare it to the newest goddam wonderful iphone, jphone, kphone or whatever with hdtv or can make coffee but thats life. I know we paid big money for what we have but for jaysus sake its "not ****en dark". i.e. you could see what your were buying.
Just my opinion.
A bit strong maybe but thats life.

I dont know what you guys have done to your devices to make the camera so good, but unless i am taking pictures outside when it is sunny out, it will NOT come out clearly at all -- it is very distorted and grainy, not to mention it slows down to a crawl! I have a sony cybershot 2.1 MP camera from 2002 that takes better pictures than a TC cam -- and it cost about 150$ 6 years ago. When its dark or indoors, the LCD on the cybershot doesn't slow down to 1-5 FPS.
Now people say that the TC is a business device and that's true.
But, I for one am sick of trading off functionality for performance on the business devices produced from HTC.
Why can't it be both at the same time?
Unfortuneately, I did go in the dark on this one. Before I bought the TC I didn't research the video driver problems.
I only looked at the specs, researched the chipset and thought I was getting something that would (at least) out perform my PPC-6700 that I purchased over 3 years ago. I was wrong. I don't think HTC will go out of business...not at all, but i DO think that alot of people are in a similar boat that I am in...betrayed by HTC and will continue to hold a grudge against them, and subsequently switch to someone who can provide something better in the future...hopefully, that can be Apple...but I definately have some doubts to say the least, considering what the current iPhone came out as -- a Media player with a phone on it.

PseudoReal said:
switching the t9 language is so crappy - once i click the triangle next to "20", it takes to 5 seconds open the dialogue it similar with other apps.i
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OMG, i have the SAME problem...it is the WORST!!
you have to tap the stupid triangle like 50 times just to get it to switch.
It's an atrocity. Devices from 3 years ago do not even have this problem.
Business device or not, this is just plain unacceptable.
Unless there is a fix for this problem, or I am doing something wrong and do not know about it?
How many ppl have similar experience?

I have that same problem. Takes multiple clicks and major lag to get the input keyboard to show up. The reason I have to chance keyboards is I often use Opera 9.5 and for some reason none of the Touch keypads work with it, so I have to switch them (I think that's another problem could be related to Opera still being beta). Also every once in awhile I can't get to the PocketCM keyboard and instead get the lame Windows default one. But that also is another problem.
Back to the lag, every once in awhile I will get lag here or there, e.g. will click on the task manager on the top right and not get anything, keep clicking around with no response. Then all of a sudden all the clicks take effect and I will see the task manager menu open and close in succession real quick.
All in all it's a good device, great functionality, just a few quirks here or there. Maybe it's time to hard-reset or flash a new ROM that might solve some of these things, who knows.

Oh forgot, as for the camera lag with the low FPS in low light conditions, check out this thread:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=365345
HTH

thanks for that... the "trick" described in the first post does increase the response by 10 fps or so, but the thing is, the picture quality also goes down...its a lose/lose situation i guess lol...I also noticed that there is a new .dll fix on the HTC E-club, but only for the kaiser. I tried to login but it says theyre doing maintainance right now, so I can't check if there's anything released for the TC...even so I doubt there is
but my issue is, and always has been..why should i need to do all of these tricks and patches for a device that costs as much as the TC does? I shouldn't. No one should.
also another thing that came to my mind...people and HTC say this is a "business device"...so i was thinking, wouldn't business users want their devices to be MORE responsive than a media player / cool trendy "sexy" device?
I mean when you need to wait 5 seconds and tap the screen multiple times to play a music file, it's not really that big of a deal...it's an annoyance yes but it doesn't result in you losing work time..or a loss of productivity
but when you need to tap the X button 5 times to close out of a document and switch to your email...or taking notes and browsing web pages for work related stuff...or trying to switch between SIP's...and having to wait because the device lags worse than windows 95...it becomes a loss of productivity...
even if it's only seconds, those seconds add up, and the annoyances stock pile into one big ball of rage for me at least, heh.
I do admit that my own foolishness and quickness to buy a new device is partly to blame here. I should have looked into it more. But I also think that HTC holds a good part of the blame as well.
hopefully the geniuses here can come up with some good fast custom roms that will deal with these issues...i won't hold my breath waiting for this patch to come out from HTC at the end of the month. I'm doubtful that it will do anything at all.

Will You Switch To the iPhone 2.0?

As June 9th is just around the corner, I am just curious who will switch over to the new 3G iPhone? This maybe the wrong place to ask since everyone is a WM user including myself, very happy with my Trinity, but just really curious as to what it will take for you to switch to the new iPhone. I used the current iPhone for just over a month and I must say that Safari, the screen, and the user interface is unmatched atm. It did lack many things but with the SDK launching it could be a whole new world. Just curious what your thoughts are...and just incase you are curious my iPhone was a lemon (long story) so it just heated up and broke. Since I unlocked it myself the warranty was voided.

Depends on whether it'll be able to record calls. If it can, I may dump my current HTC Oxygen (one of the VERY few HTC models to support recording) and switch to the iPhone,

no
maybe if i can handwrite on it

Another no here.
WM is more versatile for me, that and I dont like the dumbed down approach that Apple takes on all of its devices.
Also with the X1 around the corner, I don't think I'll be making the switch any time soon.

No Way! WM rules!
But, let us know how it works out for u after a few months?

galaxys said:
No Way! WM rules!
But, let us know how it works out for u after a few months?
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It will need GPS for me to get it, and I don't want something that half the world may have...
It will probably be the Raphael or the X1 for me.

dumbed-down is a little unfair. The approach of the Iphone is to make things simple so that everyone can enjoy it. I'm used to Winmo and I'm used to Symbian but there is a definite draw to the Iphone's sleek, intuitive and WELL THOUGHT OUT system. What's WRONG with simple if all the functionality is there? Would you not take all the features of Winmo if they were put into a simpler package? Or is it better to have everything bogged down in menus?
Granted it's not there yet, but with external GPS support at least the Iphone could become serious competition - people aren't apeing its ideas for nothing.
The SDK release has seen a huge surge in development for the Iphone: it has to be seen to be believed.
I may get an Iphone; I probably won't but it crosses my mind occasionally. At the very least the introduction of the Iphone has made Windows Mobile users' experience a HELL OF A LOT BETTER as Opera 9.5 and Iphone-mimicing systems such as Touchflo prove.

I'm a proud WM owner here however I do own the first iPhone (don't use it much) and I propably will buy the iPhone 2.0 but I doubt I will use it as a primary phone. I'm a bit of a gadget freak and like to handle the devices myself rather then read about them but with all the things I can do with the WM devices I doubt I will switch to the iPhone.

I'm too dependent on 3rd party apps as references, so NO I won't switch at the moment.
...

Lol! Great poll! WinMo all the way for me!
I'll keep my device and continue to trump the iPhone users with my device, even if it is upgraded, I'll just upgrade more!

GPS was one of my "must have" for a phone and if the 2nd Gen iPhone has it, it will definitely be worth looking at. It took a very long time for WM to get GPS to be pretty much standard and if it only took Apple one year to put GPS on then they are really listening to the average consumers. IMHO I highly doubt there will be built in GPS or A2DP. Only time will tell.

I once thought that if iPhone has GPS, if it has ability to take in spare battery, if it has a slot for microSDHC, if it has 7.2Mb/s download speed, then I would definitely switch over. But then I think again, and said, no, I still won't.
The first reason is I have so many very attractive third party software that would only run on win mo platform and not iPhone platform.
The second reason is that some of the winmo phone are already having close to iPhone user interface anyway. HTC diamond, HTC Raphael, Sony Xperia X1, just to name a few.
The third reason is that I'm a person who get bored with the same phone very quickly, no matter how complete it is, how user friendly it is, and how slick it is. I just need to change the way it looks and feel every now and then without actually changing the phone itself. Winmo is the only platform that lets me do this. I change ROM, I change what gets shown on the today screen, I change the resolution (96 to 128, to 192), giving me a feeling that it is a completely new phone every now and then. I keep swaping in and out my weather program, my youtube player, my file explorer. I spend considerable of my freetime looking for better and newer third party applications, and this hobby is additive almost. If I switch to iPhone, I guess I'd be happy with it only for a few days, and then it'd be just boredom after that.
In some ways iPhone is ahead of the pack, but it is way way behind in many other respect and is playing a catch up game. Sorry, but this is true. It is understandable because it is still new in this field.

I wont upgrade to iphone as I dont like apples 'Locked Down' approach to everything... if they want more dominance then they need to open it up... not just by offering applications through itunes.

I'd need full synchronization with MS Offce, similar to what you get from Activesync before considering iphone.

No, not at all. Until Apple realise that "youtube" isn't important enough to warrant its own menu icon then their devices won't appeal to me! I like the versitality of Windows Mobile devices

eaglesteve said:
If I switch to iPhone, I guess I'd be happy with it only for a few days, and then it'd be just boredom after that.
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You hit it on the head right there, my friend. I get bored and change things up constantly...I don't know if I could handle being stuck with the same screens forever.

For my work (techy for large manufacturing corp.) I have both an iPhone (beta 2 firmware) and Treo 750 (wm6 to 6.1 depending on how I feel that day/week) and while the iPhone does some multimedia stuff better, but from a total end-user experience the Treo is a much better device. I however, have to believe that the next "true" incarnation of the iPhone (this 3g release not being it) will be much closer to the "desktop" experience. When they do "open" the device to end user customization (i.e. installing apps, fine tuning device behavior) in addition to adding basic functionality (e.g. cut and paste) and continued in-roads to exchange they will then have a product to compete against. I will give Apple the nod that they certainly raised the bar with this 1st attempt - look at all the threads here trying to duplicate the home page and all the advances in the touch ui that have since taken place. Granted this may have eventually come about, but the iPhone has to be given credit for "encouraging" more fervent development.
But since that is just a "hunch" right now, I will only hope my employer gives me the 3g upgrade just so I don't have to suffer through edge any longer. But really am looking forward to seeing the Diamond and/or Raphael in the states. What I have seen of the UI is just brilliant and looks to have raised the bar I earlier mentioned a couple of notches higher still.
Cheers!

sure, iPhone is an eye candy, but other than that. It is really a flashy toy to lug around. For functionality, I would stick with either Diamond or Sonyericsson X1.

ir the iphone had third party applications allowing a wider margin of customization, gps, tv.............. maybe id get it as a plaything or a pet for my Sprint Touch lol but not my main phone fo sho, it looks nice and flashy but thats the case, its designed for dumb pple that dont know much about modern functuality in a phone and lets themselves be seduced of the looks and flashy interface leading them to believe that its Gods phone lol, makes me laugh... anyway id admit that i might get it but not as my main phone

think i will be getting it will still use WM tho i'll have both i just liek the way the iphone looks and feels nice and sexy

PLEASE convince me to not get the iphone

I won't lie. It's been hard avoiding getting the iphone. The number one feature I want is an app store full of crap I can impulse buy. I want to be out somewhere, bored, and be able to buy a video game or something. The number two most important feature I want is a good browser.
I've been holding out for the Fuze because I've traditionally always bought WM phones. I'm anxously awaiting WM7 because it potentially has a bunch of features I will be really excited about (ie. I am a Zune Pass subscriber, so I look forward to a Zune MP on WM phones) but I the commercials for the iphone keep teasing me... taunting me... telling me I can waste tons of time on it... I keep thinking I could buy the Iphone for use for the year and by the time WM7 comes out, there'll be all kinds of brand new WM7 ready phones that I could switch to.
I'll be honest with you, besides possibly erasing bloatware, I don't plan on doing a lot of modding or anything like that so that isn't important to me.
I want some honest opinions. Should I stand firm on my resolution to get the Fuze or should I take a dip in the iphone waters?

Reasons not to get an iPhoney
(in no particular order)
1. No MMS(picture messaging) when they say you can just email it to someone...how do you send a picture to your friend with a Razor? You can't
2.no Copy and paste(really, how did they leave out something so basic!)
3. can not shoot video (unless you jailbreak it, then you risk getting it killswitched)
4. can't listen to audio through bluetooth, so you can't pair a bluetooth headset to it, nor can you stream it to your cool car stereo(think MS sync in fords)
That's the 4 big ones off the top of my head, go read the iPhone bashing thread for more details.

My top 3 reasons not to get an iPhone:
1.no multitasking (its like I went back to the Palm OS days)
2.no copy and paste (very annoying as I need this for my day to day work)
3.no physical keyboard (Just cant get used to using on-screen keyboards. I like tactile feel of keyboards too much.)
I can list other reasons as to why but these are the main hurdles Apple will have to get over before I would ever consider one.

jblakk said:
Reasons not to get an iPhoney
(in no particular order)
1. No MMS(picture messaging) when they say you can just email it to someone...how do you send a picture to your friend with a Razor? You can't
2.no Copy and paste(really, how did they leave out something so basic!)
3. can not shoot video (unless you jailbreak it, then you risk getting it killswitched)
4. can't listen to audio through bluetooth, so you can't pair a bluetooth headset to it, nor can you stream it to your cool car stereo(think MS sync in fords)
That's the 4 big ones off the top of my head, go read the iPhone bashing thread for more details.
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Thanks but I've never send an MMS anyway, never thought lack of copy and paste was a HUGE deal, not being able shoot video does really suck, and not being able to listen to audio through bluetooth sounds sucky but I've never done it before anyway. Again, what really sucks is that there's no WM app store. Seriously. It's bugging me so much. And as I said, I expect WM7 will have one... but still... that's a year away and I'm impatient...

i have personally owned the new 3g....hated it, let me begin:
battery life sucks:
Why own a 3G iPhone if you have to turn 3G off in order to get a full day out of the battery. And if I even begain to turn the back light up a little then there goes the battery as well. I had one day that I charged teh phone 3 times (full times) to get through the day
you have to pay for apps:
I know you do with a lot of phones, but damn its like if you have an app market there needs to be more free. And almost all of the free one sucks. 1.99 here, 2.99 there add sup QUICK
price of the plan:
they rape everyone with the "iPhone" plan...whatever. I dont even need to say more.
Voicemail get erased:
when you get the "iphone plan" it erases your voicemail and you need to start it all up again. even if you have saved voicemails in it, BYE BYE....and they will not tell you this either
cannot download:
you cannot download ANYTHING on it. I had someone send me a file that I wanted to download onto my phone and run on a school computer that did not have internet hooked up to it. all it was was a .doc file....nope cannot do that
camera:
SUCKS. still in the 1999 era of "slightly better that vga"
acessories are $$$:
all the no name brand stuff is out there is cheap, and breaks easily. but then again a good incase costs almost $50...and then a screen protector is $15 for 2.
cannot copy and paste:
need i say more?
I can go on...

Get a G1, Android Market is sick, has plenty of applications now and it will grow very quickly.

Biggest reason for me not getting a iPhone was the lack of tethering.
(linking the phone to a laptop via say bluetooth so that the computer can use the phones internet connection)
I am a IT support guy and sometimes need to be able to ssh into servers, and tethering a phone is the way I was doing it at the time.
I then bought a HTC Touch Pro, and now do not even need a laptop, as I have pocketputty on the TP, it's great for a quick reboot/restart backup etc.
I'd not want to have to spend too long on the TP though, but it's great for freeing me to not have to lug everything round all the time.

GazzaK said:
Biggest reason for me not getting a iPhone was the lack of tethering.
(linking the phone to a laptop via say bluetooth so that the computer can use the phones internet connection)
I am a IT support guy and sometimes need to be able to ssh into servers, and tethering a phone is the way I was doing it at the time.
I then bought a HTC Touch Pro, and now do not even need a laptop, as I have pocketputty on the TP, it's great for a quick reboot/restart backup etc.
I'd not want to have to spend too long on the TP though, but it's great for freeing me to not have to lug everything round all the time.
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Tethering is coming soon for the iPhone:
http://www.boygeniusreport.com/2008/11/06/confirmed-iphone-tethering-plan-making-its-way-to-att/

Black93300ZX said:
Tethering is coming soon for the iPhone:
http://www.boygeniusreport.com/2008/11/06/confirmed-iphone-tethering-plan-making-its-way-to-att/
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Great, but... thats the US, it'll probably take ages to filter down to us in the UK

GazzaK said:
Great, but... thats the US, it'll probably take ages to filter down to us in the UK
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So jailbreak it and do it for free. I don't like the iPhone very much, but there are ways around most of its lack of features. Jailbreaking can you get MMS, video recording, tethering...

copy and paste...so on and so forth we hear it all with iphone not up to WM...but iphone runs very smooth video, games, music...its basically an easy everyday use...if u looking for a more advance normal phone, iphone is the way to go...but WM phone like myself i used it for alot more than making calls, theres things WM wish it can do like iphone and like wise...its just how u use it everyday...i have the itouch and a kaiser...itouch basically fun to watch movies and play games and music...but i can do that with WM phone as well...its just iphone u can get to those thing alot faster with a bunch of shortcut than WM phone, yea i can create short cut on WM as well but with iphone/itouch its just seem more suited for entertainment...i connect my WM to everything though from laptop to cars and share file with basically every device but iphone...pros and cons to everything...theres a reason why every new phone that comes out claim they are the iphone killer...70 percent of people that owns WM phones dont even know how to use the damn thing...but the other 30 percent knows wsup. sounds like u already know whats each is capable of so you gonna have to make this decision on ur own

Lol, those that say iPhone is a lot faster should turn off multitasking in WM. I just don't want to hear them guys complain that they can't multitask any more as I don't hear them complain about the lack of multitasking in the iPhone.

Another thing. For those that want an app store, they should search for the Gecko Project on this forum.

Let me tell you why you should get an iPhone and why you shouldn't. If all you do is basic browsing and listen to music on your phone you should get an iPhone. The browsing experience is still, hands down, the best experience...when it works. I get lots of crashes because it doesn't handle flash at all and mishandles java. But it only happens when I'm viewing a memory intensive or java based web page.
I cannot handle the iPhone anymore and will replace it with the Fuze when it releases for one main reason. No multi-tasking and no turn-by-turn. Despite the problems with WM, which they have many, everything "works" when I want it to. I don't have to worry about Opera mini or skyfire crashing because it can't handle basic flash. If a website doesn't completely work on Mini it just doesn't load properly, it doesn't take you 5 minutes to load just to crash to desktop.
The turn-by-turn is an interesting one but let me explain why it's such a big deal. TomTom has had iPhone software ready for months but can't release it because Apple denies anything from entering the app store that is in "competition" with the base iPhone software. That's why Opera isn't developing mini for the iPhone anymore. Apple is so concentrated on blocking people that it breeds an air of exclusivity, which Apple uses as a marketing tool. While Windows isn't exactly a saint in this category at least the users have fully unlocked phones to be used for whatever you want. And Microsoft will never try to stop basic programs (like TomTom) from creating software for their devices.
What Apple has missed is that the more good software that is available, regardless of what it competes against, the more likely people will buy their product.
Additional problems with the iPhone include:
-no copy/paste
-VERY bad battery life, and I've used lots of 3g phones to compare
-No way to completely turn off ALL sounds for apps etc
-have to jailbreak to tether or do any program worth mentioning
-have to use iTunes. I freaking hate iTunes!
-no file browser (unless you jailbreak)
-have to jailbreak to even get access to your file system
-no flash support....period
Now, to be fair I will post what I like about the iPhone:
-music player is VASTLY superior
-sound quality is VASTLY superior
-basic browsing is smooth and truly better
-3.5" screen is very nice
-slim
-finding the software available is easy (see above for negative!)
-3.5mm headphone jack (some WM devices have, not most HTC)
All-in-all, if you are a basic phone user (which most people that spend time on the site aren't) the iPhone is phenomenal. If you like to do anything with your phone beyond what comes standard, avoid it like the plague. Even with jailbroken your options are still pretty much limited.
I suggest getting a windows mobile phone and use it until Android is ported. With Haret you can run to operating systems until you decide which you like better.

I was in the same boat for about the last month and was heavily thinking I'd be buying an iPhone in December when my upgrade is available. I even was playing with a friends and had myself convinced.
Luckily I came to my senses and have decided to get the Fuze when I can. Granted, the touch screen on the iphone is more sensitive...but I've tried using multiple good onscreen touch keyboards on the tilt and the second you get past a few words and want to type quickly you'll be wishing you had a keyboard.
Also, as another user mentioned the app store can add up and there is a reason most apps are free...because they aren't great. For every 1 good app there are a zillion useless novelty apps that are fun for a few minutes but nothing more.
I used to not fall for the sealed battery excuse until recently my 6 month old ipod nano proved to me exactly why I should care. I am not one of the people that carries multiple batteries and needs to switch during the day...but...my ipod nano when you take it off the charger is immediately down 2 pixel width's of battery so it's not even 100% after a full charge. Now what happens when that happens to your phone...you schedule a week of vacation so you can ship it off and not worry about work or actually using it

iPhone is a toy. I had it for 2 months, then gave it to my wife and went back to the tilt. iPhone is a fun device but it is not functional enough.

TaurenSnake said:
1.no multitasking (its like I went back to the Palm OS days)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
it does have multitasking. what it does not have is a task manager.
why TP and not iphone?
- QWERTY
- WM si more mature, more apps, more tweakable
- copy/paste
- more RAM
- higher res
- HSPDA
- BT is not limited to A2DP
- etc
However iphone has it's own pluses, such as: faster CPU, better GPU AFAIK, dynamic UI, etc

Take a look at the HTC Touch HD (youtube it). Now that is waaaaay better than the iPhone.
If you want a keyboard and a smaller phone (width & height) like me, can't beat the Touch Pro.

johndango said:
I won't lie. It's been hard avoiding getting the iphone. The number one feature I want is an app store full of crap I can impulse buy. I want to be out somewhere, bored, and be able to buy a video game or something. The number two most important feature I want is a good browser.
I've been holding out for the Fuze because I've traditionally always bought WM phones. I'm anxously awaiting WM7 because it potentially has a bunch of features I will be really excited about (ie. I am a Zune Pass subscriber, so I look forward to a Zune MP on WM phones) but I the commercials for the iphone keep teasing me... taunting me... telling me I can waste tons of time on it... I keep thinking I could buy the Iphone for use for the year and by the time WM7 comes out, there'll be all kinds of brand new WM7 ready phones that I could switch to.
I'll be honest with you, besides possibly erasing bloatware, I don't plan on doing a lot of modding or anything like that so that isn't important to me.
I want some honest opinions. Should I stand firm on my resolution to get the Fuze or should I take a dip in the iphone waters?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
For me personally, the top reason is that it's not on Sprint my preferred carrier.
And then no real GPS app. I can't live without TomTom on my TP, no way, especially now that i've been gifted a car. Been using TomTom on my PDA phones since version 5.
My biggest peeve is the chokehold Apple has on it in terms of 3rd party customization. To me it's stifling. An app only gets in only if they sanction it. So an app like WMWifirouter would never make it into the app store then.
They rejected an app called Podcaster that allowed you to download audio/video podcasts over the air, and the reason given was because it competed with and duplicated the podcast features of iTunes. But it's been now revealed that the real reason is because they are putting in over the air podcast downloads (albeit limited to 10MB or less) in the upcoming 2.2 firmware and do not want any competition.
Read here http://www.engadget.com/2008/11/06/apple-adds-ota-podcast-downloads-to-iphone-firmware-2-2-continu/ .
Just imagine if you couldn't run any other browser but Pocket I.E (no Opera Mobile/mini, Skyfire, Netfront), or any other media player but Windows media player (no pTunes/CorePlayer/Tcpmp), all because they duplicate an already existing functionality in Windows Mobile.
For me, those are too important to give up. Think about it.

If you don't mind the size, maybe you should get a Touch HD, because it has bigger screen, and therefore slightly better browsing experience.
iPhone's resolution is too low for decent browsing IMO.

Fuze--Gateway to an...iPhone?

Before I get started, please don't scream. I am just *waiting* for the douchebag assault to begin, because after all, this is an internet forum and it'll happen come hell or high water no matter what I say. This post is not for the douchebags, it's for the reasonable people who are willing to discuss, listen and talk in a rational way.
I got my first fuze the day before launch (November 10th), and out of the gate it was problematic. Now, I was and still am enamored by the feature set, and the hardware is amazing when it's working right. My first fuze locked up and crashed programs *constantly*. After a week and a half I exchanged it for another, and this was a better experience, but still flawed.
Fuze #2 never once locked up, but it did crash programs pretty frequently. Not every day and not every program and not even consistently, but it did so with enough frequency to be damn annoying. The AT&T software load, as everyone already knows, is complete ****. It makes a 528Mhz phone with 8 times the RAM of my old Wizard feel slower than the Wizard with a hacked ROM, and that's just sad. I've been using my Wizard (a cingular 8125) since launch, and I can honestly say that unlike most phones the experience only kept getting *better* as the hardware aged, and it was able to do so as a direct result of the fine folks of XDA who have cooked up some really amazing ROM's. The work you guys do is phenomenal and it only gets better as time goes on.
And so I loaded up a custom ROM from here on my Fuze. It was, to say the least, WORLDS better than the AT&T stock ROM. But it still had its annoyances. Some programs would still crash. There was still hesitation here and there when using the Manila 3D UI. Finding and acquiring software to run on it is a pain. Don't get me wrong--Windows Mobile has GOBS of great software available and I've blown hours upon hours finding it, playing with it, enjoying it, over the last 2 and a half years.
Of course, that's part of the problem--to get the really good stuff you have to search endlessly all over the web to find the really great stuff for WinMo. XDA is a terrific place because there is so much stuff discussed and linked to, but even here you have to trudge through miles of posts and it's a pain, plus there's the whole process of downloading, unarchiving, copying to the device, installing to the device--only to do it all over again when the next great ROM comes out. This isn't the fault of anyone here, but it's evidence of a problem that's grown beyond the community's ability to solve--the problem is with Windows Mobile itself and the infrastructure that does--or more accurately does NOT--support it.
Let me 'splain. When I finally had enough of my Fuze, I took it back to AT&T to find something else. I dicked with the Blackberry, I hated it. I've always hated blackberry, both from an infrastructure support side and from an interface side. So that was out. I've never been an Apple guy EVER. In college we had some piece of **** Mac's that were just miserable to use and I learned very well to hate them, so I hadn't even considered an iPhone.
And then I tried it. My first response, as an official Mac hater, was to find its flaws. The camera is mediocre (2mp? LAME!). But then, I have a REAL camera for taking any serious pictures (let's face it, no cell phone camera is going to replace a nice Canon or Nikon any time soon for high end photography). The screen resolution isn't as nice as the Fuze...yet it's still better than the Wizard was, and it's not so low that it ends the world. I hate that there are no hardware buttons except for Home, Power, Mute and the volume toggle, but then, the Fuze wasn't replete with buttons either and I'd already weaned myself off the Wizard's multiple buttons anyway. And it pisses me off that I can't use a friggin' MicroSD card to cheaply expand my storage.
But then I started to see what the device is really all about, and what really blew me away is how easy it is to use and to access a fat library of good apps, both paid and free. I don't even have to leave the device, I can browse it all straight from the phone, install it straight from the phone in a single step, and when I plug it into my PC it's all synced. When the next software update happens I just sync and everything I installed is put right back where I wanted it to be.
In short, I finally see why people are tripping over the iPhone. It's not the hardware, because let's face it the iPhone is outclassed in hardware by plenty of phones, including the Fuze. It's the interface, it's the software, it's the ease of use. And for me, at this point in my life where I'm trying to do more with my time than ever before, that makes it a great device choice for me. The iPhone, simply enough, will save me time and effort, and it enables me to do things I just can't do with Windows Mobile.
Now, my sincere hope is that WinMo 7 fixes these many issues. I hope it comes with an easy and fast UI. I hope the devices have multitouch screens. I hope there is finally an integrated backend infrastructure and an app store that nets easy access to both developers and consumers of applications and games. I hope it standardizes on a required minimum of built in storage but outdoes Apple by allowing you to expand it further with MicroSD (or whatever the hell comes next, but man do I hope NanoSD isn't next or I'll never be able to find my goddamn cards). And for goodness sakes, STOP vendors from loading the damn phones with all this bloat!
Compared to what Apple's done with the iPhone OS it feels like Windows Mobile is standing still, like Microsoft has dropped the ball and just stood there slack jawed as it rolled away. Maybe it's because they're so focused on kicking Sony in the nuts in the console wars, I dunno. All I can tell you is that what iPhone's software is today, WinMo's should have been a long time ago. The only reason it's survived this long is because guys like the geniuses on this forum have made it do things it was clearly never built to do in the first place.
With any luck I'll be trading in my iPhone for a WinMo 7 device, but I guess that remains to be seen. To everyone who's done anything for this community, I want to say thanks, because you made my enjoyment of my Wizard a true joy for almost 3 years.
Thanks,
Jason

I have mostly always used WM devices but in the mix of my many phones I have used both iPhones and I too agree that the interface is much simpler, easier to use, and direct, I also agree that certain apps specifically the games on the iPhone are uncomparable to the WM devices. Lastly, also think that the ease of app searching in the iPhone is the best, just browsing through the many apps is a joy.
With that said, using the iPhone is (to me) frustrating because most if not all apps crash, the web surfing is a pain because I remeber surfing and safari would constantly close. I traded my iPhone for the fuze and updates have done little to improve these problems, my wife still has the iphone 3g and I always have the same problems on her phone. In addition, I exchange my iphones multiple times because of these problem and they kept on happening. The only truly thing I miss from the iphone are the games and sometimes the appstore. The lack of multitasking is also horrible even by using the background tasking app when jailbreaking doesn't solve this dilema.

It really depends on what you need.
I honestly couldn't care less about the whole openness debate.
At least personally, I can jailbreak and get whatever (ok, maybe not) I want on an iphone.
The ui is much more responsive, and the screen is much larger.
BUT! I need physical keys, and that pretty much was the sole reason to not consider anything else.
Yesterday, while on the train, I was reading some stuff on Opera, while listening to music on Kimona, and typing away on Word, while swtiching between apps using Task Facade. Can I do this on the iPhone? Not as far as I know.
And about the larger screen, if I need to be typing frequently, the larger screen really doesn't benefit me since half of it will be filled with a virtual keyboard; what matters is a high res display. After comparing the two side by side, my choice was pretty clear.
Then there's another thing about the whole "responsiveness" debate. Honestly, at least with custom ROM's (which is really a bad excuse, since no one should have to do this to get past the minimum responsiveness), and running one app at a time, it's very snappy.
My point is, I find it inaccurate to state that the Fuze is a gateway to an iPhone without considering the target group and general purpose of winmo devices. Granted, more winmo phones want to hit the mainstream market, but let's face it, Fuze isn't targeted to hit any of the consumers out there. At&t did absolutely nothing to market it, and that really should be enough to invalidate the statement you provided. After all this is a forum where more technically inclined people hang around.

Wow, that's a lot of words. I'm surprised my ADD didn't kick in while reading it.
If you think that the iPhone will free you from crashes, think again. Yes, the interface is slick, but it is not the flawless stable system you see on the TV adds. I had the IPhone for a month before and returned it for the Fuze mainly because I got tired of Safari as well as any other memory intensive app constantly crashing.
The phone just doesn't have enough memory to be as good as it can be. My wife still has her iPhone which I recently upgraded to firmware version 2.2. This weekend, out of the blue, I asked her how it was performing. She replied "I just has to reboot the phone a minute ago."
I figure, if I have to deal with software lagginess and crashes, I might as well have a system that is accessible and customizable instead of one that is locked down. Oh, and the few extra buttons on the Fuze certainly do make a difference. But really, I find the Fuze with a new ROM MUCH MUCH more stable than the iPhone ever was.

Nice post, well thought out and honest. I, too, have a Fuze and am considering an Iphone. The bigger screen is a major factor; the Fuze screen is just so .. small! high-res is great, but pointless when you need to zoom in so close on things to read them that you might as well be running QVGA.
It seems I have a love/hate relationship with the Fuze, as many do here. One day, it drives me nuts -- Opera freezes up, scrolls and zooms in and out and behaves weird, the phone acts slow, bad GPS fix, and so on. I get frustrated and seriously consider returning it. Then, the next day it works like a dream! Quick GPS fix, opera works perfect, I discover something I did not know about before (i.e., circling your finger on a portion of a photo to zoom in right there -- cool!) and I would be sad to see it go.
I guess all we can do is be patient. As you said, other phones got better with age; I think it stands to reason that the same thing will happen with the Fuze. As better optimized web browsers get released (i.e., Fennec) and (hopefully) video drivers get updated, the whole experience should get better. If by some miracle we get WM7, who knows what that might bring. yeah, the hardware is frustrating -- small screen, weird buttons, no headphone jack -- but I think it is enough to deal with for now if we can get the software and drivers all optimized.

Thanks for all the great replies, guys. So far I have had the iPhone for just a shade over 48 hours, and I've updated to 2.2. I've experience no crashes yet, but I did need to reboot once after installing an app last night (weird, yet no biggie to me because I'm used to it in the Windows world).
I have to agree--I HATE that I can't run more than one app at a time on the iPhone. I don't know why they do that, but I can only presume that it's done that way in order to force memory to stay free so the OS remains quick and responsive. It's kind of a ****ty tradeoff IMHO, but at the same time...I'm liking the responsiveness and I *usually* don't do more than one thing at a time anyway. It's nice to have the option though.
By all means, I don't think Fuze is a waste at all (except in AT&T's horrible software load. What the hell are they thinking? Honestly they need to fire whoever builds their ROM's and hire somebody who does this as a hobby on XDA), and I think that when it matures it'll be damn difficult to beat. I fully expect WinMo7 to eventually arrive on it (barring some bizarre hardware requirements, but who knows?), but even if it doesn't I think the ROM devs around here will eventually harness this thing into a terrific device. Unfortunately I just don't feel like waiting around, because for my almost $400 out the door I feel I should have walked out of the AT&T store with a phone that blew the doors off most others without any need for a hack.
On the bright side, by the time the ROM's are really mature and crazy fast/stable, the Fuze will probably have dropped in price substantially
For those developing ROM's, some of my thoughts on UI are:
1. Larger buttons! Especially for closing apps and using drop downs, those tiny little default X's are miserable for finger access. Finger friendly is the way of the future.
2. Customize Touchflo. I've seen some slick youtube videos with guys doing very iPhone/Coverflowish stuff and it appears buttery smooth. Of course, I could never find where to get the software to try it out, but if it's doable, heck...do it
3. I dunno if this is possible, but how about setting up some sort of repository for free apps and building a thin client that could run in touchflo, connect to the server, and snag a list of apps available and maybe even install those directly to the phone. I don't see any reason not to steal the App Store's idea, it works well and it's a joy to use. Microsoft should have done this already
Just some thoughts!

I can relate to OP. I'm upgrading form a Wizard as well (T-Mo US MDA). While new ROM's certainly made my Wizard better, I can say that custom ROM's on it were not an absolute requirement. While I continued to be more amazed by my Wizard, I just continue to be a little less pissed off at my Fuse.
XDA is the ONLY reason I have not returned my Fuze. I'm finally back to a totally stripped ROM, with no fancy I wish I bought an IPhone TouchFlo Horse ****, and no AT&T application Douchebaggery.
OP, I feel you on the lack of buttons. I miss playing pocket Nester / GB on my Wizard. I think it says alot when it is totally outclassed and still sticks around as my "GameBoy".
I definitely have mixed feelings about the Fuze. I waited to buy this over the Tilt for the camera, and I have been somewhat impressed by it. I miss the Wizard's Keyboard layout and overall style, with the buttons NOT touching each other.

@Fatheadpi,
I can't agree more (though I am rather enamored with the iPhone's UI. It's not the animation and all that crap though, it's the sheer *speed* of it and ease of getting to anything I want to get to).
Fuze is an impressive piece of hardware, yet at the same time there are issues with it--primarily software--that are really hard to overlook on such an expensive device.

The iPhone has been around for quiet a while now, and has had 2 revisions. The Fuze is fresh out of the box, so making a comparison so early in it's release is a little judgemental. it is possible that alot of out problems can be solved by a nice ROM update (like video drivers). Or just out right fixed by custom ROMs here. if you think that apple listens to what the people want, just take a look at the cut/paste, or Video recording issues.
One of the "great" things about the iPhone is one of it's biggest weakness too. The app store, while its a one stop shopping for apps, is also controled by apple, and they are the final say on what kind of programs you are allowed to run on your device. You also can write new ones (think Schaps Advance config) you have to take what they want you to have and like it. If you try to break their rules, then you might find yourself owning a brick when you sync it.

I think you need to look at this in a little bit of a different light here.
Apple has for the most part stated that they are a software company; almost all of their efforts these days are portals to Itunes where Apple makes money hence the reason for lacking hardware but great UIs and access to Itunes. They make loads more money on Itunes than on hardware.
Looking at this from AT&T's viewpoint they make money on data plans, minutes, texting, basically anything crossing their network so these types of things work great on the phone.
A third party to all of this is HTC which has to make something attractive but gets no additional money at all after you buy the hardware.
So looking at it this way, it makes perfect sense why a pleasurable experience on a Winmo device is driven by the end user, in essence no one else is interested in your problem because they don't make money off of you.
So maybe some entrepreneur out there should figure out a nifty UI like iTunes but for Winmo where a user can buy a new ROM, or try out/buy some cool apps and so forth, figuring out a cool way to upgrade the device.
The real truth here is that Apple owns everything about the iPhone, there is no one entity that owns Winmo devices so individuals end up taking over and this creates multiple and sometimes confusing paths to good stuff.
-Tim

jasongw said:
(except in AT&T's horrible software load. What the hell are they thinking? Honestly they need to fire whoever builds their ROM's and hire somebody who does this as a hobby on XDA)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If they don't do that, we may have to pay more for the device. So I really don't mind all the bloatware (you get what you pay for )
3. I dunno if this is possible, but how about setting up some sort of repository for free apps and building a thin client that could run in touchflo, connect to the server, and snag a list of apps available and maybe even install those directly to the phone. I don't see any reason not to steal the App Store's idea, it works well and it's a joy to use. Microsoft should have done this already
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
http://getgecko.org/
I think these guys are trying to do just that. The problem is, ironically, but obviously, the openness.
Then there's this. It's from handango. Never tried it, probably not even close to what apple has. It's not the lack of it, but the way it's presented, which is precisely why--and you nailed this point--iphones sell. Of course, as I mentioned previously, most winmo users are at least prosumers, so they know what to do without all the oversimplifications.

Jblakk--
I get what you're saying about comparing the two, but I have to disagree. The Fuze is brand new, but essentially Fuze is to, say, an HTC Wizard as iPhone 3G is to iPhone. That's to say, it's not new, it's merely a refinement of what's come before.
And Fuze gets a lot right, I know, just as iPhone gets a lot wrong. Yes, it's judgmental to point out the strengths and weaknesses of the fuze, but I don't see anything wrong with that. Judging is a natural and appropriate action for humans, and I'd argue we should judge more, not less (but in a rational way, not an emotional "I'll kill you for disagreeing" way). That's philosophy though, and I'm just talking phone/PDA's
I realize that Apple has final say on the app store, but from what I can see it appears that they aren't being too tyrannical about the content. There are literally thousands of apps available, and so far I've filled up 5 screens worth of apps I wanted to try out. It was easy to find them, easy to install them, and for the ones I didn't quite like, it was easy to kick them to the curb.
I have to say you're dead on about cut/paste and video recording. I can't even imagine how they left those out, especially cut and paste. I mean does it get any more basic than cut and paste? . Hopefully that will be resolved soon, I can't imagine it's all that complicated.
My point here has never been to say that the Fuze is super terrible and iPhone is the uber shizz; clearly both phones have their strengths, and both have their weaknesses. Right now, based on my experience with both and coming off the still-my-overall-favorite-phone-to-date the HTC Wizard, I feel that where the iPhone leads is entirely in the execution of the software. Windows Mobile 6 is barely a step above 5 (in fact, it IS 5 if you get right to it, 5.2.xxxx) and it's really showing its age.
I think a reasonable argument could be made that the Fuze hardware deserves better than what Windows Mobile's current incarnations have to offer. However, as I mentioned, I do think the miracle workers at XDA will pull some sweet tricks out of their hats eventually and make the fuze pretty damn sweet. And if Microsoft follows its usual pattern, WM7 will finally catch up to iPhone's OS and probably refine and improve on it in various ways. It'll be exciting to see what happens on that front

@g2tl-- Gecko seems like a great idea, I really hope they make some good progress. I hadn't heard of that before, but I'll definitely be following their progress from here on out! Thanks for the heads up!
As for getting what you pay for, that's almost always true but I think there's an exception here. On the fuze you're getting more impressive hardware, but you're getting a much less polished piece of software that's quite outdated and difficult to manage by modern standards. Now, I'm a 13 year IT geek (good lord, did I just admit that?) so I've never been afraid of getting my hands dirty, and goodness knows it's a miracle my old 8125 survived all the flashing I did to it, but at a certain point it's nice for a device to just *work* without a lot of dicking around with it.
I am sure WinMo will eventually be that software, probably with WinMo7. It's just not there yet, and I think the real shame of that is that an awesome device like the Fuze (or any flavor of the touch pro for that matter) won't really be used to its full potential because the software is lagging so far behind the device itself.

Tim, I do get all that, and you're exactly right. I also think that's where a great many of the problems with WinMo come from, the fact that carriers can just shovel piles and piles of junk onto these phones just drags down the user experience.
I'd say maybe Microsoft needs to put out their own phone where they can present a coherent experience (their new Xbox Live interface is friggin' awesome), but then I'm sure we'd have a lot of crying foul from assorted carriers and competitors who cry monopoly. There's probably no easy solution from a development and implementation standpoint, but from a consumer standpoint it's actually fairly easy: go buy the device that offers what you need.
Right now for me--and surprisingly so because I never imagined buying one of these until 2 days ago--that device appears to be iPhone. I truly do hope for a WinMo7 device or even a Fuze WinMo7 hack that'll win me back eventually. I still love the dark side

jason - Suggestion for you, as this is finally what has made me very happy with my Fuse. Probably a little too late as you're running an I-Phone.
Think about this: You were a Wizard user. When you upgraded, you probably wanted a better camera, more power, and 16 gig storage options. You were probably running an OC'd cooked rom WITHOUT TouchFlo.
Here's my suggestion.
Starting from scratch, I have the phone I wanted after about an hour's work. TouchFlo 3D just continues to piss me off. The only nice things about it were the picture viewer, weather, and the music setup. However, I have music controls on my BT Headset, and I'll probably go find the HTC Music player / plugin tonite. I have HTC picture viewer installed in an out of the way place for the rare times I look at my pics. I'll figure something out for the weather option, tho I've lived without it for a number of years.
Thinking about it, it all kinda makes sense. PC users build PC's and use Windows because we know exactly what we want and how we want it. We don't put flashy, pointless bull**** interfaces up front to slow things down. (at least pre-Vista, anyways.)
Still tho, the Raphael and Diamond needed a different control pad and button set. Macs were built around the idea that an average idiot (no offense to MacFags) could just use something. PC's are designed with a bunch of buttons because PCFags will customize that to do awesome stuff.

jasongw said:
Jblakk--
I get what you're saying about comparing the two, but I have to disagree. The Fuze is brand new, but essentially Fuze is to, say, an HTC Wizard as iPhone 3G is to iPhone. That's to say, it's not new, it's merely a refinement of what's come before.
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I'll have to dissagree with you there, as the hardware is so different, it's a copletely different device. I came from the Hermes(8525) and it's not even close to the same(and I did love my heremes)
And Fuze gets a lot right, I know, just as iPhone gets a lot wrong. Yes, it's judgmental to point out the strengths and weaknesses of the fuze, but I don't see anything wrong with that. Judging is a natural and appropriate action for humans, and I'd argue we should judge more, not less (but in a rational way, not an emotional "I'll kill you for disagreeing" way). That's philosophy though, and I'm just talking phone/PDA's
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I think what I said just came out wrong. I think over-critical would have been more accurate. I think that we look at things in perspective, and make decisions based on our needs. While I know that neither device is perfect(what one is?) we just need for figure out what job does the job best for us, and makes us happy.
I realize that Apple has final say on the app store, but from what I can see it appears that they aren't being too tyrannical about the content. There are literally thousands of apps available, and so far I've filled up 5 screens worth of apps I wanted to try out. It was easy to find them, easy to install them, and for the ones I didn't quite like, it was easy to kick them to the curb.
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Don't forget that not all of thoes apps are free, and you don't get demos of stuff try make sure they work as advertised. I have friends that nickle and dime themselves too death due to the app store. I don't think the idea is bad idea by any means though.
I have to say you're dead on about cut/paste and video recording. I can't even imagine how they left those out, especially cut and paste. I mean does it get any more basic than cut and paste? . Hopefully that will be resolved soon, I can't imagine it's all that complicated.
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iPhone users have been asking for thoes 2 functions for well over a year, and they all say...Its comming soon...for a year now. I'm guessing that Mr. Jobs doesnt want you to have it for some reason.
My point here has never been to say that the Fuze is super terrible and iPhone is the uber shizz; clearly both phones have their strengths, and both have their weaknesses. Right now, based on my experience with both and coming off the still-my-overall-favorite-phone-to-date the HTC Wizard, I feel that where the iPhone leads is entirely in the execution of the software. Windows Mobile 6 is barely a step above 5 (in fact, it IS 5 if you get right to it, 5.2.xxxx) and it's really showing its age.
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I won't dissagree with you on that. 6.1 was a bigger improvement that 5 to 6 was. Hopping that 6.5 will get the boost it very much needs. And don't ever forget that Touchflo 3D was HTCs way of hiding the windows interface, due to its seriously unfrendlyness. But also remember that iPhone was geared towards the casual Multi-media use, and the Fuze is aimed towards the average power user.
I think a reasonable argument could be made that the Fuze hardware deserves better than what Windows Mobile's current incarnations have to offer. However, as I mentioned, I do think the miracle workers at XDA will pull some sweet tricks out of their hats eventually and make the fuze pretty damn sweet. And if Microsoft follows its usual pattern, WM7 will finally catch up to iPhone's OS and probably refine and improve on it in various ways. It'll be exciting to see what happens on that front
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I will agree with that. But just like the arguement over PC vs mac, it's not a fair comparison. It needs to be Dell XPS vs Mac, or Toshiba Satalite vs Mac. There is no such thing as a PC (technicaly a Mac is a PC too...Personal Computer). And Apple has the unfair advantage of only writing software for papriatary hardware, where Microsoft has to write software for millions of combinations of hardware, and in the end it's all about drivers.
In the end, see what serves your needs best, but I do not think that the Fuze will drive anyone to be iPhone users. With the Fuzes lack of advertising, and the Apple's Mind numbing advetising, I think that people that look at the fuze as an option already have the mindset that the iPhone just will not do what they need.

In advance let me say thanks to everyone for having such a civil discussion. I am thoroughly impressed and appreciative. I was *sure* somebody would have come in with the raving and yelling attitude by now and I've happily been proven wrong. I REALLY appreciate that; flame wars got old and boring a loooong time ago IMHO
@Fatheadpi,
Thank you for the suggestion. At some point in the future I hope to get another fuze or perhaps its successor. Of course, by then I hope for WM7 and an actual answer to the ease of use features in iPhone (I'm still a PC guy at heart, I'd love to see Apple get ***** slapped at their own game). Suffice to say, unless AT&T cleans up its act (which I doubt, they never did do right by Wizard users and it was only XDA cookers who made that device be all that it could be) I am sure that the Fuze will continue to be a "Cooked ROMs only" device.
@JBlakk,
Wow, what a nice response . I won't go point by point, but I think you've made a lot of good points, and I agree with many. Hell, I still build my own PC's (I've only recently started using Vista though, and I mostly hate it so I turn off almost all the fancy crap).
Also I think you definitely have a point about the marketing aspect and who the fuze is (or at least ought to be) targeted toward. I'd make the argument though that if AT&T is targeting the "power user" they still missed the mark with the software by loading it will all that ridiculous bloat.
I like the appearance of TouchFlo3D, but man the performance is just sad, especially on such a high end piece of phone hardware. My biggest gripe is absolutely in the software execution, but I am, to reiterate again, quite confident that as the ROM's mature and the cookers get their heads around the nuances of the phone itself, we'll see some amazing performance from Fuze.
Thanks again guys! It's been loads of fun
Jason

I'll be civil...
I understand what you are saying, if you just want something that works 99.9% of the time the iPhone is the perfect phone for you. I however like to play with things and no how much I deny it I like finding problems and fixing them, and Microsoft's products are perfect for that. Also the open source-ness of M$ is another thing that draws me to their products.
I was worried, being an open Apple hater(I have nightmares about getting iPhones for Christmas...), that AT&T would not carry another phone with a touch screen after they signed the deal with Apple. The Touch Pro is/will be perfect for me in that sense. Apple is flashy and pretty, but extremely constrained in the sense that Apple likes to keep it's followers in a choke hold, but that's my opinion too.
I also like the keyboard of the Fuze/Touch Pro/Raphael(Why do they need so many names for the same device?!)
So in short I'm not going to flame you because you chose an Apple product over a M$ one, I honestly don't care as it's your money and your decision. I think the latest Touch Pro's are better than the first release models though...but that could be just speculation.
((Also the lack of cut/copy/paste is an EXTREME drawback for me))

I also went to the darkside (iPhone) after returning my fuze. I have said it in previous posts and to my co-workers that have both iPhones and WinMo devices - it. just. works.
Being an engineer/sys admin by trade I love to tinker and tweak and rip apart and put back together stuff, but in this case the effort it took to get the Fuze/TP to a usable state [for me] wasn't worth it. I am at the stage of my life where I don't have the time to play (7 mo. old will do that to ya).
I wouldn't kick a free or deeply discounted Fuze/TP out of bed, lol, but as many have said, it's what you want out of a device and I needed my device to work out of the box.
That said, so far so good. About 2 trouble-free weeks with the iP3G.
I still come here daily to keep up on the HTC WinMo happenings to satiate my tinker desire. But the iPhone is here to stay - or until WinMo 7 drops at least.

[Q] What does WP7 need the most to convert other OS users?

Listed 4 choices in the poll, if you vote Other... please post a reply with what you think would make an android/iOS/blackberry user convert to wp7.

i guess less microsoft would be the right answer. what a pitty that this really powerfull devices can't even play most avi videos just because they are divx or xvid. mkv can't be played to. mobile phones are focussed on multimedia, but that's not a good deal. who wants to use or convert almost everything to wmv? nobody!
and zune is a pretty nice software buit people don't want to be forced to use it. That's what many complain abot iphone and itunes, and is most probably the reason they pick up android.
Only apple is able to do stupid things like that because they aim a very special group of consumers, who doesn't care what the devices can do. they just need to have the newest fancy apple product.
What a shame, because on the other side i think winphone7 is really the most modern and sophisticated OS at the moment.

Definitely not the first 3 choices.
I voted "other" thinking about UI workflow and different concept of this.
Devices and Marketing are worse than other platforms.
Some features are better but there is alot missing too.

Other: The Apple/Google Brand name. People have a tendency to buy any crap from Apple or Google these days as long as its not Microsoft.
But yeah in the long run thru good word of mouth WP7 will eventually win

Interesting answers...
I associate microsoft and windows with good software. Just look at Office and tell me it's not the ****. On the other hand, Apple does make very "pretty" software. It makes you feel special when you use it because it animates and looks a certain way.
Google has always been the odd one, it has horrible UI and their chrome browser is ugly as well.

I agree with everyone else to an extent, but I actually think that the biggest thing is that it is lacking in features. You can't send video clips via text message, you can't have custom alert sounds and you can't even have custom ring tones (without hacking it). I think that missing features such as these is a major turn off for people looking for a new phone.

Windows Phone 7 needs a constant and unending series of free commercials losely disguised as the evening news. Just in day to day contact it seems like the majority of people don't really "hate" MSFT, but they love to get caught up in the hype provided by the masters of buzz, Apple and the likes. MSFT should just drop some checks in the pockets of these pseudo-reporters we know as bloggers and buy their buzz.
We all know that the masses do not really care about the number of cores, an extra 0.1 inch of screen size, or an extra megapixel of camera resolution (if they did the iPhone would not be eatng other manufacturer's lunch). They want to walk into the room and when they take out their phone they want someone to say "is that the latest iPhone?"
This is not a slight at iPhone users, I still have my 3GS, but today people's phones are like their car or wardrobe. It's sometime a fashion accessory.
Sorry to ramble. I know I'm not saying anything that those on this forum haven't already observed.

Nobody975 said:
I agree with everyone else to an extent, but I actually think that the biggest thing is that it is lacking in features. You can't send video clips via text message, you can't have custom alert sounds and you can't even have custom ring tones (without hacking it). I think that missing features such as these is a major turn off for people looking for a new phone.
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Video to text, and custom ring tones added to mango
Sent from my Windows Phone Mango Focus using Board Express

mikroland said:
Video to text, and custom ring tones added to mango
Sent from my Windows Phone Mango Focus using Board Express
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I Actually just upgraded to mango and I have found many nice upgrades, but I was unable to attach a video to a text. Maybe I'm just doing something wrong! lol I'm still disappointed though that it is such a tedious process to use a custom ringtone... I should be able to just pick a song under Zune, hiold it for a sec. and choose an option "Set as ringtone"...But, that is not how easy it is...Not too much of a problem for me, but I have a few friends who are bothered by it.

...I voted for "better marketing". Having had GSM devices since the beginning and having been a "WM Power User" for a couple of years, flashing and tweaking everything I was able to lay hands on, I can say that WP7, even in the actual NoDo-Version is the most awesome OS I ever used. Before settling for WP7, I also tried Android on an HTC HD2 and I found it had basically the same problems as WM6.5 WP7 is working "out of the box" and I don't need to spend hours flashing and tweaking to make in run smoothly. There are of course some features which are still missing, but most of them will be included in Mango. And Mango will not be the end of the line.....
WP7 needs a better and more agressive marketing. Apple managed to establish "iPhone" as synonym for "smartphone" and ironically with hardware which has never been top technology. Even with the millions of Apple and Android devices in the market, this only scratches the surface of the potential and future markets of smartphones which goes into billions. The WP7 alliance of Microsoft, the makers, the providers and the trade have to find an efficient way to communicate the advantages of the WP7 philosophy (don't let your phone take over your life) to the non technic affine public, which actually are the hughe majority of the potential users.....

It actually needs all of these. In fact, it's an easy textbook case in terms of theory, here's what they need:
1. Meaningful effective positioning and branding. The "Really?" ads won't cut it. The "In and Out" message is totally missing the point, nobody understands what it's about. Using the "Windows Phone" name is totally stupid.
2. Variety of cool and sexy hardware (not the 4.7" Eternity stuff, and not just one or two decent phones, with all the buzzwords in place such as megapixels, gigabytes, super AMOLED plus ultra, what not), shelf presence everywhere (countries, operators), and of course training/stimulating floor staff.
3. Completed concept of hubs/integration, for third party apps/services to really be an integral part of the OS, or "immersive" as MS call it.
4. Seamless backup/device-to-device migration, carrying over settings, app data etc. This isn't crucial right now, but will be a must have in a year or so, and could be a differentiating factor over Android, although it's more important for markets where handsets aren't subsidized. In the US this can wait. However, a migration path from Android/iOS would be useful even there.
5. Integration with "big" Windows, Windows on tablets which would work well with WP7, together with repositioned/rebranded/streamlined Live services which should be a joy to use as opposed to current PITA state.
6. Introducing lots of things for media to talk about over the next year or two.
7. Profit
Unfortunately, 1. is out of the question, not gonna happen. Hardware depends on manufacturers (Nokia alone won't do it). Most other things, even if understood at Microsoft, will take a year at least. So don't expect anything radically exciting happening this year.

Numbers.
It's a numbers game - more devices = more users.

Also have it so that my WP7 phone will mount as a hard drive without Zune software. So dumb that it doesn't. All of my Androids do that!