Will You Switch To the iPhone 2.0? - General Questions and Answers

Will You Switch To the iPhone 2.0? - General Questions and Answers

As June 9th is just around the corner, I am just curious who will switch over to the new 3G iPhone? This maybe the wrong place to ask since everyone is a WM user including myself, very happy with my Trinity, but just really curious as to what it will take for you to switch to the new iPhone. I used the current iPhone for just over a month and I must say that Safari, the screen, and the user interface is unmatched atm. It did lack many things but with the SDK launching it could be a whole new world. Just curious what your thoughts are...and just incase you are curious my iPhone was a lemon (long story) so it just heated up and broke. Since I unlocked it myself the warranty was voided.

Depends on whether it'll be able to record calls. If it can, I may dump my current HTC Oxygen (one of the VERY few HTC models to support recording) and switch to the iPhone,

no
maybe if i can handwrite on it

Another no here.
WM is more versatile for me, that and I dont like the dumbed down approach that Apple takes on all of its devices.
Also with the X1 around the corner, I don't think I'll be making the switch any time soon.

No Way! WM rules!
But, let us know how it works out for u after a few months?

galaxys said:
No Way! WM rules!
But, let us know how it works out for u after a few months?
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It will need GPS for me to get it, and I don't want something that half the world may have...
It will probably be the Raphael or the X1 for me.

dumbed-down is a little unfair. The approach of the Iphone is to make things simple so that everyone can enjoy it. I'm used to Winmo and I'm used to Symbian but there is a definite draw to the Iphone's sleek, intuitive and WELL THOUGHT OUT system. What's WRONG with simple if all the functionality is there? Would you not take all the features of Winmo if they were put into a simpler package? Or is it better to have everything bogged down in menus?
Granted it's not there yet, but with external GPS support at least the Iphone could become serious competition - people aren't apeing its ideas for nothing.
The SDK release has seen a huge surge in development for the Iphone: it has to be seen to be believed.
I may get an Iphone; I probably won't but it crosses my mind occasionally. At the very least the introduction of the Iphone has made Windows Mobile users' experience a HELL OF A LOT BETTER as Opera 9.5 and Iphone-mimicing systems such as Touchflo prove.

I'm a proud WM owner here however I do own the first iPhone (don't use it much) and I propably will buy the iPhone 2.0 but I doubt I will use it as a primary phone. I'm a bit of a gadget freak and like to handle the devices myself rather then read about them but with all the things I can do with the WM devices I doubt I will switch to the iPhone.

I'm too dependent on 3rd party apps as references, so NO I won't switch at the moment.
...

Lol! Great poll! WinMo all the way for me!
I'll keep my device and continue to trump the iPhone users with my device, even if it is upgraded, I'll just upgrade more!

GPS was one of my "must have" for a phone and if the 2nd Gen iPhone has it, it will definitely be worth looking at. It took a very long time for WM to get GPS to be pretty much standard and if it only took Apple one year to put GPS on then they are really listening to the average consumers. IMHO I highly doubt there will be built in GPS or A2DP. Only time will tell.

I once thought that if iPhone has GPS, if it has ability to take in spare battery, if it has a slot for microSDHC, if it has 7.2Mb/s download speed, then I would definitely switch over. But then I think again, and said, no, I still won't.
The first reason is I have so many very attractive third party software that would only run on win mo platform and not iPhone platform.
The second reason is that some of the winmo phone are already having close to iPhone user interface anyway. HTC diamond, HTC Raphael, Sony Xperia X1, just to name a few.
The third reason is that I'm a person who get bored with the same phone very quickly, no matter how complete it is, how user friendly it is, and how slick it is. I just need to change the way it looks and feel every now and then without actually changing the phone itself. Winmo is the only platform that lets me do this. I change ROM, I change what gets shown on the today screen, I change the resolution (96 to 128, to 192), giving me a feeling that it is a completely new phone every now and then. I keep swaping in and out my weather program, my youtube player, my file explorer. I spend considerable of my freetime looking for better and newer third party applications, and this hobby is additive almost. If I switch to iPhone, I guess I'd be happy with it only for a few days, and then it'd be just boredom after that.
In some ways iPhone is ahead of the pack, but it is way way behind in many other respect and is playing a catch up game. Sorry, but this is true. It is understandable because it is still new in this field.

I wont upgrade to iphone as I dont like apples 'Locked Down' approach to everything... if they want more dominance then they need to open it up... not just by offering applications through itunes.

I'd need full synchronization with MS Offce, similar to what you get from Activesync before considering iphone.

No, not at all. Until Apple realise that "youtube" isn't important enough to warrant its own menu icon then their devices won't appeal to me! I like the versitality of Windows Mobile devices

eaglesteve said:
If I switch to iPhone, I guess I'd be happy with it only for a few days, and then it'd be just boredom after that.
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You hit it on the head right there, my friend. I get bored and change things up constantly...I don't know if I could handle being stuck with the same screens forever.

For my work (techy for large manufacturing corp.) I have both an iPhone (beta 2 firmware) and Treo 750 (wm6 to 6.1 depending on how I feel that day/week) and while the iPhone does some multimedia stuff better, but from a total end-user experience the Treo is a much better device. I however, have to believe that the next "true" incarnation of the iPhone (this 3g release not being it) will be much closer to the "desktop" experience. When they do "open" the device to end user customization (i.e. installing apps, fine tuning device behavior) in addition to adding basic functionality (e.g. cut and paste) and continued in-roads to exchange they will then have a product to compete against. I will give Apple the nod that they certainly raised the bar with this 1st attempt - look at all the threads here trying to duplicate the home page and all the advances in the touch ui that have since taken place. Granted this may have eventually come about, but the iPhone has to be given credit for "encouraging" more fervent development.
But since that is just a "hunch" right now, I will only hope my employer gives me the 3g upgrade just so I don't have to suffer through edge any longer. But really am looking forward to seeing the Diamond and/or Raphael in the states. What I have seen of the UI is just brilliant and looks to have raised the bar I earlier mentioned a couple of notches higher still.
Cheers!

sure, iPhone is an eye candy, but other than that. It is really a flashy toy to lug around. For functionality, I would stick with either Diamond or Sonyericsson X1.

ir the iphone had third party applications allowing a wider margin of customization, gps, tv.............. maybe id get it as a plaything or a pet for my Sprint Touch lol but not my main phone fo sho, it looks nice and flashy but thats the case, its designed for dumb pple that dont know much about modern functuality in a phone and lets themselves be seduced of the looks and flashy interface leading them to believe that its Gods phone lol, makes me laugh... anyway id admit that i might get it but not as my main phone

think i will be getting it will still use WM tho i'll have both i just liek the way the iphone looks and feels nice and sexy

Related

Samsung F700 - slide out QWERTY keyboard killer or iPhone killer?

Finally some competion for HTC...
http://www.samsung.com/PressCenter/PressRelease/PressRelease.asp?seq=20070208_0000320566#
Looks really sweet...
Now what should I choose next time... HTC Kaiser, Samsung F700, iPhone, SE Elena? The future looks bright hope my Wizard will last untill its here
:-F

Not really a HTC killer as it is not using any standard OS for the phone (eg it is not 'smart' phone). It will be more of a iPhone killer. More pictures and info here. The phone doesn't run WM5 or anything that 'is interesting', for geeks like us, so WMobile phones are save from this, but not iPhone. Consider iPhone will only be out 4 months later, this will definately be a killer for iPhone sales. And, consider that iPhone is targetting the trendy group, the **5MP auto-focus** camera will definately draw people away from iPhone.
Anyway, back to this Samsung phone. As it said, it uses 'Flash UI', which seems to be getting popular these days. Recently, I bang into a Prada phone news and wondering what a top designer firm's phone will be working on, and the answer is Macromedia Flash UI. Rather disappointing. However, consider these girls stuff usually look pretty without much 'internal' significant (eg. expensive girl watch with diamons all around usually runs on cheap battery based mechanism), Flash UI will do. More pictures here.. iPhone really need Apple and iPod supporters.
BTW, freffe, you may want to change the topic to "Samsung F700 - the iPhone killer??" to grab some attention

Maybee I don't really agree on your definition of a smartphone, I don't really care what OS it runs as long as it does what I want without to many bugs. Maybee I'm not as geeky as you are
Excepts for the geeks then, a lot of people will probably consider the F700 when looking for a big screen (slideout) QWERTY keyboard, which we all know is a great formfactor. It will be a competitor for Kaiser and the others... Hopefully that will lead to improvements in the HTC/WM area so the "real" geeks will benefit from this none the less
Yeah I love the formfactor of my Wizard, but the quality isn't really what i hoped for and WM5 still lacks a lot of the smartness and consistency that would make it a really great device. Compare the SMS and MMS applications, in SMS you can start typing letter and it will look it up in the addressbook, the MMS doesn't do that, you have to type phonenumber or click on the icon to go to the adressbook and select a recepient. And why doesn't it go into numeric mode automatically when you are typing in a field where it only makes sense to type numbers?
I'm not inteding to make this into a bash WM5 thread im just pointing out som annoyances, to make the point that competion is a good thing even though 'us geeks' wouldn't buy it.

The problem with non-standard OS on phone is that you can't have 3rd party software in it. I'm not sure (we will know soon though), this Samsung phone may be as good as other samsung phone that the only applications that you can use is via the Java runtime.
There is a saying, in the engineering deparment where I used to study, said something like this, "If a device doesn't have problems, it is doesn't have enough features". Which in a way is true. Consider normal non-smart phone that is relatively bug free, does do that it suppose to do. It is just that, it doesn't have enough features (for the geeks, I guess). For people who just wanted to use a phone (eg my gf), normal will do the job.
BTW, for less bugs with more features, I think you ought to try the Sony's P900 series PDA, which I heard is relatively stable on the Symbian OS, and (as all Sony stuff) well designed with very very very very very very tiny qwerty keyboard. Also, there are (or at least, used to be) some Motorolla phone that runs on Linux. Those are quite cool too. Try to google for Linux based phone, there are quite a number of them. They aren't much customizable, but they are stable.
There is also an option for not-much-function phone, the Sidekick. I'm not sure how bug free this phone is.

Exciting News for everyone!!!

http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/what.s-w...ow-wm7-and-wm8-are-going-to-fix-it-333536.php
Very interesting article

Wow, that was a great article! The author hit his points right on the head. Sounds like WM8 will be the one to go for, however who knows how long that will take to come out.
Also, in the meantime HTC has to get their heads out of their asses and release some quality and speedy hardware! What the hell happened to the OMNi, the Universal successor?! There's still not a decent phone that can replace it yet, and the Uni is over 2 years old! On the other hand, the i-Mate Ultimate 9502 looks like a decent piece of hardware (spec-wise) but its ugly as sin and the build quality will most likely be lower than HTC...I also hear that i-Mate is in financial trouble now too...
Oh well, I have finally completed the process of flashing a new WM5 ROM that I'm happy with, and my Uni is working great for now. I just hope that the future looks good for WM8 and HTC...I'll be sitting in my waiting chair for now, to see how this all develops over time.

well http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Mobile#Photon_.282009.29
wm7 will be out next year so it could take awhile before wm8 come around

The article is so sad. I have been using WM for years and it does everything I want and more. Every point the guy makes is easily fixable with any task manager, there are heaps or free ones.
A non power user dosen't care if the apps close or not.
Iphone is all about the hype, anything that it does WM has been doing for 10 years.

Thats how I feel too. I have very little problems but a new OS is always exciting. I know I was losing my mind the first time I found Faria's Crossbow for the wizard. That was my first taste of windows mobile 6 and it was great.

I almost wanna check out the ETEN x800. I havent seen any in the states. But im gonna keep my eye out. I love my Herm200 but hey thats got the memory of a 8925 and I think its like 500.

scar45 said:
There's still not a decent phone that can replace it yet, and the Uni is over 2 years old!
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Click to collapse
I think I'll go back to the separated-device route. The iPAQ 214 for the workhorse, quality PDA and the Nokia N95 for the phone + GPS + camera + 3D hardware-accelerated gaming machine + HSDPA modem + push mail client.
scar45 said:
On the other hand, the i-Mate Ultimate 9502 looks like a decent piece of hardware (spec-wise)
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Too bad it's only PXA270-based... already outdated. A no-go for me. Why would I buy a non-PXA310-based device in 2008, when the iPAQ 214 already has the new CPU?

@Menneisyys
I think you may have made a tiny error, the iMate 9502 is the ugly one with a Qualcomm MSM7200 processor.

njakobs said:
The article is so sad. I have been using WM for years and it does everything I want and more. Every point the guy makes is easily fixable with any task manager, there are heaps or free ones.
A non power user dosen't care if the apps close or not.
Iphone is all about the hype, anything that it does WM has been doing for 10 years.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Not to get into a WM vs iPhone debate, but I disagree. I have about every iteration of WM device and still choose the iPhone on a daily basis. I am not really a mac user or care about any of the hype, for me it is simply a great device and os. Yes, WM can do most of the things the iPhone can, but not with anywhere near the same ease of use (i.e. can anyone figure it out), speed (no task manager needed with a 600+Mhz processor) screen clarity (see it in sunlight!), touch screen responsiveness (capacitance vs resistance) accelerometer for auto landscape of the browser, pictures and iPod, and the amazing build quality. I won't even go into the applications and how amazingly intuative they are. To make my Touch XL or Tinity work even close to my iPhone it takes over ten added applications that don't always work together. If you think the iPhone is only hype, you likely have not spent any time with one - it's addicting. My point is simply to state that, as a WM user the iPhone has raised the bar both on the hardware and software side and I hope it is not years before Microsoft and the manufacturers catch up.

2manyphones said:
Not to get into a WM vs iPhone debate, but I disagree. I have about every iteration of WM device and still choose the iPhone on a daily basis. I am not really a mac user or care about any of the hype, for me it is simply a great device and os. Yes, WM can do most of the things the iPhone can, but not with anywhere near the same ease of use (i.e. can anyone figure it out), speed (no task manager needed with a 600+Mhz processor) screen clarity (see it in sunlight!), touch screen responsiveness (capacitance vs resistance) accelerometer for auto landscape of the browser, pictures and iPod, and the amazing build quality. I won't even go into the applications and how amazingly intuative they are. To make my Touch XL or Tinity work even close to my iPhone it takes over ten added applications that don't always work together. If you think the iPhone is only hype, you likely have not spent any time with one - it's addicting. My point is simply to state that, as a WM user the iPhone has raised the bar both on the hardware and software side and I hope it is not years before Microsoft and the manufacturers catch up.
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Click to collapse
I guess you are right in a lot of aspects. However, Apple's flaw (and quite possibly the iPhone's downfall) is the lack of capability for the power users. Both my mom and my brother have iPhones so I have had plenty of chances to mess around with them. Not only did I not find it addictive, but after using it for 10 minutes, I just put it down and started messing around with my Blue Angel (now 3 years old and running WM6). I personally consider myself a medium (on the salsa scale ) power user of WM, but after watching a couple of YouTube videos and scrolling through album covers with my fingers while tilting the device back and forward, I started thinking: "well, now what?"
There are numerous advantages of iPhones over WM devices and vice-versa, but the article is mainly comparing the WM interface with the iphone's interface, and that is what this is all about. M$ interfaces have been progressively getting worse over the years (or at least not getting any better), while Apple completely hit a homerun with their interface. This sole fact gave birth to the future of WM. If you do not believe me, check out the "development and hacking" section of this forum and tell me how many new UIs you can see floating around. I personally have 4 in my device (FreeStyle, PointUI, iTask (came out yesterday), and Slither's Cube.
Hopefully, they will be able to do something based on what is out there (i.e. HTC X-Button (true closing any app), PointUI, PocketCM, TCPMP, etc, etc...). But make no mistake, there is a lot to be done to our devices, and hopefully M$ truly knows about it and are planning to do something about it...
Long Live XDA-Devs!!!!

another thing with iphone which may work agenst it in eu and asia is lack of t9 not very fast to write sms's in 10sec
heck here kids write sms's on their phones even in school under the table so the teacher dont take their phones even if the iphone keyboard is easier to use the defualt ms tiny keyboard phone pad and normal phones got a better chance of being used "blindfolded"

I do agree, the WM UI sucks by default and the usability leaves a lot to be desired. The good thing is that almost anything is possible. Luckily HTC and the devs of this site have fixed a huge number of WM flaws. My Touch was pretty usable out of the box. The devs here improved it even more by adding PocketCM for example. I just flashed the Shadow Wm 6.1 rom yesterday and it's damn fast, like having a new phone.
I would like a better browser and a more finger friendly UI. PointUI looks very promising but still has some issues. We'll get there, it just takes a while.
I do think WM has made big improvements over the years though. I remember my first WM phone (Orange SPV, Smartphone 2002), it was the worst phone I ever had although it did have some nice things at the time. I swore I would never ever buy a WM phone again. This summer I fell in love with the Touch and keep tinkering with it.

Rudegar said:
another thing with iphone which may work agenst it in eu and asia is lack of t9 not very fast to write sms's in 10sec.....
"
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Very good point Rudegar, another reason the iPhone will never fly in Asia is the lack of stylus for writing Chinese characters. MANY people who buy a touchscreen devicedo so exclusively so they can handwrite characters. The iPhone is going to have to change a lot for that to happen. Really, people shouldn;t think about the iPhone so much. It's going to probably never even make it to the asian market, which frankly is such a large market that US iPhone sales don't even make a difference. The real powerhouses are going to continue to be the people who dominate the asian handset markets.

Why the Lag !

I been using the iphone today.....what a smooth operator...everything just flows...the page animations the opening of applications...the look and feel, the way touch works. The typing (mind you Cooteks Touch and icontact is on par with it )very impressive...it even takes batter pictures than the cruise and its only got a 2meg camera...using my cruise everything is laggy....I cant wait for the drivers or update. If people like larna and others can do wonders to the speed of applications then what the hell are original developers and manufacturers doing. I say thank you for this forum...If HTC/Microsoft had been thorough as Apple was with the iphone the cruise/WM would be a different beast altogether.
I think Microsoft must be going through what Mercedes and BMW went through when the first Lexus model came out and caught them sleeping.
Nice phone the iphone but very limited when compared to ours....but things could change.

I think much is about WM. And dont forget, Apple spend all their ressources to get their OS running on one Hardware. WM runs on hundreds of different Hardware.
Be sure, if the people at MS would optimze WM only for the Touch Cruise it would run much smoother.
I think a capacitive Display would help much. I'm often not sure if pressing a soft button worked. That makes working on it feeling laggy (beside slow program starts).
The WM developers have ignored any work on the UI for years. Now they got payback, the WM UI looks like an ugly Windows 95 UI and is totally outdated.
You can see that a smooth UI is possible by looking at pointui.
But do not forget the WM advantages.
All the availabe software, for example WMwifirouter.
That on iphone? I think it will never be...

Agreed....I can only fault Microsoft in Slow Deveopement....whereas the Manufacturers trying to make everyhing generic compatible instead of optimizing....now if they even aimed for the latter, no only would our devices be useably versatile, they would be decently fast and efficient.
We can only hope that WM7 will better developed for touch and hopefully not a memory hogger ...aka Vista.

On June 2008 the rumor say we will have a 3G Iphone + integrated GPS + open SDK. All for not more than $500 USD.
Nobody will touch the touch cruise with a stick at that point (unless the price will be reduced to $250, or something close). So I believe we're going to see new phones from HTC pretty soon.

This is s stupid discussion really The iPhone is a completely different concept than Win Mobile. The real question is: Why do you use Win Mobile? If it's for the coolness factor than iPhone is the much better alternative. If you want productivity than forget the iPhone It's that simple.

This is s stupid discussion really The iPhone is a completely different concept than Win Mobile. The real question is: Why do you use Win Mobile? If it's for the coolness factor than iPhone is the much better alternative. If you want productivity than forget the iPhone It's that simple.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
With the SDK, the iPhone could potentially have all the important software of the WM. What company wouldn't want to make their mobile software compatible with the iPhone (with millions of users worldwide).

Noam23 said:
With the SDK, the iPhone could potentially have all the important software of the WM. What company wouldn't want to make their mobile software compatible with the iPhone (with millions of users worldwide).
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I hate to say it but I think he's right.
I can and only will speak for myself, even though that may be the case for everyone else as well; but I use a WM based device because of the software. While the iPhone is faster, better looking, smoother flowing...as of right now it is locked down and requires hacks just to browse the file system!!
TheOnly1 said:
This is s stupid discussion really The iPhone is a completely different concept than Win Mobile. The real question is: Why do you use Win Mobile? If it's for the coolness factor than iPhone is the much better alternative. If you want productivity than forget the iPhone It's that simple.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If you are reffering to the current iPhone, i would have to say you are DEAD on. However, if the new one lives up to what people are saying about it (an SDK, gps, 3g),
Then apple would have successfully created something that achieves both outcomes: A cool device with a fast, smooth flowing UI WITH functionality and productivity.
remoh said:
I think much is about WM. And dont forget, Apple spend all their ressources to get their OS running on one Hardware. WM runs on hundreds of different Hardware.
Be sure, if the people at MS would optimze WM only for the Touch Cruise it would run much smoother.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Actually, it is up to the OEMs, not microsoft, to optimize windows mobile for each of their devices. This is where HTC fails time after time in my mind.
Microsoft gives them every opportunity to implement things accelerated graphics, among other things. HTC does not do it!!
And then has the audacity to blame the customers for buying devices based on their chipsets instead of what is actually implemented (or NOT implemented -- LOL).
Since my last HTC purchase of the Touch Cruise, which cost me almost $900 I am extremely upset and dissapointed, not to mention disillusioned. The kaiser and the TC could have been great, but HTC did not want them to be -- they are slow, clunky, unresponsive at times, and i don't see why HTC even put a camera on them 'cause the pictures and video are better left not being captured at all.
If the new iphone lives up to it's promises, i see no reason to ever purchase, nor use another htc product ever again. That is the thing though...Apple is one of those companies I just do not trust and/or like....but just having the possibility of a device like the new iphone will keep my interest peaked!
If everything goes as planned, I believe that mobile developers will definately take advantage of the SDK.
While it will take many months for all the developers out there to create good applications, it will happen.
I'll actually go as far as saying that iPhone software will in fact exceed that of WM software in the future -- Provided that apple releases a decent sdk and does not place absurd restrictions on developers.
Think about it...how long have WM devices been out for...and what is their popularity?
Compare that to how long the iPhone has been out for, and it's popularity...
While currently they are for two completely different concepts;
one for user friendly every day usage, and one a "business" device...
apple seems to be combining both concepts into something that I would consider a "dream" device that I have been waiting for from HTC to put out for years now.
I thought that the TC would in fact be something closely resembling my "dream" device -- And after I actually used it and saw all of the problems with it first hand, I quickly recognized I was completly wrong.
Let's see if Apple can successfully accomplish what HTC has consistently set out to -- and subsequently failed to do so many times.
If they can pull this off, I will definately consider myself a proud iphone owner / user.

i have to admit the only reason i did not buy an iphone its because i did not want to switch to at&t and evryone where i work has one. i just wanted something different so i bought the touch cruise. i am regreting it even as i type. 700plus usd down the drain. when the new iphone is out this summer i am definitely getting one and switching to at&t

i wish i could get my hands on one of the htc developers. i would beat the life out of him. for real. i am mad and pissed. even the clone iphone, the hiphone which i saw with my own two eyes and held in my hands is better than touch cruise. its only 200usd

There are a lot of Touch user using WM device not having too many complaint. I like UI and build of iPhone, but I never forget the experience what smart phone of Nokia and Sony Ericsson running in Symbian. People will just imagine what Apple will enhance the iPhone and offer what we have used in WM device. Just like people asking why manufacturer not offering VGA device. Why don't have a look of the delay of Sony Ericsson X1? Keep an eye on what Apple implement the SDK into their iPhone and software developer introduce program, and to compare what we have with WM device. Looking forward to have a device running in X OS with VGA display with weeks of power with plenty choice of softwares .... and lastly without lag. Just like years ago we are looking for a VGA WM device. Manufacturer like HTC will make such device if it can.

Are you guys serious about the Touch Cruise camera being poor? It has one of the best cameras I've ever seen on a mobile, save for the lack of flash.
-3 Megapixels
-Autofocus
-Excellent macro mode (try taking a picture of anything close up (~3inches) with this vs. a normal camera under normal lighting...TC holds its own, or better yet take a picture of something close up and compare those results to those of an IPhone)
-Auto switch to night mode in poor lighting (remember camcorders with night mode also exhibit lag in night mode, but normal cameras don't lag as they don't use a night mode since they have a flash!)

I must agree with Sonus on the camera. I actually printed out some pictures I took with my TC and they were pretty much OK on paper.

i do believe the tc is a very good device with advantages and disadvantages same as the iphone.
the thing that annoys me most (also while writing this text) the input lags in the touch keyboard or other apps, e.g. switching the t9 language is so crappy - once i click the triangle next to "20", it takes to 5 seconds open the dialogue it similar with other apps.
the good things are:
100% customization
tons of apps - navigation, wlm etc
lastly, i have see the iphone hanging - it could not connect immediately to wifi

I'm positive Apple is not going to put HTC out of business on June 2008, when the 3G iphone is supposedly coming out.
HTC will definitely release formidable competition on fall 2008, probably the dream machines we always wanted to have. My only complaint is that the Touch Cruise / Kaiser have the hardware to be much of that "dream machine", but aren't so because HTC doesn't think it is necessary since these products are competitive enough as it is, in today's market.

I agree with the only1.
Just think of it in business terms, the iphone and touch cruise are aimed at different markets. HTC could probably produce a iphone type device but why should it. HTC devices are more business orientated and sold as such, they are not (imho) trying to compete with consumer based ideas and what looks sexy when playing music or videos. They are aimed at different markets.
If people want a device to look good show off pictures and videos and play music they buy a iphone, for gods sake its a ipod touch that makes calls, so no comparison.
If people want to do all of the above and have a device that can be used as a great business tool buy a touch cruise.
Okay there are some faults but they will probably be fixed on the next device but that too will have its shortcomings and we will give out **** about it and compare it to the newest goddam wonderful iphone, jphone, kphone or whatever with hdtv or can make coffee but thats life. I know we paid big money for what we have but for jaysus sake its "not ****en dark". i.e. you could see what your were buying.
Just my opinion.
A bit strong maybe but thats life.

I dont know what you guys have done to your devices to make the camera so good, but unless i am taking pictures outside when it is sunny out, it will NOT come out clearly at all -- it is very distorted and grainy, not to mention it slows down to a crawl! I have a sony cybershot 2.1 MP camera from 2002 that takes better pictures than a TC cam -- and it cost about 150$ 6 years ago. When its dark or indoors, the LCD on the cybershot doesn't slow down to 1-5 FPS.
Now people say that the TC is a business device and that's true.
But, I for one am sick of trading off functionality for performance on the business devices produced from HTC.
Why can't it be both at the same time?
Unfortuneately, I did go in the dark on this one. Before I bought the TC I didn't research the video driver problems.
I only looked at the specs, researched the chipset and thought I was getting something that would (at least) out perform my PPC-6700 that I purchased over 3 years ago. I was wrong. I don't think HTC will go out of business...not at all, but i DO think that alot of people are in a similar boat that I am in...betrayed by HTC and will continue to hold a grudge against them, and subsequently switch to someone who can provide something better in the future...hopefully, that can be Apple...but I definately have some doubts to say the least, considering what the current iPhone came out as -- a Media player with a phone on it.

PseudoReal said:
switching the t9 language is so crappy - once i click the triangle next to "20", it takes to 5 seconds open the dialogue it similar with other apps.i
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OMG, i have the SAME problem...it is the WORST!!
you have to tap the stupid triangle like 50 times just to get it to switch.
It's an atrocity. Devices from 3 years ago do not even have this problem.
Business device or not, this is just plain unacceptable.
Unless there is a fix for this problem, or I am doing something wrong and do not know about it?
How many ppl have similar experience?

I have that same problem. Takes multiple clicks and major lag to get the input keyboard to show up. The reason I have to chance keyboards is I often use Opera 9.5 and for some reason none of the Touch keypads work with it, so I have to switch them (I think that's another problem could be related to Opera still being beta). Also every once in awhile I can't get to the PocketCM keyboard and instead get the lame Windows default one. But that also is another problem.
Back to the lag, every once in awhile I will get lag here or there, e.g. will click on the task manager on the top right and not get anything, keep clicking around with no response. Then all of a sudden all the clicks take effect and I will see the task manager menu open and close in succession real quick.
All in all it's a good device, great functionality, just a few quirks here or there. Maybe it's time to hard-reset or flash a new ROM that might solve some of these things, who knows.

Oh forgot, as for the camera lag with the low FPS in low light conditions, check out this thread:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=365345
HTH

thanks for that... the "trick" described in the first post does increase the response by 10 fps or so, but the thing is, the picture quality also goes down...its a lose/lose situation i guess lol...I also noticed that there is a new .dll fix on the HTC E-club, but only for the kaiser. I tried to login but it says theyre doing maintainance right now, so I can't check if there's anything released for the TC...even so I doubt there is
but my issue is, and always has been..why should i need to do all of these tricks and patches for a device that costs as much as the TC does? I shouldn't. No one should.
also another thing that came to my mind...people and HTC say this is a "business device"...so i was thinking, wouldn't business users want their devices to be MORE responsive than a media player / cool trendy "sexy" device?
I mean when you need to wait 5 seconds and tap the screen multiple times to play a music file, it's not really that big of a deal...it's an annoyance yes but it doesn't result in you losing work time..or a loss of productivity
but when you need to tap the X button 5 times to close out of a document and switch to your email...or taking notes and browsing web pages for work related stuff...or trying to switch between SIP's...and having to wait because the device lags worse than windows 95...it becomes a loss of productivity...
even if it's only seconds, those seconds add up, and the annoyances stock pile into one big ball of rage for me at least, heh.
I do admit that my own foolishness and quickness to buy a new device is partly to blame here. I should have looked into it more. But I also think that HTC holds a good part of the blame as well.
hopefully the geniuses here can come up with some good fast custom roms that will deal with these issues...i won't hold my breath waiting for this patch to come out from HTC at the end of the month. I'm doubtful that it will do anything at all.

Fuze--Gateway to an...iPhone?

Before I get started, please don't scream. I am just *waiting* for the douchebag assault to begin, because after all, this is an internet forum and it'll happen come hell or high water no matter what I say. This post is not for the douchebags, it's for the reasonable people who are willing to discuss, listen and talk in a rational way.
I got my first fuze the day before launch (November 10th), and out of the gate it was problematic. Now, I was and still am enamored by the feature set, and the hardware is amazing when it's working right. My first fuze locked up and crashed programs *constantly*. After a week and a half I exchanged it for another, and this was a better experience, but still flawed.
Fuze #2 never once locked up, but it did crash programs pretty frequently. Not every day and not every program and not even consistently, but it did so with enough frequency to be damn annoying. The AT&T software load, as everyone already knows, is complete ****. It makes a 528Mhz phone with 8 times the RAM of my old Wizard feel slower than the Wizard with a hacked ROM, and that's just sad. I've been using my Wizard (a cingular 8125) since launch, and I can honestly say that unlike most phones the experience only kept getting *better* as the hardware aged, and it was able to do so as a direct result of the fine folks of XDA who have cooked up some really amazing ROM's. The work you guys do is phenomenal and it only gets better as time goes on.
And so I loaded up a custom ROM from here on my Fuze. It was, to say the least, WORLDS better than the AT&T stock ROM. But it still had its annoyances. Some programs would still crash. There was still hesitation here and there when using the Manila 3D UI. Finding and acquiring software to run on it is a pain. Don't get me wrong--Windows Mobile has GOBS of great software available and I've blown hours upon hours finding it, playing with it, enjoying it, over the last 2 and a half years.
Of course, that's part of the problem--to get the really good stuff you have to search endlessly all over the web to find the really great stuff for WinMo. XDA is a terrific place because there is so much stuff discussed and linked to, but even here you have to trudge through miles of posts and it's a pain, plus there's the whole process of downloading, unarchiving, copying to the device, installing to the device--only to do it all over again when the next great ROM comes out. This isn't the fault of anyone here, but it's evidence of a problem that's grown beyond the community's ability to solve--the problem is with Windows Mobile itself and the infrastructure that does--or more accurately does NOT--support it.
Let me 'splain. When I finally had enough of my Fuze, I took it back to AT&T to find something else. I dicked with the Blackberry, I hated it. I've always hated blackberry, both from an infrastructure support side and from an interface side. So that was out. I've never been an Apple guy EVER. In college we had some piece of **** Mac's that were just miserable to use and I learned very well to hate them, so I hadn't even considered an iPhone.
And then I tried it. My first response, as an official Mac hater, was to find its flaws. The camera is mediocre (2mp? LAME!). But then, I have a REAL camera for taking any serious pictures (let's face it, no cell phone camera is going to replace a nice Canon or Nikon any time soon for high end photography). The screen resolution isn't as nice as the Fuze...yet it's still better than the Wizard was, and it's not so low that it ends the world. I hate that there are no hardware buttons except for Home, Power, Mute and the volume toggle, but then, the Fuze wasn't replete with buttons either and I'd already weaned myself off the Wizard's multiple buttons anyway. And it pisses me off that I can't use a friggin' MicroSD card to cheaply expand my storage.
But then I started to see what the device is really all about, and what really blew me away is how easy it is to use and to access a fat library of good apps, both paid and free. I don't even have to leave the device, I can browse it all straight from the phone, install it straight from the phone in a single step, and when I plug it into my PC it's all synced. When the next software update happens I just sync and everything I installed is put right back where I wanted it to be.
In short, I finally see why people are tripping over the iPhone. It's not the hardware, because let's face it the iPhone is outclassed in hardware by plenty of phones, including the Fuze. It's the interface, it's the software, it's the ease of use. And for me, at this point in my life where I'm trying to do more with my time than ever before, that makes it a great device choice for me. The iPhone, simply enough, will save me time and effort, and it enables me to do things I just can't do with Windows Mobile.
Now, my sincere hope is that WinMo 7 fixes these many issues. I hope it comes with an easy and fast UI. I hope the devices have multitouch screens. I hope there is finally an integrated backend infrastructure and an app store that nets easy access to both developers and consumers of applications and games. I hope it standardizes on a required minimum of built in storage but outdoes Apple by allowing you to expand it further with MicroSD (or whatever the hell comes next, but man do I hope NanoSD isn't next or I'll never be able to find my goddamn cards). And for goodness sakes, STOP vendors from loading the damn phones with all this bloat!
Compared to what Apple's done with the iPhone OS it feels like Windows Mobile is standing still, like Microsoft has dropped the ball and just stood there slack jawed as it rolled away. Maybe it's because they're so focused on kicking Sony in the nuts in the console wars, I dunno. All I can tell you is that what iPhone's software is today, WinMo's should have been a long time ago. The only reason it's survived this long is because guys like the geniuses on this forum have made it do things it was clearly never built to do in the first place.
With any luck I'll be trading in my iPhone for a WinMo 7 device, but I guess that remains to be seen. To everyone who's done anything for this community, I want to say thanks, because you made my enjoyment of my Wizard a true joy for almost 3 years.
Thanks,
Jason

I have mostly always used WM devices but in the mix of my many phones I have used both iPhones and I too agree that the interface is much simpler, easier to use, and direct, I also agree that certain apps specifically the games on the iPhone are uncomparable to the WM devices. Lastly, also think that the ease of app searching in the iPhone is the best, just browsing through the many apps is a joy.
With that said, using the iPhone is (to me) frustrating because most if not all apps crash, the web surfing is a pain because I remeber surfing and safari would constantly close. I traded my iPhone for the fuze and updates have done little to improve these problems, my wife still has the iphone 3g and I always have the same problems on her phone. In addition, I exchange my iphones multiple times because of these problem and they kept on happening. The only truly thing I miss from the iphone are the games and sometimes the appstore. The lack of multitasking is also horrible even by using the background tasking app when jailbreaking doesn't solve this dilema.

It really depends on what you need.
I honestly couldn't care less about the whole openness debate.
At least personally, I can jailbreak and get whatever (ok, maybe not) I want on an iphone.
The ui is much more responsive, and the screen is much larger.
BUT! I need physical keys, and that pretty much was the sole reason to not consider anything else.
Yesterday, while on the train, I was reading some stuff on Opera, while listening to music on Kimona, and typing away on Word, while swtiching between apps using Task Facade. Can I do this on the iPhone? Not as far as I know.
And about the larger screen, if I need to be typing frequently, the larger screen really doesn't benefit me since half of it will be filled with a virtual keyboard; what matters is a high res display. After comparing the two side by side, my choice was pretty clear.
Then there's another thing about the whole "responsiveness" debate. Honestly, at least with custom ROM's (which is really a bad excuse, since no one should have to do this to get past the minimum responsiveness), and running one app at a time, it's very snappy.
My point is, I find it inaccurate to state that the Fuze is a gateway to an iPhone without considering the target group and general purpose of winmo devices. Granted, more winmo phones want to hit the mainstream market, but let's face it, Fuze isn't targeted to hit any of the consumers out there. At&t did absolutely nothing to market it, and that really should be enough to invalidate the statement you provided. After all this is a forum where more technically inclined people hang around.

Wow, that's a lot of words. I'm surprised my ADD didn't kick in while reading it.
If you think that the iPhone will free you from crashes, think again. Yes, the interface is slick, but it is not the flawless stable system you see on the TV adds. I had the IPhone for a month before and returned it for the Fuze mainly because I got tired of Safari as well as any other memory intensive app constantly crashing.
The phone just doesn't have enough memory to be as good as it can be. My wife still has her iPhone which I recently upgraded to firmware version 2.2. This weekend, out of the blue, I asked her how it was performing. She replied "I just has to reboot the phone a minute ago."
I figure, if I have to deal with software lagginess and crashes, I might as well have a system that is accessible and customizable instead of one that is locked down. Oh, and the few extra buttons on the Fuze certainly do make a difference. But really, I find the Fuze with a new ROM MUCH MUCH more stable than the iPhone ever was.

Nice post, well thought out and honest. I, too, have a Fuze and am considering an Iphone. The bigger screen is a major factor; the Fuze screen is just so .. small! high-res is great, but pointless when you need to zoom in so close on things to read them that you might as well be running QVGA.
It seems I have a love/hate relationship with the Fuze, as many do here. One day, it drives me nuts -- Opera freezes up, scrolls and zooms in and out and behaves weird, the phone acts slow, bad GPS fix, and so on. I get frustrated and seriously consider returning it. Then, the next day it works like a dream! Quick GPS fix, opera works perfect, I discover something I did not know about before (i.e., circling your finger on a portion of a photo to zoom in right there -- cool!) and I would be sad to see it go.
I guess all we can do is be patient. As you said, other phones got better with age; I think it stands to reason that the same thing will happen with the Fuze. As better optimized web browsers get released (i.e., Fennec) and (hopefully) video drivers get updated, the whole experience should get better. If by some miracle we get WM7, who knows what that might bring. yeah, the hardware is frustrating -- small screen, weird buttons, no headphone jack -- but I think it is enough to deal with for now if we can get the software and drivers all optimized.

Thanks for all the great replies, guys. So far I have had the iPhone for just a shade over 48 hours, and I've updated to 2.2. I've experience no crashes yet, but I did need to reboot once after installing an app last night (weird, yet no biggie to me because I'm used to it in the Windows world).
I have to agree--I HATE that I can't run more than one app at a time on the iPhone. I don't know why they do that, but I can only presume that it's done that way in order to force memory to stay free so the OS remains quick and responsive. It's kind of a ****ty tradeoff IMHO, but at the same time...I'm liking the responsiveness and I *usually* don't do more than one thing at a time anyway. It's nice to have the option though.
By all means, I don't think Fuze is a waste at all (except in AT&T's horrible software load. What the hell are they thinking? Honestly they need to fire whoever builds their ROM's and hire somebody who does this as a hobby on XDA), and I think that when it matures it'll be damn difficult to beat. I fully expect WinMo7 to eventually arrive on it (barring some bizarre hardware requirements, but who knows?), but even if it doesn't I think the ROM devs around here will eventually harness this thing into a terrific device. Unfortunately I just don't feel like waiting around, because for my almost $400 out the door I feel I should have walked out of the AT&T store with a phone that blew the doors off most others without any need for a hack.
On the bright side, by the time the ROM's are really mature and crazy fast/stable, the Fuze will probably have dropped in price substantially
For those developing ROM's, some of my thoughts on UI are:
1. Larger buttons! Especially for closing apps and using drop downs, those tiny little default X's are miserable for finger access. Finger friendly is the way of the future.
2. Customize Touchflo. I've seen some slick youtube videos with guys doing very iPhone/Coverflowish stuff and it appears buttery smooth. Of course, I could never find where to get the software to try it out, but if it's doable, heck...do it
3. I dunno if this is possible, but how about setting up some sort of repository for free apps and building a thin client that could run in touchflo, connect to the server, and snag a list of apps available and maybe even install those directly to the phone. I don't see any reason not to steal the App Store's idea, it works well and it's a joy to use. Microsoft should have done this already
Just some thoughts!

I can relate to OP. I'm upgrading form a Wizard as well (T-Mo US MDA). While new ROM's certainly made my Wizard better, I can say that custom ROM's on it were not an absolute requirement. While I continued to be more amazed by my Wizard, I just continue to be a little less pissed off at my Fuse.
XDA is the ONLY reason I have not returned my Fuze. I'm finally back to a totally stripped ROM, with no fancy I wish I bought an IPhone TouchFlo Horse ****, and no AT&T application Douchebaggery.
OP, I feel you on the lack of buttons. I miss playing pocket Nester / GB on my Wizard. I think it says alot when it is totally outclassed and still sticks around as my "GameBoy".
I definitely have mixed feelings about the Fuze. I waited to buy this over the Tilt for the camera, and I have been somewhat impressed by it. I miss the Wizard's Keyboard layout and overall style, with the buttons NOT touching each other.

@Fatheadpi,
I can't agree more (though I am rather enamored with the iPhone's UI. It's not the animation and all that crap though, it's the sheer *speed* of it and ease of getting to anything I want to get to).
Fuze is an impressive piece of hardware, yet at the same time there are issues with it--primarily software--that are really hard to overlook on such an expensive device.

The iPhone has been around for quiet a while now, and has had 2 revisions. The Fuze is fresh out of the box, so making a comparison so early in it's release is a little judgemental. it is possible that alot of out problems can be solved by a nice ROM update (like video drivers). Or just out right fixed by custom ROMs here. if you think that apple listens to what the people want, just take a look at the cut/paste, or Video recording issues.
One of the "great" things about the iPhone is one of it's biggest weakness too. The app store, while its a one stop shopping for apps, is also controled by apple, and they are the final say on what kind of programs you are allowed to run on your device. You also can write new ones (think Schaps Advance config) you have to take what they want you to have and like it. If you try to break their rules, then you might find yourself owning a brick when you sync it.

I think you need to look at this in a little bit of a different light here.
Apple has for the most part stated that they are a software company; almost all of their efforts these days are portals to Itunes where Apple makes money hence the reason for lacking hardware but great UIs and access to Itunes. They make loads more money on Itunes than on hardware.
Looking at this from AT&T's viewpoint they make money on data plans, minutes, texting, basically anything crossing their network so these types of things work great on the phone.
A third party to all of this is HTC which has to make something attractive but gets no additional money at all after you buy the hardware.
So looking at it this way, it makes perfect sense why a pleasurable experience on a Winmo device is driven by the end user, in essence no one else is interested in your problem because they don't make money off of you.
So maybe some entrepreneur out there should figure out a nifty UI like iTunes but for Winmo where a user can buy a new ROM, or try out/buy some cool apps and so forth, figuring out a cool way to upgrade the device.
The real truth here is that Apple owns everything about the iPhone, there is no one entity that owns Winmo devices so individuals end up taking over and this creates multiple and sometimes confusing paths to good stuff.
-Tim

jasongw said:
(except in AT&T's horrible software load. What the hell are they thinking? Honestly they need to fire whoever builds their ROM's and hire somebody who does this as a hobby on XDA)
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If they don't do that, we may have to pay more for the device. So I really don't mind all the bloatware (you get what you pay for )
3. I dunno if this is possible, but how about setting up some sort of repository for free apps and building a thin client that could run in touchflo, connect to the server, and snag a list of apps available and maybe even install those directly to the phone. I don't see any reason not to steal the App Store's idea, it works well and it's a joy to use. Microsoft should have done this already
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http://getgecko.org/
I think these guys are trying to do just that. The problem is, ironically, but obviously, the openness.
Then there's this. It's from handango. Never tried it, probably not even close to what apple has. It's not the lack of it, but the way it's presented, which is precisely why--and you nailed this point--iphones sell. Of course, as I mentioned previously, most winmo users are at least prosumers, so they know what to do without all the oversimplifications.

Jblakk--
I get what you're saying about comparing the two, but I have to disagree. The Fuze is brand new, but essentially Fuze is to, say, an HTC Wizard as iPhone 3G is to iPhone. That's to say, it's not new, it's merely a refinement of what's come before.
And Fuze gets a lot right, I know, just as iPhone gets a lot wrong. Yes, it's judgmental to point out the strengths and weaknesses of the fuze, but I don't see anything wrong with that. Judging is a natural and appropriate action for humans, and I'd argue we should judge more, not less (but in a rational way, not an emotional "I'll kill you for disagreeing" way). That's philosophy though, and I'm just talking phone/PDA's
I realize that Apple has final say on the app store, but from what I can see it appears that they aren't being too tyrannical about the content. There are literally thousands of apps available, and so far I've filled up 5 screens worth of apps I wanted to try out. It was easy to find them, easy to install them, and for the ones I didn't quite like, it was easy to kick them to the curb.
I have to say you're dead on about cut/paste and video recording. I can't even imagine how they left those out, especially cut and paste. I mean does it get any more basic than cut and paste? . Hopefully that will be resolved soon, I can't imagine it's all that complicated.
My point here has never been to say that the Fuze is super terrible and iPhone is the uber shizz; clearly both phones have their strengths, and both have their weaknesses. Right now, based on my experience with both and coming off the still-my-overall-favorite-phone-to-date the HTC Wizard, I feel that where the iPhone leads is entirely in the execution of the software. Windows Mobile 6 is barely a step above 5 (in fact, it IS 5 if you get right to it, 5.2.xxxx) and it's really showing its age.
I think a reasonable argument could be made that the Fuze hardware deserves better than what Windows Mobile's current incarnations have to offer. However, as I mentioned, I do think the miracle workers at XDA will pull some sweet tricks out of their hats eventually and make the fuze pretty damn sweet. And if Microsoft follows its usual pattern, WM7 will finally catch up to iPhone's OS and probably refine and improve on it in various ways. It'll be exciting to see what happens on that front

@g2tl-- Gecko seems like a great idea, I really hope they make some good progress. I hadn't heard of that before, but I'll definitely be following their progress from here on out! Thanks for the heads up!
As for getting what you pay for, that's almost always true but I think there's an exception here. On the fuze you're getting more impressive hardware, but you're getting a much less polished piece of software that's quite outdated and difficult to manage by modern standards. Now, I'm a 13 year IT geek (good lord, did I just admit that?) so I've never been afraid of getting my hands dirty, and goodness knows it's a miracle my old 8125 survived all the flashing I did to it, but at a certain point it's nice for a device to just *work* without a lot of dicking around with it.
I am sure WinMo will eventually be that software, probably with WinMo7. It's just not there yet, and I think the real shame of that is that an awesome device like the Fuze (or any flavor of the touch pro for that matter) won't really be used to its full potential because the software is lagging so far behind the device itself.

Tim, I do get all that, and you're exactly right. I also think that's where a great many of the problems with WinMo come from, the fact that carriers can just shovel piles and piles of junk onto these phones just drags down the user experience.
I'd say maybe Microsoft needs to put out their own phone where they can present a coherent experience (their new Xbox Live interface is friggin' awesome), but then I'm sure we'd have a lot of crying foul from assorted carriers and competitors who cry monopoly. There's probably no easy solution from a development and implementation standpoint, but from a consumer standpoint it's actually fairly easy: go buy the device that offers what you need.
Right now for me--and surprisingly so because I never imagined buying one of these until 2 days ago--that device appears to be iPhone. I truly do hope for a WinMo7 device or even a Fuze WinMo7 hack that'll win me back eventually. I still love the dark side

jason - Suggestion for you, as this is finally what has made me very happy with my Fuse. Probably a little too late as you're running an I-Phone.
Think about this: You were a Wizard user. When you upgraded, you probably wanted a better camera, more power, and 16 gig storage options. You were probably running an OC'd cooked rom WITHOUT TouchFlo.
Here's my suggestion.
Starting from scratch, I have the phone I wanted after about an hour's work. TouchFlo 3D just continues to piss me off. The only nice things about it were the picture viewer, weather, and the music setup. However, I have music controls on my BT Headset, and I'll probably go find the HTC Music player / plugin tonite. I have HTC picture viewer installed in an out of the way place for the rare times I look at my pics. I'll figure something out for the weather option, tho I've lived without it for a number of years.
Thinking about it, it all kinda makes sense. PC users build PC's and use Windows because we know exactly what we want and how we want it. We don't put flashy, pointless bull**** interfaces up front to slow things down. (at least pre-Vista, anyways.)
Still tho, the Raphael and Diamond needed a different control pad and button set. Macs were built around the idea that an average idiot (no offense to MacFags) could just use something. PC's are designed with a bunch of buttons because PCFags will customize that to do awesome stuff.

jasongw said:
Jblakk--
I get what you're saying about comparing the two, but I have to disagree. The Fuze is brand new, but essentially Fuze is to, say, an HTC Wizard as iPhone 3G is to iPhone. That's to say, it's not new, it's merely a refinement of what's come before.
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Click to collapse
I'll have to dissagree with you there, as the hardware is so different, it's a copletely different device. I came from the Hermes(8525) and it's not even close to the same(and I did love my heremes)
And Fuze gets a lot right, I know, just as iPhone gets a lot wrong. Yes, it's judgmental to point out the strengths and weaknesses of the fuze, but I don't see anything wrong with that. Judging is a natural and appropriate action for humans, and I'd argue we should judge more, not less (but in a rational way, not an emotional "I'll kill you for disagreeing" way). That's philosophy though, and I'm just talking phone/PDA's
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Click to collapse
I think what I said just came out wrong. I think over-critical would have been more accurate. I think that we look at things in perspective, and make decisions based on our needs. While I know that neither device is perfect(what one is?) we just need for figure out what job does the job best for us, and makes us happy.
I realize that Apple has final say on the app store, but from what I can see it appears that they aren't being too tyrannical about the content. There are literally thousands of apps available, and so far I've filled up 5 screens worth of apps I wanted to try out. It was easy to find them, easy to install them, and for the ones I didn't quite like, it was easy to kick them to the curb.
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Don't forget that not all of thoes apps are free, and you don't get demos of stuff try make sure they work as advertised. I have friends that nickle and dime themselves too death due to the app store. I don't think the idea is bad idea by any means though.
I have to say you're dead on about cut/paste and video recording. I can't even imagine how they left those out, especially cut and paste. I mean does it get any more basic than cut and paste? . Hopefully that will be resolved soon, I can't imagine it's all that complicated.
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iPhone users have been asking for thoes 2 functions for well over a year, and they all say...Its comming soon...for a year now. I'm guessing that Mr. Jobs doesnt want you to have it for some reason.
My point here has never been to say that the Fuze is super terrible and iPhone is the uber shizz; clearly both phones have their strengths, and both have their weaknesses. Right now, based on my experience with both and coming off the still-my-overall-favorite-phone-to-date the HTC Wizard, I feel that where the iPhone leads is entirely in the execution of the software. Windows Mobile 6 is barely a step above 5 (in fact, it IS 5 if you get right to it, 5.2.xxxx) and it's really showing its age.
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Click to collapse
I won't dissagree with you on that. 6.1 was a bigger improvement that 5 to 6 was. Hopping that 6.5 will get the boost it very much needs. And don't ever forget that Touchflo 3D was HTCs way of hiding the windows interface, due to its seriously unfrendlyness. But also remember that iPhone was geared towards the casual Multi-media use, and the Fuze is aimed towards the average power user.
I think a reasonable argument could be made that the Fuze hardware deserves better than what Windows Mobile's current incarnations have to offer. However, as I mentioned, I do think the miracle workers at XDA will pull some sweet tricks out of their hats eventually and make the fuze pretty damn sweet. And if Microsoft follows its usual pattern, WM7 will finally catch up to iPhone's OS and probably refine and improve on it in various ways. It'll be exciting to see what happens on that front
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Click to collapse
I will agree with that. But just like the arguement over PC vs mac, it's not a fair comparison. It needs to be Dell XPS vs Mac, or Toshiba Satalite vs Mac. There is no such thing as a PC (technicaly a Mac is a PC too...Personal Computer). And Apple has the unfair advantage of only writing software for papriatary hardware, where Microsoft has to write software for millions of combinations of hardware, and in the end it's all about drivers.
In the end, see what serves your needs best, but I do not think that the Fuze will drive anyone to be iPhone users. With the Fuzes lack of advertising, and the Apple's Mind numbing advetising, I think that people that look at the fuze as an option already have the mindset that the iPhone just will not do what they need.

In advance let me say thanks to everyone for having such a civil discussion. I am thoroughly impressed and appreciative. I was *sure* somebody would have come in with the raving and yelling attitude by now and I've happily been proven wrong. I REALLY appreciate that; flame wars got old and boring a loooong time ago IMHO
@Fatheadpi,
Thank you for the suggestion. At some point in the future I hope to get another fuze or perhaps its successor. Of course, by then I hope for WM7 and an actual answer to the ease of use features in iPhone (I'm still a PC guy at heart, I'd love to see Apple get ***** slapped at their own game). Suffice to say, unless AT&T cleans up its act (which I doubt, they never did do right by Wizard users and it was only XDA cookers who made that device be all that it could be) I am sure that the Fuze will continue to be a "Cooked ROMs only" device.
@JBlakk,
Wow, what a nice response . I won't go point by point, but I think you've made a lot of good points, and I agree with many. Hell, I still build my own PC's (I've only recently started using Vista though, and I mostly hate it so I turn off almost all the fancy crap).
Also I think you definitely have a point about the marketing aspect and who the fuze is (or at least ought to be) targeted toward. I'd make the argument though that if AT&T is targeting the "power user" they still missed the mark with the software by loading it will all that ridiculous bloat.
I like the appearance of TouchFlo3D, but man the performance is just sad, especially on such a high end piece of phone hardware. My biggest gripe is absolutely in the software execution, but I am, to reiterate again, quite confident that as the ROM's mature and the cookers get their heads around the nuances of the phone itself, we'll see some amazing performance from Fuze.
Thanks again guys! It's been loads of fun
Jason

I'll be civil...
I understand what you are saying, if you just want something that works 99.9% of the time the iPhone is the perfect phone for you. I however like to play with things and no how much I deny it I like finding problems and fixing them, and Microsoft's products are perfect for that. Also the open source-ness of M$ is another thing that draws me to their products.
I was worried, being an open Apple hater(I have nightmares about getting iPhones for Christmas...), that AT&T would not carry another phone with a touch screen after they signed the deal with Apple. The Touch Pro is/will be perfect for me in that sense. Apple is flashy and pretty, but extremely constrained in the sense that Apple likes to keep it's followers in a choke hold, but that's my opinion too.
I also like the keyboard of the Fuze/Touch Pro/Raphael(Why do they need so many names for the same device?!)
So in short I'm not going to flame you because you chose an Apple product over a M$ one, I honestly don't care as it's your money and your decision. I think the latest Touch Pro's are better than the first release models though...but that could be just speculation.
((Also the lack of cut/copy/paste is an EXTREME drawback for me))

I also went to the darkside (iPhone) after returning my fuze. I have said it in previous posts and to my co-workers that have both iPhones and WinMo devices - it. just. works.
Being an engineer/sys admin by trade I love to tinker and tweak and rip apart and put back together stuff, but in this case the effort it took to get the Fuze/TP to a usable state [for me] wasn't worth it. I am at the stage of my life where I don't have the time to play (7 mo. old will do that to ya).
I wouldn't kick a free or deeply discounted Fuze/TP out of bed, lol, but as many have said, it's what you want out of a device and I needed my device to work out of the box.
That said, so far so good. About 2 trouble-free weeks with the iP3G.
I still come here daily to keep up on the HTC WinMo happenings to satiate my tinker desire. But the iPhone is here to stay - or until WinMo 7 drops at least.

I'm getting tired and disappointed of WM

Ok, where to start? Well from the beginning of my short smartphone experience. My first phone was a Motorola A1000 with UIQ. The phone where not as good from the beginning but after some turns with the ROM cookers it became a pretty descent phone. It had GPS, a great app for mp3 (PowerMP3) and for that time an Opera webbrowser that worked on the most common sites.
Ofcourse the webbrowsing was slow and the GPS took ages to get a fix and the sound from PowerMP3 started to glitch when I had it in the background and did other stuff. But hey, I accepted it because it started to get old.
So, anyway. When the Xperia was annonced I found it as a great replacement. It was a smaler phone, it had full qwety, highres screen, wlan, gps, radio and finally 3.5mm jack. A friend had the first tytn phone (my first contact with XDA) that i thought was a bit slow. But still, it was an old phone and with the specs of the xperia I thought that WM would run smoth as butter.
Now, I have had the phone for 6 mounths and the honymone is over. Ofcourse the ROM cookers here have done an amazing job to speed it up. But still. Sometimes the phone is less responsive than my old UIQ phone. There is still no fully working webbrowser, the GPS does somtimes have problem to get a fix (not as long as 10 minutes though) and loading times eg. for showing pictures, open menues is the same as on my UIQ or worse.
I am getting tired of the chronic statment soon... the next version of Opera, when skyfire is ready, the next version of windows mobile, the next radio or ROM upgrade, the next version of manila etc.
And still, phones with weaker hardware is working smoth as silk with ROMs from the manufacturers like samsung, Apple or OS like Android. Why can't MS make an OS like that? It dosen't have to be "cool" as iPhone. But why not make it run smooth with less loadingtime?
As it is now, I can't lend my phone to a friend if he/she whan't to test it or browse a webpage without having them to wonder why nothing happens if they press this or that because of the loading times. "How could you pay that much for this phone?" And, no, I can't answer that anymore.
Ok, now I have let off some steam. And I havn't eaven mentioned the worthless casing on the phne that have cracked for the second time... ohh, now I have
Peace over and out

I wrote almost the same words today on a Dutch forum. I have my Xperia now for about 7 months. Out of the box it's a piece of sh.t. Thanks to the cooks it's an acceptable phone now, but my next phone will be no WM phone anymore. Thinking of buying the new Iphone when it comes out. Better/faster hardware doesn't say anything when WM is the OS.
Iphone here I come. If you can't beat them join them...

Although I do like my iPhone, I HATE apple. Going from my kaiser to the iPhone was a huge change. Mostly good, but putting up with apples bs is obnoxious. They are so restrictive. I miss the days of rom flashing, changing web browsers, media players, notes applications......just to try something new. With my iPhone, I can only change what apple approves, and that is very little. I am eagerly awaiting the Pre's release. Currently I pay AT&T 135.00 as month for two iPhones with the cheapest plan possible. We have the 1st gen iPhones with 20.00 a month data plans. I have no desire to pay 160.00 a month for the new iPhones when released. Two pre's with sprint will coat us 100.00 with my corporate discount.
I plan on checking out windows mobile again when wm7 is releases but not before then.
Jeff

take a break play with the iPhone and crapberry you'll be back within 4 months. Honestly, it took stupid applications like iBeer to make me want to go back to windows mobile. When I walk into work people with iPhones and BB's ask me why my Fuze or my Tilt looked more appealing than others they have seen. Simple answer, "I got no luck in the game of popularity therefore I spent over a year learning of the capabilities and the love what goes into windows mobile, outside of microsoft". Personally, I think they will never understand but when you show them easy written applications like "positions" and pdf reader "hustler" or "playboy" magazine, for some reason they believe you are a porn star, cause its that real...
edit: actually iPhones in Boston are played out so if you have a nice looking Tilt or Fuze it will get you ass. However, you may have to pay for an expensive hotel and some cheap ass beer too go along but that is how i roll. Nobody stops my floss.

Well, iPhone is no option for me. I like the modding that was possible with both my UIQ phone and WM. Android is what I now think will be the smoothest and more loadingtime free OS. I'm sad that it isn't possible to have android on my xperia. To me the xperia actually is the most good looking phone on the market today.

I could'nt say that my experience with winmo was bad. I had always enjoyed tweaking, ROM flashing, looking and exploring for new and better application software, trying out all kinds of different user interfaces, playing with registry, etc. I had always thought of winmo as the best thing since slice bread - until I tried out iPhone. To be honest, I had always brushed off iPhone as just a toy, as something that I would give up a week after owning it, etc. Had always been annoyed with people arguing that iPhone is better than winmo device.
Then, one day, an XDA-developer forumner whom I respected a lot made a post saying that he had already switched to iPhone and has never looked back. That was when I first took notice, and started to research more seriously about what iPhone could do. I thought all along that I would have to give up all the cherished applications on my Athena if I switch, so I first spent time finding out what applications are available on iPhone. At that time, I could not find any credible solution on GPS navigation and Office document editing. I also thought that I'm too addicted to my Tengo software keyboard to want to give up. In addition, I read a lot of posts saying there are serious 3G reception issues. So, based on that, I decided to buy a Touch HD instead.
I was estatic with Touch HD and made recommendation to a few person who too made the purchase. It was'nt perfect for sure. The response time was inconsistent at best, music playing stutters, album was slow and often causes freeze, camera capture taking too long to save and come back, picture is poor under poor lighting condition, etc. But I was still perfectly happy, perhaps because over the years, I had developed such a high tolerance for imperfection.
The iPhone purchase was probably an impulsive purchase because it was selling cheap. To be honest, the first day when I used it, I did'nt like it too much. Many things I did'nt know how to do. Did'nt like not being able to multitask, copy and paste, no video, no MMS, and the user interface looked set in concrete and unchangeable.
But then, I learned to jailbreak the phone. It was difficult in the begining because I did'nt know of a good forum to get help from, after all, I'm a winmo and XDA person, right? After that, I'm now really happy with iPhone.
- at the system level, my iPhone multitask, I can do global cut and copy, send MMS, do video recording, customise my springboard (desktop) to my heart's content, easily get music/movies without any restriction whatsoever .
-In general, my replacement application programs are far far better than the equivalent that I had on my HD.
- I can find lots of useful applications (don't listen to those who tell you that you only get iBeer and iFart from Applestore) from both the applestore and Cydia store. Many of those programs are simply not available on the winmo platform.
- VOIP calls that I make with my iPhone is far clearer than with my HD. No echo. No breaking up of voice. No need to use headset.
- All my videos play smoothly now. No more synchronization problem between video and voice. No more dropped frame.
- Camera captures really fast, including in poor light. It does'nt have autofocus and flash though, so this is still an area that iPhone should improve on. On the other hand, the camera softwares are excellent. You can change the contrast, exposure, and sharpen the picture after they're taken, and this compensate somewhat for the poor picture.
- I like the way it notifies me of any update to my applications, and they are all free. Even if I had previously installed and deleted an application, it tells me that I had already made the purchase (even the free ones are considered purchased) and would let me download it again free (even if now it is no longer free).
- Love the responsiveness. Even with very tiny area, such as the little link on XDA site that brings me to the first unread post, could be easily activated without zooming it.
- Consistent user interface is another really appealing aspect of it. On my HD, I had programs from Vito Technology, Resco, SPB, and they all look different. Some have full screen and have their own finger friendly keyboard, some still use stylus. Not a serious issue, but it was really good to have consistent UI.
What I still don't like about iPhone?
- I don't like the fact that I cannot change battery in the middle of the day. With my HD, I carry a spare battery because one isn't enough for me.
- We still have no credible GPS software on the iPhone, at least not outside US. In US, G-Map on iPhone looks like a pretty good GPS software that works without internet connection, but outside US, there is'nt any that can operate without internet connection. Even if there is, I am not willing to use anything not as good as TomTom 7, which among other things give me overspeeding, red light and speed camera warnings. I still use my HD to run TomTom, Garmin and Mapking (because TomTom does not have maps in all the countries that I visit).
I had been keeping an eye on Palm Pre and Google Phone. Google phone could be manufactured by any hardware manufacturer so in that aspect it has a better chance of becoming popular amoung the hardware suppliers at least, unlike iPhone which nobody else are allowed to manufacture. However, the applications on both Google Phone and Palm Pre are too limited at the moment. Also, because of the absence of control and openness, I think the user interface on google phone is going to varry greatly from application to application, so you will not have the same consistency as iPhone application. Palm pre's inabiilty to operate as a world phone bugs me, in addition to the fact that it is still the first generation phone, which is bound to have much unresolved issues.
WM7 is of course not to be discounted completely. It is supposed to be revolutionary. Like using the camera to detect your hand gesture (wonder what it is like to operate the device in the dark and impact on battery though. Also wondering how would devices without front camera deal with it.). However, application development would have much to catch up. The biggest obstacle I think is the fact that MS tries to make the OS backward compatible. There are just too many different hardware out there by now. Pity the developers on winmo now. If they develop anything now, it would have to be redone when WM7 is available. I get the feeling that many are developing for iPhone for now, hence the explosion of software availability there.
I hope this thread is a place to share information, not to bash winmo in anyway. So, let's be courteous to each other and refrain from putting down winmo platform.

Paitor said:
Well, iPhone is no option for me. I like the modding that was possible with both my UIQ phone and WM. Android is what I now think will be the smoothest and more loadingtime free OS. I'm sad that it isn't possible to have android on my xperia. To me the xperia actually is the most good looking phone on the market today.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I can do lots of modding with iPhone too, and much of those modding are not available with WM. You can even make it look like a PC if you so incline. But you must jailbreak it first in order to do it.

redbandana said:
take a break play with the iPhone and crapberry you'll be back within 4 months. Honestly, it took stupid applications like iBeer to make me want to go back to windows mobile.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
For me, the more time I spend with iPhone, the more I grow to like it. It is amazing to find how customizable the phone is. It is also amazing to find that one single button in iPhone could so easily let you switch between active tasks, terminate program, launch most recently used programs, and with the power button do screen capture, do soft reset, etc.
Not all applications are entertainment in nature. You can get serious medical applications, enterprise resource planning type applications (including SAP and Quickbook), office productivity applications (Pocket Informant on iPhone is far more useable than the winmo version), etc.
The only really lacking area is GPS software, but that's likely to change with firmware 3.0 that removes the artificial restriction apple set.
Otherwise, WM applications are falling behind that for iPhone. There are many reasons why this is happening. Some winmo developers have discussed the reasons for this on this very interesting thread here:
http://www.4winmobile.com/forums/ed...s-mobile-apps-falling-behind-iphone-ones.html

jeffla said:
Although I do like my iPhone, I HATE apple. Going from my kaiser to the iPhone was a huge change. Mostly good, but putting up with apples bs is obnoxious. They are so restrictive. I miss the days of rom flashing, changing web browsers, media players, notes applications......just to try something new. With my iPhone, I can only change what apple approves, and that is very little. I am eagerly awaiting the Pre's release. Currently I pay AT&T 135.00 as month for two iPhones with the cheapest plan possible. We have the 1st gen iPhones with 20.00 a month data plans. I have no desire to pay 160.00 a month for the new iPhones when released. Two pre's with sprint will coat us 100.00 with my corporate discount.
I plan on checking out windows mobile again when wm7 is releases but not before then.
Jeff
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I too feel that Apple is going overboard in the type of restriction it places. That's why I jailbreak my phone, to free myself from all the restrictions.

This is an article related to the current thread that makes some interesting reading.
http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-18438_7-10151228-82.html

Great essay you did there Eaglesteve. I know some things about jailbreak and what comes with that because of a friend that have one. But to me, the hardware limits on iPhone is to big. The important things too me that iPhone lack is, qwerty, MicroSD-slot, changeable battery, radio (I'm lazy sometimes), photo led (great as flashlight) and a good GPS.

eaglesteve said:
I too feel that Apple is going overboard in the type of restriction it places. That's why I jailbreak my phone, to free myself from all the restrictions.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hey, if I jailbreak, can I drag and drop my music files? I hate having to sync my music files via itunes, or Media Monkey. I just want to drag a few songs over before work and just be done with it.

jeffla said:
Hey, if I jailbreak, can I drag and drop my music files? I hate having to sync my music files via itunes, or Media Monkey. I just want to drag a few songs over before work and just be done with it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yes you can. You can also name the music file anyway you want rather than having it renamed by ITune. The music file could be copied to your own sub directory.

Paitor said:
Great essay you did there Eaglesteve. I know some things about jailbreak and what comes with that because of a friend that have one. But to me, the hardware limits on iPhone is to big. The important things too me that iPhone lack is, qwerty, MicroSD-slot, changeable battery, radio (I'm lazy sometimes), photo led (great as flashlight) and a good GPS.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Thanks Paitor,
One factor that puts iPhone on the negative light is the fact that no hardware vendor other than apple through Foxconn is allowed to make the handset. This is both good and bad. Applications are easier to test and bugs more easily fixed. Also, having just one company controlling it nobody could pass the bug to another company if the graphic accelerator does'nt work (wink wink). You also don't have the risk of undersized hardware specification and slow device. On the other hand you don't get lots of choices in handware specifications such as those you've outlined.
Actually iPhone hardware contains the FM receiver all along, but disabled at the moment.
I believe Tom Tom will soon be available once OS 3.0 is released.

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