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Car dock = Desktop dock; so audio out possible?

I amazed I'm the first one to notice this, so I'm probably not. I took apart my car dock and found the PCB inside is almost identical to the desktop dock (see photos). The upshot here is that I would strongly guess that you could easily solder on parts to either one and add things like:
- An audio out jack to the car dock (!)
- Volume up/down switches to the desktop dock
- Speakers (small ones!) to the desktop dock
- An external mic to the desktop dock
Most of that doesn't seem so great, but adding an audio jack to the car dock would be fantastic.
Pictures 1 & 2 are the desktop dock, 3 & 4 are the car dock.
Notice the unused pads on the car dock PCB (pic #4) for a headphone jack at bottom left.
Notice the pads for the speakers in pic #2 (desktop dock) at the top.
Also in in pic #2 you can see where the volume rocker would connect at bottom left and mic at bottom center.
Finally the tiny circle near my thumb in pic #4 looks to be a micro antenna jack, hard to tell for sure.
JB

That's incredibly lame of google to not put the audio out when it's the same pcb.

James Bell said:
I amazed I'm the first one to notice this, so I'm probably not.
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Good find.
Along a vaguely similar vain, I suggested over here a method of using a Desk Dock as Car AUX input. It has certain benefits over non OEM accessories that do similar. I am in the process if fitting a USB power supply to my car. Once that is done I will fit the Desk Dock semi permanent out of site as a BT AUX in feed.
Of course getting an AUX jack in the Car Dock would be much better.

next thing would be prying off the metal cover and see if they have the same circuitry inside. Then if yes all you have to do is solder a 3.5 female jack on it and voila'...

fan or heatsink?
cool beans!
i wonder if you could install a copper backing plate connected to a heatsink (like ones you can buy for ram) instead of the plastic piece to help with the high heat issues some are having...hmm...
seems like there's enough room

Dude, love how you tore the desktop dock apart on your desk and the car dock in your car.

Since the pcb's are the same size, couldn't you swap them out, cut a hole in the case and then you'd have audio out on the car dock?
=D

@muncheese
Yah I think so. Problem is it'd recognize it as the desktop dock...errr and you'd lose the speakers and volume rocker from the car dock.
My motivation to solder on an old headphone jack is low - my '01 325 doesn't have an aux in to plug into it! Maybe I'll do it anyway if I can find the right jack.
@SPAS79
I started to pry off the metal top but ran out of time to fool with it. I want to look up the chips and see if any of their outputs can be used to trigger the mute line on my stereo.

Well the speaker wouldnt matter since it'll be going through the car audio system, same for the volume, just control the car stereo volume. =)

I took off the metal cover on the desktop dock, picture below.
There's a daughtercard called an NF2301. Made by nFore and (poorly) described here:
http://www.nforetek.com/products.htm

Adding an Aux out on the Car Dock will place it on the Dock itself.
Ideally for neatness, it would be on the base near the suction cup. I suppose you could run a short cable along the chrome arm and situate the jack on the base near the USB outlet.

Chrome arm should be hollow as it already has power running through it. Might be enough room to run a small cable through it.

This is very exciting
Keep us updated on what happens with you!
Bump!

this is fantastic news. I actually have an audio socket left over from my desk dock audio switch project. If someone wants to buy me another car dock or can prove that soldering on a jack will work then i'd be willing to rip it apart and do what google SHOULD have done in the first place!

I cant wait for some chinese company to make this for the nexus:
http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.19747
I have one currently that I used with my iphone and while it felt cheap.. It did everything:
held my iphone in place in the car
charged and did audio out with single sync cable
audio out can be routed either to the 3.5mm aux line AND the built in FM transmitter
remote (which stopped working after 1 week)
Mostly I like the fact that it mounted/charged/audio-out my iphone all at once with 1 cable and was only $12 shipped.. I would love something similar for my nexus

If all the talk about the 2.2 update enabling the FM transmitter is true. It would explain why the car dock has no audio out.
And if Google keeps the Nexus One updates on the same track it should be arriving next Tuesday.
First Tuesday of every month has had a blog update and the second of update of each month has been on or around the last Wednesday.

sweltzin said:
If all the talk about the 2.2 update enabling the FM transmitter is true. It would explain why the car dock has no audio out.
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I have seen no talk of enabling an FM TRANSMITTER. Just rumours of them enabling an FM receiver, which would be no solution for the car dock.

Even if it did have an FM transmitter, I would prefer the audio out on the dock. Less hassle, better sound.

logger said:
I have seen no talk of enabling an FM TRANSMITTER. Just rumours of them enabling an FM receiver, which would be no solution for the car dock.
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It's both.

muncheese said:
It's both.
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Thats a fairly vague comment.
Yeah the radio is a transceiver. Thats fairly obvious. It is after all a cellphone.
But are you saying Google will be activating the FM transmitter in such a way as it will transmit audio to a car FM radio? Or are you just saying the FM radio fitted to the phone is a transceiver.

Car Charger - Interference with Audio?

I got one of these yesterday:
http://www.amazon.com/Google-Nexus-One-Retractable-Charger/dp/B002W52DVK/
I was playing some audio through the aux jack connected to my car's speakers. As soon as I plugged in the charger, the audio was distorted. It sounded very electronic/mechanical; hard to explain. As soon as I unplugged, the audio went back to normal.
Is this how all car chargers operate? Or is this one defective?
Does anyone know of a similarly priced car charger that doesn't have this issue?

your car audio system and charger are sharing ground. I don't recall the exact solution...so search forum... solution is on the forum.
EDIT: I just remembered... change the ground on your car stereo.... just attach it to some other metal piece.

arkavat said:
change the ground on your car stereo.... just attach it to some other metal piece.
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Sorry, attach what?
Not too knowledgeable about car stuff.

Paul22000 said:
Sorry, attach what?
Not too knowledgeable about car stuff.
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your car audio system should have bunch of wires in the back. Look in the user manual, one of them will be "ground wire". It is either attached to the "ground" wire coming from your car or just attached to nearest metal piece. usually a screw etc... in the vicinity of the audio system. Just remove the wire and attach it to some other metal.
If you don't want to mess with your car audio, do the same thing to charger outlet. try to locate the wires coming into the charger outlet. One of them is ground. change it's location.
If you are not too comfortable with this, just as your car mechanic to do it. it is fairly easy if you already know which wire is what... so it should be an easy task for him.

So all car chargers with the N1 will behave this way?

Paul22000 said:
So all car chargers with the N1 will behave this way?
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Lord I hope not, I was in the market for a good car charger too..

ChillRays said:
Lord I hope not, I was in the market for a good car charger too..
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the problem is not with N1 but rather with the electrical arrangement in a particular car. I do not have this problem,but, unfortunately for paul, all chargers will cause this interference.

Isolate the Ground!!! It's not rocket science, and it sure as hell ain't the n1....

So there's definitely 0% chance that it's the charger and getting a different one wouldn't make a difference?
I tried just plugging in the power, without any audio playing, and the speakers play a lot of metallic interference garbage. Unplug/plug in, plays weird sounds every time.

Paul22000 said:
So there's definitely 0% chance that it's the charger and getting a different one wouldn't make a difference?
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Try this to know for sure:
1) don't connect charger, and play music through car speakers
2) use charger and play music through battery powered speakers
Both should turn out ok.
For information about ground loops see this pdf:
www.ebtechaudio.com/findloop.pdf
I tried just plugging in the power, without any audio playing, and the speakers play a lot of metallic interference garbage. Unplug/plug in, plays weird sounds every time.
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Click to collapse
A ground loop is simply an antenna formed by the cable from ground, to your phone (charger), to your radio, and back to ground. The noise you're hearing when you don't play music is random noise from any and all radio waves that might pass through this giant loop antenna.
Think of all the stuff that emits RF noise: ignition/sparks, power supplies, phones, BT, wifi, electrical mains and poor connections. All these faint signals are picked up by your giant ground loop and amplified by your radio.
There are also some audio ground loop isolators, but I don't know how well they work.
www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062214

I know this thread is old and dead, but I just wanted to thank arkavat and xdZKu7 for their answers. I've had interference since I got my car and plugged my DHD into the aux in, and it's been driving me mad for ages. The sound is crystal clear until I plug the charger in and then I get some nasty alternator whining. I searched and found this thread last night, today I went with arkavat's answer and I found the cigarette lighter's ground wire and earthed it nearer by, now the alternator noise is gone almost entirely. I'm going to look into what I can do to reduce ground loop antenna noise also, although it's bearable for now. Thanks guys.

I bought the "official" OEM HTC micro USB CC C200 at amazon.
And it works fine. No problems with audio and navigation so far.

Car Dock disassembly - adding a LINE OUT

So I got my car dock, I knew it didn't come with a line out, but figured I could add one. You all know how aewsome it would be to have a line out jack on this thing rather than the stock "speakers". Well good news, I am going to make myself a line out and will post pictures about how I am doing it.
I have the thing taken apart right now, and just need to go buy a 3.5mm audio jack.
So, my plan will be to still use the cardock for phone and stereo profiles, just using my car stereo's aux in rather than the dock's weak speakers. I'll leave the microphones on the dock intact, just not the speakers. The good news is the speakers are removable, making room for a 3.5mm audio jack. the bad news? the jack will have to be on the dock body, not base. I'm sure if you try hard enough, one of yoiu will find a place in the base for a jack, but for now, I'm going to add one to the body, on the bottom (in portrait mode).
There you have it, I'll be able to make the dock a semi-permanent fixture in my car and never have to plug in an audio cable to get my music through my car speakers.
Pictures to follow soon, I just couldn't wait to start this project, and get some reactions / moral support.

Someone else looked at doing the same thing a while back. I seem to recall they came up against several hurdles. It is not as clear cut as it seems.
On the face of it- it would seem the approach you are taking will necessitate you having your car stereo ON and AUX selected any time you need to take a phone call. Might be a bit of a pain when you are for example, listening to the car radio and your phone rings. Or if the phone rings and your stereo happens to be turned off.
I find the inbuilt speakers totally adequate for Phone Audio. This arrangement has the benefit it being standalone and means N1 Phone Audio works regardless of current car stereo state. I send the Media Audio to my car stereo via BT though, as it sure benefits from the better speakers quality and auto pauses the Media when the phone is in use.
Good luck with it and do a search for the other thread as there is some good info info in there.
PS take a look through this thread http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?p=6427057&postcount=39
Might save you some heart ache

I only found that thread, after i had my dock quite disassembled and did a google search for the chipset under the RF shield. :/
I don't use my car's head unit for anything but aux audio, radio is dead to me, so I shouldn't have any problems. The hurdle is the audio being fed to the speakers do NOT share a common ground. They utilize an active-balanced system. both leads are hot, common to themselves.
Now it seems as I will have to choose which channel gets full audio and just bum 'common' from the dominant channel. or i come up with some way to convert two independent balanced audio feeds to a common ground.
I have had no luck looking up the NF2301 daughter board. I was hoping to find a schematic detailing the line level outputs, but no go. I did think it was interesting that the car dock and desktop dock share the same PCB, too bad there is no detailed schematic yet...

FAILURE - giving up
So, after creatively placing some resistors and whatnot, I got a decent line level with common ground, that won't blow up the built-in amp. However, as pointed out in that other thread, there is some BS DSP that notches the lower frequencies out of the signal to the speakers. I got it all setup in my car, plugged in to my aux-out, and it sounded like i was using the voice profile. I took the aux cable and plugged into my headphone jack on the phone, and all the bass came through just fine.
So, for now? The audio out on the car dock is meant for the crappy on-board speakers. not real ones. Sad...
Now, it seems the only way to get an aux out of the cardock would be to swap the board with a desktop dock, and cut a hole for the aux jack, or just do some more soldering to not modify the casing of the cardock.
Too bad, I had it working, but the damn DSP chip/amp puts out ****ty audio quality

Alternatively, at the point you have a desktop dock.... Instead of butchering it for the board, Just install it somewhere out of site in your car and connect it to your cars Aux-in with a 3.5mm lead. Thats what I have done. Works well. Only downside is I still have to manually connect the desktop. It does not autoconnect to deskdock when N1 is placed in cardock obviously.
Too bad your set up did not work for now.

kajer said:
So, after creatively placing some resistors and whatnot, I got a decent line level with common ground, that won't blow up the built-in amp. However, as pointed out in that other thread, there is some BS DSP that notches the lower frequencies out of the signal to the speakers. I got it all setup in my car, plugged in to my aux-out, and it sounded like i was using the voice profile. I took the aux cable and plugged into my headphone jack on the phone, and all the bass came through just fine.
So, for now? The audio out on the car dock is meant for the crappy on-board speakers. not real ones. Sad...
Now, it seems the only way to get an aux out of the cardock would be to swap the board with a desktop dock, and cut a hole for the aux jack, or just do some more soldering to not modify the casing of the cardock.
Too bad, I had it working, but the damn DSP chip/amp puts out ****ty audio quality
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Maybe it's using a low bitrate A2DP bluetooth transfer. Either way, bluetooth will be lower quality than a direct plug.

khaytsus said:
Either way, bluetooth will be lower quality than a direct plug.
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Click to collapse
I believe this is the likely reason why Google didn't include an audio out port on the dock. Yes, it's on the desktop dock, but that's really all the desktop dock handles, whereas the car dock has a mic as well, etc.

I would be interested in detailed disassembly instructions if you wouldn't mind.

wonkotron said:
I would be interested in detailed disassembly instructions if you wouldn't mind.
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detail isn't really necessary, it's pretty straightforward.
-get a knife and use it to peel off the black rectangular sticker on the front of the dock. it's right where the battery on the phone is when it's docked.
-undo the 4 screws behind the sticker
-pop the two halves of the phone-holder part of the dock apart. if you can't get them apart with a bit of pulling get your thumb nail or a knife in between the two halves.
that's about as far as you need to go to get to the useful bits.

jamezracer said:
Stuff
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Thanks! I'll see if I can figure anything out.

I had this same idea when I first got my car dock, but I couldn't convince myself to hack my new dock. Instead I hacked an old stereo Bluetooth headset with the same mod and it works perfectly.

Don't ignore this post...
Ok So I took a dive in to it. I disassembled my dock (yes even after reading all that I could find on the internet, including this thread), but in disbelief I wanted to find out for my self. I soldered a head phone jack to the speaker wires, and thought I had something good when connected to my computer speakers. (it worked and I was surprised). But after hooking it all up in the car and actually hearing the quality, I was sorrily disappointed.
Major failure, the sound is terrible. Not tolerable at all. Comparable to scratching fingernails across a chalk board and trying to listen to some good tunes at the same time from an FM radio with very poor reception.
Heed my warning, do not attempt to mod the dock for an FM out, it will not work.

Car charger causes audio whizzing

Anyone know how to relieve the whizzing I hear when playing audio through the headphone jack while charging through the cig lighter? You know, its kind of a high pitch whine that goes up and down in pitch with rpms. Is there a filter? My jack is connected through the back of the head unit via USA spec pa12.
Sent from Tapatalk 2.

74Eldo said:
Anyone know how to relieve the whizzing I hear when playing audio through the headphone jack while charging through the cig lighter? You know, its kind of a high pitch whine that goes up and down in pitch with rpms. Is there a filter? My jack is connected through the back of the head unit via USA spec pa12..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Buy one of these to cut out the electrical interference.

Thanks. Yeah I actually took the big leap and googled it after I posted this. Guess i was just bored initially. I ordered something similar. Its called a ground loop isolator and they generally run $10-20.
Sent from Tapatalk 2.

Ground loop isolators are kind of a bandaid fix for a larger problem with installation and actually slightly lowers the output of your input device. The noise is actually caused by a difference in voltage between your audio system and the lighter port you plug your charger in to. It can usually be fixed by changing the cigarette lighter ports ground and power wires to the same power and ground wires the radio uses (If the noise is only heard when listening to audio from the phone, and not when listening to AM or FM). External amplifiers complicate maters significantly, but generally, ground all audio devices at the same point, and keep power and signal wires separated by at least 6"

Faulty unit - no sound?

I have an Xtrons PF75ATTAR and it has developed a fault. It boots up fine and everything works as it should however there is no sound.
I have reinstalled the original Audi head unit and this works fine so the fault seems to lie with the Xtrons unit.
I contacted Xtrons and as I am not the original purchaser they can offer no support at all and suggested I buy a new unit. It is just still within 12-months warranty so I am trying to get hold of the guy I bought it from to see if he can arrange an RMA, however I need to try other options just in case I can't get hold of him or he won't cooperate.
I am not much of an electronics person (I have a soldering iron and a multimeter....) so I am not sure how to troubleshoot this.
The unit has a 'dongle' between the audio out on the rear of the head unit. This is encased in heat-shrink and I am not sure what it does, but is inline with the audio outs so I am wondering whether it might be this that is at fault?
Any help is appreciated
Andy

ADB100 said:
I have an Xtrons PF75ATTAR and it has developed a fault. It boots up fine and everything works as it should however there is no sound.
I have reinstalled the original Audi head unit and this works fine so the fault seems to lie with the Xtrons unit.
I contacted Xtrons and as I am not the original purchaser they can offer no support at all and suggested I buy a new unit. It is just still within 12-months warranty so I am trying to get hold of the guy I bought it from to see if he can arrange an RMA, however I need to try other options just in case I can't get hold of him or he won't cooperate.
I am not much of an electronics person (I have a soldering iron and a multimeter....) so I am not sure how to troubleshoot this.
The unit has a 'dongle' between the audio out on the rear of the head unit. This is encased in heat-shrink and I am not sure what it does, but is inline with the audio outs so I am wondering whether it might be this that is at fault?
Any help is appreciated
Andy
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hi there, do you have any pics of this "dongle"?
I'm just wondering if the speaker outputs have been converted to a low level output so they can be used as a line-in on an amp. If this is the case then the speaker outputs will have been spliced and effectively diverted from the loom which would result in no sound until you either use the converted outputs into a separate amp or reconnect them to the original wires so that you use the standard speaker outputs from the head unit.
I may be well of the mark here but seeing as I have just completed an install in my friends van with this same "spliced" setup, its worth checking out.

sirleeofroy said:
Hi there, do you have any pics of this "dongle"?
I'm just wondering if the speaker outputs have been converted to a low level output so they can be used as a line-in on an amp. If this is the case then the speaker outputs will have been spliced and effectively diverted from the loom which would result in no sound until you either use the converted outputs into a separate amp or reconnect them to the original wires so that you use the standard speaker outputs from the head unit.
I may be well of the mark here but seeing as I have just completed an install in my friends van with this same "spliced" setup, its worth checking out.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I didn't take these pictures myself, however this is the dongle.
It was working fine for about 6-months and I haven't changed anything. I got in the car one day and there was no sound. After about 20 minutes I started to hear some pops and feint audio. I stopped the car and turned the ignition off for a minute or so and then started it back up and the sound returned. The next time I got in the car there was no audio and stopping and starting didn't fix it.

ADB100 said:
I didn't take these pictures myself, however this is the dongle.
It was working fine for about 6-months and I haven't changed anything. I got in the car one day and there was no sound. After about 20 minutes I started to hear some pops and feint audio. I stopped the car and turned the ignition off for a minute or so and then started it back up and the sound returned. The next time I got in the car there was no audio and stopping and starting didn't fix it.
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Ok, that's not what I was thinking....
That looks like the breakout for your line-out, do you run an amp with your head unit or just use the internal amp?
Your description of pops and feint audio with eventual lack of audio sounds like something has blown

sirleeofroy said:
Ok, that's not what I was thinking....
That looks like the breakout for your line-out, do you run an amp with your head unit or just use the internal amp?
Your description of pops and feint audio with eventual lack of audio sounds like something has blown
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My car has a Bose amp (factory fit).
Any ideas how to troubleshoot?

ADB100 said:
My car has a Bose amp (factory fit).
Any ideas how to troubleshoot?
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Ok, I'm not familiar with Audi setups but I'm guessing the Bose amp still requires a 12v remote to switch it on, usually a blue wire from the head unit. Could be worth checking that for 12v on ignition.
My PX5 unit effectively has 2 blue remote wires, one called "ANT" and one called "AMP SWITCH" or something like that..... might be worth swapping those over if you have two like I do.
How is audio supplied to the amp? Is it via the line out RCA's or via the loom/harness?
Another thing to look at, and I know this will sound super silly but on my unit a couple of the connections on the rear are similar to one another and it could be relatively easy to plug something into the wrong port. I did it and wondered why my USB didn't work! I'm sure this is not the case but still worth checking.

sirleeofroy said:
Ok, I'm not familiar with Audi setups but I'm guessing the Bose amp still requires a 12v remote to switch it on, usually a blue wire from the head unit. Could be worth checking that for 12v on ignition.
My PX5 unit effectively has 2 blue remote wires, one called "ANT" and one called "AMP SWITCH" or something like that..... might be worth swapping those over if you have two like I do.
How is audio supplied to the amp? Is it via the line out RCA's or via the loom/harness?
Another thing to look at, and I know this will sound super silly but on my unit a couple of the connections on the rear are similar to one another and it could be relatively easy to plug something into the wrong port. I did it and wondered why my USB didn't work! I'm sure this is not the case but still worth checking.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The audio is supplied to the amp via a quad-lock connector. So the audio from the rear of the unit connects to this dongle on one side, out the other side of the dongle are four female RCA's. These are connected to four male RCA's that connect to the quad-lock connector. There are two blue wires labelled 'AMP-CON' that have male/female push-fit connectors and these are connected together - I am guessing this is the 12v to switch the amp on? There is also another blue wire labelled 'ANT' with a push-fit connector. This is connected to a green wire coming out of the antenna facra cable.
It was working and nothing has been disturbed so I am fairly sure its not been wired up incorrectly. I think something has broken...
I'll check with a multimeter that I am getting 12v on the AMP-CON cable from the back of the amp first.
Andy

OK, so armed with multimeter I decided to have a play with this earlier. It does appear that the AMP-CON wire is not delivering 12V and therefore not turning the Bose amp on.
If I disconnect the 12v wire from the dual fakra antenna adapter the sound kicks in, however the radio reception is dreadful. I believe the 12V wire is there to power an antenna signal booster integral to the car. If I measure the voltage with the 12v wire disconnected from the fakra adapter its 10.something volts, if I measure it with the 12v wire connected its 0.something volts. Is it likely this fakra adapter is faulty? It looks like a passive component?
Cheers
Andy

ADB100 said:
OK, so armed with multimeter I decided to have a play with this earlier. It does appear that the AMP-CON wire is not delivering 12V and therefore not turning the Bose amp on.
If I disconnect the 12v wire from the dual fakra antenna adapter the sound kicks in, however the radio reception is dreadful. I believe the 12V wire is there to power an antenna signal booster integral to the car. If I measure the voltage with the 12v wire disconnected from the fakra adapter its 10.something volts, if I measure it with the 12v wire connected its 0.something volts. Is it likely this fakra adapter is faulty? It looks like a passive component?
Cheers
Andy
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Ah good, I'm glad that you've narrowed it down! As far as I'm aware, these wires are 12v switched and are there simply to provide the signal for whatever device to turn on. If the AMP-CON wire has no voltage, you may just be able to use the same wire you use for your Antenna. I have done this before where I used the 12v switched wire from an antenna in the boot instead of running a remote wire the full length of the car.
I would be curious to find out why the AMP-CON wire does not supply voltage, it could be down to a broken wire somewhere or even a dodgy solder within the unit.

sirleeofroy said:
Ah good, I'm glad that you've narrowed it down! As far as I'm aware, these wires are 12v switched and are there simply to provide the signal for whatever device to turn on. If the AMP-CON wire has no voltage, you may just be able to use the same wire you use for your Antenna. I have done this before where I used the 12v switched wire from an antenna in the boot instead of running a remote wire the full length of the car.
I would be curious to find out why the AMP-CON wire does not supply voltage, it could be down to a broken wire somewhere or even a dodgy solder within the unit.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Hi, thanks for taking the time to help out. I don't think I described the cabling correctly. The AMP-CON and the ANT come from the same pin in the connector that plugs into the rear of the head unit (one wire comes out and then it splits into two and there is a bit of heat-shrink around the join. If I disconnect the ANT cable from the green wire that comes from the fakra adapter there is sound and the cable goes +10v. If I connect it back up there is a low 'thud' as it makes contact, the sound stops and the voltage drops to 0.something. It seems the fakra adapter is dragging the voltage down, hence why I think this adapter might be faulty.
Andy

I have the same issue now. We’re you able to resolve this?

I am also having this issue.. My HU turns on. Everything works perfectly... Just no sound. None at all. No factory amp. In a 2002 Silverado. I don't know if its the internal amp or what. Ideas?