Related
looks like this will get nasty
We always knew the Apple / Samsung lawsuit would produce some major fireworks, and Samsung just lit off a corker: the company filed a motion Friday night asking Apple to turn over the iPhone 5 and iPad 3 as part of the discovery process. Seriously! Samsung claims that it needs to see Apple’s future products because devices like the Droid Charge and Galaxy Tab 10.1 will presumably be in the market at the same time as the iPhone 5 and iPad 3, and Samsung’s lawyers want to evaluate any possible similarities so they can prepare for further potential legal action from Apple. It’s ballsy, but it’s not totally out of the blue: the move comes just a few days after the judge ordered Samsung to hand over pre-production samples of the Droid Charge, Infuse 4G, Galaxy S II, and Galaxy Tab 10.1 and 8.9 so Apple could determine if those products should also be part of the lawsuit and potentially file a motion to block them from the market.
Now, the key difference between the two requests is that Samsung had already announced its products, while Apple has maintained its traditional iron silence about future devices. But there’s some additional nuance involved as well, as well as some bigger-picture implications — let’s walk through the entire situation, shall we?
Last week, Apple asked the court to order Samsung to hand over samples of the Galaxy Tab 10.1, Galaxy Tab 8.9, the Galaxy S II, the Infuse 4G, and the Droid Charge so Cupertino could figure out whether they should be part of the lawsuit — and whether to ask for a preliminary injunction preventing Samsung’s products from going on sale.
The court sided with Apple, in large part because Samsung had already released review units and photos of everything listed. In fact, the ruling came just days after Samsung handed out thousands of Galaxy Tab 10.1s at Google I/O, so really the only unreleased product on the list is the Tab 8.9 — a product that was announced in March and has been handled on video.
The court imposed one important condition on Apple in order to protect Samsung’s competitive edge, however: only Cupertino’s outside lawyers are allowed to look at Samsung’s pre-release hardware, not anyone from Apple itself. (Of course, there’s nothing stopping someone at Apple from running out and picking up a Droid Charge or Infuse 4G at retail, but pre-production samples that come from Samsung under this order are protected.)
Apple hasn’t yet filed for that preliminary injunction, nor has it said it’s going to anytime soon.
Now, given that most of the Samsung products on the list were already either available or fully disclosed, it wasn’t surprising that Apple won — in fact, it’s more interesting that Samsung had chose to fight back on such a minor issue in the first place, since it had so little at stake. (And it’s also somewhat interesting that Apple even asked for Samsung’s products in discovery instead of just filing for an injunction from the get-go, since they had all been announced already.) It’s a tell: no little compromises means no big compromises are in the works. So now let’s step through Samsung’s motion to see the iPhone 5 and iPad 3 and try to get a sense of what’s actually happening in context.
Samsung’s asking for a court order requiring Apple to produce “the final, commercial versions” of the next-generation iPhone and iPad and their respective packaging by June 13, 2011, so it can evaluate whether there’ll be confusion between Samsung and Apple’s future products. If the final versions aren’t available, Samsung wants “the most current version of each to be produced instead.”
Samsung doesn’t actually know Apple is planning to release a new iPhone or iPad; the motion is based on “internet reports” and “Apple’s past practice.” Obviously this is a critical difference between Apple’s request and Samsung’s — Samsung had already disclosed its new products, and Apple didn’t ask for anything that wasn’t already announced.
Samsung says it has to see the next-gen iPhone and iPad because it believes those are the products that will actually be on the market against future Samsung devices, so it has to be prepared for Apple’s potential motion for a preliminary injunction. That’s kind of a stretch: Apple can’t really file for a preliminary injunction based on potential confusion with unannounced, unreleased products, so Apple’s lawyers will almost certainly focus on confusion with the company’s existing products.
Indeed, Apple told Samsung on May 23 that any potential motion for a preliminary injunction “would be based on products Apple currently has in the market.”
Samsung says that doesn’t matter because Apple tends to discontinue previous products when it launches new ones, and it has to be prepared for what might be in the market when and if Apple actually files its motion. This is also a bit strange, since Apple kept both the iPhone 3G and iPhone 3GS on the market after launching new models. You can bet Apple will point that out.
Samsung’s also promised to abide by the same rules as Apple — only its lawyers will get to see anything Apple produces, not anyone at Samsung. (Or us, unfortunately.)
Lastly, Samsung says “fundamental fairness” requires Apple to give up its future products, since Samsung had to do the same. Tellingly, Samsung doesn’t reference any precedent or law to bolster this line of argument — it’s basically just asking the court to be nice.
So that’s Samsung’s motion. It’s pretty strange, if you think about it: Samsung is arguing that Apple might file for a preliminary injunction, and that it might happen sometime after Apple might release a new iPhone and iPad. That’s a lot of assumptions — and Apple can basically kill this entire line of argument dead by filing for that injunction Monday morning and saying that Samsung’s already-announced products should be blocked from market because they’ll cause confusion with the iPhone 4 and iPad 2 for however many months remain before the new versions are released. Neither the court nor Samsung really need to see Apple’s unreleased products to deal with that. And even if Samsung wins, Apple will definitely appeal the decision, putting the entire case on hold while things get sorted out… a process that will almost certainly stretch past the iPhone 5′s expected release in the fall, rendering this entire argument somewhat moot. And what happens if Samsung eventually gets the iPhone 5 and determines that the Droid Charge infringes Apple’s patents and trademarks? Is it going to change the Droid Charge? The potential outcomes aren’t entirely favorable here.
So why is Samsung even pursuing this? I think it’s a calculated gamble for additional leverage. Apple and Samsung held negotiations for a year before giving up and heading to the courts, and I’m reliably informed that there haven’t been any substantive settlement discussions since Apple first filed its complaint. That means talks have been at a standstill for a long time now, and I wouldn’t be surprised if Samsung was trying to put some additional heat on Apple to try and kick negotiations back into gear. It’s an interesting and aggressive move in its own right, but it also highlights the fact that neither Apple nor Samsung have addressed the actual merits of their complaints in formal replies — this is a minor skirmish before the real battle begins. We’ll see if this sideshow accomplishes anything beyond clever lawyerly maneuvering, but for right now it’s clear that Apple and Samsung aren’t planning to back down anytime soon.
click here !!!!
Doesn't samsung give apple most of the iphones parts...
Sent from my SCH-I500 using XDA Premium App
Jmatch said:
Doesn't samsung give apple most of the iphones parts...
Sent from my SCH-I500 using XDA Premium App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
yup, I wonder if apple's lawyers took that into consideration before they brought up these charges
Wow Cheezynutz Nice long synopsis. Some of your ideas make sense about the tactics of these 2 companies, but here is the Gist of the whole thing:
Apple knows their market share is waning in the cell phone market so, trying to throw roadblocks is one tactic to delay the inevitable.
Apple has little chance to win this since the market that makes the difference is outside the USA It is all of the world and our court rulings no matter the outcome will have little to no bearing on that market. Compound that, along with some of the development problems Apple is having causing release delays (now 1st Q 2012) just translates into Android as a whole is like a Tsunami taking over everything. Beating on Samsung is nothing more than a side show, the real show is watching if Android consolidates their app market into more cohesive products and less version sensitive. That in itself will be the straw that breaks Apple's back. The hardware out there is not going to be the game changer at this point ads all of them are really very good.
Legal wrangling is not going to change any of this dynamic....... so to me I think Samsung actually wins all because the Apple legal team made the original demand to have access to Samsung products.......... Just like a chess Gambit Losing a piece early ends up giving you a winning position in the long run. Apple's legal team fell for it.... too .........And That is the most amusing part of all this....
Jmatch, yes samsung makes some of the components as does Foxconn (China) but I believe the final assembly is done elsewhere. Samsung pretty much has a lock on amoled
Great posting thanks !!!
That's the irony in this all, Samsung is actually apples provider. Lol and apple goes and sues them, that's really a dumb move on apples part.
Sent from my GT-I9000 using XDA Premium App
I bet Samsung loses this one. IPad 2 was launched last month and Samsung is asking for non announced products, apple may release a IPhone 4S instead a IPhone 5, both are 5th generation. While Samsung products were announced and being released.
the fight between these 2 COs will never end.
Jmatch said:
Doesn't samsung give apple most of the iphones parts...
Sent from my SCH-I500 using XDA Premium App
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The SoC's Apple uses are done on Samsungs Fab process just like their own, it's a different market from phones to phone parts.
lol x10
It is called discovery, right?
Apple products are very similar to previous versions so I doubt Samsung will have anything to gain besides annoying Apple. If it wasn't for the iPod touch I wouldn't even have anything to do with Apple.
Apple are arrogant regarding these kind of matters. "I have the genius I have the power" ... but that power without the manpower, the raw materials, the technology ... is nothing.
Meanwhile Apple products are churned out in Chinese factories, with poor pay and appalling conditions for the assembly workers.
It must be a relief for them to know that Apple have such a big legal team watching their backs. Oh, wait...
DirkGently1 said:
Meanwhile Apple products are churned out in Chinese factories, with poor pay and appalling conditions for the assembly workers.
It must be a relief for them to know that Apple have such a big legal team watching their backs. Oh, wait...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Samsung is out of Korea, and has shops in Korea and China. I don't think the conditions are that much better, plus it's foxconn that assembles the products. Apple only pays for the assembly. There really isn't a lot in this world anymore that isn't made in Chinese factories, with poor pay and appalling conditions for the assembly workers...
Well topic/discussion purposed is Samsung's muddled delivery of ICS part of a larger rumoured back lash from manufacturers whom seem to be upset at Google for three reasons? First is Google’s acquisition of Motorola mobility apparently still doesn’t sit well with OEM's, the discontent has been amplified by reason number two. Some still don’t buy the party line of patent purchase only. This seems ungrateful from an outsiders point of view should this speculation hold true.
See such an article here:
http://www.androidauthority.com/google-motorola-deal-android-manufacturers-73966/
Second is Google trying to execute more control as many in blogs and tech articles have suggested Google should. This has been to address the issues of diversity and “fragmentation” that Google has faced criticism for. To what degree is Google executing control still remains to be seen. On a side note I and others have suggested the OEM’s give a stronger and narrower focus with fewer new devices but more polish and support.
Third is that Google with Android has not shown the preferential treatment the big players would have preferred; allowing smaller brands to gain ground and market share using this open platform. Brands like Archos, ZTE, and Huawei. Also allowed ASUS to gain a foot hold in the mobile market, ASUS who now seems to have a strong relationship with Google.
Samsung’s fudged ICS upgrade alone may mean nothing. But with HTC recent delivery and overhaul of ICS, combined with Sony decision to possibly hold ICS upgrades because it feels they miss the mark of quality could be indications of such unrest with the Manufacturers is more than just rumours. If such unhappiness is present and being actioned or plotted that’s where things turn interesting or concerning.
Many would think this unwise considering the lack of success with Manufacturers own proprietary OS’s. Nokia's Symbian slowly lost out, Bada is nowhere near the success Sammy had hoped for, despite cited as being more popular at the beginning of this year than Windows Phone. Meego didn't see much of a life.
Let me hear what you have to say on this topic
I think regarding the purchase of Motorola, it is definitely seen as simply a patent buyout. There are plenty of rumours of them already trying to sell the hardware side of Motorola.
Gaining 17,000 (or was it 12,000) patents is going to be a very good thing for manufacturers, knowing that they are much less likely to be sued with the added protection from the extra patents. However, if rumours are true and Google is looking to sell to Huwaie (?) then that will be another manufacturer up there all vying for a shot at the big time. The good thing is competition breed competition, so we will see devices continuously being updated and bettered, whereas the iPhone will not see this at such a rate.
I think Google trying to take a bit more control over Android is overall a good thing, even if manufacturers may not like it so much because it means it is harder to put out the cheaper handsets that have been selling so well.
siravarice said:
I think regarding the purchase of Motorola, it is definitely seen as simply a patent buyout. There are plenty of rumours of them already trying to sell the hardware side of Motorola.
Gaining 17,000 (or was it 12,000) patents is going to be a very good thing for manufacturers, knowing that they are much less likely to be sued with the added protection from the extra patents. However, if rumours are true and Google is looking to sell to Huwaie (?) then that will be another manufacturer up there all vying for a shot at the big time. The good thing is competition breed competition, so we will see devices continuously being updated and bettered, whereas the iPhone will not see this at such a rate.
I think Google trying to take a bit more control over Android is overall a good thing, even if manufacturers may not like it so much because it means it is harder to put out the cheaper handsets that have been selling so well.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So far Google hasn't appeared to have had much influence on Motorola, many because it hasn't been fully approved/finalized. Oddly enough the hold up is China. The strength of the rumour Google selling the Hardware division to Hauwei is the ability to capitalise on the lucrative Chinese market where Android already is dominating.
Time will tell about the patent side, although no evidence is apparent that supports its more than a patent purchase. We'll have to see who gets the next Nexus smartphone and tablet.
Samsung has released a new flagship smartphone, the Galaxy S3, including voice control, wireless beaming of content and exclusive apps, as it aims to consolidate its position at the top of the mobile sector.
The S3 has a super AMOLED 4.8in screen, larger than its predecessor the S2, with an 8 megapixel rear camera and 1.9MP front camera which offers "intelligent camera features" that the company says will adapt to what it sees you doing.
The phone runs on Google's Android 4.0 (Ice Cream Sandwich) software, but has a number of Samsung additions – including voice recognition and eye tracking.
The phone will go on sale on 30 May in the UK, with Orange and Phones4U already lined up to sell it. No price has yet been given. It will go on sale in the US this summer. Samsung said it will go on sale with 296 carriers in 145 countries. It can connect at "4G" speeds in compatible countries.
"S Voice" can respond to spoken orders such as "wake up" when its screen is off, "snooze" for an alarm, or to play a particular song, change volume settings, and take pictures. It also responds to gestures, so that lifting the phone to the face while sending a text message will dial the recipient's number instead.
Samsung has also souped up Google's Android Beam (which can pass data such as business card details) so it is capable of sending a 1GB file between two S3 phones in three minutes, or a 10MB file in two seconds by touching them together.
It comes in a 15GB or 32GB version, though the company said a 64GB model would come soon. Buyers can get an optional wireless charging pad, similar to that offered with the now-defunct HP TouchPad last year.
At 4.8in, the screen size is only just below the minimum 5in that most analysts class as a tablet – indicating Samsung's confidence that top-end users will want larger screens. The first-generation Galaxy S in 2010 had a 4in screen; the S2, a 4.3in screen.
The company sold an estimated 44m smartphones across its entire portfolio in the first quarter of 2012, more than any other company. It dominates the Android sector too, selling around 50% of phones on a platform which itself makes up 50% of smartphone sales.
Jason Jenkins, editor of CNET UK, said: "The Samsung Galaxy S3 is a cracker of a smartphone that makes the iPhone look a little like yesterday's model. It cements Samsung's place as one of the leading phone manufacturers and really puts the pressure on Apple to come up with something different for its next iPhone later in the year.
"It's also starting to look like this will be a two-horse race – Samsung and Apple fighting it out for the number one spot with everyone else left to pick up the crumbs. HTC, Sony, BlackBerry and Nokia are the ones with the real work to do."
Ian Fogg, an analyst at IHS Suppli, said: "What's striking is that Samsung is focusing on software and the experiences, more than the hardware (although that is excellent too). Features like Pop over, social tag, and S Voice all aspire to differentiate from the opposition through the user experience that Samsung's software customisation delivers.
"Samsung have been leading up to this for a while, but this is the first time they've led their product positioning on user experience and software."
Francisco Jeronimo, IDC's smartphones analyst, was downbeat, saying: "It is not an eye-catching device that will overwhelm consumers."
He noted that analysts had not been given the chance to try out the voice control in pre-release demonstrations of the phone. Of a brief test, he said: "Overall, [it] seems very similar to Siri, but my first impression was that is not as well integrated with the phone as Siri is with the iPhone."
Carolina Milanesi, smartphones analyst at the research group Gartner, said that Samsung was looking for ways to remain ahead of rivals in the Android space, as well as Apple.
"They need to push the boundaries in order to remain ahead," she said. "It will be interesting to see how many of these new features [in the S3] will be open to developers so that they can take advantage of them in their apps."
However, if developers start to target Samsung APIs for apps, that could potentially split the Android platform still further beyond the individual versions produced by Google – and would also tend to increase Samsung's control of Android.
Such an "embrace and extend" manoeuvre would build its control of the platform, where it already presently has half of worldwide sales and is the biggest profit-maker.
Jeronimo observed: "Samsung definitely embraced Android, and is extending it. We shouldn't also forget that Samsung has a quite opportunistic approach to market trends.
"If Android is now the new kid on the block that can best contribute to its success, they will invest and nurture it to maximise the opportunity. But if the trend changes (and they are very good at anticipating that), they will also change the platform they embrace in the future."
But, he added: "It is clear that Samsung has no other strong options at the moment."
No price was announced, though Milanesi suggested that it would be priced similarly to the Google-branded (but Samsung-made) Galaxy Nexus, released last October, and that prices of the year-old Galaxy S2 would be cut to boost Samsung's already dominant share.
Milanesi was generally impressed with the device, though with some reservations. "The design is much improved, and despite the fact that it is still plastic it feels much less cheap than the Galaxy S2 and the Nexus," she said.
But she thought the S Voice control was less convincing: "It came across as a little gimmicky when I played with it. But to me the main issue is that these features are quite buried in the device, so might not be that obvious to consumers. S Voice is not as complex as Siri – more like voice activation for simple commands."
Overall, she suggested: "I think Samsung has similar challenges to Apple but with a less convincing overall package and a weaker brand."
But Fogg suggested that the real problem would be for other companies. "For Nokia, this must be deeply concerning," he said. "One of Nokia's stated reasons they opted for Windows Phone was because they believed that it would be impossible to differentiate using Android.
"Samsung is showing with the the Galaxy S3 that it's perfectly possible to innovate with Android software. In fact, Android is enabling faster innovation than any handset maker has managed with Windows Phone."
But the new Galaxy S3 could also pose problems for the smaller players in the Android space, Fogg suggested. "Samsung's marketing spend and brand awareness are second to none. This combination of marketing spend and channels will cause serious problems for smaller handset makers such as HTC, LG and Motorola."
Jeronimo warned that Samsung needs to consolidate its position: "Samsung needs to come up with unique features and not to catch-up once again with other vendors. What is there that's completely unique on the S3 that we haven't seen on other devices? Maybe slight differences on the features, but nothing disruptive.
"They entered a new era. The only way to succeed is to set the pace of innovation. I believe that's exactly what they want to do, but they still suffering from the 'follower-syndrome': to improve what others created. That's why consumers will compare the S Voice to Siri and not the other way around."
If you're going to copy/paste an article that someone else wrote, I believe common courtesy would be to cite the source. Also, what is the point of starting a thread like this? There are already a ton of other GS3 threads, why not post your OWN opinions in one of those threads instead of starting a new thread with someone else's words?
All that said, I don't think Sammy is going to dominate anything with this phone, it is downright hideous. I really hope the US variants look a lot nicer.
Like I'm sure many of you did, I read a TON of reviews before buying the Infinity. I mean I read and re-read almost every english site out there that had gotten their hands on a pre-release version a month or so before the device came out (and videos too!). All of these glowing reviews seemed to reassure me that I was making the right decision and amped up my excitement and expectations. But when I got the tablet I was really disappointed about the speed, stuttering, and lagging both while browsing and the device itself. I've upgraded to .26 and have been VERY happy with it since. I'm not complaining about the device or asking how to make it better. I love my tablet and can't wait to rock some custom roms!
My point is that everyone here noticed the problems almost immediately after opening the box. Lately I've been thinking about the inconsistency between the reviews and the initial release of the product and was wondering if anyone else noticed this and is now either more skeptical of review sites, or (especially after some of the debacles with Asus Device Tracker, the Unlock Tool Serial Issue, etc) if there is more going on behind the scenes with Asus.
I remember reading reviews for Motherboards a few years ago and while ASUS has always been one of the top players it seems that other entrants are doing just as good if not better. Other users were noticing the same trend in innovation and frankly quality. I applaud Asus for venturing out into new product lines, but I get this nagging feeling that they're really not doing the best they can and I'm surprised no reviewer called them out on it. I used to be a huge brand champion for them, but I might be slowly losing it....
Just something I've been thinking about and decided to share.
I know exactly how you feel. I have noticed absolutely raving reviews for hardware that was less than overwhelming out of the box before, but the past few year, the number of times I've noticed significant discrepancies between the reviews and the actual buyer's user experience far more often, it seems.
I'd imagine that either the manufacturer is buying off the reviewer (I know several hardware companies only make their products available for review on the explicit notice that only positive aspects are to be referenced, or that the review overall must at least be positive), or that they send off devices that have been pulled inside out by the engineers and have been tweaked to hell (and back), even as far as swapping out components. This isn't so hard to do when you haven't even settled on an actual end-product design.
I know that there's alsways a negative bias on the user forums (like XDA, for example), but the positive review bias is putting me off even more.
Excellent thread.
I wonder about this too, take the Prime...that device was virtually broken out of the box. How could any reviewer not mention the constant ANRs with the web browsing, slowness when installing anything and broken bluetooth?
My Infinity has been great right out of the box. So, no, it doesn't have any impact on my perspective since most of the reviews are in-line with my experience.
The Prime is altogether different, though. It had some clear problems that were broken at the hardware level, so it seemed like someone should have called it out much more quickly.
I would expect the manufacturer to more closely QA a unit they knew was going to be a hardware review unit, so minor flaws that are due to poor QA (a dead pixel/light bleed/etc) I would NOT expect to be called out by most reviewers. But a design defect as glaring and fundamental as WiFi and GPS iisues the Prime had? Not so much.
I expressed the same thoughts back in February with respect to the original prime:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showpost.php?p=22396949&postcount=7
Good thread!
The reviews for me add a lot of confusion as I'm sure happens to most.
As a long time home PC builder I got mad at Asus years back because of
some serious issues with their motherboards. So I've always just stepped
over the brand until recently. Asus seems to have changed or maybe it's
just hardware advancements that have become common.
We have a couple of other tablets and I've always thought they we're a hassle
to use in most cases. I've wanted a 10.1 tablet for a couple of years, yet wanted
to wait for some vast hardware improvement. That's where the TF700 comes into play.
I bought this thing for the inside first, quality second, reviews third Asus name last.
I dunno what will happen maybe Android 4.1 will give all the tablets wings...
Thats OK said:
The reviews for me add a lot of confusion as I'm sure happens to most.
As a long time home PC builder I got mad at Asus years back because of
some serious issues with their motherboards. So I've always just stepped
over the brand until recently. Asus seems to have changed or maybe it's
just hardware advancements that have become common.
We have a couple of other tablets and I've always thought they we're a hassle
to use in most cases. I've wanted a 10.1 tablet for a couple of years, yet wanted
to wait for some vast hardware improvement. That's where the TF700 comes into play.
I bought this thing for the inside first, quality second, reviews third Asus name last.
I dunno what will happen maybe Android 4.1 will give all the tablets wings...
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That won't happen until CM18 - Redbull
But you hit on exactly what I was getting at with the motherboards. Innovation and quality are not always the same thing. I ended up with a Gigabyte board and was very happy btw.
To be honest I think that consumers in general are ok with sub-par build quality though. As long as something works and isn't absolutely terrible most people are cool with it. Basically as consumers we allow companies to get away with it because we still buy the products. It's a vicious cycle.
To be honest I think that consumers in general are ok with sub-par build quality though. As long as something works and isn't absolutely terrible most people are cool with it. Basically as consumers we allow companies to get away with it because we still buy the products. It's a vicious cycle.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I also think that consumers (Americans in particular, myself included) tend to be incredibly price conscious and this has been further exacerbated by both the world economy and the pace of technology. So, the past decade or so, this has really accelerated.
As you note, nowadays, poor build quality is not preferred but it is highly tolerated... probably because the item was viewed as a "good deal" and we know we're just going to buy a new one and literally scrap the old one in just a year or two. We are not buying things with the intent to keep them for years or call a "repairman" if they break, like people did with TV sets in the 50s and 60s.
I have a Moto Droid 1 that was just released from it's 2 year contract in Jan and I've known people who have upgraded phones four or five times since I've owned mine. It's nuts. I'm finally going to replace it because the volume button broke but I found myself half wishing it wasn't so sturdy when I see everyone with their shiny new phones. It's hard not to fall into the rampant consumerism that helps fuel this negative quality trend.
wolfman87 said:
That won't happen until CM18 - Redbull
But you hit on exactly what I was getting at with the motherboards. Innovation and quality are not always the same thing. I ended up with a Gigabyte board and was very happy btw.
To be honest I think that consumers in general are ok with sub-par build quality though. As long as something works and isn't absolutely terrible most people are cool with it. Basically as consumers we allow companies to get away with it because we still buy the products. It's a vicious cycle.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Chuckle OL
"CM18 Redbull"
You may have actually tagged a future version!
Gadget reviews on the Internet are on the whole quite poor. There are a lot of factors that most users here could add to.
- they're all tied into an endless consumer release cycle that has to gear up every few months or year depending on the vendor. In that sense they're part of a big ball of constant marketing, hype and desire that people and places like here feed into (I'm guilty!)
- the explosion of 24hr tech coverage on the Internet has all these gadget sites competing for page views, advertising and even access from the very companies they're assessing.
- the gadget "journalists" are constantly switching to new devices, never living with it before they are pressured to judge it for an article that will likely never be updated but always searchable on the net. How many tablet reviews have you seen where someone is paging through home pages as they state how fast or slow a device is? Useless.
-it's true you see more negatives on XDA as far as quality control, but you also see more unfounded hype for new or unreleased devices because people want the next new thing or to feel like their emotional or financial purchase is worthwhile. I trust net reviewers when they uniformly say a device is mediocre (ie Note 10.1) because you know it had to be bad if it sucked in the brief amount of time they gave it. I don't trust their praise until I know for myself it's decent (Nexus 7, Infinity) because there are all sorts of issues they won't be around to see (Prime).
I see Microsoft reported on version of the surface sold out of pre order. initial estimates were 2-5 million units (including all the models) were on hand for pre order.
I'm curious if anyone has seen links to estimated numbers of sales of the sold out units. a million,100000, 10000?
haven't seen a big grinning "I told you so" mug from balmer yet... hmmm
post whatchafind here.
I'm sure that the stock they have made available online is nowhere near the number of units that they have actually produced for availability. The online stock was probably a small quantity. Of course, I'm sure we won't know much about numbers till after launch.
Don't forget they need to have units available to ship to other retailers and they need to have units to ship to their own stores. I think at this point, pre-ordering at a Microsoft Store is your best bet.
The number would be really small maybe even not an amount but a clever marketing person going after x amount of time we will display the cheapest version as out of stock! This then creates a panic in the wait and see crowd who then jump in and pre order the higher models. Basically I wouldn't believe anything you see till they produce numbers as this is the typical rubbish people pull. I mean isn't it amazing how EVERY xmas the current games consoles go out of stock only to all of a sudden have loads in the last couple of weeks??? They know that loads of people would want to wait and see but if they do then you don't get high first sales and you stall but if you make people think they might miss out its amazing how many people will jump at it.
That said I hope they have sold loads and cant wait to get mine, after an initial worry on pricing I have decided its worth it, after all you can run bluestacks for apps so that's now not a problem
lumpaywk said:
The number would be really small maybe even not an amount but a clever marketing person going after x amount of time we will display the cheapest version as out of stock! This then creates a panic in the wait and see crowd who then jump in and pre order the higher models. Basically I wouldn't believe anything you see till they produce numbers as this is the typical rubbish people pull. I mean isn't it amazing how EVERY xmas the current games consoles go out of stock only to all of a sudden have loads in the last couple of weeks??? They know that loads of people would want to wait and see but if they do then you don't get high first sales and you stall but if you make people think they might miss out its amazing how many people will jump at it.
That said I hope they have sold loads and cant wait to get mine, after an initial worry on pricing I have decided its worth it, after all you can run bluestacks for apps so that's now not a problem
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
BlueStacks is a regular desktop application - RT does not run desktop applications, unfortunately.
Valerianus said:
BlueStacks is a regular desktop application - RT does not run desktop applications, unfortunately.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Please check this link http://bluestacks.com/technology/ You will see that there will be an ARM bluestacks for windows 8 launch (maybe a small wait).
"•Android on Windows (for ARM):
Run Android on Windows on ARM architectures starting with the Windows 8 release"
lumpaywk said:
The number would be really small maybe even not an amount but a clever marketing person going after x amount of time we will display the cheapest version as out of stock! This then creates a panic in the wait and see crowd who then jump in and pre order the higher models.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The trouble is that the higher models of the Surface are now on backorder too. Some people may not bother preordering, anymore.
Looks like the last week of October will be a fun week. All three of the Big Boys (APL, MSFT, GOOG) will be releasing new toys: iPad Mini, Surface RT, and rumored Nexus 10 by Samsung.
The Samsung Nexus 10 if true should be a beast. 2560x1600, likely Exynos 5 Dual (5250) based on Cortex-A15. Base pricing should be same as iPad. If so, we'd be looking at three 10"-ish tabs from the three platforms at the same $499 price.
Out of the three, Nexus 10 would win on hardware, iPad on software (apps). Doesn't look good for Surface RT, no matter how MS spins the "low-res is just as good as hi-res".
e.mote said:
Looks like the last week of October will be a fun week. All three of the Big Boys (APL, MSFT, GOOG) will be releasing new toys: iPad Mini, Surface RT, and rumored Nexus 10 by Samsung.
The Samsung Nexus 10 if true should be a beast. 2560x1600, likely Exynos 5 Dual (5250) based on Cortex-A15. Base pricing should be same as iPad. If so, we'd be looking at three 10"-ish tabs from the three platforms at the same $499 price.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Meh... It's still just Android, only on a bigger, high-res screen, running smartphone apps... Double meh for iPad Mini and the same boring UI on a 7" screen...
Although, I do agree on the screen resolution. I don't understand why MS didn't specify at least a 1080 screen on the RT especially with Office pre-installed. Windows Phone 8 on a 4"-5" screen, Windows 8 RT on a 10" tablet, Windows 8 Pro on a 27" desktop, Xbox w/ kinect on a 50" TV and SmartGlass to connect them all... what more do you need?
>I don't understand why MS didn't specify at least a 1080 screen on the RT
I think it's because of a long development cycle. The Surface specs were probably finalized some time last year, when 1280x800 tablets (and the $499 price) were still the norm. The low-priced KFs and N7s didn't exist then.
BTW, here's a good read on Steven Sinofsky, the exec in charge of the whole Windows initiatives, including Surface. His rigid management style, as depicted in the piece, may be the underlying reason for Surface's current state.
http://news.cnet.com/8301-10805_3-57536905-75/steven-sinofsky-microsofts-controversial-mr-windows-8/
e.mote said:
>I don't understand why MS didn't specify at least a 1080 screen on the RT
I think it's because of a long development cycle. The Surface specs were probably finalized some time last year, when 1280x800 tablets (and the $499 price) were still the norm. The low-priced KFs and N7s didn't exist then.
BTW, here's a good read on Steven Sinofsky, the exec in charge of the whole Windows initiatives, including Surface. His rigid management style, as depicted in the piece, may be the underlying reason for Surface's current state.
http://news.cnet.com/8301-10805_3-57536905-75/steven-sinofsky-microsofts-controversial-mr-windows-8/
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think also going with a higher res screen has its tradeoffs - requires more battery consumption(screen is the main factor in battery life) and smoothness of the OS. Isn't this an issue wit hthe Ipda3 vs the Iad 2 - I head battery was worse. My wife has a Nexus 7, and the great thing about it is the OS is snappy, partially because its only a 7 inch screen but running a quad core to drive it.
I know the screen display has become a big issue with Apple - But the Surface is at least better than the Ipad 2 (maybe not the Ipad 3) but again, aren't we all getting caught up in specs without knowing implementation and real world use. Its funny how Apple is focusing on how their screen is better, but they are still running a dual core processor, and fall short in so many other areas including usb, micro SD. But one thing I am curious about is implementation of USB devices on RT - how compatible will it be considering there may not be drivers for everything.
I do agree with MS that resolution alone isn't everything - Contrast has a lot to do with it. I am still running a 2005 50" Panasonic plasma at home that is only 720p but I have to tell you it looks just as good as some cheap 1080ps I have seen lately. There's the same argument when it comes to megapixel counts on camers with cheap CMOS (More is not always better).
We have to remember we are also just talking about a 10" screen.
I have my 64gb Surface with touch cover on orderand will have on or before 26th (Ordered it before the backorder came on). I Am curious what the return policy is for Microsoft Online store if this thing turns out to be a dud after all.
>I know the screen display has become a big issue with Apple - But the Surface is at least better than the Ipad 2 (maybe not the Ipad 3)
This is PR spin coming out of MS. Nobody knows how Surface RT fares in a head-to-head match against iPad 2/3, because MS still hasn't let anyone review it. May be the spin is right, and may be not, but I'd rather hear it from a less biased source.
Anyway, the spin falls apart when one considers that MS is pricing the RT against iPad 3 (actually higher than the 3), not the 2.
>aren't we all getting caught up in specs without knowing implementation and real world use
Sure, geeks tend to obsess with specs. Regular Joes care about other things, like screen image, size/weight/style, brand, price, and apps. RT loses in most if not all these categories.
>Its funny how Apple is focusing on how their screen is better, but they are still running a dual core processor, and fall short in so many other areas including usb, micro SD.
I thought we weren't going to talk about specs. About that, you do realize that the Teg3 used in Surface RT is a year-old design that's now used in the $200 Nexus 7, right? You also realize that the Exynos 5 dual blows away the Teg3 quad, right?
>I do agree with MS that resolution alone isn't everything - Contrast has a lot to do with it.
Here's a counterpoint: If low-res is just as good as high-res, then why not put the same low-res on Surface Pro?
Yes, the PPI thing is partly a marketing thing, just as was the megahertz war of yore. Part of it confers real benefits, part of it is hype. But understand that MS is pooh-pooh'ing high-res display because its own product use dated components. Surface RT has 2011 parts, and MS simply didn't keep up with the fast pace of advancing technology.
>I Am curious what the return policy is for Microsoft Online store if this thing turns out to be a dud after all.
http://google.com/search?q=microsoft+store+return+policy
e.mote said:
>I know the screen display has become a big issue with Apple - But the Surface is at least better than the Ipad 2 (maybe not the Ipad 3)
This is PR spin coming out of MS. Nobody knows how Surface RT fares in a head-to-head match against iPad 2/3, because MS still hasn't let anyone review it. May be the spin is right, and may be not, but I'd rather hear it from a less biased source.
Anyway, the spin falls apart when one considers that MS is pricing the RT against iPad 3 (actually higher than the 3), not the 2.
>aren't we all getting caught up in specs without knowing implementation and real world use
Sure, geeks tend to obsess with specs. Regular Joes care about other things, like screen image, size/weight/style, brand, price, and apps. RT loses in most if not all these categories.
>Its funny how Apple is focusing on how their screen is better, but they are still running a dual core processor, and fall short in so many other areas including usb, micro SD.
I thought we weren't going to talk about specs. About that, you do realize that the Teg3 used in Surface RT is a year-old design that's now used in the $200 Nexus 7, right? You also realize that the Exynos 5 dual blows away the Teg3 quad, right?
>I do agree with MS that resolution alone isn't everything - Contrast has a lot to do with it.
Here's a counterpoint: If low-res is just as good as high-res, then why not put the same low-res on Surface Pro?
Yes, the PPI thing is partly a marketing thing, just as was the megahertz war of yore. Part of it confers real benefits, part of it is hype. But understand that MS is pooh-pooh'ing high-res display because its own product use dated components. Surface RT has 2011 parts, and MS simply didn't keep up with the fast pace of advancing technology.
>I Am curious what the return policy is for Microsoft Online store if this thing turns out to be a dud after all.
http://google.com/search?q=microsoft+store+return+policy
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Regarding return policy - I guess I was looking for a more real world understanding from someone. Had previously read the official, and it basically says that if its a computer, which it is, and it has been opened, then they won't take it back. So basically we are all screwed if we don't like this thing after opening it and bought it from Microsoft online.
not a very good return policy.
Nobody really knows about MS return policy, because this is the first time MS is selling a whole computer (as opposed to just peripherals). I think your best bet is to phone or go to a MS store and get the low-down on Oct 26.
Really, if you're unsure, just don't get RT on launch day. Wait for reviews, and to see what other choices are there. There'll be lots. Personally, I think once Clovertrail tabs show up at $499, that'll be the best option for Win users who want regular Windows on a tablet.
BTW, news peeps who went to the MS Surface "Hardware R Us" shindig have all gotten a Surface RT unit for review, and NDA should be lifted today (Tues Oct 23), so we should have a better idea of what Win RT is shortly.
e.mote said:
Really, if you're unsure, just don't get RT on launch day. Wait for reviews, and to see what other choices are there. There'll be lots. Personally, I think once Clovertrail tabs show up at $499, that'll be the best option for Win users who want regular Windows on a tablet.
.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Or AMD-Z60 as it should be cheaper has more graphics ability (run call of duty at 30fps) and has better support for bluestacks. That said it uses more power gets hotter and needs more airflow.
Now that NDA is lifted, looks like the first Surface RT review is up. Unsurprising verdict: Still too many unknowns.
http://www.engadget.com/2012/10/23/microsoft-surface-rt-review/