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Question about gtab and tech mainstream websites

Why aren't mainstream tech websites mentioning the gtab? It didn't even make it to most of the top 10 lists. Is there a conspiracy to downplay the effectiveness of the gtab once it's rooted and flashed? I've used the update viewsonic provided and even that has made the gtab totally awesome.
I'm just puzzled why the modding and hacking communities are the only ones recognizing the potential and power of this machine. None of the tech websites is mentioning anything about the potential behind this tablet. It's mind boggling. Even viewsonic has decided to stop supporting it. Why?

goodintentions said:
Why aren't mainstream tech websites mentioning the gtab? It didn't even make it to most of the top 10 lists. Is there a conspiracy to downplay the effectiveness of the gtab once it's rooted and flashed? I've used the update viewsonic provided and even that has made the gtab totally awesome.
I'm just puzzled why the modding and hacking communities are the only ones recognizing the potential and power of this machine. None of the tech websites is mentioning anything about the potential behind this tablet. It's mind boggling. Even viewsonic has decided to stop supporting it. Why?
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Cnet, PC magazine, mobile magazine and PC world have. It seems they have Apple stock they are banking on so they are plugging ipad. Notice every other commercial was ipad now its Xoom.
Those type entities like to cattle-herd consumers in certain directions for maximum profitability of those who are paying for advertising on their sites. GTab is a sleeper tab and although they down played it many are still buying as of late in mass quantity. It is selling by word of mouth by satisfied buyers. The very best advertising the kind you don't have to buy. Interesting to watch them change their reviews. Check out cnet for a laugh.

I think primarily because it doesn't come from one of the "big" companies like Motorola, Samsung, or HTC. There wasn't much of a push by Viewsonic advertising wise to put this thing in the spotlight and when it first came out it was lamented for it's poor viewing angles and horrible custom UI. Sure the product has improved immensely since launch by way of updates and custom ROMs but it's hard to shake off that initial impression. Right now many people see it as just another android 2.2 tablet.

It's all about Marketing, I'm sure. The Xoom is a media darling because Motorola has paid lots of money to make sure of that -- ie. the Superbowl commercial.
And Apple's Marketing juggernaut is legendary.

edirector said:
Cnet, PC magazine, mobile magazine and PC world have.
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Yeah, they did a quick review of the gtab when it first came out late last year basically saying it sux and then they haven't said anything else since.
Check out cnet for a laugh.
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What do you mean? I just went to it. Didn't see anything different.

Here's an example of how much the GTAB is ignored
GTAB has had OTG access since Day One, even with the crappy software. The Xoom did not, when it was released.
So, I happened to find an OTG cable in my Bag of Carp and ported the GTAB config changes and init changes to the Xoom. I am not a dev by any means, but it was fairly easy to do, given my experience here - maybe an hour of work to port, test and then release.
The darn thing ended up on Engadget. The ONLY mod I've ever done that's made it to Engadget.
As happy as I was to see it get advertised, I had to scratch my head and wonder why my other mods, which required a LOT more work, and even the rest of the developers here have gotten zero recognition on sites like that. I know gojimi made it to Engadget once, but it was due to his Adam apps that he ported, not his GTAB ROMs.
Maybe the Woot! sale and subsequent $299 sales will finally give the GTablet the visibility it deserves.

I wonder if the larger "mainstream" publications shy away from anything ROM related (and probably root too).
I'm a woot-er waiting for mine still, but from all I've read, TnT out-of-the-box pretty much sucks and you have to be willing to do the flashing, etc to get it to a more useful state. So, since it's not a good tablet without a newly flashed ROM, this isn't really a great device for the general consumer.
That said, I'd think you'd see it get more play on more techy oriented websites that wouldn't be avoiding discussion of ROMs.

roebeet said:
Maybe the Woot! sale and subsequent $299 sales will finally give the GTablet the visibility it deserves.
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They haven't taken any notice of the woot deal, either when it was on, or now, even w the 10k sales in one day. Funny thing is when the Samsung Galaxy players went on sale in Korea, and apparently sold 10k in one day, that made news all over the place. That should tell you everything.
Jim

All journalists have a hive instinct.

jimcpl said:
They haven't taken any notice of the woot deal, either when it was on, or now, even w the 10k sales in one day. Funny thing is when the Samsung Galaxy players went on sale in Korea, and apparently sold 10k in one day, that made news all over the place. That should tell you everything.
Jim
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Yeah, the $299.99 16GB iPad from Verizon also made front page news on Engadget this past week.

goodintentions said:
Yeah, they did a quick review of the gtab when it first came out late last year basically saying it sux and then they haven't said anything else since.
What do you mean? I just went to it. Didn't see anything different.
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It moved up a half star.

chrishaw said:
I'm a woot-er waiting for mine still, but from all I've read, TnT out-of-the-box pretty much sucks and you have to be willing to do the flashing, etc to get it to a more useful state. So, since it's not a good tablet without a newly flashed ROM, this isn't really a great device for the general consumer.
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The last OTA actually made it faster and more functional. I would say to anyone getting a new gtab to give the stock a shot for a day or two. I was a totally different experience from when I first picked up a gtab to playing withe the latest OTA at office Max this weekend.
Sent from my Chromatic Magic using XDA Premium App

Why Viewsonic hates us

Viewsonic announced it's Honeycomb tablet @ 7 inches. Which means they have the HC source code... which means they hate the gtab community.... because we don't get it, even for modding purposes.
http://www.engadget.com/2011/05/12/viewsonic-7x-shrinks-honeycomb-to-7-inches-for-the-tiny-handed/

They don't hate the Gtab community. Don't try to anthropomorphize a corporation because you will only end up sad and depressed. All Viewsonic wants is to make money by putting out products and then putting out more products. We are numbers, not faces.

Fair enough. I suppose I am a bit idealistic that they would continue to support something older. Perhaps more my frustration is the lack of source code when it could be given... but that it an entitlement mentality I suppose.

forgiventhief said:
Fair enough. I suppose I am a bit idealistic that they would continue to support something older. Perhaps more my frustration is the lack of source code when it could be given... but that it an entitlement mentality I suppose.
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stop caving because one person says something!!!!
and to the user that commented to the OP, thought the info you stated (numbers, not faces) is true, STOP ACTING LIKE IT'S ACCEPTABLE.
To many 300 to 500 dollars is a lot of money and the company has a moral obligation to support it for a reasonable amount of time. This was in no way accomplished by viewsonic. Horrible business ethics and I WILL NEVER BUY ANOTHER VIEWSONIC PRODUCT. you vote with your purchasing power and viewsonic lost mine, my family's and my friend's votes.
as an aside, I suspect seeing all the progress made viewsonic might try to "save the day" and eventually release something for our g tab honeycomb flavored. I'm not fooled and you shouldn't be either. Your support should be for the devs like roebeet. If your running honeycomb and you haven't donated to him or the adamdevs you should feel worse than viewsonic.
vote with your money, I VOTE FOR OUR DEV COMMUNITY!
(before I get any posts about talking about donation, donation doesn't imply 3,000 dollars. Even if it's only a dollar, it says something.)

You do realize viewsonic just slapped their name on the Malta, right? You're mad at the wrong company.

schettj said:
You do realize viewsonic just slapped their name on the Malta, right? You're mad at the wrong company.
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Doesn't matter, though. As soon as VS slapped their name on it, they've adopted it.
The way VS is treating the gtab is worse than just numbers. They have intentionally ignored it, not giving it any press or anything at all. There isn't even a direct link to the gtab from their main website.
The gtab is doing way better than other "real" VS devices. It's the number 1 seller on amazon for goodness sake. I'm still baffled why VS isn't putting more energy into the gtab. It's like they don't even wanna mention it.

I think it is a way to get more people to move to their ViewPad line and off of the GTab. I will not switch to their new line just because they put 3.0 on it. Our Devs will get a port over to the GTab and it will blow their new line out of the water. Shady tactics if you ask me.

goodintentions said:
Doesn't matter, though. As soon as VS slapped their name on it, they've adopted it.
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But they don't have any code... they have no development resources. They have a brand name. Whooo.
Seriously.

goodintentions said:
It's the number 1 seller on amazon for goodness sake.
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Yes, it was for the week it was on blowout $280 clearance. Look, it's a great bit of first gen tegra2 tablet hardware with a dreadful screen that would make it unsellable at any price other than "half of what everyone else charges".
That's dropping under $200-$225 now, which is probably well below the breakeven point. So enjoy it, and support the hackers hacking away, but forget about any serious support for it from VS. You'll be much happier.

yes, the code for our G-tabs belongs to Malata, but so does the code for the Vega and the Adam. They are rumored to be at least getting official GB roms WITH hardware acceleration. VS is to blame for not providing us with that as well. If they do, but are keeping it hush-hush, I'll change my opinion.
Of course, Vega and Adam are running on the new 1.2 bootloader (always have been). Now VS teases us with an update that they pull, that is on the 1.2 bootlaoder? In essence, VS provided our devs, very briefly, with the tools needed to port any updates from Adam or Vega. So, while not actually giving us what we've requested, they are letting other companies, and third party developers do their work for them.
It may be that Malata has abandoned VS for their lack of support for the G-Tab, so Malata cut them off from future development releases.

snapz54 said:
and to the user that commented to the OP, thought the info you stated (numbers, not faces) is true, STOP ACTING LIKE IT'S ACCEPTABLE.
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I didn't say it's acceptable. In fact it makes me just as mad as it seems to have made you and I have made my opinion on that fact known many times on this board and the Nvidia developer board. I'm just saying that the people who want these updates are currently in the minority. I agree that we should get updates but we have to realize that might not happen. In fact I'd much rather use homegrown software from the fine developers on XDA, Cyanogen, and any other dev website that's working for better things for the Gtab than anything Viewsonic/Malata/Nvidia puts out anyhow.
This whole frequently updated software thing is new to the world. I mean think about Apple and Microsoft. Microsoft updated like once every five years. Apple was better, but in both cases users were made to pay for the updates. Now we buy these devices and expect free software updates indefinetly? Sounds good to me, but what about these companies? Where is the money for them? What incentive to they have to churn out more software at no charge to the customer? I'm just saying that there are two sides to this argument and both should be represented.

adampdx said:
This whole frequently updated software thing is new to the world. I mean think about Apple and Microsoft. Microsoft updated like once every five years. Apple was better, but in both cases users were made to pay for the updates.
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What color is the sky in your world?
The problem with Android is exactly the problem Google is trying to get a handle on....
Fragmentation.
When you leave updates up to the the hardware manufactures, you're guaranteed to screw your customers. Because the only way the HW guys make any money at all is by having the customer buy new hardware to get the shiny new features.
Hopefully Google will be able to beat these guys into submission, but I do feel for them... they thought they were getting in on a great thing with a cheap OS for their hardware, and instead they were turned into commodity manufacturers delivering Google ad revenue to Google. Ah well.

I'd much rather use homegrown software from the fine developers on XDA, Cyanogen, and any other dev website that's working for better things for the Gtab than anything Viewsonic/Malata/Nvidia puts out anyhow.
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But it's these updates that custom rom devs use to get the information they need to make their roms. If we ever get official hardware acceleration it will be bundled into one of the officially released updates. The drivers can then be added to existing roms, or future roms. The bottom line is that we NEED official updates if we are to ever get the G-tablet to reach it's full potential.
Now we buy these devices and expect free software updates indefinetly? Sounds good to me, but what about these companies?
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These companies, namely VS knows that they put out a crap product, in regard to software. In fact, they, at one point, directed their customers HERE for support for their device. They released a product in which the hardware outclassed the software. What we paid for was hardware, plain and simple. only recently have people actually said they're using stock firmware and it doesn't suck. Prior to the latest updates (3588 and later) I would suspect that everyone that bought a G-tablet, including myself, KNEW that they were going to have to flash a custom Rom. Just a few days ago, another 850+ G-tabs were sold on Woot, again. At one point it was the top seller on Amazon. VS has to save a little face and continue to support their software, and yes, provide updates.
Fortunately for VS, Notion Ink seems more interested in updating their product for us...of course, VS had to sneak in the 1.2 dev branch that's shared by the Adam.

some good points have been made, but none of the ones supporting VS have been valid.
slapping your name on something instantly slaps responsibility on you, this "passing the buck" mentality is a big part of whats wrong with the world. Everyone can blame someone else and nothing gets done.
The consequences in some small part are now realized. Myself and others will not support viewsonic in any capacity in the future. Actions like this catch up with you, VS is a horrible company that saw an opportunity to make a quick buck without a moments thought of how it might affect anyone.
stop supporting these type of actions, they are wrong.

snapz54 said:
some good points have been made, but none of the ones supporting VS have been valid.
slapping your name on something instantly slaps responsibility on you, this "passing the buck" mentality is a big part of whats wrong with the world. Everyone can blame someone else and nothing gets done.
The consequences in some small part are now realized. Myself and others will not support viewsonic in any capacity in the future. Actions like this catch up with you, VS is a horrible company that saw an opportunity to make a quick buck without a moments thought of how it might affect anyone.
stop supporting these type of actions, they are wrong.
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So you bought an $800.00 xoom?

snapz54 said:
stop supporting these type of actions, they are wrong.
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That would be "don't buy the product"
Since I wanted a device I can experiment with, and didn't want to spend more than $280, this was the only device available.
I bought it knowing what it was. An orphan device with no significant Vendor support.

i thought google said they aren't going to release honeycomb SDK? so doesn't that mean manufacturers are not allowed to release it?
but i guess if we buy the next VS tablet. we can port a honeycomb rom from that to the gtab.

ninditsu said:
i thought google said they aren't going to release honeycomb SDK? so doesn't that mean manufacturers are not allowed to release it?
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You're confusing SDK (Software Development Kit) with Source Code. That said, up to this point, Google has been reluctant to release the Source Code for Honeycomb for - what I can only assume is - the purpose of reducing hardware fragmentation and QA purposes.

schettj said:
What color is the sky in your world?
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Ha! Always good to get a laugh out of these heated discussions. As far as fragmentation goes, I agree. It's a problem that Google created and now they're trying to fix. I'm not sure I can imagine a world where there are several hundred different pieces of tech floating around from different manufactures that all use software provided by a singular, separate company. Oh, wait...that sounds like WINDOWS. He he... I wouldn't dare compare our beloved Google to the likes of Microsoft. Never.

schettj said:
That would be "don't buy the product"
Since I wanted a device I can experiment with, and didn't want to spend more than $280, this was the only device available.
I bought it knowing what it was. An orphan device with no significant Vendor support.
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Thank you. These things are on clearance for a reason. A lot of people here have unrealistic expectations. Companies don't make money by pouring resources into devices that nobody bought. I remember buying an Atari Lynx back in the day and only had it for about a year before everybody stopped making games for it and they were pulled off the shelves. I never once thought that Atari hated me.

Newsflash: Android Is Not Perfect

This is just a PSA to all you vicious Android fanboys on this forum that hound anyone who asks the question "what phone should I get", especially when one of those options includes an iOS device or a WP7 device.
So let me get this started. I love Android. But Android is not perfect. Take a deep breath, and say it with me again, out loud.
"Android is not perfect." Was that too hard? If so the following explanation is for you.
Ever since Android first came out, people were hailing it as the iPhone killer. But in reality? It's really not. It may be getting there, and may be getting there quickly, but that's not that point.
It may be a surprise to many of you, but there are actually other human beings outside of XDA that use smartphones. Human beings that are not interested in rooting their phones or spending a lot of time completely customizing them or pushing them to the limit. These human beings want their phones to work when they need them, and that's all. Whether these phones are iOS, Android, or Windows Mobile/7 phones is completely irrelevant to them.
Except, it actually is. But see, not in the way most of you seem to think it is.
People shop for phones nowadays because the have an end they need to reach and they need the means to get to that end. Whether it's something as simple as checking an email message or quenching a thirst to play a game, they take into consideration what is the quickest, most hassle-free way to do this. This requirement is not because they are stupid. Most XDA users seem to think that anyone off XDA just buys iPhones because they are uneducated about "the true power of Android" and all that jazz. Guess what? That's not the case.
Yes. Here at XDA, we can do a lot with our phones. We root them, we build custom ROMs for them, we use features that were locked before, or get versions of our OS that aren't out yet.
But please be damn sure you understand that we are the minority. We will always be the minority. Your experience here doesn't define the mobile landscape, it only improves your personal experience with your phone. Just because you took a few hours to root your phone, find the perfect custom ROM, and settle down with it doesn't make the average Joe who just bought an iPhone (because it does what he wants easily and has all the apps he likes) a stupid user.
Here is the meat of this newsflash; Android wouldn't be here if it wasn't for iOS. (Going further, iOS wouldn't be there without Windows Mobile, and etc etc etc until we reached the very first man who asked 'why can't I see my email from my phone'). Apple took a chance on what people wanted, and realized they had something. They built an OS that was based on the ideals of OS X; simple, straight-forward, good looking, and well received. And so began the App and Data revolution. All of a sudden, the idea of having mobile data became real. These wonderful delicious little things called "apps" made the mobile world much more exciting than it had even been before. And so Apple hit a goldmine, and the mobile landscape had been painted. These apps were well-designed, fun, informative, useful, and people liked them so much, they started to buy paid apps. Apple knows how to market to people, and there success showed.
So then. Android.
Android was birthed out of the idea that Google could cash in on this app world. You may think the intentions were noble, with the idea that it was some pipe dream in the same way linux was; completely open mobile platform. After all, if Apple could have the success with a closed system, Google obviously could rock the world with an open one.
But it's not. Android, or at least what most people come to think of as Android these days, is not "open". It's open to phone manufacturers, and carriers, but that's it. It' snot open to the end user. Why else do we have locked down features, closed-source OEM skins that hinder future firmware upgrades? Why else do we have carrier-controlled Market restrictions? Why do some phones not ship with developer tools, or the ability to install from unknown sources?
Let me be frank. I love Android, but Android is a mess. It's a mess of a bunch of wonderful ideas that would have shined like nothing else in the perfect world, but a mess that didn't anticipate a simple fact; businesses like to make money.
The truth of the matter is that we don't have freedom with Android. Every little part of it has a restriction we need to bypass. Do you buy an expensive high end phone, or a cheaper low-end phone? Will you still be able to play those cool games on that low end phone? Will it get software updates? Is it safe from malware? Buying an Android phone has become the same as trying to buy a Windows PC.
It suffers from the same problem that Microsoft does when compared to Apple's line of computers. Apple builds its hardware AND its software, so they interface with complete precision and function. People with iPhones don't need to worry about security updates, or whether their phone will be obsolete. Apple may release a new phone every year, but the point is that those phones are made to last, both in terms of hardware and software. They even went the next step further and made the iPod touch, which gave phone users who weren't ready for smartphones a taste of what it was like.
My Sprint Hero came out on October 11th, 2009. The iPhone 3GS came out in June of the same year. Both were priced around the same amount, but what stands out to me the most when I think back to when I tested both that year? The fact it took Google this long to make an operating system which took ages to mature enough to be used by HTC to make a phone that STILL could not even give me a smooth web browser, something that the very first iPhone was able to do. Games on the Hero sucked in comparison to the 3D games that were playable on the iPhone.
Now then, Android smartphone hardware has advanced to a significant level, but the point of this whole rant is that Google has always been following in Apple's footsteps in the mobile world, and it's going to be that way for some time.
Be a bit humble about the begginings of Android and what it's become, and for f***'s sake, be a bit mature than just saying "LOLOLOL APPLE SUCKS GG GET ANDROID".
Because it's the rest of the world outside of XDA that defines the success of these mobile platforms, because I hate to say this, but you and I are not part of that outside world of mobile phone users, and we never will be.
The truth is, no one can really say what the "perfect" mobile OS is. All we can do is say what works best for us or what we prefer, but when we state it as fact, as though it's not arguable, that's when we become the fanboys that we so dearly hate. Just keep that in mind.
Opinions welcome, fanboyism from either side not wanted at all. Congrats on finishing this post.

Excellent post. Would read again.

Great things said there. I can see a point in it. But still, I don't either see Ios higher as Android since Ios is a mess too. Let me just take this simple statement. Music on a Ipod/Iphone needs to be converted from the computer to the device, you can't random download a song(on the device) from Internet and play it. Same as the file exploring.. if you want to search for a file, you find a file in some folder like: im/af/on/ar/qr, or just some folders which are messy, and the file types are unknown for the computer. All those small things give me the excuse to stay at Windows Mobile. Simply cause we can download music files and play it, simply cause there is great development on it, simply cause it can be customized how we want it.

Cool story bro
Sent from my HTC Glacier using XDA Premium App

d12unk13astard said:
Cool story bro
Sent from my HTC Glacier using XDA Premium App
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Good job. That must have taken some serious thought to come up with.

This is something I 100% agree with.
When I had a Samsung Moment, I had problems galore with it. Keyboard wouldn't type, horrible support, and the big network lockup. Mind you, a network lockup where you can't call out to anyone is against FCC laws. But just to get some type of damn support for the thing, I almost had to root it. And I'm sorry, but I shouldn't have to depend on an online community for support for a phone when the carrier and manufacturer of the phone should be doing that. What the hell is the point in buying the phone and paying damn near $70 a month if I can't use the damn thing?
Let's also talk about performance of the Moment and how unoptimized it was. The Moment uses the same SoC found in the Iphone 2g, and 3g. The only difference, stock 2g and 3g SoC is 600 mhz, clocked down to about 422 mhz for battery, while the Moment was 800 mhz. Both arm11 cpu cores. The Iphone 2g and 3g despite having almost half the clocked frequency of the Moment, was smoother and had actual hardware support and acceleration. Even this day, Samsung still does not have proper hardware support for the SoC being used in the Moment, Intercept, Transform, Spica, etc etc.
If done right, Android is pretty awesome I'll admit. But if I want a phone to work, I'll get something that actually works.

big advantage of android, but also a weakness:
it works well on many devices, but its not optimised for the spezific hardware of each phone...

gosualex said:
big advantage of android, but also a weakness:
it works well on many devices, but its not optimised for the spezific hardware of each phone...
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Good understanding

I love android because I love to tinker. Nothing could ever change my mind short of the os aging. I will say this flaws or not I refuse to give apple my money. So it's either wp7 or android.
My words to live buy if I can't hack it I don't want it. Just my 2cents
Sent from my A500 using XDA Premium Apps

I would agree iPhones support is a lot longer no network changes added, updates can brick the phones though.
Android need some love. Fragmentation. Networks slow to update. Ui 's being to sluggish to update the phone to higher levels.
All android phones should be aosp no extras from makers or networks.
Love my cm7/miui.us phone but most people would want to flash it or know how to. They would just think might as well get an iPhone.
Just my feelings. I own apple computers. Custom built pcs android phones had iPhones I still use an iPod touch in the kitchen as you can get the best speaker docks for them. Use what works best for the situation.
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Android security warning !!
I think android is the best system, but its very insecure if you let it on stock and don't secure it, root it, get rid of some apps and optimize it.
Did you know that a normal app with all permissions can get all your data?
-gps location
-contacts
-logs
-screenshots
-hidden camerashots
-sms/mms
-emails
-photos
-etc
BELIEVE IT OR NOT, THIS IS FACT !!!
There was a test in germany, where a developer made a app with all the rights to do the things above and send them hidden in the backround to a specified server to that he had access. So he could read and see all the things above and it was even updating immidiatly after a new sms or something came in and the testuser who installed it had no clue at all and was shocked when they told it to her.
The App itself was just making photos with a black censor stripe in the eyes and it seemed that it never could do that, but all the real action is going on in the backround.
By the way, he sayd it was very easy and many apps could do that and most of them really do that.
And what I know, many of you don't know or don't care and spread all your information to some companys that like to have them alot. And they allways want more.
Maybe you should spread this information by quoting this post or linking to it, because many people don't like to be ripped of their information.
Or do you like it, when someone is standing close to you and listens all what you say to your friends, when you have a private conversation ? I think not!
check out my signature also.
and be safe!
edit: i think i should post this as a new thread!

Great post, good read!!

Hard to say any mobile OS is perfect. But the world of mobile OS is developing quickly in recent years.
Haven't played extensively with Android and IOS. Currenly, I still think IOS is more polish. Android definitely have a lot of features and I am looking forward to where they take the OS to in the future. It seems like it's an OS that has a lot of support and has had to "grow up" really rapidly.

I actually agrer with everything in this post. Fact is the best technology in the world is technology that is stable, works, and allows the user to complete what ever task is needed.
Last night it was decided my wife and I are switching to verizon why? Cause the wife wants IOS and I am more partial to android and BB and thats the only carrier that has all 3.
Now to add on what was already said I think google needs to pick one manufacture purchase them then do exactly what apple does marry the hardware amd software together to get rid of what can be a problematic OS simply cause with some manufactures android is worse then on others.
Sent from my SPH-P100 using XDA App

(•.•) said:
I think android is the best system, but its very insecure if you let it on stock and don't secure it, root it, get rid of some apps and optimize it.
Did you know that a normal app with all permissions can get all your data?
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You give apps on an iphone or WM phone permissions to do these things too right, so this is a more general problem in the new mobile world...
BTW, I like you're post LiquidSolstice, you could almost call it a fact, it's not that the one is better than the other. It's just that they are different and the majority of people likes easy and simple...

I agree with alot of what LS mentions in the first post. My wife is one of those who could really care less about rooting, overclocking, mem management, or even what version of Android she is using for that matter. She just wants to be able to send that text without the keyboard "hicupping", or to make that phone call without the dialer lagging, etc. I like Android, but I don't like Google's.. well let's say "less than kosher" business practices and corporate involvements. I think a big point to remember is that there will always be people like us that get a huge kick out of toying with electronics. For some, it's a hobby, for others, a career. With that being said, there will also always be those doofies that get on sites like this one and annoy the living crap out of you. Everything needs to be taken in stride, and though there are those who appear to be clueless on a subject, always remember that we all have to learn somehow. Knowledge is not obtained through osmosis.

Android feels like a permanent beta. I prefer iOS for simple tasks plusSbsettings is unmatched. WP7 seems more like a feature phone, it doesn't tell you 'I'm smart.'

I mostly agree
I don't think the problem with android is really the fact that more than one company is involved in developing phones for android. The problem is that those companies, (OEMs & carriers) have been given way to much freedom to decide not only what processor & RAM the phone would have but to put their "stamp" on android. I think the blame for that partially falls on Google for not putting a stop to OEMs & carriers putting their bloatware on phones. Google has been asked multiple times to do something about the "fragmentation" issue & they've refused, so ultimately they are partly responsible for the "mess" android has become.

tsaxda said:
I don't think the problem with android is really the fact that more than one company is involved in developing phones for android. The problem is that those companies, (OEMs & carriers) have been given way to much freedom to decide not only what processor & RAM the phone would have but to put their "stamp" on android. I think the blame for that partially falls on Google for not putting a stop to OEMs & carriers putting their bloatware on phones. Google has been asked multiple times to do something about the "fragmentation" issue & they've refused, so ultimately they are partly responsible for the "mess" android has become.
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Click to collapse
Well, carrier "bloat" --I put that in quotes because the current three major skins bring much needed features to Android (whether or not the execution is done well or not is a different argument)-- isn't quite what's killing it, it's the time spent optimizing the hardware for Android.
Android gets slapped on as many devices as possible and then sold as a low end affordable smartphone, and that's the issue, but that's the essence of Android at the same time.

ZeGuitarist said:
Excellent post. Would read again.
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+1 Outstanding post. Completely agree.

microsoft is flexing some muscle to cripple the competition!

We all know Microsoft is on a roll to make patent licensing agreements with Android OEMs. Since last week, Microsoft have announced 4 such deals without disclosing the amount of royalty involved. Today Reuters that Microsoft is demanding about $15 per Android device from Samsung, one of the largest android OEM in the world. Microsoft is also ready to lower the royalty amount if Samsung agrees with some deeper alliance related to Windows Phone smartphone making. Microsoft signed similar deal with HTC last year, Will Samsung also join the fray soon? I hope Samsung agrees with Microsoft on the later deal of less royalty amount for Android devices and more Windows Phone smartphones. Also analysts predict Samsung to ship about 19 million smartphones this quarter, if the deal is done Microsoft will get about $1 Billion IP licensing revenue from Samsung alone in a year...
Now that is a beautiful puzzle, they've already released the most user friendly and in my opinion best is on the market and now they're putting a squeeze on the big name android OEMs to eliminate some of the competition. I love this, now just throw in some good marketing and well have the trifecta of a perfect operating system.

Leave it to Microsoft to try to take over! Company wars are so much more exciting than politics lol. Can't wait to see how this race produces!

Eh, they want their piece of the pie and if someone was using my tech to make money I would too.

They'll just weigh up the balance between paying a small amount to make a phone that will actually sell running a decent OS, or the costs of developing the minimum number of WP7 handsets to sit unsold in a warehouse while paying a smaller amount to make a phone that will actually sell running a decent OS.
It's a bit like supermarkets and loss leaders, will the loss on WP7 be less than the gain on paying not quite as much to make Android handsets that actually sell.

z33dev33l said:
Eh, they want their piece of the pie and if someone was using my tech to make money I would too.
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What tech did MS actually contribute to Android? Or better asked: What unique tech worthy of a patent did MS come up with? Most of these patents fall into the category where every even remotely seasoned developer can come up with the stuff. Of course we can't know for sure, because MS never actually discloses which patents are involved here. Because they know full well it wouldn't stand up to public scrutiny.
And that's assuming software patents make sense in the first place. Which they don't.

They really don't but hey, I don't make those rules. It doesn't matter who can make it now, it's who created it first.
xaccers, you're fighting a losing battle, I'm just going to sit idly by and watch my OS actually improve rather than pallet swap, man I love being lag free.

z33dev33l said:
They really don't but hey, I don't make those rules.
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So you just accept the rules, no matter what they are. The abuse of the legal system (attack smaller firms who don't have the resources to fight first in order to create a precedent), the mafia-style protection racket (pay up or else), the obviousness of the patents, the very ridiculousness of even having software patents, all that is ok. Because the rules are the rules, right?
z33dev33l said:
man I love being lag free.
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So do I dude, so do I. Though I must say, that is some very, very narrow criteria for choosing an entire operating system.

Gusar321 said:
So you just accept the rules, no matter what they are. The abuse of the legal system (attack smaller firms who don't have the resources to fight first in order to create a precedent), the mafia-style protection racket, the obviousness of the patents, the very ridiculousness of even having software patents, all that is ok. Because the rules are the rules, right?
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Click to collapse
In cases where I think the rules are not too far fetched. I mean hell, if they did it first they have a right. As far as google not having the resources that's their own fault, iOS just did it first because they run their company with force rather than being laid back and just stealing info
Gusar321 said:
So do I dude, so do I. Though I must say, that is some very, very narrow criteria for choosing an entire operating system.
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Not at all but it certainly helps, I like having a phone that does everything I want without having to install any apps at all and without having to flash a new rom every 2-3 days. I love xbox live, I love a well implemented office, I love the keyboard, I love that the DVP despite it's weak processor is the most impressive piece of hardware out there for mobile devices, I like the hubs, I like zune, there's just nothing wrong with all of it. It is not flawless, but it's as close as a mobile OS comes.

z33dev33l said:
In cases where I think the rules are not too far fetched.
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Click to collapse
You can't honestly believe that they aren't far fetched in this case.
Do you know why patents were created for? And what they're used for in reality nowadays? And in particular the nature of software patents? If you really believe what you just wrote, the clear answer to those questions is "no".
z33dev33l said:
if they did it first they have a right
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Click to collapse
But what exactly is it that they did first? It's like I said, trivial things that any seasoned developer can come up with. Being the first to wrap it up in tons of legalese to be granted a patent on it is not an admirable achievement. Patents only make sense for things that are unique, where it took a lot of effort to come up with something new.
z33dev33l said:
As far as google not having the resources that's their own fault
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Click to collapse
That's just the thing, MS *didn't* attack Google. They attacked small companies releasing Android products. HTC was the biggest and now Samsung is even bigger. But they're taking on Samsung only after the precedent was set with the smaller companies. That's abuse of the legal system.
z33dev33l said:
Not at all but it certainly helps, I like having a phone that does everything I want without having to install any apps at all and without having to flash a new rom every 2-3 days.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Wow, hyperbole much? I have all that on Android. And I'm not flashing every two days. That I choose to replace some apps with other ones was just that - my choice. Choice is good. It means competition. It means people vying to create the best music player, the best video player, the best... well, you get the picture.
And what do you know, I have the lag-free interface too.

I guess if your product can't compete on its own merits, this is one way to go about it.

GnatGoSplat said:
I guess if your product can't compete on its own merits, this is one way to go about it.
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If more of the community was more intelligent then Microsoft would have no issues, sadly it's not the case. No one does their research or looks into a phone before buying it. The majority of sales reps have never even used a windows phone 7 thanks to the plague that was winmo.

z33dev33l said:
If more of the community was more intelligent then Microsoft would have no issues, sadly it's not the case. No one does their research or looks into a phone before buying it. The majority of sales reps have never even used a windows phone 7 thanks to the plague that was winmo.
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I know a lot of WP7 enthusiasts and blogs like to blame the sales reps, but I don't think sales reps are solely responsible for the 36% market gap.
I do have an HTC Surround I've been playing with, and you're right, it has no lag, but I honestly haven't seen anything that would make me choose it over iOS or Android. Probably the only thing I would miss is the cool XBox Live avatar guy I made.

GnatGoSplat said:
I know a lot of WP7 enthusiasts and blogs like to blame the sales reps, but I don't think sales reps are solely responsible for the 36% market gap.
I do have an HTC Surround I've been playing with, and you're right, it has no lag, but I honestly haven't seen anything that would make me choose it over iOS or Android. Probably the only thing I would miss is the cool XBox Live avatar guy I made.
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Click to collapse
I guess it's to each their own. I like functionality, a smooth UI, and hardware selection. The office and xbox programs on mango are great, overall I think the only reason I ever enjoyed android was because I got to spend so much time screwing around.

z33dev33l said:
I guess it's to each their own. I like functionality, a smooth UI, and hardware selection. The office and xbox programs on mango are great, overall I think the only reason I ever enjoyed android was because I got to spend so much time screwing around.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Don't underestimate how much people like to screw around. I think that's the whole reason XDA exists in the first place.

A lot of people are surprised Microsoft is doing this, but truth be told this is nothing new. Intel licenses out their instruction sets such as sse2, sse3, 3D Now! to Amd, nvidia, and Via. Companies do this all the time.

I wanted to like Microsoft, because hey, that's where all my stuff is (I'm an MS developer by trade as well). BUT, they fell short. Waaay short. Navigation, Voice commands, multitasking, the list was endless.
I have a few XBoxes and almost everything in my house is Windows based, but the phone won't sell me until I can firmly say: "I miss nothing on Android that I use every day."

Just Realizing... OEMs are Taking Advantage of us!

Alright, so after reading a couple articles on a bunch of sites. I can sort of understand a vicious cycle that's going on in the mobile development world.
First off, let me begin, Mobile OEMs (as we all know) don't release updates very often. And as a general rule, when they do... it's usually a couple months late. Just look at HTC devices, most of the (somewhat) older devices (depending on what you're definition of older is) aren't getting the updates to ICS for while http://goo.gl/FjcMJ . And in some cases they just decide not to update them at all. (see the Desire HD and possibly the Thunderbolt http://goo.gl/BwZld )
Initially when Android started, this was a little different. And allow me to clarify by going far far back, to the first Android device. The HTC Dream.
It initially came out with Android 1.0 (Astro) it eventually got updated all the way to the software version 1.5 (Cupcake). If you look back then, that's two software updates! Astro to Bender to Cupcake.
Now let's look at just about any other Android device (not made my Samsung, for the most part they're a bad example... (of course then again, they have the head of Cyanogenmod Steve Kondik on their team).
We're going to look at Motorola, because despite the fact that it's owned by Google, not all of their devices have received updates. And the device I've chosen from them is the defy. Now if you look over at the development section of the forums you'll see that we have a working (and apparently a very smooth) port of Jelly Bean for the Defy. http://goo.gl/mE1Qy
But if you decide to see what Motorola's deciding to do to update it from Gingerbread, well... their development section is devoid of everything for the Defy... http://goo.gl/g8XN0
Now why does that matter to us happy go lucky developers and modders? Well let's look over this little scenario I've played out in my head more than once.
CEO#1 "Oh they want Jelly Bean?"
CEO#2 "Yeah they do..."
CEO#1 "So what are we going to do about it?"
CEO#2 *checks XDA* "Nothing, the ones who really care about it have a working ROM up already."
CEO#1 "Okay, sounds good to me. So are you ready to go make some more phones with high specs and outdated software?"
CEO#2 "Well if we start now, we should be able to get six new devices running ICS 4.0.3 out by mid December!"
CEO#1 "Ohh, not even having the latest version of ICS is really going to get them. Brilliant!"
This is a vicious cycle that just keeps going around, and around, and around. The problem is that there doesn't seem to be a way to stop it. While we need Superuser and rooting privileges, we also need updates to the latest version of Android OS to keep us going.
OEMs on the other hand see us as free labor for development and as the only people who really want/need the updates. The problem is that with their history of sending out updates we really can't stop working. And even when they do send out updates, sometimes they aren't even fully stable! (see Evo 3D http://goo.gl/VzCNM )
So the question is, how are we going to stop this?

Buy devices from the companies that keep things up to date. The Nexus gets direct pushes from Google so you know you're good there. Sony has a dedicated line to developers through their forums and even offers devices for temporary dev use and has reasonably priced unsubsidised phones.
Put your dollars in the right places if you want to make change happen. Those who want full access still aren't a large enough part of the market to shape everything. That said, people pushing for control have made sure that iDevices can be jailbroken and HTC is staggering hard because of mis-steps in marketing that have been worsened by lackluster updates and their decision to shun the dev community that was bolstering them.

They can't look at xda or whatever Android forum because there is a larger population of users who have no idea what rooting is, let alone custom ROMs. Those people depend on updates and if they won't get an official update, they won't get one at all.
Sent from my MB508 using xda premium

If you ask 10 Android users what version of Android they are on, 8 of them will have no clue, 1 will know because the sales rep used it as a selling point, and one of them will be running Jellybean (thanks to XDA!).
Consumer demand is not high enough to demand the cost of testing new software on dated phones. Sad but true.

thebeastglasser said:
OEMs on the other hand see us as free labor for development and as the only people who really want/need the updates.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
If they really saw us as free labor, they would release a phone with cyanogenmod or something and just kang whatever works for their next update. (Actually, this would be a very good idea.)
However, in actuality, they just don't care about the devs. Too busy trying to differentiate their products with custom skins and cause more work for everyone.

It is true that most people don't know much more than that they are are android or "droid", just like many people don't know much more than they have an Iphone. The vocal majority of phone users (online) however have quite a bit more knowledge which means they get much more feedback from the minority.
One of the main reasons (other than price) that I got a Nexus 7 was due to the fact that Google pushes updates immediately to their nexus devices. I see this as an additional "perk".

You can't buy a device Android or other from an OEM or carrier and expect to get the latest greatest updates a or mods any too quickly. Forums and sites like xda bring in developers and users who ate eager to offer mods and help that you will never find coming from the mainstream as quickly or with the same quality. I get the device I want and look to here to make it better quicker.
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using xda app-developers app

But what I see is that there are a bunch of phones that could easily be running better software (like the Defy) but OEMs clearly see that anybody who seems to care enough about updates are doing it themselves. The problem is, there are relatives of mine who refuse to root and yet they know enough about phones to know what version they're running and know the difference between the two versions. The one they currently have, and the one they could have.
I feel like this is kind of unfair to the sed-mentioned people and on top of that, it makes uneducated users buy more phones, while it keeps people like us are at work.
I'd bet that it was a pain in the a** porting ICS to the Desire HD no thanks to HTC, and yet this is just one less job for HTC and a hell of a lot more work for us... That's just me.
And also, that idea for a "pre-kanged" phone or one running a version of Cyanogenmod is pretty good. It'd be a great idea...

Again, speak with your dollars. I have no doubt that Nexus sales will continue to climb not only because of devs, but because people who just end up with them will like seeing timely updates and devices that continue to get better and better. If you want to help the rise of affordable, quality devices then steer others toward them when you can and buy them yourself when it's time for something new.

Also, people on xda do not see development as a "work", they see it as a hobby...
So even if all the phones were on the latest android, the dev community here at Xda would still be hard at "work" to come up with something better...something which the OEM's and Google couldn't think of implementing even with such large resources at their disposal...
And let's face it, apart from games, the general public in large doesn't have "need" for BETTER phones...
I've seen the likes of HTC One X and Galaxy S3 go in the hands of people for whom multitasking would mean chatting on whatsapp while waiting for the fb app to load...
So the question would arise, if the public doesn't "need" better phones, how do we sell it to them?
The answer becomes clear, stop giving them updates...make them feel that their device is outdated...that they "need" a NEW and BETTER phone...
The ones who understand the capability of their phone would have the ability, or more importantly, the will to make the updates happen...
For the rest, well there's fancy advertising...
Hope this clears up...
- Via xda premium

Yeah, I suppose it makes sense. Thanks guys!

How many people are there using Android? About 60% of the market, which means hundred milion users How many members do we have here on XDA? Less than hundred thousands! It means that regular users dont know and dont care what OS they use or even dont know what the update is. Froyo, GB, ICS, JB sound like alien languages for most of regular users. For those who know wat they are using, they are already XDA members, the rest just doesnt care or they just simply buy an iCrapple. Therefore, there is no way you can stop that. Customers are always taken granted by companies.
Sent from my SGH-T989 using xda app-developers app

Extreemly well put. We all knew it but didn't say anything. I am awaiting the next nexus for this very reason. Props to thebeastglasser

MissionImprobable said:
Again, speak with your dollars. I have no doubt that Nexus sales will continue to climb
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The bundling is too strong with this market. When there are literally only one or two phone brands, usually otherwise sub-par, that are stock, the voting with dollars won't make much of a difference. It's like voting in an election where a lot of people who might prefer a pure candidate are given tons of reasons to go with more mainstream ones.
So how can change actually be effected? First and most obviously, google might dictate to motorola to make stock phones. Hopefully, that will happen and stock android will start getting a positive reputation for straightforward and automatic upgrades.
The other option starts at grassroots levels: this bundling leaves a gap in the market, and eventually someone should step in to fill that gap. I can imagine small start ups in third-world countries (where price is a real issue) revitalizing older brands with the highest supported cyanogenmod, then selling them at still relatively low prices for a profit. If there is enough demand for this, this "repackaging" business would be emulated all over and the OEMs might start to take a hint.

For the record there are over four million members on XDA...

thebeastglasser said:
For the record there are over four million members on XDA...
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Click to collapse
Not currently active users though. Remember XDA used to make you register to download files so that jacked up the member rate.

thebobp said:
The bundling is too strong with this market. When there are literally only one or two phone brands, usually otherwise sub-par, that are stock, the voting with dollars won't make much of a difference. It's like voting in an election where a lot of people who might prefer a pure candidate are given tons of reasons to go with more mainstream ones.
So how can change actually be effected? First and most obviously, google might dictate to motorola to make stock phones. Hopefully, that will happen and stock android will start getting a positive reputation for straightforward and automatic upgrades.
The other option starts at grassroots levels: this bundling leaves a gap in the market, and eventually someone should step in to fill that gap. I can imagine small start ups in third-world countries (where price is a real issue) revitalizing older brands with the highest supported cyanogenmod, then selling them at still relatively low prices for a profit. If there is enough demand for this, this "repackaging" business would be emulated all over and the OEMs might start to take a hint.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The Chinese market is already doing that, and with brand new phones that come both rooted and sometimes unlocked. Yes, there are other markets in which this can be done, but it doesn't make sense to talk on the one hand about voting with dollars not making a difference and then saying third-world resellers will change the game.
Google is marketing a clean, recognizable line in their Nexus devices, advertising intelligently, and making sure that they continue to stay on the latest firmware. Supporting them and other companies who do so will dictate what model corporations follow. Again, HTC is eating crow because their abandonment of the dev community and their decision to spread themselves thin, ala Motorola, who are also being dug out of a hole now by Google. I'd say both companies have paid the price for ignoring what the marketplace demands.
Moto had everyone hooked with the original Droid so there is no doubt that share is won or lost by how you approach relevancy for the long run. Go back and look at how many people loved their OG Droids in every way but have now moved on to other brands because of locked bootloaders and lack of firmware updates on the models that followed. Money makes the corporate world go round and every little bit helps.
Grassroots movements have done everything from keeping the iPhone legal to jailbreak to getting a man his goodies when a WP store tried to pull a fast one in regards to him winning the WP challenge to getting VZ to clarify that they wouldn't be doing anything to their Unlimited users. We may not be the majority, but we are far more organized and informed than the masses and as such what we do gets noticed and picked up on by tech, blog, and news coverage. The only ones who don't make change happen are the naysayers who sit by and do nothing. Support the brands that support the customers and devs.

MissionImprobable said:
The Chinese market is already doing that, and with brand new phones that come both rooted and sometimes unlocked. Yes, there are other markets in which this can be done, but it doesn't make sense to talk on the one hand about voting with dollars not making a difference and then saying third-world resellers will change the game.
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Click to collapse
Sure voting makes sense.. if you're in another country where the election's not as rigged.
MissionImprobable said:
Again, HTC is eating crow because their abandonment of the dev community and their decision to spread themselves thin, ala Motorola, who are also being dug out of a hole now by Google. I'd say both companies have paid the price for ignoring what the marketplace demands.
Moto had everyone hooked with the original Droid so there is no doubt that share is won or lost by how you approach relevancy for the long run. Go back and look at how many people loved their OG Droids in every way but have now moved on to other brands because of locked bootloaders and lack of firmware updates on the models that followed. Money makes the corporate world go round and every little bit helps.
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Click to collapse
I'm not really convinced that Motorola's and HTC's losses were due to locked bootloaders, or even lack of firmware updates. Rather, I think it's due to brand inertia: at some point, Samsung came up with a phone (the Galaxy S2) that was so far ahead of anything else on the market at the time, that they just grabbed market share and brand loyalty from many of the consumers on the market. This has little to do with the Galaxy Nexus, and indeed their "next big thing" has been the horribly backward (from a stock perspective) S3 and the Note.

It's been my perception that there is a strong correlation between developer support and whatever device I want to get next.
When I got my very first phone, it was the Samsung Captivate.
It had (Still has) great dev support. I decided not to wait a month to get the Moto Atrix because, there was no predicting what kind of dev support it would have despite having great specs. I find that (generally speaking) Samsung phones have had strong dev support.
I sort of hate to point this out.. But, if you think the "average consumer" cares about upgrades.. I would be inclined to disagree. A lot of people do care about upgrades.. Myself, my girlfriend, a lot of people who frequent forums in general.
Still, your average consumer is probably more concerned with the screen size than the software it's packing. Even if ICS is "nicer" and "more elegant" there are a lot of people who really don't know or even care what OS their phone is running. As long as they can text and check facebook, they aren't going to be bothered with the small details of "Jellybean" or "ICS"
I have to be completely honest when I admit, if I were a manufacturer.. I don't honestly know how inclined I would be to release OS updates. Not because I want to be an evil corporation and force you to upgrade to get the newest OS.. But, because putting it plain and simply.. It takes time, energy, and money to release an update. If *ANYTHING* goes wrong with the update and even a single person doesn't follow the instructions.. It becomes really hard to prove they are the one at fault. So you spend your time and energy making an update, potentially having more cost incurred due to possibly damaged hardware, and then finally.. wondering how many people really cared in the first place. A lot of people don't care and even won't upgrade their phone because, they perceive it as "a pointless endeavor."

thebobp said:
Sure voting makes sense.. if you're in another country where the election's not as rigged.
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Click to collapse
What does this have to do with supporting companies that support us? Voting with your dollars is a metaphor; it doesn't mean that there is an election for phones.