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Hey everyone,
Have you been annoyed lately with the maket? Like how alot of times when downloading apps just hangs? Or like how it takes down apps that are "against" carriers TOC? And takes 30% of the profits from devs for paid apps?
Well we just had this random idea yesterday and it was to make a new market...
This market will be for the community by the community.
Such as the ability to blacklist apps/devs..
And advanced searching...
etc...
Its called AppWire http://appwire.org (as you see the sites not made yet ;D )
We just had this idea yesterday so its still in its infant stage, so we still need all app dev's and web dev's we can get!
If you can't help with developement then feel free to post feature requests!
If you want help with development email me at aakashbpatel [at] gmail.com or look for us in the #appwire channel on freenode.
Thanks Everyone!
I think there's already something similar to this. Forgot its name though. But I do agree Google's policy of removing apps that violate *one* carrier's TOS is ridiculous.
So, lemme get this right - you complain that apps are being removed because they are against the carrier TOC, but one of the features you want to build into your market is the ability to blacklist apps/devs?
Sorry, but the Android market really isn't THAT bad. Sure, annoying at times, but 99% of the time it works, plus I don't think 30% is that excessive at all.
ScottC said:
So, lemme get this right - you complain that apps are being removed because they are against the carrier TOC, but one of the features you want to build into your market is the ability to blacklist apps/devs?
Sorry, but the Android market really isn't THAT bad. Sure, annoying at times, but 99% of the time it works, plus I don't think 30% is that excessive at all.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Blacklist apps ONLY if people vote to take it off...
Thanks
Aakash
How many Markets do we really need? We already have the official Market, AndAppStore, SlideME, and several other places to purchase apps. The more Markets there are, the more difficult it is to distribute apps. And users simply need to go more places to find the same stuff. Maybe if we make a real effort with Google to get changes implemented everyone will be better off. Just my opinion.
nEx.Software said:
How many Markets do we really need? We already have the official Market, AndAppStore, SlideME, and several other places to purchase apps. The more Markets there are, the more difficult it is to distribute apps. And users simply need to go more places to find the same stuff. Maybe if we make a real effort with Google to get changes implemented everyone will be better off. Just my opinion.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I agree with you also, and I was looking at slidme's TOC's and it pretty muc said that they own your app if you publish it....and I didn't think it was right that they have the ability to do that.
So I wanted to make a market that everyones opinion matters and one that respects the app developers also.
ScottC said:
So, lemme get this right - you complain that apps are being removed because they are against the carrier TOC, but one of the features you want to build into your market is the ability to blacklist apps/devs?
Sorry, but the Android market really isn't THAT bad. Sure, annoying at times, but 99% of the time it works, plus I don't think 30% is that excessive at all.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
the blacklist would be custom to each person not market wide, like if I didnt want to see apps by "DEV A" ONLY I wouldn't see apps by DEV A, alls "99%" of the time, i think thats pushing it i must not use market often or maybe you are on the lucky side.
Its not that bad of an idea, if anyone has experience with ipod touch or iphone, it could be set up something like cydia. A user customizable market in which apps that the normal market wont allow are easier available and such. Though, the blacklist should be just like on a personal basis or not there at all as it would defeat the purpose of the whole thing for more freedom. I think thats kinda what he was suggesting, if so not to bad.
Great idea, totally support!
More options is better. And right now I don't know any "markets" where I can easily download wifi-tether for example. Plus the original market luck of web-interface and (really) many other features. So, for me an alternative market seems like a good idea. It just doesn't look for me like an easy project
there is another one but that one sucks!
this seems like a cool idea for hardcore root access apps and apps that people dont want googles paws on in general
ScottC said:
So, lemme get this right - you complain that apps are being removed because they are against the carrier TOC, but one of the features you want to build into your market is the ability to blacklist apps/devs?
Sorry, but the Android market really isn't THAT bad. Sure, annoying at times, but 99% of the time it works, plus I don't think 30% is that excessive at all.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Im kinda on the fence on the "blacklist" issue. On one hand, it is the right of the developer to develop applications for this platform, and to release his/her work on the market to be used/previewed/rated/commented/purchased by other users. It is also their right to be paid for their efforts. On the other hand, I certainly agree that assaulting the market with 10 different $5 slideshows a day, is verging on MALICIOUS. Seriously, ive never even DOWNLOADED anything put out by Khalid Shaik, yet im sure that none of these slideshows take more than 15 or 20 minutes to produce, i bet not even that long. And $4.99?!?!?!?!?!?!?! SINCE WHEN is a slideshow about Swine Flu worth $5 bucks?! This guy just wants to take advantage of people who havent caught onto him yet. His apps arent worth FREE, much less actual money...you couldnt pay me enough to download anything from him. It IS NOT the right of ANY developer to flood the market with apps of this nature. If you wanna make a slideshow and put it out on the market thats fine...if you worked harder on it than most, then charge a dollar for it...thats fine, too... But dont put out the same damn app 16 times, only with the sounds and images changed, and expect that you have the right to charge $5 bucks apiece again and again and again for the same lame crap.
i like this idea, possible features:
o a root/dev component where devs can post beta releases of apps for root phones to be tested and used by advanced g1 users without it being buried, which tends to happen in the android market.
o a tagging feature for apps in addition to categories for easier searching.
o maybe in addition to apps, this can be a place to download roms and stuff.
o a separate widget category or maybe have a section for categorized apps and a section for categorized widgets.
as far as actual implementation you can do it a couple of ways:
1)an actual market app, like the android market
2)maybe easier to pull off initially, a well organized, mobile ready website
3)i personally think a widget component would be cool, paired with either one of the earlier options. the widget could give people recently added apps, updates on existing apps or in preferred categories/tags, and people can use the widget to navigate to a website or a corresponding app.
i think this would be a good opportunity for a community of experienced users like xda to pool a lot of knowledge and resources together in one place.
anyways, i'm looking forward to what you guys come up with.
I have no need for a new market, per se.
what I'd love to see is the ability for anyone and everyone to host their own apk repository and a more robust package management system on the device
apt, yum, emerge, port, w/e
anyone working on something like that? can I help?
i like the idea there are a few devs that i would like to the ability to block seeing apps from, Khalid Shaik, and RSD themes, to name two. both "Developers" are just using the market as a money making scheme, and it's rdiculous to put out ten apps a day to try and milk money from unsespecting souls. i spoke to RSD personally about slowing down his output of "apps"(mostly ahome and openhome themes) and he said that he would do no such thing because he makes $1500 a month. he then offered to make me a theme and i was downright insulted. i like the idea the android market has of being able to email the devs whenever we look at the app, it makes asking question a whole lot easier.
and possibly a way to mark certain apps as spam if the dev is posting ten soundboard/fart apps a day and with enough users posting the dev/apps as spam the dev can recieve one warning to slow down on releasing his/her apps or be taken off the market
bmfc187 said:
Im kinda on the fence on the "blacklist" issue. On one hand, it is the right of the developer to develop applications for this platform, and to release his/her work on the market to be used/previewed/rated/commented/purchased by other users. It is also their right to be paid for their efforts. On the other hand, I certainly agree that assaulting the market with 10 different $5 slideshows a day, is verging on MALICIOUS. Seriously, ive never even DOWNLOADED anything put out by Khalid Shaik, yet im sure that none of these slideshows take more than 15 or 20 minutes to produce, i bet not even that long. And $4.99?!?!?!?!?!?!?! SINCE WHEN is a slideshow about Swine Flu worth $5 bucks?! This guy just wants to take advantage of people who havent caught onto him yet. His apps arent worth FREE, much less actual money...you couldnt pay me enough to download anything from him. It IS NOT the right of ANY developer to flood the market with apps of this nature. If you wanna make a slideshow and put it out on the market thats fine...if you worked harder on it than most, then charge a dollar for it...thats fine, too... But dont put out the same damn app 16 times, only with the sounds and images changed, and expect that you have the right to charge $5 bucks apiece again and again and again for the same lame crap.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
TruLuvNvrDies said:
i like this idea, possible features:
o a root/dev component where devs can post beta releases of apps for root phones to be tested and used by advanced g1 users without it being buried, which tends to happen in the android market.
o a tagging feature for apps in addition to categories for easier searching.
o maybe in addition to apps, this can be a place to download roms and stuff.
o a separate widget category or maybe have a section for categorized apps and a section for categorized widgets.
as far as actual implementation you can do it a couple of ways:
1)an actual market app, like the android market
2)maybe easier to pull off initially, a well organized, mobile ready website
3)i personally think a widget component would be cool, paired with either one of the earlier options. the widget could give people recently added apps, updates on existing apps or in preferred categories/tags, and people can use the widget to navigate to a website or a corresponding app.
i think this would be a good opportunity for a community of experienced users like xda to pool a lot of knowledge and resources together in one place.
anyways, i'm looking forward to what you guys come up with.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
tubaking182 said:
i like the idea there are a few devs that i would like to the ability to block seeing apps from, Khalid Shaik, and RSD themes, to name two. both "Developers" are just using the market as a money making scheme, and it's rdiculous to put out ten apps a day to try and milk money from unsespecting souls. i spoke to RSD personally about slowing down his output of "apps"(mostly ahome and openhome themes) and he said that he would do no such thing because he makes $1500 a month. he then offered to make me a theme and i was downright insulted. i like the idea the android market has of being able to email the devs whenever we look at the app, it makes asking question a whole lot easier.
and possibly a way to mark certain apps as spam if the dev is posting ten soundboard/fart apps a day and with enough users posting the dev/apps as spam the dev can recieve one warning to slow down on releasing his/her apps or be taken off the market
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I totally agree with you guys.
i like the idea there are a few devs that i would like to the ability to block seeing apps from, Khalid Shaik, and RSD themes, to name two. both "Developers" are just using the market as a money making scheme, and it's rdiculous to put out ten apps a day to try and milk money from unsespecting souls. i spoke to RSD personally about slowing down his output of "apps"(mostly ahome and openhome themes) and he said that he would do no such thing because he makes $1500 a month. he then offered to make me a theme and i was downright insulted. i like the idea the android market has of being able to email the devs whenever we look at the app, it makes asking question a whole lot easier.
and possibly a way to mark certain apps as spam if the dev is posting ten soundboard/fart apps a day and with enough users posting the dev/apps as spam the dev can recieve one warning to slow down on releasing his/her apps or be taken off the market
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
1,500 bucks? I don't know why someone like these sound boards ? It's really suck. 1 buck for some sounds which I can get free from internet.
I agree. I would like to see Cydia ported to G1. I have been working on getting Apt running. The part I am not sure of is building a UI for it. This was easier on the iPhone because the apps like cydia were native and not in a vm like on Android.
Thanks for all the support guys....now all we need are some more developers...anyone wanna help us?
possibly available as web developer
I'm not sure where you need more help, phone vs. web development. I may be able to help out in either case though. you can contact me at [my.xda-devs.username]@gmail.com on google talk or by email.
As far as features/requests:
This should be 100% for non paid applications, IMO. I agree with other posters that it only hurts application distribution by adding a new paid app store. Especially because I think t-mobile's 30% is quite reasonable as a distribution cost.
Instead, this app should focus on delivering the type of software that people develop here on xda-devs.
I don't think you need to black list any developers. By only offering free applications through this market, you automatically get rid of most of that spam, and instead promote more sharing. Developers already have a good place to spam crappy applications for money. The purpose here should be for homebrew/expirimental applications and to promote more community hacking.
Keeping this application open source would definitely help with the "for the community by the community" mantra.
Just my two cents..
Best Regards,
Nick
I totally agree with the idea. But I think it would be difficult to implement paid apps because they are updated through the market.
I wrote about it here: LINK
Does anyone know more about the background - from the twitter account it seems like just a general run-down and a disappointing community.
Other developers on here feel the same?
I'd love to get comments from some of the developers on here, if that is the case.
I'm not a developer but did read this already on a posting at Google+.
But you are right, moving into that direction would be very bad.
Some people think they can be rude because they stay anonymous.
Its something that happens more and more these days on the internet.
I realize it's impossible - there are 12 year olds who probably run rampant.
Seems like there is SOMETHING that can be done.
I'm as Pro-Android as they come. But at times it feels like starting a relationship with a beautiful boy/girl only to find they come with a sack load of emotional baggage.
Here's my take on it: http://andgamesdevblog.blogspot.com/2011/09/android-culture-its-own-worst-enemy.html
I am far from giving up (thick skinned) but there is a real troll culture growing and needs to be stomped out. Anonymity has it's uses but, as with everything else, has its drawbacks. What we need is troll hunters!
Paul
(aka Strangemoo)
I have seen that there are some stupid comments on the market... But not so extreme as to take down your app...
Some users is just plain stupid... I'm from Denmark, so a lot of the comments are in danish... But that devs are many times foreign and really don't look or understand the comments... But a lot of them complain about pathetic things like no app 2 sd or that some function suddenly's gone instead of just writing the dev an email about the issue and giving the app the respect it deserves... 1/5 rating is a lot of the times not justified...
Just my 2-cents...
I'm sorry but this is a silly and immature move by the developer. Receiving negative feedback, dealing with trolls and idiotic users that don't understand technology are fundamental assumptions of the internet, just like not giving out your passwords or helping Nigerian princes get their money out of Africa.
I loved ShootMe and used it for our screenshots, but I don't have a lot of empathy for people that empower others to control how they feel.
Wrote about this a few weeks back: http://www.androidstatic.com/what-shootme-removed-from-the-android-market
I work in IT support and one of the things I have to support is phones. It blows my mind how many 10-12 year old kids have nicer phones than I do because their rich mommy and daddys think their precious little angels needs the latest and greatest smart phones. I went over to a client's office a couple of months ago and he had 3 brand new Droid 2s for his kids, ranging from 10-14.
Point of all this?
In this day and age, there are so many rude little kids with nice phones all over these forums, its amazing to me anyone sticks around. Im over 40 and was raised in a different time than these self entitled children I see around here that want everything now, for free and want you to do it for them.
I cant blame the guy for leaving. A lot of times I wish I could go live on an island somewhere where I didnt have to deal with people because most of them suck.
s15274n said:
I wrote about it here: LINK
Does anyone know more about the background - from the twitter account it seems like just a general run-down and a disappointing community.
Other developers on here feel the same?
I'd love to get comments from some of the developers on here, if that is the case.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I'm not a developer, but I was a ShootMe user on my EVO 4G. When it received the upgrade to Gingerbread, the app stopped working. The developer never replied to my email and from reading comments on Market didn't reply to anyone.
He did finally released a new version of ShootMe, but you had to have a computer to use it. Also everytime your reboot your phone, you had to sync everytime with your computer.
Sent from my HTC EVO 3D using Tapatalk
Welcome to the "masses".
Want a better experience? Go smaller. Dev for Windows Phone, or Web OS, or RIM.
Once something becomes part of the main stream, you'll see the d-bags start rolling in. Even something like xda can be tarnished once it "gets too big". There is hardly a day that goes by where I don't read a thread here that doesn't make me shake my head. This used to be a highly technical forum, back when every devices was htc and running windows mobile.
The only thing that can really be done, is to work with a smaller, more appreciative community. I doubt you would get very many jerk off comments from a Windows Phone user, they are happy to get whatever they can.
All very good points. I wish I had put a little into my thoughts before typing that up - dev's need to be tougher AND respond to people.
s15274n said:
All very good points. I wish I had put a little into my thoughts before typing that up - dev's need to be tougher AND respond to people.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
As a android developer IMHO the android community is as bad as they come. Xda for example used to be a place of collaboration. Currently its a place where maybe .1% do dev, .9% appreciate the development and try to help, 99% ether complain or say nothing at all. Whether the development is for free or profite(which I won't evev get into here) how is a developer supposed to work off of that? Users would rather right a comment blasting a developer who has literally spent days of his life on some product without even attempting to resolve the issue themselves.
I'm not saying some complaints are not warranted, just saying flip the coin around and its not so hard to understand the developers standpoint.
Sent from my Xoom using Tapatalk
There is no denying that there is frustration on both sides. This frustration seems to stem from expectation, communication and control.
The developer expects their customers to be civil.
The users expects the developers to devote anything between some to all of their resources/free time building/making their products better.
Both are unreasonable expectations if you think about it.
Civility can only be maintained in a mediated environment - the Android Market seems only concerned about brand and copyright issues. Google seems to think that it's ok to put its developer behind chicken-wire with lights in their eyes whilst their customers are free to hurl beer bottles at them. Dealing with anony-trolls is time consuming and offputting.
Developers range from teenagers with spare time on their hands up to multi-million dollar development studios. I, myself, am a father of three, I work a full week (we've got to eat!) and I code when time permits. Even though I respond to every request put to my apps, if you think that I'm going to compromise the balance of other areas of my life to put in a bug fix - think again. Sure, some of the more effluent businesses can throw more resources into a project, but just bare in mind that most of us are just people and not doormats. Respect and encouragement is all it takes to make the market a happy place. Flaming just ruins things for all (on both sides).
Communication between devs and end users is and most likely always will be a bit of a sticking point. The fact that everyone has their own opinions, likes, dislikes kind of makes it obvious that there will never be an app with 100% 5 stars. Even the most popular apps on the market have ratings across the board. Though, admittedly, some of the low grades may be down to trolling - but some of them will be genuine. Communication takes time. From a user, it may take a couple of minutes out of their day. For the dev, they may have hundreds a day to deal with. This takes them away from the development that the mail is probably asking for!
A user doesn't, and should never have control over the developer. They should, however, be able to request, beg, plead *nicely*. If they get frustrated then they should remember the phrase 'you get what you pay for'. The developer doesn't get any money when you bought your phone - so don't think they have any obligation to give you something for nothing. If it's a paid app, then the developer is saying 'yes, I'll support it.' That's fair sport.
The developer should have some control over their customers in the sense that a shopkeeper can choose who they let in their shops. Unfortunately they have none. They can't even moderate the comments on the market. I've had a 'GAY - Pointless, uninstall' (his words, not mine) on a free app downloaded 12,000 times and has a 4* rating. I can't do anything about it. It always appears when people go to the page. This individual has hurt my app and me without provocation. I didn't ask anything from them. Fortunately, the following message pointed out that the 'Pointless' user was an idiot (thanks XZombie), hopefully it will negate some of the damage. We're completely at the mercy of the masses, and being a relatively new dev, it's a scary place to be!
It's a shame that the most influential party in all of this is hiding behind a wall of silence.
If you're interested - I'm keeping a track of my experience of Android development. The link is in my earlier post.
Paul
Strangemoo
Paul, I do agree with you to a point. But I'm not sure if I like about developers editing comments. But I do see what you mean about people leaving dumb comments for an app that does work.
Sent from my HTC EVO 3D using Tapatalk
Katt,
I don't suggest developers could edit comments - that would make the process equally pointless, as devs can put all of the 'nice' things they want in the description anyway. Sorry if I implied otherwise.
Devs should be able to either remove, request for removal or even block the rogue elements. At present, we have to just live with the insults with no way to disprove their claims. Even a 'troll flag' would be an improvement - to show other users that the dev disagrees with the comment.
All accountability is on the devs whereas trolls can run freely.
Do any other devs out there agree with me on this? Others may have had a much more dealings with such than I have.
Cheers,
Paul
IMO if google was smart they would allow for a limited ammount(% of total) of "submissions" of there comments to a third party(google). If they are found outlandish they can be removed.
My 2 cents lol. I can say as a dev of a few apps on the market I have gotten rediculous comments n 1 stars b4. I mean if they are justified that's a different thing entirely. But my 1 stars are disproportionally higher then the trend of the others. Which proves one thing...
Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk
This is an honestly great thread. Good initiative to |OP|
Taking down an app just because of a few nasty comments is just
childish and quite frankly pathetic.
Seems that developer has chucked his toys out the pram, if he does
decide to release it again who is going to trust such a developer?
I know I wouldn't use the app again, seeing as he's stuck 2 fingers up
to loyal users and the whole android community all because of a small
minority of people.
The whole thing stinks of the guy thinking he is above any kind of bad
feedback, obviously a developer that doesn't listen to the users of his
app and a developer that turns his back at the drop of a hat.
I'm sure he will be missed... Not
Ps. there are better screenshot apps out there
I agree with your comment. Though I am not a dev. I have experience working in the retail end of software. This is a I want it now society, folks forget that they got this software/app for free and as soon as they have a little issue they fly off the deep end cussing out the maker/distribitor of the product. Anyhow like you said you get what you pay for.LIke in my IT course in school my book said "check the dummy behind the keyboard" anyhow thanks for the great apps i use the time flies app.
If a dev dropped his customers because of a couple of snide comments then, yeah, I'd agree with you.
But was that the case for ShootMe?
Before we start flinging hooks around here, wouldn't it be more productive to actually find out what happened first.
I may be proven wrong here, but the guy must've been given some serious grief to take such a newsworthy action.
In fact, that's not been mentioned - it could be media storming. Drum up enough publicity and come back blazing. Only time will tell on that one.
At the end of the day, it's his property. And if he makes a lot of people unhappy that's his prerogative. The reason he's giving though are indeed a real issue the community needs to address.
The plot thickens.
(Glad you like Times Flies! You're most welcome)
Paul
I've noticed that the flavor of a community will vary a lot by device. The Captivate community seems to be generally good and helpful for the most part, but I've heard horror stories of ungratefulness and rudeness about communities around other devices. It may be the same sort of thing with different varieties of apps. If people feel like an app performs a function they deserve outright, they may be less inclined to courtesy and more inclined to selfish expectation.
I just need to vent. I'm a fairly active developer for the android platform. I've created a number of kernel patches and applications that I have released at no charge to the community for about 10 or so devices.
All this I do in my "spare time", which I have very little of because I am a full time professional student who takes on 32 credit hour semesters.
Recently, since my 1994 geo prizm is literally falling apart and I was hoping to scrounge together a little bit of money to get a new car so I don't end up stranded on my way to class, I decided to release a paid application. Fastcharge / Force AC toggle which allows you to toggle on and off the force AC feature. A feature which I have personally implemented and released source patches for on a number of devices.
Not only in every thread where I released the patch on a device did I write up how to toggle the feature through the command line, but I also stated that I also implemented a toggle into my completely free application that you can also download from the market, IncrediControl.
In good faith and knowing how annoying licensing is, I elected to not include licensing in my application. This is a huge regret.
Within a couple days of releasing the application to the market I googled it to see if anyone was talking about it. One of the first links was to a piracy site where a user was requesting the widget, to which another user obliged and posted the apk to a filesharing site. Doing something I never though I would have to do, I filed a DMCA takedown request, which was answered quickly and the app was taken down. Monitoring the thread, every single time a link gets taken down, another user requests the app and the original user reuploads it, most recently to 11 different sites.
So now, after filing dozens of takedown requests. This user has decided to unzip my apk, change out the artwork, and now is going around releasing it as his own work.
Really, all this to avoid paying $1.50 (only ~$1 of it actually going to me) to an individual whose yearly income is low enough that he doesn't have to file taxes?
This disgusts me.
This is even worse than the 50% "order cancellation rate" that the widget has. I'm not stupid, I know exactly what users are doing, but yet initially I was willing to ignore it. But this has gone too far.
What is even the point of pissing off a developer so much that he is considering saying screw the platform all together? It doesn't even make sense. We, the developers improve your devices, generally at little or no cost, and this is how we're repaid. With ~50% of current users of the application having pirated it. To avoid paying just over $1.
Now before someone even counters with the "my area doesn't support paid applications" argument I've actually gladly GIVEN the widget away to a number of users who casually mentioned in the release threads that they couldn't download it for this reason. Not to mention, everyone knows there are apps that unlock the market in these areas to be able to purchase apps.
How much more generous can a developer be than to provide source code patches for a feature, provide information on how to toggle the feature, provide a COMPLETELY FREE way to toggle the feature, and then charge a measly $1.50 for a secondary, slightly more convenient way to toggle.
Yet he's repaid like this .
Of course, this must suck for a developer like you. Unfortunately, it seems to happen more and more often, and all I can really say is:
I would gladly pay a few bucks for an application like IC or BootManager. That BootManager seemed really interesting, but we can't buy apps from the Play Store without CC (and as a 16-year old, I don't have one). I asked the developer if he accepted Paypal, but he didn't.
Don't get me wrong, and this is not an attack to you personally: developers, if you made something really nice, and people will like it, 70% of the people will gladly pay for it, just make sure you allow them to.
Chaosz-X said:
70% of the people will gladly pay for it, just make sure you allow them to.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I honestly thought this was the case. It's really not. The problem is much worse than that. If 70% of users in the root community paid for apps it would be astonishing. Its made pretty clear by the number of users who download the app, back it up and then cancel the order.
If a 16 year old kid had made me that offer, the e-mail reply I sent would have the apk attached.
Well, that is a real flaw of Android: tweakability is really impressing, but these things make it really difficult to earn some money as a developer.
We have been thinking about anti-piracy measures as well, with stuff such as authentication with a server, and locking down the code and verifying integrity of APKs and stuff to make sure it's really hard to mess with the code, but it's just sad that there's a need for these measures..
The trouble is everything has piracy right from movies to game consoles through to mobiles and music.
I mean the iPhones appstore would be a hell of a lot bigger if there was no jailbreaking and installous.
Every platform has been cracked so you'll get it regardless of what you develop for.
Sent from my HTC Desire using XDA
I think you know you just needed to vent but can I change your picture.
There are some people in this world who just don't buy the idea of an idea as property. That's not compatible with this business model. That's the first problem.
The next problem is that
there's a million and one apps out there and which one are we going to choose? Where does it start, where does it end? We all have our limits. What's yours?
For me, the app has to be something very unique and possible generate me cash. For example something I use every day at work. If it's something that the phone should do anyway I tend to skip it and save the $1 for the next phone that does it out of the box. Your app is a great thing, but there's many utility apps out there. It just doesn't fall into the kind of thing I'd cave my strict budgeting for. There are people here with a 1000 apps installed and you expect them to pay $1000 in this sense.
Another way would be having utility in the cloud and then the app is free. Another one of course, advertising.
The difference with both of these is we don't need to risk a credit card with the market. That's the main reason I personally haven't bought many apps and I'd imagine it's a problem for minors too.
The very community that allowed us to create the app fails to pay for it's products is like life itself.
I'd say make something for the iphone instead because there's more profit there but that would never have been possible, see what I'm saying? That's the 3rd problem.
So you've got 3 problems there all converging into one big push towards piracy. But remember, can your app assure security that the pirated version cannot for example? This is how one has to think.
In short,
you can't do something and hope to make a bit from it on the side. You got to go out from the start and get the money aspect central from the start. I mean, that's business and of course that's exactly what the android community works hard to free us from.
Still, summarising those 3 points for suggestion:
- offer something free things can't (i.e. security, brand etc) For example, I never run pirated stuff for fear of insecurity on my data whereas I'll try out software that way on an old PC
- can always put a service in the cloud aka the javascript trap
- iphone is there if you want...
- needs to "the one app" a certain person would pay for, not something everyone likes
Also just to make that point again, if one does not believe in property then inconveniently there is no moral crime here. I suggest learn to live with this and go with the flow
I hope google sells PlayStore cards (like itunes cards) that allows user to buy apps, music, movies, books without a credit card. I really want to buy some amazing apps but i dont have a credit card so i just use free apps. I think that if u cant buy an app that cant be a reason to piracy or sidedownload that app.
jago25_98 said:
For me, the app has to be something very unique and possible generate me cash. For example something I use every day at work. If it's something that the phone should do anyway I tend to skip it and save the $1 for the next phone that does it out of the box. Your app is a great thing, but there's many utility apps out there. It just doesn't fall into the kind of thing I'd cave my strict budgeting for. There are people here with a 1000 apps installed and you expect them to pay $1000 in this sense.
Another way would be having utility in the cloud and then the app is free. Another one of course, advertising.
The difference with both of these is we don't need to risk a credit card with the market. That's the main reason I personally haven't bought many apps and I'd imagine it's a problem for minors too.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The feature is 100% unique and so is the widget. Not to mention, if you didn't want to pay the $1, I provided a free way to toggle the feature in the utility app. The point is, that there is nothing forcing people to pay for the widget to use the feature. But instead of using the free option provided, they not only pirate the paid app, but edit the artwork and release it for free as their own. It defies logic.
Also, ad based apps don't work with the rooted community. I learned that early on. Myfree utility app is ad supported. With over 40,000 installs you would think it would make even a dollar a day. Nope, makes nearly nothing. That's when I realized that the same niche I was marketing to are the same people who block ads. Even if someone didn't want to block ads, they can't install a single ROM that doesn't include an ad blocking hosts file out of the box.
chad0989 said:
[...] How much more generous can a developer be than to provide source code patches for a feature, provide information on how to toggle the feature, provide a COMPLETELY FREE way to toggle the feature, and then charge a measly $1.50 for a secondary, slightly more convenient way to toggle.
Yet he's repaid like this .
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Click to collapse
Be sure you're looking at all sides. Yes, you're in a losing war with guys intent on pirating your app. You can't stop them, and well, you goofed on the licensing, so someone will no doubt release the clone.
First of all, don't do the Big Media thing and assume that everybody that pirates your app would have paid for it if it hadn't been available. A lot of folks collect, or just try something once. You'll only work yourself into a funk thinking about all that money you "would" have if only they hadn't been able to pirate it. They wouldn't have. At least not all of them.
More importantly, be aware that placing something out there with value does reach folks that otherwise would have no idea of you or your plight. More than once, I've purchased an app that I don't really need, but found clever and cheap enough I can buy it without thinking about the investment. I've spent more on Android software at $1-15 over the last year than I did over the last 25+ at $30-100 a pop. I've only refunded an app once, by accident.
Finally, be up front about your situation. A guy trying to make do does influence my impulse buying. So does his reputation. If you're doing a lot, be sure that's clear on your app page, and let us know clearly you're the guy that also brought us whatever.
I am curious, though: How much did you actually bring in?
Chad- thanks for telling your story, I agree that you have every right to be disappointed. Especially the buying and refunding, that to me send almost worse because you can't stop dedicated pirating, but I would have hoped the rest would have bought the app.
It's easy to forget the human side of development, so thanks for sharing your side.
Jesus christ Chad. This is f$%&*#@ ridiculous. Probably the best and most generous kernel dev I have ever come into contact with, and people are cheating you out of 1.50. Please don't abandon Android. I need kernels when I get my rezound! but in all seriousness, warez needs to stop.
Sent from my ADR6400L
Yep. Sucks. After getting serious about android , which wasn't too far in, joining with a nexus one and seeing all the free HARD work we get, I definitely try buying stuff I use. If I can't pay sometimes I will see if dev does something else I can donate to. Its an issue I've thought about and part of it really boils down to how sorry people are in general. They want free and cheap. $1 is laughable even when it can be easily had for free. You really should market yourself a bit even though you don't want to. And people should really put a complimentary $5 or so budget a month or more and try to support devs. Maybe if you have something he gave free but has an app you won't use for a buck, buy the dollar app and uninstall after the 15 minute period. Or throw him a 5 through PayPal or something. Its simple really. If these devs don't have to resort to ramen and water they keep dev'ing especially for the community supporting him or her. And if they're eating vegetables and have plenty of red bull money it gives them wings. Otoh, the devs that make us pay to reinstall an app after we bought it on another or lost our phone suck. Balls. Won't buys theirs anymore.
teach a man to fish, you feed him for life. teach a man to fastboot, and you create competency. and less threads on xda.
Maybe you should implement a system like some developers do where you download the app for free with a time limited trail, then they would go to another website to pay for the app to unlock it, and the unlock codes would be unique for every user which would minimize piracy.
Sent from my GT-N7000 Samsung Galaxy Note "Go big or go home" using XDA app
rafa6571 said:
I hope google sells PlayStore cards (like itunes cards) that allows user to buy apps, music, movies, books without a credit card. I really want to buy some amazing apps but i dont have a credit card so i just use free apps. I think that if u cant buy an app that cant be a reason to piracy or sidedownload that app.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
In the Netherlands we have prepaid Visa card.
Works well.
Maybe you google something similar in your own country.
(3V prepaid Visa cards)
That does suck but if someone wants to pirate an app even licencing doesn't stop them as there is an app that apparently patches licence checks.
It is so easy for even a non root and new user to find cracked apps, I have seen links on here and even on peoples facebook sites, it's got to the point where people can just browse a webpage and click a link to get the cracked version of an app.
Unfortunately if someone wants to crack it they can. Unless you could implement your own security check somehow, something obfuscated in the code, licencing is the only alternative as it would stop people using backed up cancelled versions at least.
Unfortunately it seems a lot of people just don't want to pay for apps.
Dave
Sent from my LG P920 using Tapatalk
also have to look at both sides. some people just refuse to pay for **** whatever it is, or get it as cheaply as they can. being android apps, the free route is how they're going to go. but the other side, you hsould be grateful for all the people that do pay. they're the ones helping keeping google, open source, android and everything in between chugging along. open source is the future and you can tell every corporation i said that. and thanks for you your work even though i've never used it.
jago25_98 said:
...
Also just to make that point again, if one does not believe in property then inconveniently there is no moral crime here. I suggest learn to live with this and go with the flow
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
There is plenty to disagree with in your post as it all seems like an attempt at rationalizing ways to get around the system. This last statement is a ridiculous attempt at summarizing why stealing is OK. Your morals don't define the crime, the law does. Stealing property, physical or intellectual, is not legal and not right regardless of your morals or lack of.
Chad,
I am sorry to hear of your products' abuse. I used your kernels all the time on my Incredible devices and bought IncrediControl to support development. I have purchased many applications just to support development and believe that is the way to get high quality applications.
Piracy is just so damn easy on Android. I know ppl that are doing it who I wouldn't even expect to be doing such a thing. This guy I know love android only because he can get everything free by just googling the apk.
awww thats sad i feel really bad for you!
I've used pre paid visa debit cards to buy apps. You can find them in Any money shop like Cheque cashing places for example. You can even just stick a dicky diver (£5) on them. Perfect for situations like this
Sent from my GT-I9100 using xda premium
The short version:
Let's get Google to change the market incompatibility from "You can't have this," to "Are you sure...?" Because quite honestly why waste precious minutes downloading an APK from some unknown source that for all you know could be tempered with and wind up ****ing up your device.
The teal deer version:
There are now numerous threads regarding this issue and I think it's time we had one that was the central place for us to discuss this issue as it's too scattered about and so far all attempts at remedying the issue have been either in vain or temporary. We shouldn't have to suffer so much over something so unnecessary.
The idea is sound, sure, but its ways of going about doing so are very wrong. In the event that an app doesn't work as expected, or at least in suspicion of such, it need only be noted as a warning to the user. So instead of seeing that black bar stating that we can't have app X and have the install button disabled, we should see that same black bar but with a warning and the install button enabled irregardless.
If big brother is worried that because the app is known to have issues on our devices then they need only to disable the ability to rate the app for that specific user. But that's about it, as it's fairer to both parties involved. We shouldn't have to go through the hassle of having to have to keep looking for ways around something that only goes to further slow down progress, or downloading and installing APK files every time there's an update to our apps (some of which were paid for)!
We need to attack the disease at its source rather than treat the symptoms.
What the issue is basically is that "power" users prefer to use tweaked settings that the market doesn't like despite the fact that those same apps Google deems incompatible, when installed as APKs, actually work flawlessly.
I figured we should have this thread focus on the following issues:
---------------------------------------
1. Have something of a Database (or at least a simple list for now) of all the apps that El Goog doesn't want us to install. Just to emphasize the issue as there are quite a bit of apps that work flawlessly and appear in the market, while others aren't (in some cases without the developer's own wishes or knowledge for that matter). And we then label them as working 100% perfectly well or buggy under conditions Y and Z.
We make the list of all apps that are known to be incompatible and actually are! So far I've not encountered a single one. And I've been using my freak device with its freaky settings for a year+ now.
2. This is something I'm still thinking about and am not 100% sure if should be done. Start a petition on Change.org and bring this to big brother's attention as he tends to ignore the little guy. In numbers there's strength.
3. Get a list of app developers who are aware of the issue and support our cause. The reason for three is because I've been in contact with one app developer who was turned down by big brother after pursuing help with this issue because they "don't provide support for custom roms." And it's OK that they don't, as it's reasonable enough. But give us the option of opting out if you think it's wise to, and opt in even if it might cause issue. We're adults for god's sake.
4. Make a list of currently available solutions to fix the so-called 'feature' while we're waiting for an actual fix.
I'll keep this post as updated as I can with the latest known and consistently updated fixes for this 'bug'. Yeah, I said it.
---------------------------------------
So far every single app I used worked flawlessly on my I9100 running CM10 with DorimanX custom kernel. I've set the DPI to 160 and I can't imagine myself going back to anything above that. And to emphasize, I've had these setting (or at least the DPI and CM) for so long now (about a year) that I forget sometimes that I'm using something that isn't exactly 'standard', per se.
I mean, if you can live with the default dpi then that's cool, good for you. But I've had a taste of the forbidden fruit, and now I can't go back. . . .
I'm not going to start crusading just yet. First I'd like your, the community of XDA, input on this issue before we do anything. If you have any suggestions or criticism you'd like to share with us, I'd like to hear it, personally. For I may be wrong about the whole thing. Call it, lacking in confidence.
Thank you.
Reserved, just in case.
Also reserved, just in case.
Well this is fantastic. Congrats on the nerve for writing this freakishly long post. That's what I was thinking since the moment I encountered "I'm sorry, but we think this won't work as planned on your device and we deem you stupid enough to make wrong choices, so we'll just put this install button on this shelf right here, where you can't reach it" error.
However, I just said screw it, there's tons of sites where I can just download what I want without anyone questioning my motives and whether it will work or not. Never thought of it as a big deal, just as a tougher way of doing stuff, but not much I can do about it.
To get to the point, I support this cause, will sign whatever I need to sign, but am to lazy to start it myself Just wanted to give you some support. If you're willing to put some more time into this, maybe this is the beggining of a revolution! Revolution of geeks with custom DPIs! But it's still something damn it!
Cheers mate!
Sent from my Desire HD using xda app-developers app
Thank you, Uros. I was happy to read your reply.
It seems that there is no interest in this, however. Very unfortunate, but I suppose if this is what the people want. . . . It was worth a try.
Thanks for your effort.
I am rather curious to know if this is because people were going "tl;dr" or they're genuinely not interested in having this issue fixed. I just need to know so that I could make the proper adjustments.
Granted, it would take a bit longer, but as Goethe said, "I apologize in advance, had I had more time, this letter would be shorter."
Or is it that most people believe that the odds of getting Google to listen to us are too small?
There's a reason why Google won't give us the option to install anyway, just as there's a reason as to why this probably hasn't been noticed by as many people as preferred.
It all comes down to noobs.
Regarding this thread, the noobs are probably coming across this thread and click because they're interested by the title. They see all the text and think "F&#k that!". Unfortunately, that is generally the noob mentality.
Maybe colouring some of the text and spacing it out a little bit more could help the cause, but only time would tell.
Now onto the matter at hand.
I personally don't think Google will allow us to install apps anyway (even though I think they should) because noobs are super dangerous to themselves. In general, noobs won't read which then means that if they go to install an app which isn't compatible and install it anyway, they won't read that it could potentially harm their device.
The other type of user to make a mistake when it comes to installing such apps, would be the general android population. After all, us here on XDA are but a small proportion of Android users globally. Just because we have knowledge about what should and shouldn't be on our devices and how to make things work which shouldn't, the average Android user isn't the same.
They'd probably see the message and simply think "It says it could harm my phone but it's a great phone so nothing will go wrong". That is where problems can then occur.
The noobs and the average android owner would then have mucked up their device in one way or another and would be blaming and complaining to Google (as if it was Google's mistake). That makes it cause more harm than good, hence why I don't think it will happen.
Just my 2 cents, of course
''Silence is golden, but duct tape is silver''
Hi everyone,
I must confess Microsoft Launcher is my favorite third-party launcher. I like the look and feel of it, and the weather-and-clock widget looks more natural and is more accurate than all the other weather widgets I've used since I switched to Android a few years back.
However, it seems that this launcher is using much more battery than others. It may have to do with the localization service kicking in every time I wake up the screen to update the weather widget, but it also seems to tap battery out in other, more invisible ways.
Are there Microsoft Launcher users around here, who have noticed that too? If so, what did you do to improve battery life while using this launcher?
Yes, high battery consumption is a feature of this launcher, which is not just a launcher. I stopped using after the interface and settings changes happened too often. I went back to Nova (pro).
ze7zez said:
Yes, high battery consumption is a feature of this launcher, which is not just a launcher. I stopped using after the interface and settings changes happened too often. I went back to Nova (pro).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Yeah, I figured as much. Color me cheap, but paying for a launcher really irks me, because I think it goes the same as for Web browsers: they should be free, or at least offer enough of a good end-user experience without having to shell out the dough.
I know devs have to make a living and that's perfectly normal, but we're talking about an app launcher here, not some complicated pro application.
Anyway, my reasoning is probably faulty as frunk, but I'm really reluctant to pay for something like that.
Anyway, I'm going to pay more attention to Microsoft Launcher's battery consumption. I've disabled My Feed because I don't use it. I'll see what it nets me in terms of battery life.
Thanks for your input!
UglyStuff said:
Yeah, I figured as much. Color me cheap, but paying for a launcher really irks me, because I think it goes the same as for Web browsers: they should be free, or at least offer enough of a good end-user experience without having to shell out the dough.
I know devs have to make a living and that's perfectly normal, but we're talking about an app launcher here, not some complicated pro application.
Anyway, my reasoning is probably faulty as frunk, but I'm really reluctant to pay for something like that.
Anyway, I'm going to pay more attention to Microsoft Launcher's battery consumption. I've disabled My Feed because I don't use it. I'll see what it nets me in terms of battery life.
Thanks for your input!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Lawnchair 12 launcher is also very good if you don't want to buy Nova launcher pro features
UglyStuff said:
Y
Spoiler: post
eah, I figured as much. Color me cheap, but paying for a launcher really irks me, because I think it goes the same as for Web browsers: they should be free, or at least offer enough of a good end-user experience without having to shell out the dough.
I know devs have to make a living and that's perfectly normal, but we're talking about an app launcher here, not some complicated pro application.
Anyway, my reasoning is probably faulty as frunk, but I'm really reluctant to pay for something like that.
Anyway, I'm going to pay more attention to Microsoft Launcher's battery consumption. I've disabled My Feed because I don't use it. I'll see what it nets me in terms of battery life.
Thanks for your input!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I bought in a promotion for 0.99, after using the free version for a year.
I believe that any application that does not impose ads on me is worth the small fee.
UglyStuff said:
Yeah, I figured as much. Color me cheap, but paying for a launcher really irks me, because I think it goes the same as for Web browsers: they should be free, or at least offer enough of a good end-user experience without having to shell out the dough.
I know devs have to make a living and that's perfectly normal, but we're talking about an app launcher here, not some complicated pro application.
Anyway, my reasoning is probably faulty as frunk, but I'm really reluctant to pay for something like that.
Anyway, I'm going to pay more attention to Microsoft Launcher's battery consumption. I've disabled My Feed because I don't use it. I'll see what it nets me in terms of battery life.
Thanks for your input!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
"reasoning is probably faulty as frunkv"
Blatantly, and your intellect is on display using the MS launcher and trying to find solutions for it.
People like you dont just need to think before they speak, they need to research.
TimmyP said:
"reasoning is probably faulty as frunkv"
Blatantly, and your intellect is on display using the MS launcher and trying to find solutions for it.
People like you dont just need to think before they speak, they need to research.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Well, I'm certainly glad I entertained you. Thanks for your input.
Everything that is developed has work put into it. It really irks me the wrong way when someone just randomly states they believe certain software should be free followed by some asinine "its just a launcher not some..."
Same thing when people fault developers for not being open source, demanding they post the source on github for something like an emulator which just blows my mind completely. Its just such a blatant and ignorant display of entitlement...
I could point out you're wrong in more ways than one, but that would be a waste of time, I presume. I develop ad-hoc software for companies, mostly console/CLI jobs to crunch numbers in relation to database management (statistics, probabilities, etc...), and I do get paid FOR SOME OF IT.
Not ALL OF IT.
SOME OF IT.
Why? Because the purpose of some of my work is to facilitate other people's jobs, and it's deeply appreciated. I could wrap a nice eye-candy GUI around what I do, package it nicely and sell it... Or not.
Most devs I know don't do dev to get outrageously rich. They do dev for the challenge, to learn how to code better, and yes, because they want to help other, not very fortunate people.
Otherwise, why would there be free Web browsers, office suites, PDF-editing tools, video encoding software, and so on, and so forth?
If you are a good developer and you want to make money, good for you, and I wish you the very best, but free software, open-source or otherwise, serves a purpose.
You've got to give a little to get a little.
Wow you have got to have some major social issues. I dont even know how to respond to that.
You have some very serious issues dude. I wont be responding to your nonsense or propagating your personal problems. Get help please.
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A reminder to all members, especially those who may have forgotten that you are on a sharing forum.
This is about sharing ideas, solutions, helping and not being nasty in the answers.
Here is a reminder of the rules of conduct on this forum.
2. Member conduct.
2.1 Language: XDA is a worldwide community. As a result, what may be OK to say in your part of the world, may not be OK elsewhere. Please don't direct profanity, sexually explicit language or other offensive content toward Members or their work. Conversely, while reading posts from other members, remember that the word you find offensive may not be offensive to the writer. Tolerance is a two-way street.
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I think these are simple rules to know and apply.
So I invite all those who have forgotten them to reread them and apply them for .... ad vitam eternam
I hope that no mod will have to take sanctions in the future.
Have a good time on xda and good sharing
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Moderator
UglyStuff said:
paying for a launcher really irks me, because I think it goes the same as for Web browsers: they should be free, or at least offer enough of a good end-user experience without having to shell out the dough.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
UglyStuff said:
my reasoning is probably faulty as frunk
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
You have answered yourself there.
Every work requires time and effort. It is very strange to expect something to be free when you understand that. That really would be called 'entitlement' which has absolutely no justification.
UglyStuff said:
Most devs I know don't do dev to get outrageously rich. They do dev for the challenge, to learn how to code better, and yes, because they want to help other, not very fortunate people.
Otherwise, why would there be free Web browsers, office suites, PDF-editing tools, video encoding software, and so on, and so forth?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
As a developer yourself, you probably already know that a majority of so called free stuff aren't really free. They are just a means to collect data and earn revenue through advertising or tracking.
UglyStuff said:
free software, open-source or otherwise, serves a purpose.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That purpose need not necessarily be for the benefit of the consumer. Open source is a just as risky as closed source because:
1. There is no one auditing the software continuously. One can always release an open source malware that can do a lot of damage before being caught.
2. There is zero accountability, because developers are often anonymous.
Well, to each his/her own, I guess. All I know is, given the chance, I would contribute again to some free software project, especially if it's open-source.
(And by the way, you're wrong about open-source being more dangerous than closed-source, because there IS some auditing being performed on a regular basis, and since the code is readily available, anyone can contribute and point out what's wrong with it, if anything.
Software companies that chose the proprietary route are more prone to sweep the dust under the rug than open-source vendors, precisely because no one really knows what's inside their code. You know what they say, about how you don't wanna know how sausages are made? Well, there you have it.)
Anyway, thanks for your input. Let's consider this topic as solved and closed, since the battery life on my 9 is better now that I have disabled my Feed.
Cheers guys, and don't let bitterness invade your heart! 🫶
What is happening to society? The passage of knowledge? This sort of thing is happening everywhere, and its ruining everything.
*Like Uglystuff you are being blatantly insulting to potentially millions of people rn. Do you just not care?