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Dear all,
Due to the proliferation of new ROM's, the Wizard forum is in need of a bit of housekeeping. The mods cannot do this alone, so we are asking for your help.
1) The four most used kitchens have been stickied for the moment and questions regarding any ROM's you cook based on these kitchens should be posted in the appropriate thread. Please do not start a separate thread. Anichillus Core Professional kitchen is also found in the Development and Hacking forum since it is used for multiple devices and is beyond the scope of many basic users. Users beware. I may de-sticky the kitchens upon further discussions with the mods, but right now the structure will stand as it is.
2) On the same note, I'm asking for kitchen authors to notify me or other mods concerning useless posts in these threads (e.g. Why didn't you include "x" application? or posts that are inflammatory or non-technical in nature). They will promptly be deleted as we shouldn't have to wade through 20 posts of BS to get to relevant tech info.
3) All of the kitchens stickied are based wholly or in part on Bepe's tools and are of the same basic architecture. Therefore no more kitchens will be stickied unless they are truly unique or offer a substantially more comprehensive interface.
4) Also, it's sometimes better for a lot of people to refine one ROM than for a few people to refine a lot of ROM's. I know there are a thousand aspiring cooks out there right now since the kitchens have been released. You may be tempted to release your own ROM to the masses either because you think it's a great ROM or because you want to be known around the board. Resist the temptation. Unless your ROM offers a very innovative user experience (e.g. Touch), it is not likely to get a huge following and might just cause more confusion for the non-developers on this board, you might do better to try to collaborate with some fellow developers in creating a very good ROM.
5) MOST IMPORTANTLY (and you know who I'm talking to). Some people have repeatedly posted in this forum despite the fact that their posts had nothing to do with Windows Mobile 6 specific issues on the Wizard (i.e "My Herald..." or ("Do you have this software from a Nokia?"). We will issue 3 warnings through PM's but after that you might be up for a temporary ban. This will only happen if you're a repeat offender. Heck we've all posted in the wrong place at one point or another. If possible we may move the post to a more appropriate location but it would save everyone a lot of work and aggravation if the posts are made in the correct forum.
I hope this helps a bit. If you have suggestions for how we can make this place better, please air them here. If you have a complaint with a mod, please PM me first. I don't like public conflict and most of you don't either.
jwzg said:
Dear all,
5) MOST IMPORTANTLY (and you know who I'm talking to)..
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not nice.,...
btw.
upgrade forum to allow people REMOVE own posts/topics, first.
Users can manage, with proper USUAL forum options, too.
smells like we vs. THEM,again,.
"same architecture" - yup, yup, but why i can see potential with new user cook result, and i can't with older builds?
it is random novadays(lack of your knowledge + newbie enthusiasm can make miracles).
I agree that a strong hand is needed. For this i suggest that there should be a special part in the forum where to move threads that have no replies for hmm...30 days ...?
I don't know too much stuff about forums but i think that would mean a nasty job for you guys so...just a suggestion. Or better...delete them or move them to an sort of recycle bin.
Regarding switching to a new upgraded forum, i think that would be an immense hard work also and it will leave the community off line for few days. It may be needed to come to that soon but that's not a big problem.
But i agree that allowing people to delete their own posts would be nice. But on the other hand, considering hours i spent here reading, i kinda got used to this look
I will PM you with posts to delete but beware that i may be more strict than you and i don't want to waste your time...so i will filter myself.
And one more thing to add to this. The original "Wizard" forum has some sort of bug because whenever you open it, there arent more than two pages in it, so older posts are mysteriously made invisible though the front page at forums.xda-developers.com shows that number of threads in it are in thousands..maybe users dont post the general questions there because they think (or know) that if they dont get a reply within a day, their post is going to go into oblivion and not be answered...
nothin said:
not nice.,...
btw.
upgrade forum to allow people REMOVE own posts/topics, first.
Users can manage, with proper USUAL forum options, too.
smells like we vs. THEM,again,.
"same architecture" - yup, yup, but why i can see potential with new user cook result, and i can't with older builds?
it is random novadays(lack of your knowledge + newbie enthusiasm can make miracles).
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You are reading this wrong. I had about four or five posters who after two or three moved threads and a couple of PM's continued to post totally irrelevant posts in the Wizard Mobile 6 thread. I this was aimed at repeat offenders and not at the occasional screwup. By they way, you can modify your post or ask a mod to move it if you like. Not a big deal.
I'm not trying to be a jerk at all, but I'm not trying to be nice either. I just see the same old builds with different package combo's that anyone could make with the kitchen and a little ingenuity. However, folks like Zoki and the-equinoxe have done some fine things with the touch software that are truly innovative and add substance to the user experience. I for one have partially adapted the T-Mobile wing OEM package to the Wizard (yes camera too, but the image is transposed and my-faves doesn't work). That's true ROM cooking and not just throwing a few packages into a cooker and presto.
It is not "us" against them. It's those who have a bit more experience actually doing our best to take this forum up another level instead of settling for ssdd.
shantzg001 said:
And one more thing to add to this. The original "Wizard" forum has some sort of bug because whenever you open it, there arent more than two pages in it, so older posts are mysteriously made invisible though the front page at forums.xda-developers.com shows that number of threads in it are in thousands..maybe users dont post the general questions there because they think (or know) that if they dont get a reply within a day, their post is going to go into oblivion and not be answered...
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I'm working on this...
all the old versions of Roms should be deleted too...like the very first wm6 roms theres no need for them
shantzg001 said:
And one more thing to add to this. The original "Wizard" forum has some sort of bug because whenever you open it, there arent more than two pages in it, so older posts are mysteriously made invisible though the front page at forums.xda-developers.com shows that number of threads in it are in thousands..maybe users dont post the general questions there because they think (or know) that if they dont get a reply within a day, their post is going to go into oblivion and not be answered...
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Fixed by admin. Thanks for the heads up.
ANTC said:
all the old versions of Roms should be deleted too...like the very first wm6 roms theres no need for them
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I disagree. There is history and things that can be found in those threads... Unless XDA-Developers is hurting for space, what is actually removed needs to be really determined that it isn't something that may help. I just did a Google search (I've given up trying to use the search here, easier to use Google's advanced searching techniques in most cases) and found an answer in the original Crossbow thread from January. Just deleting stuff because its "Old" is a bad idea IMO... Getting rid of the hundreds of "Help, I bricked my phone!" threads is even questionable as I wonder how many people have fixed a phone due to those and never posted anything here...
Remember there area a LOT of people that read and never post here. Yeah, it gets old answering the same questions over and over again (so I've taken the route where I've quit answering some of those.
mfrazzz said:
I disagree. There is history and things that can be found in those threads... Unless XDA-Developers is hurting for space, what is actually removed needs to be really determined that it isn't something that may help. I just did a Google search (I've given up trying to use the search here, easier to use Google's advanced searching techniques in most cases) and found an answer in the original Crossbow thread from January. Just deleting stuff because its "Old" is a bad idea IMO... Getting rid of the hundreds of "Help, I bricked my phone!" threads is even questionable as I wonder how many people have fixed a phone due to those and never posted anything here...
Remember there area a LOT of people that read and never post here. Yeah, it gets old answering the same questions over and over again (so I've taken the route where I've quit answering some of those.
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true i guess I worded my statement wrong I ment delete old Rom threads like the different versions of roms...i have no need for my version 1-3.5 beta threads you see what i mean...and I think we should have a bricked phone help thread I even wrote a quick tut on my other site to save a bricked MDA..you understand were im getting at
Gulp - I hope I didn't start something we will all regret with my post "Why all these new WM6 ROMs?" http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=313781
Let us not forget that apart from a very few idiots this is a great place to be. I have learnt a lot from this forum considering that I do not have a background in computing.
It has even stimulated my interest to the extent that I have assembled my own computer. Didn't save me money and my wife cannot understand it but I have ended up with exactly what I wanted which a store built machine could not have given me.
I hope you understand the analogy.
Let's just make sure that "We don't throw out the baby with the bath water".
No, you didn't start anything scotch whiskey that hadn't already been brewing a bit. I think my modified OP is a little nicer, but still gets the point across.
ANTC said:
true i guess I worded my statement wrong I ment delete old Rom threads like the different versions of roms...i have no need for my version 1-3.5 beta threads you see what i mean...and I think we should have a bricked phone help thread I even wrote a quick tut on my other site to save a bricked MDA..you understand were im getting at
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I agree with both you and mfrazzz.
What if someone doesn't want to use the latest version of a ROM, they don't like some changes or whatever, they will need those older threads for reference material. Also I notice lots of people asking questions, only to be referred to older threads. There isn't any use reinventing the wheel so to speak.
I think a good idea would be for developers (or just real supportive people) to make kind of an FAQ for some of these older versions, a "best of" list of questions and answers. It can be posted in the forum, it can be on some website somewhere, or in the XDA FTP, whatever. Not only would it give people a good place to refer to, but it might also eventually lead to a cut-down of basically the same questions.
Only then would I think removing older threads be a good idea. I know that wasn't entirely the point of this thread, but hey, mr smart guy back there decided to take a shot so I am too. I for one am right in there with him, I think its THE MAN against US. Oh yes, yes it is. oh noes. <3
jonflow said:
Only then would I think removing older threads be a good idea. I know that wasn't entirely the point of this thread, but hey, mr smart guy back there decided to take a shot so I am too. I for one am right in there with him, I think its THE MAN against US. Oh yes, yes it is. oh noes. <3
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Guys, it's NOT the man against anyone. We'd just like to get some real development going on here instead of everyone releasing slightly different versions of the same ROM.
I don't like this talk
Everybody should have the right to publish his work, no matter what hi did.
The rest will judge his work and he will learn something. Only those who didn't do anything can't understand this.
Old topics should remain, I like to jump back to learn something, for new members old topics is a must.
If you must do something to show us you're administrator rights, do something good, like option to close the thread.
Zoki, no one said members can't publish their work. I just honestly believe more of it should be along the lines of what you did with the touch stuff. I truly admire your work because it was bleeding edge (still may be) and that's developing which is why this board exists. I'm not trying to flatter you here to gain your support either. It's just when people throw your name all over a splash screen it doesn't really make it their work since most all of the ROM's here are cooked using kitchens from other authors with packages from other members and yes, even HTC. If that sounds big-brother-ish, it's not intended that way. Just make sure credit is given to the quite literally hundreds of people who've made this possible. We're already having problems in other forums right now with people asking for donations in return for tech support for ROM's they've cooked with other's tools. That is one of the many issues we're trying to be proactive about here.
Regarding closing threads, I'm not an administrator, and they have chosen not to give OP's the rights to close their threads. If you want your thread closed, please PM me and I have the rights close it quickly. If you want someone else's thread closed, well, you can request it, but it may or may not happen.
BTW, the old threads were not deleted, and I strongly believe they shouldn't be. Admin simply made a mistake in a setting, and all of the old threads are visible as per our request.
As a mod, I'm just trying to do my best to make sure that we have an orderly forum and we are developing, which is the forum's purpose.
hey jwzg we aren't really calling you a bad person, we know you're looking out for us I agree though, the roms are starting to look the same except for one or two programs, and the splash screens. It would be better for people to just explain what was in a new ROM scheme they came up with, and it would encourage more people to start learning how to make their own ROMs, therefore making them more intellectual in this particular field, which is a good thing. knowledge is power. But hey its just my opinion!
jwzg said:
Guys, it's NOT the man against anyone. We'd just like to get some real development going on here instead of everyone releasing slightly different versions of the same ROM.
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just to let you know that the REAL develepor regrets now releasing the rom kitchen tools....
jonflow said:
the roms are starting to look the same except for one or two programs, and the splash screens.
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sorry i am noone for you all, my "senior" member status sounds like joke but...
everything is the same imo now, also, theres no real help lately; only people that can have answers are like "how to flash my phoooone", "did i brickeeeeed?" etc.
there's no real customisation of "custom" builds.
seems like checking some oempacks' ticks is making these current OSes special...
i can't get an answer for my problems, despite i tend to help people someOM:
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=322228
i spent MONTH to make this, and what?
nobody wants to help.
ok, clean this forum up, you may remove my babbling now....
everything i know bout wizard customisation is from that site...but now, in "touch" soft times, there's nothing that makes wizard better, just nothing.
it became playground for kids or what...
sorry for funny english, i cant do better...
i want to say thank you to:
Faria,
Anichillus,
mattk_r
jwzg
double_ofour
zoki
and many many more people that made me ..learning, not copying.
allright, time to watch another touch skin post...
Myself i've been reading most of the time, only lately did i start posting to test some bugs in builds. The issue at hand is a double edged sword. Yes i solved many problems wading through old posts. But i also solved a lot of issues just reading an entire thread. I will never be able to create a kitchen but it sure is nice knowing that when i want to i can build a rom entirely to my liking. But indeed to many Build threads these day are the same. And most of the issues handled, but then spread across multiple build threads, are mostly about the same problems. Mainly issues with specific base roms and aplication incompatibilities. I think a lot of the solving of these issues is slowed down because of the spread through topics. Maybe setting up a rule that Roms that get posted and aren't updated or have any fixes posted should not be taken seriously and can be deleted. This way less Rom versions circulate the thread and only higher quality builds by Chefs are available. Also a good rule might be to have the cooks post more info about the sources and tools used for their builds, like Kitchen used, Base used, Patches used oem packages used. So new users more easily understand that no Rom has no history. It also takes away the polish of parading with your ego. Maybe even changing the main wizard topics into
1. Kitchen Development
2. How To & Troubleshooting
3. Rom Builds testing
4. Custom Made Software & tweaks
5. Hardware and Accesoires
6. To be Deleted (either move topics or delete them when re/placed into new main topics)
Then indeed phase out unneeded old posts if the information is passed into new threads that accordingly aknowledge the sources.
What i'm trying to say is, to change the perception a bit more that this is not a Technical support site and more of a doing site.
I think the main topics can set an expectation and the current ones don't give the impression that flashing is not kids biznz.
Also it looks like there are to many uploads of the same home screens, software etc. (i think even i am quilty of that).
I'm all for a big clean up but with the focus on retaining the history and origin as much as possible even if it means loosing a few classic threads.
You as admin can set the tone and expectation and a clear message should be sent to junior cooks that collaboration is what drives this site.
PDACornerUltimate
By: abusalza
Phoenix
By: parleyp
HyperDragon
By: sakajati
AthineOS
By: b16b
eOS
By: -888-
RevROM
By: kareem9nba
-G- ROM's
By: -G-
SeaDragon
By: ansar.ath.gr
If I've missed any please let me know. These are NOT the only ROM's nor are they the "best" ROM's for the Kaiser just a list of the ROM's that seam to be the most popular.
Why did you post this?
Does it's based on number of post or viewers who's came to related ROM threads? Why don't we just do polling or something? But i guess member here rarely used only one ROM, it's keep changing
is this really necessary?
Travito said:
is this really necessary?
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i feel it is just like adding a new thread with no benefits n discussions...
I think it is an against rule.. so MOD to take the call on this!
siddesh_0110 said:
i feel it is just like adding a new thread with no benefits n discussions...
I think it is an against rule.. so MOD to take the call on this!
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Why did you post this?
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is this really necessary?
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What is the big deal? ......What , is he taking much needed space away from all the new 6.5 roms coming out ? Look around, things are kind of slow around here with links being taken down, chefs canceling their new 6.5 releases
This is not a "what is best thread," it merely consolidates all the chefs in one area,.........If it is tagged right, now all a noob has to do is come to rom development, type " popular roms " into search and he will come right to this page, to link and compare. No harm, could be helpful.
Don't forget ansar's roms, get the link in my signature.
Make this sticky!
Maybe add older but good ROMS like dutty's, Laurentis, etc!
I didn't expect to be flamed for making a post that would help me. If it helps me then I'm sure it would help others here on the forums.
I'm not claiming these are the best ROM's, What I did was sort the forum by number of posts and then started listing, I skipped over the threads that was old but apparently some of those ROM's are still used so I'll include those too.
Fingerlickin said:
I didn't expect to be flamed for making a post that would help me. If it helps me then I'm sure it would help others here on the forums.
I'm not claiming these are the best ROM's, What I did was sort the forum by number of posts and then started listing, I skipped over the threads that was old but apparently some of those ROM's are still used so I'll include those too.
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your not really being flamed its just that this is rom development forum and your thread has nothing to do with that,or with even aiding in rom dev. maybe you should put this in the kaiser-general forum?
The only problem is I don't think noobs are going to use the search function in the general forum to find a popular rom list. They are going to come here, to rom dev. Yes they could just go up and down the forum threads looking at post totals for different roms, but we all know clueles noobs.
I would love for them to be able to input "popular roms " into the search function and have them be directed to a list. Or as we get the inevitalbe " what is the best rom " question, which gets asked here, more than in the Kaiser general forum " here is the list of popular roms ", " follow the links and test and compare for yourself "
Could be helpful.
Once upon a time, XDA made this thing, it was grand, it's called THE WIKI.
Where there is already an extensive ROM list.
Instead of making a new thread, update the WIKI.
Travito said:
Once upon a time, XDA made this thing, it was grand, it's called THE WIKI.
Where there is already an extensive ROM list.
Instead of making a new thread, update the WIKI.
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agreed it is far more extensive
Travito said:
Once upon a time, XDA made this thing, it was grand, it's called THE WIKI.
Where there is already an extensive ROM list.
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And that is why the thread is not called " every rom ever written for the Kaiser " because that is in the wiki. Lets face it when the noobs come to this Kaiser forum, they are looking for the latest and the greatest, the stuff all the other kids are using.
They are not looking or willing to to filter through yesterdays news just to get the newest stuff. Don't get me wrong, Leo, Dutty, NATF, and all are legends and always will be, but they have moved on. In some cases the chefs are not even supporting their old threads that are still listed in the wiki.
We hear enough complaints as it is about all the old info a noob has to go through to get the " new stuff ".
This is kind of a thanks and props to the guys that have stayed behind and still support us, and a thanks to the ( Josh, KaiserII101, ngy ) new chefs stepping up, by moving them to the top of the " every rom available for the Kaiser" list .
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=492757
Go here follow the links to the latest and the greatest and decide for yourself. Easy Answer ?
Not meaning to be a jerk with so many posts, I'm just sayin............
I've got to admit that this thread helped me find a good naked ROM, namely AthineOS. I probably would have found it in the end but who knows how long that would have taken?
denco7 said:
Lets face it when the noobs come to this Kaiser forum, they are looking for the latest and the greatest, the stuff all the other kids are using.
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and that stuff 9 times out of 10 is on the 1st or 2nd page of the kaiser forum, hence threads like these AREN'T needed.
edit: not to mention that this is the "Kaiser Rom Development forum" not a come and get it/heres your menu forum, these "kids" need to be searching/learning before they EVER think about flashing a rom. or all you get is theses spoon fed "kids" not reading/searching, bricking their phones more than they do now!!!
<soapbox>
I've been lurking XDA for quite some time, have read countless threads, and flashed numerous ROMs. I'm no chef/expert, but I'm not a n00b either. My visits to XDA are far from regular and usually involve either obtaining a new ROM or checking on the status of Android on the Kaiser. I greatly appreciate the work of everyone who cooks ROMs, administrates the forum/wiki, or just generally puts in time to help the community, and try to stay out of the way unless I have a good question or something useful to add. I use the search function and the wiki religiously. In short, I'm probably a good example of the typical XDA visitor. Here's my opinion:
@Fingerlickin: Thank you. The effort is appreciated, but I don't imagine you'll want to come back and update this every few months. If you make a new wiki page or add the popularity info to the existing ROM list, other people can update it in future. Then, you could just edit your post and make it a link to the wiki (or have the mods add the link to the FAQ) so that it comes up in forum searches.
@Travito & msd24200: You say that a more extensive list can be found elsewhere and that a post like this doesn't belong in the ROM development forum. With all due respect, I think you are missing the point. Fingerlickin didn't post a list of all ROMS, he posted something of a Top 8 list. It wasn't intended to be comprehensive.
Could he have updated the wiki instead of making a new post? Sure, but (at the time of this post) that page was last updated in January.
Could any given XDA visitor get this information on their own? Yes, but it can be confusing, frustrating, and time consuming. ROM authors and update threads change, and some of the most popular ROMs are no longer maintained.
Should this be somewhere else? I don't believe so. If I'm interested in getting a ROM, I go to where the ROM developers post them. They don't post in Kaiser General, so I don't go there for ROMs. Naturally, I wouldn't expect to find a list of popular ROMs there, either.
Frankly, I think the FAQ actually has too much info, especially since there's a wiki with all of that (and more). As for the wiki, it's not the easiest thing to navigate. For example, a search for "Kaiser" brings up a list of pages, but should I click the HTC_Kaiser link, or the Kaiser link? If I'm looking for info on Kaiser ROMs, do I choose KaiserROMs or Kaiser_ROMs? KaiserROMs directs me to see either Kaiser Cooked Roms or Kaiser Shipped Roms, the latter being a link to the Kaiser_ROMs page.
My point is simply this: Fingerlickin's post lists several of the most popular, and still updated, ROMs. This info is not available on the wiki or in the FAQ, and pertains directly to the ROMs developed and posted on this forum. It might be easier to maintain if it were on the wiki, but it might end up harder to find. It's definitely not redundant or in the wrong forum, and it IS a time saver.
</soapbox>
Exactly all the most up to date things will be within first 2 pages and even if not then surely it's worth putting in the effort to find a ROM that you want and like, by that i mean to do a bit of research read some of the reviews flash it and then probably go somewhere else and flash untill you find the ROM that suits your needs and wishes, blah blah too many threadz with Help\Fastest ROM\Best ROM or just posted in the bloody wrong section.
Blah Blah Blah..............
msd24200 where's that cat when you need him?
DamionFury: I read it all and you have some valib point but time consuming is all part of it your flashing a UK £200ish phone............. Take some time, do some learning..... You don't need to use the search for Kaiser ROMs go through the pages of ROM Development and you can just flip & flip & flip till you find what you want???
I enjoy using my phone when it has a ROM that I like; I don't enjoy spending hours finding that ROM. I have far too many things I'd rather be doing. I spend the time finding the ROM because I believe that it's worth it, but anything that reduces the expenditure is great in my book.
DamionFury said:
<soapbox>
I've been lurking XDA for quite some time, have read countless threads, and flashed numerous ROMs. I'm no chef/expert, but I'm not a n00b either. My visits to XDA are far from regular and usually involve either obtaining a new ROM or checking on the status of Android on the Kaiser. I greatly appreciate the work of everyone who cooks ROMs, administrates the forum/wiki, or just generally puts in time to help the community, and try to stay out of the way unless I have a good question or something useful to add. I use the search function and the wiki religiously. In short, I'm probably a good example of the typical XDA visitor. Here's my opinion:
@Fingerlickin: Thank you. The effort is appreciated, but I don't imagine you'll want to come back and update this every few months. If you make a new wiki page or add the popularity info to the existing ROM list, other people can update it in future. Then, you could just edit your post and make it a link to the wiki (or have the mods add the link to the FAQ) so that it comes up in forum searches.
@Travito & msd24200: You say that a more extensive list can be found elsewhere and that a post like this doesn't belong in the ROM development forum. With all due respect, I think you are missing the point. Fingerlickin didn't post a list of all ROMS, he posted something of a Top 8 list. It wasn't intended to be comprehensive.
Could he have updated the wiki instead of making a new post? Sure, but (at the time of this post) that page was last updated in January.
Could any given XDA visitor get this information on their own? Yes, but it can be confusing, frustrating, and time consuming. ROM authors and update threads change, and some of the most popular ROMs are no longer maintained.
Should this be somewhere else? I don't believe so. If I'm interested in getting a ROM, I go to where the ROM developers post them. They don't post in Kaiser General, so I don't go there for ROMs. Naturally, I wouldn't expect to find a list of popular ROMs there, either.
Frankly, I think the FAQ actually has too much info, especially since there's a wiki with all of that (and more). As for the wiki, it's not the easiest thing to navigate. For example, a search for "Kaiser" brings up a list of pages, but should I click the HTC_Kaiser link, or the Kaiser link? If I'm looking for info on Kaiser ROMs, do I choose KaiserROMs or Kaiser_ROMs? KaiserROMs directs me to see either Kaiser Cooked Roms or Kaiser Shipped Roms, the latter being a link to the Kaiser_ROMs page.
My point is simply this: Fingerlickin's post lists several of the most popular, and still updated, ROMs. This info is not available on the wiki or in the FAQ, and pertains directly to the ROMs developed and posted on this forum. It might be easier to maintain if it were on the wiki, but it might end up harder to find. It's definitely not redundant or in the wrong forum, and it IS a time saver.
</soapbox>
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and again there is no point to be missing the fact is this is a rom development thread not a come and get it and here's the menu thread. THIS HAS BEEN GONE OVER AND OVER AND OVER so many times. the roms that are "hot" will always be on the first couple of pages of the forum because so many use them they don't have time to drop back to page 3. you guys that want to spoon feed should start your own website linking back to the rom threads on here then. and as far as the wiki goes it's all there and ANYONE can update the wiki at anytime.
Hi guys,
so, as there are some possibilities, and the question arised, here's a little poll for you.
It's about how developers and users/testers of Android should best communicate.
Quick overview:
This thread has 4k+ entries now, but many people are watching it. It's more like an IRC channel, though.
The Linux-To-Go site has 4 different trackers (bugs, patches, support, feature requests), and a news system and a little bit more. Sometimes it is quite slow, but since they've just got a new sponsor, I think they're working out how to distribute the load.
I have already asked whether we can have a subforum, and the site admin seemed positive about it, but wanted to see into which directions the Mod's discussions were.
If you have a better idea, please post!
Stefan
I prefer the googlecode bugtracker, since the most people dosnt need to create an new account, it is simple but powerfull. And the ui looks much better then the Linux-To-Go one.
Looks like guys here voting mostly for just subforum. May I suggest in this case that there would be few sticky topics for guides/overall discussion and the rest is topic per bug type-o-thing? Someone would be a moderator, of course.
it doesn't even matter what we / you think - the only votes that matter are the ones of the developers.
git seems to work quite well for developing - if ltg is too slow - it shouldn't be a problem to clone it to a faster repo elsewhere (afaik there's already a faster one in place - can't remember the address) - also after the initial setup it doesn't really matter how slow it is anymore (unless you don't know how to use git and constantly start over from scratch).
As for bugtracking - are there developers interested in bugtracking? I think they're well aware of what needs work.
(e.g. for Polaris it's documented in the wiki)
What we really need at the moment is kernel developers for various devices.
just my 2 ¢
Tip
I don't dislike the idea of a full thread as it was...but i feel we should split threats into 50 posts. After could be "Part II" , "Part III"...etc.
Hugs
excogitation said:
As for bugtracking - are there developers interested in bugtracking? I think they're well aware of what needs work.
(e.g. for Polaris it's documented in the wiki)
What we really need at the moment is kernel developers for various devices.
just my 2 ¢
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Actually, I suggested a bug tracker, even for developers-internal use because then one can see what the other devs are working on and that one doesn't have to care about the problem...
More developers would be good, of course!!
Stefan
seidler2547 said:
Actually, I suggested a bug tracker, even for developers-internal use because then one can see what the other devs are working on and that one doesn't have to care about the problem...
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There is more to it. First, more eyes will be able to find more bugs. Second, bug tracker allows instead of keeping all bugs in head, constantly trying to remember them all, keep in head only one on which working currently, while the rest is recorded in database according to their priority. No one has superhuman memory. Also, bugtracking important because people generally happier with product that is with not too many features but robust rather than product with whole bunch of awesomeness but also hosting whole hive of bugs. Here's good article on bugtracking.
Thanks MooNWalker. Seems we should try to push a bit more for a subforum, and use the bugtracker for the reasons you said. We should see if the LTG one can be extended so that people will not have to sign up in order to make contributions. The site itself seems fast right now.
Stefan
Ok, we will try with the bugtracker.
Go here to see the bugs and to enter new ones.
Stefan
@seidler2547: Can you change something there? It is currently not obvious that this is the bugtracker for Kaiser Android. You have to know that this is the right place there. If i was new here and i what to fast post a bug, i will be very confused if the bugtracker is the right one.
Hi lanwin, dzo set up the tracker name. Anyway, it is a bit cryptic because it is not only for Kaiser Android. It is for running Linux (and with it Android) on MSM7x00 devices, that is Kaiser, Nike, Polaris, Vogue and so on. We have a common hardware base, so we coordinate our development. You know you're on the right bug tracker because -> the link here says so, and -> this is the only one in mobile-linux you can report bugs without logging in
Having said that, we can think about the name nevertheless. What do you suggest?
Stefan
Hi Stefan, yep i know that but a non technical user wouldn't do. Even if it is ugly, i suggest "Android for Kaiser, Nike, Polaris, Vogue (MSM7x00)".
Anyway, thanks for bringing Android for this platforms forward!
new sub forum
i think a sub forum is good because it will allow for more specific threads.
it will also allow us to get an rss feed of all things android
finally, can't the current long thread just be moved into the sub-forum? no one will be forced to start or look at new threads, but it will be there.
Does it really affect anything in a negative way or preclude the other options?
Android development is only going to pickup, and i expect we will see a corresponding drop off in WM.
Lets think about what the development scene is going to look like in 2 years... even after we've all moved on from our current phones.
The question is: Can/Should/Will xda-devs be the place for android development too?
seidler2547 said:
Having said that, we can think about the name nevertheless. What do you suggest?
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Put link to bugtracker in Android on HTC wiki. Might be helpfull to put it in first post on main thread.
I think this bugtracker was for the full Android port, but it seems that it is only for the kernel so all my bugs are closed with "This is not related to this project (Linux kernel for mobile devices) but to the google android user space and must hence be moved.".
Where to report user spaces related bugs?
That is a good question. I have seen the close, but I'm not too happy with it, although I understand the reasons. Maybe we need to make an extra google bugtracker, as someone suggested.
Stefan
I think the original android post has really become quite cumbersome, I voted for a subforum but I don't really care as long as I am able to see what is going on. The old post has become unorganized there are a bunch of different sites and stuff on that post to get builds and kernels and what not from and I have become somewhat confused with it all. I am curious though as to how many people are actually working on this at our end the only one I see actively posting is seidler is dzo or polypoly still working on it. I'm having problems getting some of the files required listed on source.android.com fiqured I would give it a wack, probly a short wack.
seidler2547 said:
That is a good question. I have seen the close, but I'm not too happy with it, although I understand the reasons. Maybe we need to make an extra google bugtracker, as someone suggested.
Stefan
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This was me I am against a sub forum. Forums are very bad in cases of a bugtracking functionality because there is no bug management available and users tend to use one thread for bug reporting, questions and discussion where it is really hard to find out the bugs for the devs.
I think there should only be one bugtracker for the users because the most of them can not distinguish between user space and kernel space bugs and requests.
I suggest to open a user friendly google code bugtracker and some of the devs move bugs related to kernel space over to the other bugtracker.
To all of those who feel it necessary to create a separate forum for you rom, please stop. I understand that donations do not make you a lot of money, and that the pay per hour of cooking is probably well under the minimum wage in most countries. And, that opening new forums allows you to collect your own ad revenues, or maybe even harvest emails.
The amazing roms that come out of XDA are the result of collaboration between the thousands of people working out one fix at a time. Moving that knowledge else where creates a headache for people who simply want support for your rom.
Sometimes the XDA format can be a drag.
Having only one thread for an entire rom can bury good information, but...
searching through a thread is a lot less of a mess than having to sign up for a new forum every time you want to get the newest version of a rom, or find a fix implemented by a chef.
I understand that a chef's roms are the fruits of his or her efforts, and that he or she can do what they please with them (according to some interpreations of the law). But much of the progress that allows us to cook came as a result of people openly sharing information on XDA.
I don't see the problem it's really the person decision making the rom. I really hate searching through hundreds of posts to find info and would like to be able to have an easier way. I wish my rom did have it's own forum. Its not like they cant ask here or the rom cant be posted here. I am sure the cooker will support both since he will receive donations from both sources.
Use search link in my sign, its a lot easier and faster to search this forum. I agree there is tons of information in here. And most of all, anything that you can think of has been asked before, all you have to know is how to search, and you will find the information you want. So starting a new thread unless you are contributing is just waste of server space!
I'll take this spot to reinforce what Travito says in the next post. Phoenix is a community driven rom and the Phoenix forum helps us prioritize what we include in a build, the fixes we do and allows us to have a very collaborative process. We do post general fixes on xda.
The OP also doesn't realize the collaboration that goes on behind the scenes between the chefs, moderators and other developers that drive the general improvements in all of the roms that are being produced. This is especially true in the Kaiser community. It is this sharing that drives innovation and improvements. This process isn't necessarily one that I would want out in the open since it is iterative and tedious at times. It takes a long time to fix bugs but we all share our experiences.
One last thing, we on the Phoenix team do NOT accept donations, solicit donations or put advertising on our forum...You see we do this because we believe in helping the community. I am not disrespecting those chefs that accept donations because circumstances vary and needs vary. I am just stating that a private forum is NOT about making money.
Parley
okay, now that my little gaffe is out of the way from being in Parley's account when i posted that, though I'm sure his opinions are similar...
We on the Phoenix team have a seperate forum because it allows for easier bug tracking. XDA threads consist mainly of "Thank yous" so it seems, and you need to realize that we all have normal jobs and social lives. When we do get time to dedicate to XDA, it becomes very tedious and time consuming trying to sort through all the thank yous and trying to figure out which issues have already been addressed by fellow Phoenix users and which are still open.
PDC lets us bug track much more similarly to a piece of Helpdesk or Knowledgebase software, except the Forum basis allows for collaboration on solutions.
Most problems that get posted at PDC are ROM-specific, and not present on every ROM. If we find a fix that others could use back at XDA, we let the other chefs that we work with know and share the knowledge.
If that bothers you then I suppose your problem is actually with the advancement of ROM support and task management.
I'm behind whatever the Chef's feel they need to do and Travito is spot on with the ammount of work just to bypass thankyou or the monotomous problem that has been answered a million times......
Without the chefs here i would have a very dull phone, infact no i would have an n73
So to chefs do as you wish just produce the awesome ROMs you do!! And i wont make a new thread!! JK
Yeah um who cares? Private forums are good for cooking teams and anyone who wants to follow the ROM dev closer.
soulbandaid said:
To all of those who feel it necessary to create a separate forum for you rom, please stop. I understand that donations do not make you a lot of money, and that the pay per hour of cooking is probably well under the minimum wage in most countries. And, that opening new forums allows you to collect your own ad revenues, or maybe even harvest emails.
The amazing roms that come out of XDA are the result of collaboration between the thousands of people working out one fix at a time. Moving that knowledge else where creates a headache for people who simply want support for your rom.
Sometimes the XDA format can be a drag.
Having only one thread for an entire rom can bury good information, but...
searching through a thread is a lot less of a mess than having to sign up for a new forum every time you want to get the newest version of a rom, or find a fix implemented by a chef.
I understand that a chef's roms are the fruits of his or her efforts, and that he or she can do what they please with them (according to some interpreations of the law). But much of the progress that allows us to cook came as a result of people openly sharing information on XDA.
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you know u shouldnt have started a new thread for this, your just wasting space this thread should be closed and thread starter should be warned of starting this bogus thread in the kaiser rom dev forum
msd24200 said:
you know u shouldnt have started a new thread for this, your just wasting space this thread should be closed and thread starter should be warned of starting this bogus thread in the kaiser rom dev forum
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why ? I think a lot of good info and intentions came from it.....if there is nothing to hide then why curtail legit threads..huh? if you do not like the threads do not read it..simple
..free flow of info is important to this site..remember the only dumb questionis the one not ask.
OP got the answers he was looking for, and some darn good ones...i to was wondering why private forums were being created instead of being kept on this site...
F2504x4 said:
why ? I think a lot of good info and intentions came from it.....if there is nothing to hide then why curtail legit threads..huh? if you do not like the threads do not read it..simple
..free flow of info is important to this site..remember the only dumb questionis the one not ask.
OP got the answers he was looking for, and some darn good ones...i to was wondering why private forums were being created instead of being kept on this site...
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I agree. Frankly, I used to follow XDA and loved it. But there are so many egotistical, immature, thread Nazis and other not so nice users, lot's of time is wasted reading their nonsense. Anyway, yesterday was the 1st day back after months and I was skeptical about the Phoenix team, but after reading this thread, I'm going to check them out for sure.
--G
F2504x4 said:
why ? I think a lot of good info and intentions came from it.....if there is nothing to hide then why curtail legit threads..huh? if you do not like the threads do not read it..simple
..free flow of info is important to this site..remember the only dumb questionis the one not ask.
OP got the answers he was looking for, and some darn good ones...i to was wondering why private forums were being created instead of being kept on this site...
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DOES NOT AID IN "KAISER ROM DEVELOPMENT" enough said
This NOT ment to be *****ing, I AM grateful for all the great work being done, But i do WISH every single dev could include this in their first post in their ROMs thread:
-What the ROM is based on (HTC framework, ADP, ADP with Sense from Dream, Sense from Hero etc.)
->What works (or not) of:
* LED
* bluetooth
These are common problems with HERO ROMs, and if every dev posted this info, it would be great. For me non-LED= not usable, and for some periods of time (ie. when I'm driving much), so is no BT
->Included apps.
*Especially important are sms-spamming apps such as myfaves - coud be critical to know about.
->recommended compache settings, swapiness etc, what is used in ROM as standard for these values.
We see every Hero-thread filling up with questions about BT, LED, what HERO-version, and what framework, and whatnot. Taking 2mins to post this info could help save so much time,and so much spam/question in the ROM thread.
Apps added/removed and the other stuff is also higly relevant to non-HERO roms.
Again, this is constructive criticism aka a humble suggestion, not an angry demand from some jerk with e-penile problems. (Or so I'd like to believe, at least.)
If anyone has any suggestion as to what other info you would like to see in a ROM announcement? Post it here, maybe we can "help" the devs out by making a complete template we would like them to follow. Input from devs highly appreciated too, ofc.
I know there are toher things that shoul also be listed, such as SPL and radio required etc., although I believe almost everyone includes it. Most devs include most of the items on the list too, but many do not include all of it.
Also, I am sorry for posting this in this category, but this is where the ROMs are posted and the devs can see it.
I hope this thread has its place here. Different people are lokking for different things, and both the user and devs benefit from the user knowing what they get. (It would hopefully limit the number of "spam" questions from users if the first post contained all this information, we know many people are afraid of the search button. Also, it would be easier to wield the ban hammer on people whoe doesn't even bother to look at the simple list in the first post, and waste other peoples time.)
If a dev included enough information, ROM lists with information abut different ROMs would also be much easier to maintain for the good people making them.
It may make things more organized, but it means devs have to update the list, and pay less attwntion to -actual ROM development.
And in my opinion, a little trial and error never hurt anyone.
TermyJW said:
It may make things more organized, but it means devs have to update the list, and pay less attwntion to -actual ROM development.
And in my opinion, a little trial and error never hurt anyone.
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This is TRUE!
I so hope that Hero ROM's on donut are much more snappier! I'm addicted, I want a ROM to use for a few months! Hehe.
Yeah, it would be nice if there was a template developers could follow for posting. It would make thing's so much smoother.
Possibly in the title of the post have;
[ROM] [SENSE] "Title Here"
[ROM] [PULSE] "Title Here"
[ROM] [MOTOBLUR] "Title Here"
[ROM] [1.6] "Title Here"
[ROM] [1.5] "Title Here"
I agree with the OP there are times where i i can't flash 5 different ROMs in a day and i skip over some because of lack of info and screenshots. Maybe the community can build a template that the ROM devs can use?
damnitpud said:
I agree with the OP there are times where i i can't flash 5 different ROMs in a day and i skip over some because of lack of info and screenshots. Maybe the community can build a template that the ROM devs can use?
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Are you thinking about getting back into making themes?
not gonna happen
jubeh said:
not gonna happen
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word im too lazy
they already spend there time developing the roms, i dont think they have the time to make the "proper layout"
Binary100100 said:
Are you thinking about getting back into making themes?
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I have been playing around with some images, made changes for my own phone but haven't done much else. I did just get laid off from my job so if i go the unemployment route you will definitely see me more in these forums. If i can't find a job soon i plan on getting into Java programming(i have a few app ideas) and possibly making my own ROMs. But we have to see where the job market takes me.
To stay on topic, the devs do spend a lot of time dev'n and having a template in a txt file would make posting easier for them. I have made a few threads and i can tell you making a layout for a post isn't that easy and is not much fun. If we can make an empty template that they only have to fill in their info...they would be doing the same amount of work on the post, just easier cause its all laid out for them.
We would need a sticky for it and have the devs vote on it or something.
That's a great idea it would be so much easier plus people won't be trashing threads with dumb ass questions is this for G1? Does this work or does it still do that and so on....
I mean before they upload the Rom they know most of the bugs so just saying known issues r these and that would help and just knowing what's new in the release doesn't help just confuses most of the noobs here...I'm one of them.
A little off topic but I'm a recruiting officer in a PC gaming community and I review clan applications, there were times when main application was down so I just made a sticky Thread with a template of the application to fill up and post it as a new thread
I mean look all of the devs pretty much do that already anyhow, every thread they make look exactly as the other 1 we just need a clean template that they all could use and just made it as a sticky thread and lock it so every1 could use it.
Zarboz said:
word im too lazy
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If you're making a ROM and posting it on xda, you obviously want other people to use it.
If the first post is sloppy and not informative or up to date. Less people will use your ROM. Thus, less people will test it. Therefore, you won't be able to figure out the bugs. If you're sloppy with info, you'll lose, not us.
Something that should be standard:
A proper title like suggested earlier such as [ROM] [1.6 - Pulse] [******]
(none of that [ROM] ***MghtyMax 1.9.1*** "WHAT A FEELING!" stuff....Sorry, but it's just plain horrible.)
Another thing should be a list of features, things that work, things that don't.
Screenshots are also very nice and descriptive. A lot of new users might not know what Pulse, Hero, etc. looks like.
If you take the time to work on a ROM, you have the time to work on a nice looking first post. Don't half ass your work. It makes you look unprofessional.
I agree with the first poster, also MD5 hashes would be nice.
As damnitpud mentions, this would probably make it easier for devs, not harder. This is about *not* forccing them to make the proper layout themselves, but serve as a pre-made basis for them to fill in. In ready made bb-code ofc.
Since the mighty max-rom was brought up, this is noe ROM i did not download and flash immedeatly beacause I couldn't find info about BT working or not. Also would like to know if it were the SENSE from Dream or Hero. And some other details.
As I have time to sit down and flash my phone maybe two days a week, tops, I would like to know what I want to try beforehand. I also don't want to read four hundred post with questions that sometimes are answered in the first post, sometimes in the thread, sometimes not at all. But IF they had been answered in first post - and especially if it were in standard list that all/most devs used, it would be hard to miss it, and save a lot of stupid and/or lazy people nagging.
md5 hashes is absolutely something that should be on such a list, ohnoezmahfone. That is certainly lacking, and quite important for people with a good-for-nothing-ISP or net by 3G modem etc.
Someone make up a template. There will always be someone who will volunteer to do it for the developer.
All great ideas.
Especially for the sake of SEARCH.
Example:
I enter a search for "bluetooth working hero" and up pops 4000 unhelpful results most where 1000 noobs are asking if it works or not without doing the proper research in the prior posts.
An all informative 1st post would reduce this and the unnecessary flaming that follows (also part of results)
Also, it would also be real nice if everyone keep their personal lives to themselves.
Noone cares if your "flashing [other irrelavant ROM] now because BT aint working for Hero yet. This also shows up in results.
If I want you to kno whats on my device, i'll put it in my sig
I know i just made "BT working Hero" one more result longer [4001] but i had to vent. Sometimes searching can be very annoying and cumbersome.
Less results means less hassle for devs and users.
Once again, great ideas