Related
my minimum requirement:
-attractive in look
-vga [so that i can read pdf files in good quality]
-wifi & bluetooth
-good multimedia [atleast better then nokia n 70 ]
-atleast 2MP camara and unlimited video recording capacity
-no ram problems or memory full problems like sucking nokia s60 phones
-basic applications should be available [compatible] for that pda
- Pocket Office(Word, Excel, Outlook, PDF viewer)
- Java MIDP 2.0
-good speed [atleast better then nokia s60]
-price around 14-18000INR [350-450USD]
-4gb memory card should be available
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
actually i wanna buy iphone but it's not launched in india yet and not sure when it will be launched..so cant wait more then 1-2months for it now
what do you say about htcs710? any other phone better then this in my price according to my requirement?
Thanks to all to take your time to guide me..
HTC does not have many VGA offerings. but its not the end of the world with qvga.
I started a thread recently for my self that could answer some of your questions.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?p=1970736
maybe flame
maybe sonyE's upcomming x1
I've been looking hard to find a device to upgrade my Trinity to a VGA device and the sad thing is there really isn't anything decent out there right now and hardly anything worthwile coming out, at least from what's been announced.
HTC, forget it they don't have anything in a small form factor that's VGA. Too bad, the Touch Cruise would have been absolutely perfect if it had a VGA. The only thing that could have made that better was if it had a Capacitive VGA touch screen.
E-Ten has some VGA devices but they only have 64 Megs of ram and it's poorly used, you end up with an average of about 12 Megs running which can make it painful to use. Not to mention its quirks like not being able to power off the device like HTC devices by holding the Power Button down, lots of little things like that.
Imate Ultimate Series, all except the 8502 are VGA but most are lacking in GPS if that's a feature you are looking for and they are bigger than most devices if size matters. Not to mention Imate seems to be in trouble, their current rom is very buggy, support seems limited and the battery life is terrible.
O2 Flame as mentioned by Rudegar is a posibility but I believe it's TriBand, that's a problem for me as I'm in North America but if you don't need the extra band, it's worth considering.
The Xperia also mentioned by Rudegar pretty much has everything and goes behind VGA with an 800x400 resolution but it's not available yet. Personally I'm not a big fan of slide out querty keyboards, I find them to big and combersome to use with two thumbs but given the deminsions are about the same as the O2 Flame, I'd choose this over the Flame if I couldn't find anything smaller.
The Gigabyte GSmart MS808 has potential, don't know the diminsions but the current specs seems to indicate it has everything you are looking for. Haven't had any experience with Gigabyte but people seem to like them so it's worth taking a look at. Again, it's not available until later this year though.
Bottom line, nothing out there that's really worth it right now in the VGA market. If you can wait I'd hold off until later this year, I think we'll be seeing a lot of new devices coming out with VGA, even HTC should be moving towards VGA as their leaked new Touch Flow (Manilla) seems to indicate.
Personally I've been seriously considering jumping Windows Mobile and moving over to an Iphone for a while. Now that they are building in ActiveSync support with push email into the next firmware. I'd have to get used to a lot of limitations, no camera, gps, basic functionality ect. that I don't have know but the capactive touch screen!!! I really wish there was a Windows Mobile device out there that used this technology. Once you use it, it makes it really hard to go back to a resitive touch device almost unbearable!
I'd really wish there was a VGA Windows Mobile device that had it all for me the absolute minimum of any device should be
Small Slim Form Factor
Good Battery Life
TriBand HSDPA/HSUPA
Quadband GSM
400 Mhz Proc.
VGA Display
256 Megs Rom
128 Megs Ram
GPS
3Mp Camera/VGA Camera (Video Calls)
Bluetooth
Make that screen Capacitive and it would be the best device out there!
" Personally I'm not a big fan of slide out querty keyboards, I find them to big and combersome to use with two thumbs but given the deminsions are about the same as the "
nor am i a fan of keyboards but other then that which one could just not use the x1 looks pretty sweet so far
a non VGA device thats interesting is the new
MWg Atom V.
http://www.expansys.ca/d.aspx?i=164854
its an all-in-one with an attractive design.
draw backs are:
qvga
64 ram
minimalistic 6 buttons- 2 for calling
and maybe price.
--
Aside recent rumors that SE Xperia will be on At&T so that will give us in NA the option of plenty unlocked X1's in early 2009.
ASUS is also bringing exciting new devices that that are the size of an IPhone with a 2.8" screen
Who can recommend a good WM phone that is slimmer and lighter than the Kaiser?
Need the same CPU speed or quicker.
GPS not necessary.
3G not necessary.
Slideout keyboard optional.
Same size screen or bigger is a plus.
htc touch dual is the one you want. or touch cruise
Does it have to be a windows mobile device? The Nokia N95 8GB is really nice.
Doesn't have to be but I use a fair number of WM apps.
hollywould said:
Does it have to be a windows mobile device? The Nokia N95 8GB is really nice.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
He said same speed or faster.
N95 uses a slower cpu (TI OMAP 2420 with only 330 Mhz).
The N95 is smaler but thicker than the Kaiser (21 mm vs 19 mm).
TDO
I'm still looking for something with a bigger screen. Haven't gotten rid of mine yet, but the move to smaller screens is just the opposite of what I have been looking for.
Good Luck with your search
trjons said:
Who can recommend a good WM phone that is slimmer and lighter than the Kaiser?
Need the same CPU speed or quicker.
GPS not necessary.
3G not necessary.
Slideout keyboard optional.
Same size screen or bigger is a plus.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
How bout upgrading to the mother of PDAphones.
ETEN Glofiish X800 or M800
TDO said:
He said same speed or faster.
N95 uses a slower cpu (TI OMAP 2420 with only 330 Mhz).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
It's better NOT to compare the 2420 to the Qualcomm 400 Mhz. The former is WAY faster than the latter - as has always been the case with TI's CPU's compared to CPU's running at the same speed.
Also see my chipset/CPU-related posts, where I've elaborated on all these issues.
trjons said:
Doesn't have to be but I use a fair number of WM apps.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Symbian S60v3fp1 has a lot of functionality built-in only accessible via third-party apps on WinMo. For example, I only needed to install Opera Mini and an MP3 call recorder on my N95 and I can already fully use it for my purposes. No tweakings, no day-long installing needed.
Specifically, what do you need?
o2neouzr said:
htc touch dual is the one you want. or touch cruise
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Better not - before the Qualcomm drivers are fixed. Wait for the V900, the X1 or the MS808. Or, if Symbian isn't a problem, get either the Nokia N95-1, the N95 8GB or the N82 (they have cons and pros compared to the other so it's pretty hard to choose from them. I'd, personally, go for the N95-1).
Menneisyys said:
Symbian S60v3fp1 has a lot of functionality built-in only accessible via third-party apps on WinMo. For example, I only needed to install Opera Mini and an MP3 call recorder on my N95 and I can already fully use it for my purposes. No tweakings, no day-long installing needed.
Specifically, what do you need?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Microsoft Exchange Sync
Web browsing
Some form of Pocket banking that syncs to PC (Quicken is what I use now)
Pocket Word compatibility
Slingbox is nice too
That's it off the top of my head.
New ericsson X1
Hi,
I'm also bored with my Kaiser, to be honest i'm just sick of it crashing, crappy video drivers etc. I'm waiting for this to be released, i've always had Sony Ericssons and never had any major problems.
http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2008/02/11/mwc_sony_ericsson_announce_xperia_x1/
I'm seriously going to keep an eye on the MS808.
Menneisyys said:
Better not - before the Qualcomm drivers are fixed. Wait for the V900, the X1 or the MS808. Or, if Symbian isn't a problem, get either the Nokia N95-1, the N95 8GB or the N82 (they have cons and pros compared to the other so it's pretty hard to choose from them. I'd, personally, go for the N95-1).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
The MS808 seems to really rock!
It has absolutely Everything, Let's hope it also comes with some hardware accelerated video drivers.
Check this out:
http://www.akihabaranews.com/en/news_details.php?id=15655
an xda flame?
http://www.expansys.com/p.aspx?i=159590
bigger screen, vga, no gps, no keyboard, inbuilt gpu faster processor...
Rory
trjons said:
Who can recommend a good WM phone that is slimmer and lighter than the Kaiser?
Need the same CPU speed or quicker.
GPS not necessary.
3G not necessary.
Slideout keyboard optional.
Same size screen or bigger is a plus.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Take a look at the HP iPAQ 614c, very good phone IMHO
See these remarks here : http://www.modaco.com/content/HP-iPaq-iPaq-MoDaCo-com/261287/Questions-about-HP-IPAQ-610/
By my hand of course
Dirk
i would suggest you an LG KS20
only 100gr with the same specs to Kaizer, but cheaper and better drivers...
(only keyboard & gps are missing)
check this out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTkueY4wEbA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1T4UY-8kG_w
compare of ATOM V with Intel chip while the rest HTC Tytn II/Touch Dual/LG KS20 with qualcomm.
playing back the same video file on memory card at the same time but you can see that ATOM V with intel (marvell) performance better.
http://crave.cnet.co.uk/mobiles/0,39029453,49296230,00.htm
Knowing what i now know, about all the issues and the crap support from HTC, I regret purchasing my touch cruise. If I could go back in time, I would definately get the atom V. Oh well. Heindsight is always 20/20.
I think this is so skewed/biased.
I've got the 8525 and using BetaPlayer and can play smooth converted movies flawlessly. Without tweaking or optimizing Betaplayer, I can duplicate the stop/start effect. Yes, there are some tweaks that needs to be done, but BetaPlayer needs to be optimized for each PDA device it's installed on -just like everyone needs to adjust the seats on any rental car before they can feel comfortable in it.
myknyte said:
I think this is so skewed/biased.
I've got the 8525 and using BetaPlayer and can play smooth converted movies flawlessly. Without tweaking or optimizing Betaplayer, I can duplicate the stop/start effect. Yes, there are some tweaks that needs to be done, but BetaPlayer needs to be optimized for each PDA device it's installed on -just like everyone needs to adjust the seats on any rental car before they can feel comfortable in it.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8T2j9snCPPk
This another link by tatsdiy compare of INTEL vs SAMSUNG
O2 Zinc with yr 8525 aka HTC Hermes playing back same video also while zinc intel chip with speed step managed to run the video even at 312mhz while hermes cant perform well with its samsung 400mhz
Intel > qualcomm, samsung...
just from my own experience with using devices built on those chipsets, I can tell you that it's true..I had an apache (samsung 400mhz), currently have a touch cruise (qualcomm msm7200 400 mhz), and have used intel based ppcs before as well. The qualcomm chips are definately garbage, and are at the bottom of the barrel. The apache, I miss...I think it's def. faster than the touch cruise. I guess I regret my purchase :|
But as for the intel ones go, I would have to say that I think theyre better than both of those...just from using it for a little while..just normal email, web, etc. apps..no benchmarks, just personal opinon though.
Let's talk about the Touch Pro performance.
I will post some quotes.
branko.savic said:
Ok, so just to be fair I did some more testings on all three of my devices to find the optimal settings, here is the results:
Test performed on same video, with coreplayer 1.2.5, and optimal settings for each device:
Omnia:
Raw framebuffer: 442.74%
Universal:
Direct Draw: 165.28%
Touch Pro:
QTv display: 152.44%
Smooth Zoom and Dither turned off on each device!
So in conclusion, again Omnia wins by a huge 277.46% over the next best device that is the Universal. And even then the Universal is 12.84% better then the Touch Pro!
Please bare in mind that the Universal is a three years old device with only 64MB ram, while Touch pro is brand new and 288MB ram! They have same clock speed but Touch pro is supposed to have a better/newer chipset then the Universal!
There is no doubt in my mind anymore, Touch pro is missing the video drivers, or could it just be that qualcomm chipset just sucks?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
DSF said:
poor directdraw, framebuffer/video performance. Just to make an idea: an old device from 2005 with omap 850 200mhz CPU performs better in this area than the touch pro @ qualcomm 528mhz. what a shame. The test were done in this topic (in romanian, sorry). CorePlayer was used for benchmark. I will summarize.
- HTC Tornado overclocked (262Mhz) max performance: 174.22%
- Touch Pro max performance: 172,67%
Both in Raw framebuffer mode. When used QTV it gains only 162,64%. How come?
It's pitty, 262Mhz from OMAP performs better than 528!!!Mhz from Qualcomm?!
The video used for tests is this one. (320x240 @ 25FPS)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So what do you think? Are the qualcomm chipsets just junk or we got poor drivers? Personally, I was hoping that HTC did learn something after the HTC TyTN II issues..
Another prove of sh*ty graphics on touch pro: Touch Pro landscape redraw issue (videos included)
Furthermore I would like to make some recommendations to see the true performance of touch pro:
- Rats!! http://clickgamer.com/download.htm?pvid=15358
- Ubulis TSE http://www.ionfx.com/product_windows_mobile_obulisTSE.htm (note the req: "200Mhz CPU or higher"
- Spore
- Prince of Persia HD
- Assasin Creed HD
- etc.
Wonderfull, the graphics are so fluid... NOT.
How about GL benchmarks between the iPhone, Kaiser, Raphael, and Toshiba G810 Portege?
http://www.glbenchmark.com/compare....ser)&D3=HTC Touch Pro&D4=Toshiba G810 Portege
A lot of it is the quality of HTC's drivers since the Portege does better, but the rest is Qualcomm's fault because even the Protege is inferior compared to an iPhone, N95, etc etc.
However, I cannot find a better phone that has a decent 3D chip on it, has at&t 3G, touch screen, and isn't NDA locked.
If Qualcomm is such crap, then why oh why is HTC using it on all new devices?
Keep me wondering!
NuShrike, Touch Pro has a newer CPU that the one found on Toshiba G810 Portege, however, the benchmarks are still unsatisfying.
Here's some interesting information
Q: HTC, Qualcomm and the missing drivers—where do we send the angry mob with torches?
A: Qualcomm has a tiered pricing policy with their chipsets—so although you bought the chip, you have not bought all the features. So you have to pay additional fees per phone to get things like aGPS, graphic acceleration, etc.
In the past, HTC had no problems when using the older MSM-6500 chips (ARM9 processors) without drivers hence their reluctance to pay for any or additional support with the new MSM-7500 chips (ARM11 processors), especially since the newer processors were advertised to match or outperform the older generation.
Unfortunately, Qualcomm’s ARM11 performance does not match their previous ARM9 processor and is therefore, not quite as advertised. To get the proper performance out of the ARM11, one has to have knowledge of the processor’s implementation and design, but since that processor is not publicly available; the solution requires cooperation and assistance. HTC in this instance does not have this knowledge and is therefore unable to directly fix the problem, so they are put in a tough situation as they already have millions of these devices sold but they don’t want to pay Qualcomm more than they have to.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Full article: http://wmexperts.com/articles/editorials/qualcomm_htc_chipsets_and_feat.html
And here we've got a comparison between touch pro and dell axim v51v (a VGA PocketPC from year 2005).
http://www.glbenchmark.com/compare....whide=true&D1=HTC Touch Pro&D2=Dell Axim X51v
(I've bold the VGA because there are some users that are trying to find excuses of poor performance because of VGA resolution)
branko.savic said:
If Qualcomm is such crap, then why oh why is HTC using it on all new devices?
Keep me wondering!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Because Qualcomm owns wcdma! Anyone developing chipsets will have to pay them royalties which in the end increases cost of the chips and handsets.
branko.savic said:
If Qualcomm is such crap, then why oh why is HTC using it on all new devices?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
They probably make their hardware really cheap compared to other solutions.
There aren't many others (or at all) that package 3G WCDMA, asymmetric dual-core ARM11/ARM9, GPS, (WiFi?), BT?, and 3D GPU all into one at a pretty good power envelope.
The problem sounds like it's $$$ to access any of Q's advanced features, and they're not even that good.
Funny part is the CPU design was licensed from ARM in 2002 and is only hitting mainstream last year with the Kaiser/N95. However, it seems Qualcomm never licensed FPU capable ARM11 design, versus TI (N95 cpu) and Samsung (iPhone cpu) whom did.
If the video issue was the only problem...
Sometime it really annoys me how poor can perform... When I was thinking to switch from my HTC Tornado (TI OMAP 850 CPU (180Mhz)) I was saying the performance difference must be enormous , but I find that those qualcomm CPUs are crap or the drivers sucks.. (but I tend to think it's the first variant). I really want that my device to perform well while listening to music, not to wait 1-2 sec for Start Menu to appear (atention, Start Menu, not Programs list, while scrolling in that list the things are so laggy, but that's a WM issue, so I pass. I've got a lot of apps installed)
I'm really dissapointed of crappy performance. My first and last qualcomm cpu-enabled device. If I know that before buying... but no one complains of this, all worship it (for eg, see gsmarena review).
An advice for interested people in buying Touch Pro: if you want a good device PASS touch pro.
It simply doesn't deserve it's price. It has a lot of super nice features (5 row qwerty, plenty of RAM, good amount of ROM, accelerometer, multiple sensors, good shape, superb VGA resolution, HSPDA, etc etc) but has soo many issues (low volume, crap speakerphone/earpiece, music gap, slider play, gps lag, poor directdraw performance, landscape redraw issue, poor overall system performance..)
I really expected way much more from a 2008 year device and especially from HTC!
BTW, I'm using a custom ROM (T.I.R V8), so no I'm not using the factory ROM
What I'm wondering is that just a few owners joined the topic.. so, I guess, that the performance of your touch pro doesn't bother you..
then, we shouldn't be surprised if HTC isn't interested. They think that we are happy with the performance of the device.
Edit: http://brew.qualcomm.com/bnry_brew/pdf/brew_2007/Tech-303_Ligon.pdf - see page 13. And that's MSM72000. We got MSM7201A chipset on Touch Pro (better). So in final may be HTC fault? I'm so confused
Yep, have to agree the performance is abysmal. I heard HTC didn't want to pay some company for a proper graphics driver.... but thats just hearsay.
And have you seen the HTC HD? From the youtube videos I've watched ot goes like s**t off a shovel, seems they managed to get that thing working properly, if they'd only do an update for other devices.
Guys.. we need to do something, I'm really dissapointed about touch pro performance.
Look here how smooth does run quake 3 on nokia n82 (CPU: TI OMAP 2420 @ 330 MHz*): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1i4fOCrCv0
"Quake 3 Arena Running on nokia n82 in perfect speed,with all graphics settings set to high and Anti-Aliasing ON!!!!"
If you want, I will record a video showing quake 3 in action on touch pro, low fps, choppy sound, etc.
* Embedded 220MHz TI TMS320C55x DSP (GSM/GPRS/EDGE/UMTS baseband), 640KB shared SRAM, 2D/3D graphics acceleration, dual display support, analog/digital TV video output, TI TWL92230 companion chip
http://pdadb.net/index.php?m=cpu&id=a2420
Is that fair..?
I just don't know what to say. The time is passing and nothing's done in this direction..
@Gav_ haven't seen touch hd running other stuff than internet browsing (opera with the full quares when dragging, etc..), youtube, general menu browsing..
DSF said:
Guys.. we need to do something, I'm really dissapointed about touch pro performance.
Look here how smooth does run quake 3 on nokia n82 (CPU: TI OMAP 2420 @ 330 MHz*): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1i4fOCrCv0
"Quake 3 Arena Running on nokia n82 in perfect speed,with all graphics settings set to high and Anti-Aliasing ON!!!!"
If you want, I will record a video showing quake 3 in action on touch pro, low fps, choppy sound, etc.
* Embedded 220MHz TI TMS320C55x DSP (GSM/GPRS/EDGE/UMTS baseband), 640KB shared SRAM, 2D/3D graphics acceleration, dual display support, analog/digital TV video output, TI TWL92230 companion chip
http://pdadb.net/index.php?m=cpu&id=a2420
Is that fair..?
I just don't know what to say. The time is passing and nothing's done in this direction..
@Gav_ haven't seen touch hd running other stuff than internet browsing (opera with the full quares when dragging, etc..), youtube, general menu browsing..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I totally TOTALLY agree. I mean how can we fix this? How much time is going to go by until the chipset can finally do what it should be able to do?
The only take I have on these devices, is that they are pretty much marketed as "business class" devices. Yeah, they will play video, but you know that if they market it as a "business" device, they probably won't do much. If they
marketed it as a gaming device, or video music player, it might be a different
story. They made a Swiss army knife, but it doesn't do any of them well.
I'm happy with my TP, but I don't listen to music or watch videos, other than once in a while a youtube. I have mine for receiving email, text messages & phone calls, which, if you could get an honest answer from HTC, is where they think the market is for these devices.
@djcaston only HTC & Qualcomm knows..
No idea how we can fix this, but we should do something (make this public, e-mail htc, publish on mobile news site, etc). The solution/answer SHOULD come from the companies mentioned above.
@p51d007 but the DIAMOND is marked as a "business class" device too? I don't think so.
Even as a business device is not working too good. Just try some powerpoint presentations, open a doc file and see how much time it takes to load.
So..
I've made more comparisons.
Quake III Arema
Nokia N82 - Symbian S60 QVGA
TI OMAP 2420 @ 330 MHz, chipset launched in 2005
Graphic: PowerVR MBX
In action: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1i4fOCrCv0
Dell Axim x51v - WM VGA
Intel XScale PXA270 @ 624 MHz, chipset launched in 2004
Graphic: Intel 2700G5 Multimedia Accelerator
In action: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEuEGqYZNek
Touch Pro/Diamond
Qualcomm MSM7201A @ 528 MHz, chipset launched in 2008
Graphic: Not sure.. maybe embeded ATI Imageon?
In action: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=x8_wfWaYa_w
(the device in video is a touch pro)
SEGA Sonic 3 (Picodrive emulator)
Same emulator on both devices.
The hardware acceleration does not count as the last test includes Picodrive emulator that doesn't use HW acceleration at all. However, you can see that on SPV C600 the gameplay is smooth, something that we cannot say about the one on touch pro.
HTC Tornado (SPV C600)
TI OMAP 850 @ 200 MHz, overclocked at 252Mhz, chipset launched in 2005
Graphic: no Hardware Acceleration
In action: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFmUxwGBmMc
Touch Pro/Diamond
Qualcomm MSM7201A @ 528 MHz, chipset launched in 2008
Graphic: Not sure.. maybe embeded ATI Imageon?
In action: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QrLD8OGFk8w
(the device in video is a touch pro)
As you see, touch pro is below EVERYTHING. A tehnology from year 2008 is so way behind a tehnology from 3-4 years ago. It's looks so anormally to me..
@p51d007 I'm asking you now, Dell Axim x51v was marketed as a "business" or a multimedia device?
Point taken....the only response I could say would be HTC & graphics DON'T go together LOL...
DSF said:
@p51d007 I'm asking you now, Dell Axim x51v was marketed as a "business" or a multimedia device?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I saw some xperia drivers posted once that people were saying made the touch pro run better. Anyone ever look into this?
i'm from Diamond forum, but totally get what you're all saying here
I had a great game on my Elf called Chain Reaction. It was brilliant for killing a short amount of time while waiting for something/someone.... One of my problems with the Elf was that it wasn't powerful enough to multi-task at anything, like listen to music whilst playing a couple of rounds of Chain Reaction. I can't tell you how p****d I was when I fired up my Touch Pro for the first time and it realised it couldn't even play that game with anything like a smooth frame rate, let alone do it whilst listening to music. Never before have I spent so much money on a product that promised so much but delivered such a weird mix of 'that's really cool' and 'that's so poor/unreliable'. I've been emailing HTC for a month now asking them for a replacement unit or a refund (over the GPS issue), and I still haven't had a single reply. LOL....
Ouzo said:
I had a great game on my Elf called Chain Reaction. It was brilliant for killing a short amount of time while waiting for something/someone.... One of my problems with the Elf was that it wasn't powerful enough to multi-task at anything, like listen to music whilst playing a couple of rounds of Chain Reaction. I can't tell you how p****d I was when I fired up my Touch Pro for the first time and it realised it couldn't even play that game with anything like a smooth frame rate, let alone do it whilst listening to music. Never before have I spent so much money on a product that promised so much but delivered such a weird mix of 'that's really cool' and 'that's so poor/unreliable'. I've been emailing HTC for a month now asking them for a replacement unit or a refund (over the GPS issue), and I still haven't had a single reply. LOL....
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Just sent them an email myself. Hopefully enough people email them
so that we may get a proper update! Its ridiculous when I can barely run Quake 3 on this thing while my Viewsonic PPC runs it just fine!
And its not just about playing games either. The whole phone feels laggy..
Sorry to complain so much, but I paid good money for this thing..
And I like the design so much, I dont wanna return it just yet....
Coming from a Kaiser, and putting Elite RC1 on my Raphael, I was reasonably satisfied - until I got a G1.
Side by side is like pentium vs 486. My point being, they are running similar hardware, so I'm not sure the Qualcomm chipset is so crap after all.
I haven't seen any 3d accelerated stuff yet, but I know these devices are capable of great 3d gaming.
Indeed, as an Axim X50v owner I am dismayed at how immensely better it is in the graphics department, for a device so much older. HTC, Qualcomm or perhaps even a carrier needs to get off their hands and take care of the customers. Publicity may be one of the few tools we have, but I guess we might as well use it. Posting your displeasure here is as good an action as any, but take the time to comment or reply in any venue that you see these issues being discussed.
C'mon manufacturers/suppliers ... get those damn drivers out!
i do agree.
i began to get frustrated with my TP that i started thinking of selling it, there are alot of things that arent going well at all in its preformance, and since the thread is about preformance in general i have a bad experience with my TP laginess. and GPS for example my wife bought a diamond a couple of days ago, and some how her Diamond gets a fix in less than 30 seconds, my TP takes considerably longer. the device is really really laggy, i sometimes wonder it recieved my click or not when i touch the screen. and its video preformance is extreemly poor. i mean i have an XDA flame and a toshiba g900, i thought the G900 is a crappy phone but it has GoForce 5500 chipset with some driver update its video is becomming amazingly fast and smooth.
what makes me angry lets say is that im a WM fanatic and the company where i work distributed iphones on all of us to use in our business tasks, it was a surprise to be honest that the Iphone took over this market really wiered, but after testing it for a while its much faster than the TP and it scores much higher in all tests with a massive diffrence, the only WM phone that came near the Iphone is the Samsung omnia, i think i already know why. both are samsung CPUs i tested the samsung omina of my friend and i think the Omnia is the WM version of the Iphone.
THough HTC is the bigger sister in the smart phone world but she is letting her clients badly down with crappy drivers and sometimes crappy PDs.
best regards
Kevin
Well, we know the under-performing WM devices with qualcomm CPU, especially when coming to graphics. For example the MSM7200(A) & MSM7201A devices, such as: HTC Touch Pro, HTC Diamond, HTC HD, HTC TyTN II, etc
Reading different docs from qualcomm:
QUALCOMM provides wide range of best-in-class integrated
graphics solutions with the MSM7200 comparable to the DS
or PSP
APIs Accelerated: OpenGL ES 1.0 Common + some OpenGL ES 1.1, Direct 3D Mobile, SM2, JSR 184, BREW Render2D, Direct Draw, GDI
“Qualcomm Announces Highly Integrated Dual-CPU Single Chip Solutions for High-Performance Multimedia Wireless Devices”
“The 7xxx series addresses the growing consumer demand for higher-performance wireless devices delivering high-quality audio-visual and 2D/3D gaming”
“Very high performance 2D and 3D graphics, and video encode and decode support”
Peak performance: 3D: 4M TRIS /SEC, 2D: 133M PIXELS /SEC
Source:
http://www.qualcomm.com/news/releases/2003/press1217.html
http://sakajati.com/download/?nav=display&file=70
You can see how pathetic performs such a qualcomm device here: http://www.youtube.com/sergiowmo . You can find many videos where I've tested different games. They say that the graphics is comparable with PSP.. just look at the emulators comparison.
Where is the promised graphics performance?
Can this company be sued because of these notorious lies?
I'm starting to hate this company more & more (qualcomm). I don't care if htc has to pay for drivers, etc. They should provide what they promise. And anyway TP, Diamond comes with openGL HW drivers.. and let's be real, the performance is extremly poor in comparison to other HW-enabled devices (older devices, devices with lower CPU).
What irritates me more is the high graphics performance Qulacomm is advertising and in reality perform so badly. In other words I hate when someone is misleading and lying such way.. Just thinking at PSP (PlayStationPortable) comparison..
I learned my lesson with the HTC Touch Dual, the models of the brand are beatifull, but slow and dumb, like that crazy blond you will always stay away from, in the future.
It's not qualcomms fault, the devices might be capable of this performance, but it's HTCs fault, which refused to pay for drivers.
But the latest htc devices DOES have driver for 3D graphics. They have OpenGL hardware libraries and I'm really not satisfied with the 3D performance.
I've already seen this excuse so many times.. but ALL WM the devices that are using Qualcomm CPU are worse. Other vendors such as LG, TOSHIBA. All those companies haven't payed for the drivers? There's something in the middle..
http://www.glbenchmark.com/compare....tege&D2=HTC P4550 TyTN II (Kaiser)&D3=LG KS20
What's with this qualcomm crap policy? Haven't heard anything like this from Marvell, to promise something and in reality to be something else.
The 2D graphics aren't hardware accelerated indeed.. at least this is how it looks..
@twolf Samsung Omnia looks good and it's fast and smart too, thanks to the Marvell CPU. Unfortunately there's no OpenGL support .
Excellent thread. Just a couple of things to bear in mind though:
- There are developers working on graphics here.
- The Mobinnova ICE and LG Incite are both said to have the same processor as the SE X1 Xperia, Touch Diamond, Touch Pro and the HD, i.e. the Qualcomm MSM7201A 528Mhz processor. Hence we should wait for reports from owners of these devices to see if any drivers have come to fruition. The reason I say this is because in the past, it seems some drivers were taken from the LG KS20 (same MSM7200 400Mhz processor as TytN 2, Touch Cruise, Touch Dual and Sprint CDMA Touch) in the past for the aforementioned.
However, this is an important thread, so please keep it going, unless Qualcomm can clearly not be brought to account here.
DSF said:
@twolf Samsung Omnia looks good and it's fast and smart too, thanks to the Marvell CPU. Unfortunately there's no OpenGL support .
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I was playing around with an Omnia at the local Verizon Wireless store [only US carrier to offer it], and I was really f**kin impressed! The camera was as responsive as a good digital, and the screen/mouse combo is beautiful!
I am not an expert but I am totally agree withthe disapointing qualcomm...
Just let´s hope that HTC has noticed this and take it in mind for the next generation of 09 models just about to launch!
Great thread!
@nuke1 I've read that topic, but no resolution yet. Also, many people are benchmarking using diffrend D3D drivers, which is wrong, because that benchmark tool is using OpenGL not D3D (which is only a wrapper for OpenGL, D3D<=>OpenGL).
So.. we have 3D hardware accelerated drivers.. (unlike previous HTC devices, such as TyTN II) but we got poor performance.. I really would like to trust that porting the drivers from another device (eg: LG Incinte) will improve the (3d/2d) graphics experience on our phones.
@orb3000, actually they will continue the partnership with qualcomm, HTC is very proud of their colaboration, CEO Peter Chou said something like:
"qualcomm is one of our top very important ??? partnership ..
and i believe that this partnership will continue to go the next 10-20 years"
See http://www.qualcomm.com/who_we_are/success/index.htm#/HTC-video/ .
So, HTC seems preety happy with qualcomm solution.. yeah, i know that qualcomm provide a chipset (SoC) implementing various function, such as and not limited to: cpu, gpu, gps, wireless ...
Thanks guy for your support. Now let's spread to a global scale! I had enough of qualcomm lies or whateva.
@NotATreoFan I really hope that Samsung will focus on more powerfull WM devices and get ride of the damn proprietary connectors! Samsung really has potential.
I totally support this thread.
I bought my Diamond with a 528MHz CPU. This means, that this phone has to have a power of 528MHz CPU equipped phone. And I don't care how it will be done, and whether it will be in next models. Tbh I would feel screwed if they used the CPU in a better way in upcoming phones.
Also I wonder why we have 3D acceleration, but no 2D? Anyways, I feel we have some kind of 2D slowdown. My previous smart phone was a Siemens SX1 (S60, Symbian 6.1, 120MHz OMAP CPU, released in 2003 or 2004, 176*208 res). I was able to play fluent Sega Master System (SMS Plus S60, free and excellent) games with sound, nearly-perfectly fluent Picodrive (no sound for S60, some frameskip but no close to Touch Pro vids on youtube) and well, playable GBA (vBagX trial, commercial). Picodrive is not tested, Sega Master System via morphgear (atleast the trial) is less fluent, and GBA via PocketGBA has too much frameskip. And please don't tell it is everything because screen is X times bigger. Architecture of CPU should be better. Come on, we have also a CPU to emulate, sound, input... And I am pretty sure SX1's OMAP had no graphics chip inside.
Just wanted to jump in and make a quick small comment:
I have a vogue, it is terrible (speed, graphic performance etc..)
I also have android on that vogue, and when using android things are SSOOOO much smoother it blows my mind, and makes me realize how much is truly the fault of another MS crap product.
In android I can flick that screen to scroll in the browser and it is so smooth with never a single hiccup or anything of the sort...
My 2 cents,
Jim.
That's one of thereasons why SONY broke up with HTC
I guess SONY will continue to move on over the WinMo platform, maybe with another partnership with another company (ASUS?)
HTC should be worried now that SONY is in town
I bet we will start to see better devices as the second generation Xperia soon
An after having the tytn, diamond, etc, I can confirm the XPERIA performance blows away them all, OMG no comparison here: it's a step further
here is what the Iphone can do on an ARM based CPU running at 400Mhz with hardware accelerated graphics. notice the framerate (smoothness).
http://www.techeblog.com/index.php/tech-gadget/need-for-speed-iphone
it disgusts me that the 528Mhz Qualcomm chip that has 3D acceleration (but no working drivers) relies on the CPU core to do all the "desktop" windows drawing and even 3D (unless you hacked drivers).
Two things!
1. CPU or GPU overload?
Today I did a small test. I thought that if the CPU is overloaded any more load will slow down the emulator. So I fired up WMP with a MP3 and the emu. I felt no slowdown at all.
Don't forget we don't drivers for CPU. We need them for GPU.
2. HTC/Qualcomm vs math
MSM7201A can render 133000000 pixels a second.
A fluent gameplay is 60 fps.
By dividing 133M by 60 we get 2216666 frames each 1/60th a second.
VGA screen is 640*480 pixels = 307200.
So how much screens we can fill during 1/60 of a second? Let's see... 2216666 / 307200 = 7.215709635 screens to fill.
Where we lose 6 screens?
p3ngwin said:
here is what the Iphone can do on an ARM based CPU running at 400Mhz with hardware accelerated graphics. notice the framerate (smoothness).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's the industry favorite 3D powered by PowerVR from Imagination Technologies. If you look at most of the great performing 3D out there right now (N95, etc), it's usually has PowerVR components in it or Nvidia, NOT ATI.
It also helps they optimized the drivers in the system end-to-end (instead of optimizing for TouchFlo), and it's not using HTC nor Qualcomm.
NuShrike said:
That's the industry favorite 3D powered by PowerVR from Imagination Technologies. If you look at most of the great performing 3D out there right now (N95, etc), it's usually has PowerVR components in it or Nvidia, NOT ATI.
It also helps they optimized the drivers in the system end-to-end (instead of optimizing for TouchFlo), and it's not using HTC nor Qualcomm.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
they have different graphics hardware, yet we should be getting an experience that is at LEAST recognizable as in the same graphics ballpark as opposed to the pathetic sorry state we have now.
p3ngwin said:
here is what the Iphone can do on an ARM based CPU running at 400Mhz with hardware accelerated graphics. notice the framerate (smoothness).
http://www.techeblog.com/index.php/tech-gadget/need-for-speed-iphone
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
ah yes... need for speed mobile.. i need an fruit phone now!!
Oh yeah how great it is. I understand graphics are really great but controls are tragic. Playing this using accelerometer must be a pain. I played asphalt gt racing on iphone and I turned it off after 2 minutes (I'm surprised that I lasted this long trying to play it).
If apple want to make iPhone good for mobile gaming give it some psychical button or help guys working on iControlPad with it and release it ASAP.
For now iPhone is nice graphics but lacks at control.
Unluckily all phone manufacturers (including HTC) seem to get rid of d-pads.
What you got in Diamond is barely useful. Up/down is good, left/right is usable only with one hand if you want to be fast (left hand for right, and right hand for left), and the center button is easy to press.
back to topic: thanks to Qualcomm even if we had awesome joysticks we wouldn't be able to play better games with them.
If you know how to use dpad on TD it gets quite nice.
Besides poor dpad is better than no dpad, at least you don't have to twist your arms like madman trying to turn when playing games like need for speed or asphalt racing
Wishmaster89 said:
If you know how to use dpad on TD it gets quite nice.
Besides poor dpad is better than no dpad, at least you don't have to twist your arms like madman trying to turn when playing games like need for speed or asphalt racing
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Poor dpad is inexcusable on a $800 device. You also must be a horrible Wipeout player.