Well, we know the under-performing WM devices with qualcomm CPU, especially when coming to graphics. For example the MSM7200(A) & MSM7201A devices, such as: HTC Touch Pro, HTC Diamond, HTC HD, HTC TyTN II, etc
Reading different docs from qualcomm:
QUALCOMM provides wide range of best-in-class integrated
graphics solutions with the MSM7200 comparable to the DS
or PSP
APIs Accelerated: OpenGL ES 1.0 Common + some OpenGL ES 1.1, Direct 3D Mobile, SM2, JSR 184, BREW Render2D, Direct Draw, GDI
“Qualcomm Announces Highly Integrated Dual-CPU Single Chip Solutions for High-Performance Multimedia Wireless Devices”
“The 7xxx series addresses the growing consumer demand for higher-performance wireless devices delivering high-quality audio-visual and 2D/3D gaming”
“Very high performance 2D and 3D graphics, and video encode and decode support”
Peak performance: 3D: 4M TRIS /SEC, 2D: 133M PIXELS /SEC
Source:
http://www.qualcomm.com/news/releases/2003/press1217.html
http://sakajati.com/download/?nav=display&file=70
You can see how pathetic performs such a qualcomm device here: http://www.youtube.com/sergiowmo . You can find many videos where I've tested different games. They say that the graphics is comparable with PSP.. just look at the emulators comparison.
Where is the promised graphics performance?
Can this company be sued because of these notorious lies?
I'm starting to hate this company more & more (qualcomm). I don't care if htc has to pay for drivers, etc. They should provide what they promise. And anyway TP, Diamond comes with openGL HW drivers.. and let's be real, the performance is extremly poor in comparison to other HW-enabled devices (older devices, devices with lower CPU).
What irritates me more is the high graphics performance Qulacomm is advertising and in reality perform so badly. In other words I hate when someone is misleading and lying such way.. Just thinking at PSP (PlayStationPortable) comparison..
I learned my lesson with the HTC Touch Dual, the models of the brand are beatifull, but slow and dumb, like that crazy blond you will always stay away from, in the future.
It's not qualcomms fault, the devices might be capable of this performance, but it's HTCs fault, which refused to pay for drivers.
But the latest htc devices DOES have driver for 3D graphics. They have OpenGL hardware libraries and I'm really not satisfied with the 3D performance.
I've already seen this excuse so many times.. but ALL WM the devices that are using Qualcomm CPU are worse. Other vendors such as LG, TOSHIBA. All those companies haven't payed for the drivers? There's something in the middle..
http://www.glbenchmark.com/compare....tege&D2=HTC P4550 TyTN II (Kaiser)&D3=LG KS20
What's with this qualcomm crap policy? Haven't heard anything like this from Marvell, to promise something and in reality to be something else.
The 2D graphics aren't hardware accelerated indeed.. at least this is how it looks..
@twolf Samsung Omnia looks good and it's fast and smart too, thanks to the Marvell CPU. Unfortunately there's no OpenGL support .
Excellent thread. Just a couple of things to bear in mind though:
- There are developers working on graphics here.
- The Mobinnova ICE and LG Incite are both said to have the same processor as the SE X1 Xperia, Touch Diamond, Touch Pro and the HD, i.e. the Qualcomm MSM7201A 528Mhz processor. Hence we should wait for reports from owners of these devices to see if any drivers have come to fruition. The reason I say this is because in the past, it seems some drivers were taken from the LG KS20 (same MSM7200 400Mhz processor as TytN 2, Touch Cruise, Touch Dual and Sprint CDMA Touch) in the past for the aforementioned.
However, this is an important thread, so please keep it going, unless Qualcomm can clearly not be brought to account here.
DSF said:
@twolf Samsung Omnia looks good and it's fast and smart too, thanks to the Marvell CPU. Unfortunately there's no OpenGL support .
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I was playing around with an Omnia at the local Verizon Wireless store [only US carrier to offer it], and I was really f**kin impressed! The camera was as responsive as a good digital, and the screen/mouse combo is beautiful!
I am not an expert but I am totally agree withthe disapointing qualcomm...
Just let´s hope that HTC has noticed this and take it in mind for the next generation of 09 models just about to launch!
Great thread!
@nuke1 I've read that topic, but no resolution yet. Also, many people are benchmarking using diffrend D3D drivers, which is wrong, because that benchmark tool is using OpenGL not D3D (which is only a wrapper for OpenGL, D3D<=>OpenGL).
So.. we have 3D hardware accelerated drivers.. (unlike previous HTC devices, such as TyTN II) but we got poor performance.. I really would like to trust that porting the drivers from another device (eg: LG Incinte) will improve the (3d/2d) graphics experience on our phones.
@orb3000, actually they will continue the partnership with qualcomm, HTC is very proud of their colaboration, CEO Peter Chou said something like:
"qualcomm is one of our top very important ??? partnership ..
and i believe that this partnership will continue to go the next 10-20 years"
See http://www.qualcomm.com/who_we_are/success/index.htm#/HTC-video/ .
So, HTC seems preety happy with qualcomm solution.. yeah, i know that qualcomm provide a chipset (SoC) implementing various function, such as and not limited to: cpu, gpu, gps, wireless ...
Thanks guy for your support. Now let's spread to a global scale! I had enough of qualcomm lies or whateva.
@NotATreoFan I really hope that Samsung will focus on more powerfull WM devices and get ride of the damn proprietary connectors! Samsung really has potential.
I totally support this thread.
I bought my Diamond with a 528MHz CPU. This means, that this phone has to have a power of 528MHz CPU equipped phone. And I don't care how it will be done, and whether it will be in next models. Tbh I would feel screwed if they used the CPU in a better way in upcoming phones.
Also I wonder why we have 3D acceleration, but no 2D? Anyways, I feel we have some kind of 2D slowdown. My previous smart phone was a Siemens SX1 (S60, Symbian 6.1, 120MHz OMAP CPU, released in 2003 or 2004, 176*208 res). I was able to play fluent Sega Master System (SMS Plus S60, free and excellent) games with sound, nearly-perfectly fluent Picodrive (no sound for S60, some frameskip but no close to Touch Pro vids on youtube) and well, playable GBA (vBagX trial, commercial). Picodrive is not tested, Sega Master System via morphgear (atleast the trial) is less fluent, and GBA via PocketGBA has too much frameskip. And please don't tell it is everything because screen is X times bigger. Architecture of CPU should be better. Come on, we have also a CPU to emulate, sound, input... And I am pretty sure SX1's OMAP had no graphics chip inside.
Just wanted to jump in and make a quick small comment:
I have a vogue, it is terrible (speed, graphic performance etc..)
I also have android on that vogue, and when using android things are SSOOOO much smoother it blows my mind, and makes me realize how much is truly the fault of another MS crap product.
In android I can flick that screen to scroll in the browser and it is so smooth with never a single hiccup or anything of the sort...
My 2 cents,
Jim.
That's one of thereasons why SONY broke up with HTC
I guess SONY will continue to move on over the WinMo platform, maybe with another partnership with another company (ASUS?)
HTC should be worried now that SONY is in town
I bet we will start to see better devices as the second generation Xperia soon
An after having the tytn, diamond, etc, I can confirm the XPERIA performance blows away them all, OMG no comparison here: it's a step further
here is what the Iphone can do on an ARM based CPU running at 400Mhz with hardware accelerated graphics. notice the framerate (smoothness).
http://www.techeblog.com/index.php/tech-gadget/need-for-speed-iphone
it disgusts me that the 528Mhz Qualcomm chip that has 3D acceleration (but no working drivers) relies on the CPU core to do all the "desktop" windows drawing and even 3D (unless you hacked drivers).
Two things!
1. CPU or GPU overload?
Today I did a small test. I thought that if the CPU is overloaded any more load will slow down the emulator. So I fired up WMP with a MP3 and the emu. I felt no slowdown at all.
Don't forget we don't drivers for CPU. We need them for GPU.
2. HTC/Qualcomm vs math
MSM7201A can render 133000000 pixels a second.
A fluent gameplay is 60 fps.
By dividing 133M by 60 we get 2216666 frames each 1/60th a second.
VGA screen is 640*480 pixels = 307200.
So how much screens we can fill during 1/60 of a second? Let's see... 2216666 / 307200 = 7.215709635 screens to fill.
Where we lose 6 screens?
p3ngwin said:
here is what the Iphone can do on an ARM based CPU running at 400Mhz with hardware accelerated graphics. notice the framerate (smoothness).
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
That's the industry favorite 3D powered by PowerVR from Imagination Technologies. If you look at most of the great performing 3D out there right now (N95, etc), it's usually has PowerVR components in it or Nvidia, NOT ATI.
It also helps they optimized the drivers in the system end-to-end (instead of optimizing for TouchFlo), and it's not using HTC nor Qualcomm.
NuShrike said:
That's the industry favorite 3D powered by PowerVR from Imagination Technologies. If you look at most of the great performing 3D out there right now (N95, etc), it's usually has PowerVR components in it or Nvidia, NOT ATI.
It also helps they optimized the drivers in the system end-to-end (instead of optimizing for TouchFlo), and it's not using HTC nor Qualcomm.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
they have different graphics hardware, yet we should be getting an experience that is at LEAST recognizable as in the same graphics ballpark as opposed to the pathetic sorry state we have now.
p3ngwin said:
here is what the Iphone can do on an ARM based CPU running at 400Mhz with hardware accelerated graphics. notice the framerate (smoothness).
http://www.techeblog.com/index.php/tech-gadget/need-for-speed-iphone
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
ah yes... need for speed mobile.. i need an fruit phone now!!
Oh yeah how great it is. I understand graphics are really great but controls are tragic. Playing this using accelerometer must be a pain. I played asphalt gt racing on iphone and I turned it off after 2 minutes (I'm surprised that I lasted this long trying to play it).
If apple want to make iPhone good for mobile gaming give it some psychical button or help guys working on iControlPad with it and release it ASAP.
For now iPhone is nice graphics but lacks at control.
Unluckily all phone manufacturers (including HTC) seem to get rid of d-pads.
What you got in Diamond is barely useful. Up/down is good, left/right is usable only with one hand if you want to be fast (left hand for right, and right hand for left), and the center button is easy to press.
back to topic: thanks to Qualcomm even if we had awesome joysticks we wouldn't be able to play better games with them.
If you know how to use dpad on TD it gets quite nice.
Besides poor dpad is better than no dpad, at least you don't have to twist your arms like madman trying to turn when playing games like need for speed or asphalt racing
Wishmaster89 said:
If you know how to use dpad on TD it gets quite nice.
Besides poor dpad is better than no dpad, at least you don't have to twist your arms like madman trying to turn when playing games like need for speed or asphalt racing
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Poor dpad is inexcusable on a $800 device. You also must be a horrible Wipeout player.
Related
I did a quick search but didn't find anything about the PSP or DS that I could view at work, besides maybe the PSP having a 333Mhz core and a 166Mhz core for graphics. I'm curious as to how PPCs compare to the current handheld gaming systems.
I realize that emulators have to run on top of the operating system, but lets say there was a way around that - perhaps loading a secondary, minimal OS that would allow for more resources to be allocated to the emulator/platform.
Could a PPC device stand with or surpass these current handheld consoles?
I guess an even more direct question would be:
When do you think PPC will advance to the point that it can also serve as a game system in much the way these handhelds do?
dont know much about ds and psp
but if they have special chips to handle
tasts like graphics and sound
their software is spicial written to handle those tasks
and a emulator have much much more overhead then the os they run on
everytime the bins of the software say "mov register0x0f to alu1" or something like that it have to be wrapped to whatever register and value
the emulator's hardware support
IMHO, a massive no.
When I bought my PSP I was horrified as to the massive difference between graphics and presentation on the dedicated device compared to a PDA. The PSP blows all current pocket PCs away in terms of graphics capabilities - the old established standard for pocketpcs didn't require any form of specialist hardware acceleration. Unfortunately, games are increasingly moving over to 3d and high CPU load processing (on PCs and consoles), and "old" PDAs were not designed with that in mind, or to address that.
However, have a look at some of the PDAs that have come out with dedicated high end graphics processors built in, eg the Dells.
http://www.aximsite.com/boards/games/98674-x50v-x51v-2700g-accelerated-game-list.html
http://www.pocketpcmag.com/blogs/index.php?blog=3&p=661&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1
With the dedicated Intel 2700g graphics look good, but still not quite as good as a PSP.
The newer line up of PDAs will probably have better chips, but until Microsoft starts to mandate some kind of hardware benchmark for the platform, it'll still be more of a productivity/enterprise device, that also plays some games well. So it's more of a jack of all trades, quite good at some.
IMHO.
V
The O2 XDA Flame has a NVIDIA® GoForce® 5500 3D Hardware Accelerator I have not seen or tested it but it must be impressive.
http://www.seeo2.com/product/XdaFlame/template/XdaFlameProductInfo.vm
but it only does any good if the software is made to take advantage of it
otherwise it will still be the cpu doing all the work
ms is not really ready with a true dx for wm yet
and any game maker who put alot of work into supporting it only have a rather small market
Rudegar said:
but it only does any good if the software is made to take advantage of it
otherwise it will still be the cpu doing all the work
ms is not really ready with a true dx for wm yet
and any game maker who put alot of work into supporting it only have a rather small market
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
What exactly does this mean? I've been looking into code for DirectX in PPC and some of the samples I've seen have had the software check for hardware support.
Still, theoretically, if a high-end PPC with 400-600MHz CPU and a GPU with very little overhead, one would think that a descent game could be created.
I just got done playing Wolfenstien on my 8525 .. which is 400mhz and such .. and it kind of sucked.. lol..
The gap between PSP and PPC is so huge, it can't even be classified in the same device category. The PSP simply put is a real gaming portable, the Pocket PC is a PDA. No ifs and buts about it.
Now the DS, that's a lot closer to the PPC, and I would say many PPC models push out better visuals and audio compared to what a DS can provide. But don't expect any games on the DS to run on the Pocket PC!
nVidia GeForce and PureVideo HD technology.
ARM11 Architecture.
Up to 720p HD Video decoding (and encoding!)
Up to 1280x1024 display support.
Ultra low power arcitecture (10 hours of HD playback, 1000 hours of MP3 playback!!!)*
Native drivers for Direct3D Mobile Shader Model 3.0 and Open GL ES 2.0 (DirectX 9.0c equivelent).
Advanced anti aliasing for 3D applications.
User accesible drivers, publically available and upgradable by the end user(!)
Propietery 3D users interface to replace the mundane Windows Mobile shell.
http://www.nvidia.co.uk/object/apx_2500_uk.html
*Couldn't find that info on the webpage but it's in their press release they sent out yesterday.
Sounds pretty much like a dream come true.
Sure it will most probably have drawbacks and it doesn't have integrated GPS etc. But still, could turn out to be a pretty amazing platform. I especially like the part that software will be end user upgradable.
Full press release in the post below:
MOBILE WORLD CONGRESS 2008—BARCELONA, SPAIN—FEBRUARY 11, 2008—
NVIDIA Corporation, the world leader in visual computing technologies, today introduced NVIDIA® APX 2500, a breakthrough applications processor that enables intuitive 3D user interfaces and engaging high-definition video on connected Windows Mobile phones. The APX 2500 applications processor delivers an unprecedented 10 hours of 720p HD playback—an industry first for video quality and power consumption on a mobile device, as well as stunning HD camcorder and ultra-high-resolution photo imaging capabilities.
“This is the dawn of the second personal computer revolution,” said Jen-Hsun Huang, president and CEO of NVIDIA. “Technologies are converging in amazing mobile devices that have all of the rich, visual capabilities of a modern PC—from watching movies and making video calls to surfing the web and playing 3D games. The APX 2500, combined with Microsoft® Windows Mobile, will make the next generation of smartphones our most personal computer.”
NVIDIA has worked closely with Microsoft on the development of APX 2500, marking a significant milestone in a long-term relationship that has seen the companies share a passion for making interaction with technology more visual and instinctive across multiple platforms. The combined engineering efforts of the two companies will ensure that next generation versions of the Windows Mobile operating system will harness the capabilities of the APX 2500 applications processor across challenging multimedia use cases.
“Microsoft is dedicated to providing people true mobile freedom, so that they only need to carry one device for both communication and entertainment,” said Todd Warren, corporate vice president of Microsoft’s mobile communication business. “We are delighted to work with NVIDIA to offer our users an amazing visual experience on the next-generation Windows Mobile phones.”
The NVIDIA APX 2500 applications processor, which is the culmination of 800 man years of engineering, delivers:
• The industry’s first HD (720p) playback and capture capability for handheld devices
• A new ultra-low-power (ULP) GeForce® core that is fully OpenGL ES 2.0 and Microsoft Direct3D® Mobile compliant and the lowest power 3D hardware solution available for acceleration of intuitive 3D user interfaces
• NVIDIA nPower™ technology, enabling over 10 hours of high-definition video playback and up to 100 hours of audio—more than four times the audio playback of the latest touch-screen phones
• The connectivity and media acceleration technologies required to enable the latest Web 2.0 applications, from effortless web browsing and social networking to GPS and mapping applications.
Just one word: WOW....
Ok.. two more: Wanna have...
We will see. I remember O2 Flame use Nvidia video chip too but it's basically useless since no driver support.
All these kaiser killers making me regret getting an 18 month contract as of december b4 knowing about the video driver problem *searches for gun*
jackleung said:
We will see. I remember O2 Flame use Nvidia video chip too but it's basically useless since no driver support.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
From what I know it isn't so much lack of driver support as lack of applications?
In any case, this is quite different. It's a whole architecture (as opposed to nVidias earlier attempts which were just obile GPUs) and as mentioned there will be user downloadable driver for it from the start.
And in any case, this platforms main purpose (unlike the MSM 7200) is graphics and video so no OEM in their right mind would use it unless they enable it fully. (There are cheaper and less complex alternatives if you just want a general PDA chipset.)
Rather than a Kaiser killer, could it be potentially a PSP/DS competitor?! (definitely not PSP/DS killer though)
---
Infuruno said:
All these kaiser killers making me regret getting an 18 month contract as of december b4 knowing about the video driver problem *searches for gun*
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
How about those of us that only signed 18-month contracts to O2 for Polaris last week...
I saw this yesterday, it's nice, something of an iPhone rip-off and definitely quite a powerful bit of kit, but it's a bit too po-faced and arsey for my liking
Olipro said:
I saw this yesterday, it's nice, something of an iPhone rip-off and definitely quite a powerful bit of kit, but it's a bit too po-faced and arsey for my liking
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think you're a bit confused.
this is just a chipset.
you are probably thinking of the new SE phone but that phone has absolutely nothing to do with this chipset
regarding being a PSP/DS killer, yes: performancewise this will slaughter a DS and will be noticably more powerful than a PSP (it will never be a psp/ds killer in terms of gaming value though since games for winmo are few and pretty poor on average of course)
Olipro said:
I saw this yesterday, it's nice, something of an iPhone rip-off and definitely quite a powerful bit of kit, but it's a bit too po-faced and arsey for my liking
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
lol, nice one!
I hope that was just a joke since iPhone is just plain'old 2D (no 3D hardware)
http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/ind...announces_the_apx_2500_for_windows_mobile.htm
^wow, just wow. =D
what sux is the long wait 2010? 2011? 2020? dangit i wanted this 20 years ago!!!!
imagine playing crysis on the celly =P. nah, i'm content with playing 320x240 smoothly on the small screen, something current phones still have a ton of issues doing. that a lot more codex.
I waited quite a while for the kaiser to come out, and now that it is out of course there is another twinkle in the sky, about then there will be another, there is no real catching up with technology.
undac said:
I think you're a bit confused.
this is just a chipset.
you are probably thinking of the new SE phone but that phone has absolutely nothing to do with this chipset
regarding being a PSP/DS killer, yes: performancewise this will slaughter a DS and will be noticably more powerful than a PSP (it will never be a psp/ds killer in terms of gaming value though since games for winmo are few and pretty poor on average of course)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I think he's talking about the prototype nvidia built. You can see it in action on youtube: http://youtube.com/results?search_query=nvidia+apx+2500&search_type=
Change the name of the thread, its retarded.
Anyways, I'm very impressed. however don't expect this puppy to be released on any PDA's anytime soon. atleast not for another 2 years
Let's talk about the Touch Pro performance.
I will post some quotes.
branko.savic said:
Ok, so just to be fair I did some more testings on all three of my devices to find the optimal settings, here is the results:
Test performed on same video, with coreplayer 1.2.5, and optimal settings for each device:
Omnia:
Raw framebuffer: 442.74%
Universal:
Direct Draw: 165.28%
Touch Pro:
QTv display: 152.44%
Smooth Zoom and Dither turned off on each device!
So in conclusion, again Omnia wins by a huge 277.46% over the next best device that is the Universal. And even then the Universal is 12.84% better then the Touch Pro!
Please bare in mind that the Universal is a three years old device with only 64MB ram, while Touch pro is brand new and 288MB ram! They have same clock speed but Touch pro is supposed to have a better/newer chipset then the Universal!
There is no doubt in my mind anymore, Touch pro is missing the video drivers, or could it just be that qualcomm chipset just sucks?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
DSF said:
poor directdraw, framebuffer/video performance. Just to make an idea: an old device from 2005 with omap 850 200mhz CPU performs better in this area than the touch pro @ qualcomm 528mhz. what a shame. The test were done in this topic (in romanian, sorry). CorePlayer was used for benchmark. I will summarize.
- HTC Tornado overclocked (262Mhz) max performance: 174.22%
- Touch Pro max performance: 172,67%
Both in Raw framebuffer mode. When used QTV it gains only 162,64%. How come?
It's pitty, 262Mhz from OMAP performs better than 528!!!Mhz from Qualcomm?!
The video used for tests is this one. (320x240 @ 25FPS)
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
So what do you think? Are the qualcomm chipsets just junk or we got poor drivers? Personally, I was hoping that HTC did learn something after the HTC TyTN II issues..
Another prove of sh*ty graphics on touch pro: Touch Pro landscape redraw issue (videos included)
Furthermore I would like to make some recommendations to see the true performance of touch pro:
- Rats!! http://clickgamer.com/download.htm?pvid=15358
- Ubulis TSE http://www.ionfx.com/product_windows_mobile_obulisTSE.htm (note the req: "200Mhz CPU or higher"
- Spore
- Prince of Persia HD
- Assasin Creed HD
- etc.
Wonderfull, the graphics are so fluid... NOT.
How about GL benchmarks between the iPhone, Kaiser, Raphael, and Toshiba G810 Portege?
http://www.glbenchmark.com/compare....ser)&D3=HTC Touch Pro&D4=Toshiba G810 Portege
A lot of it is the quality of HTC's drivers since the Portege does better, but the rest is Qualcomm's fault because even the Protege is inferior compared to an iPhone, N95, etc etc.
However, I cannot find a better phone that has a decent 3D chip on it, has at&t 3G, touch screen, and isn't NDA locked.
If Qualcomm is such crap, then why oh why is HTC using it on all new devices?
Keep me wondering!
NuShrike, Touch Pro has a newer CPU that the one found on Toshiba G810 Portege, however, the benchmarks are still unsatisfying.
Here's some interesting information
Q: HTC, Qualcomm and the missing drivers—where do we send the angry mob with torches?
A: Qualcomm has a tiered pricing policy with their chipsets—so although you bought the chip, you have not bought all the features. So you have to pay additional fees per phone to get things like aGPS, graphic acceleration, etc.
In the past, HTC had no problems when using the older MSM-6500 chips (ARM9 processors) without drivers hence their reluctance to pay for any or additional support with the new MSM-7500 chips (ARM11 processors), especially since the newer processors were advertised to match or outperform the older generation.
Unfortunately, Qualcomm’s ARM11 performance does not match their previous ARM9 processor and is therefore, not quite as advertised. To get the proper performance out of the ARM11, one has to have knowledge of the processor’s implementation and design, but since that processor is not publicly available; the solution requires cooperation and assistance. HTC in this instance does not have this knowledge and is therefore unable to directly fix the problem, so they are put in a tough situation as they already have millions of these devices sold but they don’t want to pay Qualcomm more than they have to.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Full article: http://wmexperts.com/articles/editorials/qualcomm_htc_chipsets_and_feat.html
And here we've got a comparison between touch pro and dell axim v51v (a VGA PocketPC from year 2005).
http://www.glbenchmark.com/compare....whide=true&D1=HTC Touch Pro&D2=Dell Axim X51v
(I've bold the VGA because there are some users that are trying to find excuses of poor performance because of VGA resolution)
branko.savic said:
If Qualcomm is such crap, then why oh why is HTC using it on all new devices?
Keep me wondering!
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Because Qualcomm owns wcdma! Anyone developing chipsets will have to pay them royalties which in the end increases cost of the chips and handsets.
branko.savic said:
If Qualcomm is such crap, then why oh why is HTC using it on all new devices?
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
They probably make their hardware really cheap compared to other solutions.
There aren't many others (or at all) that package 3G WCDMA, asymmetric dual-core ARM11/ARM9, GPS, (WiFi?), BT?, and 3D GPU all into one at a pretty good power envelope.
The problem sounds like it's $$$ to access any of Q's advanced features, and they're not even that good.
Funny part is the CPU design was licensed from ARM in 2002 and is only hitting mainstream last year with the Kaiser/N95. However, it seems Qualcomm never licensed FPU capable ARM11 design, versus TI (N95 cpu) and Samsung (iPhone cpu) whom did.
If the video issue was the only problem...
Sometime it really annoys me how poor can perform... When I was thinking to switch from my HTC Tornado (TI OMAP 850 CPU (180Mhz)) I was saying the performance difference must be enormous , but I find that those qualcomm CPUs are crap or the drivers sucks.. (but I tend to think it's the first variant). I really want that my device to perform well while listening to music, not to wait 1-2 sec for Start Menu to appear (atention, Start Menu, not Programs list, while scrolling in that list the things are so laggy, but that's a WM issue, so I pass. I've got a lot of apps installed)
I'm really dissapointed of crappy performance. My first and last qualcomm cpu-enabled device. If I know that before buying... but no one complains of this, all worship it (for eg, see gsmarena review).
An advice for interested people in buying Touch Pro: if you want a good device PASS touch pro.
It simply doesn't deserve it's price. It has a lot of super nice features (5 row qwerty, plenty of RAM, good amount of ROM, accelerometer, multiple sensors, good shape, superb VGA resolution, HSPDA, etc etc) but has soo many issues (low volume, crap speakerphone/earpiece, music gap, slider play, gps lag, poor directdraw performance, landscape redraw issue, poor overall system performance..)
I really expected way much more from a 2008 year device and especially from HTC!
BTW, I'm using a custom ROM (T.I.R V8), so no I'm not using the factory ROM
What I'm wondering is that just a few owners joined the topic.. so, I guess, that the performance of your touch pro doesn't bother you..
then, we shouldn't be surprised if HTC isn't interested. They think that we are happy with the performance of the device.
Edit: http://brew.qualcomm.com/bnry_brew/pdf/brew_2007/Tech-303_Ligon.pdf - see page 13. And that's MSM72000. We got MSM7201A chipset on Touch Pro (better). So in final may be HTC fault? I'm so confused
Yep, have to agree the performance is abysmal. I heard HTC didn't want to pay some company for a proper graphics driver.... but thats just hearsay.
And have you seen the HTC HD? From the youtube videos I've watched ot goes like s**t off a shovel, seems they managed to get that thing working properly, if they'd only do an update for other devices.
Guys.. we need to do something, I'm really dissapointed about touch pro performance.
Look here how smooth does run quake 3 on nokia n82 (CPU: TI OMAP 2420 @ 330 MHz*): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1i4fOCrCv0
"Quake 3 Arena Running on nokia n82 in perfect speed,with all graphics settings set to high and Anti-Aliasing ON!!!!"
If you want, I will record a video showing quake 3 in action on touch pro, low fps, choppy sound, etc.
* Embedded 220MHz TI TMS320C55x DSP (GSM/GPRS/EDGE/UMTS baseband), 640KB shared SRAM, 2D/3D graphics acceleration, dual display support, analog/digital TV video output, TI TWL92230 companion chip
http://pdadb.net/index.php?m=cpu&id=a2420
Is that fair..?
I just don't know what to say. The time is passing and nothing's done in this direction..
@Gav_ haven't seen touch hd running other stuff than internet browsing (opera with the full quares when dragging, etc..), youtube, general menu browsing..
DSF said:
Guys.. we need to do something, I'm really dissapointed about touch pro performance.
Look here how smooth does run quake 3 on nokia n82 (CPU: TI OMAP 2420 @ 330 MHz*): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1i4fOCrCv0
"Quake 3 Arena Running on nokia n82 in perfect speed,with all graphics settings set to high and Anti-Aliasing ON!!!!"
If you want, I will record a video showing quake 3 in action on touch pro, low fps, choppy sound, etc.
* Embedded 220MHz TI TMS320C55x DSP (GSM/GPRS/EDGE/UMTS baseband), 640KB shared SRAM, 2D/3D graphics acceleration, dual display support, analog/digital TV video output, TI TWL92230 companion chip
http://pdadb.net/index.php?m=cpu&id=a2420
Is that fair..?
I just don't know what to say. The time is passing and nothing's done in this direction..
@Gav_ haven't seen touch hd running other stuff than internet browsing (opera with the full quares when dragging, etc..), youtube, general menu browsing..
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
I totally TOTALLY agree. I mean how can we fix this? How much time is going to go by until the chipset can finally do what it should be able to do?
The only take I have on these devices, is that they are pretty much marketed as "business class" devices. Yeah, they will play video, but you know that if they market it as a "business" device, they probably won't do much. If they
marketed it as a gaming device, or video music player, it might be a different
story. They made a Swiss army knife, but it doesn't do any of them well.
I'm happy with my TP, but I don't listen to music or watch videos, other than once in a while a youtube. I have mine for receiving email, text messages & phone calls, which, if you could get an honest answer from HTC, is where they think the market is for these devices.
@djcaston only HTC & Qualcomm knows..
No idea how we can fix this, but we should do something (make this public, e-mail htc, publish on mobile news site, etc). The solution/answer SHOULD come from the companies mentioned above.
@p51d007 but the DIAMOND is marked as a "business class" device too? I don't think so.
Even as a business device is not working too good. Just try some powerpoint presentations, open a doc file and see how much time it takes to load.
So..
I've made more comparisons.
Quake III Arema
Nokia N82 - Symbian S60 QVGA
TI OMAP 2420 @ 330 MHz, chipset launched in 2005
Graphic: PowerVR MBX
In action: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1i4fOCrCv0
Dell Axim x51v - WM VGA
Intel XScale PXA270 @ 624 MHz, chipset launched in 2004
Graphic: Intel 2700G5 Multimedia Accelerator
In action: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEuEGqYZNek
Touch Pro/Diamond
Qualcomm MSM7201A @ 528 MHz, chipset launched in 2008
Graphic: Not sure.. maybe embeded ATI Imageon?
In action: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=x8_wfWaYa_w
(the device in video is a touch pro)
SEGA Sonic 3 (Picodrive emulator)
Same emulator on both devices.
The hardware acceleration does not count as the last test includes Picodrive emulator that doesn't use HW acceleration at all. However, you can see that on SPV C600 the gameplay is smooth, something that we cannot say about the one on touch pro.
HTC Tornado (SPV C600)
TI OMAP 850 @ 200 MHz, overclocked at 252Mhz, chipset launched in 2005
Graphic: no Hardware Acceleration
In action: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFmUxwGBmMc
Touch Pro/Diamond
Qualcomm MSM7201A @ 528 MHz, chipset launched in 2008
Graphic: Not sure.. maybe embeded ATI Imageon?
In action: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QrLD8OGFk8w
(the device in video is a touch pro)
As you see, touch pro is below EVERYTHING. A tehnology from year 2008 is so way behind a tehnology from 3-4 years ago. It's looks so anormally to me..
@p51d007 I'm asking you now, Dell Axim x51v was marketed as a "business" or a multimedia device?
Point taken....the only response I could say would be HTC & graphics DON'T go together LOL...
DSF said:
@p51d007 I'm asking you now, Dell Axim x51v was marketed as a "business" or a multimedia device?
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Click to collapse
I saw some xperia drivers posted once that people were saying made the touch pro run better. Anyone ever look into this?
i'm from Diamond forum, but totally get what you're all saying here
I had a great game on my Elf called Chain Reaction. It was brilliant for killing a short amount of time while waiting for something/someone.... One of my problems with the Elf was that it wasn't powerful enough to multi-task at anything, like listen to music whilst playing a couple of rounds of Chain Reaction. I can't tell you how p****d I was when I fired up my Touch Pro for the first time and it realised it couldn't even play that game with anything like a smooth frame rate, let alone do it whilst listening to music. Never before have I spent so much money on a product that promised so much but delivered such a weird mix of 'that's really cool' and 'that's so poor/unreliable'. I've been emailing HTC for a month now asking them for a replacement unit or a refund (over the GPS issue), and I still haven't had a single reply. LOL....
Ouzo said:
I had a great game on my Elf called Chain Reaction. It was brilliant for killing a short amount of time while waiting for something/someone.... One of my problems with the Elf was that it wasn't powerful enough to multi-task at anything, like listen to music whilst playing a couple of rounds of Chain Reaction. I can't tell you how p****d I was when I fired up my Touch Pro for the first time and it realised it couldn't even play that game with anything like a smooth frame rate, let alone do it whilst listening to music. Never before have I spent so much money on a product that promised so much but delivered such a weird mix of 'that's really cool' and 'that's so poor/unreliable'. I've been emailing HTC for a month now asking them for a replacement unit or a refund (over the GPS issue), and I still haven't had a single reply. LOL....
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Click to collapse
Just sent them an email myself. Hopefully enough people email them
so that we may get a proper update! Its ridiculous when I can barely run Quake 3 on this thing while my Viewsonic PPC runs it just fine!
And its not just about playing games either. The whole phone feels laggy..
Sorry to complain so much, but I paid good money for this thing..
And I like the design so much, I dont wanna return it just yet....
Coming from a Kaiser, and putting Elite RC1 on my Raphael, I was reasonably satisfied - until I got a G1.
Side by side is like pentium vs 486. My point being, they are running similar hardware, so I'm not sure the Qualcomm chipset is so crap after all.
I haven't seen any 3d accelerated stuff yet, but I know these devices are capable of great 3d gaming.
Indeed, as an Axim X50v owner I am dismayed at how immensely better it is in the graphics department, for a device so much older. HTC, Qualcomm or perhaps even a carrier needs to get off their hands and take care of the customers. Publicity may be one of the few tools we have, but I guess we might as well use it. Posting your displeasure here is as good an action as any, but take the time to comment or reply in any venue that you see these issues being discussed.
C'mon manufacturers/suppliers ... get those damn drivers out!
i do agree.
i began to get frustrated with my TP that i started thinking of selling it, there are alot of things that arent going well at all in its preformance, and since the thread is about preformance in general i have a bad experience with my TP laginess. and GPS for example my wife bought a diamond a couple of days ago, and some how her Diamond gets a fix in less than 30 seconds, my TP takes considerably longer. the device is really really laggy, i sometimes wonder it recieved my click or not when i touch the screen. and its video preformance is extreemly poor. i mean i have an XDA flame and a toshiba g900, i thought the G900 is a crappy phone but it has GoForce 5500 chipset with some driver update its video is becomming amazingly fast and smooth.
what makes me angry lets say is that im a WM fanatic and the company where i work distributed iphones on all of us to use in our business tasks, it was a surprise to be honest that the Iphone took over this market really wiered, but after testing it for a while its much faster than the TP and it scores much higher in all tests with a massive diffrence, the only WM phone that came near the Iphone is the Samsung omnia, i think i already know why. both are samsung CPUs i tested the samsung omina of my friend and i think the Omnia is the WM version of the Iphone.
THough HTC is the bigger sister in the smart phone world but she is letting her clients badly down with crappy drivers and sometimes crappy PDs.
best regards
Kevin
Hi everyone,
I was just wondering what are the fastest & most responsive VGA-screen PPC Phones out there (or coming by end 2009)? I quantify performance in terms of 2D graphics, and I've been using SPB Benchmark Graphics benchmark. Of course, one can always argue there's more than 2D graphics in terms of speed, but slow phones really pissed me off. I used to had a HTC Universal and that was a steaming pile of junk. Switched to HTC Hermes 2-3yrs back... and it's been barely tolerable.
Right now, I've only found 2 "fast" VGA PPC Phones - ASUS P565 and Samsung Omnia II. However ASUS P565 is a questionable VGA phone since it's screen is a puny 2.8" size (might as well get a ASUS P552W). Both have a graphics benchmark of around ~2500, which is quite sad since that's equivalent to the Eten M600 speed (ok it runs as a QVGA). Compare this to Samsung Omnia I (~5000) or the ASUS P552W (~11,000) both of which uses the slower Marvel 624MHz CPU, Monahans and Tavor generation respectively.
I read that Toshiba TG01 Snapdragon is coming soon, but are there any concrete benchmarks done on it?
So, does anyone know if there is any fast & responsive VGA PPC Phones out there? Or do we have to wait for Snapdragon, Tegra or Marvell's 1GHz CPU? Can we expect such CPUs to make VGA screened phones fast enough? Or should I just get the ASUS P552W which means giving up my QWERTY keyboard , and wait for another 2-3years?
Hi
I can think on Tosh tg01 that is already on sale as the fastest to this date (I believe)
On december some snapdragon tosh models will be launched! perhaps HTC also...
Other ones not so fast but also good options are:
Touch pro 2
Hero
Acer M900?
YOu cannot treat a processors MHz as the be-all-end-all. Its an indicator and nothing more. You cannot compare processor speeds across diferent manufacturers either.
And no matter how fast the processor, if the drivers/design around it is sh*t, the phone will suffer greatly. A good example of this, Acer Shell to access contacts can be a little slow, SPB Shell however, is instant.
You can only compare by running the same app performing the same task on each phone. Benchmarks try to do this but can become far too specific at times. Again, they are a (good) indicator but not the be-all-end-all.
On a side note, I have an m900 and if you turn off Acer Shell (coz it sucks!) it is VERY fast.
When you want speed, why do you need speed exactly? Are you talking about accessing contacts etc? Are you talking about screen orientation or maybe playing games?
Your best bet is try and get hold of devices, install the required game/software and THEN see how responsive it is.
Monty Burns said:
YOu cannot treat a processors MHz as the be-all-end-all. Its an indicator and nothing more. You cannot compare processor speeds across diferent manufacturers either.
And no matter how fast the processor, if the drivers/design around it is sh*t, the phone will suffer greatly. A good example of this, Acer Shell to access contacts can be a little slow, SPB Shell however, is instant.
You can only compare by running the same app performing the same task on each phone. Benchmarks try to do this but can become far too specific at times. Again, they are a (good) indicator but not the be-all-end-all.
On a side note, I have an m900 and if you turn off Acer Shell (coz it sucks!) it is VERY fast.
When you want speed, why do you need speed exactly? Are you talking about accessing contacts etc? Are you talking about screen orientation or maybe playing games?
Your best bet is try and get hold of devices, install the required game/software and THEN see how responsive it is.
Click to expand...
Click to collapse
Easier said than done, I would love to have a try out by to replicate real-life performance one has to install all the apps one normally use, so it's not practical unless you have a dozen friends with different PPC Phones. While benchmarks aren't perfect, I don't see anything better to replace it. Sure, there is software optimizations and driver stuff, but if it sucks... no matter how much you cook your ROM and optimize, it sucks.
Take for example HTC Universal. That is one slow piece of junk. No matter how much optimization you do, you're not going to beat say the current HTC Hermes that I am using in terms of responsiveness. Another example is the last 1-2 yrs of HTC <Insert Model> running Qualcomm CPUs. So many users have reported the unbearably slow speed, and it doesn't help that many of them come with VGA resolution screens. Almost all evidence point to date that VGA phones are slow and crappy... and I was wondering if technology has advanced the point whereby this can be rectified.
Speed? It's the most importing thing when dealing with PPC Phones. For many years now, I the name Pocket PC is a real misnomer, as previous generation and maybe even current generation of phones acts in no way like a real personal computer.
What is acceptable? Fast 2D graphics. Instant response when I click on something, as I was using a laptop. No lag. No lag when rotating the screen. Faster loading of webpages instead of waiting for ages... and then it crashes. And btw I use Phone Weaver, Pocket Plus and SPB Diary on my Today screen, which makes it more taxing on the 2D system. Sure the HTC Universal with a fresh install can rotate screen in 1-2 seconds when optimized, but load in all my Today plugins it takes like 10-20 seconds!
Next comes fast 3D graphics and the ability to play movies. Right now my HTC Hermes can't play normal sized video files, i.e. 640x480, XVID/DIVX. Of course you can always recode with a lower res, but what's the point? It's all extra work.
Ronnie,
Have you thought about doing the 128MB memory upgrade, and overclocking the CPU on the Universal? May help things a bit.
Some other devices that may be faster:
Xperia X1
Acer F1
02 XDA Flame
Asus P835
Here is a site that test floating point and OGL performance in smartphones. Donot know how legit it is however.
http://www.glbenchmark.com/latest_results.jsp?benchmark=glpro
Most certainly don't look to HTC.
e.g. Kaiser - even if the CPU/GPU supports faster performance, they don't deem that necessary and don't include the required drivers.
The video 'hack' to speed up 2-D performance for the Kaiser proves that there are even more inefficiencies/missing drivers for that HTC phone.
I would suggest that the new Acer Tempo range and new Samsung Omnia's are a good way to investigate. Both these brands are selling the fact that there chips have built in 3d graphics and I believe the Samsungs even come with a free 3d game - could be wrong though. Either way, you wouldnt sell the fact you have a 3d games capability if you haven't programmed proper 3d drivers - something HTC have never really done afaik.
Again, the Acers are only showing a 528mhz (something like that anyway) but don't be fooled by a mhz rating. For example, just because a snapdragon is showing a 1ghz processor doesn't means its faster than a 528mhz Samsung... if you use google you will find plenty of winmob experienced people that feel its not as fast as it should be.
edit: Im sure the Samsung Omnia II's come with a Need For Speed Variant?
Hi! Reading around the web I've found out that Android still lacks of hardware acceleration in the windows' contents (enabled for compositing) and so does, of course, the browser (in the specific)! This is why we have not an as smooth as iPhone scrolling/zooming! Here an interesting article:
http://connect-utb.com/index.php?op...z-cpu-is-enough&catid=36:technology&Itemid=67
And here is a question made to a developer by an AndroidCommunity user:
http://androidcommunity.com/forums/f41/the-hardware-acceleration-question-8963/index2.html
So my question is: Will be possible to have hw acceleration (also on cooked roms, doesn't matter) in the near future? I still can't understand why, for example, my Hero cannot handle games like NOVA altough has a dedicated GPU and its CPU is quite superior to the iPhone 3G's one! While on this one the game runs smoothly! My supposition was that these games are not even developed thinking about Android...They only are miserable portings from iPhone! Please tell me that one day (maybe with 3.0) will be possible to have Flash 10.1, great 3D (or at least comparable to 3G) and COMPLETE acceleration in Android on my Hero and other MSM 7XXX devices (dream, magic ecc.) I'm really thinking of selling my Hero to buy something like a Milestone (Droid in US) or a Liquid (not sure about this one)...Thanks in advance
Surely they did this in an attempt to save battery life?
Maybe that's where OpenCL comes in?
Well I don't know how much hardware acceleration can damage battery life...I'm pretty sure this doesn't happen on other devices with iOS or WinMo where hw acc. is enabled And battery lasts normally!
About OpenCL I'm not sure it has something to do with graphics enhancements! Maybe it's used to accelerate computational stuff like physics...Or, at least, this is what I can read from here (it uses GPU to enhance NON graphical computing):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenCL
What I'm talking about is to enable acceleration in UI and browser (as well as has been done with 3D graphics and videos with SnapDragon and Cortex A8) like iPhone did! And I think this wouldn't decrease so much battery life! I prefer to have a functional and smooth browser more than save 1-2 hours of battery life! IMHO! Thanks to have answered my question
Just a little up! Thanks!
There is no hope for the msm72xx. Qualcomm or Htc or both of them are complete douches to us power users that want the max out of our devices. They do not provide efficient graphics drivers hence the horrible graphics performance. This is highly unlikely to change in the future and it seems to me that in order to compensate for sluggish graphic performance, they are upping the processor speed as seen by the recent slew of snapdragon 1ghz which also underperforms due to lack of proper drivers.
Gosh... This means that not even Google took care of developing proper drivers fot ITS OWN DEVICE! This is pretty bad...And means that Android could be a "poor" OS because of the laziness of some developer...I'm wondering if is convenient to buy an Acer Liquid (very low price here! And I can't afford a N1 or a Desire) or an iPhone 3G at all! Games like NOVA run GREAT on both of them...And I'd really want a smooth browser...But I'm pretty sure on one thing: My Hero needs to be replaced It made me too much disappointment...
Thanks for your answer
Yes your hero is an outdated mid range device that needs to be replaced...i would suggest a samsung galaxy S or any of its variants.
Thanks but...Who's going to give me the money to do that? XD I can't afford a Galaxy S (549€ here!) while an Acer Liquid (with the same performance of a N1 and I know what I'm saying ) is WAY more affordable (299€! Almost half of the Galaxy S price!).